Ford Falcon BA XR6 Mark 11 Road Test

[motorsportnerd]

I was in Wellington, New Zealand last week, and come Saturday I had a free day. I decided to pop down to Hertz and rent a car for the day. They reserved me a Falcon XR6 - though I was also tempted to try the new Focus. However, XR6 it was, and I'm glad I did rent it. I have driven many kilometres in base model, rental Falcon BA XTs, so I was most interested to see how much better than an XT the XR6 was.
Firstly, the XR6 shares the same 4.0 litre 24 valve DOHC Barra180 engine as the XT. No extra power. In fact, the XR6 is a little bit heavier than the XT thanks to the extra weight of the body kit, and equipment upgrades.
Equipment levels between the XT and the XR6 are similar - both have power steering, trip computer, dual airbags, ABS, electric front seat adjustment, electric windows, remote locking, CD player, four speed tiptronic auto, auto lights on/off function and air conditioning. On top of this the XR6 gets cruise control (an option on the XT, but all I've driven had cruise), traction control, sports-style bucket seats and sports trim, special XR instruments (speed shows increments up to 280km/h, which is ludricous since the car is limited to 180km/h), body kit (comprising side skirts, front and rear spoilers, XR graphics and the four XR style round headlights), 17 inch alloys shod with 235/35 R17 tyres and sports suspension.
Brand new, an BF XT is A$35,880 and the BF XR6 is $39,710, both with a four-speed auto. The sports kit and equipment upgrades easily justify the price difference between the XT and XR6 when considering brand new prices. However, when considering second hand prices, a good lowish mileage (say 45,000km) 2003 XT costs about $15,000, while a similar mileage 2003 XR6 costs $24,000. So,obviously the XR6 holds value somewhat better, but is it really worth $9,000 more than the $15K BA?? After all, you get the same engine (ie: no extra performance) and some equipment upgrades, which are probably easily worth the $4,000 difference when the two cars are brand new, but after three years, the difference has blown out to $9K.
I may be in the market for one of these cars very soon (I want to get a different car this year), and an XR6 is very appealing to me. So, time to find out if it is really worth my effort to fund the $9K price difference between a second hand XT and XR6.
So, after picking up the car, I headed south out of Wellington on the motorway, heading for the suburbs and a nearby mountain range (for those who know the lower North Island, the Rimutaka range). On the motorway, the XR6 displays all the attributes I know and like from the XT. Smooth, refined engine, plenty of power with a decent spread of torque all the way up the rev range to about 5,500 rpm, solid, well weighted steering, comfortable seats and a smooth, compliant ride. I'm impressed with the ride, considering the sports suspension and very low profile tyres. Only the occasional thump gets through, and the ride is firmish, but overall, the XR6's sports suspension is only marginally less comfortable than the comfort-oriented XT's suspension. Certainly, the ride is still very comfortable for long trips. So far, so good. But the XR6 is doing nothing that the XT doesn't do. Sure, I like the XR's instrument graphics, but while it looks good, the rear spoiler is rather annoying in the rear view mirror.
So as I drive down the motorway and through suburbia, I'm thinking - I'll save the $9K and buy an XT. I can always find one with alloys and spoilers if I want that.
Then I reach the Rimutaka range. The road is step and twisty - its a fantastic driver's road. I clear a couple of slower cars on the passing lanes at the bottom of the ranges, and turn into the first few corners carrying speed somewhat higher than the recommended limits for the corners. NOW I understand what the XR6 is all about. Boy, does this thing handle. For such a big, heavy car, it has minimal body roll, exceptional grip, fantastic turn in, excellent feel through the steering and it is, simply put, an absolute joy to drive reasonably hard up a step, winding road. The four speed auto has very long ratios, so charging up-hill, one just leaves it in second on the tiptronic mode (to prevent the computer hunting the transmission between 2nd and 3rd) and you just use the immense reserves of torque to power between corners. Now, I was well under the 100 km/h speed limit over this road, but often twice the recommended speed through a number of 25-35km/h corners. So, I wasn't breaking any laws of physics or driving dangerously. But I was going much faster than I would have been in many other cars. At one point, while passing another Falcon on a passing lane at more than double the suggested 35km/h on one tight right hand corner, I did reach the start of the XR6's handling limits. The right rear tyre smoked and gave notice that the limit had been reached. One of the advantages of rear wheel drive - wheelspin from the rear tyres at the limit:p .The traction control probably helped keep it all safe, but it didn't flash, so there was probably another 10km/h left before it was dangerous.
I returned to Wellington, happy to cruise back on the motorway and enjoy the car's refinement. Knowing that the XR6 is up to more than a little bit of play when the road starts to twist and turn. There is the secret to the XR6 - immense cornering ability. The XR6T would no doubt be even more fun, but then that's even more expensive than the XR6 and to be honest, I think the Barra180 is plenty powerful enough for most circumstances.
So, would I buy one over an XT? I'd love to, if I can get the difference between the two down to about $6 or $7K. Especially as the XR6's second trump card over the XT other than handling is its much better resale value.

[motorsportnerd]

Some of you may remember that I posted my impressions on driving a rental Mitsubishi 380 VRX a few months back.
So, comparisons between the the Mitsubishi and the Ford are inevitable. Which is better? I'd say it depends on which badge you prefer, and whether you really hate FWD or not. In absolute terms, the Mitsubishi is the marginally better car. The 380 is a bit more refined - especially in terms of body strength and solidity - than the XR6. The 380's engine also sounds much more sporty and hard edged than the XR6s. And the 380 actually has slightly better steering feel and the handling is technically on par with the XR6. You can certainly corner as fast in the 380 as you can in the XR6, though the XR6 has less body roll. But I wrote in the 380 test: "The only issue I had was that while the steering is well weighted and offers some feel, it doesn’t offer as much information as I’d like and doesn’t feel as alive as the steering in the Mazda6. The VRX goes exactly where pointed, feels good, but doesn’t excite in the way that the Mazda6 does through the twisty bits." Replace "Mazda6" with "Falcon XR6" and you can probably tell that I actually had more fun in the XR6 than in the 380. The 380 is technically the marginally better car, but the Falcon is a much more fun car and I have a long time preference for Fords, so personally I'd buy the XR6.
One issue I had with both cars was quality issues. In the 380, which was brand new, the stereo speakers rattled and the dashboard trim looked second rate. On the Falcon, which had done only 9,000km, the problem was a noisy diff - a long tem bug bear of big Fords. The diff groaned every time I accelerated gently. It didn't do it when accelarating hard though. The diff noise was annoying and worrying and if it was my car I'd want the dealer to check it. Aussie manufacturers have a long way to go yet in quality terms. I recently rented a Mazda6 with 35,000km on the clock, and dispite the higher mileage, was much better put together than either the 380 or the Falcon.

To finish up on the Falcon, a quick summary.

Likes: Handling, ride, refinement, power, acceleration, looks, comfort.
Dislikes: Rear spoiler impinges on visibility, quality issues.

[SlickHolden]

I thought you bought one:D I was going to say congrats on the buy.
My brother is the same with his car if he bought a XT he would be as happy with that over a XR6.
He bought the BA Fairmont and hasn't stopped complain about it, It's got the cop suspension and i have been in back and front and it feels like a luxury suspension not a sporty one, But it's lower and corners well but the wheels do scream some. Strong engine but it's a slug off the mark and comes into it's own on the freeways.
Did you hate the drive by wire throttle?? I can't get anyone other then my brother and his wife to agree with me that it's so delayed, The Terra wasn't as bad as his Fairmont but it's still not great, If Holden has got the same thing I'll cry:p

[motorsportnerd]

Don't own one yet. Seriously have to weigh up the price difference between the XT and XR6 plus the fact that I'm single and don't need a big car and don't use a car during the week much, so a mid-size Mazda6 is probably a more sensible purchase. And the Mazda6 will give me 95% of the fun, 99% of the performance and much better fuel economy, refinement, reliablity, quality and resale than the Ford. And its much easier to find a manual transmission Mazda6, which I prefer. So, go with the heart (XR6) or the head (Mazda6)?

[motorsportnerd]

Did you hate the drive by wire throttle?? I can't get anyone other then my brother and his wife to agree with me that it's so delayed, The Terra wasn't as bad as his Fairmont but it's still not great, If Holden has got the same thing I'll cry:p

I don't mind the drive by wire throttle. Most new cars have them, you just get used to it. Probably only real sensitive drivers notice it. My boss told me he tested a Mazda6 with the drive by wire throttle, and got just 10 metres before he stopped, got out and said he hated the throttle. Whereas when I drove the Mazda I didn't notice any problem with the throttle. Different drivers I guess.

[charged]

have you driven a Honda Accord Euro, they are meant to be one of the best mid size fwd on the market, I certainly like the look of them. The Japanese still seem to have the edge with quality, I just hired a Toyota Tarago, it had 28000 kays on the clock and was tight as a drum. My wife absolutely loved it, just cant see myself driving a Tarago;) ,also a little on the gutless side with eight people in it.

[SlickHolden]

I don't mind the drive by wire throttle. Most new cars have them, you just get used to it. Probably only real sensitive drivers notice it. My boss told me he tested a Mazda6 with the drive by wire throttle, and got just 10 metres before he stopped, got out and said he hated the throttle. Whereas when I drove the Mazda I didn't notice any problem with the throttle. Different drivers I guess.
I also wouldn't help that my accelerator is heavy:D But after driving all the way to Bathurst and half the way back you would have thought i would have got used to it but i just couldn't come to like it very much, The thing that i hated most was sitting at the light my brother was flooring it up and down and you couldn't here the engine response to his foot input was funny. But on the freeway you don't think about it at all:)

[Cyco]

Another great review motorsportnerd.

[motorsportnerd]

have you driven a Honda Accord Euro, they are meant to be one of the best mid size fwd on the market, I certainly like the look of them. The Japanese still seem to have the edge with quality, I just hired a Toyota Tarago, it had 28000 kays on the clock and was tight as a drum. My wife absolutely loved it, just cant see myself driving a Tarago;) ,also a little on the gutless side with eight people in it.

Haven't driven the Accord Euro, but I do like them. Unfortunately, at present even second hand examples are above the outer limits of what I'd consider spending.

[Clivey]

You've captured the difference between the typical "European & Japanese" cars and "American and Australian" cars right there in your review...

...a 4.0V8 in the Falcon vs >2.5 litre engines in the Mazda and Honda. Why should you need a 4.0 in a family car? I've not seen the performance figures but if you need a 250 odd BHP V8 to equal an I4 or V6 (is it around 8 seconds to 60?), what is that saying? And we wonder how we can stop global warming...!:D Also, why is it limited to 180km/h?

In the UK, a car in that market with a 4.0 would be laughed at for being a backwards-thinking person's barge. for around 250 BHP most manufacturers would use something like a 2.0 Turbo or a 3 litre V6, not add another 2 cylinders and another litre of displacement...that just adds to weight, and the "lardass factor". I've got the image of a car cornering sideways like in so many '70s American films. Does the standard XT handle at all without the stiffened suspension?

You also mentioned the build quality...there is no way I'd buy family car with strange noises coming from the diff. From all of the pictures I've seen of the Falcon, it looks like it's already 5 years old with an interior made from the cheapest plastic available. Then get into the Accord. If it's anything like the version we get here in the UK I'd strongly urge you to go for that.

I can imagine where the design and manufacture of the 2001 Mondeo we had to endure for a year went wrong - it's taking cues and thinking from overweight 70's American barges!

EDIT: By the way, can I have an example of an Australian post code so that I can view Honda's Australian website (it asks to find a dealer before it lets you see details on the cars)?

[Cyco]

EDIT: By the way, can I have an example of an Australian post code so that I can view Honda's Australian website (it asks to find a dealer before it lets you see details on the cars)?

All Australian post codes are 4 didget. Try 2000 (Central Sydney) to get in.

[nota]

Brand new, an BF XT is A$35,880 and the BF XR6 is $39,710, both with a four-speed auto. The sports kit and equipment upgrades easily justify the price difference between the XT and XR6 when considering brand new prices. However, when considering second hand prices, a good lowish mileage (say 45,000km) 2003 XT costs about $15,000, while a similar mileage 2003 XR6 costs $24,000.
Good reading! :D

To mention, in recent weeks you might have seen Sydney dealers advertising new (old stock) MkII Falcon SR with sports susp, tiptronic, 17"s air CD etc for under $28k driveaway. New MkII XR8 (leather & 5speed) are $38k driveaway - a not inconsiderable $20k off list price!

[motorsportnerd]

Good reading! :D

To mention, in recent weeks you might have seen Sydney dealers advertising new (old stock) MkII Falcon SR with sports susp, tiptronic, 17"s air CD etc for under $28k driveaway. New MkII XR8 (leather & 5speed) are $38k driveaway - a not inconsiderable $20k off list price!

Seen those ads. In fact the SR is probably a good compromise between the XT and the XR6.

[nota]

You've captured the difference between the typical "European & Japanese" cars and "American and Australian" cars right there in your review...
Nah, your post demonstrates your ignorance of Falcon - understandable from afar imo, but these biased prejudices you (unwashed?) Poms still need to believe in, do differ from reality


...a 4.0V8 in the Falcon vs >2.5 litre engines in the Mazda and Honda. Why should you need a 4.0 in a family car? I've not seen the performance figures but if you need a 250 odd BHP V8 to equal an I4 or V6 (is it around 8 seconds to 60?), what is that saying? And we wonder how we can stop global warming...!:D Also, why is it limited to 180km/h?

In the UK, a car in that market with a 4.0 would be laughed at for being a backwards-thinking person's barge. for around 250 BHP most manufacturers would use something like a 2.0 Turbo or a 3 litre V6, not add another 2 cylinders and another litre of displacement...that just adds to weight, and the "lardass factor". I've got the image of a car cornering sideways like in so many '70s American films. Does the standard XT handle at all without the stiffened suspension?
(a) Falcon DOHC 4.0 is straight-six, the 5.4 SOHC & Quadcam are V8s

(b) Many "backward-thinking" :rolleyes: Aussie buyers still consider they 'need' a reasonably-sized engine, after laughing at gutless euro & jap twee-engined :gay: alternatives which can't pull the skin off a rice pudding - particularly if auto

(c) 99.9% of buyers here never attempt Global-Warming speeds of over 180km/h. A more pertinent factor for family car buyers is that insurance rates are likely reduced via limiters

In the UK, a car in that market with a 4.0 would be laughed at for being a backwards-thinking person's barge. for around 250 BHP most manufacturers would use something like a 2.0 Turbo or a 3 litre V6, not add another 2 cylinders and another litre of displacement...that just adds to weight, and the "lardass factor". I've got the image of a car cornering sideways like in so many '70s American films. Does the standard XT handle at all without the stiffened suspension?
Despite MSN's positive impressions of Falcon handling, your seem desperate to hang on to your stereotypes. Do yourself a favour and look at these test results of the "backward-thinking lardass" Falcon XT 6cyl auto of your imaginings, against reality via this same-day comparison from our leading Wheels magazine

nb: XT = Falcon's slowest, least-expensive, worst handling sedan model on mediocre Goodyear Infinity fleet-spec tyres. Yes XT has plastic hubcaps on narrow steel wheels

Dry Lateral

0.832g: BMW 330Ci
0.832g: Accord Euro
0.827g: Falcon XT
0.826g: Mazda3 Maxx Sport
0.815g: Ford Territory (SUV)
0.800g: Opel/Holden Astra CD (new-gen)
0.788g: Corolla Levin

Wet Lateral

0.826g: Mazda3
0.806g: Euro
0.800g: Falcon
0.800g: Astra
0.788g: Corolla
0.781g: BMW
0.768g: Territory

Wet Transient (in seconds)

24.48 Falcon
24.60: BMW
25.49: Euro
25.81: Mazda3
25.89: Corolla
25.98: Astra
26.28: Territory

Overtaking Exposure 60-120km/h in seconds

6.84: Falcon
7.52: BMW 330 Ci :eek: < 300% of Falcon list price, btw
9.88: Territory
10.02: Mazda3
11.39: Mazda6 Classic :D
11.59: Corolla
12.69: Astra

Wheels summation: Falcon XT
This result makes the case for the big Aussie car. If it's slung together right it can save your bacon. Add its mass advantage over the more diminutive competition and you add another layer not addressed by NCAP test results - when big cars and small cars collide, physics favours the heavyweight

When its good, its sensational. Blistering acceleration slashes wrong-side exposure during overtaking, and it carries copious lateral G-loads into corners both wet and dry. If you need to swerve and recover in the wet, Falcon out-points all but the mighty Mazda6 - and in doing so puts the smaller, notionally more nimble, cars in this field to shame

A similarly credible result in highway braking, with less than half a car's length separating Falcon in 6th from Mazda3 in first slot (a full car's length in front of wodden-spooner Lancer) sees Falcon earn a decent score in this test, even though it ranks at just inside the front half of the field. A similar spread separated the wet stoppers. Falcon placed fifth, but stopped within half a car's length of Corolla in first place

If it were to lift its game in the stopping department, this might have been enough to capture top position overall. Less than two percent separates the winner [Mazda6] from second [Falcon XT]

nb: Falcon XT brakes are improved on '06-spec models

[Edit] Wheels: BMW 330Ci
.. its magnificent 3.0-litre 170kw straight-six was no match for Falcon, which has an extra litre and packs 12kw/80Nm more, despite the Ford's 200kg greater mass. The fleet-spec Ford just out-grunts it. :D

[charged]

:) Australia is quite unique compared to England, its much larger compared to your postage stamp sized country:p . We actually go outside and tow boats trailers etc. Case in point was up the river the other day retrieving my boat from the ramp 1600kg, try pulling that out with you Mondeo:p no chance .
Aussies have grown up with large vehichles and the latest crop are great value for money and dynamically very good.If we are a backward country with our open spaces, blue skies ,temperate climate,sandy beaches and big cars. I wouldnt have it any other way. Now put on some sunscreen you white, pastey pom and keep out of that sun. Youre probably tanned and fit, but those generalisations can be quite cruel and incorrect.:)

[Blitz_]

:) Australia is quite unique compared to England, its much larger compared to your postage stamp sized country:p . We actually go outside and tow boats trailers etc. Case in point was up the river the other day retrieving my boat from the ramp 1600kg, try pulling that out with you Mondeo:p no chance .
Aussies have grown up with large vehichles and the latest crop are great value for money and dynamically very good.If we are a backward country with our open spaces, blue skies ,temperate climate,sandy beaches and big cars. I wouldnt have it any other way. Now put on some sunscreen you white, pastey pom and keep out of that sun. Youre probably tanned and fit, but those generalisations can be quite cruel and incorrect.:)


owned :D

[motorsportnerd]

You've captured the difference between the typical "European & Japanese" cars and "American and Australian" cars right there in your review...

...a 4.0V8 in the Falcon vs >2.5 litre engines in the Mazda and Honda. Why should you need a 4.0 in a family car? I've not seen the performance figures but if you need a 250 odd BHP V8 to equal an I4 or V6 (is it around 8 seconds to 60?), what is that saying? And we wonder how we can stop global warming...!:D Also, why is it limited to 180km/h?)

Nota beat me to it in regards the fact the engine is a straight six (I said 24-valve in the review, which was a clue, but should have put straight-six as well, sorry).
The 0-100 time according to reports is about 7.7 secs (for the auto), which is roughly the same as that for a manual Mazda6 2.3 and slower than a manual Accord Euro 2.4. In-gear acceleration is different story as Nota points out.
Six clyinder, non-turbo Falcons are speed limited to 180km/h because that's what the driveshaft is rated up to to guarantee reliability. Besides, its pointless having the ability to go at even 180 km/h on a public road outside unlimited German autobahns. The V8s and XR6 Turbos get stronger driveshafts, hence no limiters. An XR6T or a Falcon GT will reach 240km/h plus.



In the UK, a car in that market with a 4.0 would be laughed at for being a backwards-thinking person's barge. for around 250 BHP most manufacturers would use something like a 2.0 Turbo or a 3 litre V6, not add another 2 cylinders and another litre of displacement...that just adds to weight, and the "lardass factor". I've got the image of a car cornering sideways like in so many '70s American films. Does the standard XT handle at all without the stiffened suspension?

Sideways cornering? Only if you turn the traction control off, have access to a racetrack and more driving ability than most people possess. Neither the XR6 or the XT will oversteer unless given extreme provacation - and for the safety of other road users that requires a race track.
The XT handles very well. Nota gave the raw figures. I can give you seat of the pants impression. Yes, the XT is biased towards comfort. However, given even allowing for that, the XT has excellent, well weighted steering with plenty of feedback, it turns in quickly (perhaps a touch too quick) and changes direction and responds to steering inputs quickly and smoothly. Ultimate handling tends towards understeer, and it rolls more than the XR6. The XR6 is certainly much better, but for a base model, the XT is damned good. In terms of the overall ride/handling compromise, there's not many better cars around - unless you pay lots more. And before you ask or compare it to smaller cars - the only smaller, more nimble cars I driven with better or equal handling than the XT are the Ford Mondeo you deride above, the Focus and the Mazda6. All products from the same engineering and chassis people - Ford and Mazda know how to make cars handle.


You also mentioned the build quality...there is no way I'd buy family car with strange noises coming from the diff. From all of the pictures I've seen of the Falcon, it looks like it's already 5 years old with an interior made from the cheapest plastic available. Then get into the Accord. If it's anything like the version we get here in the UK I'd strongly urge you to go for that.

The plastics on the BA Falcon are actually pretty good. Are you looking at pictures of the BA or the older AU design? BA interior is attached to my review.
Quality is an issue for Aussie manufacturers. I'll continue to slam them for it until they get it right. The quality concerns don't affect engine, suspension or electronic reliabiliy. They're more connected to a belief that when paying big dollars for a new car it should be close to perfect in the fit and finish area. That doesn't mean the rest of the package isn't right for the Aussie market, nor does it mean that the Falcon can't withstand huge distances. Plenty of Falcon taxis with 800,000km on the clock attest the the basic strength and reliability of the design.


I can imagine where the design and manufacture of the 2001 Mondeo we had to endure for a year went wrong - it's taking cues and thinking from overweight 70's American barges!

I own a '97 Mondeo - its no barge. Handling is up to the mark compared to many other cars I've driven. Nor is it poor quality. Its a nine year old car which still drives very tightly and still has impressively strong body integrity, and no rattles or groans and no reliability dramas. And I've driven the '01 model in NZ - which is even better. Either your car was a lemon, or you're unfairly comparing it to hot hatches or sports cars.

[Cyco]

For the guys here who havn't meet Clivey before, his father used to own a Ford and sounds like it was a bit of a lemon - so no car that has anything to do with the Blue Oval can possibly be any good or ever pretend to perform well.

[nota]

^^ and us perennial 'colonials' who have long-since discarded that obnoxiously stultifying yet typifyingly British class-structure religion of 'pay more Guv' are supposedly incapable of building affordable, good handing out-performing motor vehicles :rolleyes:




ps: Thanks for acknowledgement MSN :). Btw I edited my previous post to amend (emend?) content

[2ndclasscitizen]

I'd like to point something out to you there Clivey, the BA -> Falcon has double wishbone front suspension, which is not bad for a "backwards-thinking persons barge", and Control Blade IRS on the rear, which is what is also used in the Focus. And as for interior, when you're watching out for roos, or driving down a terrible road thats making the whole car rattle, I don't really pay attention to the dash

[clutch-monkey]

is it just me or is clivey a retard? as in really ignorant? i mean who bashes a car without even knowing what engine it has :confused:

[SlickHolden]

You've captured the difference between the typical "European & Japanese" cars and "American and Australian" cars right there in your review...

...a 4.0V8 in the Falcon vs >2.5 litre engines in the Mazda and Honda. Why should you need a 4.0 in a family car? I've not seen the performance figures but if you need a 250 odd BHP V8 to equal an I4 or V6 (is it around 8 seconds to 60?), what is that saying? And we wonder how we can stop global warming...!:D Also, why is it limited to 180km/h?


In the UK, a car in that market with a 4.0 would be laughed at for being a backwards-thinking person's barge. for around 250 BHP most manufacturers would use something like a 2.0 Turbo or a 3 litre V6, not add another 2 cylinders and another litre of displacement...that just adds to weight, and the "lardass factor". I've got the image of a car cornering sideways like in so many '70s American films. Does the standard XT handle at all without the stiffened suspension?


You also mentioned the build quality...there is no way I'd buy family car with strange noises coming from the diff. From all of the pictures I've seen of the Falcon, it looks like it's already 5 years old with an interior made from the cheapest plastic available. Then get into the Accord. If it's anything like the version we get here in the UK I'd strongly urge you to go for that.


I can imagine where the design and manufacture of the 2001 Mondeo we had to endure for a year went wrong - it's taking cues and thinking from overweight 70's American barges!


EDIT: By the way, can I have an example of an Australian post code so that I can view Honda's Australian website (it asks to find a dealer before it lets you see details on the cars)?
Quote 1:.... 4lt straight six;).
And speed limiters are good for country's that have speed limits for safety:p

Quote 2:... It also comes with a Turbo. And last time i looked not many cars in the UK had it's performance, And little old backwards thinking Monaro went over to the UK and was tested on Top gear, And beat some shit brands called Chrysler and Jag, Not bad for a Aussie build car and it's not the best built but the favourite
And i drove a Ford Territory with Blade control IRS, Big SUV and it's handling was fantastic the IRS in the Fords is very good.

Quote 3:.. My brother owns a Ford BA Fairmont, And his diff has no noise, Cars built in Mass production can get some gremlins in the mix of 100,000's+ built.
My brothers intiria is just fine and it's not cheap plastic, Try and see one in the flesh then judge it cause you can't judge a car from a bloody picture!.

Quote 4:.. American cars of the 70's looked big and heavy, But infact they didn't weigh that much more then todays cars.

Quote 5:.. POQ:p

[SlickHolden]

is it just me or is clivey a retard? as in really ignorant? i mean who bashes a car without even knowing what engine it has :confused:
Someone hasn't had his mull for the week:p

[adrenaline]

I can't get anyone other then my brother and his wife to agree with me that it's so delayed

Ive said before that i agree on the throttle response lag with the tezza:D...I dont know about the falcon range though...

[adrenaline]

You've captured the difference between the typical "European & Japanese" cars and "American and Australian" cars right there in your review...

...a 4.0V8 in the Falcon vs >2.5 litre engines in the Mazda and Honda. Why should you need a 4.0 in a family car? I've not seen the performance figures but if you need a 250 odd BHP V8 to equal an I4 or V6 (is it around 8 seconds to 60?), what is that saying? And we wonder how we can stop global warming...!:D Also, why is it limited to 180km/h?

In the UK, a car in that market with a 4.0 would be laughed at for being a backwards-thinking person's barge. for around 250 BHP most manufacturers would use something like a 2.0 Turbo or a 3 litre V6, not add another 2 cylinders and another litre of displacement...that just adds to weight, and the "lardass factor". I've got the image of a car cornering sideways like in so many '70s American films. Does the standard XT handle at all without the stiffened suspension?

You also mentioned the build quality...there is no way I'd buy family car with strange noises coming from the diff. From all of the pictures I've seen of the Falcon, it looks like it's already 5 years old with an interior made from the cheapest plastic available. Then get into the Accord. If it's anything like the version we get here in the UK I'd strongly urge you to go for that.

I can imagine where the design and manufacture of the 2001 Mondeo we had to endure for a year went wrong - it's taking cues and thinking from overweight 70's American barges!

EDIT: By the way, can I have an example of an Australian post code so that I can view Honda's Australian website (it asks to find a dealer before it lets you see details on the cars)?

I sense fanboyism. *sighs*

Id prefer an aussie falcon over a wussy accord any day.

BTW what do the euros have as competition for HSV/ FPV at their price range?

[SlickHolden]

Ive said before that i agree on the throttle response lag with the tezza:D...I dont know about the falcon range though...
I forgot about that one:D, But they think it's worse in the Sedan.
I called herrod and spoke to them and they say it's all in the ECU, But a higher torque converter would help as the falcon takes off at about 1200rpm, They can fix that for faster take offs at around 1900rpm.

[motorsportnerd]

I sense fanboyism. *sighs*

Id prefer an aussie falcon over a wussy accord any day.



Be fair. An Accord Euro is not that wussy. While the Euro is not really a competitor to the Falcon, I'll indulge some comparisons anyway. A manual Accord Euro is about half a second quicker to 100 km/h than then non-turbo Falcon sixes (7.1 to 7.7 roughly). And the Euro has decent dynamics. It will also match or better the Falcon for refinement, comfort, safety, equipment levels. However, I'll agree that it is a less "macho" car in its styling and its certainly not comparable to the turbo Falcons or the V8s.
Having said all that, at an emotional level I prefer the Falcon. At an intellectual and rational level the Euro makes a great deal of sense. However, as I said before the Euro is too expensive for me to consider buying, whereas the equally good Mazda6 just comes into the price range I'd consider (we're talking used, not new).

[Clivey]

Nah, your post demonstrates your ignorance of Falcon - understandable from afar imo, but these biased prejudices you (unwashed?) Poms still need to believe in, do differ from reality

I admit that I've not really looked at Australian cars in detail because they just arent relevant for me; in the same way that i's not really relevant for you to compare a UK-spec Vauxhall Vectra with a VW Passat when you live in Australia. So yes, I don't know much about the car(s) and that's why I'm questioning them.

I don't "need" to believe in anything...it's not as if there's a case of national or continental pride at stake. I realise that in your country there is a market for that sort of vehicle for a reason:

1. I'm betting your fuel prices are nowhere near as crushing as ours (ours can quite often be in the range of $2.20 AUS a litre!) Therefore anything with over a 2.0 litre engine isn't considered essential for family motoring. Therefore you can afford to drive cars with bigger engines.

2. Australian cars (Ford and Holden at least) are incredibly cheap to buy...from doing a straighforward currency conversion, you guys get your 4.0 Falcons for the same price we get 2.0 Mondeos.

3. Australia is a massive country, you could drive on a motorway no doubt for '00s of miles, which is when a big engine with an auto box comes into it's own.

Just as in Europe (and the UK in particular) the opposite is true for the statements above (small countries with small roads, high fuel prices, expensive list prices for cars).

I would love for someone to tell me what I'm apparently biased against...personally I love the idea of a RWD 4.0 saloon car for that price but based on everything I've seen anywhere else, for a price like that you have to have a trade off, that's why I assumed handling was going to be one of them. If you said to someone outside of America or Australia "I'll give you a large 4.0 RWD saloon car for under £17k" they'd probably reply "What's the catch?" That's because previously in history we've become accustomed to cars like the Ford Crown Victoria from the USA. Cheap? Yes but a barge? Yes.

The best way for me to gain knowledge of these cars is to question them, therefore I'm not suprised at all that a bunch of you have all turned around to exclaim that the Falcon can handle etc. etc. But I am not, as Clutch said "bashing" the car.


(a) Falcon DOHC 4.0 is straight-six, the 5.4 SOHC & Quadcam are V8s

My bad, I was taking a quick look at the Falcon on the Ford Australia website and got the engine sized mixed up. What sort of fuel economy do they manage? We expect around 32 mpg (combined) from our family cars, anything else is very expensive to run in the UK. That's why Lexus (according to Whatcar? magazine) wont sell the 3.0 litre version of the new IS200 here, it wont sell because people can't afford to run it. They were better off focussing on the diesel version for this market.


(b) Many "backward-thinking" :rolleyes: Aussie buyers still consider they 'need' a reasonably-sized engine, after laughing at gutless euro & jap twee-engined :gay: alternatives which can't pull the skin off a rice pudding - particularly if auto

Let's see your fuel economy figures. The "gutless" smaller engined cars start to make more sense when you have to pay out fuel costs...it's then you realise you don't actually "need" a huge engine, in the same way you don't "need" expensive clothing if it's going to break the bank.


(c) 99.9% of buyers here never attempt Global-Warming speeds of over 180km/h. A more pertinent factor for family car buyers is that insurance rates are likely reduced via limiters

If you drive pretty much any car over 180km/h you can guarantee you're not going to be particulatly concerned about fuel economy...the reason for the whole fuel thing was made clear above. I was just wondering why the car was limited.


Despite MSN's positive impressions of Falcon handling, your seem desperate to hang on to your stereotypes. Do yourself a favour and look at these test results of the "backward-thinking lardass" Falcon XT 6cyl auto of your imaginings, against reality via this same-day comparison from our leading Wheels magazine

MSN isn't exactly the law on cars so excuse me if I haven't read their reviews. I am simply just trying to gain information, and from that, yes the performance does seem impressive...but at what cost? I'm sure if that was the best way to make a car, hordes of other manufacturers would be doing the same thing now, as it is, Euro and Japanese manufacturers have built cars that are designed for their respective markets, just as Ford Australia and Holden have done.


[Edit] Wheels: BMW 330Ci
.. its magnificent 3.0-litre 170kw straight-six was no match for Falcon, which has an extra litre and packs 12kw/80Nm more, despite the Ford's 200kg greater mass. The fleet-spec Ford just out-grunts it. :D

If only it were as simple as that. Yes the Ford out-grunts the BMW...but how much more fuel is it using in doing so? Would it out-grunt a 4.0 BMW engine? Or even the 3.5 litre diesel? You have to realise there's more to cars than displacement and torque, although it is very nice to have.

It's like me saying "The Falcon's crap because it's 4.0 litre 6 isn't as fast or as powerful as BMW's 3.0 or TVR's 4.0 litre 6"...there's a lot more to consider than just that (the type of car and cost for a start).

[Clivey]

:) Australia is quite unique compared to England, its much larger compared to your postage stamp sized country:p . We actually go outside and tow boats trailers etc. Case in point was up the river the other day retrieving my boat from the ramp 1600kg, try pulling that out with you Mondeo:p no chance .
Aussies have grown up with large vehichles and the latest crop are great value for money and dynamically very good.If we are a backward country with our open spaces, blue skies ,temperate climate,sandy beaches and big cars. I wouldnt have it any other way. Now put on some sunscreen you white, pastey pom and keep out of that sun. Youre probably tanned and fit, but those generalisations can be quite cruel and incorrect.:)

Well that would be appropriate for someone who thinks that all Aussie cars are the same...If you read my post you'll see I was mainly asking about the car and questioning my own first thoughts. And about the "backwards-thinking comments", you'd have to be backwards (or so rich you don't have to care) to buy a 4.0 family saloon in the UK, unless you were willing to suck your bank manager's...never mind.

[Clivey]

Nota beat me to it in regards the fact the engine is a straight six (I said 24-valve in the review, which was a clue, but should have put straight-six as well, sorry).
The 0-100 time according to reports is about 7.7 secs (for the auto), which is roughly the same as that for a manual Mazda6 2.3 and slower than a manual Accord Euro 2.4. In-gear acceleration is different story as Nota points out.
Six clyinder, non-turbo Falcons are speed limited to 180km/h because that's what the driveshaft is rated up to to guarantee reliability. Besides, its pointless having the ability to go at even 180 km/h on a public road outside unlimited German autobahns. The V8s and XR6 Turbos get stronger driveshafts, hence no limiters. An XR6T or a Falcon GT will reach 240km/h plus.

Gotcha, this is the info I need...


Sideways cornering? Only if you turn the traction control off, have access to a racetrack and more driving ability than most people possess. Neither the XR6 or the XT will oversteer unless given extreme provacation - and for the safety of other road users that requires a race track.
The XT handles very well. Nota gave the raw figures. I can give you seat of the pants impression. Yes, the XT is biased towards comfort. However, given even allowing for that, the XT has excellent, well weighted steering with plenty of feedback, it turns in quickly (perhaps a touch too quick) and changes direction and responds to steering inputs quickly and smoothly. Ultimate handling tends towards understeer, and it rolls more than the XR6. The XR6 is certainly much better, but for a base model, the XT is damned good. In terms of the overall ride/handling compromise, there's not many better cars around - unless you pay lots more. And before you ask or compare it to smaller cars - the only smaller, more nimble cars I driven with better or equal handling than the XT are the Ford Mondeo you deride above, the Focus and the Mazda6. All products from the same engineering and chassis people - Ford and Mazda know how to make cars handle.

Everything other than the stuff in bold is useful to me but your comments about your Mondeo make me wonder if we're talking about the same car...I'm talking about the one that looks like Kermit the frog after a particularly nasty sledgehammer incident (as in my attachment). We (my family) have had the opportunity to drive three for quite a while, two Mk2 Mondeos (kermit), one 1.8 LX (dad's company car for a year), a 2.5V6 Ghia X Saloon and a Mk3 2.0 LX. The Mk3 is a massive improvement (aside from the indicator noise that sounds like a constipated duck) but the Mk2's were appauling in every way...they were poor handling cars with build quality consistent with sticking the parts together with spit.


The plastics on the BA Falcon are actually pretty good. Are you looking at pictures of the BA or the older AU design? BA interior is attached to my review.
Quality is an issue for Aussie manufacturers. I'll continue to slam them for it until they get it right. The quality concerns don't affect engine, suspension or electronic reliabiliy. They're more connected to a belief that when paying big dollars for a new car it should be close to perfect in the fit and finish area. That doesn't mean the rest of the package isn't right for the Aussie market, nor does it mean that the Falcon can't withstand huge distances. Plenty of Falcon taxis with 800,000km on the clock attest the the basic strength and reliability of the design.

I'm looking at the pics attached to post 1. It looks tacky and the interior looks "not-very-well-put together" when compared to, say a VW Passat, Vauxhall Vectra or Honda Accord. Yes, the mechanicals may be very good, tried and tested and that's all fine but is it one of these cases where trim rattles and squeaks after 20,000 miles?

For that price though it's justifiable, you'd pay over twice the price listed on Ford Australia's website for a genuine alternative car in the UK. It's much like our Corsa; it's got squeaky door trim and the doors rattle as they close but we paid just over £7k for it, which is a bargain over here.


I own a '97 Mondeo - its no barge. Handling is up to the mark compared to many other cars I've driven. Nor is it poor quality. Its a nine year old car which still drives very tightly and still has impressively strong body integrity, and no rattles or groans and no reliability dramas. And I've driven the '01 model in NZ - which is even better. Either your car was a lemon, or you're unfairly comparing it to hot hatches or sports cars.

I was mainly comparing our mondeo to our 1999 Vauxhall Vectra GLS, which was rock solid even after 125,000 miles...with only a squeaky driver's seat. The Mondeos were all absolute crap in comparison, and to Cyco: it wasn't just the one Mondeo that was a lemon: Both Mk2s were pieces of crap and so was our old Sierra...I'll explain my views on Fords later...

[Clivey]

For the guys here who havn't meet Clivey before, his father used to own TWO FordS and sounds like they were both a bit of a lemon as well as plenty of others we've driven - so no car that has anything to do with the Blue Oval can possibly be any good or ever pretend to perform well.

Actually you'll be pleased to know that I don't think all Fords are pants. I'm warming to the Falcon (although it makes no sense in the UK) and we have owned a Ford in the past that was MUCH better than any of the newer ones...a Cortina 1.6L. Better in almost every way than the Sierras and Mondeos that followed. I love '60's Mustangs (except the ones with deformed noses) and the Puma...don't make the mistake of accusing me of being such a simpleton.

[motorsportnerd]

I was mainly comparing our mondeo to our 1999 Vauxhall Vectra GLS, which was rock solid even after 125,000 miles...with only a squeaky driver's seat. The Mondeos were all absolute crap in comparison, and to Cyco: it wasn't just the one Mondeo that was a lemon: Both Mk2s were pieces of crap and so was our old Sierra...I'll explain my views on Fords later...

I'll get to some of your questions in a minute. But quickly, your experiences with the Mondeo are the opposite of mine, and go to show that no two cars are exactly the same. A quick check of sites such as carsurvey.org shows that Mondeo owners range from unhappy to very happy. I've heard of dramas with some and others with have done 100s of thousands of miles with no fuss. Ford's manufacturing techniques may be in question here more than the car itself. As for the rest of the car, unless badly wheel aligned, the Mk2 Mondeos handle just fine - try a Toyota Camry if you don't believe me. Main problem I have with the Mondeo is its gutless.
As for your Vectra - glad you're getting a good run, but I've heard absolute horror stories about them. At one stage in Australia there was a website set up be a disgruntled owner of a Holden Vectra (same car) highlighting how bad his car was. Carsurvey correspondents tend to be an unhappy lot as well. But the Vectra has hoardes of fans, so I'm sure there's plenty of happy customers out there.

[motorsportnerd]

I
Let's see your fuel economy figures. The "gutless" smaller engined cars start to make more sense when you have to pay out fuel costs...it's then you realise you don't actually "need" a huge engine, in the same way you don't "need" expensive clothing if it's going to break the bank.

MSN isn't exactly the law on cars so excuse me if I haven't read their reviews. I am simply just trying to gain information, and from that, yes the performance does seem impressive...but at what cost? I'm sure if that was the best way to make a car, hordes of other manufacturers would be doing the same thing now, as it is, Euro and Japanese manufacturers have built cars that are designed for their respective markets, just as Ford Australia and Holden have done.

1. Fuel consumption figures from my having driven some 2,500 km in Falcon BAs - averaged 10.5L/100km (22.4mpg) combination city/open road. So I agree, not great compared to smaller cars. I've seen figures as low as 9.0L/100km (26mpg) when driven gently.
Interestingly the Mazda6 I drove averaged only 8.0L/100km (29.4mpg), so despite the lower weight and smaller engine isn't much better.
2. I don't claim to be an authority, but I have had the chance to drive a fair few cars and can only report my own impressions. In the case of the Falcon, they seem to match the Aussie motoring journos.

[nota]

1. I'm betting your fuel prices are nowhere near as crushing as ours (ours can quite often be in the range of $2.20 AUS a litre!) Therefore anything with over a 2.0 litre engine isn't considered essential for family motoring. Therefore you can afford to drive cars with bigger engines.

2. Australian cars (Ford and Holden at least) are incredibly cheap to buy...from doing a straighforward currency conversion, you guys get your 4.0 Falcons for the same price we get 2.0 Mondeos.
In general appraisal it seems our petrol prices are approx half those in the UK, our cars are cheaper (as is beer, food etc) while sunshine tans & bikini perving is free

I've been gobsmacked for decades by the absurdly high prices charged in Britain for regular 'lower echelon' cars, eg Ford Vauxhall etc, despite their much greater production numbers (I guess). For example the last time I checked, the much smaller, much slower V6 Mondeo was actually more expensive (relatively) than Falcon XR6 Turbo - why is that? :confused:

3. Australia is a massive country, you could drive on a motorway no doubt for '00s of miles, which is when a big engine with an auto box comes into it's own.
Thankfully manual transmission is still the base-choice for Falcon, fyi

I would love for someone to tell me what I'm apparently biased against...personally I love the idea of a RWD 4.0 saloon car for that price but based on everything I've seen anywhere else, for a price like that you have to have a trade off, that's why I assumed handling was going to be one of them. If you said to someone outside of America or Australia "I'll give you a large 4.0 RWD saloon car for under £17k" they'd probably reply "What's the catch?" That's because previously in history we've become accustomed to cars like the Ford Crown Victoria from the USA. Cheap? Yes but a barge? Yes.
AFAIK Crown Vic V8s are much larger externally yet smaller internally with 'primitive' underpinnings and less performance than our completely unrelated local 6cyl Fords

Btw several respected motoring journos have remarked that base XT Falcon has a superior ride/handling compromise over Mercedes 6cyl E-Class (AU$96K)

My bad, I was taking a quick look at the Falcon on the Ford Australia website and got the engine sized mixed up. What sort of fuel economy do they manage?
With 6speed auto, XR6 atmo is Govt-rated at 10.2 km/L (mixed driving)

According to the trip computer a friend's Falcon 5.4 24-valve V8 (3 y/o SOHC with 4speed auto) averages 20-22mpg in gentle city drving. She often tows a double horse float @ approx 15mpg. A factory-LPG 'E Gas' Falcon may return the cost-equivalent of 40mpg, more or less (dependant on local LPG prices)

We expect around 32 mpg (combined) from our family cars, anything else is very expensive to run in the UK. That's why Lexus (according to Whatcar? magazine) wont sell the 3.0 litre version of the new IS200 here, it wont sell because people can't afford to run it. They were better off focussing on the diesel version for this market.
For comparison, lethargic IS200 is oft criticised here for lack of mumbo, buyers prefer IS300 and desire the (unavailable) V8

Let's see your fuel economy figures. The "gutless" smaller engined cars start to make more sense when you have to pay out fuel costs...it's then you realise you don't actually "need" a huge engine, in the same way you don't "need" expensive clothing if it's going to break the bank.
How long is a piece of string? "Need" is relative (in your connotation) so why don't you yourself choose to own a 660cc Smart car, or Reliant Robin? Or a Rolls Cunardly?

As Charged alludes to, our cars need to be versatile and towing is often a big factor in buyer considerations. One size fits all, in other words. How would Falcon 6cyl's rated towing capacity of 2300kg compare to euro sedans including BMW etc?


If you drive pretty much any car over 180km/h you can guarantee you're not going to be particulatly concerned about fuel economy...the reason for the whole fuel thing was made clear above. I was just wondering why the car was limited.
Your criticism of global warming AND top speed within one sentence obliged my response in kind

If only it were as simple as that. Yes the Ford out-grunts the BMW...but how much more fuel is it using in doing so? Would it out-grunt a 4.0 BMW engine? Or even the 3.5 litre diesel? You have to realise there's more to cars than displacement and torque, although it is very nice to have.

Comparisons between engines of similar capacity are indeed an entertaining exercise as far as an psuedo-intellectual wank goes. You have to realise that cars are consumer products and thus, in the real world, a buyer's purchase selection is based on price and constrained by price (ie fair judgement) not some grandiose purism. In other words, value for money and product performance remain the arbiters of most purchases

Compared to BMW 540i, a Fairmont Ghia V8 might in subjective terms offer 110% of the space, 100% of power, the same ZF transmission and perhaps 70% of the features (<my guestimation) yet the Ford is a mere >40%< of the price


It's like me saying "The Falcon's crap because it's 4.0 litre 6 isn't as fast or as powerful as BMW's 3.0 or TVR's 4.0 litre 6"...there's a lot more to consider than just that (the type of car and cost for a start).
Indeed

That a AU$30k Falcon 'fleet special' offers comparable road-handling and is 0.8 seconds quicker during 80-120km/h overtakes than AU$94k BMW 330Ci is not hypothetical - nor is the $60k difference :p

[SlickHolden]

I admit that I've not really looked at Australian cars in detail because they just arent relevant for me; in the same way that i's not really relevant for you to compare a UK-spec Vauxhall Vectra with a VW Passat when you live in Australia. So yes, I don't know much about the car(s) and that's why I'm questioning them.

I don't "need" to believe in anything...it's not as if there's a case of national or continental pride at stake. I realise that in your country there is a market for that sort of vehicle for a reason:

1. I'm betting your fuel prices are nowhere near as crushing as ours (ours can quite often be in the range of $2.20 AUS a litre!) Therefore anything with over a 2.0 litre engine isn't considered essential for family motoring. Therefore you can afford to drive cars with bigger engines.

2. Australian cars (Ford and Holden at least) are incredibly cheap to buy...from doing a straighforward currency conversion, you guys get your 4.0 Falcons for the same price we get 2.0 Mondeos.

3. Australia is a massive country, you could drive on a motorway no doubt for '00s of miles, which is when a big engine with an auto box comes into it's own.
).
1: See you answered that one yourself, Big 6's in this country are the norm, Fuel prices might be high right now but they are far from to high to drive.

2:.. We have the reputation around the world for making large RWD cars with big engines and quality for a great price.

3:. No really true my sisters little 1.6lt can do around 6L per 100 in the highways, But on a hot day stick the A/C on and it blows out plus performance is tested strained. My brother just drove to Queensland with his family a full car of 5, By the way he owns a 2003 Ford BA Fairmont 4lt auto:D, Hes fuel economy going up and back was great, He got about 750km to a full tank. Which including plenty of driving around the up there. This was with heat up to 40deg.

We have big six's here thats because we dont only have maybe a large family but we might decide to tow a trailer or caravan etc.
For a example if the Holden and Ford come with 2lt engines, even smaller in size and weight then what would happen when you wanted to tow or take 5 adults in your car? No 5 adults and no towing things like caravans things that are heavy etc. So then you might need a Ute, Then you say to yourself if only they had a nice large car that could do it all without buying 2 cars:(.. Falcon & Commodore can do it all.:D

[fpv_gtho]

With those speed limiters...

Maybe its a NZ thing that the XR6 was limited at 180km/h as here only the utes, wagons and Territory are that slow. The sedans with the 2 piece tailshaft are limited at 200km/h for XT and Futura, 210 for Fairmont and Fairmont Ghia, 230km/h for the XR's and performance utes and 250km/h for the FPV sedans.

[SlickHolden]

I would like to find someone other then wheels motor mag etc that can get the space to get the cars up to them speeds:p.
My brother snuck in a 210kp/h but it was tight and he backed off fast.

[clutch-monkey]

I was mainly comparing our mondeo to our 1999 Vauxhall Vectra GLS, which was rock solid even after 125,000 miles...with only a squeaky driver's seat. The Mondeos were all absolute crap in comparison, and to Cyco: it wasn't just the one Mondeo that was a lemon: Both Mk2s were pieces of crap and so was our old Sierra...I'll explain my views on Fords later...
lol i've only had experience with one mondeo - the model in your picture - and that was after it had been used in a mine for 4 years :D i won't list all the stuff i had to clean/replace etc to turn it into something driveable :D

[SlickHolden]

lol i've only had experience with one mondeo - the model in your picture - and that was after it had been used in a mine for 4 years :D i won't list all the stuff i had to clean/replace etc to turn it into something driveable :D
Any cats or foreign human objects in there:eek:?

[fpv_gtho]

I would like to find someone other then wheels motor mag etc that can get the space to get the cars up to them speeds:p.
My brother snuck in a 210kp/h but it was tight and he backed off fast.

Ford can limit the torque through first gear to protect the gearboxes, any bet they can do the same for the final gear to inhibit speeding

[clutch-monkey]

Any cats or foreign human objects in there:eek:?
i washed a ton of coal dust out of the seats :D should've seen the air filter...

[SlickHolden]

Ford can limit the torque through first gear to protect the gearboxes, any bet they can do the same for the final gear to inhibit speeding
Yep thats what he said to. And after the serves they also reset many things they are speed buggers:D.
The bloke i spoke to about it was brutally honest at what Ford has done to limit many things, He said anything that works off the ECU is open for adjusting, Which is good for them they can get extra from it, That was herrod i spoke to.
I made out i was my brother and he had a big list for improvements.
This vortex thing on the throttle body.
Torque converter,
They can even adjust our fav thing, the drive by wire:D My brother loved that.
Flash tunner which they can program anything including the Auto shifts.
Wasn't cheap but on the performance side it might be worth it.
Faster take offs.
About 15kw @ the wheels more.
And better fuel economy then the factory ECU allows. And toss away the limiter.

[SlickHolden]

i washed a ton of coal dust out of the seats :D should've seen the air filter...
Like it was buried under coal for 10 years?.
I thought i had it bad with work sites with my car but it didn't go under ground:eek:.

[clutch-monkey]

Like it was buried under coal for 10 years?.
I thought i had it bad with work sites with my car but it didn't go under ground:eek:.
it seriously looked like coal had been dumped all over it and inside it, the rear windscreen was pitted too

[SlickHolden]

How did you clean that?

[clutch-monkey]

How did you clean that?
with great difficulty :) lots of soapy water for the interior, replaced the airbox, spark plugs, changed the oil etc etc, and then ended up using cut and polish on the rear window....

[fpv_gtho]

Yep thats what he said to. And after the serves they also reset many things they are speed buggers:D.
The bloke i spoke to about it was brutally honest at what Ford has done to limit many things, He said anything that works off the ECU is open for adjusting, Which is good for them they can get extra from it, That was herrod i spoke to.
I made out i was my brother and he had a big list for improvements.
This vortex thing on the throttle body.
Torque converter,
They can even adjust our fav thing, the drive by wire:D My brother loved that.
Flash tunner which they can program anything including the Auto shifts.
Wasn't cheap but on the performance side it might be worth it.
Faster take offs.
About 15kw @ the wheels more.
And better fuel economy then the factory ECU allows. And toss away the limiter.

Yeah thats the big difference between the flash tuner and something like the Unichip, the flash tuner actually remaps the ECU rather than tricking it with false codes.

That'd be the helix spacer. Dunno if its at all related to how gun chambers are now swirled, but i think it increases the intake charge = more powa!

Big thing with the drive by wire is of course Ford would have done heaps of development sorting bugs and finding out the best compromise, so if some tuner just advances all the settings something could go out of wack.

Herrod charge more for theirs i think, CAPA flog them off for about a grand without a custom setting which would really be what you want.

Be careful with the limiters though. Im pretty sure they cant be physically removed so theyre just as likely to be set at 9000rpm and 400km/h. I dont think Herrod generally go over about 6300-6500 without different engine internals. Without different cams it'd be a waste to go higher anyway.

Stiffening up the shifts will also come at a cost. They make the car go and definately feel faster, but probably worth it alot more if you upgrade the tranny while your at it. At least upgrade the oil cooler.

[SlickHolden]

Yeah thats the big difference between the flash tuner and something like the Unichip, the flash tuner actually remaps the ECU rather than tricking it with false codes.

That'd be the helix spacer. Dunno if its at all related to how gun chambers are now swirled, but i think it increases the intake charge = more powa!

Big thing with the drive by wire is of course Ford would have done heaps of development sorting bugs and finding out the best compromise, so if some tuner just advances all the settings something could go out of wack.

Herrod charge more for theirs i think, CAPA flog them off for about a grand without a custom setting which would really be what you want.

Be careful with the limiters though. Im pretty sure they cant be physically removed so theyre just as likely to be set at 9000rpm and 400km/h. I dont think Herrod generally go over about 6300-6500 without different engine internals. Without different cams it'd be a waste to go higher anyway.

Stiffening up the shifts will also come at a cost. They make the car go and definately feel faster, but probably worth it alot more if you upgrade the tranny while your at it. At least upgrade the oil cooler.
Knowing my brother he would do it and stuff it all up and reset the ECU and call them to come and replace his car:p.
That was one thing we noticed under his insurance if the car is out of action they need to replace it with atleast the same spec or better. And if it's toast they will replace it up to $30,000. So MK II here he comes lolj/k's:D.

He really wants launch speed he was not happy when a VP beat him at all and he keep-ed saying on the freeway your mine but off the mark:mad:. I haven't herd from him in weeks so i ddont know what he is doing now?

[SlickHolden]

with great difficulty :) lots of soapy water for the interior, replaced the airbox, spark plugs, changed the oil etc etc, and then ended up using cut and polish on the rear window....
Bet your arms almost fell off after the clean.
I'm lazy i did a big clean and still am slowly doing what everyone can't see:D.

[fpv_gtho]

Thats what happens when you try push a 1700kg car with a first gear that'll do 80km/h

[SlickHolden]

I'm lucky i only do 65-70:D

[Clivey]

OK, to summarise what I was meaning to say;

I wasn't trying to slag-off the car without knowing anything about it, I was just questioning the car, bearing in mind that large cars with large engines for tiny prices usually mean (in the UK and in the US) that there's a catch. I was wondering if it was the handling but now, I have one other question for you:

Compare the attached photos of the UK Mondeo's interior with the AUS Falcon's posted by motorsportnerd. Which one looks as though it's less of a parts-bin special and higher quality? Maybe interior design quality is slightly down on the Falcon as a sort of "way" of keeping the price down? Once again, not saying this IS the case, just that it MIGHT BE.

And as an answer to fuel and car prices in the UK, we pay 17.5% Value Added Tax to the government for most things but the tax is MASSIVE on fuel. This goes some way to a possible explanation, but I suspect the main reason is that companies just feel like they can get away with it! The reason for ~2.5 litre diesel pick-ups being popular in the UK at the moment is that they are classed as commercial vehicles = less tax to pay. Meaning you can get a well specced pick-up for the same price as a well specced Mondeo or Vectra.

[fpv_gtho]

Mate its a well known fact that European cars are built to a higher standard than American or Australian cars, and thats reflected the most in the interior. Its probably part of the reason why so many people outside of Europe think theyre snobs...

The pics themselves dont show much anyway. Alot of the percieved advantage the Mondeo has could or could not be down to the quality of a press release photograph, as opposed to something needing little thought, just to give a broad view. I CNBF'd looking to see if its been already said, but the interior plastics used locally have generally been very hard and harsh for a reason, as the abuse some people give their cars, which may stay with an owner for 10 years at a time here, can be pretty severe, as can the temperature and other conditions. That doesnt give them the best feel or finish to a passenger however.

[SlickHolden]

OK, to summarise what I was meaning to say;

I wasn't trying to slag-off the car without knowing anything about it, I was just questioning the car, bearing in mind that large cars with large engines for tiny prices usually mean (in the UK and in the US) that there's a catch. I was wondering if it was the handling but now, I have one other question for you:

Compare the attached photos of the UK Mondeo's interior with the AUS Falcon's posted by motorsportnerd. Which one looks as though it's less of a parts-bin special and higher quality? Maybe interior design quality is slightly down on the Falcon as a sort of "way" of keeping the price down? Once again, not saying this IS the case, just that it MIGHT BE.

And as an answer to fuel and car prices in the UK, we pay 17.5% Value Added Tax to the government for most things but the tax is MASSIVE on fuel. This goes some way to a possible explanation, but I suspect the main reason is that companies just feel like they can get away with it! The reason for ~2.5 litre diesel pick-ups being popular in the UK at the moment is that they are classed as commercial vehicles = less tax to pay. Meaning you can get a well specced pick-up for the same price as a well specced Mondeo or Vectra.
Very true what FPV says about or weather conditions here many interiors made by local car makers needs to be on the hard tuff side to survive the weather we have, Rain has been missing but we have had some this year, But we can go many days of 30+ deg, Some days like last year can top 45-47 deg, That would be hell on a nice touchy interior:).
But Ford share some interior parts with Jag or Aston? It's one of them can't think which one.
And most Australians don't have garages even though new house's built now 99% would be built with them. But i would hate to see a European interior in Australia in our summer for 15 years:eek: My interior has keeped up pretty good because it's on the tuffer harder side for our conditions. Get some Aussies slamming there beers into the dash's lol j/k's:p Empty of course:D

[adrenaline]

500 POSTS. (This is a milestone for me :D:D)

Now back to business....

Lets even things up ;)

[fpv_gtho]

It shares a passing resemblance to the current Aston Martin interiors, with the prominent centre column, but i dont know if they'd go so far as to share parts.

[adrenaline]

No parts sharing, just similar looks (the centre console of an aston prolly costs more than an XT:rolleyes: :D:D)

[SlickHolden]

Hey 500 woohoo:D Congrats.
Even if only in looks it's pretty good, I got the VY V6 guard badges and i laugh at the VY owners that look at myn:p I say what you paid over $30,000 to have them i paid just $20:p:p

[Blitz_]

OK, to summarise what I was meaning to say;

I wasn't trying to slag-off the car without knowing anything about it, I was just questioning the car, bearing in mind that large cars with large engines for tiny prices usually mean (in the UK and in the US) that there's a catch. I was wondering if it was the handling but now, I have one other question for you:

Compare the attached photos of the UK Mondeo's interior with the AUS Falcon's posted by motorsportnerd. Which one looks as though it's less of a parts-bin special and higher quality? Maybe interior design quality is slightly down on the Falcon as a sort of "way" of keeping the price down? Once again, not saying this IS the case, just that it MIGHT BE.

And as an answer to fuel and car prices in the UK, we pay 17.5% Value Added Tax to the government for most things but the tax is MASSIVE on fuel. This goes some way to a possible explanation, but I suspect the main reason is that companies just feel like they can get away with it! The reason for ~2.5 litre diesel pick-ups being popular in the UK at the moment is that they are classed as commercial vehicles = less tax to pay. Meaning you can get a well specced pick-up for the same price as a well specced Mondeo or Vectra.


Studio vs. Amatuer shot? thats like comparing chalk and cheese lmfao.

[Clivey]

Studio vs. Amatuer shot? thats like comparing chalk and cheese lmfao.

It was the biggest pic of the whole dash of the Mondeo I could find, are there any media shots of the Falcon showing the whole dash, not just the centre console and steering wheel?

[fpv_gtho]

Heres a start: http://ford.com.au/range/falcon/views/interior.asp

[Falcon500]

It shares a passing resemblance to the current Aston Martin interiors, with the prominent centre column, but i dont know if they'd go so far as to share parts.
Well dont forget the majority of fpvs staff are ex tickford ;) i dont think its a coincidence :p

[fpv_gtho]

Ah yes but i think FPV in the majority of cases are told to work with what theyre given, although that probably changed when Prodrive got involved.

For those not in the know, the now retired David Flint, who ran Tickford Australia since its inception was the ex Aston Martin CEO guy

[SlickHolden]

Ahh maybe thats the connection with Aston, Even jag has the similar centre screen, I seen a pic of a 05 model very similar but hard to tell as they use black a bit and i cant find a big good pic.

[motorsportnerd]

Compare the attached photos of the UK Mondeo's interior with the AUS Falcon's posted by motorsportnerd. Which one looks as though it's less of a parts-bin special and higher quality? Maybe interior design quality is slightly down on the Falcon as a sort of "way" of keeping the price down? Once again, not saying this IS the case, just that it MIGHT BE.


No doubting where the inspiration for the Falcon's dashboard came from - Ford Australia made no secret of the fact they used the Mondeo's dash as a starting point.
As to quality - I have driven the current Mondeo while in NZ. The plastics seemed hard and coarse to me - but were well put together. Being the newer design, it seemed to me the Falcon has the higher quality, better "feel" dashboard plastics - though they are still pretty hard and coarse. And having driven numerous BA Falcon's I've yet to have reason to criticise how well put together the Falcon's dash is - it is well built.

[Falcon500]

One of the things that bugs me is that european cars have tendancy of expiring where our cars just keep going.....so you have options sitting there with a radio knob in your hand or sitting their waiting for a tow truck...i dont know about you but i can live with out a radio ;)

[fpv_gtho]

I think where reliability became more of a concern for us than for Europeans is how many of us may find themselves 200 miles in the middle of nowhere trying to get somewhere, whilst with how populated Europe has become, your never too far away from help.

[clutch-monkey]

^ reminds me of a certain Saab at 3am in the morning on the outskirts of Canberra :D :D

[Falcon500]

I think where reliability became more of a concern for us than for Europeans is how many of us may find themselves 200 miles in the middle of nowhere trying to get somewhere, whilst with how populated Europe has become, your never too far away from help.
fair comment i was more being immture and as difficult as some people who are ragging on the locals :p

But still the thought of lucas electric equiped car going zap on the side of the autobahn and tilt tray being needed isnt a thought i like the idea of (and apprently you get fined for breaking down running out of fuel in some countrys along the autobahn)

[SlickHolden]

I was stuck in the middle of nowhere with 200km from home, I got home with 2 gears:D I don't think many overseas cars would do that when 40deg heat outside and 300,000km ish on the clock. Not even once did it over heat.

[Cyco]

^ reminds me of a certain Saab at 3am in the morning

Running fast and fine till u hoppped behind the wheel :p

[Blue Supra]

^^^ now now boys. I knew i shoulve just dropped you both home :p

[clutch-monkey]

you said it could take the abuse! :D:p

[Blue Supra]

europeans cant take abuse from aussie convicts and colonists... i thought we all knew that :rolleyes:

[clutch-monkey]

well, after that one british girl i see your point

[Falcon500]

europeans cant take abuse from aussie convicts and colonists... i thought we all knew that :rolleyes:
Case in point whens the last time you saw sweedan in the rugby world cup?

[Blue Supra]

errr...

never?

[muso]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and an Aussie, I must admit our local cars can seem a bit rough in some areas of quality control but they are usually ironed out and are sometimes (like nearly all cars) re-called to fix problems, however I like both Holden and Ford and I look at the BA XR series and the VY SS as the best looking hairy chested family cars available, the BA falcon is as far as I know entirely Australian built in Geelong. I am also proud when I see that our holden Gen 3 V8 Monaros are being exported to the USA as GTO's and the VY SS to Saudi Arabia as Lumina SS's.

The large car with big powerful engines with rear wheel drive culture is sacred here in this great country and will probably never die.....thank God:)

Your average BA Falcon XT or Commodore executive is built on a tight budget by these two companies as they have to keep the prices around the 32K mark and for the money I think Holden and Ford do a sterling job by building a car at these retail prices and yet giving the perception both inside and outside of being a far more expensive car.......Good on ya Ford and Holden:D

Hey Falcon 500 congrats on the lean muscle weight gain 21 kg is excellent for the time frame, I've gained about 10 or so kg since March with bench press workouts with chicken and hard boiled eggs after.:D

[adrenaline]

The large car with big powerful engines with rear wheel drive culture is sacred here in this great country and will probably never die.....thank God:)

Your average BA Falcon XT or Commodore executive is built on a tight budget by these two companies as they have to keep the prices around the 32K mark


Some would say the large car is on death row. Also, these days you'd be referring to a BF XT Falcon or a VE Omega - around the 34k mark.

Welcome to the forums :)

[Clivey]

One of the things that bugs me is that european cars have tendancy of expiring where our cars just keep going.....so you have options sitting there with a radio knob in your hand or sitting their waiting for a tow truck...i dont know about you but i can live with out a radio ;)

Ah yes, but there is a VERY good reason for that...

...you see, you Australians can afford to run large displacement engines, which aren't tuned very highly (low stress), so whilst you still get good performance because of the sheer size of the engine, it still lasts longer.

Us Europeans demand lower short term running costs, so we adopt a different strategy. Smaller capacity engines in a higher state of tune. So whereas you use a 4.0-litre 6-cylinder to produce 250-ish BHP, we'd be using just a 3.0-litre.

And as we know from racing, engines in a higher state of tune don't last as long and also need more maintenence. Fortunately, our recent emphasis on diesel power provides us with both performance and longevity. My Astra for example, can go upto 30,000 miles without needing a service...!

[SlickHolden]

But also we demand more from our cars and we also might have more open roads to travel,, But we tow with our cars family in them shop in them drag in them it's the full Monty:D.

[Clivey]

But also we demand more from our cars and we also might have more open roads to travel,, But we tow with our cars family in them shop in them drag in them it's the full Monty:D.

We do the whole family / shopping thing but in the UK, if you drag you're more-or less guaranteed a fistful of speeding tickets and a lynching from a mob of misinformed, mealy-mouthed, easily offended, do-gooder sons-of-bitches.

And also, you'd find that you wouldn't even want to try towing if you had to pay our fuel prices...!

:mad:

[clutch-monkey]

Ah yes, but there is a VERY good reason for that...

...you see, you Australians can afford to run large displacement engines, which aren't tuned very highly (low stress), so whilst you still get good performance because of the sheer size of the engine, it still lasts longer.

Us Europeans demand lower short term running costs, so we adopt a different strategy. Smaller capacity engines in a higher state of tune. So whereas you use a 4.0-litre 6-cylinder to produce 250-ish BHP, we'd be using just a 3.0-litre.

And as we know from racing, engines in a higher state of tune don't last as long and also need more maintenence. Fortunately, our recent emphasis on diesel power provides us with both performance and longevity. My Astra for example, can go upto 30,000 miles without needing a service...!
it's probably incidental rather than deliberate but running larger, less stressed engines means tuners can have their way with it and get easy gains with simple mods, not to mention huge horsepower if you really want it :) i think the XR6 turbo for example gets 400hp with under a grand in mods, and can get up to 500-600 reasonably easy?

[fpv_gtho]

300kw for about $1K as you say, and about 400kw for $6K. Anything more you need to start paying alot more as you need to upgrade the rods, turbo, intake etc. Even for 300kw you need new valve springs, injectors and intercooler because the stock units are underengineered to deter people doing this sort of stuff with a simple hack of the ECU.

[SlickHolden]

We do the whole family / shopping thing but in the UK, if you drag you're more-or less guaranteed a fistful of speeding tickets and a lynching from a mob of misinformed, mealy-mouthed, easily offended, do-gooder sons-of-bitches.

And also, you'd find that you wouldn't even want to try towing if you had to pay our fuel prices...!

:mad:
LOL drag racing but legal track racing:D

[muso]

I was just pulling the Ford XT and Holden Executive out of a hat as an example since the competition in the large car steaks got really fierce in 2002 with the release of the BA Falcon range, but really since it is 2007 the XT and Omega is more appropriate.

I think that possibly the LPG rebate may save the large car culture here, I feel that there would be a large number of people who would rather convert to gas than go front wheel drive smaller car as the family car, LPG installations and reliability is improving especially with the direct injection LPG kits available now.
Cheers for the welcome Adrenaline.

[SlickHolden]

These LPG installers need to really lift there game fast as many seem backyard like and it's amazing how many people have complaints.
It's fine the government wants to give rebates for LPG conversions, But now every man and his dog wants to install them, Like the GST accountants is the in thing :D.

[Clivey]

LPG: FAIL.

Reasons? Less boot space, more weight, less performance, more re-fuelling and an ugly second fuel cap on the bodywork.

Bio-ethanol: FTW.

Reasons? Same fuel tank, same weight, better performance and better for the planet AND you can tell those enviro-c*nts to **** off! :p

[clutch-monkey]

i want ethanol in full force in QLD, i mean what the hell else are the sugar cane growers doing apart from going broke. make use of your damn crops, they're perfect for making ethanol damnit

[IBrake4Rainbows]

they're sugar cane farmers - they do nothing but whinge. and get drunk.

like Pom's who live in warm weather :)

[2ndclasscitizen]

Bio-ethanol: FTW.

Reasons? Same fuel tank, same weight, better performance and better for the planet AND you can tell those enviro-c*nts to **** off! :p


Better performance only because it's a higher RON rating so you can push up comp ratios, advance timing etc, it actually contains less energy than petrol. And it can set off people's allergies, and it can and will blow carbies (I know this from experience :mad:) and it will corrode every bit of metal in your fuel system.

[muso]

Yes there needs to be tighter regulations to stop backyard fitters, I also can't believe that in 2007 most cars fitted with LPG still have the gas carby venturi systems rather than direct injection.
LPG has been available in Australia since about 1979 so they could have at least phased out gas venturi systems about around the time that cars were becoming available with EFI (about 1985 I think)
I guess they did not have the technology nor the demand for LPG injection then.

My LPG system has been great fitted to a VT commodore wagon with the donut tank where the spare was and the spare mounted to one side without too much loss of cargo space, I think I was lucky to find a good fitter because some friends of mine have had all kinds of problems with systems and fitters alike.

[SlickHolden]

LPG: FAIL.

Reasons? Less boot space, more weight, less performance, more re-fuelling and an ugly second fuel cap on the bodywork.

Bio-ethanol: FTW.

Reasons? Same fuel tank, same weight, better performance and better for the planet AND you can tell those enviro-c*nts to **** off! :p
That's why we are lucky large boots:D, Where a LPG in my old car would sit i have a large box and sub there and i still fit 4 boxes of 2lt diet cokes in there.. That's 32 2lt's plus shopping.. The Box weighs 27kg on it's own sub? 12" big bitch of a thing:D.


Backyarder LPG fitters FTL!:p.

[fpv_gtho]

I think the older LPG systems are still surviving because theyre anything from 20-40% the price of the direct injection systems. With the government rebates, Ford offer their system at $400 now and Holdens dealer fitted system is still over $1000 despite twice as much rebate.

[SlickHolden]

Hey didn't we smart Aussies make a refuel for the LPG in the existing re fuller hole??.

[fpv_gtho]

Dont know. If we did, it would assumably be Ford when they had both the dedicated LPG Falcon as well as the dual-fuel option. Right now they only sell petrol-only and lpg-only.

[muso]

Mine has the double filler caps behind the fuel lid, I wouldn't let someone take to my car with a Jig Saw and put a gaping after market hole in it for all the world to see.

I think all after market systems these days utilize both fill points behind the fuel lid.