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NAZCA C2
04-04-2004, 07:05 PM
Why is the Mercedes F1 engine such a large peice of poopy? Mercedes is one of the biggest manufacturers in the world and they are getting shown up by Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Jaguar, and Renault. Last year Mclaren was a championship contender and this year they can barely finish a race. Last years engine wasnt the best but it was reliable. MB needs to get its stuff together. Kimi deserves better!

DasModell
04-05-2004, 04:43 AM
i almoast feel sorry for him :)

Alfahollic
04-05-2004, 05:04 AM
Puts a bigger smile on my face every time i see one of those "powerfull" Mclarens expire. :D Like wise with those shithouse BMW powered things. Best they change the rules again so the others can keep up with Ferrari...:p

Ferrari Tifosi
04-05-2004, 11:41 AM
Remember Mercedes themselves don't build the F1 engine, a company they own, Ilmor Engineering, does.

Matra et Alpine
04-05-2004, 11:49 AM
Remember Mercedes themselves don't build the F1 engine, a company they own, Ilmor Engineering, does.
Well actually NONE of the F1 car engines are designed and/or built by the mainstream company. They all have offshoots.
Some are at more arms-length than others.
The buck stops at Norbert Haug and it's time Ron got some gumption and called it as it is. I can't wait till (if!) DC gets signed for another team. I espect he'll then start talking straight and none of the Ron-speak the team has used in the last 5 years !!!!

Matra et Alpine
04-05-2004, 02:22 PM
.... none of the Ron-speak the team has used in the last 5 years !!!!
Dave Richards at BAR is a breath of fresh air in the F1 team locker room :)

Hopefully he'll keep himself "grounded" as the team progresses !!

Maybe all successful F1 teams need a rally-bred manager to succeed - Jean Todt :)

Deckard
04-05-2004, 07:33 PM
I can't wait till (if!) DC gets signed for another team. I espect he'll then start talking straight and none of the Ron-speak the team has used in the last 5 years !!!!

It'll be interesting to see if DC does start telling a few tales about life with Ron and Merc.

How much do you want to bet that DC will have a book out in the not too distant future?

Homem de Gelo
04-06-2004, 05:35 AM
Mercedes sucks, but then, they have never been the same after FIA had to intervene and ban berylium, under the false acusation that it was dangerous and bla-bla-bla.

drakkie
04-06-2004, 07:06 AM
yep , they kinda screwed up this year. I hope for them that the build a better engine for next year.They can keep this engine ,if they blow up that nice as kimi raikonnen in bahrein , for the whole year . :D On a scale from one to ten , it surely is a 9.5. Damn that was a nice one, you dont see them as often anymore. :mad:



_______________________________________________
flying without wings

NAZCA C2
04-06-2004, 11:05 AM
Remember Mercedes themselves don't build the F1 engine, a company they own, Ilmor Engineering, does.

thats true but it say mercedes benz on the valve covers so MB is the one that will be looking stupid when Mclaren finishes near the bottom of the constructors championship and not ilmor.

Ferrari Tifosi
04-06-2004, 11:23 AM
thats true but it say mercedes benz on the valve covers so MB is the one that will be looking stupid when Mclaren finishes near the bottom of the constructors championship and not ilmor.

Very true

Matra et Alpine
04-06-2004, 11:40 AM
....They can keep this engine ,if they blow up that nice as kimi raikonnen in bahrein , for the whole year . :D On a scale from one to ten , it surely is a 9.5. Damn that was a nice one, you dont see them as often anymore. :mad:
Definately, the sight of white hot pieces of metal spewing out the exhaust in that ball of flames was impressive. The ITV commentator mentioned it and wondered how M-B would explain it as NOT being an engine failure :)

DasModell
04-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Mercedes sucks, but then, they have never been the same after FIA had to intervene and ban berylium, under the false acusation that it was dangerous and bla-bla-bla.

well .. actually it is kinda dangerous .. :)

Deckard
04-06-2004, 06:39 PM
yep , they kinda screwed up this year. I hope for them that the build a better engine for next year.They can keep this engine ,if they blow up that nice as kimi raikonnen in bahrein , for the whole year . :D On a scale from one to ten , it surely is a 9.5. Damn that was a nice one, you dont see them as often anymore. :mad:

Yeah, that's the thing with the one engine rule. I miss the sight a $1m engine self destructing.

DasModell
04-06-2004, 07:44 PM
the blow was .... hmm . pretty good .. maybe a 7.5 to 8 .. best two .. McLaren F1 and Porsche 911 GT1 at LeMans ... :) on the mulsanne straight .. :)

Matra et Alpine
04-07-2004, 06:33 AM
enjoy :)

http://www.formula1.com/photos/270x240/tvimages/2004/bahrain/sunpic4.jpg

Coventrysucks
04-07-2004, 07:44 AM
Didn't Mercedes buy out Ilmor last year?

I just hope it is true when Mclaren say it is little things that need improving
Roll on the MP4/19B :(

For the blow up:

Matra et Alpine
04-07-2004, 08:02 AM
Didn't Mercedes buy out Ilmor last year?
Yep, after Ilmor's co-founder Peter Morgan died.
In 2003 DaimlerChrysler AG announced the purchase of the majority shareholding in Ilmor. Mario Illien remains Technical Director and is responsible for the design of the Mercedes-Benz Formula One engines.
personally I rated Morgan at his time at Cosworth and less Illien, maybe that's the case and they're losing the place.
Either way, M-B took the financial helm and corporate leadership SHOUWL have taken them from strength to strength. It hasn't :(


I just hope it is true when Mclaren say it is little things that need improving
Roll on the MP4/19B :(

Nope, they are talking about bringing out a NEW car just as they'd promised last year :)

byronleehk
04-07-2004, 08:52 AM
Well actually NONE of the F1 car engines are designed and/or built by the mainstream company. They all have offshoots.
Some are at more arms-length than others.

I thought I had read somewhere that Ferrari was the only F-1 Team that did the whole package themselves (from design to the chassis to the engine) :confused:

So who's been building the F1 engines for Ferrari? :confused:

Matra et Alpine
04-07-2004, 09:36 AM
I thought I had read somewhere that Ferrari was the only F-1 Team that did the whole package themselves (from design to the chassis to the engine) :confused:

So who's been building the F1 engines for Ferrari? :confused:
Scuderia Ferrari ARE the only team doing it all.
They are a subsidiary of Ferrari S.P.A.
So Ferrari use Scuderia Ferrari to design build and run the F1 team, sorry I should have said that when I mentioned it earlier.
Ferrari DID move some of the chassis design to the UK in the 90s, but I think it all went back to Maranello - can anyone confirm ??

Matra et Alpine
04-07-2004, 10:03 AM
[B]Ferrari DID move some of the chassis design to the UK in the 90s, but I think it all went back to Maranello - can anyone confirm ??
Well I chechked while I was waiting for something else :)
The Ferrari design house setup in the UK at John Barnard's insistence DID continue as B3 Technologies after the split - http://www.b3technologies.com/fset.html
It was one of the craziest moves in F1 in the 90s. Trying to get a team in Maranello to work with a team in the UK was guaranteed to set up rivalries and claims of "we can do better" at each problem. best thing Ferrari did was to take it all back.

Deckard
04-07-2004, 04:49 PM
It was one of the craziest moves in F1 in the 90s. Trying to get a team in Maranello to work with a team in the UK was guaranteed to set up rivalries and claims of "we can do better" at each problem. best thing Ferrari did was to take it all back.

It kind of made sense at the time. Ferrari were struggling and there was no cohesion as a team. Lots of internal politics about what was wrong, who to blame, who should get fired... etc. all very Italian.

John Barnard convinced them to set up a team in the UK using people from the UK so that they would hopefully be more rational i.e. less Italian.

It sort of worked for a while. Ferrari started to get better results and then MS joined the team (with a few of his people behind him) and really improved Ferrari to the team that it is today.

Homem de Gelo
04-08-2004, 09:32 AM
well .. actually it is kinda dangerous .. :)

McLaren and Mercedes actually proved the to FIA that there were no true dangers, but the FIA still didn't change their mind. Just as what happened when McLaren spent the winter season before 1998 developing the special 3rd pedal brake, and FIA followed the entire process and deamed it legal only to ban the special 3rd pedal brake after Interlagos. Or when the Ferraris were not disqualified after Sepang '99, when they were proved to be running illegal barge-boards...

Of course this has nothing to do with Mercedes today, but just goes to show how some decisions by the FIA strangely seem to directly intervene with one team and benefit the other...

Foxbat
04-20-2004, 05:02 AM
McLaren and Mercedes actually proved the to FIA that there were no true dangers, but the FIA still didn't change their mind. Just as what happened when McLaren spent the winter season before 1998 developing the special 3rd pedal brake, and FIA followed the entire process and deamed it legal only to ban the special 3rd pedal brake after Interlagos. Or when the Ferraris were not disqualified after Sepang '99, when they were proved to be running illegal barge-boards...

Well I'm really sorry for Mercedes/Illmor, but... If your engine advantadge lies solely with having better access to a single rare material something is not entirely right. Possibly it would have been better if the FIA had post poned the ban for a year allowing Ferrari to bridge the Be-gap in the final Berrilyum year (it took Ferrari several years to secure a reliable source and learn how to incorporate it) so as to give less of an impression of favoritism. But the fact remains that when forced to compete on a level playing ground the Ilmor engines were second-best at best.
In fact I would go as far as saying that they should be happy they got a couple of years of being unchallenged in the hp department out of their Be-advantadge, rather than sad about how this advantadge was taken from them.

As for the barge-board issue, since this is wildly OT I won't go into it to deeply. But suffice to say that it was the FIA who brought on the intitial DQ and the FIA who argued for the DQ to be upheld. It's not as if they turned a blind eye, they just couldn't make their case stick.


Of course this has nothing to do with Mercedes today, but just goes to show how some decisions by the FIA strangely seem to directly intervene with one team and benefit the other...

It has everything to do with Merc today, the fact that they never fully recovered from losing the Be-advantadge shows they don't have their house in order.

Deckard
04-21-2004, 04:21 PM
From an F1 web site.


Merc boss admits 'we made mistakes'
21/04/04
Mercedes boss Norbert Haug says the reason McLaren are struggling this season is because both the team and their engine supplier took too big a risk for 2004.

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Despite being the first team to begin testing their 2004 car, McLaren have been plagued with reliability problems in the opening three races of the year. And when reliability has been there, speed has not. The overall result is that the team has scored a paltry four points so far.

Although McLaren team boss Ron Dennis has been blamed for the slump in the form, Haug believes it is unfair to put it completely on his shoulders as the problems lie with both the chassis and the engine.

"Yes, we made mistakes," he told Stern magazine. "We have problems with the whole package."

Explaining what he believed the reason for the mistakes was, Haug said: "We wanted to take a giant stride in development and perhaps it was too big."

According to reports McLaren are hoping to introduce a new car and ditch the existing MP4-19 by the German GP in July.

Coventrysucks
04-21-2004, 05:09 PM
According to reports McLaren are hoping to introduce a new car and ditch the existing MP4-19 by the German GP in July.

I think that is the MP4/19B, rather than an entirely new car.
(I hope)

Deckard
04-21-2004, 05:14 PM
For their sake I hope that includes a new engine as well, or else what would be the point if your engine is going to suicide.

Matra et Alpine
04-21-2004, 05:23 PM
I think that is the MP4/19B, rather than an entirely new car.
(I hope)
They may NAME it the 19B but the comments from the team after Bahrain was that they would consider building a completely new car.

Coventrysucks
04-21-2004, 05:56 PM
They may NAME it the 19B but the comments from the team after Bahrain was that they would consider building a completely new car.

Aaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwww, Bloody 'ell :(

When are they going to have the time to do that?
Either completely give up on improving the current car and just get back of the grid results untill July, or develop the two cars at the same time ending up with a compromised new car. :rolleyes:

SORT IT OUT RON!!!!

Matra et Alpine
04-21-2004, 06:09 PM
Aaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwww, Bloody 'ell :(
....SORT IT OUT RON!!!!
He'll get round to it once he has his new pan-galactic headquarters finished and all the windows washed, floors polished and desks cleaned. Oh and after the plants are watered. Oops, nearly forgot he'll have to fill the tea nd coffee machines........

Distracted by his new organisation ? Our Ron ? No, never :rolleyes:

Coventrysucks
04-22-2004, 11:20 AM
Distracted by his new organisation ? Our Ron ? No, never :rolleyes:

To be fair, that isn't really a problem, although it probably doesn't help. :rolleyes:

Sure he is responsible for the F1 team, but he doesn't build the car himself.

It is the designers/ engineers who are responsible, Ron just needs to shout at them more I think. :D

Matra et Alpine
04-22-2004, 12:26 PM
To be fair, that isn't really a problem, although it probably doesn't help. :rolleyes:

Sure he is responsible for the F1 team, but he doesn't build the car himself.

It is the designers/ engineers who are responsible, Ron just needs to shout at them more I think. :D
EVERY succesful organisation is led by it's leader.

When times are good and things are east, poor leaders survive ( look at British industry in the 60s and 70s )
When times are hard and difficult decisions are needed, THEN a true leader shines through.

Ron's a poor excuse for a one-time mechanic a driver and a team leader.
Sorry, he sucks :eek: