First American V12 supercar: Brammo Rogue GT

[sunk]

Another Bugatti competitor:
http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/6177/

10-litre V12,
850bhp and 737 lbs-ft of torque.
Weight of 2899 lbs
Top speed in the 225-230 mph range

[acemotorsport]

looks good from the pics of the sketches

[Coventrysucks]

www.brammo.com

Might look good if this was 1996, and not 2006, and their names are crap, and they aren't GTs either.

Very interesting, though, that they appear to be planning a car powered by the RST V8 - 400bhp from 2.0-litres at 10-12,000rpm and it weighs 74 kg.

Much better idea than a 230kg, 10-litre V12.

You could fit two RST engines in there instead, get your 800bhp and still save 90kg

[kigango123]

www.brammo.com

Might look good if this was 1996, and not 2006, and their names are crap, and they aren't GTs either.

Very interesting, though, that they appear to be planning a car powered by the RST V8 - 400bhp from 2.0-litres at 10-12,000rpm and it weighs 74 kg.

Much better idea than a 230kg, 10-litre V12.

You could fit two RST engines in there instead, get your 800bhp and still save 90kg

i kinda agree, this thing is bound to be another unaffordable behemoth,

[drakkie]

Worst of all, its american. And the Americans never build a properly fast car in history !!! :D

[Coventrysucks]

Worst of all, its american. And the Americans never build a properly fast car in history !!! :D

Well, aside from the fast ones...

[baddabang]

Worst of all, its american. And the Americans never build a properly fast car in history !!! :D

I think I can name a few, but I dont feel like dishing out some supporting member pwnage. ;)

[kigango123]

Well, aside from the fast ones...

like which ones,
MMMMMMM............
i cant think of any right now but i will contact you next year

[P3RG4R3C]

Now this MIGHT be a bit offtopic but why doesn't Drakkie have the Supporting member inscription and his username written in bold yet he does have the 200x90 avatar?

[speednine]

Corvette, GT40, Daytona coupe.

[mclaren_crazy]

sallen s7, or s7 tt, I dont see how those arent fast

[kingofthering]

like which ones,
MMMMMMM............
i cant think of any right now but i will contact you next year
there's a car called the Ford GT, you may have heard of it.

[Souljah]

think what is ment is that the only go fast in a straight line...not around a track.... But there is a few that can......but not as long as they have leafsprings at the back...:D

[Quiggs]

think what is ment is that the only go fast in a straight line...not around a track.... But there is a few that can......but not as long as they have leafsprings at the back...:D
Please... The Corvette's transverse leafspring has almost nothing in common with the leafsprings found on other applications.

[Mr.Tiv]

When have the americans made a car that has both impresive performance and quality? The Corvette is not that great it performs but isn't built to last, and every good car Ford has made has been British.

[Ferrari p4\5]

i know little about this car , but the ford GT is a great one ,,,,
Americans can make super cars indeed .

[digitalcraft]

He's just jealous... of something or other.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps.shtml

FordGT beats most ferraris(except the enzo), porsches(except the carrera GT), lamborghinis(ALL) BMWs(ALL), etc. The Corvette Z06 beats a lot too.

They may not be at the top, but there's TONS of cars under them.

In my book, that meets the requirements of the definition of 'fast' no matter how you try to twist it.

I don't see any Saleen nor Panoz on this list either, I wonder where they'd rate.

Or Vector :O

PS. The ford Focus ST beat the Vanquish, lotus elise, and clio v6, the RS beat more :P

The fastest Japanese car (down the list a bit) is the Mitsubishi Evo FQ 400. Gawd I want one @.@


p.s. here's a page of some nice american cars: http://www.pistonheads.com/fastcars/us-supercars.htm

[Mr.Tiv]

PS. The ford Focus ST beat the Vanquish, lotus elise, and clio v6, the RS beat more :P
And it is British. If it is a Brit Ford it isn't considered American. Yes the Vette is good, it isn't fantastic.

[clutch-monkey]

When have the americans made a car that has both impresive performance and quality? The Corvette is not that great it performs but isn't built to last, and every good car Ford has made has been British.
liar. and after seeing british build quality you have the audacity to say american cars aren't made to last...

[F1_Master]

He's just jealous... of something or other.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps.shtml

FordGT beats most ferraris(except the enzo), porsches(except the carrera GT), lamborghinis(ALL) BMWs(ALL), etc. The Corvette Z06 beats a lot too.

They may not be at the top, but there's TONS of cars under them.

In my book, that meets the requirements of the definition of 'fast' no matter how you try to twist it.

I don't see any Saleen nor Panoz on this list either, I wonder where they'd rate.

Or Vector :O

PS. The ford Focus ST beat the Vanquish, lotus elise, and clio v6, the RS beat more :P

The fastest Japanese car (down the list a bit) is the Mitsubishi Evo FQ 400. Gawd I want one @.@


p.s. here's a page of some nice american cars: http://www.pistonheads.com/fastcars/us-supercars.htm
The Ford GT has never set faster lap times than a LP640.
A Ford GT has never beaten a GT2 Porsche either, nor has it beaten a 997 Turbo.

The problem with using Top Gear does not justify comparisons, even more for the fact that the show likes to show humor, and sometimes favoritism.

Your 2nd problem is that your link does NOT include newer cars from manufacturers. The Murcielago has had small updates since then. The LP640 is not listed. The Gallardo SE with a 520Bhp V10 is not listed. The Porsche GT2 996 is not listed. The 997 Turbo is not listed. The Ferrari F430 nor Porsche 997 GT3 is not listed. The GT has been outdone by these vehicles. Even the Corvette Z06 C6 which is also NOT listed has been on dead par, if not better.

Top Gear does not show all the cars competitors. Being so, it's very hard to use it as a source.

[Coventrysucks]

Please... The Corvette's transverse leafspring has almost nothing in common with the leafsprings found on other applications.

If they were regular helix springs, then I would agree that they have nothing in common with any other leafspring.

However; the leafsprings in the Corvette share quite a lot of commonality with other leafsprings by vertue of the fact that they are leafsprings.


And it is British. If it is a Brit Ford it isn't considered American. Yes the Vette is good, it isn't fantastic.

AFAIK the Focus ST is primarily German, as are most European Ford products.

America does produce some good sports and supercars from time to time.

Before they lost me with this turbocharging nonsense, Saleen's S7 had proven itself to be an extremely capable endurance racer, as has the Mosler MT900, and the Ford GT would be a very, very good car, had it not been consumed by Ford USA's obsession with trotting out endless hackneyed retro-gibberish.

America can definately produce a suitable engine for a supercar, and the handling seems to be improving with each new car that appears.

The biggest obstacles to America becoming a true rival to the European supercar manufacturers remain: naming & styling.

"Brammo Rogue GT" sounds like something you buy a 5 year old to go with his Action Man, not an exotic, world beating supercar.

And to reiterate my above post - the Pagani Zondas of this world look like they are from 2016, why does the Rambo Brogue GT look like it is from 1996?

[digitalcraft]

The Ford GT has never set faster lap times than a LP640.
A Ford GT has never beaten a GT2 Porsche either, nor has it beaten a 997 Turbo.

The problem with using Top Gear does not justify comparisons, even more for the fact that the show likes to show humor, and sometimes favoritism.

Your 2nd problem is that your link does NOT include newer cars from manufacturers. The Murcielago has had small updates since then. The LP640 is not listed. The Gallardo SE with a 520Bhp V10 is not listed. The Porsche GT2 996 is not listed. The 997 Turbo is not listed. The Ferrari F430 nor Porsche 997 GT3 is not listed. The GT has been outdone by these vehicles. Even the Corvette Z06 C6 which is also NOT listed has been on dead par, if not better.

Top Gear does not show all the cars competitors. Being so, it's very hard to use it as a source.


You're right that those cars weren't raced, but there are other very fast american cars that weren't either. I didn't say that these cars were the fastest in the world, I said they were fast. I didn't know that american cars had to beat EVERY OTHER CAR IN THE WORLD to be considered fast :P

I'm just pointing out, americans can make some very nice cars.

[digitalcraft]

Panoz is probably my favorite american car company as far as styling goes.

Panoze Esperante sounds like a nice name too.

They won the 12 hours of GT2 at sebring and 24 hours le mans GT2 too. I have to say they're not bad.

[Slicks]

think what is ment is that the only go fast in a straight line...not around a track.... But there is a few that can......but not as long as they have leafsprings at the back...:D
Do you read what you write?

[Slicks]

When have the americans made a car that has both impresive performance and quality? The Corvette is not that great it performs but isn't built to last, and every good car Ford has made has been British.
Were you born stupid or did you just get dropped a lot?

[speednine]

When have the americans made a car that has both impresive performance and quality? The Corvette is not that great it performs but isn't built to last, and every good car Ford has made has been British.


Oh wow, since when did quality become a factor in this discussion? IIRC it was about american cars performance.

[speednine]

liar. and after seeing british build quality you have the audacity to say american cars aren't made to last...


Lmfao! Good call.

[drakkie]

wel mclaren,kingofthering and others, GET DOWN TO EARTH. The car you mention are quick ,not fast, in a straight line but handle like a lorry.

As mentioned every fast Ford was built in Britain,well thats only one,the original GT40.The `new´ GT is nowhere near a fast car nowadays.

I´m sorry but it is a fact.Offcourse there are some exceptions,sure, but they are very rare ones that noone can afford and everyone dreams about.

Cars like the Lotus´s are nowhere near to be found in the US.

[Rockefella]

As mentioned every fast Ford was built in Britain,well thats only one,the original GT40.The `new´ GT is nowhere near a fast car nowadays.
200+ mph isn't fast? I'm not an American car fan, but calling a Ford GT 'not fast' is rather ludicrous. The specs of the Ford GT are almost identical to that of the F430.. the only edge for the Ferrari being the handling/speeds around a circuit.

[digitalcraft]

drakkie, what are you TALKING about @.@


I'm rather confused. The ford GT is faster than the old ford GT 40.


And I see loti very often in Portland Oregon actually.

[Guest]

drakkie, what are you TALKING about @.@


I'm rather confused. The ford GT is faster than the old ford GT 40.


And I see loti very often in Portland Oregon actually.what he means is if you look at them in their age, the GT40 went to LeMans and wiped the FLOOR with Ferrari's for several years, whereas the GT may be quick, but it is no-where near as quick compared to its competiton as the old GT40 was

[Slicks]

wel mclaren,kingofthering and others, GET DOWN TO EARTH. The car you mention are quick ,not fast, in a straight line but handle like a lorry.

As mentioned every fast Ford was built in Britain,well thats only one,the original GT40.The `new´ GT is nowhere near a fast car nowadays.

I´m sorry but it is a fact.Offcourse there are some exceptions,sure, but they are very rare ones that noone can afford and everyone dreams about.

Cars like the Lotus´s are nowhere near to be found in the US.
Jesus tap dancing christ....
Youve never even been in an American car...

[Coventrysucks]

wel mclaren,kingofthering and others, GET DOWN TO EARTH. The car you mention are quick ,not fast, in a straight line but handle like a lorry.

So how do you account for cars like the Saleen S7R or Mosler MT900R being so successful around circuits with corners?


what he means is if you look at them in their age, the GT40 went to LeMans and wiped the FLOOR with Ferrari's for several years, whereas the GT may be quick, but it is no-where near as quick compared to its competiton as the old GT40 was

The GT40 was supposed to be a Ferrari beating race car, and after a few years of tweaking, it eventually did that.

The GT was never supposed to be a competitor to any other company or car in that sense, therefore criticising it for not doing so makes no sense.

[Mr.Tiv]

There is a difference between a poor comparison and one that makes no sense.

[digitalcraft]

Maybe you should compare the GT 40 to the GT LM race car :P

[Mr.Tiv]

Maybe you should compare the GT 40 to the GT LM race car :P
Do you have the specs on that?

[F1_Master]

wel mclaren,kingofthering and others, GET DOWN TO EARTH. The car you mention are quick ,not fast, in a straight line but handle like a lorry.

As mentioned every fast Ford was built in Britain,well thats only one,the original GT40.The `new´ GT is nowhere near a fast car nowadays.

I´m sorry but it is a fact.Offcourse there are some exceptions,sure, but they are very rare ones that noone can afford and everyone dreams about.

Cars like the Lotus´s are nowhere near to be found in the US.
So true drakkie. Because everyone knows the S7Rs sucked ass when they entered the FIA GT, and everyone knows the Vipers don't hold the record for most wins per car in the series. :rolleyes:

For those who are going to be quick to call me a liar, let's take a look at how "Americans cars handle like a lorry, and are only quick."
Let's start with the great American car, the Viper.

LeMans, 1998. The Vipers set out in GT2 to only finish becoming the first and second American cars in 3 decades to win in their class. The Viper also become the first production-based American car in the winner's circle.

FIA GT, the Vipers would go on to take 5 title between 1997 and 2002.

[Juggs]

When have the americans made a car that has both impresive performance and quality? The Corvette is not that great it performs but isn't built to last, and every good car Ford has made has been British.

please explain how the corvette is not built to last :rolleyes:

[speednine]

Jesus tap dancing christ....
Youve never even been in an American car...

LMFAO! Your responses are witty and give me a good laugh.;)

[Mr.Tiv]

please explain how the corvette is not built to last :rolleyes:
Other than they don't age well, and, judging by a good friend of mines expirience, cost a lot repair properly. They are made to keep the price low while retaining performance, so quality gets the axe.

[Slicks]

Other than they don't age well, and, judging by a good friend of mines expirience, cost a lot repair properly. They are made to keep the price low while retaining performance, so quality gets the axe.
Such irony coming from the kid with a british car in his avatar.
Dont age well? Explain?
Cost of repair (depending on what exatly is damaged) is usually no greater than your average car. Having the drivetrain of a Corvette in my car, I can tell you from experience that its problem free. I personally know a handful of vette owners(of various years), all of which have no problems.
Son, there is more to keeping price low than to just "axe the quality." The engine is mass produced (although handbuilt) and relatively cheap. The transmission, which I must add is very stout, is also a very mass produced item (and not by GM). The chassis is extremely stiff, and created using waterpressure (and is now shared with the XLR, cutting the price down even more, given the greater production). The car is hand assembled in only one plant. Its cheaper than cars like Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches ect. because for starters look at the materials they are using. Those companies outsource much less than GM, and do not produce as many cars, or have available crate engines etc.

[Rockefella]

Such irony coming from the kid with a british car in his avatar.
Dont age well? Explain?
Cost of repair (depending on what exatly is damaged) is usually no greater than your average car. Having the drivetrain of a Corvette in my car, I can tell you from experience that its problem free. I personally know a handful of vette owners(of various years), all of which have no problems.
Son, there is more to keeping price low than to just "axe the quality." The engine is mass produced (although handbuilt) and relatively cheap. The transmission, which I must add is very stout, is also a very mass produced item (and not by GM). The chassis is extremely stiff, and created using waterpressure (and is now shared with the XLR, cutting the price down even more, given the greater production). The car is hand assembled in only one plant. Its cheaper than cars like Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches ect. because for starters look at the materials they are using. Those companies outsource much less than GM, and do not produce as many cars, or have available crate engines etc.
Sounds about right with me..

From what I've seen, experienced, and heard, C5 and C6 Generation corvettes have been doing quite well in the reliability and upkeep departments. I think the whole 'crap quality' aura hanging over the Corvette is from the C3 and C4 generations, mainly the C4 though.

[Mr.Tiv]

C3 C4 are the only generations I or anyone I associate with have had much experience with. They suck. They don't last, and I never said British cars did. I am not saying the quality coming out of blackpool is better; it isn't. I am saying that the Corvette is overhyped. It sipmly isn't as good as other things in its performance range, but performs far better than anything it's price range-it is praised because it has no direct competition.

[rev440]

wel mclaren,kingofthering and others, GET DOWN TO EARTH. The car you mention are quick ,not fast, in a straight line but handle like a lorry.

As mentioned every fast Ford was built in Britain,well thats only one,the original GT40.The `new´ GT is nowhere near a fast car nowadays.

I´m sorry but it is a fact.Offcourse there are some exceptions,sure, but they are very rare ones that noone can afford and everyone dreams about.

Cars like the Lotus´s are nowhere near to be found in the US.

Its obvious youve never been to the US or rode in a FGT its faster then the Ferrari 430 and the Lambo Gallardo.. There are quite a few lotus here. How isnt the GT a fast car? If you could share what your smoking Id apreciate it.


C3 C4 are the only generations I or anyone I associate with have had much experience with. They suck. They don't last, and I never said British cars did. I am not saying the quality coming out of blackpool is better; it isn't. I am saying that the Corvette is overhyped. It sipmly isn't as good as other things in its performance range, but performs far better than anything it's price range-it is praised because it has no direct competition.

The Corvette Z06 is faster then the Gallardo and the 430 on any track and there both in its performance range. What sports car does last these days? Ive seen many 100k mile C5 corvettes running strong. The LS1 is a well built long lasting engine. Read up before you post again. As slicks said the T-56 is a pretty nice trans and so is the old 4 speed auto.


Other than they don't age well, and, judging by a good friend of mines expirience, cost a lot repair properly. They are made to keep the price low while retaining performance, so quality gets the axe.
You judge one car when theres millions out there. That arent that bad to fix either.

[Slicks]

C3 C4 are the only generations I or anyone I associate with have had much experience with. They suck. They don't last, and I never said British cars did. I am not saying the quality coming out of blackpool is better; it isn't. I am saying that the Corvette is overhyped. It sipmly isn't as good as other things in its performance range, but performs far better than anything it's price range-it is praised because it has no direct competition.
I have no experience with stock C3s (always have swapped 454s or 427s with lots of mods) but I do with LT1 C4s. They are meh quality wise but still reliable and solid vehicles.
If youve been in a C5, or better yet a C5 Z06 you wouldnt be calling it overhyped, but rather underrated. The C4 and C5 are like a complete world apart, very different cars. The C5 reminds me of a bigger Miata with balls.
It isnt "as good" as other things in its performance range because everything in its performance range is at least double in price (if you can get it for the MSRP). Then consider matainence of cars like Porsche, Ferrari etc. A brake job alone is worth a new car.
The Corvette is praised because of what it can do. $50,000 gets you a Porsche eating car with nav, all the creature comforts you want and a one of a kind heads up display. More luggage room than any other sports car in its class. A car that can be easily driven daily, and can average 25-30mpg if you dont drive like a jackass, but open it up and its like a lesbian sex orgy in your ears with almost telepathic throttle response.

[F1_Master]

The Corvette Z06 is faster then the Gallardo and the 430 on any track and there both in its performance range. What sports car does last these days? Ive seen many 100k mile C5 corvettes running strong. The LS1 is a well built long lasting engine. Read up before you post again. As slicks said the T-56 is a pretty nice trans and so is the old 4 speed auto.

No it isn't. I've seen tons of reviews that give each EQUAL stats. The Z06 is great, but the reviews I've read have given credit to Ferrari for quality and track capabilities.

[Slicks]

No it isn't. I've seen tons of reviews that give each EQUAL stats. The Z06 is great, but the reviews I've read have given credit to Ferrari for quality and track capabilities.
When the F430 is equiped with street tires, the Z06 will walk it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11326/2006-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2006-ferrari-f430-vs-2007-porsche-911-turbo.html
And yes, this is a prime example, they give it to the Ferrari for feel and quality, as they should being its $100,000 more expencive than the Z06.

[F1_Master]

You posted 1 magazine however. Car and Driver does not justify 1 comparison. Other European magazines have shown opposite results.

[rev440]

Ive seen modded C5's that put down well over 400rwhp still get over 30mpg. If you post on LS1tech alghnC5 gets 32mpg and his car puts down 475rwhp.

[F1_Master]

Ive seen modded C5's that put down well over 400rwhp still get over 30mpg. If you post on LS1tech alghnC5 gets 32mpg and his car puts down 475rwhp.
I was talking about the C6 Z06 against the F430, not how much mileage a modified Corvette is getting.

[Egg Nog]

Bashing of various cars/people aside, I'd like to note that it's nice to finally see that Falconer V12s will be put to use in a production car.

[Slicks]

You posted 1 magazine however. Car and Driver does not justify 1 comparison. Other European magazines have shown opposite results.
Show me the other results where the F430 or Gallardo is not wearing the Pirelli race tires.

[Slicks]

I was talking about the C6 Z06 against the F430, not how much mileage a modified Corvette is getting.
that wasnt refering to your post.

[Coventrysucks]

When the F430 is equiped with street tires, the Z06 will walk it.


Show me the other results where the F430 or Gallardo is not wearing the Pirelli race tires.

They are "street" tyres. You can drive an F430 or Gallardo, a Corvette, or many, many other cars with those tyres on any road, certainly across all of Europe. I've looked on the Pirelli USA website, and it says nothing about Corsa tyres being illegal for road use there either.

There is nothing illegal, unfair or "biased" about fitting high performance tyres to a high performance car, in fact I would say it is pretty common practice.

Nor is there anything illegal, unfair or "biased" about magazines testing cars with those tyres fitted, especially if manufacturers supply those tyres as an option - I've no Ferrari or Lamborghini options lists in front of me, but seeing as how the 575M HGTC was fitted with Pirelli PZero Corsas as standard, I would think it a little odd if they didn't offer them as an option on other cars in the range.

[digitalcraft]

Well, don't talk about 80's american car quality. We don't want to discuss that >.>;

[Rockefella]

The Corvette Z06 is faster then the Gallardo and the 430 on any track and there both in its performance range. What sports car does last these days? Ive seen many 100k mile C5 corvettes running strong. The LS1 is a well built long lasting engine. Read up before you post again. As slicks said the T-56 is a pretty nice trans and so is the old 4 speed auto.
Nah, sorry. The cars are all evenly matched, the difference in times being in the style of track.


When the F430 is equiped with street tires, the Z06 will walk it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11326/2006-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2006-ferrari-f430-vs-2007-porsche-911-turbo.html
And yes, this is a prime example, they give it to the Ferrari for feel and quality, as they should being its $100,000 more expencive than the Z06.
God slicks, tear off the Confederate Flag you've sewn on your chest.

The Z06 will not walk the Ferrari. The tires are legal on the Ferrari as well, as Cov pointed out.

[Slicks]

They are "street" tyres. You can drive an F430 or Gallardo, a Corvette, or many, many other cars with those tyres on any road, certainly across all of Europe. I've looked on the Pirelli USA website, and it says nothing about Corsa tyres being illegal for road use there either.

I know they are legal, just like Nittos...


There is nothing illegal, unfair or "biased" about fitting high performance tyres to a high performance car, in fact I would say it is pretty common practice.

Nor is there anything illegal, unfair or "biased" about magazines testing cars with those tyres fitted, especially if manufacturers supply those tyres as an option - I've no Ferrari or Lamborghini options lists in front of me, but seeing as how the 575M HGTC was fitted with Pirelli PZero Corsas as standard, I would think it a little odd if they didn't offer them as an option on other cars in the range.
And they greatly increase the performance of the car. And when were trying to compare as even as possible, tires are a big factor.
All the eurofanboys are whining about the F430 being able to beat the Z06, but overlook its only when wearing the Pirelli P Zero Corsa's.

[Slicks]

God slicks, tear off the Confederate Flag you've sewn on your chest.
The Z06 will not walk the Ferrari. The tires are legal on the Ferrari as well, as Cov pointed out.
For starters, im not from the south. Im just as "pro American" as you.
Did you take a look at the article I posted? The Corvette did walk the F430.

[rev440]

Nah, sorry. The cars are all evenly matched, the difference in times being in the style of track.


God slicks, tear off the Confederate Flag you've sewn on your chest.

The Z06 will not walk the Ferrari. The tires are legal on the Ferrari as well, as Cov pointed out.

The tires are not avable from the factory on the car. If the Z06 was on full road race slicks and the F430 and the Gallardo were on tires that are avable from the factory you guys would complain to because the cars arent matched equally. Look in the Car and Driver article between the Z06 the 997 turbo and the 430 the Z06 walked them all. The vette scored a 3 second better lap then the Ferrari when CanD tested them!

[Coventrysucks]

All the eurofanboys are whining about the F430 being able to beat the Z06, but overlook its only when wearing the Pirelli P Zero Corsa's.

Manufacturers do things to cars to make them faster - would the Corvette definately still beat an F430 if Chevrolet hadn't given it more power, torque and less weight?

If making good engineering decisions about things like engine output and weight to increase performance are ok, why would making a good choice of tyres to increase performance to be taken as negative?

The whole issue of faster = better is redundant - as proven by the fact that professional opinion regards the F430 as probably one of the best cars in the world, and not the Corvette.

I hope that Brammo will not be following Chevy/ SSC/ Saleen/ Viper i.e. expending their efforts on making their cars merely "faster" & cheaper than the competition and consequently failing to make them "better", and they go down the more fruitful avenue of making their cars as good as possible.

Then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to make excuses about "tyres" and "it costs $XXX,000 less", etc.

[2ndclasscitizen]

And they greatly increase the performance of the car. And when were trying to compare as even as possible, tires are a big factor.Comparisons are supposed to be as even as possible, but just because one manufacturer makes a tyre choice that isn't as good as the other, that's just one thing aginst that car.


All the eurofanboys are whining about the F430 being able to beat the Z06, but overlook its only when wearing the Pirelli P Zero Corsa's.If GM were serious about it being a car that beat a 430 or Gallardo, then they've got to accept that a serious sports car needs good tyres, not some rubbish rubber that let's them not equip a spare.

So many of the top rung sports cars of today in a manufacturers line are all fitted with semi-slick race tyres, i.e M3 CSL (Michelin Pilot Sport Cups) GT3 RS (Porsche-spec Corsas) 360CS (Corsas), hell, even the HSV DTS cars came with Corsas, and they were only a ~$75,000AUD car (about $55,000USD)

[rev440]

Then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to make excuses about "tyres" and "it costs $XXX,000 less", etc.

Hell it should be a nicer car its alot more money. But in all honesty its not how much the car costs its about when you get on the gas and see what it does. The tires are a big deal on a car like this. The Z06 is a torque monster and is limited by its stock tires because it can spin them rather easy.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Hell it should be a nicer car its alot more money. But in all honesty its not how much the car costs its about when you get on the gas and see what it does. The tires are a big deal on a car like this. The Z06 is a torque monster and is limited by its stock tires because it can spin them rather easy.Then GM has made a poor tyre choice. Plain and simple.

[gtface]

The ferarri is not available with pirellis from the factory. Therefore they are fitting after-market tires which can skew the results.

[digitalcraft]

Nevermind. Bit of drunk taunting >.>;

[Coventrysucks]

But in all honesty its not how much the car costs its about when you get on the gas and see what it does.

That is true - the cost of the car should not determine its performance - as proven by cars like the Caterham Seven, Lotus Elise and Ultima GTR.

But why is it that, despite being faster round a lap than the 997 Turbo and F430, the Z06 still comes last overall?

Things such as enjoyment, feedback etc, cannot be quantified, yet these things appear to take a back seat to the numbers when it comes to American sportscars.

If Chevrolet had put as much effort into making the Corvette as fun to drive as the Ferrari, instead of chasing the utterly meaningless title of "most lateral g", there would be no reason for it not to have come first.


The ferarri is not available with pirellis from the factory.

As I mentioned before - the 575M HGTC was available with Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres as standard, as was the 360 Challenge Stradale therefore I would be surprised if Ferrari did not still offer them, even if only as an option on other models.

Do you have any proof that they are not available?

[rev440]

That is true - the cost of the car should not determine its performance - as proven by cars like the Caterham Seven, Lotus Elise and Ultima GTR.

But why is it that, despite being faster round a lap than the 997 Turbo and F430, the Z06 still comes last overall?

Things such as enjoyment, feedback etc, cannot be quantified, yet these things appear to take a back seat to the numbers when it comes to American sportscars.

If Chevrolet had put as much effort into making the Corvette as fun to drive as the Ferrari, instead of chasing the utterly meaningless title of "most lateral g", there would be no reason for it not to have come first.



As I mentioned before - the 575M HGTC was available with Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres as standard, as was the 360 Challenge Stradale therefore I would be surprised if Ferrari did not still offer them, even if only as an option on other models.

Do you have any proof that they are not available?

I have proof of a 430 owner trying to get them on his car from the factory and they werent avable. Im sure the Ferrari is a tamer more mild mannered car on the street as it should be.

[Mr.Tiv]

I have proof of a 430 owner trying to get them on his car from the factory and they werent avable. Im sure the Ferrari is a tamer more mild mannered car on the street as it should be.
What proof?

[rev440]

What proof?

Its only a owner on FCHAT stating he could not get the Corsa tires on hes car from the factory.

[Mr.Tiv]

So it is just word of mouth; I would like to see some hard evidence if there is any to be seen, but I can't be bother to look now-things I have to do.

[digitalcraft]

Haha, so now that the americans have proven that their cars are indeed very fast, the EU's have decided to discount speed as meaningless in comparison with other traits.

Nice trick, but just admit the US can make fast cars! Just a little respect.

[Mr.Tiv]

Haha, so now that the americans have proven that their cars are indeed very fast, the EU's have decided to discount speed as meaningless in comparison with other traits.

Nice trick, but just admit the US can make fast cars! Just a little respect.
Fast cars that are of substandard quality.

[Juggs]

Then GM has made a poor tyre choice. Plain and simple.


or maybe they made a wise choice, consiering that tires are one of the number one things people change on the car. if ur gonna drag, auto-x, daily drive, road course, whatever their all going to take different tires. GM said hey i know, lets put some halfway decent all purpose tires on here, so that we can keep costs down because people are just going to change the tires anyways to do what they want to do with the car. unlike a lambo theres a MUCH MUCH broader audience buying the vette

[Mr.Tiv]

This might seem crazy, but why don't we discuss the Brammo Rogue GT? I personally doubt it will be all that impressive. Just another bloated status symbol.

[F1_Master]

Haha, so now that the americans have proven that their cars are indeed very fast, the EU's have decided to discount speed as meaningless in comparison with other traits.

Nice trick, but just admit the US can make fast cars! Just a little respect.
We all know they can. The problem is that now when my fellow Americans see Z06 or S7, they think they're god for their incredible price or stated top speed. The fact that is forgotten though is that these cars are not gods. They are now on par with the Europeans. Sure, they got speed, but the Europeans and Japanese always manage to stay just a step further on handling.

[Slicks]

We all know they can. The problem is that now when my fellow Americans see Z06 or S7, they think they're god for their incredible price or stated top speed. The fact that is forgotten though is that these cars are not gods. They are now on par with the Europeans. Sure, they got speed, but the Europeans and Japanese always manage to stay just a step further on handling.
Your comfusing handling with feel.
No one is saying the Corvette or S7 etc. are gods BTW.

[F1_Master]

Your comfusing handling with feel.
No one is saying the Corvette or S7 etc. are gods BTW.
Not on this site. I should have pointed that I meant the young kids, and men here in Texas. Sorry for the confusion.:o

[Coventrysucks]

I personally doubt it will be all that impressive. Just another bloated status symbol.

How or why did you reach that conclusion?

Looking at their website it is obvious that they care considerably about performance - they sell the Ariel Atom in the USA, hardly a prime example of a "bloated status symbol".

Where is any evidence that their own cars would be any different in philosophy?


Sure, they got speed, but the Europeans and Japanese always manage to stay just a step further on handling.

That is my point - these cars appear to chase impressive sounding objective titles - such as better "g" and a faster lap times than the European "competition", at the expense of the subjective parameters which ultimately lead Car and Driver, for example, to conclude the Ferrari is better than the Corvette.

Brammo have not released very much information as of yet, but when they do, so long as they don't start saying they are "going to beat Car X", and "be faster than Car Y at the Nurburgring" then I will have every confidence that they should be able to build a truly world-class supercar.

[Slicks]

Manufacturers do things to cars to make them faster - would the Corvette definately still beat an F430 if Chevrolet hadn't given it more power, torque and less weight?

If making good engineering decisions about things like engine output and weight to increase performance are ok, why would making a good choice of tyres to increase performance to be taken as negative?

Your blowing this way out of proportion. The Pirelli's are an option that puts the F430 on an even greater advantage (Im not going to bother mentioning the $20,000 brakes).


The whole issue of faster = better is redundant - as proven by the fact that professional opinion regards the F430 as probably one of the best cars in the world, and not the Corvette.

I, or no one else is denying the F430 is a great car in and out. But the simple fact that the less than half priced Corvette is being compared to such a car is a complement in itself.
Side note, the F430 is only great when ignoring real world things like costs of ownership, which is what makes the Corvette very appealing.


I hope that Brammo will not be following Chevy/ SSC/ Saleen/ Viper i.e. expending their efforts on making their cars merely "faster" & cheaper than the competition and consequently failing to make them "better", and they go down the more fruitful avenue of making their cars as good as possible.

Ignorance is bliss?
The Viper Coupe is said to have excellent road feel and is very charming at the track (better than the Viper convertable). Boohoo the interior is dull, its NOT a luxury car, its SUPPOSED TO BE RAW.
As far as the S7, I cant say enough good about it, read this:
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/10769/saleen-s7-twin-turbo.html

Then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to make excuses about "tyres" and "it costs $XXX,000 less", etc.[/QUOTE]

[Mr.Tiv]

Ignorance is bliss?
The Viper Coupe is said to have excellent road feel and is very charming at the track (better than the Viper convertable). Boohoo the interior is dull, its NOT a luxury car, its SUPPOSED TO BE RAW.
As far as the S7, I cant say enough good about it, read this:
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/10769/saleen-s7-twin-turbo.html

Then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to make excuses about "tyres" and "it costs $XXX,000 less", etc.[/QUOTE]
You can have a "raw" car that doesn't have a dull interior. Take TVR for instance.

[gtface]

I really think the reason that American companies build cars the way they do is that it is the only way that makes sense for them right now. If Chevy spent twice as much money on the vette to make the interior nicer and things like that it would lose the very thing that sets it apart from ferraris and other euro supercars- the price. The US automakers have to take that angle because if a middle-aged man with a ton of money to spend on a car had a choice between a ferarri and a corvette, and the ferarri and corvette were evenly matched in every category (performance, luxury, price, etc) the guy would choose the ferrari almost every time, just because of the badge. US automakers haven't established themselves in that market the way the europeans have, and doing so now would be a very costly endeavour. It would take a lot more than one or two really excellent cars to change the minds of the public, because ferrari and porsche are such huge status symbols. GM, Ford, and Chrysler obviously don't think it's worth it, as this bang-for the-buck angle has worked for them pretty well so far, even if it means giving up some in interior quality. I don't see this changing anytime soon.

[Slicks]

You can have a "raw" car that doesn't have a dull interior. Take TVR for instance.
Other than the bright neon colors most of their interiors are rather dull and uninspiring.
http://www.thiswayupdesigns.co.uk/pics/cars/tvr-Tus_3010-interior.jpg

[Mr.Tiv]

Other than the bright neon colors most of their interiors are rather dull and uninspiring.
I suppose it is a matter of opinion. They'll build it however you ask anyway. I rather like the fact that they are flowing and organic.

[clutch-monkey]

They'll build it however you ask anyway.
unless you ask them to build it well... ;)

[Mr.Tiv]

unless you ask them to build it well... ;)
I beg to differ. The quality's not so bad, and never really was. Now granted, they aren't the most reliable, they really don't have many serious problems these days. I am not saying the quality is astounding, but some people make them out to be a lot worse than they are.

[Coventrysucks]

If Chevy spent twice as much money on the vette to make the interior nicer and things like that it would lose the very thing that sets it apart from ferraris and other euro supercars- the price.

If the only reason that a Z06 is "behind" a Ferrari is merely because of the price and quality of interior and other detailing, why would the Z06 not be better than a Ferrari with those things improved?

If Chevy can build a car that is, say, 2/3 as good as a Ferrari for 1/2 the price, logically they should be able to build a car for the same price of a Ferrari that is 1/3 better.

In essance, that is basically what Ford did with the GT, and it was very successful.


Other than the bright neon colors most of their interiors are rather dull and uninspiring.

Bright colours are dull?

Quite a revelation.

If you were choosing between two similar cars, and only one offered the option of specifying a bespoke interior and exterior scheme at no extra cost, how would that not be a major selling point?

After all, you can still choose a dull and uninspiring all-black interior and primary red paint if you wanted.

[clutch-monkey]

I beg to differ. The quality's not so bad, and never really was. Now granted, they aren't the most reliable, they really don't have many serious problems these days. I am not saying the quality is astounding, but some people make them out to be a lot worse than they are.
i've seen better stitching on a vietnamese handbag.. :p

[speednine]

okay, so, this thread has gone waaaaay off topic now. I like TVR's and would rather own one over any american car. NOt to mention the fact that the speed six engine sounds incredible!! Never heard anything like it before!!!!!!!

[Slicks]

Bright colours are dull?
"Other than the bright neon colors..."


If you were choosing between two similar cars, and only one offered the option of specifying a bespoke interior and exterior scheme at no extra cost, how would that not be a major selling point?

After all, you can still choose a dull and uninspiring all-black interior and primary red paint if you wanted.
As a no cost option (cant think of any car that would have this) that would be great.

[mattmacklind]

I can't believe you guys are arguing about whether a Ferrari, Lambo, or some other lower production "exotic" is better than a Vette. It better be better than a Vette, if on no level other than quality materials and fit & finish, panel gaps, etc. This is like comparing a factory made chocolate to one made in a small bakery. Its just a totally different product. The fact that you can eat both of them is where the similarity ends. At the same time, the Vette is pretty amazing. I haven't driven a C6 but it looks awesome. I have driven a C4 and a C5 and they were great. I didn't like the digital dash on the C4 but it drove great, and it had like 70K miles on it. Most people who buy Ferrari's and Lambo's never see mileage that high anyway, and definitely not in less than 10 years. They're just totally different products.

You can't ask a company in business to (try) and make a profit, making cars across the market spectrum worldwide, to make a business case to produce some jewel of a handcrafted sportscar. All the R&D, sourcing new materials and components, new manufacturing techniques. Companies that do are more dedicated to producing cars like that alone. I suppose the Ford GT could be an exception, but the prce reflects what was necessary to bring it to market with a profit. Many would be hesitant to pay that price for a Ford product. Chevy should be more easily compared to Fiat than Ferrari.

As far as tires on Vettes as delivered, I saw a car carrier with about 7 C6's on it not too long ago en route to a dealer I imagine. I was next to it on the highway in slow traffic and really gave them all a good look. Do you know, one of the things I noticed as odd was that there were so many different wheel styles available. This drew my attention to the tires. Every one I looked at had a different set of tires! Maybe they were ordered that way, I don't know but I though it was weird.

Anyway, regardless of stats, the C6 is a great car, wish I could afford one but maybe later. I'll never own a Ferrari, I think I can say that with comfort. I've got my ancient sportscar and its high maintenance enough for me I can't imagine what a money monster a Ferrari is if its driven regularly. I always thought the Vette, even up until the C5, was a little down market and had image problems in the US. Enthusiasts drive Porsches and so on, right? Vette's are fast cars for rednecks, right? A poor man's sportscar? That was until I actually drove some and was totally surprised and corrected. I think the C6 overcomes some of the "hairy chested/medallion wearing" stereotypes the Vette has suffered from in the past.

[gtface]

If the only reason that a Z06 is "behind" a Ferrari is merely because of the price and quality of interior and other detailing, why would the Z06 not be better than a Ferrari with those things improved?

If Chevy can build a car that is, say, 2/3 as good as a Ferrari for 1/2 the price, logically they should be able to build a car for the same price of a Ferrari that is 1/3 better.

In essance, that is basically what Ford did with the GT, and it was very successful.

I don't think that's how it works, and even if Chevy could build a car that was the same price as the Ferrari and was 1/3 better it probably would not be enough. It takes a lot to change public opinion, especially when it comes to very expensive luxury items. In comparisons I have seen between the Ford GT and the Ferrari F430, the GT outperformed the F430 in a straight line (which is no surprise) and also posted a better lap time. However, in every one of these articles, the authors chose the ferrari as the better car. I don't know if this was because of the interior quality, the feel, the electric gizmos or what, but it was not because of how fast it was. Then again, Ford did sell more than 4000 GTs in the 2 years it was in production (a little over 2000 per year), which is pretty close to the production numbers for F430s I believe. I guess the GT was fairly well received by the public anyway. I too would love to see GM or Ford or Chrysler go after Ferrari for real, but it seems like they have found their niche in the sports car market and they are not prepared to budge right now.

[kigango123]

Were you born stupid or did you just get dropped a lot?
the man doesnt have many come back lines, he used that one on me too

[Mr.Tiv]

How or why did you reach that conclusion?

Looking at their website it is obvious that they care considerably about performance - they sell the Ariel Atom in the USA, hardly a prime example of a "bloated status symbol".

Where is any evidence that their own cars would be any different in philosophy?



That is my point - these cars appear to chase impressive sounding objective titles - such as better "g" and a faster lap times than the European "competition", at the expense of the subjective parameters which ultimately lead Car and Driver, for example, to conclude the Ferrari is better than the Corvette.
Brammo have not released very much information as of yet, but when they do, so long as they don't start saying they are "going to beat Car X", and "be faster than Car Y at the Nurburgring" then I will have every confidence that they should be able to build a truly world-class supercar.
While Brammo aren't yet claiming to best this manufacturer and that car and they do seem very performance oriented, they don't seem to be going about acheiving it properly. Rather than properly engineering a true supercar, they seem to be going for brute force. More power and larger displacement does not always make for the best car. I quess my point is that a 10L V12 is completely unnecessary. Now, may I ask why you are so hostile-perhaps I am only perceiving your endless interrogation as hostile...

[Coventrysucks]

Rather than properly engineering a true supercar, they seem to be going for brute force. More power and larger displacement does not always make for the best car. I quess my point is that a 10L V12 is completely unnecessary.

True; good cars don't need big engines and big outputs to go fast - however; if you want to make something that is actually considered a "supercar" rather than merely a "sports car", you need to be accelerating very quickly, and hitting high top speeds.

You can achieve the first with a low output, and c.500kg.

You can achieve the second with a low output, some very low-drag bodywork (no downforce for the corners), and a spare week to make the run-up.

Realistically though, to get the air out of the way you do need brute force, and their quoted 850bhp is not excessive when compared to Bugatti, Saleen and SSC offering 1000bhp+

Furthermore I think that a bespoke, naturally aspirated V12 is much more fitting for a "supercar" than a blown V8 - not that V8s are bad, but they are rather the "workhorse" of engines, and a supercar needs something a bit special and exotic.

Obviously, building a completely bespoke engine is rather expensive, so if the option of an easy 850-1000bhp V12 comes along at a reasonable price, would you really complain that bitterly about it being 10-litres rather than 6?

I said before that it seems rather heavy, but since the car is still projected to be c. 1300kg, that isn't neccessarily a problem.

I think it is rather unfair to say at this time that they have not "properly engineered" the car when there is no proof of any of their engineering so far, only their choice of engine.

Don't forget that they appear to be planning a more "entry-level" V8-engined car, which may well be the RST engine - which could never vbe described as "excessive".


Now, may I ask why you are so hostile-perhaps I am only perceiving your endless interrogation as hostile...

You keep making very "definative" sounding posts about things with no apparent explanation as to how you've reached those conclusions, unless prompted.

I am merely prompting. Sorry if you think that is "hostile".

This site wouldn't be very interesting if everyone just said "I do/don't like it".

Maybe I'm just a fool to think otherwise.

[Mr.Tiv]

True; good cars don't need big engines and big outputs to go fast - however; if you want to make something that is actually considered a "supercar" rather than merely a "sports car", you need to be accelerating very quickly, and hitting high top speeds.

You can achieve the first with a low output, and c.500kg.

You can achieve the second with a low output, some very low-drag bodywork (no downforce for the corners), and a spare week to make the run-up.

Realistically though, to get the air out of the way you do need brute force, and their quoted 850bhp is not excessive when compared to Bugatti, Saleen and SSC offering 1000bhp+

Furthermore I think that a bespoke, naturally aspirated V12 is much more fitting for a "supercar" than a blown V8 - not that V8s are bad, but they are rather the "workhorse" of engines, and a supercar needs something a bit special and exotic.

Obviously, building a completely bespoke engine is rather expensive, so if the option of an easy 850-1000bhp V12 comes along at a reasonable price, would you really complain that bitterly about it being 10-litres rather than 6?

I said before that it seems rather heavy, but since the car is still projected to be c. 1300kg, that isn't neccessarily a problem.

I think it is rather unfair to say at this time that they have not "properly engineered" the car when there is no proof of any of their engineering so far, only their choice of engine.

Don't forget that they appear to be planning a more "entry-level" V8-engined car, which may well be the RST engine - which could never vbe described as "excessive".



You keep making very "definative" sounding posts about things with no apparent explanation as to how you've reached those conclusions, unless prompted.

I am merely prompting. Sorry if you think that is "hostile".

This site wouldn't be very interesting if everyone just said "I do/don't like it".

Maybe I'm just a fool to think otherwise.
I really can't argue with any of that. If my posts sounded "definative", I am sure we are bothe misinterpreting each other. Back on the topic, or sort of-I have to ask, does anyone know whether it will be mid engined, front engined, or mid-front engined.

[Coventrysucks]

All of the images on the Brammo website that could be of the Rogue appear to show a mid-engined vehicle.

[clutch-monkey]

the man doesnt have many come back lines, he used that one on me too
in your case it's especially true.

[Mr.Tiv]

All of the images on the Brammo website that could be of the Rogue appear to show a mid-engined vehicle.
That's what I was thinking, It would be a mistake to put such a massive engine anywhere else.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Don't forget that they appear to be planning a more "entry-level" V8-engined car, which may well be the RST engine - which could never vbe described as "excessive".Is the RST V8 the one in the Caparo?

[Coventrysucks]

Is the RST V8 the one in the Caparo?

The numbers appear similar, but there is no mention of it on either the RST or Caparo websites.

[evile]

www.brammo.com

Might look good if this was 1996, and not 2006, and their names are crap, and they aren't GTs either.

Very interesting, though, that they appear to be planning a car powered by the RST V8 - 400bhp from 2.0-litres at 10-12,000rpm and it weighs 74 kg.

Much better idea than a 230kg, 10-litre V12.

You could fit two RST engines in there instead, get your 800bhp and still save 90kg

I believe Brammo has dropped "Rogue" from the name of their new car. At least it is no longer referenced that way on their website. The Rogue from Rogue GT was chosen because Brammo's facility is located in the Rogue River Valley region of Oregon. Kind of like when Ferrari named the 360 the Modena, and Pagani named their car Zonda (Zonda is a wind that blows through a mountain range in South America). Both have regional connotations.

Also, the designer of the car has a background with Daytona Prototypes. That probably had a big influence on the shape of the car. Curvy and wedgey rear engined cars have been around for decades. They all have similarities due to aerodynamic, engine location, heat dissipation and cockpit design challenges. Currently, I believe the Zonda has the most unique shape , and I am anticipating seeing the Brammo GT in the flesh someday.

[dsts6]

While Brammo aren't yet claiming to best this manufacturer and that car and they do seem very performance oriented, they don't seem to be going about acheiving it properly. Rather than properly engineering a true supercar, they seem to be going for brute force. More power and larger displacement does not always make for the best car. I quess my point is that a 10L V12 is completely unnecessary. Now, may I ask why you are so hostile-perhaps I am only perceiving your endless interrogation as hostile...

Although I'm a proponent of light cars with high reving engines, i'm still impressed with the Brammo GT. One: its light. Two: the engine is putting out a lot of hp for its size. 850hp/10 liters is not bad. the viper puts out 500 from an 8 liter. Also remember they can get 1100 hp from a naturally aspirated version which means it probably revs reasonably high. As long as the car is light and has a high horsepower/liter engine I think they are on the right track. And i believe they are putting plenty into the handling capabilities. And in any case, they are also making the Ronin GT which should handle even better being lighter.

[jcp123]

When have the americans made a car that has both impresive performance and quality? The Corvette is not that great it performs but isn't built to last, and every good car Ford has made has been British.

IMHO nobody's made a high-quality car in the last 30-40 years.

[Slicks]

Although I'm a proponent of light cars with high reving engines, i'm still impressed with the Brammo GT. One: its light. Two: the engine is putting out a lot of hp for its size. 850hp/10 liters is not bad. the viper puts out 500 from an 8 liter. Also remember they can get 1100 hp from a naturally aspirated version which means it probably revs reasonably high. As long as the car is light and has a high horsepower/liter engine I think they are on the right track. And i believe they are putting plenty into the handling capabilities. And in any case, they are also making the Ronin GT which should handle even better being lighter.
Welcome to UCP, let me open your eyes up here though. Im not trying to bash you just showing you the light.
Hp/displacement is absolutely irrelevant in the real world with street cars. Displacement is not limited, nor does it show things that matter like physical size or weight.
Ill make this very simple, in the attachment below the engine on the right actually has slightly more displacement than the one on the left (4.6L vs 4.9L), and for the sake of this example lets just say the engine on the right is also 100lbs lighter than the one on the left. Also for this example both of these engines are making, say, 300hp. Now the bigger, heavier engine on the left has more hp/l, and the smaller, lighter engine on the right has less hp/l. If you had to choose which engine would go in a kit car you were making, based on what was just said, which would you pick? Hopefully the physically smaller one, that makes more hp/weight. Can you see how hp/l means nothing when it comes to performance?

[man 430gt]

www.brammo.com

Might look good if this was 1996, and not 2006, and their names are crap, and they aren't GTs either.

It's American, these people go for sounds and big BHP!:rolleyes:

[Slicks]

It's American, these people go for sounds and big BHP!:rolleyes:
God forbid. :rolleyes:
Every car should be the same.

[Waugh-terfall]

It's American, these people go for sounds and big BHP!:rolleyes:

Agh! Give it to the brittish to tune and run on our fuel, and by god, it'll define power and big BHP

[Coventrysucks]

God forbid. :rolleyes:
Every car should be the same.

All powered by ruddy Chevy small blocks, apparently :rolleyes:

[F1_Master]

It's American, these people go for sounds and big BHP!:rolleyes:
OMG, that's so funny. Is that why we dominated the FIA GT when the Vipers were running?:rolleyes:

[The_Canuck]

OMG, that's so funny. Is that why we dominated the FIA GT when the Vipers were running?:rolleyes:
Yeah those Saleens owned in ALMS...oh yeah, they didn't...
Nobody mention Corvette...ASTON MARTIN>YOU

[Slicks]

All powered by ruddy Chevy small blocks, apparently :rolleyes:
They should really look into the big, heavy, expencive OHC engines so they can market the cars as 'high tech'.

[Coventrysucks]

OMG, that's so funny. Is that why we dominated the FIA GT when the Vipers were running?:rolleyes:

"We"?

You're French?

Well, monsieur, be proud that your factory-backed French cars managed to "dominate" a class of privately entered Porsche 993 GT2s, the occasional Marcos, Lister or Ferrari. (Untill Ferrari & Lister got their acts together, anyway.)

[Quiggs]

Yay, another American vs Euro pissing match... Where's my dead horse pic when I need it?

SBC > all. Except 1.8T

[dsts6]

Interesting....so is the brammo engine big and heavy for the amount of hp it gives. What I'm asking is that is the weight/hp ratio of the engine good?

[Rockefella]

Where's my dead horse pic when I need it?
You let me borrow it last week.

http://www.whiteville.com/media/FRONT%20PHOTOS/front%2011.22.04/Dead-horse-farmers-un-3631.jpg

[F1_Master]

Yeah those Saleens owned in ALMS...oh yeah, they didn't...
Nobody mention Corvette...ASTON MARTIN>YOU

Oh wow...did you forget Vipers were the ones who started setting the pace for American cars in the Le Mans race? BTW, look up the history of the Corvette C5R in LeMans.

Look up the FIA GT standings while you're at it. Who is the company with the most wins per car? Chrysler.
Who is the company with most number of class wins per car? Chrysler.

In the FIA GT3, at Round2 @ Oschersleben, Vipers and Corvettes dominated in the 1-5 positions.
At Spa, in the next round, a Viper won. Z06 GT3 followed 3rd behind it in front of a DBRS9 which was also followed by a Viper.
Round 4 Dijon, Vipers dominate the first 2 positions in front o 2 DBSR9s; a Viper and Corvette finish directly afterwards.
Round 5 at Mugello, a Viper finished 3rd in front a DBRS9.

BTW, lets look at the statistics of the 2006 ALMS season.
Corvettes -189 Points.
Aston Martin - 186 Points.

Yeah, those Aston Martins sure did own 'em.

[Coventrysucks]

Oh wow...did you forget Vipers were the ones who started setting the pace for American cars in the Le Mans race? BTW, look up the history of the Corvette C5R in LeMans.

Look up the FIA GT standings while you're at it. Who is the company with the most wins per car? Chrysler.
Who is the company with most number of class wins per car? Chrysler.

Chrysler may take the glory, but they didn't build the car.

As I said before, the Viper GTS-R, and incidentally the new Viper GT3 which is winning all the races in the FIA GT3 series, are both French cars, by virtue of the fact that they are engineered and built by Oreca.



BTW, lets look at the statistics of the 2006 ALMS season.
Corvettes -189 Points.
Aston Martin - 186 Points.

Yeah, those Aston Martins sure did own 'em.

Previously:


the DBR9 beat the C6R 4/5 times in the ALMS, 6/9 times in the FIA GT c'ship, and 2/2 times both cars were entered in LMS races, whilst the DBRS9 beat the Z06 GT3 6/8 times in the FIA GT3 championship...

Not to say that the Viper, C5/6R and S7R aren't good race cars, you just need to put it all into context - they aren't quite the "all conquering, all-American" masterpieces you claim.

[Slicks]

Interesting....so is the brammo engine big and heavy for the amount of hp it gives. What I'm asking is that is the weight/hp ratio of the engine good?
Brammo gives dimensions on their site:
http://www.brammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=102

So its around the weight of the BMW 5L V10, but it makes way more power throughout the whole rev range.

[dsts6]

Brammo gives dimensions on their site:
http://www.brammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=102

So its around the weight of the BMW 5L V10, but it makes way more power throughout the whole rev range.
So that must mean its a great engine, no?

[F1_Master]

they aren't quite the "all conquering, all-American" masterpieces you claim.
Tell me, though, were you get this, 4/5 times in ALMS statistics.

Because according to ALMS, you're off.
Sebring: Corvette
Houston: Corvette
Mid-Ohio: Corvette
Lime-Rock: Aston Martin
Salt Lake City: Aston Martin
Portland: Corvette
Road America: Corvette
Mosport: Aston Martin
Petit Le Mans: Aston Martin
Laguna Seca: Aston Martin

Last time I checked, that wasn't 4/5, that was 5/10->1/2.
And even then, the C6R won the class.

But, my point in the beginning was to show how ignorant man 430gt's statement was.

[Slicks]

So that must mean its a great engine, no?
Id so so, except its a super long engine (36in!).

[dsts6]

E60 M5 5.0 Liter V10 Weight 529.11 lbs 507 hp
Brammo 10 liter V12 Weight 522 lbs 850hp atleast
I guess If i got the right numbers, that puts an end to the arguement that this is just a big heavy engine.

[Coventrysucks]

Tell me, though, were you get this, 4/5 times in ALMS statistics.

That's none of your business.

I like how you completely sidestep the argument just so you can pick at one bit of erroneous typing.

If that's all the maturity you can muster though, fine by me.


I guess If i got the right numbers, that puts an end to the arguement that this is just a big heavy engine.

I don't think that by merely comparing maximum output, capacity and weight, you have conclusively proven anything, other than what those specific statistics are.

What about drivabiliy, torque curve, delivery, ability to rev, the physical size, the gearbox & transmission implications, etc. ?

[dsts6]

K i did'nt build the car, I can only speculate

[Slicks]

I don't think that by merely comparing maximum output, capacity and weight, you have conclusively proven anything, other than what those specific statistics are.

What about drivabiliy, torque curve, delivery, ability to rev, the physical size, the gearbox & transmission implications, etc. ?
I think its pretty safe to assume that the 10L V12 will have a better torque curve. I cant really see how "ability to rev" has to do with anything. Its physical size is definetly its down fall, its super long.

[Coventrysucks]

I cant really see how "ability to rev" has to do with anything.

You can't see how being able to rev would have anything to do with an engine?

Well, an engine that doesn't rev won't get you far, there's a starting point for comprehension, see if you can go from there.

[dsts6]

I think ikt will rev a little....

[evile]

Interesting....so is the brammo engine big and heavy for the amount of hp it gives. What I'm asking is that is the weight/hp ratio of the engine good?

Ferrari's F140 V12 which is used in the Enzo and 599 GTB weighs in at about 500 lbs. The Mercedes Benz M120 V12 used in Pagani Zonda weighs more (520 lbs) than the Brammo/Ryan Falconer V12 (510 lbs) used in the GT. I've never heard anyone complain that Ferrari and Pagani have used "big & heavy" engines.

Also, the Brammo/Falconer V12 is considerably lighter than Lamborghini's current V12. According to the RIDES piece on the introduction of the Murcielago roadster it's drive-train (engine & transmission) weighs over 900 lbs. The GT's transmission is bespoke and very light. I do not have its specific weight but it can be found on their the website.

If Brammo can hit their weight targets the GT will weigh less than the Enzo by about 300 lbs. Also, it will have about 150 more horsepower, and much more torque. The GT will have a great horsepower to weight ratio, and it should at least be a great straight line performer.

Unfortunately, the Brammo GT is nothing more than vaporware at this time. Details regarding the car are scarce, and if you go to the website you get teased. However, if you poke around on their site long enough you can find some snipettes regarding the car. Plus, it appears they have the resources and talent to create a great car. Only time will tell.

[Slicks]

You can't see how being able to rev would have anything to do with an engine?

Well, an engine that doesn't rev won't get you far, there's a starting point for comprehension, see if you can go from there.
What do you mean by "ability to rev"? How high it can rev? How fast it can rev?

[dsts6]

Ferrari's F140 V12 which is used in the Enzo and 599 GTB weighs in at about 500 lbs. The Mercedes Benz M120 V12 used in Pagani Zonda weighs more (520 lbs) than the Brammo/Ryan Falconer V12 (510 lbs) used in the GT. I've never heard anyone complain that Ferrari and Pagani have used "big & heavy" engines.

Also, the Brammo/Falconer V12 is considerably lighter than Lamborghini's current V12. According to the RIDES piece on the introduction of the Murcielago roadster it's drive-train (engine & transmission) weighs over 900 lbs. The GT's transmission is bespoke and very light. I do not have its specific weight but it can be found on their the website.

If Brammo can hit their weight targets the GT will weigh less than the Enzo by about 300 lbs. Also, it will have about 150 more horsepower, and much more torque. The GT will have a great horsepower to weight ratio, and it should at least be a great straight line performer.

Unfortunately, the Brammo GT is nothing more than vaporware at this time. Details regarding the car are scarce, and if you go to the website you get teased. However, if you poke around on their site long enough you can find some snipettes regarding the car. Plus, it appears they have the resources and talent to create a great car. Only time will tell.

Thank you for that:)

[Alawn]

I think the best ?

[teatako]

hmm. so the first american v12 super car, according to the site you guys linked is basically a couple rather outdated-looking sketches, screenshots of a CAD model, and a goofy name, right?. gee. i´m not an expert on engines or transmission implications or whatever, but i´ve heard of quite a few "american v12 supercars" that never see the light. so...

[evile]

hmm. so the first american v12 super car, according to the site you guys linked is basically a couple rather outdated-looking sketches, screenshots of a CAD model, and a goofy name, right?. gee. i´m not an expert on engines or transmission implications or whatever, but i´ve heard of quite a few "american v12 supercars" that never see the light. so...

I do not recall ever hearing about any other American V12 supercars. Can you provide detail regarding the other cars? You are correct in one respect...there are many designs and concepts that never get built.

However, unlike some of the companies that have had unsuccessful designs Brammo is actually building cars. Brammo is building the Ariel Atom here in the U.S. They are not an importer. They are building cars from the ground up. Infact, they have made modifications (3" wider) to accomodate us fat American's (I'm one of them).

Read the Ariel Atom article on windingroad.com. It goes into some detail regarding Brammo and its version of the Atom. Also, I read another article stating they have a backlog for the Atom, and they are building a new, larger facility.

As I stated earlier the GT is vaperware until Brammo releases solid details (prototype photos, specs etc.). However, the renderings and CAD draws of the car thus far do not give any indication the car looks any more dated than any other rear engined sports car.

Finally, there is a significance to the name Rogue GT. Brammo Motorsport's facility is located in the Rogue River Valley region of Oregan. Thus, the name Rogue GT. It's kind'a like Ferrari naming the 360 Modena. I hope the car makes it to production.

[550spyder]

I have been checking their website for awhile now...I wish they would give is some more pics? Any idea when this thing is going to be ready??

[550spyder]

Heres another American Company coming out with a new car...dont know if its a v12 or not but I like the picture anyway... even though there isnt much to see. WWW.BORNCARS.COM

[darkjedi]

nice cars , americans can built good cars

But it strikes me , when someone calls the GT40 british , everybody seems to forget that the car didnt won anything before Carroll Shelby took over the project, before him the car didnt look very good in the track actually , and they also forget the famous all american victory with all american drivers.

[Matra et Alpine]

nice cars , americans can built good cars

But it strikes me , when someone calls the GT40 british , everybody seems to forget that the car didnt won anything before Carroll Shelby took over the project, before him the car didnt look very good in the track actually , and they also forget the famous all american victory with all american drivers.
Do a serach on here, we've covered the "myth" of the GT40 success with more historically accurate background.

[darkjedi]

Do a serach on here, we've covered the "myth" of the GT40 success with more historically accurate background.

what´s the success percentage of Ford in Lemans?

thank you...

[Rockefella]

what´s the success percentage of Ford in Lemans?

thank you...
That's not what he was talking about.

[DieFrage]

nice cars , americans can built good cars

But it strikes me , when someone calls the GT40 british , everybody seems to forget that the car didnt won anything before Carroll Shelby took over the project, before him the car didnt look very good in the track actually , and they also forget the famous all american victory with all american drivers.
Carrol Shelby did take over the project and create the MkII but the car was penned by a brit from Lola, besides, the shelby super cars like the 289 Cobra and the GT40 can't be called any single nationality simply because his team was involved. Shelby had engineers with Ph.D's from Germany, Australia, Great Britain, some american "backyard mechanics" and many more countries. They are more an example of what can be accomplished by crossing boundaries than by creating them by giving the cars a nationality.

[Matra et Alpine]

what´s the success percentage of Ford in Lemans?

thank you...
For the GT40 atrocious .... many books don't bother to say how many cars were entered ..

Her's a list last time this came up .... a comparison with Ferrari

GT40 Le Mans history - a perspective
1964 3 cars entered. None finished.
6 Ferrari in same class
1965 6 cars entered. None finised.
3 Ferrari in same class
1966 13 cars entered. 10 did not finish. Historic 1-2-3
9 Ferrari in same class
1967 12 cars entered. 10 did not finish. 1st and 4th
NO Ferrari in same class, 7 in the class below
1968 5 entered. NO offical Ford. 4 did not finish. 1st to Wyers team
4 Ferrari in same class
1969 5 entered. 2 others failed to make start. No official Ford. 2 did not finish. 1st and 3rd to Wyers team
1 Ferrari in same class
http://gt40.org.uk/Le%20Mans/ (http://gt40.org.uk/Le%20Mans/)
http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1969/69lemans.html (http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1969/69lemans.html)

[70cuda88]

well, i dont know about the GT or The GT40 or many of the versiond of it, buuuut, i think the 2000 Dodge Hennesey Viper 800TT, (look it up) is one of the greatest american muscle cars, and its not shabby performance either
-tops around 240
-0-60 in 2.2 seconds
-0-100 in 5.5 seconds
so yeah, think that over

[70cuda88]

Heres another American Company coming out with a new car...dont know if its a v12 or not but I like the picture anyway... even though there isnt much to see. WWW.BORNCARS.COM


i found another picture and a comment by the guy who proposed it check it out, it says it will be on the site soon

[darkjedi]

Carrol Shelby did take over the project and create the MkII but the car was penned by a brit from Lola, besides, the shelby super cars like the 289 Cobra and the GT40 can't be called any single nationality simply because his team was involved. Shelby had engineers with Ph.D's from Germany, Australia, Great Britain, some american "backyard mechanics" and many more countries. They are more an example of what can be accomplished by crossing boundaries than by creating them by giving the cars a nationality.

Im sorry , but i was right its wrong to call it british .

But it bothers , i have seen this in many other forums every time someone posts a new great American car it turns either into a bash ford, GM etc or a thread about the GT40 not being American or USA whatever .

I thought we were talking about the brammo , first i think the guy that named it tried to name it Rambo but the car overall looks great , cant wait to see it for real .

[scientific]

Worst of all, its american. And the Americans never build a properly fast car in history !!! :D


i agree with that