Impressions, expectations, and the future.

[Blitz_]

With the all new commodore now in showrooms and a plethora of reviews circulating Australia, it isn't a suprise that its a hit, even if there are the skeptical individuals whom still think it is a let down. This is an important era in Australian motoring. Consumers are looking towards smaller, more fuel efficient cars, and the LPG gas coversions are through the roof, just look at the demands once the grants were offered!

The car is no doubt an instrumental cog in a very large machine. However, one must consider the other competitors in the market and the effect they will have on both the Commodore itself and the Australian car market. For one, I hope that the market can lift itself up from the slum and consumers spend thier hard earned cash on the large car sedans we have all grown up to love and adore. Watching the 60 minutes report on fuel made me duck behind the covers, what will really happen once the search for new oil deposits is a lost hope and dream? Where the remaining reserves diminish and everything we see, which is made, produced from at least something out of oil, is then suddenly gone.

Moving on form that, you're probably wondering where im going with this. I'm no A-grade grammer student, although I fancy myself a better reader than a writer. I ask all of you in the Aussie forums, and to anyone who is interested and curious about the future of motoring, at least in Australia. What are you're impressions of the Commodore, does it meet your "expectations" or what you want it to deliver? Will it be the car to revive the market and boost sales in the market in general? Or will it prove to be a billion dollar baby, where, like the movie of similiar name, will be put to rest by her hard working trainer?

The Aurion is just around the corner. What of this glowing light from Toyota? Well, for one it claims a class leading 9.9l / 100km, not too bad. However, it does itself a low blow by being more efficient than its smaller sized, smaller engined stablemate, the Camry. Toyota went on the defensive saying consumers looked at the number of cylinders instead. I happen to be the queen as well.

We're up for a fierce rivalry in my honest opinion. Others may think otherwise, but the comparisons are unavoidable. With both cars on the market, I think it will be enough to rejuvinate the market. I don't expect the Aurion to be visually as good as the commodore, though I know Toyata will have several aspects of this car that will surpass its lion badged rival.

I leave you with this, what are you impressions, expectations, and thoughts of about the future? About the cars, the market, and the effect on the Australian community as a whole.

Thats about enough ranting from me, I was so curious about the coming year that I decided to let my brain spill and type a few things. I hope it wasn't too long, and you might not see where im coming from, but its the best I can do at such a late night. Its going to be an interesting few years, with the commodore in full flight, the Aurion ready to launch, and the renewed falcon going through its stages of development, awaiting to hatch.

my 2c.

[Rockefella]

I've discussed the Holden Commodore with Quiggs like a week ago.. and my question is this: Does the car really have THAT much impact on Australia?

No doubt that it has the credentials in making it a desirable car, but is all the hype worth it? Now, this release of a Pacific-Rim Toyota held up as it's competition come 2007 is like WWIII for you guys down-under?

I'm probably not in a position to comment about this stuff, seeing as I'm in North America, but I feel like you guys view the new Commodore as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just find it rather comical.

EDIT: I'm not posting this to cause trouble/debate, it's just my '2 cents'.

/rant

[Blitz_]

Not exactly sliced bread, but its a case of hype really building up a product and the amount of media coverage has been overwhelming. The large car segment in a way will be affected in either a large / small way by the commodore, hence its importance.

[pimento]

The Falcadore (for the uninitiated: the Falcon and Commodore) has long been an iconic car in the Australian market, mainly due to the romance with the large Aussie saloon. It's never been a segment of the market I aspire to though, I'd prefer to spend the money on a Golf or something so it's not a battle that I'll be participating in. It'd be nice to see them with a few alternative fuel models happening though.

[thatdbeme]

I've discussed the Holden Commodore with Quiggs like a week ago.. and my question is this: Does the car really have THAT much impact on Australia?

No doubt that it has the credentials in making it a desirable car, but is all the hype worth it? Now, this release of a Pacific-Rim Toyota held up as it's competition come 2007 is like WWIII for you guys down-under?

I'm probably not in a position to comment about this stuff, seeing as I'm in North America, but I feel like you guys view the new Commodore as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just find it rather comical.

EDIT: I'm not posting this to cause trouble/debate, it's just my '2 cents'.

/rant

its quite comical to some of us here aswell... not everyone believes the commodore to be the be all and end all.. but those who do can be quite convincing to an outsider..

i believe the aurion will be a very good car, its success is going to have a lot to do with pricing.

no offence to anyone

[crisis]

I've discussed the Holden Commodore with Quiggs like a week ago.. and my question is this: Does the car really have THAT much impact on Australia?
Yes is the short answer. It is the top selling large rear wheel drive sedan. You guys should try one! ;)


I'm probably not in a position to comment about this stuff, seeing as I'm in North America, but I feel like you guys view the new Commodore as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just find it rather comical.



It is probably a better car than almost anything comparable from the U.S. It has been roundly praised by the motoring press who have been eager to criticise previous models. These previous models have been exported as Chev Caprices and Luminas to Saudi Arabia because you guys have forgotten how to build rear wheel drive sedans with decent engines (even though you build the engines). Holden even had to show you how to make a GTO again.
I suppose what I am saying is Holden is a tiny manufacturer on the world scale in a pissant market yet they have been able to build pretty good cars value wise along with Ford that suit the market. By sticking with large rear wheel drive family sedans they have made a niche for themselves which is only really threatened by far more expensive European marques.

As far as Toyotas impact on Commodores and Falcon, Toyota have always built good reliable cars. The new Camry and Aurion are just a continuation. They have not been able to knock Commodore and Falcon off before (and the attempt with the Avalon was a disaster even though I am sure it was a good car).
And while thousands are ditching their big cars in place of smaller economical cars fuel prices today are at a 5 month low in Adelaide. $1.18 a litre. Sounds like a similar cycle we went through 20 years back. And Holden and Ford have progressively put in bigger engines that are more and more economical. 6lt V8s with better fuel efficiency than 6 cylinder engines of 10 years back.
It is unlikely fuel will drop below $1.00 a litre again but the recent artificial price jump looks to be over and things are not as bad as many thought they would be.
Lucky I didn’t sell my V8 Cruiser for a RAV.

[Blitz_]

Fine points made thier crisis. The commodore holds alot of importance because of its sales alone. Yes, to some its comical, but that opinion is based upon several key factors that change when you consider someone who owns a commodore, falcon, or has a deep interest in how the segment will survive.

On the way to work today, I head on the radio that they are expecting fuel prices to possible drop to around $1.00 around the early stages of next year, a good sign for motorists in general, and even more so for the sales of the commodore, falcon, the new Aurion and any large car that is percieved to be a fuel guzzler.

Even now, i dont think the Aurion will trump either the Falcon or Commodore, but if it improves upon its previous mistakes with the Avalon, being exterior appearance one of them, it will be a winner. Toyota are reliable, but I still wont buy one due to thier being a better car in every segment at roughly the same price, its as simple as that.

[Rockefella]

Yes is the short answer. It is the top selling large rear wheel drive sedan. You guys should try one! ;)
Your SS-V is coming to the states as the new Pontiac Grand Prix. ;)

[Blitz_]

Your SS-V is coming to the states as the new Pontiac Grand Prix. ;)


:O when did they announce this? One thing for certain, you yank's will LOVE it :D

p.s. im still a ford fan :D hahaha.

[clutch-monkey]

^ provided pontiac doesn't molest it..

[Rockefella]

:O when did they announce this? One thing for certain, you yank's will LOVE it :D
The same way we loved the GTO? Oh yeah, it didn't sell!

ZING!

[clutch-monkey]

The same way we loved the GTO? Oh yeah, it didn't sell!

ZING!
presumably because americans are too stupid to know a good product when they see it :D
...or pontiac is useless.

[Rockefella]

presumably because americans are too stupid to know a good product when they see it :D
...or pontiac is useless.
I'm going to have to start a war in this thread now. :D

[clutch-monkey]

well, you guys insist on buying the pap produced by the big three, and then along comes a good car which had it's front end raped by pontiac and customers refused to buy it until they pre-riced it from the factory... :D

[Blue Supra]

i saw a VE SS in the hero orange today on the road, spotted it from a mile away. it doesnt look BAD but i think it really just looks like a revamped VZ...

[fpv_gtho]

I've discussed the Holden Commodore with Quiggs like a week ago.. and my question is this: Does the car really have THAT much impact on Australia?

No doubt that it has the credentials in making it a desirable car, but is all the hype worth it? Now, this release of a Pacific-Rim Toyota held up as it's competition come 2007 is like WWIII for you guys down-under?

I'm probably not in a position to comment about this stuff, seeing as I'm in North America, but I feel like you guys view the new Commodore as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just find it rather comical.

EDIT: I'm not posting this to cause trouble/debate, it's just my '2 cents'.

/rant

Think of it this way, the AVERAGE Australian's opinion of the 4 manufacturers building cars here is something along the lines of:

Mitsubishi: Stupid Japs

Toyota: Stupid Japs

Ford: Stupid Yanks

Holden: OMG!! R0x0rs aussie car w000 gotta save the local car industryblabla bla.....

So i guess you can see why when Holden introduce a new model into such turbulent times for the local industry, the average person sees it as a much bigger thing than Toyota introducing both the US and Japanese Camry in a sense, and rebadging one as a new model.

[crisis]

The same way we loved the GTO? Oh yeah, it didn't sell!

ZING!
Quite. It seems Americans like their cars to be a little more tasteful than our Monaro. :D
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a313/chris80857/pimp_my_ride_nebulous_pimped.jpg

[nota]

The same way we loved the GTO? Oh yeah, it didn't sell!

ZING!
Was a bigger seller there than here ;) but in final months Aussie-built GTO outsold US-built Solstice :p


Btw its interesting to compare Holden's much touted & long term investment in their 'billion $ baby' against annual net profit realised by banks & etc

[crisis]

So i guess you can see why when Holden introduce a new model into such turbulent times for the local industry, the average person sees it as a much bigger thing than Toyota introducing both the US and Japanese Camry in a sense, and rebadging one as a new model.

Well both Ford and Holden can not be accused of rebadging other designs as far as Falcon and Commodore go. Even given they may use corporate chassis the overall design is far more original than Toyota and Mitsubishi. A country like Australia exporting cars to the U.S. and even China is no small accomplishment.

[Rockefella]

Was a bigger seller there than here ;) but in final months Aussie-built GTO outsold US-built Solstice :p
Yeah, when they were selling the 1-2 year old models for nearly 25% off MSRP. :D

[nota]

Yeah, when they were selling the 1-2 year old models for nearly 25% off MSRP. :D
At model intro a visiting GM-NA honcho was asked if Monaro was good enough to wear the GTO badge. The candid reply was that he feared the car was too good for the Pontiac badge ..

[Rockefella]

At model intro a visiting GM-NA honcho was asked if Monaro was good enough to wear the GTO badge. The candid reply was that he feared the car was too good for the Pontiac badge ..
I'm not saying it's a bad car, it's a great car as a matter of fact. I'm just showcasing it's poor sales. :)

[Blitz_]

Well poor sales don't mean a bad car, we all know that, and i dont think we should just go out and translate lost sales into a crap product, the monaro was a very good product, just the front end treatment and in my opinion, wrong advertisement and marketing strategy didnt pay off as well as i had expected. Or where my expectations to great?

FPV, yer i know where your coming from with the stereotyping of the big 4 here in Australia, but is that more of a bogans view, because saying AVERAGE, i dont think it would be that biased?

[fpv_gtho]

FPV, yer i know where your coming from with the stereotyping of the big 4 here in Australia, but is that more of a bogans view, because saying AVERAGE, i dont think it would be that biased?

Well its obviously exagerated to make my point, but alot of people are initially told that Holden are Australian, Ford are American, Toyota and Mitsubishi are Japanese. Bogans will get their jolly's off over that and use it as a point to slam the other 3, but most normal people simply dont associate Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi with anything Australian, whilst Holden is ALL things Australian.

[SlickHolden]

Your SS-V is coming to the states as the new Pontiac Grand Prix. ;)
Yes you will love it it's fast straight but gos around corners with grip something you blokes aren't used to with big V8's in the U.S:D.

The same way we loved the GTO? Oh yeah, it didn't sell!

ZING!
Made Holden a great profit:D

I'm not saying it's a bad car, it's a great car as a matter of fact. I'm just showcasing it's poor sales. :)
I'm sure Holden sent all the built over to you guys and they all sold.


I'm going to hire a VE soon not sure what model yet to have a good drive for the weekend in it, I think they only have 2 as a option so unless i get the Omega and then the Calais i think I'll go the Calais:D.
Anyway i love the look of the VE it's really nice to look at interiors are great also just found one little problem many haven't noticed as yet. If you get the chance to see a Calais-V take a feel of the big strip that runs through the dash the strip on the drivers side is not straight and feels as though it might fall off it moves to touch it's really hanging on with chewie gum.
Anyway moving on when you think of the VT and what they done with that it's amazing, Think what they done with that IRS they got it to handle 10 times better then it did with the VT in the VZ. This time they got something that kills that off the mark so i believe they have got a real good base to work on here now.
Aurion even if i dont like FWD cars it's going to be something good, That power and economy cant be sneezed at, That will lift the market also into getting better fuel economy and performance, It's maybe the best looking Toyota that we have ever seen in Camry and Aurion but still they could go a little more out on it they seem to hold back at times and could really give it a shake.

I had a chuckle with Toyota saying they will look at the cylinder difference with the Camry and aurion and not the fuel economy, When it comes to cars they only see size and it's not good on fuel they don't care if it's decent anymore and that is what we need to get out there, Aussie big 6's are very economical for there sizes

[Mr. Jinx]

well, you guys insist on buying the pap produced by the big three, and then along comes a good car which had it's front end raped by pontiac and customers refused to buy it until they pre-riced it from the factory... :D
Indeed.
Because Americans are so worried about bloody image, they forgot to the GTO. Need not worry that it was faster, had better handling and had terrific bang-for-buck in comparison to its competitors. Pontiac had a conservative, well-proportioned, and somewhat classic design, but like most of the things they touch, managed to completely trash it.

As for the situation in Australia, I am a little worried. I was reading today on NINEMSN that Al Queda was asking muslims to cripple the west by taking out oil reserves. That worries me.

The Commodore's front end styling could have evolved more, as the grille alone is hideously VZ like. The other angles are fine though.

Australia is allowed to make as much fuss as they want to on one car. Australia's car market is positively tiny compared to the States, and our major players have very few home-grown cars. Commodore, Statesman, Falcon and Territory. 4 cars - thats it. (380 and Camry have their US origins, so really, they don't count - i guess its debatable though.)

That said, both Ford and Holden do a far better job at making a car considering their limitations. Its going to be amazing when Americans say "all hail the return of the American legend - the Camaro". Just like the GTO, its origins will be completely ignored.


Well both Ford and Holden can not be accused of rebadging other designs as far as Falcon and Commodore go. Even given they may use corporate chassis the overall design is far more original than Toyota and Mitsubishi. A country like Australia exporting cars to the U.S. and even China is no small accomplishment.
Exactly. Holden's previous sucess in the Middle East shouldn't be ignored either. Their cars are probably the only thing keeping some respect in the Chevy sedan range.
The Caprice's 2004 crowning as the Saudi Arabian Car of the Year is also an intersting point. Perhaps they loved the value for money.


I had a chuckle with Toyota saying they will look at the cylinder difference with the Camry and aurion and not the fuel economy, When it comes to cars they only see size and it's not good on fuel they don't care if it's decent anymore and that is what we need to get out there, Aussie big 6's are very economical for there sizes
I SERIOUSLY struggle to believe that the Aurion will have the same fuel economy as a Camry. Then theres the fact that it requires PULP.
Whats the bet it will drive like a grandpa car? To achieve that kind of economy, either Toyota Aus is AMAZINGLY awesome, or the car will have some seriously tall gearing.

[Blitz_]

WEll i think the grille will still remain intact, even with the next generation commodore. its a styling cue that screams holden and is recognizable by Australians.

Its funny how americans react to the products down under, at times its a bit mishap, but on the whole, from what i have read, and who i have spoken to, they are eager for something like a commodor or falcon.

The terrorism factor bothers me as well, but something like that is really out of our hands, and we'll have to rely on the government to really have a good look out for the troublemakers. I still think the Howard government is the only party capable of keeping this country up and alive as well as it has been for the past 10 or so years. Beazely and labor are just useless, watching the parliament hearings is a laugh and a half, the labor party is half assed about its approach and lack the confidence in speaking that the liberals do. (sorry for going into politics there :D )

I sat in the omega the other day, had a nice feel to it, the interior is vastly better than the VZ, feels much fresher, though you know its a commodore instantly.

[fpv_gtho]

Australia is allowed to make as much fuss as they want to on one car. Australia's car market is positively tiny compared to the States, and our major players have very few home-grown cars. Commodore, Statesman, Falcon and Territory. 4 cars - thats it. (380 and Camry have their US origins, so really, they don't count - i guess its debatable though.)

What happened to the Fairlane

[nota]

What happened to the Fairlane
It's faded into invisibility :(

It's a real shame to witness the slow death of Fairlane. In some respects still a better car than Statos and due to their non-profile they can be good buying these days (new & used)

My first 'streetable' car was a hotted up FD Fairlane :)

[Blitz_]

The fairlanes of today simply lack the exterior class that the stato's do, as well as the differentiation from its sister car, in this case the falcon.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

In Classiness stakes, Fairlane > Statesmen.

The Statesmen looks positively Korean. the Falcon a bloated Eurobarge. and it's not a bad thing because of it.

I look foward to picking up a cheap second hand G220 in 5 or 6 years :)

[Blitz_]

Lol! never heard of it that way, I guess im just an individual who prefers the extra class of statesman, exterior anyway. G220 is allrite, had a sit in one a while back, should have gone further with the sport / luxary them though.

[syko]

In Classiness stakes, Fairlane > Statesmen.

Hence all the stetch limos which are LTD or fairlane based.


Aussie big 6's are very economical for there sizes

They can be, except when you don't want them to be:p

[adrenaline]

A combination of high oil prices and large cars coming to the end of their life cycle has slumped the inductry of late.

The Aurion will sell, but not as much as the Commodore or maybe even the Falcon. The 380 and Aurion will be on par in terms of sales IMO. Oil prices are going down and by next year they should slide (They found a new source off the gulf of Mexico which should relieve alot of international pressure). By 2008 the Large car sector should be in revival.

Traditionally, Large cars in Australia are RWD Falcon and Commodore. None of this FWD garbage from japan. And because of that, the average uneducated Australian will dismiss the Japanese to a certain extent. If you want WWIII in the large sector, wait till 2008. Orion will kick Commodore ass (In terms of CAR, maybe not SALES...I hate bogans)

For now though, Commodore will dominate, raising the large sector but until the oil prices calm, it won't be able to revive the sector.

EDIT: When fossil fuels run out, the world will end (not literally, but you get the point)

Disagree with my predictions and you die :)

[fpv_gtho]

If anything i think the Aurion will completely cannibilise 380's sales. Alot of people currently must only be buying them as theyre positively cheap in comparison to the competition. The car itself was on par with the BF as a total package, but Ford have since improved the Falcon and everyone else has new products, which as a package are better than the Falcon as well, leaving the 380 as the budget choice.

As to the Fairlane, i dont think Ford's ready to kill off the nameplate, but it seems theyre seriously considering killing off its LWB basis. It could be thrown a lifeline depending on what Ford plan to do with their wagon for 2008. The current live axle, barge arse wagon is loved by fleets as it neither chews through rear tyres when fully laden, and has function over form in comparison to "sports" wagons and Fords own Territory for load space. They could keep that going as people like Telstra will keep buying them with the LPG engines. The wagons are built with the Fairlane's longer wheelbase, although since BA when the LWB adopted the CB IRS whilst the wagons kept its 1880's live axle/leaf springs, that may not mean anything for similarities sake anymore.

[nota]

Hence all the stetch limos which are LTD or fairlane based.

Guess what vehicle was there to transport Peter Brock from Melbourne Airport today?


Yep a Fairlane hearse ..

[Blitz_]

If anything i think the Aurion will completely cannibilise 380's sales. Alot of people currently must only be buying them as theyre positively cheap in comparison to the competition. The car itself was on par with the BF as a total package, but Ford have since improved the Falcon and everyone else has new products, which as a package are better than the Falcon as well, leaving the 380 as the budget choice.
.

you wouldnt be the only one thinking that. 380 has vanished from radar unfortunately, a valiant effort by mitsubishi, its a good car, and ill give credit where credit is due, unfortunately it just hasn't really lifted off in sales. Even more misfortune when the Aurion is released.


Guess what vehicle was there to transport Peter Brock from Melbourne Airport today?


Yep a Fairlane hearse ..


well i'll be...:eek:


Orion will kick Commodore ass (In terms of CAR, maybe not SALES...I hate bogans)

EDIT: When fossil fuels run out, the world will end (not literally, but you get the point)




not trying to sounds like a man going against my ford stitched heart, but do you really think the Orion will be so much more a better car than the VE? Im expecting it to be a better car, at least a few notches, but im still pondering as to how good it will be?, considering the risks taken by the AU to make a radically designed car.

like i said before, watching the 60minute report, the maximum peak in fuel will really hit home hard, im dreading the day it will be happen, but hopefully by then we have found alternatives that can be readily implemented into everything we use that incorporated fossil fuels.

[SlickHolden]

They can be, except when you don't want them to be:p
Thats what makes them great, Drive nice and normal and you will get better fuel economy then a smaller car, Plant the foot and remember why it's bigger:D


Disliking the word bogan and it's direction at the moment.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Guess what vehicle was there to transport Peter Brock from Melbourne Airport today?


Yep a Fairlane hearse ..

I noticed that - a final Irony?

[adrenaline]

not trying to sounds like a man going against my ford stitched heart, but do you really think the Orion will be so much more a better car than the VE? Im expecting it to be a better car, at least a few notches, but im still pondering as to how good it will be?, considering the risks taken by the AU to make a radically designed car.


The AU was built to a budget and had alot of Yank influence. Ford have learned their lesson, just look at the successful Territory and BA models lauched since then.

I believe it will be considerably better than the VE. it will be smaller, lighter, more than likely with more power which not only means better performance, but better economy (at a time when economy rules) with the lighter chassis. I would assume more standard equipment than the VE, better dynamics (as Ford are benchmarking Orion on VE, and they have 2 years to better the Commodore) and if J Mays is telling the truth, we can expect a more tasteful design incorporating Iosis/ maybe Fusion. Combine this with more engineering hours going into the LPG development.

I have my own theory that Holden are inexperienced when it comes to engineering from scratch. The fact that the Commodore only marginally beat the BF at base level supports my theory.

[fpv_gtho]

Dont hedge your bets on Orion being smaller and lighter than VE. If it is, it may only be by a few kilo's and a few mm's as the basic architecture will share ALOT with BA and Territory still. Ford did initially want to make Orion smaller and lighter as they felt they needed to in order to secure local production, as they didnt feel cars the size of the BF and now VE, would have a strong future locally in the face of +$1/L petrol. Since then, theyve had to rationalise expenditure for Orion which could have focused its development more towards refinement of current BF and Territory modules for the front and rear end, although Ford have been saying now they feel theyre in a much better position than Holden as far as economy goes for each new model, so they could still have a product which winds back the weight figures noticeably, and also isnt as physically large.

[Blitz_]

Incorporating the fusion and Orion, well an obvious link to the both is the three chrome bars that run across the grille, a big change i think from the open grilles of the BA, AU, EL etc etc. So im not sure if their willing to change that? Because the VE has a more sports like stance and character to it, the Orion will no doubt be heavily influenced by the two aforementioned cars.

[fpv_gtho]

Well theyre restricted in going with a grille inline with what the Fusion and the 427 concept has as the cars would simply overheat way too often. The Iosis and Territory however have very similar grille's, in that theyve still got the bars but theyre also still open.

[SlickHolden]

One thing for sure is the VE in 08 won't be what it is today, This is what i think, Holden will get the rest of the cars ready Ute waggon etc and sit on the Commodore, In 2 years time in the release of the orion they will bring on a Direct injection V6 Diesel engine and maybe smaller capacity engine with a V6 6 speed Auto. Rumours have the Direct injection running @ 215-220kw 360Nm with 6 speed auto running well under Aurion economy figures. Plus some dude mentioned something about weight saving parts on the suspension for VE down the track that might cut 50-100kg off, But will probably only be used with high spec cars and sports.

Will 08 Falcon be better then the VE? I think so but not by the margin many predict, For these reason, The Blade control IRS in it's 6th year of use will be tweaked and refined and as fpv-gtho said the territory front steering will be used also. When you think about handling it's going to be old faithful tried and true blue as good as they come it wont handle like a BF but it will still share some of it's handling. It's the body where the biggest gain for the falcon will come, They will be able to stick in a microwave and all the goodies. Like a chicken with full trimmings. Haven't herd much on the engines as yet but someone said something about a smaller capacity engine 3.6lt still with big power and torque and they believe it will run even better. And be much lighter.
So when they get 08 Falcon and 08 Commodore together they will be like a reversal of the BF VE. Close because both for the first time will be closer on paper then ever before, Both with World class IRS's (Can we class Holden's IRS world Class yet???) Both with all the safety features available to use and modern tuff body's.

[crisis]

In Classiness stakes, Fairlane > Statesmen.

The Statesmen looks positively Korean. the Falcon a bloated Eurobarge. and it's not a bad thing because of it.

I look foward to picking up a cheap second hand G220 in 5 or 6 years :)
It’s all pretty subjective. I think Holden have aimed at a more sporty look therefore it may explain why some may find it less classy. Ford have been ultra conservative with all BA models after the AU clusterf@$%.

[crisis]

The Aurion will sell, but not as much as the Commodore or maybe even the Falcon. The 380 and Aurion will be on par in terms of sales IMO
The Aurion will do no more or less than the V6 Camry has or did. Call it what you want. Buy a 380 now. They are likely to be collector’s items by the end of the year.




By 2008 the Large car sector should be in revival.
Oh and bad luck to everyone who spent$3000 on gas conversions. Got fuel this morning for $1.10 a litre.
Remember kids the cost of retrieving oil form the ground has not increased. There is plenty around too. The price rise is a manipulated contrivance. Someone somewhere has pushed the down button and things are getting better.




Traditionally, Large cars in Australia are RWD Falcon and Commodore. None of this FWD garbage from japan. And because of that, the average uneducated Australian will dismiss the Japanese to a certain extent. If you want WWIII in the large sector, wait till 2008. Orion will kick Commodore ass (In terms of CAR, maybe not SALES...I hate bogans)

For now though, Commodore will dominate, raising the large sector but until the oil prices calm, it won't be able to revive the sector.

EDIT: When fossil fuels run out, the world will end (not literally, but you get the point)

Disagree with my predictions and you die :)
Kill me. Not much is going to change while Ford and Holden produce big, good quality, good value cars. There is no real need to buy anything else other than not wanting a Commodore of Falcon (reverse snobbery) or honestly not liking the styling or size. No car, Commodore, Falcon, Aurion, 380 etc is that far worse or better than the other. They are all good. People don’t buy the “best” and the case for being the “best” can be made for most of them.

[fpv_gtho]

One thing for sure is the VE in 08 won't be what it is today, This is what i think, Holden will get the rest of the cars ready Ute waggon etc and sit on the Commodore, In 2 years time in the release of the orion they will bring on a Direct injection V6 Diesel engine and maybe smaller capacity engine with a V6 6 speed Auto. Rumours have the Direct injection running @ 215-220kw 360Nm with 6 speed auto running well under Aurion economy figures. Plus some dude mentioned something about weight saving parts on the suspension for VE down the track that might cut 50-100kg off, But will probably only be used with high spec cars and sports.

Will 08 Falcon be better then the VE? I think so but not by the margin many predict, For these reason, The Blade control IRS in it's 6th year of use will be tweaked and refined and as fpv-gtho said the territory front steering will be used also. When you think about handling it's going to be old faithful tried and true blue as good as they come it wont handle like a BF but it will still share some of it's handling. It's the body where the biggest gain for the falcon will come, They will be able to stick in a microwave and all the goodies. Like a chicken with full trimmings. Haven't herd much on the engines as yet but someone said something about a smaller capacity engine 3.6lt still with big power and torque and they believe it will run even better. And be much lighter.
So when they get 08 Falcon and 08 Commodore together they will be like a reversal of the BF VE. Close because both for the first time will be closer on paper then ever before, Both with World class IRS's (Can we class Holden's IRS world Class yet???) Both with all the safety features available to use and modern tuff body's.

Holden's really only got the driveline where they can try and make further significant gains though. The rest of the car is locked in for at least 4 more years before Holden will be able to affordably make large revisions.

[adrenaline]

The Aurion will do no more or less than the V6 Camry has or did. Call it what you want. Buy a 380 now. They are likely to be collector’s items by the end of the year.

The Aurion is different. This time Toyota are aiming directly at the Falcon and Commodore with their V6 Camry....err Aurion.

The 380 won't be a collectors item to anyone, apparently Mitsu have secured an export deal to keep volume alive.




Oh and bad luck to everyone who spent$3000 on gas conversions. Got fuel this morning for $1.10 a litre.
Remember kids the cost of retrieving oil form the ground has not increased. There is plenty around too. The price rise is a manipulated contrivance. Someone somewhere has pushed the down button and things are getting better.


Ever thought about looking at history? Why was there a draught of large performance cars in the 70s? There was a fuel crisis, much like what we are experiencing. The prices fell, inevitably. These things have, and will repeat themselves.



Kill me. Not much is going to change while Ford and Holden produce big, good quality, good value cars. There is no real need to buy anything else other than not wanting a Commodore of Falcon (reverse snobbery) or honestly not liking the styling or size. No car, Commodore, Falcon, Aurion, 380 etc is that far worse or better than the other. They are all good. People don’t buy the “best” and the case for being the “best” can be made for most of them.

At the minute, it's not about the cars they produce. It's about the price of oil that's affecting the auto industry. I'm betting that by 2008 the price of oil will stabilise, as it has with past instances. And if you want to die, give me a call and I can arrange :D

[Blitz_]

whats your number?

[adrenaline]

83407933 -- Seriously call that number.
Pizza Haven, Pizza Haven Dial-A-Pizza and the Pizza Haven logos are registered trade marks of Glev. These trade marks are not to be used in connection with any other product or service, in any manner that is likely to cause confusion among customers, or in any manner that disparages or discredits Glev. All other trade marks, product names, company names, signs and logos appearing on the site are the property of their respective owners.

[SlickHolden]

Holden's really only got the driveline where they can try and make further significant gains though. The rest of the car is locked in for at least 4 more years before Holden will be able to affordably make large revisions.
Read in motor today at it's official now that holden will have a life cycle on body's of 6 years now. Basic architecture will underpin it for atleast 15 years.
So this might not bring any or very minor change to the look of the car over 6 years?.

[fpv_gtho]

Read in motor today at it's official now that holden will have a life cycle on body's of 6 years now. Basic architecture will underpin it for atleast 15 years.
So this might not bring any or very minor change to the look of the car over 6 years?.

Sounds different like that to how Holden originally spelled it out. Now its more like theyre stretching out the half life of the chassis by 2 years but giving it more significant upgrades as a result. That would put a rebodied VE almost inline with the 4 year update for Orion

[Blitz_]

83407933 -- Seriously call that number.
Pizza Haven, Pizza Haven Dial-A-Pizza and the Pizza Haven logos are registered trade marks of Glev. These trade marks are not to be used in connection with any other product or service, in any manner that is likely to cause confusion among customers, or in any manner that disparages or discredits Glev. All other trade marks, product names, company names, signs and logos appearing on the site are the property of their respective owners.


Oh im sorry Adrenaline, im not much into pizza right now :D


6 years? Thought it was 4 like fpv had pointed out. This means perhaps more series 1, 2, upgraded etc etc. in the lifespan of a particular model doesnt it. Intersesting considering the release date of the Orion and the approach Ford take with upgrades.

[adrenaline]

I just saw on the news that Mitsu has an official deal to export 20,000 380s as protons. The head of Mitsu Motors said that the Adelaide plant is not going anywhere.

[fpv_gtho]

Im pretty sure that deal with Proton though is just for knock down kits, not complete cars

[SlickHolden]

Sounds different like that to how Holden originally spelled it out. Now its more like theyre stretching out the half life of the chassis by 2 years but giving it more significant upgrades as a result. That would put a rebodied VE almost inline with the 4 year update for Orion
So no more VT into VZ. Don't the yanks do that upgrade the looks but still have basically the same underpinnings just slightly modified to make it feel new as much as it looks new but not really spending the big dollars out like the VE?.

[crisis]

The Aurion is different. This time Toyota are aiming directly at the Falcon and Commodore with their V6 Camry....err Aurion.
And last time they were aiming at what with their Avalon?




Ever thought about looking at history? Why was there a draught of large performance cars in the 70s? There was a fuel crisis, much like what we are experiencing. The prices fell, inevitably. These things have, and will repeat themselves.
Yes, that is what I mean.



At the minute, it's not about the cars they produce. It's about the price of oil that's affecting the auto industry. I'm betting that by 2008 the price of oil will stabilise, as it has with past instances. And if you want to die, give me a call and I can arrange :D
Agreed. However I am betting it will never stabilise like it never has. It will fluctuate with the whims and wishes of OPEC and other powerful influences. And the public will respond the same way most times, as we must.

[fpv_gtho]

So no more VT into VZ. Don't the yanks do that upgrade the looks but still have basically the same underpinnings just slightly modified to make it feel new as much as it looks new but not really spending the big dollars out like the VE?.

I think thats what they do basically, theres some "new" Chev's etc in the US that are still on some pretty old architecture.

[SlickHolden]

I think thats what they do basically, theres some "new" Chev's etc in the US that are still on some pretty old architecture.
It's risky a touch I'm not sure what i prefer. But time will tell how it goes.

[fpv_gtho]

Well theres nothing wrong with it when you think about it. The cars now got multi link IRS and a fairly decent front end, that should take a while to go out of date. The pushing issue may be if Holden feel pressure to go to a double wishbone front setup or something like that.

Cars like the Astra though share basically the same platform between the old and new model, the big giveaway there is a lack of IRS for the new Astra whilst the Focus has had CB IRS since its inception in 1999 for example.

[SlickHolden]

Well theres nothing wrong with it when you think about it. The cars now got multi link IRS and a fairly decent front end, that should take a while to go out of date. The pushing issue may be if Holden feel pressure to go to a double wishbone front setup or something like that.

Cars like the Astra though share basically the same platform between the old and new model, the big giveaway there is a lack of IRS for the new Astra whilst the Focus has had CB IRS since its inception in 1999 for example.
Yeah i was thinking that the old Astra and new seemed to similar in look and even in test's done pretty much the same as the old.

[adrenaline]

And last time they were aiming at what with their Avalon?

The Avalon was never heavily advertised as an "Aussie 6". The Avalon was aiming for the large sector, but it was never taken seriously as a Falcon/ Commodore alternative.

Toyota set high sales targets just before they launched the first Avalon. It sold well initially but then died slowly. It's a bit of a shame really.

[adrenaline]

I think thats what they do basically, theres some "new" Chev's etc in the US that are still on some pretty old architecture.

Ford is terrible with refreshing their large architectures. Whilst GM completely remaster the Escalade/ Yukon etc, Ford decides to give it's big trucks a facelift with a shitload of new mechanics/ technology, but the same architecture and body!! It's so irritating...

[crisis]

The Avalon was never heavily advertised as an "Aussie 6". The Avalon was aiming for the large sector, but it was never taken seriously as a Falcon/ Commodore alternative.

Toyota set high sales targets just before they launched the first Avalon. It sold well initially but then died slowly. It's a bit of a shame really.

It was advertised by Dame Edna as an alternative to Commodore and Falcon.
Interesting article-



Toyota Avalon


David Morley, 28/11/05
DAVID MORLEY checks out the perfect car for those who don't really dig cars.

A bland but bargain buy

Australian manufacturers have played the name game for many years; Mitsubishi tried giving its V6 Magna a lift by calling it a Verada (before reverting to Magna V6), and Toyota's V6-powered Camrys were once badged as Vientas.
It didn't seem to make much difference, even though both makers continued to fiddle with the concept.
To say the Avalon has been a disappointment locally is probably not labouring the point. It failed to do what Toyota expected of it, leaving most buyers choosing a Camry V6 when the Melbourne-based company would have preferred they step up to the Avalon.
The main reason the Avalon failed to set the market alight was because it was just so bland. It failed to deliver anything resembling real driving enjoyment and its appearance was quite plain.
But the driveline was a proven product, the build quality was good, the Avalon was bought by conservative folk, and the lack of market recognition hasn't affected resale values.
The car is well manufactured, with good shut lines and panel fit and excellent paint quality. The same goes for the interior.
All up, the Avalon emerges as the perfect car for non-car people.

The competition

Mitsubishi's Magna/Verada twins are the most likely suspects from a competition point of view. Unfortunately for the Mitsubishis, they lack the Avalon's Toyota-ness (another way of saying "no worries" and "reliable"). Both Holden's Commodore and Ford's Falcon are viable alternatives too, but lack the Avalon's refinement.


"All up, the Avalon emerges as the perfect car for non-car people."

Probably bests sums up Magnas, 380s, Camrys as well. No real emotional involvement and I don’t see how they can generate it in that particular market.

[SlickHolden]

The Avalon had a good engine and tranny was OK for it. It was the surrounds:p It speed up with decent revs just don't rely on them shitty brakes with ABS:D Hit a bump and launch to space and back in 12 days once the soft suspension came back down:D.

[fpv_gtho]

Well it was a decent engine for a 3L, but for something targeted at Falcon and Commodore buyers, even the 3.3 out of the Kluger wouldve been better as buyers wouldve been looking for the similar low down torque feel to the engine.

Those Toyota V6's are good, but only when theyre allowed to rev.

[SlickHolden]

I was surprised at how good the engine felt but pulling 2nd gear slow until it's about 4000rpm then belting to over 6000rpm is way to late.

There is a Toyota Camry V6 that zips around here everyday and it goes good sounds nice to.

Maybe thats the biggest weakness they have it's high revs builds power when we would like it on tap almost, But that can make them feel nice and easy to drive day 2 day with no effort. But knowing Aussie blokes and many women you can't help but give it some peddle every now and then poping around a corner overtaking:D.

[fpv_gtho]

VVT usually fixes the problem for low end torque, so they may have already gotten a decent engine. Ive only driven the non-VVT 3L, the new ones got both VVT and 0.5L more capacity.

[crisis]

On the way to work today, I head on the radio that they are expecting fuel prices to possible drop to around $1.00 around the early stages of next year, a good sign for motorists in general, and even more so for the sales of the commodore, falcon, the new Aurion and any large car that is percieved to be a fuel guzzler.


Looks like you may be on the money. Fuel in Adelaide on Friday (normally when the discounts are off) is around $1.08 per litre. Down from $1.45 a few months back. Next week should be interesting. New SSV is looking sweeter all the time.
And Diesel is around 20c a litre more making the premium outlay less attractive. And diesel never fluctuates much so you are stuck with the price no matter.

[charged]

Crisis wrote

New SSV is looking sweeter all the time.
And Diesel is around 20c a litre more making the premium outlay less attractive. And diesel never fluctuates much so you are stuck with the price no matter.


Those ssv or even the ss look the goods thats for sure:D .The Omegas leave me a little cold but most base models do as well.

Its got me, how diesel is always dearer then petrol, when supposedly its cheaper to refine I think?:confused:

Brother bought a runout prado with the diesel, nice unit but a bit gutless and he averages about 11l/100, Ive got the 3.4 petrol in the surf and average about 12.5/100, but with the diesel being nearly 20% dearer mines actually cheaper to run

[SlickHolden]

We have had a consistent $1.10-$1.17 for weeks and weeks, But that consistency has meant we haven't got it down low nearer the 99c:(. But i have ran 3 tanks of 98 octane and haven't paid more then $1.21 P/L. 3 tanks in 6 weeks.