Push for diesel

[SlickHolden]

http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,18234408-21822,00.html



22 February 2006

Mark Hinchliffe

Ford has unwittingly played its part in Holden's return to diesel passenger cars, which could include an oil-burning Commodore.

GM Holden surprised everyone when it announced at the Melbourne Motor Show last week that it would introduce an Astra diesel later this year.

The driving force behind Holden's decision came from executive director of product planning Ian Cleave.

"I've been a diesel campaigner for many years; ever since I drove my first modern-generation diesel. It was a Ford Focus when I was on holidays in France," he said.

"Ever since, I've pushed for Astra diesel and diesel generally.

"The opportunity was there that there was a competitive diesel from Vauxhall and Opel."

The Astra diesel will feature the 1.9-litre turbocharged diesel engine from the European Vauxhall and Opel Astras.

Cleave said the turning point was January 1 when diesel fuel sold in Australia was required to have a lower sulphur content.



"We feel that now that diesel fuel quality in Australia has been brought up to almost Euro levels the time was perfect to launch into the Australian market.
"We wanted to be the first mainstream brand in Australia to launch a diesel passenger car."

And a Commodore diesel may not be too far away, either.

"We've tested a number of engines in Australian conditions. We've had diesel Commodores running for two years now," Cleave said.

He said they had experienced no technical issues in testing except for fuel quality.

However, he said their research showed that diesel buyers were typically small car buyers with significantly higher incomes and high education standards.

"They are people who are technology savvy who are buying diesel not for fuel economy but for performance and the technology image factor," he said.

"They are typically younger people, but also empty nesters."

GM Holden boss Denny Mooney said he expected Astra diesel would represent about 10-12 per cent of the total, despite Volkswagen Golf and Peugeot 307 diesels now passing 50 per cent.

GM Holden's new executive director of sales and marketing, Alan Batey, said that when they asked dealers how many they thought they could sell "they asked for double the Astra diesels we felt we would need".

"We went back to them and said we will not accept those orders," he said.

"I am not going to set a sales target on the up side. It's not to grow volume, but to show technology.

"It will be positioned to be great value and we will see what happens; let's see if the demand is there."

He said that if demand was high, Holden was equipped to meet supply.

Cleave said the market potential for Astra would depend on the price of diesel fuel.

"As refineries' capacity in Asia is better aligned to demand then the price of diesel will be consistently slightly above petrol."

The Astra diesel will be launched later this year. No prices are yet set.

Batey confirmed that a diesel Commodore was inevitable. "Not at the launch but down the track at some time," he said.

"If there is a move toward it we will have our finger on the pulse and will be on to it."

[henk4]

finally somebody is seeing the light, strange that he had to travel to France for that.

I love the description of the diesel car driver....

[Matra et Alpine]

finally somebody is seeing the light, strange that he had to travel to France for that.....
Historically, not many rental diesels in the UK.
The fear of petrol going in the tank I suspect :D

[henk4]

Historically, not many rental diesels in the UK.
The fear of petrol going in the tank I suspect :D

like the amrican lady who rented a Citroen Xsara(?) and though it had an autobox and did everything in 1st gear....

[SLoppYJeeP]

I think the problem in America is that the low hp numbers of diesel engines turns off many car shoppers. Maybe audi will put some technology from the r10 into audis/vws to take care of that problem.

[coolieman1220]

in america, diesel is more expensive still. also diesel is still stereotyped as that loud, icky, trucker stuff. i'd buy a diesel. lots of torque more MPG. there are many pro's and cons. another problem is that diesel emits more harmful emmisions which i think the US wants to stay away from.

[Matra et Alpine]

old diesel, old cars, old technology is worse.

[Blue Supra]

i see it as a good thing. despite diesel being 10+ cents more expensive then petrol (or as much as the premium i fill up with :o ) itll do good to the image of little diesel cars.

i wouldnt buy something as big as a commodore in diesel but a little runabout would be cool.

dont BMW make a diesel 1 series?

[coolieman1220]

yeah i'd love a 1 series diesel. its fun in GT4

[Blue Supra]

i bought one over the normal petrol one, same power, more torque at lower revs...

why wouldnt you buy one?

[fpv_gtho]

i see it as a good thing. despite diesel being 10+ cents more expensive then petrol (or as much as the premium i fill up with :o ) itll do good to the image of little diesel cars.

i wouldnt buy something as big as a commodore in diesel but a little runabout would be cool.

dont BMW make a diesel 1 series?

On the contrary i would probably take a diesel if it was in a large car as opposed to a small car as i'd expect the gains over petrol to be more, given how much the low down torque would work. I suppose though if i wanted a small car and with an auto a diesel would be pretty noticeable...

[nota]

<< gets ready to overtake struggling $30k Astra diesel in the bigger, faster & cheaper to run Falcon LPG, also bought for $30k :p

[charged]

Id definitely buy a diesel again, I had the old low tech 3 litre TD in the surf(same engine as prado except no intercooler) that gave me great fuel economy when towing the boat or the race cars, the petrol version I have now has more power but when you tow something over a 1000kg, it loves a drink:eek:

[Blue Supra]

LPG is getting more expensive. its over 60c commonly now. if it hits 75c itll be the same price to run as a standard falcon due the LPG drinkn gas faster.

the goverments introducing the same sortof tariffs on LPG come 2008 (i think)so LGP will be pretty much pointless.

[nota]

LPG is getting more expensive. its over 60c commonly now. if it hits 75c itll be the same price to run as a standard falcon due the LPG drinkn gas faster.

the goverments introducing the same sortof tariffs on LPG come 2008 (i think)so LGP will be pretty much pointless.
Last time I checked prices LPG was 60c vs $1.24 for petrol. How much is petrol in your area? I'd be surprised if LPG wasn't still 45% less (except in Queensland)

At worst, LPG use is about 20% more than petrol. If in the unlikely event that LPG rises to 75c yet for some strange reason petrol does not rise but stays at present prices ($1.20 for arguments sake) then 75c + 20% = 90c which would still make LPG approx 30% [EDIT 25%] cheaper in real terms. Even a 30% saving on fuel is not inconsiderable imo

There’ll be no [LPG] excise before July 2011 and even then it will be introduced progressively over five years. The government will further support the LPG marketing effort with a $1,000 capital grant for those who buy a new dedicated or dual fuel LPG vehicle. The idea being to expand the on-road market for LPG and off-set the excise from 2011

[henk4]

<< gets ready to overtake struggling $30k Astra diesel in the bigger, faster & cheaper to run Falcon LPG, also bought for $30k :p

Struggling is not really the word to use here. Try one for proof:)

[henk4]

dont BMW make a diesel 1 series?

The 120d was actually the most powerful version until the six cylinder came along, but that is in a wholly different league.

[fpv_gtho]

The government will further support the LPG marketing effort with a $1,000 capital grant for those who buy a new dedicated or dual fuel LPG vehicle.

shit, last i heard Ford only charge $1400 for their LPG engine

[Matra et Alpine]

<< gets ready to overtake struggling $30k Astra diesel in the bigger, faster & cheaper to run Falcon LPG, also bought for $30k :p
hee-hee.
My sisters SKODA diesel is great fun at embarrassing the chavs with their K&Ns and fart cans and tuned engines, even a few Beemers get red-faced :D
The little Skoda diesel PULLS really fast 50-100 !!!
Watch out you might get egg on the front of the car :D

[SlickHolden]

You know what might make this little Astra quick that torque is big next to a Full size family car like a Commodore and Falcon.

[nota]

hee-hee.
My sisters SKODA diesel is great fun at embarrassing the chavs with their K&Ns and fart cans and tuned engines, even a few Beemers get red-faced :D
The little Skoda diesel PULLS really fast 50-100 !!!
Watch out you might get egg on the front of the car :D
No risk of that mate because new new car buyers here in Oz have access to a special local device you Europeans don't get to see. It's called The Cheap Fast Car

This empowering device enables us to safely outpower your delusory euro egg factor. Indeed we get to hurl a dark sticky goo back onto YOUR diesel dungers. And no this projectile plasma is not unburnt diesel nor is it even vegemite (far too sacred to waste)

So forget the eggs we've fried up something just for you. This gentlemen is molten rubber, an alien substance probably unknown to our two friendly euros but which comes as standard-equip on every Cheap Fast Car sold downunder. To demonstrate the delusion of diesel, here is a CFC in action. And not even a performance-oriented CFC, but a lowest-spec 6cyl from the mid-'90s (ie 25% less powerful than current 6cyl CFCs, let alone V8)

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=171034&d=1139328581

I'm wondering can the euro chefs cook up pics of a price-equal diesel similarly roasting up - or do you 'performance' dieselites only eat stew? :p

ps: half baked stew :D

[Matra et Alpine]

nota you forgot that the UK pretty much created the export market for the Monaro :)
I drove one and spent some track time with it.

You forget we are the land of the Lotus 7 copies and kit cars that are CHEAP and in many cases faster than a Ferrari :) and WAY faster than peolpe boxes :D . oh and putting two bike engines in to REALLY scare the sh!t out of you :D : D :D

... and yep the Skoda diesel is impressive even WITH all of that background !!!!

[nota]

You forget we are the land of the Lotus 7 copies and kit cars that are CHEAP and in many cases faster than a Ferrari :) and WAY faster than peolpe boxes :D . oh and putting two bike engines in to REALLY scare the sh!t out of you :D : D :D
I thought we were discussing regualr family cars, not rocket-propelled prams :confused:


nota you forgot that the UK pretty much created the export market for the Monaro :)
I drove one and spent some track time with it.

UK residents - Definitive:
A likeable yet lugubrious lot who still think they 'own' us, their main transport device is diesel dowagers

Creator of Monaro export market - Definitive:
Not UK but Holden of course .. with a little help from New Zealand ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

nota, WHERE was the Monaro MOST successful ?
The UK DRAGGED the numbers out of them according to teh Vauxhall guy :D

[clutch-monkey]

iirc they only sent 200 a year to the UK

[Matra et Alpine]

iirc they only sent 200 a year to the UK
They origianlly only planned 50 for the UK of the first gen but the UK pulled 250. All at a VERY healthy price :D
Not sure of numbers on the uprated one.
Will try to find them ......

BUT they NEVER sat on a sale forecourt. Every car could have been sold 3 times over :D
That was what I was meaning by successful.

[nota]

iirc they only sent 200 a year to the UK
Yep the Monaro was most successful in GWB-land, where they bought somehwre around 30,000 or so

[edit] I'd bet even NZ pulled more than 250 Monaros per year :D

[SlickHolden]

Matra is a fan of the Monaro. We should have sent more to the UK.
At least they liked it's looks:D

[Blue Supra]

the gas falcon i drive for work uses 15-18L per 100k

a normal falcon (exact same model/year) that my workmate drives gets 11-13L to 100k

using an additional say 5L per 100k of gas is $3. over a 70 odd litre gas tank over a 70L fuel tank. $3 per 5L of gas and the gas car gets maximum 400k from a tank so thats $12 a tank lost in economy. now that (to me) when you have to fill up 30-40% more frequently is not worth it. Given if it does go up to 70c its gets even worse.

No excise till 2011 is news to me. last i heard was 2008. mustve been pushed back.

[SlickHolden]

the gas falcon i drive for work uses 15-18L per 100k

a normal falcon (exact same model/year) that my workmate drives gets 11-13L to 100k

using an additional say 5L per 100k of gas is $3. over a 70 odd litre gas tank over a 70L fuel tank. $3 per 5L of gas and the gas car gets maximum 400k from a tank so thats $12 a tank lost in economy. now that (to me) when you have to fill up 30-40% more frequently is not worth it. Given if it does go up to 70c its gets even worse.

No excise till 2011 is news to me. last i heard was 2008. mustve been pushed back.
And what makes the dedicated gas BA bad..... No balls:p
WE had a go in a Ute and the territory was faster:D

[Blue Supra]

its not completely gutless. but that "sports shift" is a crock of crap.

its only useful for going downhill.

[SlickHolden]

Yeah that's true good for towing also.
It's nuts the shift press the button for sport faster shifts longer holds etc, Then stick it in fully man mode for the most fun. But after 4 min you forget and hate it:p

[Blue Supra]

yeh ive "redlined" (even though you cant in a falcon coz there isnt a redline :p ) it few times after putting it in then wondered why it wasnt changing :D

[fpv_gtho]

nota, WHERE was the Monaro MOST successful ?
The UK DRAGGED the numbers out of them according to teh Vauxhall guy :D
I believe that honour belongs to the Middle East, as outside the domestic region, they were the first to get exports, and probably happened very soon after the 2001 sale date.

[nota]

the gas falcon i drive for work uses 15-18L per 100k

a normal falcon (exact same model/year) that my workmate drives gets 11-13L to 100k

using an additional say 5L per 100k of gas is $3. over a 70 odd litre gas tank over a 70L fuel tank. $3 per 5L of gas and the gas car gets maximum 400k from a tank so thats $12 a tank lost in economy. now that (to me) when you have to fill up 30-40% more frequently is not worth it. Given if it does go up to 70c its gets even worse.

No excise till 2011 is news to me. last i heard was 2008. mustve been pushed back.
Sorry but I cannot see why (or how) using LPG is "$12 a tank lost in economy" :confused:

Even using the consumption figures you provided ..
13L/100 x $1.24 p/L = $64 of petrol to travel 400km
18L/100 x $0.60 p/L = $43 of LPG for 400km - an almost 30% saving on fuel

I have a typical test (Wheels) in front of me for petrol vs LPG acceleration:

Falcon
0-80km LPG is 0.1 slower
0-400m LPG is 0.1 slower
Economy L/100km
10.6<petrol vs 12.6 <LPG

Holden
0-80km LPG is equal
0-400m LPG is 0.1 slower
Economy
10.2<petrol vs 12.0 <LPG

[Blue Supra]

12 kays my arse! That thing doesnt get better then 15 and the falcon site confirms it! http://www.ford.com.au/landing/egas/technicalinformation.asp

A petrol falcon per tank = $81.60 at 1.20 a litre
a gas falcon (wagon, thats what we use) costs $71.40

A petrol falcon does 550 kays to a tank = $14.86 per 100klm
the wagon does 400(ish) to a tank =$17.85 per 100klm

petrol wins.

[nota]

Not according to your stated LPG figures of 18 litres per 100km, vs 13 litre per 100km for petrol

18 litres of LPG per 100km = 72 litres for 400km. 72 litres @ $0.60c per litre = $43 to travel 400km, agreed?

Yet you now claim it costs $71 to travel approx 400km which is absurd because $71 @ $0.60c per litre = 118 litres of LPG consumed per 400km

That equates not to your previous claim of 18L/100km but a miserable 29L/100km or 9.7 mpg which I have to say seems about as realistic as your other LPG 'facts'

So your claimed fuel consumption has almost doubled within two posts! Which fact are we to believe? There's an unmistakably large discrepancy between those two claims. Is the correct figure 29L/100 or 18L/100?? Are you making this up as you go along?

:confused:

[fpv_gtho]

Ford have this little toy to play around with on their site: http://ford.com.au/landing/egas/egascalculator.asp

Havent looked at it personally yet though, but might be worth a look. Biggest difference to whats being discussed here seems to be the comparison of km's covered on both fuels as opposed to mileage from a full tank

EDIT: ok now i have. Even though it says "km per year", stick in 400km and you get LPG costing about half as much as petrol. The trend continues over 550km. Go for a proper yearly figure, say 20000km's at 400km a week, and your saving $1200 a year for a $1400 option.

[McReis]

like the amrican lady who rented a Citroen Xsara(?) and though it had an autobox and did everything in 1st gear....

Personally I don't buy that story. If it was so, how did she managed the clutch?

[henk4]

Personally I don't buy that story. If it was so, how did she managed the clutch?

they push started her.....

[SlickHolden]

12 kays my arse! That thing doesnt get better then 15 and the falcon site confirms it! http://www.ford.com.au/landing/egas/technicalinformation.asp

A petrol falcon per tank = $81.60 at 1.20 a litre
a gas falcon (wagon, thats what we use) costs $71.40

A petrol falcon does 550 kays to a tank = $14.86 per 100klm
the wagon does 400(ish) to a tank =$17.85 per 100klm

petrol wins.
Dam how big is my tank:eek:, I just filled the bugger up cost me $82. $1.20 p/l.
They say a VP's tank is 63 litres:p Bullshit:p

[fpv_gtho]

Quick calculation puts it around 68L. Funny, considering thats what the Falcon has

[SlickHolden]

I once got a best of 69 litres to but average i get 67-68.
And when i was getting the muffler stuck on the rear i seen the tank had dents under it and they weren't small:D.

[nota]

12 kays my arse! That thing doesnt get better then 15 and the falcon site confirms it! http://www.ford.com.au/landing/egas/technicalinformation.asp

A petrol falcon per tank = $81.60 at 1.20 a litre
a gas falcon (wagon, thats what we use) costs $71.40

A petrol falcon does 550 kays to a tank = $14.86 per 100klm
the wagon does 400(ish) to a tank =$17.85 per 100klm

petrol wins.
Hey Blue_Supra

I've been patiently waiting around four days now for you to give me the courtesy of responding to the questions I put to you in my post #35 re fuel costings for the LPG Falcon wagon you claim to drive for work

Among the other already disproven crap you have written in this thread about LPG costs, in my post #37 I quite clearly exposed your post #36 (your above quote) as nothing more than a fabricated lie :mad:

In #37 I have shown why there is no way that an LPG Falcon will consume $17.85 of LPG to travel a mere 100km - despite you proclaiming in #36 that it does

Despite your pretences it's obvious that you have no idea about factual LPG running costs - especially for BA Fords. You have merely supplied more bodgy 'invented' figures in a (failed) attempt to keep up your disappearing credibility :rolleyes:

I have no idea why you've chosen to be a liar, both to me and to others who've read your deceptions. I don't take any pleasure in writing this, but I really do hate being lied to - and then ignored. I think an explanation is called for - don't you agree?

Until you do so your credibility with me is a big fat zero :mad:

Btw being a 'work' car your Falcon is required to have a logbook. All fuel & distances must be entered into that logbook - so you cannot pretend to be unfamiliar with the real fuel/distance figures. So what's the go here eh 'mate' ??

[Rockefella]

Hey Blue_Supra

I've been patiently waiting around four days now for you to give me the courtesy of responding to the questions I put to you in my post #35 re fuel costings for the LPG Falcon wagon you claim to drive for work

Among the other already disproven crap you have written in this thread about LPG costs, in my post #37 I quite clearly exposed your post #36 (your above quote) as nothing more than a fabricated lie :mad:

In #37 I have shown why there is no way that an LPG Falcon will consume $17.85 of LPG to travel a mere 100km - despite you proclaiming in #36 that it does

Despite your pretences it's obvious that you have no idea about factual LPG running costs - especially for BA Fords. You have merely supplied more bodgy 'invented' figures in a (failed) attempt to keep up your disappearing credibility :rolleyes:

I have no idea why you've chosen to be a liar, both to me and to others who've read your deceptions. I don't take any pleasure in writing this, but I really do hate being lied to - and then ignored. I think an explanation is called for - don't you agree?

Until you do so your credibility with me is a big fat zero :mad:

Btw being a 'work' car your Falcon is required to have a logbook. All fuel & distances must be entered into that logbook - so you cannot pretend to be unfamiliar with the real fuel/distance figures. So what's the go here eh 'mate' ??
Calm down now. :p

[Blue Supra]

settle...

ok. let me straighten a few things out including your knickers...

118L tank is what the LPG wagon is equipped with according to the ford website. i know from filling it up every now and again that it scores roughly 400 - 450klm per tank (maybe with a bit left in the bottem) do the math. No fabricated lies there.

now ford CLAIMS to get 15.9L/100klm from their egas system. maybe thats true in their test car but in a REAL LIFE scenario this wagon aint that good on the gas, maybe due to it constantly being full of computer crap and being driven with the air con (which is brilliant in this car) all the way up.

I havent intentionally been rude and forgive me for not flicking through every thread i ever posted in every time i come on UCP. i do more then browse the web in my day. like work full time... :rolleyes:

im willing to let it go and drop the subject. im over it.

go diesel power.

EDIT:

and there is no _ in my user name,

[fpv_gtho]

Ford in the past have listed the Egas's capacity as being 100+ L then also having in the fineprint only about 90 or so L are actually usable. Maybe theres a discrepancy there...

[nota]

settle...

ok. let me straighten a few things out including your knickers...

118L tank is what the LPG wagon is equipped with according to the ford website. i know from filling it up every now and again that it scores roughly 400 - 450klm per tank (maybe with a bit left in the bottem) do the math. No fabricated lies there.
http://www.exploroz.com/OntheRoad/FuelPrices/Default.asp

Thanks for the response but yeah I already did the math (for you) in post #37, and no you haven't 'straightened things out'

You stated the car burns a ridiculous $17.85 of LPG per 100km = an approx consumption figure of ..

29 litres per 100km or 9.7 mpg

That is so far out into fantasyland it isn't funny. I wasn't amused

[Blue Supra]

thats an interesting link. look at SA. a perfect pattern of rising and falling.

i gave my reasons for my consumption figures.

i know for a fact that that falcon is bouncing off empty at 450k. maybe there is something wrong with it? maybe we flog it too much (not usually but give it some stick now and then.) as FPV mentioned it could be that only 90ishL is usable which brings it down to roughly 18L to the 100k (which is within my previous claim.)

therin lies your answer.

[fpv_gtho]

Well Ford are still using the older style injection system which accounts for the option being half as much as competitors, although theyre rumoured to be developing a better system...

18L/100km for LPG would still be cheaper than 14L/100km for petrol though

[SlickHolden]

So in other words it would take years on Gas to save money.
Like the prius they say it would need to be driven 800,000km to save money because of the cost of it and the running cost.

[nota]

thats an interesting link. look at SA. a perfect pattern of rising and falling.

But you do not live in SA - you live in the same region I do, and we are both very familiar with local fuel prices .. at least I am

as FPV mentioned it could be that only 90ishL is usable which brings it down to roughly 18L to the 100k (which is within my previous claim.)

therin lies your answer.
So you are seriously suggesting that having a smaller (usable) fuel tank will increase fuel consumption?

I suppose small cars with small petrol tanks will use more fuel .. because they have small tanks ..??

For goodness sake man are you mental! :eek:

((sigh)) Yep I guess therein lies my answer .. :rolleyes:

[Blue Supra]

i was merely pointing out something interesting about petrol price "fluctuations." clearly i know about local fuel as i fill up 7 times a month :p

you completely missed the point. A smaller usuable amount of fuel decreases the fuel consumption equation. so instead of being calculated on 118L i calculated it based on 90L...

[nota]

i was merely pointing out something interesting about petrol price "fluctuations." clearly i know about local fuel as i fill up 7 times a month :p

you completely missed the point. A smaller usuable amount of fuel decreases the fuel consumption equation. so instead of being calculated on 118L i calculated it based on 90L...
So you're admitting in basic terms that you don't know how much fuel is going into this work car of yours

Does it fuel itself up? Does the logbook fill itself out? :confused:

The point is clear(ing): All you seem to know "for a fact" is the approx kms between fills - not the amount of fuel it consumes - therefore you have no idea of its consumption do you?

[SlickHolden]

i was merely pointing out something interesting about petrol price "fluctuations." clearly i know about local fuel as i fill up 7 times a month :p

you completely missed the point. A smaller usuable amount of fuel decreases the fuel consumption equation. so instead of being calculated on 118L i calculated it based on 90L...
When i drive heaps i fill up 5 times in 2 weeks:p Dam that powerful VP Commodore:D. I need to fix the fuel a little bit more now.
But I'm a disliker of Gas and Diesel,


Hey Hey a good thing happen to me the other day. I passed a car in the inside and as it went into 2nd it cherped the rear:p In love:D.
And it's bad side come out the other day when i rained very very heavy. Good tyres for the dry but wet shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhit. It was slipping and sliding all over the street i was spinning in a straight line @ 90kp/h. Now that's bad i was a little uncomfortable with it and so was the drivers behind me:p
Like this pic it was taken 10 min before the big storm hit and i was sideways and not wanting to be:( Would have been fun if i wanted to do it but not when it's forced upon you:rolleyes:

[fpv_gtho]

So in other words it would take years on Gas to save money.
Like the prius they say it would need to be driven 800,000km to save money because of the cost of it and the running cost.

Fords Egas calculator has it at 14 months if you do 20000km a year, which is only 400 a week

[nota]

In the last 12 months my wife's commute was 45,000kms

She averaged 55,000km in the two years before that in her last car which was an ancient but trusty Ford XF (basic carby, not multipoint EFI) dual-fuel 3speed auto that usually got 20-21mpg on LPG, or 14-13L/100

[fpv_gtho]

Sounds like alot of open road driving with that mileage and consumption

[nota]

Sounds like alot of open road driving with that mileage and consumption
Yes, we previously lived in the Monaro district & commuted to Canberra, now shifted to Tarago shire

From Monaro to Tarago .. hmmm :(

[Blue Supra]

Bungendore. the only road to anywhere is highway.

For the record. our logbook is what kays we do and from where to where. NO FUEL is recorded. only recording done is quoting the odometer reading when you fill up.

The amount of gas that goes in is consistent and the amount of kays it does is consistent. let me break it down to the barest level for you.

approx (give or take 5L) 90L of gas go in
between 400 - 450 kays come out.

[nota]

For the record. our logbook is what kays we do and from where to where. NO FUEL is recorded. only recording done is quoting the odometer reading when you fill up.
I've never seen a pump that doesn't record the amount of fuel it delivers ..


The amount of gas that goes in is consistent and the amount of kays it does is consistent. let me break it down to the barest level for you.

approx (give or take 5L) 90L of gas go in
between 400 - 450 kays come out.
Ok I'll accept that "approx" and "between" is the best you are capable of :) Thanks for that

Nevertheless 90 litres @ $0.62c per litre = under $56 for the LPG Falcon - hardly consistent with what you originally claimed below


A petrol falcon per tank = $81.60 at 1.20 a litre
a gas falcon (wagon, thats what we use) costs $71.40

A petrol falcon does 550 kays to a tank = $14.86 per 100klm
the wagon does 400(ish) to a tank =$17.85 per 100klm

petrol wins.
Btw 90 litres per 400km = an almost unbelievable 22.5L/100 or 12.5 mpg

Even this (the least economical of your current 'estimates') equates to $77 of LPG per 550km vs $81.60 for petrol

LPG wins :D

finis

[SlickHolden]

I think LPG looses in the power department towing uphills etc, That is why i don't like it.
My mate runs a VS Ute on Gas and it goes great, But towing he uses unleaded always.

[nota]

^^ Fair comment

There is a noticable loss of torque which is why it best suits large capacity donks with a surfeit of grunt like the V8s and big 6s. That way you can get 4cyl economy yet still enjoy traditional 'big car' performance & virtues

In contrast to the torque loss, once up and running at cruising speeds LPG usually require slightly less throttle opening than petrol. On gas, engine internals are kept much cleaner and they also run noticably smoother so they usually last longer

[SlickHolden]

I just can't stand the smell of them, I'm very easy set off with itches of all types from smells and things i got bad aliges:(.
I think people get over scared now a days with high fuel prices, Cars really are great on fuel now a days, Have a look at my car it runs 300km on a 68 litre fill-up. That's something to shit yourself about:p.

Hey anyone wanna Buy my sisters Proton Gen2:D It runs between 6.7lt and 8.8 lt average all the time;).

[Blue Supra]

^^^
i heard it breaks alot. :p

like i said earlier, im over the argument. but as a side note to the torque loss, ive been in a 4cyl 30yo corona on LPG and it wasnt too bad on the power/torque loss but had a horrible smell in it.

[SlickHolden]

Runs but has little issues of of dealers not fixing them:p
Goes great but is starting to age fast she is over it bad:D
When her car was shipped from Proton they didnt check them, Now they do. Pretty crap hey if holden or ford didnt check there just built cars they would sakc some people forsure:D

[Blue Supra]

how much does she want for it? ill be after a runabout in the next few months.

[SlickHolden]

$13500 i think?

[Blue Supra]

ah. bit more then i want to spend :D

ill be shopping like 3k and under :p its just to get me around while to 200 and datto are having their engines changed.

[SlickHolden]

She wants me to stick it on ebay but i told her people wont look on there for a proton, It's not a big name, People always look at the car and think what is that? They have some quality issues but lucky i guess proton still have to fix anything, She is still waiting for a thermostat:p 1 month now.

If it was my car mate i would give it to you for $9000;). That could buy me a nice VX Commodore:D

[fpv_gtho]

What year model is it, 13500 sounds a bit much. Checking here though

http://carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.dealer_results?category_id=1&selected_model=1&selected_region=0&search_type=20&make_id=28&model_id=4863&keyword=&state_id=-1&region_id=&search_postcode=&search_distance=25

she might sell it for that much

[SlickHolden]

It's a 2005 L-Line.
And it's got 17" rims:D
Here are a couple of pics.

[Blue Supra]

its a snazzy lookin car but this is more what ill be looking for:
http://www.pulsar.org.au/images/brochure_n13sss.jpg

prolly get a thousand buck thing i can piss off as soon as i get my cars back.

[SlickHolden]

Aren't your legs going to be sore in that:eek:

[Blue Supra]

i have more room in my GFs 94 pulsar then i do in my car... i should be ok, but basically im looking for a 1k car that i run around in for a month or two. i found a few interesting things like a 4.9L carbed falcon for $1600, a combi van for $1200... a turbo charade for $1600...

[fpv_gtho]

Go for the Charade!!!

[Blue Supra]

if i fit im keen!

[SlickHolden]

97 VS Calais. 3.8LT Supercharged engine:D
Grab yourself one of them Yella Terra blower kits bang you got 220kw+ And over 600Nm:eek: That would rock your jocks:p.

[Blue Supra]

i want something with UNDER 10L/100k mate ;)

not over 20L :p

[nota]

Advertised in the Canberra Times this weekend:

"Fairlane V8 auto, dual fuel, reg, good cond. $1800"

:p

[SlickHolden]

i want something with UNDER 10L/100k mate ;)

not over 20L :p
Yeah it will run under 10L on the freeway:D

[group c n b man]

I'd say that for most applications, diesel is the best choice. Well, the sensible choice. Modern diesels are normally faster and more economical than a petrol of the same size. Diesels have more aplications now than before, like in hot hatches and large luxury saloons. It is important to remember that diesel mainly benefits high mileage drivers who's annual fuel bill will be lower. Petrol suits small cars that will only be used by old ladies in towns because the higher aquisition cost of a diesel will not pay for itself before the car is scrapped/changed. However, where running costs are not a great concern, petrol still wins

[Ferrer]

Modern diesels are normally faster
No they aren't.

Petrol suits small cars that will only be used by old ladies in towns because the higher aquisition cost of a diesel will not pay for itself before the car is scrapped/changed.
I'm sorry, but you don't know how wrong you are.

[group c n b man]

How am I wrong? It is true that a Diesel car is more expensive to buy than an equivalent petrol (from new). It needs a large mileage to break even, therefore for lower mileage drivers, petrol can be cheaper. This is why I said that for old ladies, assuming they don't do many miles, petrol is better suited.
And about the speed thing : compare the in-gear acceleration times for say... a 320d and a 320i and you'll probably find that the diesel is quicker. I think that diesel's speed is more deceptive because it normally requires less effort than in a petrol with a similar engine size. Petrol maybe more exciting, but not always more effective.

[Kitdy]

How am I wrong? It is true that a Diesel car is more expensive to buy than an equivalent petrol (from new). It needs a large mileage to break even, therefore for lower mileage drivers, petrol can be cheaper. This is why I said that for old ladies, assuming they don't do many miles, petrol is better suited.
And about the speed thing : compare the in-gear acceleration times for say... a 320d and a 320i and you'll probably find that the diesel is quicker. I think that diesel's speed is more deceptive because it normally requires less effort than in a petrol with a similar engine size. Petrol maybe more exciting, but not always more effective.

In before Ferrer explains himself for the 100th time: he is an enthusiast, diesel is boring, hence gasoline is better.

[Clivey]

And about the speed thing : compare the in-gear acceleration times for say... a 320d and a 320i and you'll probably find that the diesel is quicker. I think that diesel's speed is more deceptive because it normally requires less effort than in a petrol with a similar engine size. Petrol maybe more exciting, but not always more effective.

You're comparing the 320 petrol and diesels...are you taking into account that the diesel is more expensive, and that you could (in most markets) buy a 325i for the same price as a 320d?

The diesel also has to be turbocharged to get anywhere near the performance required. - If you turbocharged the 2.0-litre petrol in the 320i, the diesel wouldn't see which way it went...and if you removed the turbocharger from the 320d, it would barely move.

My point is that diesels are usually built for economy; petrols for performance.

[henk4]

My point is that diesels are usually built for economy; petrols for performance.
true, but that does nor prevent them to also perform...:)

[Ferrer]

Or to modern petrols be sometimes quite impressive on fuel economy... :)

[jediali]

You're comparing the 320 petrol and diesels...are you taking into account that the diesel is more expensive, and that you could (in most markets) buy a 325i for the same price as a 320d?

The diesel also has to be turbocharged to get anywhere near the performance required. - If you turbocharged the 2.0-litre petrol in the 320i, the diesel wouldn't see which way it went...and if you removed the turbocharger from the 320d, it would barely move.

well put Clivey. I was just thinking your exact 320d vs 320i or 325i conundrum recently. Perhaps a good comparison in engine stats is golf GTI vs GTD in terms of capacity, turbocharging, direct injection etc.

[Ferrer]

well put Clivey. I was just thinking your exact 320d vs 320i or 325i conundrum recently. Perhaps a good comparison in engine stats is golf GTI vs GTD in terms of capacity, turbocharging, direct injection etc.
Well, they cost about the same. The GTI is significantly faster and GTD more frugal.

So that's that sorted, petrol for performance and diesel for economy. But in the end it's a personal choice.

[Clivey]

true, but that does nor prevent them to also perform...:)

Hence my use of the word "usually" in that post. ;)


well put Clivey. I was just thinking your exact 320d vs 320i or 325i conundrum recently. Perhaps a good comparison in engine stats is golf GTI vs GTD in terms of capacity, turbocharging, direct injection etc.

Precisely; The Golf is an excellent example of this, and in fact I was going to use the Golf as the example in my post, but as we were already talking about the 3-Series...

I mean: I could now sell my C4 (1.6 diesel) and buy the VTS 180BHP for the same amount of money, but the running costs would be too much (for a car I mainly use for commuting).


Well, they cost about the same. The GTI is significantly faster and GTD more frugal.

So that's that sorted, petrol for performance and diesel for economy. But in the end it's a personal choice.

Indeed. Hopefully I'll be moving closer to work in the medium-term future...and the reduced running costs of a car will enable me to get something a little less sensible...:D

[Ferrer]

The new petrols though if you do sensible driving aren¡t bad at all. The Minis for instance are astonishing. They could even make sense for commuting.

[Clivey]

The new petrols though if you do sensible driving aren¡t bad at all. The Minis for instance are astonishing. They could even make sense for commuting.

I hear you...but for the purchase price of one of the new-shape Minis you could buy a used Boxter S or S2000 in excellent condition!

[group c n b man]

The best diesels at the moment I'd say are as follows.
4cyl - Mercedes Benz 250CDI. 202bhp, 500nm torque, 55mpg and 134 CO2/km.
V6 - Jaguar 3.0D. 271bhp, 600nm torque, 42mpg and 179 CO2/km.
I6 - BMW 40d. 301bhp, 600nm torque, 40mpg and 181 CO2/km.
V8 - Audi TDI. 345bhp, 800nm torque, 37mpg and 199 CO2/km.
V12 - Audi TDI. 493bhp, 1000nm torque, 25 mpg and 298 CO2/km.

any other ideas?

[henk4]

The best diesels at the moment I'd say are as follows.
4cyl - Mercedes Benz 250CDI. 202bhp, 500nm torque, 55mpg and 134 CO2/km.
V6 - Jaguar 3.0D. 271bhp, 600nm torque, 42mpg and 179 CO2/km.
I6 - BMW 40d. 301bhp, 600nm torque, 40mpg and 181 CO2/km.
V8 - Audi TDI. 345bhp, 800nm torque, 37mpg and 199 CO2/km.
V12 - Audi TDI. 493bhp, 1000nm torque, 25 mpg and 298 CO2/km.

any other ideas?

often forgotten, the Toyota 4.5 D4D V8, only 282 BHP but 650 NM and 270 g/km. Unfortunately they only supply it in the Landcruiser (hence the stupid CO2 figure), and only in the Toyota version, not even the Lexus.

The 3.6 V8 from the landrover (based on the 2.7 liter PSA/Ford engine) 272 BHP and 640 NM, 294g (in the Range Rover). It is about to be discontinued, the original V6 could be taken to three liter as in the Jaguar, which also the C5 and C6 Citroens have, with less power (240) and torque (450) as the transverse gearbox cannot cope with more. (my C5 currently has 468 and the box still lives:)), but obviously not the V8.

In the trend of downsizing also the Mercedes and BMW V8 were dropped not so long ago.

[Ferrer]

Pieter, apparently the 3.6 litre V8 in LRs will be replaced by a 4.4 litre V8 diesel engine of Ford origin, apparently originally meant to fit US Ford trucks but cancelled after it was clear they had no money to invest in things people wouldn't buy.

[henk4]

Pieter, apparently the 3.6 litre V8 in LRs will be replaced by a 4.4 litre V8 diesel engine of Ford origin, apparently originally meant to fit US Ford trucks but cancelled after it was clear they had no money to invest in things people wouldn't buy.

My relatives in Canada drive US trucks with diesel power....but they use trucks to actually tow something.

[Ferrer]

My relatives in Canada drive US trucks with diesel power....but they use trucks to actually tow something.
But I'm sure they have the big 6+ litre engines. I don't know if a smaller one would get many sales.

[henk4]

But I'm sure they have the big 6+ litre engines. I don't know if a smaller one would get many sales.
yes, old style Ford and GM (at least the last time I saw them several years ago:))

[group c n b man]

often forgotten, the Toyota 4.5 D4D V8, only 282 BHP but 650 NM and 270 g/km. Unfortunately they only supply it in the Landcruiser (hence the stupid CO2 figure), and only in the Toyota version, not even the Lexus.

The 3.6 V8 from the landrover (based on the 2.7 liter PSA/Ford engine) 272 BHP and 640 NM, 294g (in the Range Rover). It is about to be discontinued, the original V6 could be taken to three liter as in the Jaguar, which also the C5 and C6 Citroens have, with less power (240) and torque (450) as the transverse gearbox cannot cope with more. (my C5 currently has 468 and the box still lives:)), but obviously not the V8.

In the trend of downsizing also the Mercedes and BMW V8 were dropped not so long ago.

Just out of interest, what were the specs on the Mercedes and BMW diesel v8s? It's difficult to find any facts.

[henk4]

Just out of interest, what were the specs on the Mercedes and BMW diesel v8s? It's difficult to find any facts.

BMW 4.5 liter, 330 BHP, 750 NM, 251 g CO2 (in the 745)
Mercedes 4.0 liter, 320 BHP, 730 NM, 252 g CO2 (in the S-Class)

[csl177]

Regardless of manufacturer or model, Rudolph would approve. From the idea of a work-powering device fueled by rape seed oil and the like from the farms it was intended for, to the mighty domination in motorsport begun by Audi, it's all good. Now, let's move on to getting the world off the oil teat, as it should be. And take a moment to reflect on a 19th century futurist.

Rudolph Diesel deserves accolades never given in his lifetime.

[henk4]

Regardless of manufacturer or model, Rudolph would approve. From the idea of a work-powering device fueled by rape seed oil and the like from the farms it was intended for, to the mighty domination in motorsport begun by Audi, it's all good. Now, let's move on to getting the world off the oil teat, as it should be. And take a moment to reflect on a 19th century futurist.

Rudolph Diesel deserves accolades never given in his lifetime.

I am sure Jeremy Clarkson (and Ferrer) will join us....

[culver]

Regardless of manufacturer or model, Rudolph would approve. From the idea of a work-powering device fueled by rape seed oil and the like from the farms it was intended for, to the mighty domination in motorsport begun by Audi, it's all good. Now, let's move on to getting the world off the oil teat, as it should be. And take a moment to reflect on a 19th century futurist.

Rudolph Diesel deserves accolades never given in his lifetime.

Audi in part thanks to rules that allow diesel's to compete has done quite nicely but they are hardly the first diesel racer. Cummins had a diesel entered at Indy in 1931 and again in the early 1950s.

[Commodore GS/E]

...not to forget the Covini Sirio Turbocooler, the first Diesel to break 200
http://www.netcarshow.com/covini/1981-b24/800x600/wallpaper_02.htm

[henk4]

Audi in part thanks to rules that allow diesel's to compete has done quite nicely but they are hardly the first diesel racer. Cummins had a diesel entered at Indy in 1931 and again in the early 1950s.

Cummins hardly dominated, but you are right. And also the TDI Seats won the WTC in recent years.
The rules were certainly adapted to allow the diesels to be sure that they would be competitive. It did require a fully factory supported team to make that happen though. (and at the time the Audis were the only factory LMP1 team) The only privateer who tried it was Ian Dawson who bought a Radical SR9 and put in a V10 VAG diesel, to run on rapeseed oil or something similar. He never made it to the starting grid after two years of trying in vain.

[Ferrer]

I am sure Jeremy Clarkson (and Ferrer) will join us....
Only when you join petrol praise where it's due.

[culver]

Cummins hardly dominated, but you are right. And also the TDI Seats won the WTC in recent years.
The rules were certainly adapted to allow the diesels to be sure that they would be competitive. It did require a fully factory supported team to make that happen though. (and at the time the Audis were the only factory LMP1 team) The only privateer who tried it was Ian Dawson who bought a Radical SR9 and put in a V10 VAG diesel, to run on rapeseed oil or something similar. He never made it to the starting grid after two years of trying in vain.

The 1952 effort was very good. The car was fast and even set a single lap track record and but failed to finish the race. That was back in the days when many cars DNF'ed due to mechanical issues. I think shortly after that the rules closed out the diesel motor.

[henk4]

Only when you join petrol praise where it's due.

ok, when the last one will be taken out in a diesel engined hearse to its final resting place:)

[henk4]

The 1952 effort was very good. The car was fast and even set a single lap track record and but failed to finish the race. That was back in the days when many cars DNF'ed due to mechanical issues. I think shortly after that the rules closed out the diesel motor.

Indeed, here is a good link to that
Cummins Diesel Indy Race Day - Diesel Power Magazine (http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/0808dp_cummins_diesel_race_car/cummins_diesel_indy_race_day.html)

[SGG]

Historically, not many rental diesels in the UK.
The fear of petrol going in the tank I suspect :D

Your are dead-on here!
I worked at a FIAT dealership,back in Germany.The 1.3 liter Diesel from FIAT is a very quite and cultivated engine,so the first week we had one in a Punto as courtesy vehicle,a customer filled in gasoline!
They don´t like gasoline....not at all...na,her insurance payed for the damage....:D

[Badsight]

and if you removed the turbocharger from the 320d, it would barely move.

& the turbocharger will be helping its economy as well at partial throttle real world running

without boost of some kind , diesels are horrid compared to petrol

[Commodore GS/E]

The SDI Golfs were funny. Very efficient and with rather good torque, even with their low hp ratings. In my memory, they were the only non-turboed production Diesels in the last 30 years (right?).

[LeonOfTheDead]

The SDI Golfs were funny. Very efficient and with rather good torque, even with their low hp ratings. In my memory, they were the only non-turboed production Diesels in the last 30 years (right?).

Mercedes put a 2.2 diesel in the E-Klasse W210, with about 86 bhp iirc.

EDIT: Can't find something on that right now, but here is another one:
C 220 Diesel, 95 bhp: http://carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=6765

[Ferrer]

Last 30 years is since 1980, isn't it? There have been many normally aspirated diesels in that period.

Last ten years though, the Golfs could be the only ones.

[henk4]

Last 30 years is since 1980, isn't it? There have been many normally aspirated diesels in that period.

Last ten years though, the Golfs could be the only ones.

The 1.5d Saxo was available for quite a long time.

[LeonOfTheDead]

So the Peugeot 106 with the 1.4 liter engine (or was it a 1.5 as well?), but possibly both the 106 and the Saxo were already gone by the time the SDI engines from VAG were dismissed.

[pimento]

Don't forget the superlative Hyundai Accent 1.5l 3 cyl NA diesel!

[Kitdy]

Don't forget the superlative Hyundai Accent 1.5l 3 cyl NA diesel!

I can't find anything about this engine. Info?

[Ferrer]

So the Peugeot 106 with the 1.4 liter engine (or was it a 1.5 as well?), but possibly both the 106 and the Saxo were already gone by the time the SDI engines from VAG were dismissed.
They were discontinued in 2003, and the SDi was available until the Golf V was retired in 75 bhp, 2 litre guise.

Don't forget the superlative Hyundai Accent 1.5l 3 cyl NA diesel!
It had a turbo AFAIK.

[pimento]

Ok, that may have been a recollection failure from the top gear episode where they tested all those Korean and Malaysian cars.

Edit: It's a VM Motori engine, the R315 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VM_Motori_engines). No mention of a turbo..

[henk4]

Ok, that may have been a recollection failure from the top gear episode where they tested all those Korean and Malaysian cars.

Edit: It's a VM Motori engine, the R315 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VM_Motori_engines). No mention of a turbo..

none of the VM engines there seems to have a turbo ;)...but in combination with a Common Rail, you would not think that they would not put turbo on it, especially as it has 90 bhp out of a 1300 cc.......my BX TRD Turbo had 90 BHP out of 1700 cc.

[wwgkd]

none of the VM engines there seems to have a turbo ;)...but in combination with a Common Rail, you would not think that they would not put turbo on it, especially as it has 90 bhp out of a 1300 cc.......my BX TRD Turbo had 90 BHP out of 1700 cc.

I may have misunderstood this bit, but why would they not want to put a turbo on a common rail? It seems to be fairly common in truck engines here.

Edit: Right, I missed a "not" the first couple times I read that.

[henk4]

I may have misunderstood this bit, but why would they not want to put a turbo on a common rail? It seems to be fairly common in truck engines here.

that is what I am saying, every CR diesel has a turbo. The fact that VM does not mention that is probably because it is so common.....

[pimento]

that is what I am saying, every CR diesel has a turbo. The fact that VM does not mention that is probably because it is so common.....

I'd say you're probably right. I hearby withdraw any mention of Hyundai.. :P

[group c n b man]

Only when you join petrol praise where it's due.

Ferrer, having just returned from your gorgeous country, it's abundantly clear to me that you must be in a minority where you come from with regards to diesel and petrol. There seem to be far more diesels in Catalunya than even here in the UK. You also don't like Audis (or am I confusing you with LeonOfTheDead) and I have never seen such a high concentration of Audis in my 18 years as in Calella de Palafrugell and Lla Franc. Unbelievable, every 4th or 5th car I saw seemed to be an Audi of some description. :D

[Ferrer]

Unfortunately Catalunya is indeed Audi territory, that's got do with Volkswagen (and therefore Audi) being Seat's parent company. And of course we buy a lot of diesels, altough the trend seems to be inverting somewhat. For instance our new police cars are turbocharged petrol-engined Seats.

It's curious that in places like Madrid, it's Mercs for instance that are far more popular.

EDIT That's right up in Costa Brava's heart. Best place in Catalunya. How was the AP-7? Fast? ;)

[group c n b man]

Unfortunately Catalunya is indeed Audi territory, that's got do with Volkswagen (and therefore Audi) being Seat's parent company. And of course we buy a lot of diesels, altough the trend seems to be inverting somewhat. For instance our new police cars are turbocharged petrol-engined Seats.

It's curious that in places like Madrid, it's Mercs for instance that are far more popular.

Yes. Every single police car I saw was a SEAT Altea XL. Obviously, your roads are very suited to these modern diesels with VERY long straight sections inland a bit, and plenty of hills around the Costa Brava. There was definately a lack of Mercedes where I was though as well as SEATs. By far the most common car was the Audi A3 2.0TDI. What are your favourite roads around Catalunya by the way?

[Ferrer]

It's curious you should mention that, because in Barcelona the Exeo is a moderately popular choice amongst residents there. However furhter up north in Girona, which is a richer part of the country, you can hardly see any Exeos at all. What you see instead are the aforementioned Audis, but also BMWs and Saabs are popular too. Girona is a curious place, people there have money but they don't want to show it, so it's actually difficult to see flashy cars but it's easy to see good expensive cars. The Passat W8 for instance, seemed to be a car especially tailored for there.

As for great roads, my personal favourites are those:

-La Pujada als Angels, GIV-6703 just outside Girona to the east. 16km divided in two clear sections. The first half is a relatively smooth, slow section with many second gear corners and very narrow in places. The second half is faster, but very bumpy, and it can easily unsettle the car if you aren't careful.

-Santa Pellaia, GI-664 from Cassà de la Selva to La Bisbal d'Empordà, 24km. A very fast first few kilometres turn into one of the best of roads I've ever driven in. Lots of third and second gear corners, with some of them off-camber. Mostly smooth, but some hidden bumps in compromised places. At the end it opens up again before arriving to La Bisbal.

-GI-660, from La Bisbal d'Empordà to Calonge. 16km of a similar road to the previous one. Again fast at the beggining and then it closes and narrows down for a very twisty section, until arriving at Calonge. The tarmac is quite slippery at the end.

-GIV-6612, Carretera de Llagostera, from Calonge to the main road (C-65) that takes you to Girona, 15km. Quite a change from the previous ones. Moderately fast in the first half with many third and four gear corners and some straights. After the Santa Cristina junction and perhaps my favourite corner ever, an off-camber chicane which you can take at over 100km/h if you are in the mood, the road opens up to include high speed corners and straights.

-GIV-6641, Pujada al Montnegre. Only 10km, but the greatest thing about this road is that it doesn't really take you anywhere. So most of the time it is deserted. Slow, narrow and bumpy, with a moderately fast section of third and fourth gear corners. Gets narrower towards the end.

-Carretera de Rierada, BV-1468 from Valldoreig to Molins de Rei. Again a short one at only 10km. A slow start that gets faster as you progress down the road. Good tarmac, sensibly wide. Enjoyable sewwping corners towards the end, arriving at Molins de Rei.

And that's that for now. But I believe there many more great roads waiting to be discovered out here. I guess I'll just have to go out and drive to find them. :)

[group c n b man]

Unfortunately Catalunya is indeed Audi territory, that's got do with Volkswagen (and therefore Audi) being Seat's parent company. And of course we buy a lot of diesels, altough the trend seems to be inverting somewhat. For instance our new police cars are turbocharged petrol-engined Seats.

It's curious that in places like Madrid, it's Mercs for instance that are far more popular.

EDIT That's right up in Costa Brava's heart. Best place in Catalunya. How was the AP-7? Fast? ;)

Do you refer to the area in which I was staying? I really love that area, 2010 was my third time and I'd go back in an instant. I was advised by several locals to go out there to work next year "porque tu hablas espanol muy bien y no tienes un accento ingles" :D

En realidad, no tengo la confianza y mi espanol es demasiado mal! I really enjoyed speaking as much Spanish as possible since I studied it in my last year in school.

The road surface in Catalunya is unbelievably good compared with where I live (Holes the size of craters). Unfortunately I wasn't driving and the car which my dad hired from the airport was a Kia Carnival, which would have been no fun anyway. However, those roads look like huge fun between Pals and Palafrugell (not to mention the twisty roads around Tamariu and other coastal towns) I feel an urgent need to go back next year and hire a good car with only a few friends to enjoy the roads with.

You really can feel proud of your country for the roads, scenery and people. El ano que viene, me gustaria mucho volver a Catalunya. Yo pienso que es uno de partes mas bonitos en todo el mundo. Las carreteras son mucho mas intersantes que aqui en Escocia. Tambien, las mujeres son mas guapas que en Escocia!

[Ferrer]

The road surface in Catalunya is unbelievably good compared with where I live (Holes the size of craters). Unfortunately I wasn't driving and the car which my dad hired from the airport was a Kia Carnival, which would have been no fun anyway. However, those roads look like huge fun between Pals and Palafrugell (not to mention the twisty roads around Tamariu and other coastal towns) I feel an urgent need to go back next year and hire a good car with only a few friends to enjoy the roads with.

You really can feel proud of your country for the roads, scenery and people. El ano que viene, me gustaria mucho volver a Catalunya. Yo pienso que es uno de partes mas bonitos en todo el mundo. Las carreteras son mucho mas intersantes que aqui en Escocia. Tambien, las mujeres son mas guapas que en Escocia!
Haha, Thank you. :)

And yes indeed, you won't enjoy those roads in a Kia van. Better get something else. (Most of the roads I mentioned are in the area you stayed).