favourite motorsport?

[Mustang]

What is your favourite type of motorsport.

[IL Duce]

GOOD !! a 100% score for WRC :D

[Mustang]

GOOD !! a 100% score for WRC :D

Definitely the best motorsport i think,
but the poll has only been open 5 mins so lets hope it stays like that.

[Niko_Fx]

What is your favourite type of motorsport.

F1 and WRC, but I think WRC can be a little more exiting. But both are great and pilots must have exelent skills.

[Mustang]

F1 and WRC, but I think WRC can be a little more exiting. But both are great and pilots must have exelent skills.

Very true and still 100% WRC. YAY :D

[Misho]

i apologise for breaking the 100% WRC score !!

[henk4]

Le Mans, and if possible historic.

[Deckard]

Yeah, I broke it as well.

I've always been a F1 kind of a guy.

I like WRC but it doesn't really get any coverage here.

[NAZCA C2]

I would have to say WRC is my favorite, the drivers are the best in the world. Le Mans style sportscar racing would be the best if there was major involvement by the big car companies.

What about motorcycle racing, if you like stuff that goes fast you have to like Moto GP. Last year at Suzuka some of the Moto GP bikes were doing about 210mph!!!

[fpv_gtho]

For me it just doesn't get any better than V8 Supercars. The combination of the 50 year Ford vs Holden Rivalry put on the track, the capabilities of these cars (1350kg, 620hp), the drama on the track which at times erupts into such incidents like that seen at the final round last year. All of these things any many more makes it the most exciting motorsport for me.

[bum-man]

1. F1
2. WRC
3. Le Mans
4. DTM

[kiwitt]

However, if there was a "World Sports Saloon/Coupe" Series (a.k.a. Group A/N), this would be of interest, because of the variety of cars competing. I believe the V8 supercars is just a Sponsors Holden vs Ford battle. (e.g. the Shell Ford vs the Mobil Holden etc.)

I would like to see a series of "normally" slightly modified for safety reasons, (roll cage, racetrack slick tires, no suspension, no engine modifications) series.
This would be a low cost series, which would require minimal sponsorship and any person could start in.

This would have the normal Holden's and Ford's versus the BMW's, Mercedes, Audi and the Japanese and Americans. The series would include cars from all countries.

Each country would run their own series, with the winners racing in a one-off final at a famous track, (e.g. nuremburg, silverstone, daytona, etc.) which would rotate each year to whoever, one the last series.

[fpv_gtho]

However, if there was a "World Sports Saloon/Coupe" Series (a.k.a. Group A/N), this would be of interest, because of the variety of cars competing. I believe the V8 supercars is just a Sponsors Holden vs Ford battle. (e.g. the Shell Ford vs the Mobil Holden etc.)


The last thing the V8 Supercars is, is a sponsors battle. Everyone is in there for the thrill of driving and the competition aspect of it. If it was simply a sponsors battle then it wouldn't be the worlds best touring car category

[kiwitt]

OK, it may be the "best" touring car category at the moment. But to have near identical looking cars, and the race commentators calling each car by it's sponsors prefix (e.g. the "Shell Ford" and "Mobil Holden" )it sounds like a sponsors battle from an outsiders standpoint. They don't call the F1 like that (e.g. the Malboro Ferrari, or the West McLaren, etc.)

I used to love touring car racing, in the days of the Sierra RS500s, Jaguar XJSs, Mazda RX-7s, BMW M3s and 635s, Nissan Skylines, Chevrolet Camaros, and the Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores. When the non-Aussie V8 cars were dropped, I lost interest. I believe, if you can't compete, get better, not change the rules. I more like to see a competition of makes, than a competition of drivers, which was my original point for wanting a better "Touring Car" series. (Even WRC have more competing makes.)

[fpv_gtho]

OK, it may be the "best" touring car category at the moment. But to have near identical looking cars, and the race commentators calling each car by it's sponsors prefix (e.g. the "Shell Ford" and "Mobil Holden" )it sounds like a sponsors battle from an outsiders standpoint. They don't call the F1 like that (e.g. the Malboro Ferrari, or the West McLaren, etc.)

anyone with a good eye will be able to pick the cars apart. they only get called by their sponsors because its the sponsorship liveries that set the cars apart. not only that, but theres over 30 cars competing in the V8 Supercars and only 10 teams in F1 running 2 cars each. in V8 Supercars theres probably getting close to 20 teams competing so you can see why it may get easier for the commentators, of which only 1 (neil crompton) has any legitimate racing experience

[kiwitt]

Yes, I understand V8 Supercars is popular, for the reason you say. The Competition is good (20 teams and 30 cars ). I don't mean to offend supporters of V8 supercars. They are popular with Aussie's and Kiwi's alike.

I just like to see more competition from other makes on the track and a series as I suggested earlier dedicated to this. (Leaving the V8 Supercars as their own class because they are so much different to their "real" world namesakes.) So performance car buyers can make real comparisons.

[fpv_gtho]

well Nations Cup wouldve been a good category, had Holden and the organisers PROCAR not signed a contract letting Holden practically race V8 Supercars in there

[Ferrari Tifosi]

F1 has and always been my favorite category of motorsports. However, my second choice isn't even on there, Moto GP, the F1 of Motorcycles. Third is sports car racing, whether it be the FIA Sports car and GT champ. or the ALMS series. Finally WRC is my fourth favorite motorsport.

[Matra et Alpine]

However, my second choice isn't even on there, Moto GP, the F1 of Motorcycles.
If we're allowed to add, then top would be "Road Racing".
The best of motorbikes on real road circuits.
Isle of Man TT - the pinnacle ( for now )
and the North-West 200.
Manx GP.

Shame is that now none of the big riders will come, some of the best teams are dropping out to 'focus' where the best TV coverage is rather than the fans.
50,000 bikers descend on the Isle of Man for one week of the year to watch the best racing going :) )

[NAZCA C2]

I forgot about the Isle of Man TT. 190+ mph on city streets with 2 wheels. The TT riders are bravest/craziest riders in the world.

Moto GP rules!

[byronleehk]

However, if there was a "World Sports Saloon/Coupe" Series (a.k.a. Group A/N), this would be of interest, because of the variety of cars competing. I believe the V8 supercars is just a Sponsors Holden vs Ford battle. (e.g. the Shell Ford vs the Mobil Holden etc.)

I would like to see a series of "normally" slightly modified for safety reasons, (roll cage, racetrack slick tires, no suspension, no engine modifications) series.
This would be a low cost series, which would require minimal sponsorship and any person could start in.

This would have the normal Holden's and Ford's versus the BMW's, Mercedes, Audi and the Japanese and Americans. The series would include cars from all countries.

Each country would run their own series, with the winners racing in a one-off final at a famous track, (e.g. nuremburg, silverstone, daytona, etc.) which would rotate each year to whoever, one the last series.

Back in 1993 they did a "Touring Car Challenge" in Monza, Italy whith over 40 best drivers from all over Europe and did one race..."You take the world's best 40+ Touring Car drivers and best cars (BMW, Ford, Audi, Alfa Romeo, Vaxhall, Nissan & more) and set them loose for two races at Monza, Italy. The results is nothing short of apectulay and chaotic!".

And guess what? I found this item on e-bay!! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42867&item=3393069520)

But personally, I like any race on ROAD COURSES, be it 2 wheels or four, be it JTCC, BTCC, DTM, F-1, CART, or even NASCAR :)

[Matra et Alpine]

I forgot about the Isle of Man TT. 190+ mph on city streets with 2 wheels. The TT riders are bravest/craziest riders in the world.
The same riders pretty much but the other road races are scarier.
Mass starts at the NorthWest 200 in Ireland and The Southern 100 on the Isle of Man.
And spectators get within inches.
here a clip from last year :) www.bad-boy.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/videos/100_3872.mov :)
I'll u/l some photos to enjoy later.
HIGHLY recommend IoM first week in June each year as THE place to holiday for petrolheads - especially if you like to drink and party, plenty of busses to all the good places to watch :)

[NAZCA C2]

Hey Matra did u ever see the Macau GP? It's a motorcycle race on a street circuit surrounded with metal barriers. No runoff room whatsoever!

[Matra et Alpine]

Hey Matra did u ever see the Macau GP? It's a motorcycle race on a street circuit surrounded with metal barriers. No runoff room whatsoever!
Yeh, but it's short-track street circuit as opposed to road.
Top speeds are lower and the experience is not as challenging in respect of track, but more because of the massed start. And you can't get to ride it yourself :)

IoM TT is 37+ miles, you only get 2-6 (dependant on the race) chances at getting a corner right in the whole race :)
The AVERAGE speed is 120mph PLUS.
Remember that it goes through all the towns and villages on the way.
The bikes are FLAT OUT over the mountain :) Been there done and made the T-shirt :) :)

http://www.iomtt.com/MediaAssets/001293.jpg

Here's a riders perspective of the complete track .. http://www.iomtt.com/tour/rider.shtml

oh, I forgot, they also race sidecars on the island.
They are great to watch, but being a passenger needs lots of courage !!!
http://www.iomtt.com/MediaAssets/001996.jpg


hmm, maybe we need a bike section on UCP to keep me under control and in the box :)

[DasModell]

F1 is favorite ..
2.MotoGP
3.LeMans +FIA GT+ALMS+FIASC
4.Touring cars ETCC ...
5.WRC

[Tuscan666]

WRC defo my fav F1 and all these round the track racein is so boring to watch its just drivers usein the same race line for 50 or whatever laps but WRC is 100% gr8 to watch and the drivers have skill mortals like us can only dream of

[motorsportnerd]

I'd say 1st F1, 2nd V8 Supercar, 3rd DTM/WRC/ETCC/BTCC/Procar and GTs...
I follow F1 and V8 Supercars very closely, and the rest when I can. With the exception of WRC, most of the overseas series I mentioned (such as DTM) are not shown on Australian TV (unless you have cable), but I've seen them on TV when in Europe and follow the reports. If any Australian reader knows if the DTM will be shown on free to air TV this year, let me know...

Also, I'm with Kiwiit. I still love my V8 Supercars, but I used to really enjoy touring cars back in the Group A days. And I enjoyed the Super Tourers (esp BTCC in mid 90s) while they ran. I'd love to see a series for modified sedans. The ProCar GT Performance series or the SCCA World Challenge give pointers on how this could be done. Some sort of parity formula would be needed, but the cars should be more highly modified the GT Performance, with the most powerful cars having maybe 400 kW. I'd love to see V8s v turbos v AWD v RWD v FWD or, for example, Lancer Evo 8 v Ford Falcon GT v Holden Monaro v Subaru Legacy GT v Audi S4 v Mercedes C32...

[kiwitt]

That's what I meant by variety in racing cars. Not just teams, but makes, models, technologies. The manufacturers choose to design their cars a certain, let them prove their decision was right on the track with similarly priced cars. All under NZ$100,000 and only roll cage and other racing safety features added.

[Falcon500]

Also, I'm with Kiwiit. I still love my V8 Supercars, but I used to really enjoy touring cars back in the Group A days. And I enjoyed the Super Tourers (esp BTCC in mid 90s) while they ran. I'd love to see a series for modified sedans. The ProCar GT Performance series or the SCCA World Challenge give pointers on how this could be done. Some sort of parity formula would be needed, but the cars should be more highly modified the GT Performance, with the most powerful cars having maybe 400 kW. I'd love to see V8s v turbos v AWD v RWD v FWD or, for example, Lancer Evo 8 v Ford Falcon GT v Holden Monaro v Subaru Legacy GT v Audi S4 v Mercedes C32...If they involve parity in this it will sanitise it and make it like v8 super cars...personallyi think allowcertain modifications and allow the cars to be up and off like group C and i think introduce classes in it allowing other cars to win in their own class it worked for the origonal touring cars and production cars and still even works in historics and even workedin your beloved group A....We shouldnever wish group A back it had a biased system which was so restrictive it didnt allow the flacon to do any good and even the holden which recieved extensive work to hamoligate it wasnt alloud to run any areodyanmic body work and so on and so forth and was blitzed by a volvo of all things....
I think GTP has the right idea alow formore mods demand cars have an australian performance edition for hamoliglation reasons and where laughing...thaty my idea
Well anyways my faveorite raceing would be v8 supercars my real faveorites would have to be the Group C australia toruing cars (what v8s where 2 evalutions ago) GT-P (GT-perfromance) and historics...i also like Tractor pulls their kewl :cool: and of course drag raceing...and and interesting drag raceing isnt so dead end here with the intoruction of the sainty SOHC 3 valve engine...its a new drag motor developed by Mr sainty an ex boat racer turned top fueler driver.

[motorsportnerd]

My suggestion for an touring car catagory involving all makers would be more like an upgrade of GT-P, rather than full house Group A. My ideas would go something like the following.
For a start, I'm opposed to 500 off homologation specials. That was the real reason for the explosion of costs in Group A. So no one-off racing specials. Homologation would have to be something like 2,500 consecutive examples for the proposed racing vechicle. Since smaller manufacturers like HSV would have trouble producing 2,500 vehicles exceptions could be made (sto that, for example, the Clubsport could compete). Two seater cars such as the 350Z would be acceptable, but out and out sports cars like Aston Martins and Corvettes would be pointed in the direction of Group GT-N. An upper power limit for the road car could be considered (say 350kW) to keep out some of the most powerful road cars and prevent costs exploding to much.
Second, engine mods would be limited. Blueprinting, free exhaust from the first join back, slight mods to the camshaft, valves and crankshafts. The engines could not be bored or destroked. Turbos and intercoolers would have to remain standard. I suggest that the target would be for a gain of no more than 60-80 KW so that something like the Falcon GT to produce somewhere around 350kW-370kW (up from the standard 290 kW). That would get rid of the main problem with GT-Ps. They're sound boring and look slow. Modifying the exhaust and increasing the power would make the cars sound faster, and certainly go faster.
Third, transmissions would be control type. For example, all cars would use a 6-speed Holinger gearbox (either H-type or sequential) with the gear and final drive ratios being adjusted to suit the particular car.
Fourth, limited modification of the suspension would be allowed. The suspension could be lowered, springs and shocks changed. But the suspension would have to have the same layout as the road car (ie: if double wishbones are used in the road car, that is what the race car would use).
Fifth, slicks would be used and wheel diameter and width could employ the plus 1 ratio (ie: if the road car uses 17s the race car could use 18s), up to a maximum of 18 inch diameter. The wheels would have to fit entirely within the guards, with no flaring of the guards allowed.
Sixth, the body would remain standard. In the case of cars with no wings on the production vehicle (for example the Monaro), a small, standard-issue rear wing could be employed to give similar advantages to the cars (like the Evo 8) which have wings as standard (ie: negilible downforce). But no splitters on the front, no skirts, no flared guards. Thus the cars would still look much like a GT-P or Group N car, but not as aggressive as a group A car looked, since the cars would be slightly lower to the ground and the tyres generally wouldn't be much wider than standard.
Seventh, roll cages and other safety equipment would be fitted and the interiors gutted.
Eighth, weights would be based on the proposed/likely power of the racecar, not on engine capacity. Thus, a 360 kW Falcon GT would weight the same as a 360 KW BMW M3. This would avoid probably the biggest problem of the old Group A era (where the Commodores had to run over 150kg heavier than the more powerful Sierra simply because they had bigger capacity engines).
Ninth, the parity would come in the form of weight penalty on race winners (as employed in many touring car series from BTCC, DTM to GT-P). If a particular car ends up producing much more power than expected and starts to dominate, it would be quickly brought back to the field.
Finally, classes are a good idea, but base them on the power outputs rather than engine size (for examply, you don't want the BMW M3, which would be an outright car, in a up to 3,500 cc catagory).
The idea would be for a front running car to lap Bathurst somewhere between the lap time of a V8 Supercar and a GT-P car (say about 2m20s) for relatively minimal cost. Unlike Kiwiit, I want the cars to run more power and bigger exhausts. I think GT-P would meet his expectations. We already have GT-P here in Australia. Europe and Japan have Group N and N1. NZ should adopt GT-P. Want I want to see is a slight step up from where GT-P is in terms of power and lap times without costs going through the window.
Falc's Group C idea is worth exploring, though we'll have to keep the lobbying out of it (in the last few years of Group C, political ability was almost as important as driver ability - thus Brock and Moffat got more concessions than Johnson). And how big would the wings/spoilers be and how much power would be acceptable? Group C/Group 2 (the European equivalent with the BMW 3.0CSi and Ford Capri RS3100s) are the track equivalent of Group B rally cars. Exciting in there day, but probably too fast, dangerous and politically incorrect to bring back today. But I'd love to see a 2003 equivalent to the 84 Marlboro Commodores, its just unlikely.

Finally, in no way am I suggesting the above idea should replace V8 Supercar or DTM, just supplement it and give us a world catagory where international teams can once again compete against each other.

Sorry for the length of this, guys, but just though I though explain my idea here fully.

[fpv_gtho]

for the most, it sounds like a pretty good idea, but i dont think a control transmission is a good idea. sure it provides something thats bound to be strong enough but there'll be alot of hassle trying to find something thats sutiable for all eligible cars. i dont believe though, that the power and weight limits should be the same across the range. for instance, say if a falcon GT had a minimum weight of 1600kg and maximum power of 350kw, i would rather see a celica go up against it with 270kw and a fair enough weight rather than be weighed down and carry the same 350kw.

[Falcon500]

Agreed no one off...but if they allow smaller build numbers for small companys would that not be somehwat unfair? Im thinking of 1000 or maybey less....
Also the reason why i suggested local models be homaoliglated is so that people can associate more with the cars knowing they can buy a strong more localised car (eg a 350Z will never be as local as a Falcon or commadore but more localised asi said).
The mods sound ok but i dont really agree on your standarised gearbox idea...how about modified stock? a hollinger would almost undoubtly cost more then a holligner item...and most of these cars more then likly could have their drive train modified totake the bashing a modifed engine could dishout...also gives more of a connection to the road car....
suspension sounds ok and break upgrades should also be included with the GT should be modifed stock or a new system all together for example....same with other cars...that also comes under safety issues.
Some flareing should be alloud with wider rubber on offer too these are race cars and more contact on the road is a good idea...though i think the ratio idea isnt a bad one...
Stock Body kits should be maintained and the other idea with homliglation is that manufacturos can prepare them selves better for this....Regulated of course nothing too wild.
agreed on the gutted interiors and safety items i would also like to include 4 or more point harnesses and raceing seats...possibly contorlled? of course a seat that sits well in one car might makeit hard tosee out of another...maybey a restriction on matiral used in consturction?
Weights should already be like thay have in GT-P which essiantly is what the base model or an agreed amount weights...
Idont like the sucsess ballist idea...it punishes a winner instead of congratulating them...i think close scruteniering is the idea and rember a better car should be aloud to winr ater then being hobbled (one of the short commings in nations cup which i think gets spoilt when someone does wellone race and crap in the next because they baiscly have the weight of another person in it)
I think the displacement class sounds good but rember i dont think top level cars should really be threatend by lower class models...but of course if their win they win...and my idea about Homoliglation will more then likely make sure that such makers like aston martin and such wouldent even bother....
As for my group C imt hinking like when the race was before...an accepted homliglated system that this time will be closely scrutineered...engine power...the aforementiond amount of around 350kw sounds great for the big bangers...
Lobbying should be aloud but only if agroup of drivers (not just one) comeup with a legitimate reason to change something due to unfairness or frailness for example...
all in all not a bad idea...

[Falcon500]

for the most, it sounds like a pretty good idea, but i dont think a control transmission is a good idea. sure it provides something thats bound to be strong enough but there'll be alot of hassle trying to find something thats sutiable for all eligible cars. i dont believe though, that the power and weight limits should be the same across the range. for instance, say if a falcon GT had a minimum weight of 1600kg and maximum power of 350kw, i would rather see a celica go up against it with 270kw and a fair enough weight rather than be weighed down and carry the same 350kw.
And ilike that idea about keeping a cars charitoristics eg if the cars light keep it that way....limitations on the engine itself with whats given mroe then likly would stop us seeing a 350kw celica for example...and the mods would have to scrutenerd and agreed upon more then likly giveing a more sedate hp but lower weight...that said id rather see it like group C with brillaint little scraps at the back of the field with smaller cars and seeing good scraps at the front with lapping higher class cars storming around the field...

[stratos]

1. F1
2. WRC
3. DTM
4. Le Mans

[fpv_gtho]

And ilike that idea about keeping a cars charitoristics eg if the cars light keep it that way....limitations on the engine itself with whats given mroe then likly would stop us seeing a 350kw celica for example...and the mods would have to scrutenerd and agreed upon more then likly giveing a more sedate hp but lower weight...that said id rather see it like group C with brillaint little scraps at the back of the field with smaller cars and seeing good scraps at the front with lapping higher class cars storming around the field...


well the problem with keeping each cars characteristics is where do you draw the line on midifications? who decides how much power a 1800kg sedan needs compared to a 1300kg coupe? who decides how much weight each of them can shed, all the things like that

[Falcon500]

well the problem with keeping each cars characteristics is where do you draw the line on midifications? who decides how much power a 1800kg sedan needs compared to a 1300kg coupe? who decides how much weight each of them can shed, all the things like that
Yeah well classes will help decide what they can and cannot do though it needs some fine tuneing...cost more thne likly should be a vairble too...

[fpv_gtho]

well classes could be good and they could be bad. they could stop a GT Falcon going up against a Proton Satria and they could also stop a GT going up against an XR6T. Sure you dont want things to get as rediculous as the first case but people will want to see lesser sports cars like Celica's, Integras, WRX's etc going up against V8 Commodores and Falcons

[Falcon500]

And they do in GT-Pin case you didnt notice....itll be much like the group C days with the rx7 series 2 mitsu Starion against v8 commadores and v8 falcons...while you heard of the exploits of the latter 2 the first still done great in their time as well and where also outright cars too...and nowdays with the technology avoible and other doo dads the japs cars will still be there with them...

[motorsportnerd]

Couple of points on a possible new touring car catagory.
First, I agree that racing brakes should be used. And the control transmission idea might not work. However, transmissions should still be 6-speed manual (remember some cars such as Mercedes C32 are auto only), possibly sequential. Also, all cars must have a roof (no convertables) and be front engined (no Porsches).
Second, on the issue of weights. Once the cars interiors have been gutted and airconditioning, sound deadening, stereo, passenger seats, carpets, etc, have been removed, the cars will weigh considerably less. I think that RWD cars should be used as the control. For example a 360kW Falcon GT (RWD) could weigh 1450 kg in race spec while an Audi RS6 with similar power but AWD could weigh 1500 kg. I'm thinking FWD should be minus 50 from the control and AWD plus 50. To keep weights relatively simple, I'd suggest that cars with over 350 kW weigh 1400 kg (FWD), 1450 kg (RWD) and 1500 kg (AWD). Then work on a sliding scale backwards as power gets less. Say -25kg for each reduction of 20 KW. So a 330 KW BMW M3 would weigh 1425 kg while a 330 kW Audi S4 would weigh 1475 kg. That should keep the power/weight relatively close while compensating for the positive/negative aspects of particular drivetrains. If a particular car was so heavy in production trim that it would never make the minimum weight, then perhaps some performance concession in the way of extra engine mods could be considered.
Third, on the issue of classes. In no way would I forsee a Toyota Celica developing 350 kW unless Toyota reintroduced a turbo version. It would be a class car. Again, classes should be based on power. So all cars in Class 1 would in standard trim produce over 200 kW (race trim 260 KW plus). Class 2 would in production trim produce 150-200 kW (race trim 210-260 kW). Class 3 cars would in production trim produce 100-150 kW (race trim 160-210 kW). And all others in Class 4. Thus small capacity cars with a lot of power would be in classes against big capacity cars with similar power.
Examples of the types of cars I forsee in each class are as follows.
Class 1 (based on cars with production outputs of over 200 kW): Audi S4, Audi RS6, BMW M3, BMW 645 Ci, Cadillac CTS, Ford Mustang, Ford Falcon XR6T, XR8 & GT, Holden Commodore SS, Holden Monaro, HSV Clubsport R8, HSV Coupe & Coupe4, Jaguar S-Type R, Jaguar XJ-R, Mercedes C32 AMG, Mercedes CLK500, Mercedes CLK55, Mercedes E500, MG ZT260, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 8, Mitsubishi Galant VR4, Nissan 350Z, Pontiac GTO, Subaru Liberty/Legacy GT, Subaru Impreza WRX STI, Volvo S60R.
Class 2 (based on cars with production outputs of 150-200kW): Alfa Romeo 147 GTA, Alfa Romeo 156 GTA, Audi A3 32. Sport Quattro, Audi TT Quattro Coupe, BMW 330CI, BMW 330D, Chrysler Crossfire, Ford Focus RS, Ford Mondeo ST200, Honda Civic Type R, Honda S2000, Jaguar X-Type 3.0, Lexus IS300, Mazda RX8, Mercedes C320 sedan/coupe, Mitsubishi Magna VRX, Saab 9-3 Aero, Seat Leon Cupra R, Subaru Impreza WRX, VW Golf R32, Volvo S40T.
Class 3 (based on cars with production outputs of 100-150kW): This is where the hot hatches would compete - Audi A4 1.8T Quattro, Audi TT Coupe, BMW 318Ti, BMW 320i, Fiat Stilo Abarth, Ford Focus ST170, Holden/Vauxhall/Opel Astra Turbo, Honda Integra Type R, Hyundai Tiburon/Coupe V6, Lexus IS200, Mazda 6, Mazda 3SP, MG ZT180, Mini Cooper S Works, Peugeot 206 GTi 180, Proton Satia GTi, Renault Clio Sport, Skoda Octavia 1.8T vRS,Subaru Impreza RS, Toyota Corolla GTi/Sportivo, Toyota Celica, VW Golf GTi, VW Bora V5.
Class 4 (based on cars with production outputs of under 100kW): Audi A3, BMW 316Ti, Citroen C3 1.6, Daihatsu Sirion, Fiat Punto HGT, Ford Focus 2.0, Ford Fiesta ST, Holden/Vauxhall/Opel Barina/Corsa SRi, Mini Cooper, MG ZR120, Peugeot 206 GTi, Seat Leon 1.8 20v, Toyota Corolla, VW Polo Sport.

Whew, long list. And not so heavy on Australian cars. However, I'm thinking along the lines of a possible global FIA catagory. In each region no doubt you'd see an emphasis on the local machinery. There could be regional/country championships which each championship sending their top 4/5 cars to a World Series at the end of the year made up of, say, 4 races with one race in Europe, one in Asia, one in America and one in Australia. As you can see, I've put some thought in to this. Of course, its all hypothetical.

[fpv_gtho]

Second, on the issue of weights. Once the cars interiors have been gutted and airconditioning, sound deadening, stereo, passenger seats, carpets, etc, have been removed, the cars will weigh considerably less. I think that RWD cars should be used as the control. For example a 360kW Falcon GT (RWD) could weigh 1450 kg in race spec while an Audi RS6 with similar power but AWD could weigh 1500 kg. I'm thinking FWD should be minus 50 from the control and AWD plus 50. To keep weights relatively simple, I'd suggest that cars with over 350 kW weigh 1400 kg (FWD), 1450 kg (RWD) and 1500 kg (AWD). Then work on a sliding scale backwards as power gets less. Say -25kg for each reduction of 20 KW. So a 330 KW BMW M3 would weigh 1425 kg while a 330 kW Audi S4 would weigh 1475 kg. That should keep the power/weight relatively close while compensating for the positive/negative aspects of particular drivetrains. If a particular car was so heavy in production trim that it would never make the minimum weight, then perhaps some performance concession in the way of extra engine mods could be considered.



it all sounds like a good idea, but i think it could end up benefiting some cars more than others. for example, get a 200kw RWD car at around 1400kg, a similarly powered AWD car would be 1450kg. then you get a 300kw RWD car weighing around 1600kg. a similarly powered AWD car would then have to be 1650kg. my point of all this is, the 50kg weight deficit is going to feel more on the 200kw car then on the 300kw car, so how are you going to get around that

[motorsportnerd]

it all sounds like a good idea, but i think it could end up benefiting some cars more than others. for example, get a 200kw RWD car at around 1400kg, a similarly powered AWD car would be 1450kg. then you get a 300kw RWD car weighing around 1600kg. a similarly powered AWD car would then have to be 1650kg. my point of all this is, the 50kg weight deficit is going to feel more on the 200kw car then on the 300kw car, so how are you going to get around that

The idea of a weight penalty for AWD is to counteract the traction advantages of AWD of the starting line and on power down out of corners. No other reason. If a RWD and AWD car raced at the same weight, then on most circuits the AWD car would be superior due to the superior traction on offer. Note that during the super touring era the Audi A4 Quattros raced with a 100 kg penalty over the FWD cars and 50 kg over the RWD cars and still won.

[Falcon500]

The weightpenaltyto be quitefrank is a bit of awank...it needs more consideration testing and scrutenering to be properly used on the track....and as i said i would like to keep the charictoristics of these cars so it will have to be tested so to slow them around corners...as another noteon a track like bathurst the rwd cars will no doubt runaway with their greatly improved drivetrain losses...prehaps we could remove the weight on more flowing circuts...
If the car came auto only then so be it....where not buying the car for hem to race whereonly makeing hypathetical rules...that and the fact that 6 gears more then likly are overkill for every car not in class 1!
You list is devoid of any of the small sports cars eg lotus...but of course thats your choice....
Prehaps we could reintorduce the world champaionship haveing a few races in each competing county eg like in 87 they had 4 in australia 2 in NZ a heap all throughout europe and about 2 from america and 2 from japan...probly should be a spot for england too....

[motorsportnerd]

The weightpenaltyto be quitefrank is a bit of awank...it needs more consideration testing and scrutenering to be properly used on the track....and as i said i would like to keep the charictoristics of these cars so it will have to be tested so to slow them around corners...as another noteon a track like bathurst the rwd cars will no doubt runaway with their greatly improved drivetrain losses...prehaps we could remove the weight on more flowing circuts...
If the car came auto only then so be it....where not buying the car for hem to race whereonly makeing hypathetical rules...that and the fact that 6 gears more then likly are overkill for every car not in class 1!
You list is devoid of any of the small sports cars eg lotus...but of course thats your choice....
Prehaps we could reintorduce the world champaionship haveing a few races in each competing county eg like in 87 they had 4 in australia 2 in NZ a heap all throughout europe and about 2 from america and 2 from japan...probly should be a spot for england too....


The idea of extra weight for AWD and FWD would of course be controversal. It was in Super Touring. The BMW teams always used to complain about having to carry more weight than the front wheel drive. And Audi complained it was just a way to slow down the best car when the FWD/RWD teams should just work harder. You're right about flowing tracks negating the AWD advantages. Bathurst was by far the worst track for the Audis, but they didn't go well at the superfast Monza circuit either. FWDs, like the Volvo S60R would also be good on the flowing circuits. Maybe 50 kg penalty for AWDs is too much. Maybe it could be looked at depending on whether any AWD car actually started to dominate...

As for small sports cars, I didn't even think of them. I'm not sure they fit with my idea of what a Touring Car Catagory should be - ie: a roof, front engine, no convertables. The Lotus's etc, can be catered for by GT-N. I think that is the more appropriate catagory for low volume, open-top sports cars.

Gearboxes - 6 speeds would be overkill for a little Corolla in class 4. Perhaps the rule could read "maximum of 6-speeds."

Also, thinking the most powerful car accepted would be the Mercedes E500 (road car - 350 kW, race car - somewhere around 420 kW). Most power front driver would be the Volvo S60R (road car - 220 kW, race car 280 kW). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the Volvo S60R the most powerful FWD road car anyway? Its certainly the most power FWD car with any performance pretentions.

Finally, I'd haven't considered the differences in torque. That is one area where cars would probably gain advantages over each other (depending on circuit).

[Falcon500]

Well its ok for a car to win.... its ok for a car to win often...its ok for a car to win by a country mile...but if it does all of the above then it needs some thinking....and sadly it just lets the fans of the car (UGH Skyline fans who ingore the fact group A was not popular for anyone but them....) to say awww they hobbeld/got rid of it becuase it was the best....that really shits me...sorry just had to say it aloud :)
Fair enough i think thats a good idea really since where focususing more on real world cars hence no lambos and ferraris and stuff...
Sounds good...and i think its ok if hollinger can be involved with the construction of the new modified gearbox too...
Torque very good and usually takes a back burner in motorsport.....its hardly talked about compaired to hp...i think it might slide unless its an issue with domination...

[fpv_gtho]

The idea of a weight penalty for AWD is to counteract the traction advantages of AWD of the starting line and on power down out of corners. No other reason. If a RWD and AWD car raced at the same weight, then on most circuits the AWD car would be superior due to the superior traction on offer. Note that during the super touring era the Audi A4 Quattros raced with a 100 kg penalty over the FWD cars and 50 kg over the RWD cars and still won.



Thats not addressing the issue i brought up that having a fixed weight limit is going to change some cars more than others. Having a 50kg weight increase on a 1400kg car is going to change the power to weight ratio more than a 50kg weight increase on an 1800kg car.



I thought the S60R was AWD :confused: Being part of the PAG, I dont think they wouldve attempted 220kw through the front wheels when Ford almost were about to give up sending 160kw through the Focus RS

[motorsportnerd]

In re to the Volvo S60R, you're right. It is AWD. My mistake. Sorry. Must have been thinking of the old 850 T5Rs - which were both FWD and AWD. Therefore, there wouldn't be any FWD with over 200 kW, except perhaps a few American barges.

Also, weights. Lets just say that the aim should be for the maximum weight of any car to be 1450 kg, all drivetrains could run the same weight with reviews if necessay, and that the aim be to equalise power/weight ratio.

[fpv_gtho]

well the alfa romeo 147 GTA is about 180-190kw and theres a tuned version of it available in europe thats about 255kw/345hp

i think i'd just rather see AWD's with say a 5% weight increase, so a 1400kg car would increase by 70kg and an 1800kg car would increase by 90kg so that the weight penalty is proportionate to the weight of the car

[motorsportnerd]

well the alfa romeo 147 GTA is about 180-190kw and theres a tuned version of it available in europe thats about 255kw/345hp

i think i'd just rather see AWD's with say a 5% weight increase, so a 1400kg car would increase by 70kg and an 1800kg car would increase by 90kg so that the weight penalty is proportionate to the weight of the car


Sounds fair. However - an 1,800 kg race cars sounds kinda heavy. Doubt that any properly developed touring car complying with any set of regulations would need to weigh more than 1,500 kg.
Unless they're standard production cars with only safety mods like in GT-P. Which probably explains why the BA GT isn't doing very well, since it must be the heaviest car in GT-P.

[fpv_gtho]

well in GT-P i believe the GT's are allowed to run as low as 1660kg so the 5% weight ballast could be based of that. having an 1800kg race car would be pretty hard though, the V8 Supercars are considered tank like with thier 1350 and i dont know what a BTCC or DTM car weight in at but overall the cars are smaller so i wouldnt be too surprised if theyre under a tonne

[Falcon500]

The Gt isnt doing well because that weight rule onlycame in at the end of the year...they havent got and raceing Break pads or and kind ofmods to the breaks suspesnion was stock and they are still working on stuff inside the car...last i heard they are working on a new side exit exaust but that will come after a new more raceing sized fuel tank is added...they are also going to add things like proper digital dash and stuff...so in theory it should be more competative next year...it had the higest termial speed on every track last year so it was fast just need a diet and some mods...

[fpv_gtho]

i'll have to stick my nose into PROCAR and GT-P a bit more this year, im starting to get pretty interested with all of this. those mods seem to be getting pretty severe but i guess theyre not really toying around much with the engine, so when that happens i guess is when people start screaming purpose built race car in productino category

[foto_choppa]

i would say D1nz(nz drifting) but since drifting aint there i say WRC :D

[Falcon500]

I dont really get what the real attraction is...i dont actually think drifint is a real race....

[fpv_gtho]

its more something along the lines of a burnout competition

[Falcon500]

its more something along the lines of a burnout competition
Yeah but still if you can call a burnout comp a race what else is a race? as i said and i stand by it i dont think its real raceing!

[fpv_gtho]

well i personally wouldnt call drifting a race or anything, but the way its done you need to be on like a circuit of some sort so maybe that causes people to refer to it as racing

[whiteballz]

JGTC!!! (japanese touring cars) supra, NSX, skylines, cuzco sti's, awsome evo's sweet silvias (s13/s14/s15) just awsome cars. for 6/4 cilenders they are F***KING fast!!!

the denso supra is one awsome car!

i belive, around some circuts in JGTC top speeds 300kph+

also international cars have been known to compete, vipers, miclaren f1 GTR's diablos, bmw's etc etc etc...

also the WRC is awsome, australia (at least canberra) gets good almost great coverage. alot of rally clubs are out there, so more promo for WRC!

[byronleehk]

JGTC!!! (japanese touring cars) supra, NSX, skylines, cuzco sti's, awsome evo's sweet silvias (s13/s14/s15) just awsome cars. for 6/4 cilenders they are F***KING fast!!!

the denso supra is one awsome car!

i belive, around some circuts in JGTC top speeds 300kph+

also international cars have been known to compete, vipers, miclaren f1 GTR's diablos, bmw's etc etc etc...

also the WRC is awsome, australia (at least canberra) gets good almost great coverage. alot of rally clubs are out there, so more promo for WRC!

Whiteballz, you may like to know this...

"GT Live will take place December 18 & 19, 2004 at California Speedway in Fontana, California. The main event will be a JGTC All-Star race featuring 25 top cars invited from Japan, as well as local entries..." :D

[d-quik]

what are the lemans classes?

[Matra et Alpine]

what are the lemans classes?

The regs are available on-line at http://www.lemans.org/univers_sport/reglements/pages/cahierdescharges_auto2004_gb.html

[Falcon500]

i'll have to stick my nose into PROCAR and GT-P a bit more this year, im starting to get pretty interested with all of this. those mods seem to be getting pretty severe but i guess theyre not really toying around much with the engine, so when that happens i guess is when people start screaming purpose built race car in productino category
Well if everyone else is running it i guess there isnt no problem to this and if the rule allow a computerised dash rather then anolouge why not? its all a matter of cubic $$$ isnt it....now that we are in the next year the BA GT still isnt doing too flash but the rest of the field has moved up thebar to...we now havepaul stokell driveing every single race in a VW of some kind and theres more funding all round....AlsoTeam GT ahs more sponsirs and even some Help from FPR....

[SL500]

Gumball 3000
WRC

[Olli]

F1 is so the best, the cars are the fastest in the world and the different teams have to come up with the best stratergy to win the race, it's not just having the best driver (but that does help as Ferrari are proving)

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

I reckon that the cars in rallying look a damn site better than the ones in BTCC, but rallying isn't exciting to watch when on site. It is from a television camera, but BTCC always has some sort of action that you can see, like Plato stuffing his Astra into a bend, or Soper sliding away an causing a massive pile up. Entertainment at its finest!

[Mustang]

like Plato stuffing his Astra into a bend, or Soper sliding away an causing a massive pile up. Entertainment at its finest!


wen did you see that, it wasnt recently plato drives for SEAT now.

RALLYING KICKS ASS and if you think it isnt exciting to watch you should come to one of the club rallies :D:D

[QuattroMan]

I am going whit LeMans 24hs of endurance driving that is what you call real racing......

[Mustang]

I am going whit LeMans 24hs of endurance driving that is what you call real racing......

'scuse me if im wrong but isnt it all real racing ;) :p

how can you not love this sport ?? (below)

[sasho85]

The best motorsport is Formula1.

[fpv_gtho]

depends how you look at it.....maybe as an ultimate test of driver skill at the limit and a technology parade, you'd enjoy WRC, F1 or LeMans/GT......i think something about the V8 Supercars here is people see them and relate them to their V8 Commodore or Falcon in the driveway :p

[charged]

That's what I meant by variety in racing cars. Not just teams, but makes, models, technologies. The manufacturers choose to design their cars a certain, let them prove their decision was right on the track with similarly priced cars. All under NZ$100,000 and only roll cage and other racing safety features added.Their is aclass like this in Aus its called improved production where u can build a race car from humble beginingsfrom gt falcons to 120y and lomg as its not classed a sports car.Eg adatsun 120y with 250kw at rear wheels via a SR20DET versus a Falcon gt 550kw at rear wheels.My nephews race in this class Ke55 Corolla coupe 3SGTE from GT4 Celica,TA28 Roller bearing turbo with 36mm restrictor,Roll a cage,4w disc brakes,Autronic SM2 engine mamagement system,control Yoko AdVans (Grooved Slick),you can put basically anything toyota in it or if its a nissan all nissan,Build the cars from 15000-whatever you want to spend and go racing.Rough performance figures 700-800kg for corolla,250kw back whells around 10-11 sec 1/4 mile ,250-280km/h top speed
better power to weight ratio than a V8 Supercar,Diablo,Corvette C5,ZR-1 for our American mate,cheap fast and fun motorsport with ahuge variety of cars thats what it is all about.Last weekend at Mallala a 400,000 GT3 porsche cup car was beaten in a race by a Dato 1200.

[Rico]

I like f1.

Forza Ferrari

[Fabio Ferrari]

I really like WRC but I love F1, perhaps the best sport of all time.

Forza Ferrari

[PsychoChimp22]

WRC all the way, I think it takes more skill then all the others. And to all the NASCAR fans out there... I got to sit in the M&M car!!! :D

[carreragt10]

Le Mans :cool:

[lukeh]

'scuse me if im wrong but isnt it all real racing ;) :p

how can you not love this sport ?? (below)

thats right i think everybody here has a soft spot for ralying. i think it is good every event has a different surface rally cars can race on snow sand rocks dirt pretty much anything in rallying each corner is different and the drivers have to be very tallanted to win.
wrc is deffenently the best.
4 eva

[Curt]

I had to choose WRC. In my eyes there is no competition. Ive loved the sport since I was single figures :)

[Bob]

F1... fastest racing in the world highest technology best of everything WRC is cool too but F1 is just incredible

[F6 TORNADO]

Ausssie V8 Supercars all the way!!!! Yes, F1 has the fastest and most technologically advanced cars and they race on the biggest and most advanced tracks but in the V8s there is good, close, bumper-to-bumper racing, and while the tracks aren't the flashest, they sure have character and they have the tendency to produce a lot of good action. There are true rivalries between the drivers (e.g. Skaife/Ingall), not to mention the 2 manufacturers. And the Bathurst 1000 is one of the best enduro races in the world. It is just facinating to watch. As a proud kiwi, I have to congragulate the Aussies on putting together, in my opinion, the best racing series in the world.

[forza_autodelta]

fun too see that an important part of you are inerested in the most boring sports all over the world --->F1!although this year the quality for spectators has been improved, it's still very far of BTCC's , V8 's and Le Mans' fights on tracks( cf Pukekohe last week , Donington two weeks ago ....)

[labomba]

Any Motorsport is cool... F1 for Hi Tech and Hi stakes... WRC for great roads and car control... MotoGP for Hi Speed elbow bashing... WTCC for door banging racing

[Koenigsegg_CC]

Tractor pulling! What a motorsport and it's one that is actualy local (yay!)

[forza_autodelta]

Any Motorsport is cool... F1 for Hi Tech and Hi stakes... WRC for great roads and car control... MotoGP for Hi Speed elbow bashing... WTCC for door banging racing
yes , we can say that all are interesting in different cases...

[6'bore]

I would have to say that F1 is my favourite motorsport. Extremely fast cars and awsome trcks make for great watching.

[Birdman]

WRC. It's exciting and great fun to watch. Would have said F1 but this year it just doesn't seem as good.

[fa22_raptor]

F1 for the drama on and off the track. :)

[labomba]

WRC. It's exciting and great fun to watch. Would have said F1 but this year it just doesn't seem as good.

Which F1 are you watching???
This years F1 is WAY WAY WAY WAY better than the last 3 or so years put together!!!

-Schumacher is 24 points behind the current leader Alonso with 16 races still to go. If he manages to catch up and grab the title, then it will be his greatest title of his fantastic career! His hardest earnt..

-The top 6 are within 1 second of each other in qualifying so the racing will be close.

-Of the 3 races so far, there has almost been three different manufacturers on the podium each time!!! You don't see that in every motorsport!

-Mclaren, Ferrari, and BAR are closing the gap to Renault who have a small advantage. So its gonna be even tighter a the front!

Enjoy WRC this year, because with Citroen and Peugeot leaving next year, it'll be Subrau and Ford against the other weak opposition.
They need to make changes soon because its a championship in decline!

[forza_autodelta]

Which F1 are you watching???
This years F1 is WAY WAY WAY WAY better than the last 3 or so years put together!!!

-Schumacher is 24 points behind the current leader Alonso with 16 races still to go. If he manages to catch up and grab the title, then it will be his greatest title of his fantastic career! His hardest earnt..

-The top 6 are within 1 second of each other in qualifying so the racing will be close.

-Of the 3 races so far, there has almost been three different manufacturers on the podium each time!!! You don't see that in every motorsport!

-Mclaren, Ferrari, and BAR are closing the gap to Renault who have a small advantage. So its gonna be even tighter a the front!

Enjoy WRC this year, because with Citroen and Peugeot leaving next year, it'll be Subrau and Ford against the other weak opposition.
They need to make changes soon because its a championship in decline!
better....it's the same thing , there's just a different leader

[labomba]

Bet you would sing a different tune if there was a decent French driver :D
Guess if a Brit driver were up there in WRC I would watch a little more closely (Which would be difficult) :D

Okay after Sunday qualifying for the San Marino GP
the Grid starts like this....

Raikonnen - MacMercedes
Alonso - Renault
Button - BAR Honda
Webber - Williams BMW
Trulli - Toyota

5 different manufacturers in the top 5!!

Ferrari are nowhere!! They're in trouble again at their home GP
Barrichello 10th / Schumi 14th !!

Its gonna be a good race no doubt :D Even without a frenchie!

[forza_autodelta]

Bet you would sing a different tune if there was a decent French driver :D
Guess if a Brit driver were up there in WRC I would watch a little more closely (Which would be difficult) :D

Okay after Sunday qualifying for the San Marino GP
the Grid starts like this....

Raikonnen - MacMercedes
Alonso - Renault
Button - BAR Honda
Webber - Williams BMW
Trulli - Toyota

5 different manufacturers in the top 5!!

Ferrari are nowhere!! They're in trouble again at their home GP
Barrichello 10th / Schumi 14th !!

Its gonna be a good race no doubt :D Even without a frenchie!
now we can refresh your post
race results: first : alonso
second: shumacher
third : button

[labomba]

Did you enjoy it then?

That was a pretty Awesome performance by Schumacher!
... and Alonso aswell considering he had engine trouble :O

Next race should be fantastic at Alsonso's home GP. He won't want Schumi making a winning return there eh...

[forza_autodelta]

Did you enjoy it then?

That was a pretty Awesome performance by Schumacher!
... and Alonso aswell considering he had engine trouble :O

Next race should be fantastic at Alsonso's home GP. He won't want Schumi making a winning return there eh...
Yep , how to say that the last part of the race and shumi's return were amazing , I hope to see it for the next race (Barcelona?) :rolleyes:

[labomba]

Barcelona is a much better track for overtaking, I don't think there is a harder track to pass at (Imola) apart from maybe Monaco?
Should be a more exciting race in that respect...

[Mustang]

Did you enjoy it then?

That was a pretty Awesome performance by Schumacher!
... and Alonso aswell considering he had engine trouble :O

Next race should be fantastic at Alsonso's home GP. He won't want Schumi making a winning return there eh...


t'was still a bit boring, so much that i decided to go play devil may cry 3 half way through :p

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

definetly a tossup between F1, WRC, and JGTC

F1 for its pure speed, adrenalin and awesome technical superiority

WRC because its just man and machine vs the road ahead of you

and JGTC because its just so amazing how they can turn road cars into such amazing machines, and to me i think its the most "fair" prof racing series with its ballast system and how gt300 and 500 class race together

[lukeh]

t'was still a bit boring, so much that i decided to go play devil may cry 3 half way through :p
I thought it was amazing to see shue go from 13 to 2 place.

[ptclaus98]

you honestly have NASCAR and tractor pulling before JGTC. Go jump in front of a bus, dude. It's easy to see you're a retard. you'd rather drive a tractor than a skyline, supra, or NSX??!! what rock have you been hiding under?!


Enemy...show me what you want from me, i can handle anything even if i cant handle you-Slipknot(great driving music)

[clutch-monkey]

you honestly have NASCAR and tractor pulling before JGTC. Go jump in front of a bus, dude. It's easy to see you're a retard. you'd rather drive a tractor than a skyline, supra, or NSX??!! what rock have you been hiding under?!

who are you addressing with this post? you are aware of the existence of the 'quote' button, right
and put this

Enemy...show me what you want from me, i can handle anything even if i cant handle you-Slipknot(great driving music)
in your sig rather than in every post

[Rockefella]

you honestly have NASCAR and tractor pulling before JGTC. Go jump in front of a bus, dude. It's easy to see you're a retard. you'd rather drive a tractor than a skyline, supra, or NSX??!! what rock have you been hiding under?!


Enemy...show me what you want from me, i can handle anything even if i cant handle you-Slipknot(great driving music)
To each his own. People have opinions for a reason, respect it.

[Quiggs]

Tractor pulls are fun, it's like drag racing with farm equipment.

[johnnynumfiv]

I hadn't seen this thread yet, I'd choose autocrossing or club racing, wide variety of cars and different levels of diffculty that change every week.

[my porsche]

algabreic inequality to answetr this

EVERYTHING ELSE > NASCAR

[ptclaus98]

i was replying to Mustang

Thanks for the help clutch monkey

sry Rockefella i was pissed that day and lost my cool

Quiggs if you want a tractor instead of a JGTC Supra thats fine, but all i was tryin to say was that JGTC deserved to be on the poll before tractor pulling, and the biggest abomination on the poll is NASCAR im from the south it is everwhere and im SICK :mad: of it

and i completely forgot about autox. club racing too, i want to do that (i can dream can't i?) :o

[forza_autodelta]

Tractor pulls are fun, it's like drag racing with farm equipment.
year , one had for principal sponsor Lego :D very nice