2012 Porsche 928. [Archive] - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

Quiggs

10-13-2006, 09:13 AM

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/image/2006/Q4/100320061509413390.jpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/image/2006/Q4/100320061509418176.jpg

BY TONY QUIROGA, November 2006

The 928, Porsche’s front-engine entry in the coupe GT market, never quite enjoyed the success of the signature sports car, the 911. Since Porsche stopped producing the 928 in 1995 after an 18-year run, the German automaker has gone without a front-engine coupe to compete with the likes of the BMW M6, Jaguar XKR, Aston-Martin DB9, and Mercedes CL-class. The 911, which remains much more the pure sports car than any of the coupes, has gradually moved farther upmarket and provides a sporting alternative to those cars, but it now appears that Porsche is developing a more direct competitor for the front-engine GTs, a coupe that sources suggest will be in showrooms by 2011. Porsche might even name it the 928.

Built on the platform that will underpin Porsche’s 2009 Panamera four-door sports sedan, the unnamed two-door will ride on a shorter wheelbase but will share at least 60 percent of its parts with the Panamera. The sedan’s control-arm front suspension and multilink rear will likely get firmer tuning in keeping with the coupe’s sporting pretense. The shorter wheelbase will reduce the coupe’s weight and improve its handling, but the reduction will come at the expense of rear-seat space. As in the 911, the back seats will likely only be suitable for children, insolent teens, and mothers-in-law.

Coupe buyers will choose from a selection of Porsche’s next-generation direct-injection-equipped V-8 engines. The Cayenne SUV will also get these new V-8s. Power is expected to be about 350 horses upward, with turbo versions making in excess of 500. There are rumors regarding a possible 6.0-liter V-10, which would reportedly make about 650 horsepower. Transmission choices should mirror those found in the Panamera — a seven-speed, dual-clutch DSG in the automatic role and a six-speed manual for those who insist on traditional shifting. There are no plans for an all-wheel-drive version. Like the 928 that preceded it, this coupe will be rear-wheel drive, with a transaxle helping to balance weight distribution.

Pricing for this front-engine Porsche will likely begin where the naturally aspirated 911’s leaves off, a base version of the coupe going for about $100,000, with prices of higher-horsepower versions rising quickly into the rare $150,000-plus stratosphere, where the Bentley Continental GT rules. Discuss.

lightweight

10-13-2006, 09:21 AM

The best concept sketch on the topic so far.

It remains to be seen whether the real thing will resemble this

man 430gt

10-13-2006, 09:23 AM

Front reminds me of a 612..

syko

10-13-2006, 09:25 AM

Front reminds me of a 612..

except this looks much better

but why so far away 6 years is a long time to wait

Piacki_117

10-13-2006, 09:26 AM

Those chops look pretty good.

baddabang

10-13-2006, 09:26 AM

That is one nice looking sketch.

I dont think it will have any trouble competing in the market, that is as long as Porsche takes their time and keeps the design similar to the sketch and as far away from the Cayenne as possible :)

m5child

10-13-2006, 09:33 AM

except this looks much better

but why so far away 6 years is a long time to wait

I hope people don't forget about for so long... but why 6 years? i'd understand 2-3 years, but 6???

:Exige:

10-13-2006, 09:38 AM

The best concept sketch on the topic so far.

It remains to be seen whether the real thing will resemble this
Seeing as the front and rear pictures don't resemble each other, I'd guess not. The front pic is just a DB9 rear, Boxster grilles and CGT bonnet melded together.

kigango123

10-13-2006, 10:43 AM

whether it is sketch or real life, i like it look like a porshe panamera front, with
an suv back or something

ScionDriver

10-13-2006, 12:39 PM

I like it, actually seems like Porsche designers tried for a change. Something a bit new, a bit different and still with the retro bits on it.

Why wait 6 years? Aren't all the mentioned cars (M6, DB9, XKR, etc) on the market NOW, taking potenial Porsche money NOW. Not 6 years from now...

Egg Nog

10-13-2006, 01:16 PM

I hope they size it properly. I have a feeling it's going to be a massive car though. Oh well.

Rockefella

10-13-2006, 01:20 PM

I hope they size it properly. I have a feeling it's going to be a massive car though. Oh well.
I don't think we'll be seeing cars shrink any time soon. :(

Quiggs

10-13-2006, 01:27 PM

I hope they size it properly. I have a feeling it's going to be a massive car though. Oh well.
Grand tourers are supposed to be bigger cars. The article says it's supposed to be smaller than the Panam, but I really don't know what that's going to be comparable to. I'm guessing the Panam will be based on the Quattroporte market? That would put the 2 door in the Ferrari 599/Aston Vanquish size class.

</wild speculation>

Spastik_Roach

10-13-2006, 01:30 PM

Aslong as they don't make a 4 wheel dr......damnit

Quiggs

10-13-2006, 01:32 PM

Aslong as they don't make a 4 wheel dr......damnit
And keep the friggin' weight reasonable!

Egg Nog

10-13-2006, 01:38 PM

Grand tourers are supposed to be bigger cars. The article says it's supposed to be smaller than the Panam, but I really don't know what that's going to be comparable to. I'm guessing the Panam will be based on the Quattroporte market? That would put the 2 door in the Ferrari 599/Aston Vanquish size class.

</wild speculation>

Yeah, I realize that it's going to be a large car no matter what. My hopes were just that it won't be heinously gigantic.

Mr.Tiv

10-13-2006, 02:31 PM

I just hope it doesn't weigh 3 tons.

Rockefella

10-13-2006, 02:35 PM

I just hope it doesn't weigh 3 tons.
That's like AutoXBonne territory, be careful.

Mr.Tiv

10-13-2006, 02:38 PM

That's like AutoXBonne territory, be careful.
Doesn't that have the 3800V6 and weigh like 3600Lbs? Much like the LeSabre I'm driving.

Rockefella

10-13-2006, 02:42 PM

Doesn't that have the 3800V6 and weigh like 3600Lbs? Much like the LeSabre I'm driving.
Normal Bonnevilles do, correct. I drive a limited-edition Auto-X-Bonneville though.

Quiggs

10-13-2006, 02:44 PM

It features a 3800 liter V600 with a 400speed automatic trans.

NSXType-R

10-13-2006, 03:01 PM

It looks pretty cool with Carrera GT wheels.

No seriously, I like the concept, but would they make it faster than the Turbo?

Sounds like it makes no sense, but the way they were wording the article it looks like it will be Porsche's new halo car.

Vindesh17

10-13-2006, 03:25 PM

Not bad, too bad its only a shop.

Gtek-i

10-13-2006, 03:38 PM

looks sweeet...

Mr.Tiv

10-13-2006, 03:41 PM

(In reference to the to the first picture) The rear looks a bit out of place, seems too angular in comparison to the front's curvaceousness.

Kitdy

10-13-2006, 06:19 PM

Those image editors / creators are amazing. The designs they come up are frequently very gorgeous. If the 928 looks like that (I read about it in R&T), it should do fine. And as for the weight, it IS a Porsche. They like light things usually. And I think it will be really sweet for Porsche to have a GT again. They will have quite the lineup by then, hopefully the next gen supercar too.

092326001

10-13-2006, 06:26 PM

i read the exact article a few days ago
hope thay make
but i hope it doesn't looks so extravagant
as long as the only thing that's similar with cayenne is a badge and engine then it'll be pretty nice
i hope its not continental gt-ish with too much bulk
i'm hoping for a supercharged engine

now all they need is a new 914 and 944/924
and they should get rid of cayenne and panamera

Vaigra

10-13-2006, 06:50 PM

(In reference to the to the first picture) The rear looks a bit out of place, seems too angular in comparison to the front's curvaceousness.That's because it's a chop, as has been mentioned earlier. I think exige mentioned it was a DB9 rear earlier on.

Kitdy

10-13-2006, 06:52 PM

A new 944 would be sweet. I am deeply divided over the last 944. I hate and love it. But it is the Porsche that I want to buy in my mid-twenties, no matter how unrealistic this is, as it runs for under $20K CDN.

The_Canuck

10-13-2006, 09:05 PM

928 S...ZO6 destroyer?

PerfAdv

10-13-2006, 09:13 PM

Wow!! This 928 concept makes me feel the same awe and excitement I felt from the original. Unlike most cars where the very first versions are the best looking, the 928 got better and better looking with each restyle. It filled-out nicely and the power in the last versions actually made it seem Porsches top model.

I hope this new car is big. Nothing like a big, loud, imposing GT to part traffic. Make it 612 Scaglietti sized but beefier or a svelter GTO with even more presence and many will beat on Porsche's doors for one, offering up their 6-series and CL AMGs as trades.

Again, gorgeous!!

DesmoRob

10-14-2006, 12:38 AM

928 S...ZO6 destroyer?

If it gets its 500hp then definetly, for more than twice the cost of the Z06 though.

Zeeman28a

11-07-2009, 07:40 AM

Beautiful car.

Lincoln79

04-08-2010, 02:06 AM

I absolutely loved the 928's back in the 80's. They were luxurious yet extremely competent grand touring cars. It is nice to see that Porsche are bringing them back.

Hopefully they will continue the tradition of the original ones by being comfortable, luxurious, smooth, powerful, and posessing amazing grip in the corners.

I can't wait to see the new ones when they come out.

NSXType-R

04-08-2010, 07:53 AM

Wow, this oldie thread brings back some interesting stuff. That really does look like a Panamera missing 2 doors. :D

ScionDriver

04-08-2010, 08:15 AM

Wow, this oldie thread brings back some interesting stuff. That really does look like a Panamera missing 2 doors. :D

Yeah I'm kind of surprised I said I liked this. I'm not so sure I do anymore. Well I guess it was just another rumor, I have heard nothing of this car since this thread.

NSXType-R

04-08-2010, 08:59 AM

Yeah I'm kind of surprised I said I liked this. I'm not so sure I do anymore. Well I guess it was just another rumor, I have heard nothing of this car since this thread.

I liked it then, I still like it now.

PRC777

04-08-2010, 09:49 AM

TheScrutineer

04-08-2010, 09:57 AM

Awesome! Loved the old 928 and this certainly looks great. The Panemera is a good source for underpinnings, now without the hideous proportions and less weight.

pimento

04-08-2010, 03:54 PM

DesmoRob

04-08-2010, 04:00 PM

Wow I totally forgot I'd even posted in this. I was equally excited opening this thread for the second time, 4 years down the road. :o

I really think they should produce this.

NSXType-R

04-08-2010, 04:24 PM

Not bad-looking. Could possibly pass as a Panamera coupe instead of a 928. What do you think the price range of this car would be in if this car were to be in production?
I'd say this would be Porche's first "affordable" coupe, with my guess-timated price range of $29,000-$40,000.

That's way too cheap for a 928. The 928 was the top end model at the time of its day. Expect over $100,000 if Porsche made it again.

Yeah, a modern day 928 would definitely have a big V8 engine, or at least a forced induction V6. A modern day 944 may be that cheap though, it was offered with four bangers.

Wow I totally forgot I'd even posted in this. I was equally excited opening this thread for the second time, 4 years down the road. :o

I really think they should produce this.

They did speculate they're releasing a whole bunch of models, so I'm not surprised if they brought this out. Just hope they're not a whole bunch of crossover SUVs and small SUVs. :D

PRC777

04-08-2010, 06:39 PM

So I admittedly did some more research on the 928 and found out that the car cost ~$28,500 in '78. Can anyone translate this to today's currency rate? Surely, this wouldn't translate to $100,00+ in today's currency standard.

What I'm saying is that I don't think this car would really be over 100K+ if it was made into production, swollen brand name premium price included.

f6fhellcat13

04-08-2010, 08:08 PM

Barely under, but mind you, this is before those infamous German optional extras.

$94,741.08
CPI Inflation Calculator (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)

wwgkd

04-08-2010, 09:19 PM

Car and driver had another rumor of something slotting in under a Boxster, so maybe not a 928 but a 914?

DesmoRob

04-08-2010, 10:57 PM

Car and driver had another rumor of something slotting in under a Boxster, so maybe not a 928 but a 914?

If thats true, then sales volume has truly thrown brand exclusivity off its highchair. Well I guess they already did that with the Cayenne, so the damage is done in a way. I can't get over how many models you can choose from between then cayman, boxster, 911, cayenne and now panamera. There are an absolute f***tonne! They don't need more cars. If you're a middle aged balding man with no legs and an abnormally long neck, they build a Porsche to suit your needs. Where's it all going to end? Porsche isn't a stand alone company anymore, so they don't really need to build cars to sell to the masses in order to raise the capital to produce and sell what they're really known for to the enthusiasts, because they have the backing of VW. That means that introducing a high cost, high performance front engined coupe shouldn't be an issue. Ferrari is constantly backed up on orders for their cars, and they sure as hell don't come cheap. Nor do they build anything that I wouldn't want to be seen in. So why can't Porsche do the same? I'm sure someone has an answer. 500 horse 928 is very acceptable, but anything less than a Boxster is just making the brand more and more available until its just another car. Seeing a Porsche badge around used to be special.

pimento

04-08-2010, 11:18 PM

I'm sure someone has an answer.

Porsche is a larger company than Ferrari, so they have to sell more volume to vaildate their continued existance as they currently are. Also there's a precedence to a 'cheap' Porsche, a la 914, 924.. etc. Not sure how they'd work out to current market levels though, would the Boxter be about that or is that now a little higher than the 924?

I have an answer for most things... :D Seeing a Porsche badge used to be special because they used to be in real trouble financially...

culver

04-09-2010, 05:47 AM

I think the bigger difference between Porsche and Ferrari is that Porsche is a company that makes money selling cars and some engineering services. Ferrari is a company that, like Harley Davidson, makes money selling merchandising. The cars probably don't do much better than break even but they are necessary to keep the value of the name such that people will buy Ferrari branded merchandise.

LeonOfTheDead

04-09-2010, 10:44 AM

Don't remember the precise figures for Ferrari, but the merchandising division despite being impressive was just a fraction of the total incomes. Those cars can be quite cheap to build.

The gained 4 M € just selling the sixty 612 Sessanta limited edition cars on top of the regular earnings for sixty 612s.

NSXType-R

04-09-2010, 11:19 AM

I wouldn't mind a 928 to slot above the 911 Turbo. That'd be pretty cool actually.

And then a 944 under the Boxster maybe, with a turbo 4.

Kitdy

04-09-2010, 12:03 PM

I wouldn't mind a 928 to slot above the 911 Turbo. That'd be pretty cool actually.

And then a 944 under the Boxster maybe, with a turbo 4.

A 928 would not really slot above a 911 Turbo - it would be different. I know the 911 Turbo is kinda Porsche's GT, but a 928 could be more GTish and luxurious and livable with a naturally aspirated V8 sourced from the Cayenne.

A 944 below the Boxster could potentially share a badge engineered version with VW and even Audi - so that wouldn't be too cool.

Ferrer

04-09-2010, 12:31 PM

The 928 was meant to be the 911's successor. So, if it didn't kill it in the 80's it has no place now. It'd really be too much overlapping, even for Porsche. I'm not against an entry level Porsche, as long as it is a dedicated sportscar.

As far as badge, image or lineup problems, well which brand doesn't have it these days. As long as it is interesting and I like it I'd consider it.

LeonOfTheDead

04-09-2010, 02:05 PM

Ferrer

04-09-2010, 02:11 PM

DesmoRob

04-09-2010, 02:21 PM

I personally think that the standard Carrera and Carrera S models already cover quite well the grand tourer end of the spectrum. They aren't as sporty as the GT models or as expensive and fast as turbocharged models. And for many years now they've been the benchmark for medium priced coupes.

Yes an eventual, full four seater front engined V8 coupe may be less focused than a 911 and probably more practical and comfortable too, but there would be at least a bit of overlaping and in any case I personally think that the 911 already covers this market segment quite well.

The 928 would still have its spot competing with M6, CL, 612, etc. It would fit nicely in between the Merc and Ferrari as the Porsche alternative. The legroom in the back would undoubtedly be far more impressive than the 911's, which isn't even noteworthy. Kind of like my TT. The cars may be coupes, but you can forget about using the back for anything other than a sports bag. At least the large coupe segment can actually accommodate more travelers while still being sporty.
I think the Boxster is as entry level as Porsche should get. 911 purists would get too confused, being used to calling Boxster drivers "too poor for a 911." A new 914 would totally throw them off :D:p

Ferrer

04-09-2010, 02:31 PM

DesmoRob

04-09-2010, 03:14 PM

Possibly, but in any case if Porsche would be let free to engineer a new 914 it'd probably be a brilliant car, a worthy alternative to the Mazda MX-5. And who cares if it would be the poor man's poor man's Porsche.

Creating competition for the MX5 could be as simple as detuning the current Boxster motor. They could call it the BoxsterminuS. Apart from power they are very similar cars. I think a new 914 could be a great car too, but that is essentially what the Boxster is, am I wrong? Even if they did build an alternative to the Mazda, it'd still have a premium on it for being a Porsche, and that's why people opt for cars like the MX-5 in the first place. Because they can't or don't want to spend the money for the Porsche. They'd have to build a competitor within only a couple of thousand dollars in price difference. Now thats getting scary affordable and thus imo very nonPorsche.
Business is business, but there is a fine line between sales volume/market share and sticking with your philosophies. There has to be some kind of boundary that you don't cross. The awe factor would be nearly eliminated if everyone could afford this brand. Sadly.

LeonOfTheDead

04-09-2010, 03:24 PM

I was going to write basically what Rob did, except that Porsche already crossed that kind of boundary that we hoped they wouldn't have had.

So screw Porsche and get an MX-5, an Elise or just a damn Fiat Barchetta.

Ferrer

04-09-2010, 03:28 PM

I don't know, Porsche has always been mass-producedish sportscar maker. And that exclusivity thing, I personally don't get it. Yes, Porsches carry a premium over other cars, but that's because they are better.

In any case I don't think an eventual entry level Porsche should be a problem. Not when there's the Cayenne.

LeonOfTheDead

04-09-2010, 03:38 PM

Drop the Cayenne (which is now ridiculously ugly), shrink the PanAm into the 928, make the Boxter cheaper, with a smaller engine or two as well.

Then I could turn my head again next time I see a 911.

DesmoRob

04-09-2010, 03:39 PM

In any case I don't think an eventual entry level Porsche should be a problem. Not when there's the Cayenne.

In that sense I could agree. They've already shot themselves in the foot, so since they can't move that foot now it doesn't matter much if it gets shot a few more times. On a personal level, I don't even care what Porsche does anymore. I'm arguing for the sake of what once was, which I admit is futile. So be it, let them toss a V10 in the Routan and rebadge it as a Porsche. I'll stay out of it.

Ferrer

04-09-2010, 03:42 PM

I dislike the Cayenne as much as everyone else here, but I don't think we should overlook all their lineup just for it. As far as I'm concerned they still make some of the best sportscars currently on sale. And the Panamera may be a bit ugly and quite unPorscheish, but it seems it is quite good.

If we really went as far as not buying a car from any manufacturer that has made something pointless or sacrilegious, well we probably couldn't buy any car at all.

LeonOfTheDead

04-09-2010, 03:53 PM

That the same for me, I couldn't bother about Porsche anymore.
In Geneva I didn't even give a decent look (or a look at all) to the new Cayenne, and the only thing I could say about the Boxter Spyder was how laughable was the new soft top, if you can call so that thing. Ridiculous, and they managed to save only 40 kg, which makes it even more of a joke.

The Panamera is just a boat, looking big even next to a Cayenne of the previous gen, and inside it is all about buttons and switches, something surely showy but not really user friendly, and it didn't feel like something really premium, just high-tech-ish at best, like in those cell phones that pretend to do everything, except to go to work for you. Couldn't imagine why to spend that money after I tried the interior of the new XJ, that's an executive sedan! Even the "aging" Quattroporte felt like a better and more special place, but I'm kinda biased on that.

So what's Porsche doing right lately?
Uhm, oh well, uhm... no, the GT3 and GT3 RS are not enough, not anymore, and the last GT2 was even less interesting than the 996 models which were highly criticized for not begin built for homologation purposes.
The Cayman has been basically left out in the cold to preserve the 911, which is like the Peugeot 206, just for richer men. Everyone wants one, especially those who don't know much about cars and need something immediately recognizable by chicks (which may eb the same with some Ferraris, no doubt, still they make more sense to me).

Oh, and that new super-hyper concept car, that's not going to make much of a difference I believe, being also quite too similar to the Carrera GT in my book.

Keep this 928, Jaguar XK for me.

EDIT: Albert, I wouldn't buy a car NOW from a company which is NOW doing something I don't agree with, that's for sure.

NSXType-R

04-09-2010, 04:43 PM

A proper grand tourer from Porsche wouldn't create overlapping I believe. Cheaper than a Continental GT, less sporty than a 911 Turbo and perhaps also less expensive. Basically a PanAm Coupe, just using the sedan as the starting point would result in a big mess. NO thanks.

A dedicated model on the other hand, even with a technical basis shared with the fat pig, well, that may be interested, Porsche and its 911 legacy is getting a bit boring lately.

I agree, the 911 is really just a 2 seater with a parcel shelf, so it shouldn't conflict too much.

I personally think that the standard Carrera and Carrera S models already cover quite well the grand tourer end of the spectrum. They aren't as sporty as the GT models or as expensive and fast as turbocharged models. And for many years now they've been the benchmark for medium priced coupes.

Yes an eventual, full four seater front engined V8 coupe may be less focused than a 911 and probably more practical and comfortable too, but there would be at least a bit of overlaping and in any case I personally think that the 911 already covers this market segment quite well.

I honestly think Porsche could pull off a new 914 and a new 928. Unfortunately, they'd probably have to give it a stupid name, like Rectangular Prism or something.

That the same for me, I couldn't bother about Porsche anymore.
In Geneva I didn't even give a decent look (or a look at all) to the new Cayenne, and the only thing I could say about the Boxter Spyder was how laughable was the new soft top, if you can call so that thing. Ridiculous, and they managed to save only 40 kg, which makes it even more of a joke.

The Panamera is just a boat, looking big even next to a Cayenne of the previous gen, and inside it is all about buttons and switches, something surely showy but not really user friendly, and it didn't feel like something really premium, just high-tech-ish at best, like in those cell phones that pretend to do everything, except to go to work for you. Couldn't imagine why to spend that money after I tried the interior of the new XJ, that's an executive sedan! Even the "aging" Quattroporte felt like a better and more special place, but I'm kinda biased on that.

So what's Porsche doing right lately?
Uhm, oh well, uhm... no, the GT3 and GT3 RS are not enough, not anymore, and the last GT2 was even less interesting than the 996 models which were highly criticized for not begin built for homologation purposes.
The Cayman has been basically left out in the cold to preserve the 911, which is like the Peugeot 206, just for richer men. Everyone wants one, especially those who don't know much about cars and need something immediately recognizable by chicks (which may eb the same with some Ferraris, no doubt, still they make more sense to me).

Oh, and that new super-hyper concept car, that's not going to make much of a difference I believe, being also quite too similar to the Carrera GT in my book.

Keep this 928, Jaguar XK for me.

EDIT: Albert, I wouldn't buy a car NOW from a company which is NOW doing something I don't agree with, that's for sure.

They seem to be doing it best though. Porsche seems to be the most sports oriented of all the marques, and the cool thing is that it's relatively affordable. The Boxster is pretty damn good. Don't like the Boxster? Get the Cayman.

LeonOfTheDead

04-09-2010, 05:51 PM

They seem to be doing it best though. Porsche seems to be the most sports oriented of all the marques, and the cool thing is that it's relatively affordable. The Boxster is pretty damn good. Don't like the Boxster? Get the Cayman.

I'm my book there are quite a few brands which are doing better than Porsche. Starting with Lotus all the way up to Ferrari, Aston Martin and even Lamborghini (which I don't like). If you want cheaper brands, I think that even Audi is doing better among its portfolio, except for the Q5 apparently outselling the Q7.
Yep, they have two SUVs and not only that's a minor problem than having an SUV from the same company who built the GT3 RS, but they also quite improved the TT, the R8 is indeed an excellent rip-off of the Gallardo and the A5 is doing a good job. And I don't like either of those, but it's definitely a good line up considering the brand.

Porsche on the other hand is focused only on the 911 as if it was its favorite child, and on the cash cows, mainly the Cayenne.

Surely the Boxter is relatively cheap and an excellent car, and so is the Cayman, but especially the latter feels so much "under developed" considering how much attention the 911 gets from Porsche.
I wouldn't say they are doing their best because the main innovation or new stuff lately are on the wrongest models in their line up.

If they were to drop even only one version of the 911 to build a proper Boxter Speedster or even a Cayman RS, it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

The Panamera was showed off all around the world during the testing years, while people forgot the Cayman which eventually is just too expensive for what you get, even more considering what others offer.

I could see Porsche enlarging its line up, somehow fine. On the other hand the design language is getting older and older, in my opinion, boring and way too conservative even from a company which has the same bodywork on production from the last 40 years, and the target of those new models is mainly (mainly) made out of show offers, posers, douches of various kinds.
Which is also why I don't like BMW either, even less after the X6 and the X M models.

If making only sportscars isn't remunerative for them, perhaps they need to change their approach to the business, but that doesn't mean everything is allowed, otherwise what's the point of having a brand in first place, and its heritage? Not saying you should always stick to the tradition, but there is a line not to be crossed.

Generally companies not present in a market they are now interested, tend to buy a company from that market or to establish a new dedicated one.
Like Audi (VW) buying Lamborghini rather than selling a 200.000 € Golf. Don't ask about a 60.000 € SUV from the People's brand though. Or like Toyota establishing Lexus.

Kitdy

04-09-2010, 06:42 PM

Leon, Porsche's products are all excellent for what they are though - and excellent when viewed in a general scoope (maybe barring the Cayenne - SUVs are weak). The Cayman/Boxster are some of the best handling cars in the world and have been staples on Car and Driver's 10Best in recent years - for what that's worth. The 911 is a classic - the base models are fantastic, the GT3 is a driver's dream, the Turbo is an icon and the GT2 a super rare hybrid between a sledgehammer and a scalpel.

The Panamera by all accounts I've read is superb and highly competitive, if not the class leader. It's problem is it's ugly ass, but if you get past that and realize how practical it is compared to a "4 door coupe" like a CLS then I think it's clear it's a perfect interpretation of what a Porsche sedan should be.

What I fear about Porsche is a VW merger screwing shit up. I was glad to see that there were setback in the merging process that could see a takeover take until past 2011 - still largely inevitable but I retain some hope that Porsche remains independent somehow.

All in all though, I think the Porsche lineup is extremely solid right now.

clutch-monkey

04-09-2010, 07:17 PM

the cayman is quite dull and under-utlised right now, if that's the right word. they really need to liven it up a little, maybe do some extreme RS model. why worry about the 911? that car is a 2+2 with essentially a different user base, and the sales all come back to porsche anyway.
after having a cayman as a courtesy car (yawn), a brief stint behind the wheel of the APR tuned example was a night and day difference, imo.

LeonOfTheDead

04-10-2010, 05:12 AM

I basically meant what Clutch said, half of the Cayman success comes from what people hoped from it, then there surely is someone who actually like it and that's far enough with me. I don't even think the Boxter is still so much better than the competition as it was with the first gen when basically it had no competition, and it also costs a lot more.

I used to like both the Cayman and the Boxter, but I don't think I'd buy either of them new, perhaps a second hand model at a much lower price. Otherwise, a 370Z (random pick) should do it. Those two Porsches lack something, spice probably.

The 911 may be a good car, an excellent car, not discussing that, but it's like Golf, it became average because of its own market. You get slightly rich, you want a status symbol car, 911 for you. That's the same with the more expensive Ferrari, but the point is that a lot more people buy the 911 just because "everyone does it" than those who buy a F430 or whatever models Ferrari is selling in that moment.
Not only that, but you're not getting much exclusivity with a Porsche as they think.

People and journalists keep comparing everything on earth with the 911, and if it's not faster (and what does this mean?), it's not worth it.

Recently I saw a review of the Spyker Aileron by Autocar I think, from UK.
I have no doubt the Spyker isn't as fast as a 911 (perhaps not that base model) on a track, but the argument "for this money I want something faster than the 911" is just pure journalism BS. Spyker correctly says those who buy a Spyker don't care about these things, and I can totally see that, just because they are both two sportscars, two coupes and both with about 400 bhp it doesn't mean they have something else in common, let alone the same market.
Not going to call Rolls Royce in the game, but I also don't think those who buy a 911 Turbo would have bought a TVR Sagaris, for instance.

That's what makes me dislike Porsche on top of what they are doing (Cayenne, not developing the Cayman to its possibilities, etc), it's boring. An awesome car as the AM V8 Vantage has been slammed by many because "it's slower than the 911 S"...who cares?!

And the Panamera isn't that more much comfortable or whatever you want, the Quattroporte feels better and looks better. It may be slower, but I couldn't bother less about that.
I honestly felt I was wasting my time checking it, the only other expensive car that disappointed me so much was the Phantom, but I never thought to be the RR type so it was OK.

Ferrer

04-10-2010, 05:22 AM

Keep this 928, Jaguar XK for me.
That much I agree. Except for the lack of a proper gearbox.

But then if we don't buy cars from companies which make things we don't like, what can buy? Can we buy anything at all right now?

One of my favourite car companies right now is Jaguar. They've somehow managed to stay from the trend of making everything worse, heavier, more complicated and SUVish. That's been in no doubt helped Land Rover, but still well done Jaguar. However the cheapest Jag sells for 50 grand. What if you don't have that amount of money or what a different kind of car?

Where are you going to go? A BMW? No, they make SUVs and M-branded SUVs. A Mercedes-Benz? Same as bimmers? And Audi? Well they are Audis so that automatically counts them out. A Volvo? SUViness all the way. A Saab? I don't want a Vectra. An Alfa Romeo? Don't want to buy poshed-up Fiats. A Lancia? Same as Alfa. A Lexus? Hybrid nonsense, no thanks. An Infiniti? Their SUVs are even more useless than usual.

And if you have more money to spend you are facing similar problems. A Ferrari? No, I don't want to be associated with brand bought exclusively by people who don't care about cars and let's not get started on the California special-Desperate-Housewives-edition. An Aston Martin? Maybe firing the entire design department and replacing it by fotocopier wasn't such a brilliant idea. A Lamborghini? If I want an Italian Audi that breaks down all the time I'll let you know. A Bentley? Yes, I know they had to get the investment back on the Phaeton but the Continental wasn't necessary.

The thing is, there's plenty wrong within the automotive world nowadays. Probably up to 95% of it. But that shouldn't prevent us from enjoying the other 5% that is still right, and very right at that. At least let's enjoy before they take it away completely.

Leon, Porsche's products are all excellent for what they are though - and excellent when viewed in a general scoope (maybe barring the Cayenne - SUVs are weak). The Cayman/Boxster are some of the best handling cars in the world and have been staples on Car and Driver's 10Best in recent years - for what that's worth. The 911 is a classic - the base models are fantastic, the GT3 is a driver's dream, the Turbo is an icon and the GT2 a super rare hybrid between a sledgehammer and a scalpel.

The Panamera by all accounts I've read is superb and highly competitive, if not the class leader. It's problem is it's ugly ass, but if you get past that and realize how practical it is compared to a "4 door coupe" like a CLS then I think it's clear it's a perfect interpretation of what a Porsche sedan should be.

What I fear about Porsche is a VW merger screwing shit up. I was glad to see that there were setback in the merging process that could see a takeover take until past 2011 - still largely inevitable but I retain some hope that Porsche remains independent somehow.

All in all though, I think the Porsche lineup is extremely solid right now.
This.

NSXType-R

04-10-2010, 07:19 AM

I agree with what Ferrer and Kitdy said. All the latest manufacturers have gone off on trends, based on sportiness and purity of the brand, I would say Porsche's got it down pretty tight.

I mean, Volvo even flat out said it wouldn't be doing wagons. If GM and Honda, both wagon averse (in the US market) decides to put out wagons, there has to be a market for it or else they wouldn't be there.

I think that's one of the worse decisions ever- Volvo's always made quirky wagons, that's like Subaru saying they're only going to use inline 4 and inline 6 engines. That's not what the brand stands for.

And I wonder- what would happen if you stuck an inline 6 at the rear of a 911? That's be pretty awkward.

Kitdy

04-10-2010, 12:46 PM

And I wonder- what would happen if you stuck an inline 6 at the rear of a 911? That's be pretty awkward.

It wouldn't fit.

Ruf is putting a V8 in the back of one though.

NSXType-R

04-10-2010, 01:59 PM

It wouldn't fit.

Ruf is putting a V8 in the back of one though.

I know, it'd change the whole dimensions of the car. It'd just be a funny idea.

I thought it was a flat 8?

Commodore GS/E

04-10-2010, 02:20 PM

The Panamera is just a boat

The Panamera may be ugly, but it's not a boat. I mean, lapping the Nürburgring faster than a CTS-V doesn't come from nothing. The new gen Cayenne then looks MUCH better than the previous gens (which, to be honest, looked awful). I still don't loke it, but as long as it sells and enables Porshe to build it's sports cars, i won't bother.
Then the Cayman. I think Porsche gave a huge chance away here by 1) making it that expensive and 2) don't tweak the engine to the maximum of power just to preserve the 911. I mean a guy that wants to buy a 911 won't buy a Cayman. What you can't deny is that the Cayman is about the best handling car of it's class. It's only problem is a lack of power (at least for the base Cayman).
The Boxster then is a whole different game. I saw the Boxster Spyder at an auto show a few weeks ago, and I have to say I really liked it. If you consider how light the base car is, saving 40 kg is a huge deal. Not to mention the good handling. The first gen may have been a bit of a handful, but the recent one is actually pretty good.

A new 928 then sounds fine to me. Don't see any cross-shopping-problems with the 911, as the 928 would be a GT layout and therefore more of a cruiser than a racer. The upcoming Porsche Spyder (entry level, around 34k Euro over here) with it's new flat four engine could also solve the problem of a 968 sucessor, while the 918 will replace the Carrera GT. I think Porsche is doing right so far. As Ferrer said: just enjoy the small parts of the automotive world that aren't completely wrong yet.

Kitdy

04-10-2010, 03:14 PM

I thought it was a flat 8?

No, it's a V8 (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/03/geneva-2010-ruf-rgt-8-v8-porsche-911/).

That car interests me.

Ferrer

04-10-2010, 03:25 PM

The Panamera may be ugly, but it's not a boat. I mean, lapping the Nürburgring faster than a CTS-V doesn't come from nothing. The new gen Cayenne then looks MUCH better than the previous gens (which, to be honest, looked awful). I still don't loke it, but as long as it sells and enables Porshe to build it's sports cars, i won't bother.
Just a small comment. Porsche was already profitable before the Cayenne. They had a dark period in the early and mid nineties with aging models and no replacements in sight, with the 993 and 968, but the Boxster was the car which saved Porsche and brought it back to the black. The Cayenne, developed much later was just a case of greed like the later Volkswagen takeover intent.

Porsche didn't really need the money or the volume. They just wanted more for the sake of actually having it. And the chose an SUV, which represents just about everything that's wrong with the automotive world nowadays. So the Cayenne really has no excuse at all.

Thier other cars though, are very competent and should be, at least, considered by all car enthusiats if their in the market for such a car.

Kitdy

04-10-2010, 03:28 PM

So the Cayenne really has no excuse at all.

There is - they are a business. Their goal is to maximize profit for their shareholders.

With the Cayenne, they did so, and at the cost of minimal damage to other sales.

I would still buy a 911 or Cayman if I wanted one even if I thought the Cayenne was a piece of shit - the brand name didn't take a big hit.

We talk the talk about Porsche being worse off with the Cayenne, but if you had the money to buy a Porsche and wanted one before the Cayenne was released, I doubt it woulda changed your mind.

Ferrer

04-10-2010, 03:34 PM

Theor sportscars are as good as ever, we agree on that. But we are not Porsche employees, or shareholders or even stakeholders. On that basis I'm not concerned if the profit is 50 million or 500 million. We look at car companies from en enthusiast's point of view, and with Porsche already being profitable before the Cayenne, for us, the Cayenne has no excuse.

If I personally ran a car company that was already profitable I certainly would make an SUV a truck or something similar just because it would bring more money.

clutch-monkey

04-10-2010, 03:53 PM

No, it's a V8 (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/03/geneva-2010-ruf-rgt-8-v8-porsche-911/).

That car interests me.

a longer, taller engine in the back.. that will be interesting to see.

NSXType-R

04-10-2010, 04:45 PM

No, it's a V8 (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/03/geneva-2010-ruf-rgt-8-v8-porsche-911/).

That car interests me.

V8 it is then. :D

a longer, taller engine in the back.. that will be interesting to see.

How would you fit that behind the rear axle?

clutch-monkey

04-10-2010, 04:49 PM

longer tail? magic? i dunno.

pimento

04-11-2010, 01:57 AM

No, it's a V8 (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/03/geneva-2010-ruf-rgt-8-v8-porsche-911/).

That car interests me.

No, it's a 180 degree flatcrank V8.

The 180-degree, flatcrank V8 is apparently custom designed by Ruf and comes complete with titanium connecting rods, a dry-sump lubrication system and spherical heads.

clutch-monkey

04-11-2010, 04:58 AM

No, it's a 180 degree flatcrank V8.

this is relevant to my interests

cayman with pumped guards and this in the back? yes please

NSXType-R

04-11-2010, 06:59 AM

No, it's a 180 degree flatcrank V8.

Aha! I thought it wasn't a V8, but that's not exactly a flat 8 either. :D

pimento

04-11-2010, 07:23 AM

Well, it is a flat 8.. it's just not a boxer 8. See also: the Ferrari flat V-12 that's not a boxer that was in the boxer/testarossa.

culver

04-11-2010, 04:31 PM

Well, it is a flat 8.. it's just not a boxer 8. See also: the Ferrari flat V-12 that's not a boxer that was in the boxer/testarossa.

Looking at the link it appears to be a V8 with a flat crank. I think what you are thinking of is the difference between say a boxer 12 and a flat V12.

pimento

04-11-2010, 06:35 PM

Looking at the link it appears to be a V8 with a flat crank. I think what you are thinking of is the difference between say a boxer 12 and a flat V12.

I figured a 180 degree V8 would be a flat one..?

culver

04-11-2010, 06:41 PM

I figured a 180 degree V8 would be a flat one..?

Nope, different thing. The 180 degree (vs 90) refers to the crank. The block angle is assumed to be 90 (though it doesn't have to be). Instead we are talking about a cross plane vs flat plane crank.
While I would always caution people that the information in the following link is not 100% correct, it is often displayed in an easy to read and understand format.
AutoZine Technical School - Engine (http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm)

pimento

04-11-2010, 07:28 PM

Cross plane vs flat plane I understand, it's the wording/grammar in the article that got me. Now that I've looked at the pictures, I think you're right.

Kitdy

04-11-2010, 07:47 PM

They said 180 degree, flatplane V8. A 180 degree flatplane crank is doubly stated and doesn't make too much sense, so I can see why pimento thought it was a flat 8.

It was poorly worded.

NicFromLA

04-11-2010, 10:03 PM

Lovely. I'll take mine RWD, with Turbos if possible, in blue with a beige interior, PDK is fine by me. Thank you very much.

clutch-monkey

04-11-2010, 11:29 PM

They said 180 degree, flatplane V8. A 180 degree flatplane crank is doubly stated and doesn't make too much sense, so I can see why pimento thought it was a flat 8.

It was poorly worded.

boo i just want a boxer 8

LeonOfTheDead

04-12-2010, 01:58 AM

culver

04-12-2010, 07:36 AM

culver

04-12-2010, 07:38 AM

I never thought it was a flat V8, but I also never checked the article and while in Geneva I completely missed this car, I don't even know where it was displayed. No wonder, as after the first day I asked to my friend if he noticed Abarth's display. It was next to Maserati's, of course I missed it...

BTW, looking at the picture, that does look like a standard V8 engine, so they are likely referring to the crankshaft not even knowing what they are talking about. I'd dare to say the design is somewhat based on a Cayenne engine.

I'm impressed with the changes they made. I wonder if Porsche had a flat crank and cams sitting around for that motor. I don't think a flat crank requires much if anything in the way of block changes but it certainly would require a new crank and cam shafts. That's not a trivial undertaking.