"Uneconomic" diesel for Ford Territory

[nota]

Ford working on diesel Territory
By Ian Porter, car industry reporter, 11/05/06


As fuel prices rise, Ford is looking for ways to help drivers of off-road wagons ease the financial burden at the bowser.

Ford Australia is working on a diesel version of the Territory wagon even though it believes buyers cannot recoup the extra cost of the drive train through lower fuel prices.

Drivers would be far better off buying a vehicle dedicated to liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), Ford president Tom Gorman said yesterday.

"The market has been telling us it wants performance engines, more luxury, diesel engines and off-road ability in the Territory," Mr Gorman said.

He said the Territory Turbo and Territory Ghia Turbo due for release next month would satisfy the first two items but he said the increased off-road capability was "inconsistent" with the Territory.

That left diesel engines, and Ford was "working really hard on it", but only because people wanted to buy it.

"The economics do not make sense," Mr Gorman said. "If you look at the premium consumers pay for the diesel power train, they do not earn that back in the short term."

He contrasted that with the LPG option that has been available in the Falcon for years.

"The economics of a dedicated LPG car are quite real," he said. "You can earn back the premium you pay for an LPG car in about 13 months. That's a sound economic proposition."

However, Mr Gorman conceded there were other reasons why diesels were becoming more popular.

"Diesel engines are not what they were five years ago - noisy, smelly and industrial.

"Ford has many good performance diesels. They have great low-end torque, great performance feel, and they are (now) quieter. That's part of why people are moving in that direction. But you wouldn't do it if you were making a logical and rational decision."

He said the company was testing Territories with some of the diesel engines from other parts of the Ford world and it was a painstaking process.

"People want performance and refinement, and that means great NVH (noise, vibration and harshness). You don't get that by jamming a diesel engine into the car. It takes time and engineering talent to do it."
source: http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleID=11796&vf=2

[SlickHolden]

I still think they are always going to be a bit noisy and smelly. My Auntie Nervara is a touch of both.

Atleast you can make some $$$ back with the Diesel and LPG. The Prius takes about 800,000km to make a save over the price.

[thatdbeme]

The Prius takes about 800,000km to make a save over the price.

compared to which car?

[SlickHolden]

To a normal car about the same size.

[fpv_gtho]

Exactly...A Prius is almost $15-20K more than a Corolla or $10-15K more than a 4cyl Camry, which is what you'd chose if you didnt get a Prius.

Ford's at a disadvantage with whatever diesel engine they chose as it'll just increase the price deficit having to import them into the country, whereas LPG engines are made here. The problem with a factory LPG Territory seems to be the tank taking up the legroom for the 3rd row of seats, so Ford could be waiting for the next Territory to be able to accomodate for that

[SlickHolden]

So maybe a base model Diesel to keep the price down?
What type of Diesels have they to choose from.

[fpv_gtho]

Theres 2 variants of the 2.7L V6 to consider, theres a newly released one being built at the same plant as the V6, but thats reserved atm. There'd be a variety of truck diesels, but i cant think of many else that would compare with the 2.7 that Ford would have access to.

[SlickHolden]

Be alright if they could build them and export them from Here.

[Blue Supra]

i cant see diesel being massive, its 15c a litre more then ULP here atm. i know it gets you further to a tank but 15c a litre in a 70L+ tank is a considerable amount...

[fpv_gtho]

Well ignoring the higher purchase price, it ends up being more economical as you get more mileage for your dollar, same with LPG. Problem comes when people charge $5K more for the engines, and youre stuck for the next 5 years offsetting a lower running cost with a higher retail price. Alot of the small Euro's with diesel engines, if it had a petrol engine you'd have to stick premium unleaded in them anyway, as they dont work off 91 octane.

[nota]

It's worth noting that new low sulphur diesel fuel is not always readily available. My local servo still doesn't have it, nor do many others in NSW and southern Queensland, due to engineering delays at Caltex refineries in Qld and Sydney

[fpv_gtho]

Not to mention many rural servo's will work their diesel pumps around big rigs, not VW Golf's..LPG doesnt have so many worries

[charged]

Well ignoring the higher purchase price, Problem comes when people charge $5K more for the engines

Brother just bought out the run out Prado GLX the petrol and diesel are the same price. The diesel in the Prado is the old style

1kzte, its not the new version DID from the hilux or hiace, he's getting 13l/100 round town and 10-11l/100 on the highway and

its only done 5000km

[SlickHolden]

Diesel is maybe only good if your travailing a lot and can get the most out of it.

[fpv_gtho]

Most alternative fuels are like that, cuz the best way youre gunna recoup the loss for buying something more expensive is to drive more...

[2ndclasscitizen]

Alot of the small Euro's with diesel engines, if it had a petrol engine you'd have to stick premium unleaded in them anyway, as they dont work off 91 octane.
All VAG FSI engines need 98RON. I was surprised when I saw that a base 2litre 110kw FSI 4 cylinder like in the Jetta needed it.

[henk4]

Theres 2 variants of the 2.7L V6 to consider, theres a newly released one being built at the same plant as the V6, but thats reserved atm. There'd be a variety of truck diesels, but i cant think of many else that would compare with the 2.7 that Ford would have access to.

Reportedly Ford is working on a V8 variant of this engine, which I am sure will silence all critical sounds about diesel being lound, lazy and smelley (filters will take care of that).
Apart from that the choice for whatever fuel will be to a large extent depending on the government levies put on those fuels. You can bet that in case low taxed LPG will become the predominant way of propulsion, the government will start looking for compensation for the reduction in income.

On top of that it has to be realised that LPG propelled cars, and I am now talking about Europe, have restricted access to some premises, liking parking garages and are totally banned from travelling the Europe-UK Tunnel, in spite of the fact that all cars are put on trains and the engines are off.

Finally, the use of LPG will always require two fuel tanks, resulting in less space and additional weight.

[fpv_gtho]

That COULD be the engine i refered to, its being built alongside the 2.7 right? If so, theyre only building 25K units for the first couple of years...

Conventionally, LPG does have 2 tanks, when its setup for dual fuel, but Ford in particular run Falcons on 100% LPG here, so whilst its still the one tank, they dont have the LPG tanks in the same place as the petrol tanks, in the rear section of the floor, so they still do reduce the boot space.


On top of that it has to be realised that LPG propelled cars, and I am now talking about Europe, have restricted access to some premises, liking parking garages and are totally banned from travelling the Europe-UK Tunnel, in spite of the fact that all cars are put on trains and the engines are off.

That really is weird. Forklifts here at least, HAVE to be on LPG if theyre going to be used indoors for the reduced emissions..

[henk4]

That COULD be the engine i refered to, its being built alongside the 2.7 right? If so, theyre only building 25K units for the first couple of years...

Conventionally, LPG does have 2 tanks, when its setup for dual fuel, but Ford in particular run Falcons on 100% LPG here, so whilst its still the one tank, they dont have the LPG tanks in the same place as the petrol tanks, in the rear section of the floor, so they still do reduce the boot space.



That really is weird. Forklifts here at least, HAVE to be on LPG if theyre going to be used indoors for the reduced emissions..

the 2.7 PSA/Ford engine is the standard fit for the European cars, like the
C6, the 607 and the Jaguars. The V8 is being developed out of that and will surely also see the light in the Jaguars and the US Fords

[nota]

I was wondering when you'd show up ;)


Apart from that the choice for whatever fuel will be to a large extent depending on the government levies put on those fuels. You can bet that in case low taxed LPG will become the predominant way of propulsion, the government will start looking for compensation for the reduction in income.

As I understand it, European diesel is taxed much lower than petrol, hence its predominance over there. With that in mind, are you similarly expecting euro governments to increase their levies on distillate, to compensate for the reduction in income?

On top of that it has to be realised that LPG propelled cars, and I am now talking about Europe, have restricted access to some premises, liking parking garages and are totally banned from travelling the Europe-UK Tunnel, in spite of the fact that all cars are put on trains and the engines are off.
No such restrictions here :p Btw I hear that Falcon LPG utes, as sold new in Britain, were/are exempt from central London's access restrictions due to their low-emission vehicle status

Finally, the use of LPG will always require two fuel tanks, resulting in less space and additional weight.
Why two tanks? :confused:

It could likewise be argued that diesels also mandate additional space and weight, resulting from heavier engine blocks/battery/starter/turbochargers/intercooler/particulate filters etc - not forgetting these new tanks of piss .. sorry urine .. sorry UREA! .. to cleanse their cancerous carcinogen clouds

[henk4]

As I understand it, European diesel is taxed much lower than petrol, hence its predominance over there. With that in mind, are you similarly expecting euro governments to increase their levies on distillate, to compensate for the reduction in income?

Why two tanks? :confused:

It could likewise be argued that diesels also mandate additional space and weight, resulting from heavier engine blocks/battery/starter/turbochargers/intercooler/particulate filters etc - not forgetting these new tanks of piss .. sorry urine .. sorry UREA! .. to cleanse their cancerous carcinogen clouds

In many European countries diesel is about the same price as petrol, but yes, in general diesel fuel is less taxed. (However I pay a considerable amount, about 500 Euro p/a, of additional road tax for having the pleasure of driving a diesel). There is now also a additional sales tax on new diesel vehicles, but not for those fitted with a particulate filter. (comparable in size and weight to cat. converters for gasoline cars).

LPG cars in Holland have two tanks, as they may also be required to use petrol in areas where LPG supply is not guaranteed. Additional space is also required as by law the LPG tank can only be filled up to 85% of its nominal capacity. LPG filling stations are not allowed in urban areas.
The use of LPG mostly gives a maximum range of about 400 km if you are lucky, while my diesel gives me at least twice the range, reducing the need for fuel stops.
The additional weight of the diesel engine and its aggregate I take for granted, given the excellent performance and economy you are getting from a modern diesel. (As the Ford guy mentioned, modern diesels are totally different from those built 5, (from a European prespective 10) years ago.

I will receive a new car with a particulate filter sometime during next week, I will start saving on the toilet use:D

[Lagonda]

I will receive a new car with a particulate filter sometime during next week, I will start saving on the toilet use:D
Don't forget to take pictures !

[henk4]

Don't forget to take pictures !

of the toilet use????