Jackass Clarkson destroys 911 [Archive] - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

McReis

05-29-2006, 03:15 AM

Haha that's just great. So that's where the idea of destroying caravans comes from. Interesting..

5th gear is friggin boring. You guys only get to see the boring parts with a lot of funny stuff left out, no idea why.

People who laugh at such a incredibly stupid act like pure destruction of an object that represents the biggest dream of millions of people must have an educational problem. Because everyone one who was decently educated, knows that destroying things that can be valuable to others, is a disrespect and an act of pure egoism. I have never destroyed a toy that I didn't like. And everytime I had toys I didn't use, my mom used to give them to charity or to some of our less afortuned neighbours.

ROFL!

i laughed when the headlight fell out.

Seriously, if you have the money. Why not? I'd take a 200, NSX, porsche, Ferrari even and smash derby it if i didnt have t o pay for it :D

Destroying a car just because you can, instead of making someone happy by offering him/her the car of their dreams, is not just being rich. It's being a completely stupid beast with no respect for other's dreams.

If you guys consider that a show for car enthusiasts and that ass a car expert, than you are completely messed up and though you think you love cars, you don't. You like the modern TV shows in general. Including those like "jackass" in wich everything you can see is the desgraceful condition to wich our generation has got in to.

Finally a note for Jeremy Clarkson:
He has some nice jokes, ok. (Though we don't even know if they are his). But why is that stupid hosting a show about cars? He clearly doesn't know how to drive properly. He doesn't understand what makes a good car (I remember when he said the Pug 306 was one of the worst cars ever, and after all the press said the car was good, he came back saying that he was wrong after all. :rolleyes: ).
And more important than that, he shows no respect for classic cars, no matter their value. So can please someone tell me, why him? Why a car show? Why isn't he hosting a show about ridicule haircuts? That would make sense.

robcooper

05-29-2006, 03:19 AM

I like 5th Gear. I used to like Top Gear until they started doing pointless things like caravan conkers and stuff. I am a petrolhead and want to learn about cars, not how to destroy them....

Rob

csl177

05-29-2006, 03:33 AM

You should have heard you people chear when he (almost) destroyed the Hi-Lux :) i have lost my interet in TopGear as a good show ages ago. As long as it's fast its good,when its slow it sux right away... I only watch it becasue there aint anything better on at sunday night...

Jeez, dude. I thought from your avatar you were a paragon of taste.:D

Maybe I'm an old fart Drakkie... but when TV sucks that bad, turn it off and consider wrenching on a project... it's a lot more fullfilling. Or get a DVR, and only watch programming that has some redeeming (for you) value. Or, there's always porn. :eek:

The HiLux is a classic Toyota truck, desired by many a collector.
Destroying stuff for entertainment seems regressive.

Lagonda

05-29-2006, 03:49 AM

People who laugh at such a incredibly stupid act like pure destruction of an object that represents the biggest dream of millions of people must have an educational problem. Because everyone one who was decently educated, knows that destroying things that can be valuable to others, is a disrespect and an act of pure egoism. I have never destroyed a toy that I didn't like. And everytime I had toys I didn't use, my mom used to give them to charity or to some of our less afortuned neighbours.
Who are YOU to insult me like that ?:mad:

If I were to own a Porsche like that I could do anything I please with it, no ? It's my damn car. And I do as I please with it. So what if it's someone dream car on the other side of the globe ?

It's just a car for crying out loud, it's not like he destroyed something of sentimental value to someone.

When I want to learn about the technical mertis of a certain car I buy a damn car mag that serves me with dry stats and tests.

Finally a note for Jeremy Clarkson:
He has some nice jokes, ok. (Though we don't even know if they are his). But why is that stupid hosting a show about cars? He clearly doesn't know how to drive properly. He doesn't understand what makes a good car (I remember when he said the Pug 306 was one of the worst cars ever, and after all the press said the car was good, he came back saying that he was wrong after all. :rolleyes: ).
Top Gear, and Jermemy, don't rate cars according to how technically good a car is. They rate a car according to it's coolness and soul, technical qualities are secondary. A 306 isn't really cool, it's a pretty utilitarian and simple car. And nor is it a technical marvel.

And more important than that, he shows no respect for classic cars, no matter their value. So can please someone tell me, why him? Why a car show? Why isn't he hosting a show about ridicule haircuts? That would make sense.
Don't know why you say this so I can't really comment on it. Why do you say that he doesn't have any respect for classic cars ?

McReis

05-29-2006, 03:59 AM

If I were to own a Porsche like that I could do anything I please with it, no ? It's my damn car. And I do as I please with it. So what if it's someone dream car on the other side of the globe ?
Thanks for making my point even clearer.

It's just a car for crying out loud, it's not like he destroyed something of sentimental value to someone.
Every classic car icon has sentimental value to me. At least because of the nights I spend dreaming of buying one and knowing that there is a possibility that I never will. Some people work their ass off their entire life, motivated by the distant possibility of owning a classic 911, and they die without making it. Imagine the frustration and their rage after seing that stupid making that. It's like insulting the working class.

They rate a car according to it's coolness and soul, technical qualities are secondary..
Wich proves they don't understand cars at all.

A 306 isn't really cool, it's a pretty utilitarian and simple car. And nor is it a technical marvel..
It's a fantastic car for it'd class. It's had a great chassis with great cornering hability and it was the base for one of the best FWD sports car ever: the GTI-6.

Don't know why you say this so I can't really comment on it. Why do you say that he doesn't have any respect for classic cars ?
You're kidding right?

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 04:11 AM

Let's get it inot context ..

He destroyed LOTS of cars as "fun items".

So you REALLY think the BBC woudl destroy a usable/recoverable vehicle ?
Yeah right.

It's a FUN ITEM, folks , some ( including the guy who posted the comment against it ) has it OUT OF CONTEXT.

To those who didnt' laugh at it then realise that many didn't find Monty Python funny AT ALL ..... until it was explaiend to them and broadcast for the 20th time :D

All the talk abotu how TG rates cars on cool wall ... AGAIN not getting the POINT of the item. AND trying to rationalise it jstu isnt' listening to the broadcasters --- it's Jeremy's rules !!! ANd if a car goes onto uncool because some middle aged guy thinks it cool then so be it :) See most Brits KNOW hte difference between humoru and fact :D

McReis

05-29-2006, 04:17 AM

So you REALLY think the BBC woudl destroy a usable/recoverable vehicle ?
Yeah right.

Anyway, it was a complete 911 bodyshell and it sounds like a functional 911 engine too. Destroying them is always a disrespect for those who spend years recovering cars. That "fun item" had a real and considerable value.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 04:24 AM

Anyway, it was a complete 911 bodyshell and it sounds like a functional 911 engine too. Destroying them is always a disrespect for those who spend years recovering cars. That "fun item" had a real and considerable value.
Do you knwo HOW MANY rusty , failing emissions, worn out 911s there ARE abotu here ?
LOADS.
Lets keep it in context..... we're not talking about somethign that is that rare or is cheap enough for "joe bloggs" to restore. We went over this with the Lambo they "destroyed" .... if it's on it's way to the scrappies then it's gone.
It may hurt every 911-wannabee-owner BUT they DO get crushed !!!!

MrKipling

05-29-2006, 04:27 AM

^^ That's it - it's not even like Top Gear are pretending to be a serious car show - so why the beef?

I, personally, find 5th Gear even more irritating (as I have said before) they just totally miss the point of cars. If it's a supermini they have some totally boring, quasi-relevant set of tests; then they send Tiff round Anglesey in it to do lift-off-oversteer. How can you have three racing drivers doing a 'What Car?' type show?

As for Clarkson, he is one of the finest journalistic writers this country has - just go to his page on timesonline.co.uk, scroll to the bottom and read some of his opionion columns. Clarkson is the person who brought humour to motoring journalism and, as a motoring journalist, I thank him for that. He made opinion important in his field - he is to cars what Hunter S Thompson was to Rock and Roll.

As for the Hilux feature, they were just using an amusing way of demonstrating how hard-arse that car is!

whiteballz

05-29-2006, 04:31 AM

wtf? this is random...

IT is just a car, granted many people want it, but how many guys want sex with (for eg) pam anderson, (personally i find her unattractive) and was it wrong of tommy lee not to share her around to those that aspire to having sex with her?

i know bad example but its the basic facts, you nor i know the full story of the car, so its useless to get so worked up about it.

honestly, whats the huge deal? everyone else got over it.

McReis

05-29-2006, 04:31 AM

Do you knwo HOW MANY rusty , failing emissions, worn out 911s there ARE abotu here ?
LOADS.
Lets keep it in context..... we're not talking about somethign that is that rare or is cheap enough for "joe bloggs" to restore. We went over this with the Lambo they "destroyed" .... if it's on it's way to the scrappies then it's gone.
It may hurt every 911-wannabee-owner BUT they DO get crushed !!!!

I don't know how it works there. But I have seen much less valuable car in much, much worse condition being completely recovered. in portugal it's probably cheaper to recover that 911 than to buy a pristine example. And what I meant to say is that the car had a value even if it was as a donor. Because, as you said, it's no cheap to recover a 911.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 04:40 AM

I don't know how it works there. But I have seen much less valuable car in much, much worse condition being completely recovered. in portugal it's probably cheaper to recover that 911 than to buy a pristine example. And what I meant to say is that the car had a value even if it was as a donor. Because, as you said, it's no cheap to recover a 911.
AS I SAID.
911s go to the scrap yards of the UK every day.

Sorry you live in a place where they're not as popular and people have tens of thousands of euros to get them on the road again.

Believing every car can and should be saved soon wears off when you own cars long enough. It took me a couple of years to stop feeling guilty about Bagheera's getting crushed. But I turn down at least 2-3 A YEAR !! There are about 6 I know of in the UK alone that are there "free to a good home" if only you take it away.

BTW, do you show the same concern when you see Hollywood destroy a BRAND NEW car ?

MrKipling

05-29-2006, 04:40 AM

Floccinaucinihilipilification

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 04:48 AM

Floccinaucinihilipilification
Had to look that one up :)
Does it imply any "true" value to the item judged worthless ?
I'm betting Bill Gates doesn't give a toss :D

McReis

05-29-2006, 04:51 AM

AS I SAID.
911s go to the scrap yards of the UK every day.

Sorry you live in a place where they're not as popular and people have tens of thousands of euros to get them on the road again.

That's exactly what happens. People don't have too much money here. But they are rare cars here and it's inimaginable to send one to a scrapyard here before taking every working piece out of them and using every bit to recover another 911.

BTW, do you show the same concern when you see Hollywood destroy a BRAND NEW car ?
Yes, it hurts if it's a rare car. But what annoys me more here is not having a purpose for destruction. This is not art and not a film. It's just a stupid guy destroying a car. What's fun about that? Do you really think that's funny? Did you laugh with that? If you did, then ok, I rest my case.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 05:08 AM

That's exactly what happens. People don't have too much money here. But they are rare cars here and it's inimaginable to send one to a scrapyard here before taking every working piece out of them and using every bit to recover another 911.
Yeah, well there are MANY companies in teh UK with parts on the shelves.
AND the TV show is a UK show.
So you gotta accept our values.
If you really think it worth it then you should consider buying up the "scrappers" and shipping them to Portugal, sastripping them and selling the parts ..... but I'm betting it doens't work out profitable :D ( cos if it didn then it woudl have happened already and 911 prices would be high enough for Jeremy to ahve baulked at doing it.

Yes, it hurts if it's a rare car. But what annoys me more here is not having a purpose for destruction. This is not art and not a film. It's just a stupid guy destroying a car. What's fun about that? Do you really think that's funny? Did you laugh with that? If you did, then ok, I rest my case.
erm, "this is not art and not a film" ?
What planet are you on today ??
Of course it was.
It was from one of Clarksons VERY SUCCESSFUL DVDs.
It clearly isnt' "art" you enjoy ... I personally dont' like Bergman movies. But I'm not a nazi about the use of time and materials to produce and show them :D
It' IS fun.
As said before .... it took 20 years for folks to understand Motny Python humour. Brits DO find it funny. Jsut as slipping on a banana skin was funny in silent movies. ( Hey that's making fun of someone hurting themslevs -- ban it !!! )

Simple "test" on it is do you find it funny when he catapulted Nissans or crushed caravans ? Yes ? Well then, hypcorisy to not find the 911 destruction too. ( or do we remember laughing at Black&white minstrel shows and not feel guilty now ? )

McReis

05-29-2006, 05:20 AM

Simple "test" on it is do you find it funny when he catapulted Nissans or crushed caravans ? Yes ? Well then, hypcorisy to not find the 911 destruction too. ( or do we remember laughing at Black&white minstrel shows and not feel guilty now ? )

No. I found it incredibly disgusting too. It's a moral question. I can't see fun in pure destruction of things that work. Maybe it's just me. If that meets the brit sense of fun, then you guys have evolved the wrong way since the great Monthy Python stuff.
I'm thankful for the hypocrite label, but if you don't mind, I'll refuse it.

IBrake4Rainbows

05-29-2006, 05:35 AM

I think the more you talk about the issue the more likely Clarkson is to do something like it again.

henk4

05-29-2006, 05:36 AM

He could have done the whole thing in a different way if he just wanted to show how solid the 911 is built. Rather than that he choose to lambash the car first (listen to his comments about the dash and the closeness of the front window), and then decides that it should be destroyed under the pretense of what I mentioned in the first line here. By simply stating that the they were going to show the build quality using a totally written-off car, he might have contributed to the issue in a positive way. What he choose to do is both literally and figuratively a destructive sort of journalism.

Being an avid fan of Monty Python I totally fail to see the parallel with this sort of humour.

McReis

05-29-2006, 05:43 AM

I think the more you talk about the issue the more likely Clarkson is to do something like it again.
Fortunately (unfortunately?) he doesn't read my opinions about him. :)

IBrake4Rainbows

05-29-2006, 05:47 AM

He's an attention seeker - the more attention he recieves, the more likely he is to act out. I've delt with heaps of them in my classes at school, who were causing more detriment to the Youth of Canberra than him.

They've all met their uppance :p

But seriously, the old saying 'Any PR is good PR' applies here - people talk about Top Gear and JC, they watch the show wondering what they will do next, and the cycle continues.

Break the cycle, people. :)

<This message brought to you by Fifth Gear....>

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 06:12 AM

Fifth gear is boring and gets a FRACTION of the audience of TG.
Clarkson DVDs outsell almost every other car DVD added together.
Time to get over it folks that we have a sense of humour and you don't :D

Clarkson gives his audience what they want to see.
It's called "enterntainment" ..... if you dont' get an audience you don't get the funding to do it :D

So far I've not seen ONE anti-911-trash complain about any Hollywood movie :D

There are DOZENS of programs been done on the strength and featuers of a 911 and I'm sure many will have shown "official" crash test vids. It's missing the point to want more of the same :D

csl177

05-29-2006, 06:21 AM

[QUOTE=Matra et AlpineWhat planet are you on today ??

It was from one of Clarksons VERY SUCCESSFUL DVDs.
It clearly isnt' "art" you enjoy ... I personally dont' like Bergman movies. It' IS fun.
As said before .... it took 20 years for folks to understand Motny Python humour. Brits DO find it funny. Jsut as slipping on a banana skin was funny in silent movies. ( Hey that's making fun of someone hurting themslevs -- ban it !!! )

QUOTE]

Well, we Americans don't understand why the French like Jerry Lewis so much :D ... but then, 40 million of us think the lowest-common-denominator of American Idol is great (very successful) entertainment. :eek: Yeah, it blows.

Look, have fun with it if you want. I'm pretty sure there's no chance of it being banned. But it isn't the Fish Dance.

Some of us are simply expressing an opinion that this isn't productive for the motoring hobby.

Carney shows and county fairs used to trash old locomotives, cars, and WW1 biplanes for spectacle too... entertainmment for the masses. And our historical references to these examples of engineering are the poorer for it, with few examples of these devices left for future generations to appreciate and enjoy. Once, common Hudson Terraplanes were popular to crash into flaming walls in the 1950s... try finding a good example today. Not that mid-1970-80s daily transports are in anyway worthy of reverence. The point is, parts is parts, and if commonplace autos are destroyed for fun, pretty soon there goes the rarer stuff. There are NO Bagheera's in the US to speak of.
Original parts for once common things like my little BMW 700 Sport or Cabrio? Now made of Unobtanium...hard to get and expensive, even in Europe. While you almost can't give away an old Lancia in America, they seem to fetch a pretty Eruo.

I'm gonna stay out of these threads from now on as my principle interests are classic cars. :)
But I will say, culture devolves as we allow it. Entropy is, after all, the natural state of the universe.

And please, don't compare what that wanker is doing with old Porsches to the comic genius of Python. Clarkson is no Henry Manney.

spi-ti-tout

05-29-2006, 06:23 AM

By simply stating that the they were going to show the build quality using a totally written-off car, he might have contributed to the issue in a positive way. What he choose to do is both literally and figuratively a destructive sort of journalism.

Being an avid fan of Monty Python I totally fail to see the parallel with this sort of humour.
Ever heard the saying "You only know the true value of something when you don't have it anymore"?

It was an escuse for destroying the car but on the subject of the escuse, well, you'll only know how tough it was if you see how much it could resist right?

He can be banned from the television show but the fact is it is STILL funny. It was made in UK FOR the British and if they're satisfied then why should Clarkson think about anybody else. I'm lucky to be born here where you can adapt nearly every culture (accent, humour etc) simultaniously and once you get by the fact that it's done and he's not going to stop anytime soon, you might as well enjoy it. BTW guys (you know who you are) if you want to debate about this please refrain from personal comments as it'll only create misunderstanding :) Clarkson is different in his own way, just like Mr Bean when he blew paint in his room or slipped in the toilet or fell down the stairs or left a child crying and you never had anybody complain about that (as far as I can remember, anyway). In the end, if you like it, watch it, if you don't, then don't!

/endthread

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 06:43 AM

[Once, common Hudson Terraplanes were popular to crash into flaming walls in the 1950s... try finding a good example today. Not that mid-1970-80s daily transports are in anyway worthy of reverence.
yep. THere arent' many Morris Marina's around either -- commonly used in 70s car shows for police car chases and crashed.
Does anyone care ?
No it was a POS and haivng the last oen STILL doesn't make it desirable :D

The point is, parts is parts, and if commonplace autos are destroyed for fun, pretty soon there goes the rarer stuff.
The point I was making is that these things are going to the scrap yard DAILY.
There are already companies srtripping and shelving in the hope of making a fortune in some time in the future.
BUT there is a limit there too.
We can get all misty-eyed as we like but MONEY is what determines it and once there are "enough" 911 parts on shelves then the rest have little value.

There are NO Bagheera's in the US to speak of.
AFAIK there are NO Bagheeras in the US, so it's no great loss :D
But the Bag isnt' a collectable and it's uniqeness isnt' special enough ( 3 seats abreast ) that it will NEVER become a 911 comparable collectible.
That's economics and taste for you.

Original parts for once common things like my little BMW 700 Sport or Cabrio? Now made of Unobtanium...hard to get and expensive, even in Europe. While you almost can't give away an old Lancia in America, they seem to fetch a pretty Eruo.
Yep and as prices and availability increases then the remainging cars become worth saving.
So in 50 years time you wont see JC smash a 911 :D
But while there's so many duffers around then it's fair game for humour.
( BTW ebay.co.uk today has 43 911s for sale and a mere £3500 nets you a 1972 PORSCHE 911 TURBO TARGA RED )

I'm gonna stay out of these threads from now on as my principle interests are classic cars. :)
And you know so are mine.
Perhaps it's because I've been doign this for 20+ years with Bagheera's and have grasped the REAL value of a car and the NECESSITY to let some go for scrap :D

But I will say, culture devolves as we allow it. Entropy is, after all, the natural state of the universe.
Or alternately, life imitating art, then folks will start appreciating other cars and not hold 911s on a pedestal and more BMW 700s will be saved !!!

And please, don't compare what that wanker is doing with old Porsches to the comic genius of Python. Clarkson is no Henry Manney.
And SITLL mnissed the point .... you do know how much of the world called anyone laughing at MP wankers and the program makers imbeciles :D :OWNED: :D

Also, you need to read ALL of Clarkson if you wan tto do comparisons with Manney. So many think of him only of what they see on TG :( That's like deciding GWB is an idiot because of his speeches --- oh wait :D

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 06:50 AM

There is no 1972 Turbo.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 06:54 AM

Ever heard the saying "You only know the true value of something when you don't have it anymore"?
the other thign to note to is to keep somethign COSTS.

I always have this convo on saving cars.
There are still Bag owners who want every Bag saved.
BUT when you ask them to pay fo rth storage costs, ot to pay to build a garage on their property and pay taxes to store it it all cahnges.

It's kind of NIMBY :D

Everyone wants them kept but nobody can find the money, space or time to do it themselves....... and expect someone else should.

I'm doing "my bit" with parts of 3 Bags .... :D
I can't expect OTHER people to spend money.

The previous owner of JCs 911 crasher had to get rid of it.
This week alone there are 43 UK folks using eBay to get rid of their 911s.
We can't expect those 43 people to keep the car so it doesn't disappear :D

If anyone REALLY feels that bad about the 911 then take some action to stop the NEXT ONE on it's way to the scrap yard. Pay the scrap value ( about £100 these days ), find somewhere to store it. Then go for the NEXT ONE after that .... oh wait .... you can't do them all ? WHY NOT ?? Herecy .... let a 911 go to be scrapped ?? yep. It happens guys. Stop wishing others will save cars you want kept for some reason.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 06:56 AM

There is no 1972 Turbo.
Go tell the seller ..... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1972-PORSCHE-911-TURBO-TARGA-RED_W0QQitemZ4644405359QQcategoryZ9860QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

I only passed it on.

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 07:03 AM

Go tell the seller ..... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1972-PORSCHE-911-TURBO-TARGA-RED_W0QQitemZ4644405359QQcategoryZ9860QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

I only passed it on.

It's in need of a restoration and looks a lot worse than the one destroyed by Fruitcake Clarkson and yet is still worth 3500 Pounds. It makes me highly doubt that 911s are brought to scrapyards in the UK every day.

henk4

05-29-2006, 07:03 AM

Go tell the seller ..... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1972-PORSCHE-911-TURBO-TARGA-RED_W0QQitemZ4644405359QQcategoryZ9860QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

I only passed it on.

from the looks of it, it is a woman who is selling the car.....

spi-ti-tout

05-29-2006, 07:07 AM

the other thign to note to is to keep somethign COSTS.

I always have this convo on saving cars.
There are still Bag owners who want every Bag saved.
BUT when you ask them to pay fo rth storage costs, ot to pay to build a garage on their property and pay taxes to store it it all cahnges..
I only used the quote to get to that "see how tough it is" next liner, I never implied it should be spared ;)

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 07:10 AM

It makes me highly doubt that 911s are brought to scrapyards in the UK every day.
OK. maybe not EVERY day !!!

I'll take a fecking photo next time I'm in Sportscar Breakers :(

Jeesus, noobs !!!

THAT is a RUNNER ... her's another RUNNER .... http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WWW/CARS_popup.asp?modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&make=PORSCHE&model=911&variant=&keywords=&min_pr=75&max_pr=&mileage=&agerange=&postcode=eh52+5qy&miles=&max_records=50&source=0&photo=1&sort=3&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH&start=10&distance=322&adcategory=CARS&channel=CARS&id=200621236895195

We're talkgin abotu cars that have failed MOT.
Have major costs to restore.
We went over this BS with the Lambo.
If it costs £5,000 for an engine rebuild on a 911 and it would then be worth £5,000 then only an idiot stops it going to the scrap yard !!!
Maybe personal finances work differently when it's in Euros :D

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 07:15 AM

I only used the quote to get to that "see how tough it is" next liner, I never implied it should be spared ;)
ah sorry took it the other way round :D

henk4

05-29-2006, 07:29 AM

R34GTR

05-29-2006, 07:29 AM

people complaining about Clarkson destroying a Porsche are taking this way to serious. the film dates from a few years ago, get over it he usually does this caravans etc. I thought it was funny to watch. so don't make such a big deal out of it it's not. If Clarkson were ever to read some of these comments he'd laugh out loud. And so would I

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 07:31 AM

If it costs £5,000 for an engine rebuild on a 911 and it would then be worth £5,000 then only an idiot stops it going to the scrap yard !!!
Maybe personal finances work differently when it's in Euros :D

If that logic would actually be applied there would be no historic cars left at all. It's rediculous to expect a repair to any car to be worth the money. I'm positive that you have spent more on your cars than they have increased in worth. So it would have been best to send them to the breakers or let Idiot Clarkson destroy it. Also I don't appreciate being called a noob.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 07:39 AM

the fact that 911s go to the scrapyard and yet it is unpleasant to see one destroyed so clumsily gives rise to the following analogy.

For those how regularly eat meat it a considered to be a fact of life that cattle ends up in a slaughterhouse. Yet one cannot escape to feel slightly embarrassed when you see a cow being killed right in front of you...
Nope doesnt' bother me.
nor my daughter who regularly eats chicken from the farmers own flock.
She even knows the names of the ones she's eating.
Go to any village in France andn they're comfortable with eatign what they see. Go to third world areas and village food is the previous days village pet :D

NOT knowing and accepting our food chain is perhaps an underlying indicator of those who want every 911 to somehow be miracoulously saved :D

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 07:45 AM

If that logic would actually be applied there would be no historic cars left at all. It's rediculous to expect a repair to any car to be worth the money. I'm positive that you have spent more on your cars than they have increased in worth. So it would have been best to send them to the breakers or let Idiot Clarkson destroy it. Also I don't appreciate being called a noob.
Wouter you've missed the basics of car economics.

Once a car becomes less available then the value of that car to potential owersn becomes higher and so teh £5000 repair produces a car that can be sodl for £10,000 and then it's viable.

Thought that was obvious :)

Of course the idiots who fuelled the classic car boon of the 80s got their fingers burnt badly and we are now in a ore realistic realm where some carsdo NOT get salvaged and prices are more "sensible" ( well apart form the serious idiots who will still shell out for the cachet :D )

erm you dont' like the "noob" ? then please read ?
I've made it clear I've already let MANY Bagheera's go the the scrap yard.
I even explained at length the economics of it and why I'm at three :D
Sorry W, that is worthy of an :owned: :D

AS I had said, everyone would like cars saved as long as it's not THEM having to put in the effort and the cost. The world doesnt' work like that.
Yes, sometimes we lose things forever ... but in general the last 50 years has created a realisation of the value of "history" much more than the previous 100 years had ( with the exception of hine furniture and jewellery :D )
So as the 911s become rarer then less will go to the scrap yard. Until then you have to jsut accept THAT is economics at play :D

henk4

05-29-2006, 07:49 AM

Go to third world areas and village food is the previous days village pet :D

Any analogy has its flaws, but in this case:
go to third world areas and try to discover slaughterhouses.
go to third wolrd countries and try discover 911s:D

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 07:51 AM

erm you dont' like the "noob" ? then please read ?
I've made it clear I've already let MANY Bagheera's go the the scrap yard.
I even explained at length the economics of it and why I'm at three :D
Sorry W, that is worthy of an :owned: :D

The use of the word noob is a sign of having no respect for the person you are discussing with. If your only desire is to 'own the noobs' I have lost all respect for your discussion standards regardless on wether I agree with you or not.

Thank you,
WM

henk4

05-29-2006, 07:53 AM

Once a car becomes less available then the value of that car to potential owersn becomes higher and so teh £5000 repair produces a car that can be sodl for £10,000 and then it's viable.

This is very sound thinking but why is it that you regularly see cars being advertised, of which people claim that they recently (so after the 1980's boom) spent a lot of money on, which is many times even more than the current asking price???
If your approach is taken up by everybody, then we would not see any old Maserati or Lamborghini on the road again. You can buy an Espada for say 15,000 (whatever currency) put 25,000 worth of repairs/refurbishment in it, but don't expects that it will be worth 40,000 after that exercise.

McReis

05-29-2006, 08:06 AM

Clarkson DVDs outsell almost every other car DVD added together.
Time to get over it folks that we have a sense of humour and you don't :D

Clarkson gives his audience what they want to see.
It's called "enterntainment" ..... if you dont' get an audience you don't get the funding to do it :D

If that's having a sense of humour, congrats on yours but I don't want one.

Clarks gives the audience what the audience wants to see? Ok. Then Wouter should close this website and make a website only about tuners, plastic bits, giant stereos, fart cans and such. Because at the days we're living, the real classic car lovers are a fraction of those who claim to be "into cars".

But I will say, culture devolves as we allow it.
My point exactly.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:07 AM

This is very sound thinking but why is it that you regularly see cars being advertised, of which people claim that they recently (so after the 1980's boom) spent a lot of money on, which is many times even more than the current asking price???
Because the world is full of people who put emotion ahead of intelligence.
Smart buyers find teh peopel who've spent thousands and can pick it up for less :D
I've an offer in on a Murena because the buyer has spent £3000 on doing it up. MUCH more than the car is worth. We'll see. The point comes when sellers realise they have to cut their losses.
The "best" are kit cars. Some will spend THOUSANDS putting in fantastic interiors or highly tuned engines without investigating market prices. it's NEVER recovered. The worst losers in kit cars are those who PAY others to build them. You can NEVER recoup it :(

If your approach is taken up by everybody, then we would not see any old Maserati or Lamborghini on the road again. You can buy an Espada for say 15,000 (whatever currency) put 25,000 worth of repairs/refurbishment in it, but don't expects that it will be worth 40,000 after that exercise.
Again, you've missed that as there are less of them the cachet grows and the VALUE increases so the money anyone can afford to invest to restore and run it increases. So they are saved...... jstu not tens of thousands of them :D
It's supply and demand economics at it's simplest.
At some point you MIGHT be able to get more than 40K for it and then it makes sense.
All of this also ignores the illogical love some owners have for cars.
( Even in the UK there is a devout Marina owner who brings his car to EVERY show !! )
Bagheera will NEVER recoup what I invested. But it's a hobby I pay for. I don't expect someone ELSE to pay to make my hobby cheaper tho' by keepign more cars on the road :)

The compaints abotu JC and the 911 MIGHT have a case if the complainer were upset at not being able to find a 911 at all -- rather than not finding it as cheap as can be afforded. That there are plenty then it's plain economics. After all a 911 is NOT a particularly unique car.
( there's a GTA shell is about to go to the scrappies if nobody in the Alpine club takes it off the current owners hands. It will go. Because there are plenty others around !!! )

A friend bought an E-type basket case for £20K at the height of the classic car bubble , spent another £20-30K on it and it's NOW worth about £25K. Just like the stock market, classic car values can go down as well as up.
LOTS of folks learned that noob lesson the hard way in the 80s. I thought it made it VERY clear not to get too emotional over cars :D

Sauc3

05-29-2006, 08:08 AM

Wouter you've missed the basics of car economics.
Does passion come anywhere into this? Or have I just not read that bit yet.

Cotterik

05-29-2006, 08:09 AM

haha clarkson is such a legend. that 911 sounds realy unhealthy if you listen closely, it was probably due for scrap or something like that anyway. Seeing a porsche being destroyed isnt something you see every day! i find it entertaining :)

henk4

05-29-2006, 08:11 AM

I thought it made it VERY clear not to get too emotional over cars :D

can I advise you to read the words underneath the UCP logo right above? If nobody gets emotional about cars, we would not be having this conversation because this site would not exist.

Cotterik

05-29-2006, 08:14 AM

Roy Visser

05-29-2006, 08:19 AM

You guys do know that this wasnt in Top Gear?

for your information also, the body was beyond repair, as was the engine. Which they even took out for parts before the explosion (someone mentioning it ran fine? I dont know if you ever heard a 70's Porsche, but thats not the sound what it makes ;) )

the body was so far gone, that noone in the right state of mind would want it as a restoration project, there are simply far more porsches who are allot easier to restore.

i myself am a porsche enthusiast, and i dont like seeing the car like that, but stating that it was a perfectly fine car to begin with..

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:20 AM

The use of the word noob is a sign of having no respect for the person you are discussing with. If your only desire is to 'own the noobs' I have lost all respect for your discussion standards regardless on wether I agree with you or not.

Thank you,
WM
erm the word "noob" was used to indicate lack of knowledge and understanding in an area in a humourous way.

from wiki ( I know a noob to expect it to be truthful :) )
A newbie is a newcomer to a particular field, the term being commonly used on the Internet, where it might refer to new, inexperienced, or ignorant users of a game, a newsgroup, an operating system or the Internet itself. The term is generally regarded as an insult, although in many cases more experienced/knowledgeable people use it in purposes of negative reinforcement, urging “newbies” to learn more about the field or area in question.

THe comments re classic car ownership didn't reflect the experience in the Alpine, Matra, brit-cars and kit car clubs and owners in the UK. I tagged your inputs as "noob" in the classic car and restoration market. ( Probably highly skewed by your attendance to events at teh TOP end of the spectrum. Drop in on yrou local classic car club meet for the other side fo the fence )

You know me by now W, I really dont' care what anyone on an internet thinks of me as long as it relfects what I have said and supported. I only get "upset" when it doesn't reflect what I've said ( ie implies lying ). Beyond that my words are me. I've tried explaining farily simple concepts which you ignored for reasons byond me and led to the "noob". If it upset you that much then fine. If you think you DID understand it but I failed to se that in yrou replies then I'll retract it immediately as my error. BUT I've read over it again. I still think that you're being unrealistic in thinking SOMEONE ELSE should throw money away saving cars.

We've gone a million miles from the main point and that was it was funny to those it was aimed at.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:23 AM

Does passion come anywhere into this? Or have I just not read that bit yet.
Of course it does and already stated -- you think my family appreciates having 3 Bageeras and bits spread over the house ?

BUT an individuals "passion" shouldn't be based on someone else "funding it" :D

Keeping uneconomical cars on the road is a passion for those who undertake it. EXPECTING someone else to keep the car on the road is a bit much tho' :D

( I've had guys emotioanlly blackmail me to remove Bagheeras. Tellign me plainly that it will go to the scrap yard. Liek I'm supposed to pay to move it and store it for some "greater purpose" :D )

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:26 AM

can I advise you to read the words underneath the UCP logo right above? If nobody gets emotional about cars, we would not be having this conversation because this site would not exist.
So where are the Lada entries ?

Come on Wouter, lets not get too misty-eyed over this.

THe "passion" is for some cars.

SERIOUSLY find me anyone to put there hand up and say they would pay for a Morris Marina ????

Would you pay to go visit a Honda Civic ricer convention ? AND provide a report on it ?

I'm all for cars, ive' got more than most :( ... but lets be REALISTIC :D
UCP is fantastic because it DOES have passion for some of the great cars.
But dont' try to make out it spreads to everything :D

henk4

05-29-2006, 08:26 AM

wait, does it strike anyone that porsche maybe gave clarkson the 911 as a mission to try and destroy it to prove how tough it is?

do you still get emotional when he destroys a Lada?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3xoRQd0dLk

as so often he missed the point completely. The Lada was based on (in fact a direct continuation of) the Fiat 124, which, many years before most of you were born was chosen European car of the year of 1966. It subsequently served a trainer car for yours truly to get his license.
To now claim that this is communist crap makes a mockery of Mr. C's historic perspective. Anybody surprised?
I can also tell you from very hands-on experience that in many countries people would be very happy to have been presented with that Lada, as it is avery simply car that almost everybody can repair (out of necessity, but that is another matter).

It is just the fun of pure destruction which bothers me. You might want to call it vandalism or hooliganism, just to serve the ratings. Bad taste...no culture.

henk4

05-29-2006, 08:27 AM

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:32 AM

I will put a Lada in the oddball corner of you insist. and it may have escaped you but there is a very lively thread about russian cars in this forum, to which many people have generously contributed
Good point, Pieter.

I was more thinking the UCP site.
it's funded by Wouters great efforts in good photo and coverage on great cars.

Yes, the forums .... but there are other forums with many more pictures.
ALpine one for Alpines, Matra one for Matras, Kit car one for Kit cars ... no doubt ther eis BOUND to be a Lada one :D

I was forgetting the collective efforts in my mention of UCP and Wouter's efforts.

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 08:34 AM

erm the word "noob" was used to indicate lack of knowledge and understanding in an area in a humourous way.

from wiki ( I know a noob to expect it to be truthful :) )
A newbie is a newcomer to a particular field, the term being commonly used on the Internet, where it might refer to new, inexperienced, or ignorant users of a game, a newsgroup, an operating system or the Internet itself. The term is generally regarded as an insult, although in many cases more experienced/knowledgeable people use it in purposes of negative reinforcement, urging “newbies” to learn more about the field or area in question.

There you go.

McReis

05-29-2006, 08:34 AM

It is just the fun of pure destruction which bothers me. You might want to call it vandalism or hooliganism, just to serve the ratings. Bad taste...no culture.

That's what annoys me. But most persons on this forum don't seem to be bothered with that. For me, that's a huge surprise.

Cotterik

05-29-2006, 08:37 AM

Heres some good entertainment:

clarkson destroying a rice-mobile! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIf-0S48WM0

Roy Visser

05-29-2006, 08:39 AM

So where are the Lada entries ?

Come on Wouter, lets not get too misty-eyed over this.

THe "passion" is for some cars.

SERIOUSLY find me anyone to put there hand up and say they would pay for a Morris Marina ????

Would you pay to go visit a Honda Civic ricer convention ? AND provide a report on it ?

I'm all for cars, ive' got more than most :( ... but lets be REALISTIC :D
UCP is fantastic because it DOES have passion for some of the great cars.
But dont' try to make out it spreads to everything :D

http://207.201.151.117/carclubs/lada.htm

and about the marina thingie:
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=Morris+Marina+club&meta=

there's allways enthusiasts, for anything, dont misjudge that

anybody who spents his time in anything at all and is enthusiastic about it, is passionate and deserves respect. I have respect for people with honda civics who put huge spoilers on it, i dont like it myself, but if the person who owns the car loves it, why should i be the one to say, thats horrible?

Thats like walking to someone's baby and calling it ugly, thats just something you shouldnt do..

very offtopic, but stating something like that, deserves a response

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 08:40 AM

That's what annoys me. But most persons on this forum don't seem to be bothered with that. For me, that's a huge surprise.
People only get bothered about it when it is a ultra mega supercar and/or a Ferrari getting wrapped around a pole.

Quiggs

05-29-2006, 08:43 AM

I thought it was funny. I guess that makes me a bad person.

There's over 100 pre-1990 Porsche 911's on eBay right now, so there's no shortage of vintage Porsches. I don't feel bad seeing him destroy one. Especially one that isn't road worthy anymore.

Quiggs

05-29-2006, 08:45 AM

SERIOUSLY find me anyone to put there hand up and say they would pay for a Morris Marina ????
I'd pay for this one... (I had no idea what a Morris Marina was before I Googled it just now. This thing is awesome.)

http://www.mantaworld.com/img/gallery/custom-cars/wheelsday2001/images/028_NR_JPG.jpg

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:46 AM

It is just the fun of pure destruction which bothers me. You might want to call it vandalism or hooliganism, just to serve the ratings. Bad taste...no culture.
Or you could argue that this was "better" than being stacked in a scrap yard and crushed with no one to mourn the loss or feel the need to save one.

I'm still waiting for ANY of the believers in "save the 911 from JC" camp on Hollywood movies, tv shows etc etc.

Destruction in the name of "art" and entertainment is a fact of life, from the first time man was seen slipping on a banana skin :D or how about John Cleese bashing his Austin 1100 with a tree branch in Fawlty Towers ?

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:49 AM

There you go.
seletive quoteing ( or was it reading )

Here I'll repeat the rest of it

although in many cases more experienced/knowledgeable people use it in purposes of negative reinforcement, urging “newbies” to learn more about the field or area in question

Doing exactly that in the comments on classic was what prompted the "noob" bit.

As I'd said, the only thing I ever get upset abotu on forusm is mis-representation by lyign or in this casse mis-quoting.

AS it's a forum we cant' tell whetehr you INTENDED that or didnt' read it . I'm giving benefit fo doubt and hoping the latter :(

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:50 AM

very offtopic, but stating something like that, deserves a response
we're actually saying the same thing I think
I just chose to do it by counter-point :D

henk4

05-29-2006, 08:54 AM

just had a brainwave (whilst preparing dinner)

If JC had used a brandnew X5, Cayenne, LS300, Murano, Tuareg. M-Class etc, I would have applauded:D

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 08:58 AM

I'd pay for this one... (I had no idea what a Morris Marina was before I Googled it just now. This thing is awesome.)
erm that is NOT a Marian.
That is a 4x4 chassis with a Marina shell tacked on top.

The biggest joke about the Marina was the Triple-C rally car project.

Cars and Car Conversions was THE magazine for the serious competitor, car truner int eh 60s-80s.

Each year they would build and compete a rally car with full details nad instructinos for thousands of readers to copy them for success.

Imp, Mini, Escort and many more.

THEN came the Marina.
For the first time ever, half way throught hte project they admitted defeat and apologised and stopped. EVERY time they took it out something broke on it.

It was an awful design ( it used threaded kingpins from a 50s designed car !! ) and made with "best" of 70s European steel which measn it rusts quicker than you can fix it :( THen it was "powered" by the BMC A-series engine. Made worse by announcing a "TC" option -- at the time that meant Twin Cam ( as the Lotus twink ) .... not the Marina ... it was Twin CARB :)
The car was a joke of the worst order in the British car industry :D

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/images/ado28bro_01.jpg

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 09:01 AM

seletive quoteing ( or was it reading )

Here I'll repeat the rest of it

although in many cases more experienced/knowledgeable people use it in purposes of negative reinforcement, urging “newbies” to learn more about the field or area in question

Doing exactly that in the comments on classic was what prompted the "noob" bit.

As I'd said, the only thing I ever get upset abotu on forusm is mis-representation by lyign or in this casse mis-quoting.

AS it's a forum we cant' tell whetehr you INTENDED that or didnt' read it . I'm giving benefit fo doubt and hoping the latter :(

There you go.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 09:01 AM

just had a brainwave (whilst preparing dinner)

If JC had used a brandnew X5, Cayenne, LS300, Murano, Tuareg. M-Class etc, I would have applauded:D

hmmm, not the Murano please, it's nice :D

Mayve we need to hijack this thread so that we can explore all those cars we WOULD want him to do it to.

Volvo. ( all of them, preferably with flat-capped driver strapped in )
City Rover
Veyron ( now COME ON ... that woudl be funny :D )

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 09:03 AM

There you go.
don't see the problem with "negative reinforcement" >

Dad never told you "dont do that" ? Or punished you for being bad ??

Or are we all to be tree-huggers and go around writing 5 hundred words on what all the positives are of an action so we can hint at the negative aspect of a part of it ? ( God I'm starting to sound like Clarkson :D )

puh-lease Wouter :(

Roy Visser

05-29-2006, 09:05 AM

just had a brainwave (whilst preparing dinner)

If JC had used a brandnew X5, Cayenne, LS300, Murano, Tuareg. M-Class etc, I would have applauded:D

havent you seen the last episode? The cayenne had a bit of an accident.

and in the winter olympic special, they drive either the Q7 or its Volvo counterpart against a tree :)

both not on purpose though

Quiggs

05-29-2006, 09:05 AM

Veyron ( now COME ON ... that woudl be funny :D )
I'd be on board for destroying every one of those atrocities.

Roy Visser

05-29-2006, 09:09 AM

Or are we all to be tree-huggers and go around writing 5 hundred words on what all the positives are of an action so we can hint at the negative aspect of a part of it ?

there are no words to describe the utter laughter im feeling right now

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 09:19 AM

there are no words to describe the utter laughter im feeling right now
Good, Maybe I can put that forward when I apply to replace Clarkson in his daily paper column :D

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 09:22 AM

havent you seen the last episode? The cayenne had a bit of an accident.

and in the winter olympic special, they drive either the Q7 or its Volvo counterpart against a tree :)

both not on purpose though
Oooh, reason to d/l the last ep ( I missed it :( )

There was also the hamster when he buried the landie into a lump of volcanic rock in Iceland :D

hmmm.... actually as I did see SOME of the last ep, then is nobody crying out for the VW Camper Van to be saved ???? :D

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 09:34 AM

don't see the problem with "negative reinforcement" >

Dad never told you "dont do that" ? Or punished you for being bad ??

Or are we all to be tree-huggers and go around writing 5 hundred words on what all the positives are of an action so we can hint at the negative aspect of a part of it ? ( God I'm starting to sound like Clarkson :D )

puh-lease Wouter :(
There is a distinct difference between pointing someone at a mistake and insulting (read owning a noob) someone for making a mistake. You have made the latter your trademark discussion method. It's all up to you, but it only makes me want to disagree with you even if I might agree. Of course you are always right and everybody who disagrees is an idiot.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 10:12 AM

There is a distinct difference between pointing someone at a mistake and insulting (read owning a noob) someone for making a mistake. You have made the latter your trademark discussion method. It's all up to you, but it only makes me want to disagree with you even if I might agree. Of course you are always right and everybody who disagrees is an idiot.
Wouter, it's plain and simple.
I think I had ALERADY pointed out the economics of the situation anda the intended humour of the article.
I'd repeated it.
Rather than it beign read it was easier to switch and avodi the points.
I tagged that as "noob" knowledge of the classic car owernship world.

Right. End of. You'd rather I spent anotehr 5 posts explaining ti again> I felt I'd already repeated and indicated that and felt justified in the tag.

not surpsigin you don't and that's your perogative.
BUT THEN give me the perogative of tagging you a "noob".

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 10:15 AM

You are ignoring what I said. You write a lot, but do not say much.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 10:27 AM

You are ignoring what I said. You write a lot, but do not say much.
Well it depends if one reads or not :(

Easily solved.

Either I write less and then there's less to read, or you read more :D

You're cryptic comment added nothing to the issue or my understanding
Are you NOW saying you made a mistake ( and defended it vehemtnly initially ) ?
If that's the case then all apologies but I'm not a mind reader and unaware that you HAD made a mistake at all as opposed to something else.

What IS this "mistake" ? Clarkson is a wanker ? ( but he is ) Value of cars ? economics ? classic car market knowledge ? I had TRIED to provide insight into each of those in my long posts. Sorry. Do you want less written and no explanations or no more insights or no just no more explanations of anythign ? Now I jsut dont' knwo whether you want INFORMATION or not :( See the problem abotu writing LESS is it can also convey LESS. Being concise is best, butdetailed explanations can make that hard ( ie value of 911s, value of Bags, economics of classic cars etc etc )

Easiest solution for tonight is no more from me in this thread.
( hell *I* tried to get it away from all this BS by suggesting a hijakc ... but I knwo how much "image" can overtake reality :D Don't mind being the bad-boy of UCP forums. But liek someone said you only value what you have when you miss it :D

Wouter Melissen

05-29-2006, 10:37 AM

I was no longer referring to the subject at hand, but rather at your negative and disrespectful attitude towards other people in a discussion -> your desire to 'own noobs'.

Piacki_117

05-29-2006, 11:08 AM

Are we supposed to laugh?

english humor

PerfAdv

05-29-2006, 12:48 PM

havent you seen the last episode? The cayenne had a bit of an accident.

and in the winter olympic special, they drive either the Q7 or its Volvo counterpart against a tree :)

both not on purpose though
...and in another episode the LR3 triumphed over the tallest mountain in Scotland...:rolleyes:

Seems the car choice is a little suspect. Iconic cars from other countries: Ze 911, Da mighty 'Vette, the more than exotic Lambo, the tougher than nails Toyota... If Clarkson and posse bust up some iconic British cars than he's just making fun of cars. Find some vids of him scorching Rolls' and junking Jags and maybe it's just equal opportunity vandalism. :D

I don't see this as a good economics or bad financial senses is destroying or preserving older cars. It's Clarkson taking pock shots at the best another country has to offer.

Imagine a show where original Minis are lined up side-by-side and an old very large Mercedes saloon (before crumple-zones era :D) and the object was to see how many Minis the Mercedes could demolish? The Minis aren't in super short supply are they? And these particular one were heading for the heap...so what's the harm, right? Still, insensitive as it's so pointed.

The_Canuck

05-29-2006, 12:50 PM

its funny how this same conversation didn't start in the mingun/corvette thread

spi-ti-tout

05-29-2006, 12:59 PM

Because the car in question was a 911 :rolleyes:

carbrochuretom

05-29-2006, 01:04 PM

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 01:30 PM

I was no longer referring to the subject at hand, but rather at your negative and disrespectful attitude towards other people in a discussion -> your desire to 'own noobs'.
Nope, no "desire to "own noobs" ever :(

A "desire" to share experience and facts in a fun manner.

A "desire" to respond to posts that don't seem to take points into consideration and conineu in conveyign a mistaken position.

A "desire" to have some FUN.

Looks like I'm coming at odds with the new broom that swept through with the changed look then :(

ah well, doesn't change the facts that not all classic cars can be saved, complaining about OTHERS not saving cars whilst doing nothing oneself is astoundingly selfish and Clarkson makes more money per word than we make in a whole year .... who're the fools ???

PS: and PLEASE explain to me how I was to have known that you were taling abotu my writing style and not the content ? As already said, can't expect mind-reading or clairvoyance. BE SPECIFIC.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 01:35 PM

Crap...I cant believe he destroyed that Piano. Everyone has their dislikes and well its obvious that Clarkson detests the porsches, as can be seen with all his latest remarks.

Is it really that bad...TOM CRUISE BLEW UP A LAMBORGHINI MURCIELAGO FOR CHRISTS SAKE lol:D :(
THANK YOU.

And one of those idiots from Jackass took a chainsaw to a Billy Idol's Lambo !!!!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/wbmore2/billylambo10pe.jpg

and of course the jumping bikes with a bus where they desotroyed abotu a doze motorbikes.

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 01:38 PM

Jack_Bauer

05-29-2006, 01:41 PM

hmm, Perf, did you MISS the whoel seires of eps of them stripping a lovely white XJS and ultimatelY CATAPULTING it off the aircraft carrier ?
And the time he made a mess of the exterior of a Rolls-Royce and jumped it into a swimming pool. As you do. :p

carbrochuretom

05-29-2006, 01:50 PM

THANK YOU.

And one of those idiots from Jackass took a chainsaw to a Billy Idol's Lambo !!!!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/wbmore2/billylambo10pe.jpg

and of course the jumping bikes with a bus where they desotroyed abotu a doze motorbikes.
Bam Margera or what ever his name is pissed on it aswell on the gumball rally:D

GO here >>>http://live.gumball3000.com/

Click watch!

Then click on Day 4 and Day 5, on Bam experiences and Rescuing bAM (Its something like that) Its funny:D

nota

05-29-2006, 02:00 PM

The humble Marina is so obscure these days it is largely forgotten and one of those vehicles which never rates a mention. So I was surprised to find that a factory Marina achieved 1st in class at the 1974 Thousand Lakes Rally of Finland ..

But it was never an outright winning car in the same vein as the Escort or any of its other competitors. It was more a class-winning car. In its first major event it finished in 18th position, giving Special Tuning some hope that the car might be a reasonable rally car. In the 1972 RAC Rally, BL team driver Brian Culcheth drove the 1300-engined car flat-out until the engine blew, again offering hope. Culcheth took the car to Finland for the 1973 Thousand Lakes Rally and came away buoyed by the fact that he finished fifteenth outright and second in class to that year's Finnish champion, Marko Sarristo. Even better, the margin to Sarristo was just 14 seconds. A young rising star by the name of Ari Vatanen, driving a 2 litre Opel, finished just behind Culcheth. Twelve months on, Culcheth returned to Finland in a car which, by that time, had had a little more development work done, and won his class.

For a while my work supplied me with a near-new Leyland Marina Coupe to run errands, I remember it well. For trivia it was the (unique to Oz) 2600cc 6 cylinder version with the factory three-on-the-floor and yes it was one of the exceedingly few of that spec which was painted pink! Not a sporty model just the base 'stripper' with rubber mats, so hardly sex on wheels eh? But anyway it was fun and a pretty lively unit I can tell you, especially on the narrow crossply tyres of the day. I have clear memories of flooring it at mid revs in 2nd gear (around 35-40mph) which even in a straight-line produced immediate wheelspin! :eek: With a not-overly harsh use of the clutch it could actually chirp the treads upshifting into top gear at over 50mph :cool:

PerfAdv

05-29-2006, 02:07 PM

hmm, Perf, did you MISS the whoel seires of eps of them stripping a lovely white XJS and ultimatelY CATAPULTING it off the aircraft carrier ?

Selective memory at play :)

Clarkson tilts at ALL the windmills he can find. His classic was the Morgans (IIRC) where he had a go at them all for being flat cloth cap wearing, bald with glasses :D
Selective memory? No, I just haven't watched the series but for the one season Discovery Channel showed it and then the odd links found here.

He is funny but sometimes his comments are a little crass. I know this so I just can't take anything he does too seriously. I didn't like the 911 getting trashed but now that I've been informed about the Jag and Rolls, I can see that it's just some episodes seem more pointed than others...:)

They did take the engine out before the drop, so apparently it was deemed to be of some value.;)

carbrochuretom

05-29-2006, 02:23 PM

Jeremy Clarkson destroys a lada (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3xoRQd0dLk&search=Jeremy%20Clarkson)
Jeremy Clarkson destroys a Perodua Kelisa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf3Rw8VW3aE&search=Jeremy%20Clarkson)
Jeremy Clarkson buries RAV4 in poo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvW1WcFjVyA&search=Jeremy%20Clarkson)
Jeremy Clarkson destroys a Nissan Sunny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTgV2Xgon6Q&search=Jeremy%20Clarkson)

Mr Clarky seems to master the skills of destroying cars...must be fun! :D i wanna go!

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 02:43 PM

no probs, Perf, I was forgetting that not everyone gets decent TV :D

and for those others STILL struggling with British humour and the anti-Brit comments lobbed earlier. Then realise THIS ....... British humour INCLUDES taking the piss of ourselves.
Coz we're man enough to take it :D
See http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=541632&postcount=1196

derekthetree

05-29-2006, 02:45 PM

i like it how the discussion about whether clarkson was right or wrong has now been consumed by a discussion about whether matra is right or not :)

i'm going with they both like to think they are right but sometime get shown up by the little man :D

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 02:45 PM

Actually got me thinking ... so does everyone here avoid stock car racing ?
Stockies are the ultimate destruction of once-viable metal in the interest of entertainment.
NOTHING beats a cold Friday night with a beer and a pie at the local stock racing watching the Minis F2s and "saloons" bashing some metal with the occasional demolition thrown in to warm the heart :D

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 02:52 PM

ruim20

05-29-2006, 03:22 PM

I'd like too see if some ppl opinions would remain the same if it was me destroing the 911...

Matra et Alpine

05-29-2006, 03:56 PM

I'd like too see if some ppl opinions would remain the same if it was me destroing the 911...
Depends on what condition and what you were doing to it.
I've watched quite a few 911s be "destroyed " on track and rally stages.

and frankly if you can afford to do it then nobody has very much right to any opinion. Of course we might decide you were an idiot for DOIGN it, but that doesnt' mean you shouldn't.

NOW ... if you were to say destroy a 959 then there would be a little more up-in-arms as there aren't many of those around.

But destroying a stock 911 is no worse than crashing a Ford Focus !!!

henk4

05-29-2006, 11:35 PM

IBrake4Rainbows

05-29-2006, 11:45 PM

I'm not sure if it's classed as a personal attack if it's against a whole kingdom, but it's damned close.

sometimes being brainless is a good thing - you need to know when to switch off.

henk4

05-29-2006, 11:49 PM

I'm not sure if it's classed as a personal attack if it's against a whole kingdom, but it's damned close.

sometimes being brainless is a good thing - you need to know when to switch off.

they may be able to switch it off, but at the same time forget where the "on" switch is positioned:)

IBrake4Rainbows

05-30-2006, 12:05 AM

Theres an On switch?

McReis

05-30-2006, 01:48 AM

Because the car in question was a 911 :rolleyes:

No. Maybe it was just because I haven't seen that thread. And since it was my comment that started fire to this...

carbrochuretom

05-30-2006, 02:04 AM

I'd like too see if some ppl opinions would remain the same if it was me destroing the 911...
Well if you destroyed it in a fun way then thats good.:D Destroy it in a race thats bad.:)

spi-ti-tout

05-30-2006, 02:11 AM

No. Maybe it was just because I haven't seen that thread. And since it was my comment that started fire to this...
No. It was actually NCrap, CSL and henk that started the objective comments. Nobody said much about the Corvette, but oh come 911 and it's outrage against an unholy car-adulterer. You can say nobody saw much of Clarkson's potential for destroying and a second car was just too much but as pointed out nobody cried over a Lada and some who cried would actually even enjoy seeing the death of "certain" NEW and useable cars, and plus there's the internet now where you can view things for free so it's crying wolf really.

You insulted Mr Lagonda and escalated your own issue for no use.

henk4

05-30-2006, 02:12 AM

Well if you destroyed it in a fun way then thats good.:D Destroy it in a race thats bad.:)

I would say the exact opposite....because the fun way for these cars is in a race...

henk4

05-30-2006, 02:13 AM

McReis

05-30-2006, 02:32 AM

No. It was actually NCrap, CSL and henk that started the objective comments. Nobody said much about the Corvette, but oh come 911 and it's outrage against an unholy car-adulterer. You can say nobody saw much of Clarkson's potential for destroying and a second car was just too much but as pointed out nobody cried over a Lada and some who cried would actually even enjoy seeing the death of "certain" NEW and useable cars, and plus there's the internet now where you can view things for free so it's crying wolf really.

You insulted Mr Lagonda and escalated your own issue for no use.

I have already answered to all of your arguments on previous posts, though directed to other persons.
I also have already said that I think destroying Ladas is as stupid as destroying Porsches, if they're running. I'm against destruction for fun.

If Mr. Lagonda felt insulted that's is problem. I made a random comment and I wasn't aiming for noone particularly. I meant to make people see my point of view. That's the point of having a conversation. Of course we can all act like if we were deaf or blind and ignore any arguments that aren't ours. It's becoming very trendy.

I'd like to defy you to make an accurate search through all my posts to find a single one in wich I insulted anyone. If you find 2 posts where I have clearly insulted anyone on purpose and without any previous insult to me, I promise to leave this forums for good.

carbrochuretom

05-30-2006, 03:16 AM

I would say the exact opposite....because the fun way for these cars is in a race...
Not the old 911 though I dont like that...if it was the new 911 then yes the opposite but its not:D

spi-ti-tout

05-30-2006, 03:37 AM

I have already answered to all of your arguments on previous posts, though directed to other persons.
You see that is your mistake :)

I made only one argumentative post earlier in this thread, besides the one addressed to you.

And quite frankly my message was: If you want to watch it, watch it, if you don't, then don't!

I also have already said that I think destroying Ladas is as stupid as destroying Porsches, if they're running. I'm against destruction for fun. My bad, I must've skipped that post.

If Mr. Lagonda felt insulted that's is problem. I made a random comment and I wasn't aiming for noone particularly.
At that time, Mr Lagonda and Bluey were the only ones who had responded positively to the video, and you quoted him saying people who enjoyed destruction must have problems. You might have wanted to make yourself clearer and you did not respond to his call.

I meant to make people see my point of view. That's the point of having a conversation. Of course we can all act like if we were deaf or blind and ignore any arguments that aren't ours. It's becoming very trendy.
There is a big difference between conversation and debate. If you want to debate then you must be prepared to bring facts alongside opinions. The issue escalated very quickly and carrying on means sparking a debate. Which is also why I don't like to debate, btw.

I'd like to defy you to make an accurate search through all my posts to find a single one in wich I insulted anyone. If you find 2 posts where I have clearly insulted anyone on purpose and without any previous insult to me, I promise to leave this forums for good.
I request you to please STOP being so dramatic.

I don't care about how many people you have insulted.
I already explained how you were not the first to start the debate and what I thought was an insult.
I'm not going to again, unless you wish to change my mind about the insult.

McReis

05-30-2006, 03:52 AM

You see that is your mistake :)

I made only one argumentative post earlier in this thread, besides the one addressed to you.

I'm sorry but didn't make my self very clear. What I meant is that the same arguments were made by other mebers than you and I had already replied to them.

I request you to please STOP being so dramatic.

I don't care about how many people you have insulted.
I already explained how you were not the first to start the debate and what I thought was an insult.
I'm not going to again, unless you wish to change my mind about the insult.

I'm not being dramatic. Not a bit. Because I'm sure you wouldn't find any insults. That was my point. I never insult anyone, and I sure didn't insult anyone but JC. Who I still think is a plain idiot who, sometimes, is fun.
If Lagonda had took it as an insult, he'd have probably come straight on me, wich he didn't.

I don't want to change anyone's mind here, because clearly, most of us seem to have their minds made before each debate or conversation.

One more thing: if you don't like debates, why did you enter this thread? ;)

nota

05-30-2006, 03:52 AM

I'm against destruction for fun.
Me too .. and not just motor cars. Seems about as much 'fun' as the so-called Killing for Sport, imho

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 04:51 AM

Me too .. and not just motor cars. Seems about as much 'fun' as the so-called Killing for Sport, imho
hate to ruin ALL your enjoyment but follow the argumetn and you stop ALL motor racing as it consumes a limited resource and destroys the environment.
All just for "fun" of the competitors and the spectators ( with the intermediate sponsors making oodles of cash out of it :D )
UCP shodl shut down too, usign all that diesel to travel Eureop jut to photograph cars for an elite group who get enjoymetn from motrs and motorsport.
The problem with grabbing high ground is it can sink below the water level too :D

nota

05-30-2006, 05:06 AM

hate to ruin ALL your enjoyment but follow the argumetn and you stop ALL motor racing as it consumes a limited resource and destroys the environment.
All just for "fun" of the competitors and the spectators ( with the intermediate sponsors making oodles of cash out of it :D )
UCP shodl shut down too, usign all that diesel to travel Eureop jut to photograph cars for an elite group who get enjoymetn from motrs and motorsport.
The problem with grabbing high ground is it can sink below the water level too :D
I haven't seen the JC vids

But where is the obligation to 'follow the argument' right into the monkhouse? Sorry but I don't see it. Simply put, I have never seen the sense in wanton destruction (of any sort) and especially if this form of 'entertainment' is basically a self-serving ego projection, or designed to appeal to base denominators

My highly evolved sense of refinement & sophistication is a burden I face daily :o

(Cadillac in the '30s had a similar impost)

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 05:22 AM

Nicely avoided the waste of resource of ALL motorsports, nota :D

All the tree-huggers grab the same lofty "highly evolved sense of refinement & sophistication " BS and want you to give up cars !!!

The beauty fo teh human race is we DO all find different things enjoyable.
Long me it last ... or we'd NEVER have had Monty Python ( in fact your post above was probalby written by Mary Whitehouse about Monty Python in the 70s :D )

magracer

05-30-2006, 07:37 AM

At the end of the day anyone and everyone is entitled to do what ever they want with their money. If it was taxpayer money, Top Gear could be in trouble, but it isn't so the one's to be concerned should be the shareholders which will get less dividends. Someone metioned he was destroying the car because he hated it, and I didn't really see that. He actually went a long way to show how well built it was.

People are irreplaceable, things are, in some way or another. Being passionate doesn't mean that we should mourn car destruction; we all know every day lots of cars get totalled or crushed right? Some of them will have to be exotics or once were exotics. MetA is right in pointing out that putting money in cars with expensive parts and labour is just economic non-sense. And that's with out metioning the Max Power cars which get hundreds of thousands thrown in them. They will never see the money again, ever.

Yes, a Lada would be very valuable for a russian familiy, but the equivalent money would be much more valuable for a whole town of starving people in Africa. So, I propose every time you mourn the loss of an exotic you donate to the needy. ;)

henk4

05-30-2006, 07:46 AM

Someone metioned he was destroying the car because he hated it, and I didn't really see that.

that was me, just listen again to how he describes the dash ("if I would swallow all buttons and dials and sneeze them over the dash, they would be ergonomically better located") and the proxomity of the front window.

His description of the Lada is plain stupid.

henk4

05-30-2006, 07:48 AM

So, I propose every time you mourn the loss of an exotic you donate to the needy. ;)

there are some important words missing in this line such as "deliberate" , "without purpose" "to please the ego" etc....:)

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 07:50 AM

The Lada reminds me of anther silly example.....

Remember when Lotus invested £100,000 on a Lada on behalf of Top Gear ?

The car was utlimately sold by the owner later for £5,000 on eBay.

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 07:52 AM

there are some important words missing in this line such as "deliberate" , "without purpose" "to please the ego" etc....:)
yeah and it was an unviable 911 .. NOT an "exotic" or very valuable.

Or does the badge REALLY mean everything to some ??? :D

McReis

05-30-2006, 07:59 AM

yeah and it was an unviable 911 .. NOT an "exotic" or very valuable.

Or does the badge REALLY mean everything to some ??? :D
I have to admit I'm impressed by your stamina. :rolleyes:

henk4

05-30-2006, 08:00 AM

The Lada reminds me of anther silly example.....

Remember when Lotus invested £100,000 on a Lada on behalf of Top Gear ?

The car was utlimately sold by the owner later for £5,000 on eBay.

Of course it is out of the question to suggest that only Brits could make such a smart investment:D

henk4

05-30-2006, 08:02 AM

yeah and it was an unviable 911 .. NOT an "exotic" or very valuable.

Or does the badge REALLY mean everything to some ??? :D

Has it by now not sunk in with you that some people simply don't like plain destructive acts just for the fun of it:mad: :mad:

McReis

05-30-2006, 08:02 AM

Of course it is out of the question to suggest that only Brits could make such a smart investment:D

One day you'll get the point. Just like you did with Monty Python. :D

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 08:11 AM

Has it by now not sunk in with you that some people simply don't like plain destructive acts just for the fun of it:mad: :mad:
Just pointing out the opposite is ALSO true which you keep repeating adn regurgitating.

ooh, look THAT was what I was sayign before :D
TRIED to use examples of otehr activities to show that variatino is what makes "etnertainment" possible.

So you DONT like the 911 getting smashed and some do.
WHY should they NOT do it ?
You seem to keep suggesting that it shoudln't be allwoed or in some way they are "inferior" for those choices.

List your hobbies, I'm getting most folks will rip the majority of them apart.
That's the variety of life and really shodul be embraced rather than foolishly lampooned -- at least JCs excuse for acting like that is he gets paid to do it :D

henk4

05-30-2006, 08:50 AM

Just pointing out the opposite is ALSO true which you keep repeating adn regurgitating.

ooh, look THAT was what I was sayign before :D
TRIED to use examples of otehr activities to show that variatino is what makes "etnertainment" possible.

So you DONT like the 911 getting smashed and some do.
WHY should they NOT do it ?
You seem to keep suggesting that it shoudln't be allwoed or in some way they are "inferior" for those choices.

List your hobbies, I'm getting most folks will rip the majority of them apart.
That's the variety of life and really shodul be embraced rather than foolishly lampooned -- at least JCs excuse for acting like that is he gets paid to do it :D

I was afraid you would come with these type of Socratic reasoning. When I say that there are things that I don't like, do I need to explain why? Do I have to listen to other people who apparently seem to like it? Do I need to be convinced to like it? No not, at all, and if you start asking about hobbies, we can continue ad infinitum. Human life as we now know it, is destructive in itself.

You are asking the question about why should they NOT do it. This opens the door to all sorts of acts. I don't like people to kill others etc. Are you going to reply: Why should they NOT do it? Life has a sliding scale of values, and apparently we are on different parts of the slope.

magracer

05-30-2006, 09:11 AM

that was me, just listen again to how he describes the dash ("if I would swallow all buttons and dials and sneeze them over the dash, they would be ergonomically better located") and the proxomity of the front window.

.. and then he praised it for being well built. He has said worse things of modern cars. The recent feature on the Noble comes to mind. Some years ago JC said their car was a pile of crap, and sent them to the designer board again. They came back with an excellent product and they praised it; if I remember well the founder said something along the lines of "the next day the phone wouldn't stop ringing and since then we haven't stopped ". Nothing wrong with being true to what you think IMHO...

His description of the Lada is plain stupid.

Whose description of the Lada? mine?

Anyway, so MetA gets creamed for calling wouter "noob" but you go along calling people stupid and that's ok? Definite no, no, for me... Yes, it has been said before that this forum is clearly not a democracy as you guys run it, but the last week or so you guys have been a little over critical IMO... (hope it's PMS and you get over the phase quickly) :D

McReis

05-30-2006, 09:14 AM

Whose description of the Lada? mine?

Anyway, so MetA gets creamed for calling wouter "noob" but you go along calling people stupid and that's ok? Definite no, no, for me... Yes, it has been said before that this forum is clearly not a democracy as you guys run it, but the last week or so you guys have been a little over critical IMO... (hope it's PMS and you get over the phase quickly) :D

Here's an example of how to lose a great chance of keeping quiet.
Henk4 was talking about J.Clarkson's words about the Lada.
Do you wish to delete your post now, or just say you're sorry for being to jumpy?

magracer

05-30-2006, 09:18 AM

Here's an example of how to lose a great chance of keeping quiet.
Henk4 was talking about J.Clarkson's words about the Lada.
Do you wish to delete your post now, or just say you're sorry for being to jumpy?

Didn't quite get his remark to be honest and that's why I asked first. When did we discuss JC words about the Lada?

Henk4, i'm sorry if that wasn't aimed at me...

henk4

05-30-2006, 09:29 AM

Didn't quite get his remark to be honest and that's why I asked first. When did we discuss JC words about the Lada?

Henk4, i'm sorry if that wasn't aimed at me...

OK, I talked about his words on the Lada in post #60....

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 09:41 AM

I was afraid you would come with these type of Socratic reasoning. When I say that there are things that I don't like, do I need to explain why? Do I have to listen to other people who apparently seem to like it? Do I need to be convinced to like it? No not, at all, and if you start asking about hobbies, we can continue ad infinitum. Human life as we now know it, is destructive in itself.

You are asking the question about why should they NOT do it. This opens the door to all sorts of acts. I don't like people to kill others etc. Are you going to reply: Why should they NOT do it? Life has a sliding scale of values, and apparently we are on different parts of the slope.
You knwo Socratic reasonin gand dont' apply it :D
See how you AGAIN repeated your assertion that in some way YOUR view is "superior" ?

Al lthat I've been doing rationally is pointing out how some items have been taken irrationally :D

PerfAdv

05-30-2006, 09:58 AM

I can see MetA's point about freedom of expression and basically that's the only reason I don't find JC completely senseless. JC's life revolves around cars, he writes about them and tests them for adoring fans and although he may not have an eloquent manner he still has some important thoughts.

The enjoyment from wanton destruction is another story. Seems that's a malady of modern society in general. If people are so engrossed in senseless carnage they lose the ability question which violence is acceptable and which isn't.

Since he destroys cars of all Marques, it isn't as bad if he destroyed cars along political lines from WWII...His comment about, "They couldn't beat us, they couldn't even beat the Croatians but they sure can make a car..." Then he proceeds to further dismantle the car. Then I was informed that he did the same to a Jag and a Rolls. So it seems just whatever offensive thought that comes to mind he says and then maybe pays for it later. Remember his visit to post-Katrina Louisiana?

henk4

05-30-2006, 10:10 AM

Y
See how you AGAIN repeated your assertion that in some way YOUR view is "superior" ?

can you please point out exactly where it is to be found in my posts that I consider my views "superior"?

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 11:06 AM

can you please point out exactly where it is to be found in my posts that I consider my views "superior"?
Come ON Pieter.

DO you REALLY need me to point each of them out ?

Or are you like Emperor Nero in your "superiority" :D

henk4

05-30-2006, 11:10 AM

Come ON Pieter.

DO you REALLY need me to point each of them out ?

Or are you like Emperor Nero in your "superiority" :D

apparently you are never tired of pointing out things in these sort of posts, so don't quit now.

Rockefella

05-30-2006, 11:17 AM

Whoa! I'm off of UCP for a few days and I miss this... lemme make some popcorn gentlemen.

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 11:45 AM

The enjoyment from wanton destruction is another story. Seems that's a malady of modern society in general. If people are so engrossed in senseless carnage they lose the ability question which violence is acceptable and which isn't.
and yet this is NOT a "modern society" thing.

Since man has been able to cause destruction we've enjoyed watching it.

Thousands went to see the launch of Brunels Great Eastern expecting it to sink :D

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 11:46 AM

apparently you are never tired of pointing out things in these sort of posts, so don't quit now.
So sadly I was right >

Ok, Im not fueling the "image" you portray.

Tell you what I'll say nothing more about it, the evidence is there.

Rockefella

05-30-2006, 11:47 AM

and yet this is NOT a "modern society" thing.

Since man has been able to cause destruction we've enjoyed watching it.
Tell that to the people of Hiroshima. Let's throw in NYC and D.C. on Sept. 11, and even the Hindenburg airship while we're at it. ;)

henk4

05-30-2006, 11:49 AM

Tell that to the people of Hiroshima. Let's throw in NYC and D.C. on Sept. 11, and even the Hindenburg airship while we're at it. ;)

didn't you see the evidence?

Matra et Alpine

05-30-2006, 11:53 AM

Tell that to the people of Hiroshima. Let's throw in NYC and D.C. on Sept. 11, and even the Hindenburg airship while we're at it. ;)
OK, good point< Rocke.

I wasn't includign MURDER and DEATH in the breadth of "destruction" I was including.

But lets just consider NASCAR for a moment .... how many people watching are hoping for an incident ? Even if sadly it risks involving a death ???

Rockefella

05-30-2006, 12:04 PM

OK, good point< Rocke.

I wasn't includign MURDER and DEATH in the breadth of "destruction" I was including.

But lets just consider NASCAR for a moment .... how many people watching are hoping for an incident ? Even if sadly it risks involving a death ???
Many.

henk4

05-30-2006, 12:20 PM

So sadly I was right >

Ok, Im not fueling the "image" you portray.

Tell you what I'll say nothing more about it, the evidence is there.

a surprising retreat for someone with allegedly superior debating skills:)

VtecMini

05-30-2006, 12:36 PM

Right or wrongness aside, I think Matra at least deserves some props for arguing until 8am in the morning. Rock on, Mr endurance arguing king. :)

DesmoRob

05-30-2006, 05:41 PM

ROFL!

i laughed when the headlight fell out.

Seriously, if you have the money. Why not? I'd take a 200, NSX, porsche, Ferrari even and smash derby it if i didnt have t o pay for it :D

you are a sick person.

DesmoRob

05-30-2006, 06:26 PM

csl177

05-30-2006, 06:46 PM

Well. It's doubtful this thread will be done yet, but I have to respond once more, if only because the direction the discussion went was so disturbing.

For those of us that bailed early since it was turning into a bad episode of "Argument Clinic", all one can suggest is that the lowest common denominator has always been utilized by anyone ready to make a buck as a means of taking it from the willing masses. Just because it is successful commerce doesn't make it good or right. My (and others) antipathy for this "entertainment" isn't because it was a Porsche. It was the idea of destruction to entertain, something that many others tried (unsuccesfully) to get other posters to respond to, rationally and objectively.

Nonetheless... this is still as true as ever: Culture devolves as we allow it.

If the Romans had TV in the time of the Circus Maximus, you can bet
the liquor, tobacco, and gaming industry would have been underwriters. :o

And it would have been a commercial hit. Our time is no different. :(

Matra et Alpine

05-31-2006, 01:07 AM

Clarkson goes and destroys a perfect example of a 911, just because he can. Meanwhile, other people out there spend years trying to reach their goal of attaining a car like that. This is just not right IMO. Sure, seeing destruction can be fun, but it just really hurts to watch it done to a 911. I used to find him funny and entertaining, but now he's crossed the line.
COME ON Rob.

Even to the most amateurish of car mechanics that 911 was a million miles away from a "perfect example" !!!

It's that kind of emotional BS that some are clinging too.

NOBODY wants to "attain ownership" of a car that costs 5-10 times more to restore than it costs to buy a decent example.

That is living in cloud-cukoo land and sadly it seems to be getting a crowded neighbourhood :D

It ALSO is very dangerous to people wallets to think that every 911 is worth restoring. New entrants to the classic car ownership make that mistake ALL the time, investing TENS of thousands of pounds/dollars/euros to buy and EVEN MORE to restore their "dream car". To fidn they've got somethgin that they coudl have bought for a fraction and given the rest fo their money to teh family to enjoy otehr pastimes with. Those "foosl easily parted with their money" are closely followed by kti car owners who as said already will inevst lots fo money thinking it's a "good investment" to be sadly disappointed once they find the reality of prices :D

Check out ANY onlien car trading site. I posted teh UK AutoTrader one adn eBay showing how cheaply you coudl buy a 911 to show they're NOT rare.

How much does an engine overhaul cost on a 911 ?
Gearbox ?
Diff ?
How much for a driveshafts ?
Disc rotors ?
Suspension bushes ?
Suspension arms ?
Brake cylinders - master and slaves ?
Clutch cylinders - master and slave ?
Replacment chassis legs ? Panels ?
Loom ?
Interior repairs -- torn seat ? worn seat springs ? carpet ? seat belts ?

Even on something NOT withhte Porsche logo on it those above can add up to 15 to 20 thousand pounds for something like an ESCORT, never mind teh Porsche uplift.

If you REALY want to think that it's affordable then before you follow your nose on that in teh future, jstu price out some fo the above list and look at the time in teh workshop manual to do them. At least tehn if you decide to buy and restore a clunker Porsche you'll know up front how much it will cost.

Have a look around owners clubs and see how many "part completerd" restorations and kit cars thre are. Those are people who didnt' check prices or times and ran out of money/time/interest before completing it. Sadly those caught in that trap can be a good srouce for the savvy buyer :D

( and that list ( and THAT is only part of it ) and intelligent analysis is what seperates the "noob" classic/kit car owner and the experienced :) )

Matra et Alpine

05-31-2006, 01:11 AM

If the Romans had TV in the time of the Circus Maximus, you can bet
the liquor, tobacco, and gaming industry would have been underwriters. :o

And it would have been a commercial hit. Our time is no different. :(
not really...........

It was the porn industry back in Roman times as well :D :D :D

( Just the RC church destroyed and "hid" most of the images )

and interesting that in citing Roman times did you intentionally take us to the ultimate in "crash watching" with chariot races, fighting to the death, mass executions and feeding people to lions :) ?

nota

05-31-2006, 05:11 AM

Nicely avoided the waste of resource of ALL motorsports, nota :D
I didn't avoid it .. I ignored it

Like I said previous, I haven't seen the vids. Within that proviso, I've read that the 911 engine was out, so I presume the car is a hapless 'static display' that gets trashed?

And that's why I chose to ignore your tenuous (at best) attempt to equate a 911 that accidentally gets totalled during a motor race while providing dynamic enjoyment to the driver etc .. to a non-goer that 'for the viewers pleasure' is blown up or whatever, for shits & giggles

Wot fun eh chaps? :rolleyes:

No I cannot see the paralel you try to conjure - at all

All the tree-huggers grab the same lofty "highly evolved sense of refinement & sophistication " BS and want you to give up cars !!!
No offence taken at being labelled a tree hugger, quite the opposite. :) Gaia is my 'god' of choice, a more logical god than either JC imho

And allow me to return the lecture because as it stands on a personal level I have indisputably acted more environmentally than thou (I've no kinder, so no ongoing enviro impost :p). So BS back at ya, and I want you to stand on the street corner for the next three weeks handing out condoms !!!

To spell it out, by my prudent non-reproductive actions my enviro-credit bank is far more replete than a certain Scot, who has not only created his own 'future eaters' but to cap it off seems determined to defend JC's public glorification/wHoreship of destruction for its own inane sake. By comparison I could drive a slurpy V8 for the rest of my remaining years, yet because I have no kids, I bequeath an infinitely smaller 'enviro footprint' onto mother earth than .. ahem guess who?

The beauty fo teh human race is we DO all find different things enjoyable.
Long me it last ... or we'd NEVER have had Monty Python ( in fact your post above was probalby written by Mary Whitehouse about Monty Python in the 70s :D )
Oh brother :rolleyes: so according to you I'm now a religio-puritan conservative .. because I've voiced my dis-admiration for purile violence? How long a bow are you trying to draw here? And if Monty Python = JC trashboy, well lets just say that British humour ain't what it used to be

Like I said, some of us are more evolved .. ;)

Matra et Alpine

05-31-2006, 05:35 AM

No, Nota, youre response were EXACTLY what I was sugggesting.

EVERYONE has SOMEONE who belives themselves to be "more evolved".

I was only usign the examples to point out the other positions alogn that path and that trygin to FORCE someoen to adhere to a "higher standard2 makes it euqally valid to be the target of somenoenmakeing that demand on them>

hence my tree-huggers comment.

So whilst we are debating the worht of a 911 destruction otehrs are equally saygin ALL crs shodul be destroyed to save teh environment.

Guess I REALLY DO need to write more and MORE to explain in more detail :( dont' have the time mate :D )

and the poitn about MP was it too attracted negative comments and yet now everyeon thinks it the best thing since slice-bread ( it is but only in places ).
So should ALL of MP be discounted because SOME objected to SOME parts of it ? Jsut trygin to get eyes open to the big picture and the hypocrisy of most of hte landscape :D

so ... comgin back to the bit you ignored .... shoudl all motorsport be immediately illegal as it wastes resources only in teh name of entertainment ????????

nota

05-31-2006, 06:22 AM

NGuess I REALLY DO need to write more and MORE to explain in more detail :( dont' have the time mate :D )
I myself find it difficult to carry out 'spontaneously predictive' conversations over the net :)

so ... comgin back to the bit you ignored .... shoudl all motorsport be immediately illegal as it wastes resources only in teh name of entertainment ????????
Well motorsport is not mere entertainment is it? For example before I first drove a motor car I was able to learn a shipload about car control theory just through watching and closely observing motorsport, merely through the TV. So a safety/educational benefit for one (to both participants and onlookers) along with the many techno advances that have evolved through motorsport

So as far as enviro goes, you have to weigh positive/negative. And in the larger scheme of (enviro) negatives that exist, m-sport is very small beer indeed when compared to my goodness how many other forms of wastrel consumption that occur, at infinately greater magnitude

For me, first cabs off the rank would be the big boys like energy, industry, power generation, the fecking arms industry etc etc .. with motorsport defendably waaay down the to-do list. From a bannage pov, if I had my druthers I'd rather see larger targets like cigarettes or children's junk food (or expoitative deforestation or overfishing for pet food, or GWB-esq entities) and a hundred other destructors banned, in decreasing negativity, long before teensy motorsport appeared in my sights

So, Motorsport is as much a positive as a neg, which is more than I might credit to Clarkson's antics

Matra et Alpine

05-31-2006, 07:08 AM

I myself find it difficult to carry out 'spontaneously predictive' conversations over the net :)
Come on nota, you KNWO the question was asked DIRECTLY.

Nothing "predictive " was requried jsut a little less wrigglign :D

Well motorsport is not mere entertainment is it?
You serious ??

For example before I first drove a motor car I was able to learn a shipload about car control theory just through watching and closely observing motorsport, merely through the TV.
You learned all you actually needed to use a car as transport frmo A to B in yrou driving lessons and confirmed by passing yoru compulsory driving test.
The rest is self indulgence :D

So a safety/educational benefit for one (to both participants and onlookers) along with the many techno advances that have evolved through motorsport
BS.THe same excuse put up for the NASA programs.
he spend BILLIOSN here and we get spin-offs worht millions.
Read on how the Japanese are doign their space program ..... identify WHAT you need and spedn milliosn to be the world leaders in those. THEN do a space program.
Car innovation does not NEED motorsport, though it's a very public spur for it.
It's like the internt and porn.
We get a better internet because porn funds and wants it but it didn;t NEED it to deliver the technology :D

So as far as enviro goes, you have to weigh positive/negative. And in the larger scheme of (enviro) negatives that exist, m-sport is very small beer indeed when compared to my goodness how many other forms of wastrel consumption that occur, at infinately greater magnitude
and you confirm teh WHOLE poitn first raised.
In teh whoel scheme of things one rusty 911 with a beat up engine and tranny is "small beer". Thansk ... see you CAN do that "predictive" thingy :D

For me, first cabs off the rank would be the big boys like energy, industry, power generation, the fecking arms industry etc etc .. with motorsport defendably waaay down the to-do list. From a bannage pov, if I had my druthers I'd rather see larger targets like cigarettes or children's junk food (or expoitative deforestation or overfishing for pet food, or GWB-esq entities) and a hundred other destructors banned, in decreasing negativity, long before teensy motorsport appeared in my sights
And agreeing again that a 911 is small frie and yet beign condemned :)
Anyway, justifying stealing a chocolate bar from a corner store because someone stole millions of dollars from Brinks-Mat doesnt' stack up :D
It'#s selfish consumption.

So, Motorsport is as much a positive as a neg, which is more than I might credit to Clarkson's antics
Only cos you refuse to be honest abtou the truth about motorsport.
It's an opiate for the masses (NASCAR) and a playground for the rich and hope-to-be-famous (F1, Le Mans, etc)
In the middle is the Clubman motorsport which is there for pure ego, personal and selfish enjoyment.

Selfish and happy to my part in motorsport coz I'm important to me :D
But I dont' try to wrap it up in anything other than for my enjoymetn and advancement !!!!

DesmoRob

05-31-2006, 07:20 AM

COME ON Rob.

Even to the most amateurish of car mechanics that 911 was a million miles away from a "perfect example" !!!

Ok so maaaybe it wasn't perfect, but its decent, and its a Porsche. You probably see nice cars all the time in Scotland, but here where I live, I'll be lucky to see a bmw or a mercedes, so I have a much higher appreciation for Porsches. I know it sounds pathetic:o .

Matra et Alpine

05-31-2006, 07:29 AM

Ok so maaaybe it wasn't perfect, but its decent, and its a Porsche. You probably see nice cars all the time in Scotland, but here where I live, I'll be lucky to see a bmw or a mercedes, so I have a much higher appreciation for Porsches. I know it sounds pathetic:o .
Not really, but does explain it and I think highlights what I was saying about hoping OTHERS will spend money to keep things because they have a different value for where you live.

It's like asking a Scotsman to pay for water.
Hurts me every time I'm in the US and to get decent drinkign water have to buy it in big bottles :D
Good water is abundant for us and "free".
I'm sure anyone watching from South England watching us wash our cars, water our gardens pisses them off too. But it won't stop me using water :) and shouldn't should it :D

Sauc3

05-31-2006, 08:35 AM

Is this still going on about the Porsche discussion? I haven't quite followed the thread and I'm not planning to read through the whole thing. If any of my points have already been covered, my apologies. The last few posts seem to gravitate towards the merits of motorsports, and strangly water... I'm just gonna ignore those. :p

First of all, I'd like to attract your attention to the following.
http://motors.search.ebay.com/porsche-911_Cars-Trucks_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypag eZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfrtsZ0QQfsooZ1QQf sopZ9QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsacatZ6001QQsbrsrtZl
This is an ebay link, (you know, the big online auction thingio which sells almost everything) with a list of 911s for sale. For ease of use, I arranged it in the manner so oldest are shown first. Here we see a good variety of these cars, in all states and shapes, with all different price tags. This is just this week, and I'm sure that countless more of these cars have passed through this website, not to mention private magazine adverts and classics websites, amongst other. Alright, so now we've established that this isn't the most exotic of cars, with quite a lot of examples floating around.
Next, you might notice that the most expensive example that's being bid on is roughly $20,000, but, they can most certainly vary in price. I wouldn't expect the example shown in the video to manage more than a $7000 price tag. If that. These two prices taken into comparison, a good example should be within reach for about $12,000 (all in US currency). This is not a MASSIVE amount of money, and comparable to a normal econobox or daily driver. These two facts combined now mean that there's a lot of examples, both left and for sale, and they're not unnatainable for the average person.

Now, I think the points already been made about many of these cars having been sent to the junkyard? To continue on from that, how many of these do you think there are in a delapitated condition, either sitting in someone's driveway half covered by an old tarpauling with a season's worth of leaves on it being held down by 3 bricks and housing a raccoon family? Or even driving around being used as daily drivers? Tons! This would mean that, similar to the example that Jeremy destroyed, there's a very large number of these being destroyed day by day, bit by bit. Instead of whinging about a car being destroyed on a TV show which harmed noone in one bit, start worrying about all the cars that are being destroyed day in and day out, because they're being over-used without the proper treatment or sitting somewhere without any care or attention being spent on them.
"For just 2 dollars a day, YOU can sponsor a Porsche in NEED. Here's Fred, he's a 1967 Porsche 911S coupe. He sits on the street all night, and has to make the trip all the way to work and back every day without a single drop of care. Donate now and YOU can change an attainable sportscar's life, you can make a difference."

Final point in this rant, it's nothing more than a possible material posession. It's as much yours or mine as a piece of paper (Which, by the way, something living had to die for in order to be made. Where's the massive outcries about that?) is, and once burnt to a crisp not more more of one remains than the other. Perhaps a slightly larger pile of ashes. Basically, WHO CARES? It's an item, it met it's end. At least it didn't die an "anonymous death" sitting in the back of some farmer's yard covered by 20 square metres of rust and 20 years of overgrowing grass.

One man's entertainment is another's nightmare. We have to live with both.
One man's treasure is another's trash. And the other way around. Learn to live with it.

nota

05-31-2006, 09:47 AM

Come on nota, you KNWO the question was asked DIRECTLY.
The question was barely comprehensible but I managed to decipher it!

Nothing "predictive " was requried jsut a little less wrigglign :D
merely TRYING to sympathise with you about the time impost, not 'wrigglign' at all

You serious ??
Yes. Where else do you recommend that people practice their skid-control in a safe environment, if not on the track .. the local highway?

You learned all you actually needed to use a car as transport frmo A to B in yrou driving lessons and confirmed by passing yoru compulsory driving test.
The rest is self indulgence :D
Pardon me but you clearly don't know jack about how I learned, or what my motoring needs are. Its not self indulgent to master advanced car control for safety, especially on the crap roads I battle with here. I was self-taught btw, no lessons

BS.THe same excuse put up for the NASA programs.
he spend BILLIOSN here and we get spin-offs worht millions.
Enjoy your teflon frypan? I did, along with the Tang orange-concentrate in my larder. Trillions of $$ of spin-offs, not millions

Read on how the Japanese are doign their space program ..... identify WHAT you need and spedn milliosn to be the world leaders in those. THEN do a space program.
Don't have to, its been on the news here for years. Scramjets invented here, proto'd here, tested here, refined here, so much coverage.

What the hell does controlling opposite-lock slides on a racetrack (or JC televised sado-wank sessions for morons) have to do with the jap space program for gods sake???

Car innovation does not NEED motorsport, though it's a very public spur for it.
Can you think of a better forum for testing automotive innovations?

It's like the internt and porn.
We get a better internet because porn funds and wants it but it didn;t NEED it to deliver the technology :D
According to you I'm suddenly Mary Whitehouse .. so no comment :p except that all this hi-tech porn must have unhinged your mind - take a pill mate

and you confirm teh WHOLE poitn first raised.
In teh whoel scheme of things one rusty 911 with a beat up engine and tranny is "small beer". Thansk ... see you CAN do that "predictive" thingy :D

And agreeing again that a 911 is small frie and yet beign condemned :)
The type of motorsport >I< do enjoy watching is good clean racing. Same while watching the TV, not like unevolved knuckledraggers who evidently drool over a toffy upper class Brit-twit who descends to smashing up dunger Porsches .. must be a UK thing, as most of JC's defenders on here are a virtual en-mass el-pommo bloc I've noticed

Anyway, justifying stealing a chocolate bar from a corner store because someone stole millions of dollars from Brinks-Mat doesnt' stack up :D
It'#s selfish consumption.
Getting to feel like the selfish consumption around here is you expecting me to keep replying to your varigated gibberish

.. getting .. so tired .. losing interest .. must preserve .. sanity .. avoid .. argueboy .. mercy .. hepl .. oops i ment to tpye .. help ..

Only cos you refuse to be honest abtou the truth about motorsport.
It's an opiate for the masses (NASCAR) and a playground for the rich and hope-to-be-famous (F1, Le Mans, etc)
In the middle is the Clubman motorsport which is there for pure ego, personal and selfish enjoyment.

Selfish and happy to my part in motorsport coz I'm important to me :D
But I dont' try to wrap it up in anything other than for my enjoymetn and advancement !!!!
yeah mate i'm in awe & permit me pls to admire from a (long) distance and like I said the pills in the cupboard but whateva ya reckon :rolleyes:

Matra et Alpine

05-31-2006, 02:34 PM

Yes. Where else do you recommend that people practice their skid-control in a safe environment, if not on the track .. the local highway?
Well besides the cheapest -- the local car park at 1am when it's empty.
( I learned my rally snow driving in the Mini in my fathers works car park on Sunday evenings
BUT are you saying part of your instruction does NOT include how to hadnel skids ?
it does in the UK, so maybe it's cultural thing.
Personally I think compulsory skid pans shoudl be included and take friends and daughters to trackdays to teach 'em.
BUT we were discussing MOTORSPORT.
What a professional driver does in a skid is WAY differen tot what Joe Bloggs should be doing. On the road a skid should ALWAYS lead to a gentle throttling off and coming to a halt ... NOT as a racer would do.
It was the contentino that you "learn" from motorsport I disagree over !
Motorsport teaches how to do more motorsport :D

Pardon me but you clearly don't know jack about how I learned, or what my motoring needs are. Its not self indulgent to master advanced car control for safety, especially on the crap roads I battle with here. I was self-taught btw, no lessons
I meant it in the collective "you" :D
Are you saygin your motoring lessons and compulsory testign do NOT include how to react to skids and emergencies ?

Enjoy your teflon frypan? I did, along with the Tang orange-concentrate in my larder. Trillions of $$ of spin-offs, not millions[/quote}
The BS you believed from NASA.
Best to suggest you learn how the Japanese are (were, the yen collaps eprobably nixed some of it!) doing it .... FIRST id the key technologies necessary .. THEN develop ONLY THOSE and still no going to space ... once the world source for these THEN go to space. They had identified 23 key items.
NASA "delivered" by chance ... everyone forgets all the totally useless stuff that wasted lots of money :D
This was standard message in US management circles 10-15 years ago with gov funded researchers advising NOT to go for big itme snad hopign to spin off cash :D They took the advice. Go look at "supercomputers" now .... 95% of them are off the shelf components that were DESIGNED FIRST. 20 years ago CRAY were doing unique EVERYTHIGN to build a supercomputer :D The "new" way.

[quote]What the hell does controlling opposite-lock slides on a racetrack (or JC televised sado-wank sessions for morons) have to do with the jap space program for gods sake???
TRYING to explain things.
If you don't want explanations don't ask questions.
I'm getting pissed off at every approach now is question question .. but get a long answer that needs thought and consideration and it's crying in teh milk BS :(
GO FOLLOW THE TRAIN of the comments.
If you're incapable of followign them then please let me know in future.
For you I'll keep my answers VERY short and simple.

Can you think of a better forum for testing automotive innovations?
Name me ONE innovation that motorsport has brought to yoru "family car" ?
It's not lean burn or low emissions or direct injection or diesel or ... do we NEED to go on ?
yeah fine, The Koenigsegg has a composite tub --- wooo-hooo, the amn in teh street doenst' NEED or want it.
Aluminium alloys are fine -- oh and BTW car racing alloys are derived from aeroplane construction methods.
And so are aero-dynamics !!

According to you I'm suddenly Mary Whitehouse .. so no comment :p except that all this hi-tech porn must have unhinged your mind - take a pill mate
Tryign to explain POV that seemed to NOT have been understood.
See question above re future interaction.

The type of motorsport >I< do enjoy watching is good clean racing. Same while watching the TV, not like unevolved knuckledraggers who evidently drool over a toffy upper class Brit-twit who descends to smashing up dunger Porsches .. must be a UK thing, as most of JC's defenders on here are a virtual en-mass el-pommo bloc I've noticed
so "unevolved" :(
Actually you are showign the lowest of mans nasty side -- the inability to understand and accept alternative ways of living !!!
Did you EVER consider it's because it is BRITISH sense of humour.
if you don't liek it DONT WATCH THE PROGRAM AND DONT READ?RESPOND TO COMMENTS ABOUT IT.

Getting to feel like the selfish consumption around here is you expecting me to keep replying to your varigated gibberish

.. getting .. so tired .. losing interest .. must preserve .. sanity .. avoid .. argueboy .. mercy .. hepl .. oops i ment to tpye .. help ..

yeah mate i'm in awe & permit me pls to admire from a (long) distance and like I said the pills in the cupboard but whateva ya reckon :rolleyes:
Yeah so am I nota.
I'll avoid you, you avoid me.
TRIED to be "grown up" and give explanations.
So I'll copycat and act the kid and hope you neeed an answer and I'm the only one on the forum able to give it :D

KNORR

05-31-2006, 02:39 PM

What does it say about his attitude toward me? Assuming that I'd be amused by a vandalism spree on one of the world's great cars was a miscalculation. What sort of pathetic tool would even point a camera at that abortion?
I'd be impressed if he fixed the car though!
KNORR

Vaigra

05-31-2006, 02:42 PM

The_Canuck

05-31-2006, 02:55 PM

haha I love how Sauc3's post just got completely ignored. The boy took time over that too, you mean people :p
but its boooooooooring;) :D

PerfAdv

05-31-2006, 07:08 PM

haha I love how Sauc3's post just got completely ignored. The boy took time over that too, you mean people :p

BTW if you don't want to read his post, I'll summarise what he said: Shut up and quit arguing :D
And it had a bit of everything in it too. :D

Here's comedy:

"For just 2 dollars a day, YOU can sponsor a Porsche in NEED. Here's Fred, he's a 1967 Porsche 911S coupe. He sits on the street all night, and has to make the trip all the way to work and back every day without a single drop of care. Donate now and YOU can change an attainable sportscar's life, you can make a difference."

2ndclasscitizen

05-31-2006, 09:07 PM

I'd like to add something here, don't know if it's been mentioned already as I haven't read the whole thread.

Mythbusters have trashed to classic cars that people would think of exactly the same. An immaculate C4 Corvette that they put 2 dead pigs in for several months, they ended up having to sell the car for parts and it still stunk even after being stripped. And they completely and utterly destroyed a Fiat X1/9, by rear ending it with a semi, then all but squashing it between two semis in a head on. Now I imagine plenty of Corvette owners hated them doing that, and I'll take a guess that a few may have written in complaining. But did anyone here complain? I'm gonna say no. The X1/9? I love those things, I reckon you could build an awesome track/hillclimb car out of one, and you hardly ever see them on the road down under. But I laughed my arse off both times. I love both those cars, and would love to own one or both. I still laughed.

Time to move on people. It could be much worse. People have different senses of humour. Accept it.

clutch-monkey

05-31-2006, 09:46 PM

haha I love how Sauc3's post just got completely ignored. The boy took time over that too, you mean people :p
we try not to listen to him too much :D

Sauc3

05-31-2006, 10:58 PM

but its boooooooooring;) :D
One fears the day when a... dare I say it.... NOVEL ever falls into your hands. So many words!

UCR

06-01-2006, 04:24 AM

Matra give up.
there all saddo's, they dont know what 'fun' means.

nota

06-01-2006, 02:51 PM

Yeah so am I nota.
I'll avoid you, you avoid me.
TRIED to be "grown up" and give explanations.
So I'll copycat and act the kid and hope you neeed an answer and I'm the only one on the forum able to give it :D
Let's cut through your bull shall we?

Some of us fail to see the appeal of glorifying destruction for its own sake

However you obviously think otherwise and by weird justification you attempt a supposed parallel between the act of blitzing an engine-less car for TV viewers .. against totaling a 911 during a motorsport event. This defective analogy isn't just weak - it is pathetic

You then have the nerve to promenade to me this facile 'logic' of yours as somehow being of 'superior educational benefit' and imply I should be subserviently grateful for your selfless (ceaseless) quest of higher calling to enlighten each and every one of us to your personal level of zen

Naturally these lectures are presented in typical browbeating style
Interspersed for backup is the obligatory manic rambling babble .. tree hugger .. space program .. pornography ..

I do wonder if mania plays a part in your life :( but really, you ought to get a grip. Or more precisely release said grip and try removing your hand. Alternatively by all means keep tugging it Matra to inflate your delusions of self-granduer. But in any case this chance for me to be deprived in future of all those otherwise-inevitable 'high quality' sermons of yours is a risk I'm (more than) willing to take :D [/nota]

The_Canuck

06-01-2006, 03:00 PM

One fears the day when a... dare I say it.... NOVEL ever falls into your hands. So many words!
yes but novels aren't boring;) :D

IWantAnAudiRS6

06-01-2006, 03:40 PM

yes but novels aren't boring;) :D
Have you ever tried to read We Need To Talk About Kevin?? :mad:

And as for JC... I respect what he does. He doesn't like the 911. Neither do I particularly, and I laughed my arse off watching that.

I won't even delve into the argument so I don't get confounded by overly large posts and crazy-bad typos... ;)

Chernaudi

10-14-2010, 05:58 PM

I've seen the video on You Tube alone by itself and in the orignal "Most Outrageous Jeremy Clarkson Video in the World...Ever" DVD. Looking at the Porsche before Clarkson tried to kill it, it wasn't in the best of shape, and its engine didn't sound healthy.

If Jeremy anihilated a healthy, collectable or even a repairable Porsche 911, I'd just say that he was wasting his and our time. However, it was an old, decrepit, worse for the wear 911 that was probably worth more as scrap than as a fixer.

I don't hear anyone crying foul whenever a Morris Marina is crushed to death beneith a piano on Top Gear. Why? I understand that the 911, inspite of what some decry as its faults (rear engine, etc), is a classic, where as the Marina is a pile of rusty crap built by workers at the old Morris plants in Oxford and Cowley when they weren't on strike.

Is it a matter of pereception? I'll grant you that the Marina/Ital and the Austin Allegro and Leyland Princess, among others, weren't the best built of cars, but they were also seen as common mans' cars, which meant that they were often neglected and abused. The result of that culture is that only about 650-700 Marinas are driven every day in the UK, about 850 Allegros are still driveable, and the Princess is a relatively rare site as well. Only now are such cars being realized as "classics" are they being restored and treated as such. The Morris Marina and Austin Allegro may suck, but they were better than may similar cars of their era built else where.

Italian cars of the '70s were built often out of cheap, recycled, badly rust-proofed steel. But a lot of them are regarded as classics nowadays, but you can't save all of them. Like with the BL cars, a lot of them are now beyond repair and are pretty much write offs, meaning that to restore them would cost way more than to have the car scrapped.

I didn't shead a tear when my Chevrolet Corsica was scrapped earlier this year. It's previous owners didn't do a damn thing it seemed to take care of it, which resulted in many a problem to be fixed at me and my family's expense, the $800 was no where near what it was worth, the unitbody was rusted through in several areas, and it was pretty much scrap. Not to mention that the Pontiac Grand Am it was replaced with was/is a way better car. Poor design and poorer maintance killed the Corsica. Even a Marina was better than it in most areas. Maybe one day, the Corsica may be a classic, but to me, it was friggin' scrap. I would've been honored for JC to destroy or Conan O'Brien to destroy it in his "Conan, blow up my car!" contest.

In short, the 911 is a classic, but the one that Jeremy killed off probably need to be destroyed, as the signs of wear and tear were obvious, and the same must be applied to "commoners'" cars, too. Save them for future generations, but not all can be save, especially if they're beyond saving.

McReis

10-15-2010, 03:59 AM

I'm sorry but that just isn't true. Any 911 that is working and driving normally can't be beyond repair. The value of a classic 911 is now enough to justify any deep restoration process.
Top Gear could be a great show but unfortunately irreverence became arrogance. That episode was unnaceptable for any serious classic car enthusiast.

whiteballz

10-15-2010, 04:58 AM

There are millions of Porsche's on the road, one car does not make a difference in the scheme of things.

For all we know that Porsche was condemned (like the evo in a later episode)?

McReis

10-15-2010, 05:01 AM

There are millions of Porsche's on the road, one car does not make a difference in the scheme of things.

For all we know that Porsche was condemned (like the evo in a later episode)?
It wasn't condemned for sure. Does a complete and running 911 ever go to the scrapyard? That's not a Fiesta we're talking.

pimento

10-15-2010, 05:06 AM

Also it wasn't a Top Gear episode, it was a JC straight to video 'special'. Gotta make some pocket money somehow I guess..

clutch-monkey

10-15-2010, 05:21 AM

Matra et Alpine

10-15-2010, 06:31 AM

McReis we went over this in the Alpine club when he trashed the A610.

A car is "worth" ONLY what people are willing to pay for it.
So if ( as it was with the A610 ) an eBay purchase for £5K then it isnt' THAT valuable or worth "saving".

We can all get misty-eyed ( and I did with the A610 ) but being realistic cars don't "deserve" to survive. They are only machines and only worth what people want to pay to own them.

If you can buy a working 911 for £10K, WHY would you buy one for £5K and spend £15K restoring it ? ( A friend did worse than that with an E-type in the 80s. Spent 3 times what it ended up being worth doing a restoration - he could have bought a concourse for half the cost )

Chernaudi

10-15-2010, 02:29 PM

And we should go back to the '80s, when various cars were speculated to several times their MSRP when sold, only to be discovered that they weren't the exactly the excellent cars they were, and, combined with the stock market crash, their prices plummeted.

For all we know, the Porsche that JC destroyed may've been scrap--the 911 is a unitbody car, and not matter what, be it a 911 or a Marina or Allegro, once the unitbody is holed by rust, the car can quickly become beyond salvageable, hence my write off comment. Even for classics, once the damage is deemed to be terminal, it's often cheaper to move on to an other salvageable example than try to fix a wreck.

Granted, such passion is what drives the car restoration industry, but passion must eventually be balanced with knowledge. Who knows-that 911 after it was scrapped may've had the salavagable steel in it recycled and used to make another 911. Anyone think of that possiblity? My father has scrapped damaged Ford T-birds to keep the healthy ones he owns running. That kind of cannibalism is what keeps the car industry going to an extent.

I also think that most of the Marinas destroyed on Top Gear were probably ready for the scrap yard and were beyond even the most determined efforts, and I'm one who thinks that the Marina should have some preserved examples--even crap should be allowed to exist in some form or another as the often heroic failures they were. However, at least one TG Marina survived--the one from the Ice Racing episode has appeared at various UK car shows recently, and is probabaly still driveable.

I'm no big fan of the 911 or even Porsche itself, especially with that ideot Wiedking running the company, but even I think it has its place in the world. But once its chassis is compormised or is requested under government order to be sold off or destroyed, there's no turning back, especially if the car's chassis is compormised, especially unitbody cars.

Kooper

10-23-2010, 03:52 PM

Didn't watch the video, didn't read all the comments, so I don't really have any solid or well informed basis to make any worthwhile or sensible contribution to this discussion.

But it's a Saturday night, I'm bored and have nothing better to do at this very moment, so here goes:

If you buy a car and it's fully paid for (it's legally your property in other words), then I suppose you're free to do with it what you will, aside from breaking the law or endangering someone else.

Now if you decide that you want to destroy the car for entertainment purposes, or destroy it in an attempt at providing (and perhaps failing to provide) entertainment, or because you don't like the colour or any other reason for that matter, then that's your right. It might be sad to some, but it doesn't change anything.

On the other hand, government institutions destroying many a rare and collectable car in scrappage schemes, that's something entirely different...