Phillips and Boulay fight it out in a clash of words

[fpv_gtho]

Clash of the cardigans
By Toby Hagon
The Sydney Morning Herald
Friday March 19 2004

Have Magna sales stalled because of poor marketing or crook styling? Mitsubishi's local chief and its global design boss have locked horn buttons on the issue. Toby Hagon reports.
Mitsubishi executives on opposite sides of the world are at odds over the Magna's weakening sales. As Mitsubishi Australia approaches the April 30 deadline to decide the future of its local manufacturing operations, a war of words has broken out between the global design chief and the local boss.

Chief designer Olivier Boulay has blamed poor marketing for disappointing sales. Mitsubishi Australia president and CEO Tom Phillips blames Boulay's redesign.

"Styling is an issue," says Phillips. "About 30 percent of the people have an issue [with the new Magna's styling], but with the old model 90 percent of the people thought it was boring. Have we come forward or gone backward? I'm not sure."

Boulay is adamant the look is not to blame. "It's very easy to criticise design when other people have to make some efforts [but do not]," the Frenchman says.

"Do you think it's easy for us to try to save the company with an eight-year-old car? The marketing [department] has to make a huge effort. I don't think they did a bad job, but maybe they need more money."


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Boulay also cites the lack of investment dollars, which meant only a new nose could be designed for the facelifted car, with everything from the windscreen back largely unchanged visually.

"Unconsciously, people think ... that something could have happened with the rear [of the car]," says Boulay. "But there was no investment for that."

One thing that isn't in doubt is the disappointing sales of the Magna and its more luxurious Verada sibling. Just 2141 Magnas and Veradas have been sold in the first two months of this year, 21.6 percent down on the same period last year. Compare that with the 10,030 Falcons, 11,864 Commodores and 6032 Camrys and Avalons sold in the same period and it's easy to see why Mitsubishi is concerned.

"Maybe [the new look] is not translating well into a large car," says Phillips, "and maybe the fact that we tried to put it on an older platform doesn't work as well for everybody."

Boulay disputes that, saying the styling of the smaller Lancer works and has been well accepted. "If the Lancer -- which has the absolute same theme -- sells, then it is nothing to do with the design."

However, Phillips agrees Mitsubishi needs to improve its marketing, which is set to change following last week's appointment of advertising firm Clemenger BBDO. "We are confident that the capabilities of Clemenger BBDO will bring the ideas and creative inspiration we need."

Phillips admits Mitsubishi also suffered by not properly marketing its all-wheel-drive system -- the first on a locally made car -- and pitching the Magna at the wrong customers.

More significant is the possible replacement of the 19-year-old Magna nameplate to allow a fresh start for the company's proposed new large car. "This is not my responsibility but there are some discussions," says Boulay. Mitsubishi is pushing for global names -- which explains the revival of the Colt nameplate to replace the Mirage later this year -- and Galant is a possibility for the 2005 Magna replacement.

That's if there is a next large car. Boulay's comments come at a crucial time for Mitsubishi Australia, which is fighting to stay open as one of Australia's four vehicle manufacturers. More news about its future is expected after the April 30 meeting of shareholders, which include DaimlerChrysler.

Mitsubishi Motor Corporation's president, Rolf Eckrodt, recently described the future of the Australian operations as "on the edge". He later claimed he was talking about profitability rather than long-term viability. However, there was no room for a loss-making operation.

Phillips is adamant Mitsubishi Australia will continue longer term, with the Magna replacement still on track for next year.

"We've got a battle on our hands but we're going to get there," says Phillips.

------------------------------------------


My verdict? Theyve pulled a Nasser-run Ford by creating a global styling theme that only works on small cars and is hideous on anything big (the focus and fiesta look great, the AU and Taurus were terrible), plus its not always the smartest decision having a Frenchman running your global designing

[SHAKER]

Quite simply its ugly although it looks modern, the rear looks its age compared to the new front design making it look like an old model car with a deplourable looking front end. It EVEN makes the AU Falcon look like an attractive car!!!!!!! Although I had no qualms about the styling of the front of the AU (Except for the XR8), It was the droopy rear end that turned most people away!

[fpv_gtho]

the AU though more often then not could be cured with a decent bodykit, although that didnt fix the problm as you cant just go fit a bodykit and spoiler to every damned model in the range. i actually like the styling of the old VRX's and think mitsubishi havent been daring enough with their sports styling. the VR and VRX magna look like the base model which is never a good thing

[Falcon500]

Persoanlly i thought all the car needed wasa freshen up of its current face rather then the Snake eyes front end shared with the laner...the magna is a more australain car then any other mitsu we ever had its styling while considerd ugly to some people (im notone of them i liked the older model) was it still soldfairly well...the probelm with the model is marketing as they said and lack of any frill from the range...sure the awd model performed well but most people stillwould ofthought it couldent pull the skin of a rice pudding a Dick Johnson would say....I think with the edition of a welltuned v6 or prehaps even a turbo 4 or v6 would of added some desperatly needed intrest plus if they had of shared the 5 speed auto across the range as well as a few doo dads...personally i think they just went about a versitile platform the wrong way....

[fpv_gtho]

Well they were supposedly coming out with a 200kw AWD Ralliart Magna but if that was released now it would yet again be overpriced and underpowered like the original Ralliart Magna which Mitsubishi tried to sell against the SS and XR8. Probably the next step would be a turbo kit but they've left it a bit late with the new platform coming 2005. The more i think about it, the more likely it is that bad marketing's to blame, as Toyota seem quite capable of selling the Camry which is still on the old platform unlike the American Camry, but to the Magna's defense, the Camry at least like a completely new model compared to the old one

[Falcon500]

Well the ralli art magna was quite a nice car...even if it was fwd (i think ) at the time...info is scarce and general public knew sweet nothing about it...and there was no image building for the car for example raceing it and giveing the i the big look it needed...they ended off just adverstising about the base model...funny how showing their flasgship models works better for ford and holden...i cant see why mitsu didnt do that it would of least given the public a look. Well the new platform if they can get the looks right the perforamnce right then maybey itll stabilise mitsu in this country which is what they need right now good stable sales and work from there...

[fpv_gtho]

well they claimed that it outran an SS and XR8 with a 6.71second dash to 100km/h, but the AU3 done 6.6 and the VX2 SS done about 6.4-6.5 so it mustve been them who got those figures. i think the ralliart also done a 14.8 quarter so it was no slouch

[Falcon500]

Conditions,perfect weather and even the slighest incline can make a large diffrence as far as a few tentchs went....but 14.8 is not bad in anyones book...ialso read that the magna engine is quite similarto the mitsu GTO engine so thay problyhave a fair few parts for them....

[fpv_gtho]

well 6.71 seems to be the best figure ive seen for the ralliart (wheels i think doe it around 7) but ive seen a best of about 6.3 for the SS and 6.4 for the XR8, both from motor. that 0.1 difference only gets noticed on a head to head drag though, not even noticeable in normal driving and watever but im sure the gap between them and the ralliart was a fair bit more noticeable.

well the engines are 3.0L DOHC and 3.5L SOHC so there could be similarities in the bore spacing, bore and block design which would lend them with some parts, but i dont think there wouls be too much there

[Falcon500]

Wellwith that a new platform that will more then likly have a heavily revised chassis and hopfully some performance upgrades might see a much more livly car...
Notacble...more then likly but it obviously has some top end to it comming home strongly on the 1/4 mile...prehaps we might se them in ARC...look what toyotas doing with the carolla...

[fpv_gtho]

well the 2004 Galant is supposedly the platform the 2005 Magna will be, but apparently the exterior will be nothing alike which could be a bad thing. the best chance mitsubishi will have with the magna though will be when it goes RWD.

[crisis]

The French guy is trying to save his ass. Money talks and no one is paying. In my opinion the front of the Magna is hideous. My wife had a company one home last night so I got a good eyeful . How serious was Mitsubishi if there was "no money for the rear end"? The front may suit a Lancer, but they a psuedo sporty girls cars. The Magna is a boring sedan for reps and middle aged men like me, and I dont like it. Mitsubishi will have a hard time positioning themselves next to Holden and Ford. Even the mighty Toyota knows that Avalons and Camrys are no match for the rear wheel drive staples that define Australian motoring culture in the eyes of the masses, despite their undeniable qualities.

[fpv_gtho]

well i'd be interested to see if Tom Phillips is the only one in Mitsubishi sticking the blame on Boulay. Apparently teh Americans hate it as well but they'll get the Galant before we get the new Magna so they shouldnt exactly complain as much

[Falcon500]

Well i was more thinking AWD for the rally....
A RWD magan thatll be good....
Crisis personallyand this is just (my own opion and i apologise in advance for the terminoligy im going to use) it took over chrysler as the old persons and wogs car...i base on the fact i hang out around the front counter at the commonwelth and the only people who come in and ask for parts for magnas tend to be elderly people and people of an ethnic backround also a mate of mine in the main delaership (whos an iatai) owned a magna said it was a great car where my brother drove one as a curtousy vehical while his ute was in the shop getting its diff replaced when it was the shock leaking...said it was bland, fuel ecconmy was worse then expected and smelt funny (though that might of been the hire company) which reminds me of stories of old where valients got similar raps compared to falcons and holdens...

[fpv_gtho]

well both RWD and AWD would be good, chuck in a V8 and the magna can go rallying or go in the V8 Supercars, although that last one i'd prefer for the moment they didnt. I dont know whether Ford and Holden secretly admit to themselves the advantages of FWD or whether its better to switch to FWD, or if Toyota and Mitsubishi do the same with RWD, but half of the Australian industry feeds is RWD is better whilst the other half tries to tell us FWD is better. If Mitsubishi want to get serious on local Magna sales, they seriosuly need a RWD car to appeal to the bulk of people

[Falcon500]

Its an appeal thing..FWD does have advantges and is cheaper but you know the story drivetrain losses.....blah blah
I think rwd will help...but what they need more then anything is an appealing car...something that makes you think thats nice looking goes great and most of all I WANT ONE....

[fpv_gtho]

well FWD really restricts them in selling the cars off as performance as many people who know their stuff about cars know the difficult in putting too much power into the front wheels by themselves. Mitsubishi at least have the AWD to fall back on with this, but i dont know what toyota will do if and when they stick the 180kw supercharged v6 in the camry. RWD is essentially probably the biggest selling point though in australian automotive culture. it literally spells out burnouts, skids, drifts and everything else the front wheels wont do, which is what most young australians at least just love doing, despite the legalities behind it

[Falcon500]

Well its depened on what the cars targetedat really...A camry is expectedto catch (in theiory) the person who wants a refined car and jap technology....but the car is quite frankly a flop! It doesnt really appeal to many people and is rather bland for the people who are after refinement...
Ill just bide my time to see what their doing...mitsu on the other hand i think theyll talk abotu it when the time comes....

[fpv_gtho]

Well when the time comes it might be too late, that could be the biggest problem in mitsubishi's product planning. They respond to the market after it shifts, they dont predict things and hope to have the product out by the time its demanded.

Well i think Toyota's strategy for car they present to the market has really backfired, when Wheels done their 5 way local car comparison, guess who filled in 4th and 5th......Exactly, the Avalon and Camry. Although Toyota for the Camry and Avalon that we get, its built off a modified version of the Camry platform my mum drives rather than the new platform.

[Falcon500]

Well its hard to predict things...especailly for a cardigen/wog car producer.....young people dream about driveing HSV's and falcon XR8s and GT's (in general) and mitsu have nothing no magnas in any noteable motorsport,bland looks and the new snake eyes face is really hitting them hard!
The avalon also has the worst crash rateing of the lot...theyll make a fantastic family car in a few years with their worse then AU depretiation....The avalon is really a v6 toeting ultra soft camry....boring as bat shit....and the interor is to damn quite! not a noise!

[fpv_gtho]

Well some things are easy, some things are hard. Ford and Holden probably saw it coming a mile away that they weren't going to survive with just the Commodore and Falcon platforms selling, and thus Ford came out with the Territory. For Holdens sake hopefully the Adventra is just something for Holden to fill the gap when they can get something with at least a different body to the Commodore wagon like the Territory in relation to the Falcon as after a while people might start to wonder why should they bother buying something thats a jacket up existing product when they can buy something that at least is unique in regards to the exterior.

Well perhaps this is why Mitsubishi have talked so much about entering the V8 Supercars, so they can springboard their marketing and styling departments of their involvement in that. It would work, Subaru and Mitsubishi do it off the WRC scene but if Mitsubishi entered V8 Supercar's tomorrow, all the effort of Marcos Ambrose to draw the fans back to the stands would be lost as they'd just end up leaving again in disgust. They need to talk up the idea alot more and not just try and jump in and see what happens.

[Falcon500]

Well a strong GT-P program and a class bathurst 24 hour win would help dont you think? and this is just an example...
Holdens sales spins with the adventra is that it just rpoves how versitile the commadore platfrom is....ive seen people make 4x4 HQs does that mean their versitile?

[fpv_gtho]

well if they could engineer a FWD layout for the Magna so that it got the power down, handled good and wasn't a dog to live with in comparison to a RWD layout, well then they may have some luck but i think if someone tried to psuh a magna around bathurst for 24hours and beat RWD V8 falcons and commodores they'd really struggle to do it or the understeer of the car would push them through forest's elbow.

well at the moment all holden seems interested in doing is sticking the crosstrac system under everything they can even if it means modifications done on the assembly line, as is the case with the coupe4, but eventially i dont think they will reap the benefits as much as ford with a modified product, so to speak

[crisis]

well at the moment all holden seems interested in doing is sticking the crosstrac system under everything they can even if it means modifications done on the assembly line, as is the case with the coupe4, but eventially i dont think they will reap the benefits as much as ford with a modified product, so to speak
Holden have a lot less to loose. They are spreading the costs of the modification over a wide range of vehicles as you say. Ford are pinning the sales outcome of what is a far more expensive and time and capital intensive project on one car.

[fpv_gtho]

very true crisis, both manufacturers have their own reasons and business case for their individual decisions, i just think Ford have a product that will generate more sales. some people will just look at the Adventra and see it as a raised commodore wagon with wank appeal, whilst others will see it as a more versatile car.

[crisis]

some people will just look at the Adventra and see it as a raised commodore wagon with wank appeal,
It has that in spades. Most of the ones Ive seen driving around are driven by women. I fear Toorak tractor syndrome.

[fpv_gtho]

i think any 4wd or SUV could possess wank appeal, just how much is the question. you could park a single women in a Hummer and theres no question about it there, but you could get a married couple with 6 children in a landcruiser and think, yeah theyve got a fairly valid reason there.

manufacturers have literally made the 4wd market explode with all the individual categories in an attempt to stop people thinking about the car's wank appeal and rather that the individual person has had the choice to buy a car they think will meet their needs. so we get ford and holden making 4wd falcon and commodore derivatives, claiming the buyers want more freedom in their driving when deep down we know people are starting to like big hulky things that need a long range fuel tank to go down to the shops. all the manufacturers that have joined the soft roader bandwagon in the past 5 years are claiming the buyers still want the freedom to take their cars offroad, so these cars are coming out claiming to have 4wd but are really fwd and they send the power elsewhere when its too late, and the manufacturers are saying the car only goes where its designed to go. well i think ive seen a hundred times old mitsubishi wagons going somewhere people wouldnt think of taking their porsche cayennes or they'd get bogged in their Rav4's

[crisis]

so we get ford and holden making 4wd falcon and commodore derivatives, claiming the buyers want more freedom in their driving when deep down we know people are starting to like big hulky things that need a long range fuel tank to go down to the shops.
Anyone taking any of these SUVs "off road" will probably be in for a surprise. The majority will probably only have them on dirt tracks which is about all they are good for. That two wheel drives can negotiate most of these is of little consequence I suppose. More worrying is when these things get down on a beach with 55 profile highway tyres and people who think becasue they have a 4 wheel drive they are invinceable. I doubt they have proper recovery points to allow them to be snatched out either not to mention a snatch strap or another car to attach it to. In reality it is probably better thay dont take their all roaders off road at all.

[fpv_gtho]

well in reality any one can get stuck whilst offroad regardless of if theyre in a CRV or a Hummer, it just takes an idiot behind the wheel. with the majority of the soft roaders being car based i doubt they would have anything more than a simple tow hook somewhere hidden in the bumpers

[motorsportnerd]

well if they could engineer a FWD layout for the Magna so that it got the power down, handled good and wasn't a dog to live with in comparison to a RWD layout, well then they may have some luck but i think if someone tried to psuh a magna around bathurst for 24hours and beat RWD V8 falcons and commodores they'd really struggle to do it or the understeer of the car would push them through forest's elbow.


Gotta put my two cents worth in here. Most people would never notice the difference between FWD, RWD and AWD in day to day driving. I've owned both front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars, and the main time you notice the difference is in the wet. The VL Commodore I used to have would slide the rear on takeoffs in the wet. The two Telstars I had would display plenty of torque steer in the wet. My current Mondeo does neither. But then the Mondeo does have a well developed chassis (regarded as one of the best FWD chassis in the 90s). I've never driven an AWD, so can't comment there.
I believe the only times RWD would have an advantage to most people would be in towing and extreme cornering. Most drivers would never do either.
If a Magna was entered at Bathurst for the 24 hour, I doubt that understeer would be a significant enought problem to stop it winning. Reliability would be more important, since in road trim a Ralliart Magna's 0-100 times isn't too far off the XR8 and SS. The drivers would have to live with it. After all, anyone seen video footage of Glen Seton in a RWD Nissan Skyline Turbo in the wet at Bathurst in 1987? Now that was an evil handling car, but it still finished second.
Also, about a month back, I saw a Ralliart Magna for sale for $29,500 in Sydney. Talk about savage depreciation. Wouldn't be a bad buy now...

[fpv_gtho]

you would be surprised how highly most people hold towing ability around here, the perfect car for most people would probably be a V8 that can tow hard, hell one of my friends has a 33 ford hotrod that he's towed almost 2 tonnes with.

driven hard is usually when the differences come out or when theres a lack of grip. driving like an old granny you'll hardly tell the difference but i dont know many people that have a car over 150kw and never try and floor it around a corner

[motorsportnerd]

I wasn't talking about enthusiasts, just average drivers and driving conditions. With 150kW under foot I'd floor it when I could get away with it as well (and have done in the rental Falcon BAs I've driven). And most people I know, don't tow boats. Almost any car will tow small trailers. I actually know a couple of people who own Magnas, and they're not old and grey. They're actually in their 30s and 40s, and seem perfectly happy with them.
Pretty much a case of horses for courses...

[Falcon500]

I can atest too awds stability in hard cornering from when i was fueling a WRX and a liberty RX (or what everthe 2.5 one was) they went around the roundabout near the bmw delaer much easier then most the BMWs (that i was aloud to drive) could ever hope to muster...i only wish i could of taken the z4 around the roundabout...that would of been fun...though i more then likly would of been thinking that the car was worth nearly 4 years worth of wages....(which is why i was nearly shakeing the entier time even in the short distance i drove it...)
The only real fwd that i rember dirveing was the new style celica which handeled well but felt rather vauge (apprently a trait with fwd) but i never really done anything interesting in that...it was slap your Ls on and see what you think of my new buy....While it felt vauge you could point it and it would go there...but of course thats what my old mans 1000 does and you can feel the road through that.
I found the Au even handeled beter then the bland beemers that where worth more used....more feel more stability and much more power...
I have drivan 2 4 wheel drives in my life one was some mercades thing...a true soft roader in every sense of the matter slow as all hell but stopped better then i ever hoped...the next was a turbo diesel parado which effortlessly pulled (which i really liked....and i discoverd right before i left the delarship i still had the hand break on and it went even better :rolleyes: ) im told the pardo is a good off roader but i dont really know.....
Welltheres a long list of a good portion of my driveing experiance...doubt it really helps any...
Oh and the ethnic gentalman who i was tlaking about who owned the magna was 22....

[motorsportnerd]

I haven't driven the new shape Celica. But a mate used to have a 87 Toyota Celica - the first front wheel drive one. I remember that the steering did seem a little vague, but there was minimal body roll and the cornering stance was flat.
I've driven the last shape Toyota Camry 4 clyinder quite extensively and my flatmate bought a V6 Camry Conquest, which I've driven briefly. The steering on the old shape Camry is certainly very vague and the handling understeer prone. But I think a good car was trying to get out. Slightly firmer and better weighted steering and a slightly firmer suspension would have cured the old shape Camry.
Also driven the new 4 cly Camry, and the steering is a lot better. Can't comment on the handling since I was driving it around Melbourne street with no real corners, but the chassis did feel a little more sporty. I'd have to drive the new generation one a lot further to judge the handling properly. Steering aside, I didn't think the new Camry was much of an advance over the old one. The interior in particular cuts corners. The centre consol smacks of cost cutting (why doesn't the centre consol meet the transmission tunnel?) and the equipment levels are low. The only thing it had that my seven year old Mondeo doesn't have is a CD player and electric front windows. Fit and finish didn't seem as good as my flatmate's Conquest either, though that may be because it was a hard driven rental.
Your comments about vague steering are more a Toyota issue than a FWD issue. The Mondeo has very firm, well weighted steering with plenty of feedback through the corners. And a very neutral chassis. Minimal understeer, no oversteer (or a least I've never induced any) and well controlled body roll. Main thing the Mondeo lacks is power, but the ST24 would cure that. Pity I couldn't afford to buy an ST24 back in 2001 when I bought my Mondeo.
I've driven the Magna as well, albiet briefly. When I was looking for my current car a Magna was high on the short list. I remember the engine (the 3.0 V6) was particularly good, but can't comment on the chassis since I only drove it about 10 km. I didn't buy the Magna in the end for the same reason I didn't buy either a Falcon or a Commodore. Too big for a single bloke and uses too much petrol for my needs. I was going to look at Corollas or Lasers, but when the Mondeo came up within my budget with less than 50,000 km, I didn't have to think too hard. It certainly beats any Corolla/Pulsar/Laser option. The Mondeo met all my criteria. Under $16,000, under 5 years old (at the time I bought it) and low mileage. Small enough to be good around town, large enough to cruise comfortably on the freeways. I wanted a car with a good handling, good fuel economy and basic safety features (drivers airbag and 4 wheel discs in the Mondeo's case, plus a 3 star NCAP rating and a reputation for having a strong passenger cell). It's NOT a performance car by any means, but it is enjoyable enough to drive through the twisties. Certainly handles well enough for a mate to tell me to slow down through the Alpine Pass in the Snowy's earlier this month... And I must point out that my main form of transport is not actually a car, but a large silver CityRail train (when it arrives on time), since I work in Sydney CBD. And I probably say petrol be damned next time I buy a car and buy a BA Falcon...

But, back to steering feel and FWD... The Peugeot 406, Mazda 6 and pretty much any FWD hot hatch from Europe all have excellent reputations for their steering feel. And the new Mondeo (which I've driven in NZ) is even better than mine. I wouldn't base my judgement of FWD and vague steering on any Toyota - simply put, Toyota buyers prefer light, vague steering (that's one of the reasons my flatmate prefers his car over mine...)

[fpv_gtho]

I didn't think the new Camry was much of an advance over the old one.


thats because in terms of the one we got, it wasnt. they claimed all new camry but under the skin apparently it was the old camry, same as the "new" avalon is old camry as well.

i dont think the ST24 would really settle any power needs, more than likely suspension and grip, unless of course a 125kw 2.5L V6 rocks your boat

[Falcon500]

I never did think of it thats way..and everyone in here i think nkows my dislike for vauge stearing.....
Ive ehard stories that the couger (new fwd one) was pehaps one of the best handeling FWD cars there is...allive done in one of them was havea sit and aplay with the gears....i dont like fwd gearboxes much either...feel kinds clunky...the toyta celica box didnt feel as dead smooth as the 85 modeli drove...but its only really a niggle....

[fpv_gtho]

the cougar i dare say was another victim of the old too much chassis for engine power theory that the falcon, fiesta and focus all suffer from. i think they wouldve sold better with a lower price and the 3.0L Duratec. even still the cougar eibach looked pretty sweet

[motorsportnerd]

the cougar i dare say was another victim of the old too much chassis for engine power theory that the falcon, fiesta and focus all suffer from. i think they wouldve sold better with a lower price and the 3.0L Duratec. even still the cougar eibach looked pretty sweet

I assume you mean the Focus RS. The basic Focus and Zetec/ST170 don't have any chassis problems. And your point about the ST24 - you're right 125 odd kW isn't much, but it is better than the 96kw my car has. By all accounts it did largely solve the problem of a lack of power in the original Mondeo. The more powerful ST200 perhaps had too much, the ST24 was about right for the chassis.
And, I do enjoy more power (is 180 kw in the BA enough?), but its not everything.

Also, I should point out I've driven plenty of RWD cars and I don't actually have a preference for FWD or RWD. I'll take either. Depends on the priorities I'm looking for at the particular time I buy a car.

[fpv_gtho]

well the focus doesnt have a problem, neither do the falcon and fiesta, but lets just say the fiesta could easily handle the 127kw engine, the focus CL could take the 160kw Duratec turbo and the XT could easily take the Boss260.....each respective chassis just cries out for more power and its not because of a lack of power, rather the engineering effort

[Falcon500]

The couger was a cool car but it sufferd from a premium price tag....much the same as the mustang.....
Give them time they are developing a AWD coswirth powerd version of the Focus in the UK and ford are slowly adding to the GT...we already have a great car in the falcon as it is and their refineing it alowly but surely...

[fpv_gtho]

well i remember the standard cougar being around $38K or something i think with the eibach around $45K so that was getting into XR8 territory, not to mention most of its competition was either sub $30K or a hell of a lot faster like the celica and silvia.

ford really need to have a look at their suspension setups. sure theyre doing wonders hiding the front heaviness of the cars and just the general bulk but still theyre too soft for the buyers demands, so perhaps the solution would be something like the ohlins adjustable dampers put on the VY2 GTS as an option across the range, i sure as hell would tick the box alongside the Brembo's

[Falcon500]

They wernt a hall of a lot faster...still where faster and much sportier....the couger wasnt a little sports car like the celica or anything else but it still had a bigish engine for its size and fantastic handeling.
Wellim assuming it is very very expensive...i think they should stiffen them a bit more see if they can find a gooey medium there...

[fpv_gtho]

well i think the car originated in america, badged as a mercury cougar and was built off the mondeo's platform so probably for the quality and performance, it was too much.

well untill i drive an XR8 or GT i wont really know how soft the car really is, but everyone seems dissapointed with how soft FPV went with it. the adjustable systems are expensive when individually engineered for a single manufacturer, but unless you do that your not going to get as good a feel as possible out of the car

[Falcon500]

Ihavent heard boo about their build quality...the worst thing i have seen or heard is the rough surfaces on its engine block.....
You can get a stiff set up thats not up to todays standards of driveing (bunch of wet pussies wheels and co are) new cars are soft in general...how they can differntiate that a ba XT ahndels well where a GT is soft is really looking for somethign to knock about the car if you ask me....

[fpv_gtho]

well i think the biggest problem comes when wheels complement the VT when theyre really saying its got a better ride than an executive then for the GT they bag it out because they rather the clubby, thats usually the way things really work but they tell a different story.

[motorsportnerd]

well untill i drive an XR8 or GT i wont really know how soft the car really is, but everyone seems dissapointed with how soft FPV went with it. the adjustable systems are expensive when individually engineered for a single manufacturer, but unless you do that your not going to get as good a feel as possible out of the car


Hopefully its not too hard. For me the ride/handling compromise is the most important aspect of a cars dynamics. A car should be able to handle extremely well, provide excellent feedback through the sterering, while still providing a comfortable and controlled ride. The French do this well. The Falcon BA XT is, to me, also an excellent compromise. The steering is light, but has plenty of feel. The handling is excellent for such a big, non enthusiast car. The ride is very comfortable and well controlled. Only real problem is the body roll. Certainly, out of all the cars I've driven the Falcon BA XT has the best ride/handling compromise.

[fpv_gtho]

well the whole idea about the control blade IRS is the manufacturer doesnt have to stiffen up the whole ride to have the car hold corners, stay flat and feel sporty. they can have the car absorb potholes and speedbumps whilst being able to stay competitive at eastern creek, but by saying that it might only be at eastern creek you can extract the full potential of the cars, and whilst FPV might offer their free driver training, i dont think alot of their buyers take the cars onto the track quite regularly

[Falcon500]

real problem is the body roll. Certainly, out of all the cars I've driven the Falcon BA XT has the best ride/handling compromise.
Well rember it is a bread and butter car...its not built to zoom aourn a race track....
I doubt alot of the drivers will race them too...but it makes sure that the drivers know how to extract the best out of their cars...and its good braging rights....

[motorsportnerd]

Well rember it is a bread and butter car...its not built to zoom aourn a race track....
I doubt alot of the drivers will race them too...but it makes sure that the drivers know how to extract the best out of their cars...and its good braging rights....

I don't mind the body roll - just that's the only criticism I can make of the XT's ride/handling compromise. Otherwise, its close to perfect for its intended role.

On a slightly different note, have you noticed how cheap the BAs are getting? Jubilee Ford in Sydney has a number of XTs for $21,888. It thought I'd go see what sort of mileage they'd done. All had less than 50,000 km (most about 45,000km, a couple had 35,000km), so they're not really high mileage. After 18 months, that's a huge chunk of depreciation. I want to buy one, but can't help feeling that if I wait till this time next year I'll pick up low mileage BAs for around $16-17,000, just like you can get AU111s for that now...

[fpv_gtho]

well the 1 year depreciation of the BA's is about 75% and predicted 3 year is 60% so thats considerably better than the AU which had a 3 year rate of 50%. ford and holden though are currently in a price cut war, with the 25th anniversary commodore and falcon sports pack all carrying about $5K of sports gear at around $2K under the retail price so thats not going to be good

[Falcon500]

ive seen low milage AU fortes go for 10k flat....

[fpv_gtho]

well my dad bought his fairmont for i think $18K and its a 99 model, but that was what the guy he bought it off was going to trade it in for when he got his BA. an AU at 10 flat i would expect to either be in crap quality or highly used, but its low km's

[motorsportnerd]

well my dad bought his fairmont for i think $18K and its a 99 model, but that was what the guy he bought it off was going to trade it in for when he got his BA. an AU at 10 flat i would expect to either be in crap quality or highly used, but its low km's

AUs have really bad resale. I've seen higher mileage ones going for as low as $7000. I believe Falc. I wouldn't pay much more that $10,000 for a 99 AU Forte with about 80,000 km on the clock. My car's worth about the same and its two years older (lower km though)...

[Falcon500]

well its a fairmont and a v8...the v8 models held quite well compared too i6 fortes....
The car did have a few problems...but they where caused bythe sons owner (but they still (managed to tradeit in for 12k lol)

[fpv_gtho]

well the guy my dad bought it off probably couldve gotten away with asking over $20K for it in a private sale, but i think he was just trying to get rid of it and was going to trade it in for the new Fairmont Ghia V8 as i said before, and my dad wants that one when hes trading that in as well.

[Falcon500]

ASK HIM FOR IT!....itll save you haveing to hunt around and you know the full history of the car.....
If failing that i hope he trades it on something good....like a new GT.....

[fpv_gtho]

well right now my grandfather has the car and is set to keep it so i dont think my chances of getting it are good. for now i probably wouldnt be able to afford to run the car either and i'd be looking for something a bit older

[Falcon500]

Youd be suprised how cheap late model injected 8s are to run...especially foord ones! and im serieous the 5 liters we made done about 185 kw (97 and some later vintages) done a bit under 30 mpg or about 12 or 11 liters per 100 km...
As for something older there is a 71 falcon 500 that might be for sale :(

[fpv_gtho]

well this particular one has the 175kw engine and gets around 14L/100km and around 16L/100km towing a boat. its my dad that thinks i couldnt afford to run the car as i'd more than likely be leadfooting it to hear the windsor :p

[Falcon500]

Well the figures i quoted would be acheived in a country sitiation on level ground and with a very level driver...so in other words it rarely happens....
just get some flash exaust and drive with the window down....and as for the nutting it thing youno doubt would give it a good revving...but thats one thing that calms down....ive got a mate who it hasnt calmed down for and hes onto his 3rd car....

[fpv_gtho]

well country driving is usually just feathering the throttle in top gear, my dad wouldnt know how to drive like that with a gun to his head. myself, i think starting off in the car i'd be pretty easy on it but once im all settled into it who knows what i'd do

[Falcon500]

I drive like a granny more out of necisity....we have speed cameras every where and 80km/h (most of the roads i travelon) is plenty fast enough...as for driveing i love to speed but it leaves you after a while....and when you grow out of it you get a better little guilty feeling when you do it ;)

[fpv_gtho]

you cant seriously be saying those useless speed cameras are actually saving lives by slowing people down and not simply collecting revenue :D

well yeah i guess after a while the thrill of driving just wears off, or after the first couple of speeding tickets you realise you cant afford to keep speeding so something must be done

[Falcon500]

Itsnot the thrill that ware off its just misbehaveing all the time looses its luster...i havent goten one yet though i came very close in an encounter with a queanslander in a commadore wagon.....them and victorians are really bad when they leave their home state...its like the air affects their brains or something....

[fpv_gtho]

well the victorians are stuck with a dumbarse government that has thier no tolerance policies, so when they get away with that they probably let themselves loose or something. well i guess it would take someone pretty immature to live through hald a century of driving liek a teenager, some day youve just got to sit down and realise you can have fun other ways i suppose

[Falcon500]

Welli still ahvefunbut thats usually away from prying eyes and traffic...theres a time and a place for everything and dont be too upset if your caught...
This queenslander was doing 60 in an 80 zone....so i's indicated and over take him at the posted limit....i go to finish my over takeing manuver probly one ofthe first leagal ones that road has ever seen! look once hes a few metres back...and i turn around for a second look as i merge to see the front 1/4 or a qld commie that would of met my rear 1/4 if i didnt nail it!the stupid bastard accelerated so i couldent pass him at the last possible second...then my stomac sunk as i i was closeing on a speed camera van which i tapped the breaks and passed at 75....it worked but i was shitting myself....i also let the qlder realise how upset i was in words i wont mention in here...

[fpv_gtho]

well everyone can't be expected to strictly follow the rules, whether its because of a rebellious nature or the damned stupid ruling.

drivers like that can be such pricks, they deserve someone in a big $wd to just knock them off the road or something.....first they drive clearly under the posted limit then when a manouvre is safely taken to pass them they get all defensive and act like theyre king of the road or something

[Falcon500]

Well some4x4 owners need humbers to knock them off the road...i hada dude in a red (maybey its the colour?...) toyta of some kind who was trying to merge...fair enough you mgiht think but i was already there and accelerateing to my 100 km/h and he was trying to pass my so he could merge in front of me (yeah right do a little weight math....) and he beeped at me because he couldent merge...in all realisum he should of just tapped the breaks and merge behing me and if he was really in thatmuch of a hurry overtaken me while i was puttering along at the posted limit.....

[fpv_gtho]

well you get drivers i guess who expect you to slow down when theyre overaking you, and those who are afraid of it and dont want to let it happen. by law, you have to stay doing the limit whilst overtaking so if its a bit of a hot spot for cops, your more worthwile just to stick it out of someones doing 5km/h under the posted limit. Wheels in their latest issue outlined all this, that overtaking someone doing 90 at 100km/h would take i think 14 seconds and 500m of road, whilst going to 110 would take around 5 seconds and 200m........somewhere along those lines but pretty much they were outlining how stupid they thought it was that you cant speed whilst overtaking

[Falcon500]

Well the stupid thing is that somepeople take that idea and twist it by keeping thatup and weaveing in and out of traffic...speeding is bad and if you cant over take someone with out speeding in theory you shouldent....

[fpv_gtho]

well with the way the government treats speeding, im surprised its actually legal to overtake, surely there would be something they could fabricate to make it seem overly dangerous. maybe when they come across a case where a drunk driver tried to overtake someone, and rather just stayed alongside the car until he fell asleep and a truck wiped him off the road.....its cases like that theyre coming up with for their statistics on speeding.

[Falcon500]

Well in theiry you shouldent need to unless the driver in front of you is going 20k less...and most drivers dont have the patience to stay 10 km slower behind another car...that why i get pissed off because i dont make a habit of speeding i stay there other wise ill miss my turn....

[fpv_gtho]

well other than a motorway, most people can probably live with 10k's under the limit, whey your goign around someone doing 20 under the limit you dont really need to speed to get around them

[Falcon500]

I think the cops should also focus on people who are going too slow in some areas as well as pseeding...i think its called loitering if your going 20 clicks under the limit...and is a smokeable offence....

[fpv_gtho]

well 20km/h isnt really that much of a difference but along a highway you would really feel it, so that would be the only situation i think i would support fining people going to slow. along motorways, the lanes are clearly marked to keep to the left unless overtaking so as long as the people going heaps slower keep out of the way to the left there shouldnt be any problem, not to mention all the different laws for different conditions that say how fast you can go, like knock of 10km/h in the wet, i think towing something ou can only do 80km/h, L's are only 80 or so i think and P's are about 100........