Another "Blame America" problem....

[F1_Master]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/27/canada.crime.ap/index.html

Just read it. Canada is blaming the United States for a shooting in Toronto and claiming they are turning into America.


Yep, we surely are dangerous bunch. To quote a friend

Yeah, streets in American cities are sooooooo dangerous. It's a wonder any of us ever leave the house with impending death waiting outside :rolleyes:

[Dino Scuderia]

Yeah, Americans made those people commit murders....brilliant logic.

[Matra et Alpine]

Where did the social influences come from ?
Where did the easy accessability of guns come from ?

the quote seems to suggest guns are UP and half are coming from the States :D


Sounds like they've got areas of disenfranchised kids letting loose. Hmmm another "export" ?? This time rampant untethered capitalism ????


In all likelihood tho, I reckon this is just one of many anti-US things that will be seen from Canada after the way the lumber issue is being ignored by thte US !!!

Yeah, Americans made those people commit murders....brilliant logic.
The article didn't say THAT, so bad logic :D

[PerfAdv]

Of course the guy could have done him in with a heavy frying pan but the issue is guns. How easily they're acquired.

[lightweight]

Watching the "Bowling For Columbine" documentary might shed some light.

My opinion is that the US culture is a "macho" culture. Male gender traits are more on the "macho" side compared to other countries.

Also American culture influences other countries through cultural exchange paths such as press, cinema, internet etc.

So, Canada, like other countries is influenced from this "macho" culture.

This doesn't mean that the U.S. is responsible for something that happens in Canada. Each country should deal with its own problems. Blaming others is the easy path.

P.S. I use the term "macho" culture not in a bad way. I just want to stress the masculine traits.

[my porsche]

Watching the "Bowling For Columbine" documentary might shed some light.

My opinion is that the US culture is a "macho" culture. Male gender traits are more on the "macho" side compared to other countries.

P.S. I use the term "macho" culture not in a bad way. I just want to stress the masculine traits.
i agree that in GENERAL thats true, however it is mostly in rural areas

hell probably half the men in my neighborhood get manicures, now thats not macho

[kingofthering]

Americans tend to treat canada as its bitch and i guess it is revenge. I wonder who will the U.S. blame? The french? The other countries that don't agree with their policies?

[my porsche]

just out of curiosity, do you live in Canada?

[kingofthering]

Nope im californian

[my porsche]

hmm...you certainly are a little more hostile than most californians iknow :p

[F1_Master]

Americans tend to treat canada as its bitch and i guess it is revenge. I wonder who will the U.S. blame? The french? The other countries that don't agree with their policies?
Hardly.

Paul Martin is running in a current campaign and thinks blaming America will help him.

[NSXType-R]

Just because you have problems that you can't deal with you shouldn't blame other people just for the sake of it.

[Wolf03]

Finally...Canada is doing something right.

I support it...more proof against idiots who think Canada is the same as the US. It's true though. The streets of Toronto used to be safe unlike big American city streets. I mean Prime Minister Paul Martin is right, you don't expect this kind of stuff from Canadians and it is very surprising...then again if this would happen in an US city, it wouldn't be a big suprise.

[h00t_h00t]

Watching the "Bowling For Columbine" documentary might shed some light.
The South Park movie has more truth in it that crap.

I blame Canada, because a film told me to.

[scottie300z]

I think canada should move if they dont like their neighbors.....

but in all seriousness, maybe they should just tighten up their borders to keep the guns from coming in.

and then there is this issue:


John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, says the number of guns smuggled from the United States is a problem, but that Canada has a gang problem -- not a gun problem -- and that Canada should stop pointing the finger at the United States.

"It's a cop out. It's an easy way of looking at one symptom rather than addressing a whole disease," Thompson said.

[my porsche]

on the other hand we could say that canada is making more people in america smoke pot, it woudn't be true, but we could say it.

[h00t_h00t]

My god, are you Michael Moore? :eek:

[QuattroMan]

Americans tend to treat canada as its bitch and i guess it is revenge. I wonder who will the U.S. blame? The french? The other countries that don't agree with their policies?
If you acted like a b!tch!you will be treated like a b!tch.

[Matra et Alpine]

on the other hand we could say that canada is making more people in america smoke pot, it woudn't be true, but we could say it.
or that they're shipping too much timber and so tariffs are needed to "protect" American lumber companies and let 100,000 workers in Canada lose their jobs ? Yeah Canada MADE GWB place illegal tarriffs :D

[my porsche]

My god, are you Michael Moore? :eek:
me? surely you're joking? :eek:

did you michael moore claims he doesn not own a single share of stock but in fact owns HALIBURTON stock? my the hypocricies

[my porsche]

or that they're shipping too much timber and so tariffs are needed to "protect" American lumber companies and let 100,000 workers in Canada lose their jobs ? Yeah Canada MADE GWB place illegal tarriffs :D
when did this happen? and how did people lose their jobs

[Matra et Alpine]

when did this happen? and how did people lose their jobs
The word "let" is used in the potential.
100,000 was a figure quoted as the jobs at risk if the Canadian soft lumber shipments contineu to be illegally tariffed.
As America takes something like 90% of the output then if it isnt' bought there's no point paying people to cut it :(

You've seriously NOT heard about this ?
Wow, THAT is scary. Tariff and protectionism usually gets headline news in most countries !! ( :) It's not FOX NEws you watch by any chance ?? :) )
it goes back a long time I had to google to find when .... http://www.bclumbertrade.com/_images/bob_opinionColumn.pdf

It was taken to teh WTO and tried to be resolved within NAFTA - but with little success.

The issue was an improvement in Canadian logging and more (I think) the weakenign of the Canadian dollar meant that Canadian softwood was some 10% cheaper than US producers could achieve and so tarrifs were applied.

The US trade folsk investigated it under NAFTA and said it was right. It was sent to WTO who said the US investigation was flawed and WRONG.

[QuattroMan]

or that they're shipping too much timber and so tariffs are needed to "protect" American lumber companies and let 100,000 workers in Canada lose their jobs ? Yeah Canada MADE GWB place illegal tarriffs :D
WOW!!! 100,000! I was just wandering,how many people would of lost there jobs here if U.S did not stop lumber coming in?that is a lot of people with no jobs, I feel for them...

[Matra et Alpine]

WOW!!! 100,000! I was just wandering,how many people would of lost there jobs here if U.S did not stop lumber coming in?that is a lot of people with no jobs, I feel for them...
Going back to teh last point raised.
"let" is a potential and the 100,000 was an industry quoted figure of those workign in the industry. It would be unliekly for them ALL to go IMHO as there are other markets just not at such profitable prices perhaps :D
The US has been getting BILLIONS of dollars in these tarriffs which shoudl be returned to the Canadians. But the longer it takes then the more hardship and job losses there are. This is why there are intenrational agreements on handling tarrif complaints. Shame NAFTA seems to run by differnet rules ????

[my porsche]

Going back to teh last point raised.
"let" is a potential and the 100,000 was an industry quoted figure of those workign in the industry. It would be unliekly for them ALL to go IMHO as there are other markets just not at such profitable prices perhaps
so 100,000 isnt anywehre near the actual figure is it?

no i watch ABC as i think they are the only fair sided network

[Matra et Alpine]

so 100,000 isnt anywehre near the actual figure is it?
Well it depends on how long it went on for and how bad it got and how much shipping costs continued to go through the roof ( ANY other market for Canada is a VERY long ship journey away :) )

But, yeah, the 100,00 is WAY too pessimistic and ranks up there with claims of WMDs :D

[Newbomb Turk]

Yup, it's all our fault. Has nothing to do with the person who actually pulled the trigger being held responsible for their own actions. Nope, can't have that. Must place the blame somewhere, anywhere except with the actual party responsible. :rolleyes:

[F1_Master]

Hmm, in a way, I guess it is like the US.
Here, we can't blame kids for shooting, we must blame Video game makers.
We can't blame the woman for spilling coffee on her lap, we must blame McDonalds.

Please, at least in our country, we didn't blame another country.

"Let's not blame a video game company for a shooting, that would look stupid. Let's blame the US."

[Matra et Alpine]

Please, at least in our country, we didn't blame another country.
:cough: 9/11 ... Iraq :cough: :(
Steel making ... Europe
Pollution .... third world

[F1_Master]

:cough: 9/11 ... Iraq :cough: :(
Steel making ... Europe
Pollution .... third world
I'll give you the other 2. But weren't the people that caused 9/11 in Iraq?
So, I could see where the suspection that it was Iraq could have come from.

But these are major events, (though I never heard of the Europe being the cause of Steel Making) this is a "small" shooting compared to those.

1 man shooting at 6 people has never been an "out of the blue" deal since shootings have happened everywhere. And I've never heard once that a shooting in my state or any other state was the cause of another country.

Canada is just being stupid. Maybe next time when we bust a big drug exchange, we can blame it on Canada or when we find a bunch of kids with porn that are underage.:rolleyes:

[Jack_Bauer]

I'll give you the other 2. But weren't the people that caused 9/11 in Iraq?So, I could see where the suspection that it was Iraq could have come from.



Oh my....

[werty]

who cares...its Canada

go ahead and stereotype me over the internet, I want to see anyone of you do it to my face in person

[Matra et Alpine]

who cares...its Canada

go ahead and stereotype me over the internet, I want to see anyone of you do it to my face in person
Next time I'm in Arizona I promise to look you up :D

I'll take on racists ANYWHERE I find them -- is THAT what you are suggesting you are ??

PS: AND I have - including doing it to Afrikaaners in South Africa - widely told by everyone involved that I was likely to get shot !!!!!

[werty]

Next time I'm in Arizona I promise to look you up :D

I'll take on racists ANYWHERE I find them -- is THAT what you are suggesting you are ??

PS: AND I have - including doing it to Afrikaaners in South Africa - widely told by everyone involved that I was likely to get shot !!!!!
i'm not racist, im anti whiner's

people who blame another country for a shooting is ridiculous, they need to accept responsibility for themselves, good luck in arizona old man;)

[my porsche]

Next time I'm in Arizona I promise to look you up :D

I'll take on racists ANYWHERE I find them -- is THAT what you are suggesting you are ??

PS: AND I have - including doing it to Afrikaaners in South Africa - widely told by everyone involved that I was likely to get shot !!!!!
i dont like racists either, but canadian isnt a race :p

["Clevor" Angel]

Yup, it's all our fault. Has nothing to do with the person who actually pulled the trigger being held responsible for their own actions. Nope, can't have that. Must place the blame somewhere, anywhere except with the actual party responsible. :rolleyes:

One of the only smart things said in this entire thread.

[PininfarinaPIMP]

If its an American that did it, well, what the **** are you argueing about???. Second, they have every justified right to use a statement like that. Canada has the same amount of gun owners as America and has nowhere near as many gun deaths, America has more gun deaths than entire continents...

[QuattroMan]

i dont like racists either, but canadian isnt a race :p
You're wrong bro,,,they are Indian's you know from Fareast!LOL!:)

[Spastik_Roach]

You're wrong bro,,,they are Indian's you know from Fareast!LOL!:)

Has your I.Q ever passed double digits?

And in response to your first post

Yeah, shit Canada use common sense, I mean WTF only pussies think!! :rolleyes:

[my porsche]

If its an American that did it, well, what the **** are you argueing about???. Second, they have every justified right to use a statement like that. Canada has the same amount of gun owners as America and has nowhere near as many gun deaths, America has more gun deaths than entire continents...
that would be because the wrong people own guns in america, gangsters, inbreds etc.

and i would doubt that they have any where near as many, theres only 33 million in the whole country, theres 29 million in my state alone...it just cant be possible, unless you mean registered gun owners, which would exclude criminals and gangsters, so in that case they might have closer to ours

[F1_Master]

If its an American that did it, well, what the **** are you argueing about???. Second, they have every justified right to use a statement like that. Canada has the same amount of gun owners as America and has nowhere near as many gun deaths, America has more gun deaths than entire continents...

Even if an American did it, it's still stupid as hell to blame the US. We're not all responsible for 1 dumbass' idiocy. Hell, if that were true, Europe would most likely be giving us sh*t right now.

If a Canandian killed someone over here, we wouldn't say, "Canada is to blame!" We'd try the criminal and charge his ass, or send him back to Canada if they requested it.

And like MP said, we out weigh Canada probably by 4-6 times more in population. And because we have more gun deaths, I guess that automatically made that guy go and kill that little girl, right?

Your logic is stupid. I already explained it before. Paul Martin was the original person who blamed America for the shooting to help get votes in his upcoming election.

[PininfarinaPIMP]

Guns in general. Canada has as many gun in their country as the US has in its, but Canda has NOWHERE NEAR as many gun deaths as the US. I completely believe the reason for gun crime increase in Canada is because more Americans are moving there. Youve got to remember, America is the land of Rambo movies, one man taking out and entire army of commie hippies. Half the time the people who own a gun for protection end up shooting a relative or themselves. Give me a ****ing break F1, the only reason they wouldnt blame anyone here is because they know their gun crime is ridiculous. The US doesnt outnumber the entire continent of Europe and Europe doesnt have the kind of gun crime you do...

[F1_Master]

I was talking about Canada's population against the US', and my comment about Europe was that if your logic of an American guy was right, Europe would probably be blaming us too.

And are you seriously bringing in this whole "Saw it on a movie, will do it in real life" bullsh*t?
That's stupidest d*mn thing I've ever heard.

It's shooter's fault the child is dead. No movie held a gun to his head and told him to kill the girl. Nobody elses.

This guy chose to kill her, thus it is his fault. Not America, not Canada, no one but his.

[Matra et Alpine]

i dont like racists either, but canadian isnt a race :p
You best never travel to Quebec :D

[Matra et Alpine]

who cares...its Canada

go ahead and stereotype me over the internet, I want to see anyone of you do it to my face in person
Looks liek I made the connection above and it's not what you meant. Sorry.

[Matra et Alpine]

And are you seriously bringing in this whole "Saw it on a movie, will do it in real life" bullsh*t?
That's stupidest d*mn thing I've ever heard.
You DO know that if a parent brings their child up with love and cuddles and affectino then that child MOSTLY will be lovign and caring.
If a child is brought up in an abusive relationship then THAT child has a higher risk of being abusive to their friends and own family.

The mom/dad aren't their forcing the kid to hit HIS own kid ( or cuddle it ).

Some things are built into our basic psyche and whilst the connection isnt' provable and shouldn't carry ALL the burden, ignoring its influence is stupidity of the higest order.

HAven't you guys had ANY "slap happy" mobile phone camera events ? Now THERE is somethign passed on by "being cool" :(

[F1_Master]

It doesn't matter if the kid is good or bad, no movie forced a person to kill another person. A parent may influence a kid because their his parent, but a movie? Ridiculous.

And one day, the wrong person is going to be happy slapped, and said victim's going to pull a weapon out and injure the happy slapper.

But knowing our country, when and if that happened, the victim would be prosocuted for shooting the happy slapper.:rolleyes:

[Matra et Alpine]

It doesn't matter if the kid is good or bad, no movie forced a person to kill another person. A parent may influence a kid because their his parent, but a movie? Ridiculous.
why ?

you accept that exposure to a PARENT can make a difference so WHY do you suppose exposure to a movie or cultural genre wouldn't ??

[scottie300z]

why ?

you accept that exposure to a PARENT can make a difference so WHY do you suppose exposure to a movie or cultural genre wouldn't ??

mabye b/c parents have a larger impact on the childs life as they normally have more exposure than a 2 and a half hour movie. nobody is raised by a movie.

[F1_Master]

why ?

you accept that exposure to a PARENT can make a difference so WHY do you suppose exposure to a movie or cultural genre wouldn't ??
Because a parent can force the child.

A movie can not.

[my porsche]

Guns in general. Canada has as many gun in their country as the US has in its, but Canda has NOWHERE NEAR as many gun deaths as the US. I completely believe the reason for gun crime increase in Canada is because more Americans are moving there. Youve got to remember, America is the land of Rambo movies, one man taking out and entire army of commie hippies. Half the time the people who own a gun for protection end up shooting a relative or themselves. Give me a ****ing break F1, the only reason they wouldnt blame anyone here is because they know their gun crime is ridiculous. The US doesnt outnumber the entire continent of Europe and Europe doesnt have the kind of gun crime you do...
1)move to canada if you hate america/love canada so much
2)what do you mean europe doesnt have as much crime as "you" do..your one of us, unless colorado is a country somewhere else as well as a state

[my porsche]

You best never travel to Quebec :D
ok, the french, ill give you that, but wasnt the story in toronto?

[F1_Master]

1)move to canada if you hate america/love canada so much
2)what do you mean europe doesnt have as much crime as "you" do..your one of us, unless colorado is a country somewhere else as well as a state
MP, there's no point in replying. His stupidity got him banned.

[Rockefella]

MP, there's no point in replying. His stupidity got him banned.
Yep, that was enough of him. The Mod team tried repeatedly to warn and control him, but to no avail. Wouter just perma'd him.

[my porsche]

MP, there's no point in replying. His stupidity got him banned.
hahaha he's banned AGAIN? hahahah this makes my day, i was sick of him, it really is sad if thats your like, cussing people out on an internet forum :( :D

yeah hes not worth it

[Matra et Alpine]

mabye b/c parents have a larger impact on the childs life as they normally have more exposure than a 2 and a half hour movie. nobody is raised by a movie.
But can be influenced :)

Anyway never said ONE MOVIE.
I talked about cultural influence which is MUCH more pervasive and subtle :(

[Matra et Alpine]

Because a parent can force the child.
A good parent NEVER forces a child, leading by example the child experiences :D

A movie can not.
See previosu reply :D

[F1_Master]

A good parent NEVER forces a child, leading by example the child experiences :D

See previosu reply :D

But the movie is still not forcing him. It may have influenced him like a bad parent, but it never told him too.

If a parent tells a kid to do it, and the kid tells police his parent told him to, the parent can be tried as well.

But let's see 'em do that with a movie.
"Bruce Willis, you're on trial for killing bad guys in a movie."
Willis-"WTF?"

[QuattroMan]

1)move to canada if you hate america/love canada so much

i wish they would,why live in a country if you think that is not good enough for you,pack your sh@t and move!IMO!

[Fleet 500]

Yep, that was enough of him. The Mod team tried repeatedly to warn and control him, but to no avail. Wouter just perma'd him.
How about the Mod team sending a warning to Matra? Who has, within the span of only a few days, posted these remarks directed to me:
- Idiot
- Dumb
- Pea-sized brain
- Liar
- Lying b----
- A-hole

Really, guys, Matra has really gone over the top. If there was a "report post" icon (which other message boards have) I would have reported Matra's posts many, many times. I've been debating with henk4 at the same time, yet he behaves like a gentleman. Matra should be expected to do the same.

[spi-ti-tout]

If there was a "report post" icon (which other message boards have) I would have reported Matra's posts many, many times.
Not to take sides, but there's already one next to the "online" icon, way down your user name.

[Rockefella]

How about the Mod team sending a warning to Matra? Who has, within the span of only a few days, posted these remarks directed to me:
- Idiot
- Dumb
- Pea-sized brain
- Liar
- Lying b----
- A-hole

Really, guys, Matra has really gone over the top. If there was a "report post" icon (which other message boards have) I would have reported Matra's posts many, many times. I've been debating with henk4 at the same time, yet he behaves like a gentleman. Matra should be expected to do the same.
The only two Matra could be 'reported' on are the Lying b and the a-hole bits. I do understand it's OTT but you guys are in constant argument and represent yourself as mature adults so I feel there's no need for punishment.

[Zondaboy1]

Watching the "Bowling For Columbine" documentary might shed some light.
also the movie

Elephant
or something like that....
thats a good movie.
it's about the shootings in the school
kinda sad

[Fleet 500]

The only two Matra could be 'reported' on are the Lying b and the a-hole bits. I do understand it's OTT but you guys are in constant argument and represent yourself as mature adults so I feel there's no need for punishment.
Okay, then please send him a warning for those two.

It's obvious which one is not the mature adult here. I have NEVER sworn at Matra; while he uses swearing as almost a hobby. In other words, he breaks the rules of the board.

[Fleet 500]

Not to take sides, but there's already one next to the "online" icon, way down your user name.
Thanks, I didn't see that little thing!

[Matra et Alpine]

But the movie is still not forcing him. It may have influenced him like a bad parent, but it never told him too.

If a parent tells a kid to do it, and the kid tells police his parent told him to, the parent can be tried as well.

But let's see 'em do that with a movie.
"Bruce Willis, you're on trial for killing bad guys in a movie."
Willis-"WTF?"
That's the extreme so that you can get everyoen to agree.

Only an idiot would make that premise.

BUT we were talking about multiple influences from media and culture !!!
Look at all the idiots who copy break.com etc etc and tell me people aren't influenced by single media :D

[Matra et Alpine]

How about the Mod team sending a warning to Matra? Who has, within the span of only a few days, posted these remarks directed to me:
- Idiot
- Dumb
- Pea-sized brain
- Liar
- Lying b----
- A-hole

Really, guys, Matra has really gone over the top. If there was a "report post" icon (which other message boards have) I would have reported Matra's posts many, many times. I've been debating with henk4 at the same time, yet he behaves like a gentleman. Matra should be expected to do the same.
:cry: :sob: I want my mommy ......


tell you what Fleet PROVE you didnt' desrve those labels and I'll ban myself

especially the "lying blanket". YOU made a claim abotu me breaking a cardinal rule of forums and it was a blatant LIE and you NEVER responded on it and you NEVER apoligised. So you clearly dont want to face up to your LIES !!!!

[F1_Master]

That's the extreme so that you can get everyoen to agree.

Only an idiot would make that premise.

BUT we were talking about multiple influences from media and culture !!!
Look at all the idiots who copy break.com etc etc and tell me people aren't influenced by single media :D
My point is Matra, that media or not, no media forced him to pull the trigger. They may have "influenced" him, but it was his disicion.

He must be held responsible for the death. It was his choice, not the media's, and espcially not the United State's.

[h00t_h00t]

If a Canandian killed someone over here, we wouldn't say, "Canada is to blame!" We'd try the criminal and charge his ass, or send him back to Canada if they requested it.

So this rule came about AFTER four or so muslims crashed a couple of planes and you started attacking half the middle-east?

[F1_Master]

So this rule came about AFTER four or so muslims crashed a couple of planes and you started attacking half the middle-east?
Maybe we were actually trying to find out WHO did it.

And don't even compare 9/11 to a small shooting.

9/11=Terriost attack. We had every right to blame part of the middle-east, since the people who organized the attack were IN the middle-east.

This crap is just something Canada can't admit that it's own fault. If American guns are getting into their country, maybe the finger should pointed at the Border Patrol.

[Matra et Alpine]

Maybe we were actually trying to find out WHO did it.

And don't even compare 9/11 to a small shooting.

9/11=Terriost attack. We had every right to blame part of the middle-east, since the people who organized the attack were IN the middle-east.
That is the worst and sorriest excuse I've EVER heard.

So forget sovereign nation and international law, it's everybody in a big wide area to blame ?

Wow scary :(

THe comparison was made on a legal and analytical stance NOT on a quantity.
Personally I consider stealing one dollar equally as bad as stealing $1M.

[F1_Master]

That is the worst and sorriest excuse I've EVER heard.

So forget sovereign nation and international law, it's everybody in a big wide area to blame ?

Wow scary :(

THe comparison was made on a legal and analytical stance NOT on a quantity.
Personally I consider stealing one dollar equally as bad as stealing $1M.
Then what do you think we should have done?
Just sit on our asses, and say, "Hey, you flew a plane into a building and killed a bunch of people. No worry though, we'll just be the fat lazy ass Americans we are and do nothing."

[Matra et Alpine]

Then what do you think we should have done?
Just sit on our asses, and say, "Hey, you flew a plane into a building and killed a bunch of people. No worry though, we'll just be the fat lazy ass Americans we are and do nothing."
I'm well written in the annals of UCP what I think shoudl have been done.

International LAW should have been used to identify and track down and extradite the criminals.

The RIGHT people should have been tracked down rather than the easiest/best political targets.

NOT stomping over other nations sovereign rights and the American constitution would have helped too :D

Perhaps looking at how RoW handles terrorist attacks and the lessons learned over the centuries they've handled it might have been the best start !!

[Fleet 500]

YOU made a claim abotu me breaking a cardinal rule of forums and it was a blatant LIE and you NEVER responded on it and you NEVER apoligised. So you clearly dont want to face up to your LIES !!!!
You DID break a rule of the forums. Why should I apologize for your unacceptable behavior?

[F1_Master]

I'm well written in the annals of UCP what I think shoudl have been done.

International LAW should have been used to identify and track down and extradite the criminals.

The RIGHT people should have been tracked down rather than the easiest/best political targets.

NOT stomping over other nations sovereign rights and the American constitution would have helped too :D

Perhaps looking at how RoW handles terrorist attacks and the lessons learned over the centuries they've handled it might have been the best start !!
OK fair point.

But maybe we should get back on topic?
More news from Canada....



Prime Minister Paul Martin incorrectly blamed the United States for gun crime in Canada by using an unsubstantiated figure to assert that 50 per cent of this country's gun crimes involve smuggled firearms, U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins said yesterday.
Mr. Wilkins said that Canadian officials admitted in meetings with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice this week "that that figure was just grabbed out of thin air."...

The figure, which others have used previously, is not based on any statistical study that could be traced by The Globe and Mail, and police forces and other authorities said yesterday it is not verifiable.

"I know that figure of 50 per cent has been bandied about, but no one can substantiate that figure," said Staff Sergeant Paul Marsh, a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.


As noted Oct. 24, Martin's government says it is considering suing American gun manufacturers for failing to prevent the smuggling of their products across the border. (Campbell Clark, "Don't blame U.S. for gun crime, Canada told", Globe and Mail, Oct. 27).

Raising the question: did we do this during Prohibition to Canada's whisky distillers, when their products flooded into this country across both land and water borders? And if we didn't sue, could there be a lesson in that about the need for nations to respect each others' sovereignty?

Canada is looking into ways to sue U.S. gun manufacturers for the spread of illegal weapons into this country, the Toronto Star has learned....

The policy will also be seen as another shot by Prime Minister Paul Martin's government across the bow of Canada-U.S. relations.

Government sources told the Star yesterday that Canada will be looking into "every legal option" to stem a tide of crimes involving weapons that make their way into this country illegally from the United States, whether they're sold through the Internet or smuggled across the border.

That includes possible suits against U.S. manufacturers, launched either in the United States or in this country if the firm has assets here as well, the sources said. Though no precise estimates are available, Toronto police have said repeatedly that almost half the gun crimes committed in Canada involved illegal, U.S. weapons.


(Susan Delacourt and Les Whittington, Toronto Star, Oct. 22 (reg))

The sad part of all this is that said weapon was actually made in Canada...so, why should our gun makers take responsibility for a weapon that was built in the "victim"'s country?

[Matra et Alpine]

The sad part of all this is that said weapon was actually made in Canada...so, why should our gun makers take responsibility for a weapon that was built in the "victim"'s country?
Perfect example of "bad intelligence" being used by a politician to try to gain favour and power :D

Pretty stupid of them NOT to have checked up on the source of the numbers :)

ODD how the article then REPEATS the supposition at the end. So ARE the numbers correct but not provable ? It IS kind of difficult to count illegal movements :D

[Matra et Alpine]

You DID break a rule of the forums. Why should I apologize for your unacceptable behavior?

Proving that not only is logic missing, intelligence absent but no morality either.

At least you KNOW what to put on next year's letter to Santa. Shame we have to wait a year :(

[Coventrysucks]

You DID break a rule of the forums. Why should I apologize for your unacceptable behavior?

Self censoring?

Your pointless print-n-scan (you could just do This (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=263663&postcount=1)) you seem to have convienently cropped out the part that says: "This does not mean that lively and sharp discussions are no longer allowed".

I would consider it a personal attack against you if someone simply posted something like this:

"You are a complete ****wit son-of-a-*****, why don't you ****-off you****"

Not someone calling you a liar in the midst of yet another 200-post debate.

In the normal course of events, I cannot see a good enough reason for any of the moderators to ban Matra, so give up on the idea, you are wasting your time.

You may also direct your attention to the last sentance of that paragraph you quoted:

"Publicly suggesting the banishment of other people is also highly frowned upon."

Would you consider your own breach of that rule justifiable of a ban, just as you claim Matra's "attack" to be a just reason?

IF you do not agree with the way these forums are moderated and your "unfair" treatment, why do you persist in posting here?

IF you disagree with a member's attitude, why are 99.999% of your posts directed at that member?

[Matra et Alpine]

IF you disagree with a member's attitude, why are 99.999% of your posts directed at that member?

oh no ...... you didin't say THAT ........ oh dear, the flood gates will open now :D

[spi-ti-tout]

I cannot see a good enough reason for any of the moderators to ban Matra, so give up on the idea, you are wasting your time.
:eek: OMG I HAVE PROOF that OMG MATRA LIED!!!

dude, like, you know, I was looking at his, like, username, and like, it was written like he was banned or, like something. but he isn't like, banned, or something like that, so it's, like, a lie!

Tune in next time for the peace show :rolleyes: :p

[Matra et Alpine]

:eek: OMG I HAVE PROOF that OMG MATRA LIED!!!
tut tut tut

Dont' know the political speak trick of using words like "it seems" :D ????

Did I say I WAS banned ? nope ?? The trap caught another one :D

[F1_Master]

tut tut tut

Dont' know the political speak trick of using words like "it seems" :D ????

Did I say I WAS banned ? nope ?? The trap caught another one :D
I think he was just poking some funny at "BANNED AGAIN IT SEEMS!".

[Coventrysucks]

How do you know that "banned" is not just Scottish for "drunk" or something...

[Matra et Alpine]

I think he was just poking some funny at "BANNED AGAIN IT SEEMS!".
erm, spot the SMILEYS ???

When someone adds them then they are making a JOKE.

SOmetimes I think ther is only a finite amount of "intelligent thought" available per year and it looks like some have used it all up already :)

[F1_Master]

Well, lately, all your posts have contained a :D , debate or not.

[Matra et Alpine]

Well, lately, all your posts have contained a :D , debate or not.
for sure, I put them on sentences meant to raise a smile in the reader(s) to show it's meant to be HUMOUROUS.

Debates dont need to be devoid of humour !!

[spi-ti-tout]

Not the best start to a new year :(
Recent video -

What happend in Fallujah '04 by an Italian TV station
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/en/body.asp

Ouch ...

EDIT: M&A fixed the link

[Fleet 500]

Self censoring?

Your pointless print-n-scan (you could just do This (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=263663&postcount=1)) you seem to have convienently cropped out the part that says: "This does not mean that lively and sharp discussions are no longer allowed".

I would consider it a personal attack against you if someone simply posted something like this:

"You are a complete ****wit son-of-a-*****, why don't you ****-off you****"

Not someone calling you a liar in the midst of yet another 200-post debate.

In the normal course of events, I cannot see a good enough reason for any of the moderators to ban Matra, so give up on the idea, you are wasting your time.

You may also direct your attention to the last sentance of that paragraph you quoted:

"Publicly suggesting the banishment of other people is also highly frowned upon."

Would you consider your own breach of that rule justifiable of a ban, just as you claim Matra's "attack" to be a just reason?

IF you do not agree with the way these forums are moderated and your "unfair" treatment, why do you persist in posting here?

IF you disagree with a member's attitude, why are 99.999% of your posts directed at that member?
The comment was in jest about a ban being in Matra's future. I really don't expect him to be banned, since it seems he doesn't even get any warnings to control his hot temper.
In any case, you will agree that Matra has broken the "no personal attacks" rule many times?

My posts directed at him are to answer his replies or to post info he requests.

[Fleet 500]

Debates dont need to be devoid of humour !!
Debates don't need to be devoid of manners, either.

[Matra et Alpine]

Debates don't need to be devoid of manners, either.
WHen you DEMONSTRATE the most FUNDAMENTAL of manners and that is to LISTEN ( aka read in a forum ) THEN you can start to earn the points that will justify you being treated in a mannerly way.

You stilll don't even LISTEN to the MANY POINTS where you have switched and refused to return to points that you were caught being less than truthful over. When you DO then you dont' get the abuse. Funny you've not noticed the correlation yet --- oh NO it's NOT :)

[h00t_h00t]

How do you know that "banned" is not just Scottish for "drunk" or something...
They only have words for out of the ordinary things, like being sober.

[Matra et Alpine]

They only have words for out of the ordinary things, like being sober.
Guilty m'lud :D

[Fleet 500]

WHen you DEMONSTRATE the most FUNDAMENTAL of manners and that is to LISTEN ( aka read in a forum ) THEN you can start to earn the points that will justify you being treated in a mannerly way.

You stilll don't even LISTEN to the MANY POINTS where you have switched and refused to return to points that you were caught being less than truthful over. When you DO then you dont' get the abuse. Funny you've not noticed the correlation yet --- oh NO it's NOT :)
You want ME to demonstrate manners? LOL.

Yes, I listen to many points; it is you who refuse to accept much of what I post. Like in the photo below, saying that maybe it was "rigged." Come on, that's really irrational!

[Matra et Alpine]

You want ME to demonstrate manners? LOL.

Yes, I listen to many points; it is you who refuse to accept much of what I post. Like in the photo below, saying that maybe it was "rigged." Come on, that's really irrational!
erm, if you could actually have UNDERSTOOD how it was POINTED OUT HOW IT COUDL BE "biased" then you'd not have got yourself another nomination for the "Fleet award" !!!!

I actually wasted my time TRYING to explain it to you in simple enough terms for a KID to grasp and you clearly didnt'.

More fool you !!!!

[spi-ti-tout]

Checked out the video, Fleet?

[my porsche]

argh...i love how every single thread turns into matra vs. fleet

cant we just put aside the differences and celebrate the similarities? (i sound like the biggest hippy ever, yes, but its just getting very old)

[Fleet 500]

argh...i love how every single thread turns into matra vs. fleet

It wouldn't happen if Matra didn't challenge almost every single post I make.

[spi-ti-tout]

Fleet man, didja see the video?

[Spastik_Roach]

You want ME to demonstrate manners? LOL.

Yes, I listen to many points; it is you who refuse to accept much of what I post. Like in the photo below, saying that maybe it was "rigged." Come on, that's really irrational!

Haha, Fleet, you wrote the book on irrational!

You really should just give it a break about the "personal attacks" from Matra. He does use them rather sparingly and frankly i'd be saying alot worse, in his position. YOU JUST HAVE TO SOMETIMES ADMIT THAT YOU ARE WRONG. IT ISN'T HARD.

[Coventrysucks]

It wouldn't happen if Matra didn't challenge almost every single post I make.

It wouldn't happen if you didn't challenge almost every single post he makes... :rolleyes:

[Spastik_Roach]

It wouldn't happen if you didn't challenge almost every single post he makes... :rolleyes:

'xactly what I was thinking....

[Fleet 500]

It wouldn't happen if you didn't challenge almost every single post he makes... :rolleyes:
Almost always, it's when I post some specs or a photo which starts a debate with Matra.

[Fleet 500]

Fleet man, didja see the video?
Yeah, this "story" is months old. And the claim is full of inaccuracies and false info...

[Fleet 500]

Someone on another message board is very familiar with chemicals and posted this info...

[Matra et Alpine]

Right Fleet, YOU need to start making different threads if you're goign to post MORE cr@p.

Fine the US doesnt' classify Phosphourous as a "chemecal weapon" -- everyone else DOES.
IT's use is SEVERLY limited before that too.

You're "expoert" does an excellent job of saying what Phoshhourous doesn't do.
And he's right, but for some reason he MISSED that in the presence of moisture in clothes and on the skin ( it's called sweat - it happens to you if your neighbourhood is getting shot at ) then it EATS THE FLESH !!
Comparign it to a solidified mass on teh end of a stick with a SMOKE AGAIN shows how little he ACTUALLY knows about or is possibly HIDING from anyeon foolish enough to swallow his "mis information".


Sadly this one will have to go into NEXT years "Fleet award" competition. But I'm sure we'll get LOTS more before DEc 2006 :D

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah, this "story" is months old. And the claim is full of inaccuracies and false info...
Whose claim ???

A formerly classified (http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/) 1995 Pentagon intelligence document titled “Possible Use of Phosphorous Chemical (http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_22431050_91r.html)” describes the use of white phosphorus by Saddam Hussein on Kurdish fighters:

IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS. […]
IN LATE FEBRUARY 1991, FOLLOWING THE COALITION FORCES’ OVERWHELMING VICTORY OVER IRAQ, KURDISH REBELS STEPPED UP THEIR STRUGGLE AGAINST IRAQI FORCES IN NORTHERN IRAQ. DURING THE BRUTAL CRACKDOWN THAT FOLLOWED THE KURDISH UPRISING, IRAQI FORCES LOYAL TO PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE POPULACE IN ERBIL (GEOCOORD:3412N/04401E) (VICINITY OF IRANIAN BORDER) AND DOHUK (GEOCOORD:3652N/04301E) (VICINITY OF IRAQI BORDER) PROVINCES, IRAQ.
In other words, the Pentagon does refer to white phosphorus rounds as chemical weapons — at least if they’re used by our enemies.

The mil report at http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_22431050_91r.html
I'm happy to be told THAT is innacurate IF you can prove it :D

THAT is the problem with the blind-patriotism defence :( It usually trips the aggressors up !!!