VE Failing to excite buyers.

[adrenaline]

"An expensive Dud??"
News.com.au (www.news.com.au)


HOLDEN'S billion-dollar investment in the revamped Commodore has failed to rekindle Australia's love affair with the iconic model, early sales figures indicate.

The new Commodore - Australia's most lavishly produced vehicle - regained its coveted spot as the nation's favourite car during September, its first full month on the market.

But it still recorded little more than half the monthly sales of its heyday.

A recall of some Commodore models last week for a fuel-line problem, and the collapse of contracted parts manufacturer Iron Engineering, were the latest hiccups to hit Holden.

Holden sold 5262 Commodores in September - 4100 of the new model, plus the dregs of left-over old stock.

That was an improvement on recent lean results, but still well short of regular monthly tallies in the 9000 vehicles-plus range just a few years ago.

The all-time monthly record was set in October, 2002, when 9667 Commodores were sold.

Holden dealers and the company itself fiercely deny the new car is an expensive dud, but high petrol prices and stiff competition may make it impossible to regain its former dominance.

Jim Rutherford, who manages the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries' sales database, said Holden might have been a victim of poor timing.

"They probably picked the worst possible time to release an eight-cylinder car, albeit a relatively efficient one," he said.

Sales of small cars have boomed in the past year as buyers downsize to more fuel-efficient models.

Ford has announced production cutbacks for its Falcon, the Commodore's traditional rival, in response to a slide in sales of big passenger cars.

Mitsubishi's 380 has also failed to deliver on expected sales, and Toyota last week launched its Aurion V6, another competitor in the large-car segment.

Wayne Pearson, managing director of industry consultants Horwath Motor Industry Services said Holden dealers were "not out there slashing their wrists". Sales had been slower than expected, however.

Mr Pearson said the days of dominant "category killers" like the old Commodore might be over, with consumers slower to commit to new models.

Philip Brook, Holden's marketing manager for large cars and SUVs, agreed buyers were slower to sign up to new models.

Fleet buyers, in particular, were taking time to adjust to the new Commodore, he said.
But Mr Brook said Holden was pleased with the initial response and expected strong results in coming months.

Sales of luxury Commodores were healthy, with waiting lists for models such as the Calais.

I think everybody saw this coming, but only 4100 VE's sold is terrible for a brand new model. Maybe it will pick up in the coming months, but for now it is looking bleak.

[pimento]

I'm still wondering why they don't have the Astra VXR/OPC in as an HSV model to take on the Focus XR5.. something new in a segment of the market that's expanding, rather than pinning hopes on a failing segment and cheap daewoo knock-offs. Doesn't seem like an overly productive market strategy really.

[adrenaline]

Actually they do.

http://www.hsv.com.au/index_eseries.asp?link=cars/eseries/vxr.asp

[nota]

I'd recently read about VE's undewhelming initial sales numbers. A principal factor cited was that Holden has with VE reduced its traditional factory discounts available to fleet buyers, which on VZ were 29% iirc! Apparently Holden are shifting their sales emphasis from fleets, to chasing higher profit margins via private buyers. However this is described as a risky tactic at best, as Ford tried a similar thing and failed miserably with its AU Falcon model

Overall, it seems imho that the Govt's decision to reduce import tariffs has delivered the worst predictions that were widely forecast to result from these tariff reductions ..

Holden's VE sales are mediocre
Ford is reducing production and workforce, it longer term future looking vulnerable
Mitsubishi is dead in the water and one step from disaster
Even Toyota's local production would not be viable without exports

Will Australia have an automotive manufacturing industry in ten years?

[pimento]

Actually they do.

http://www.hsv.com.au/index_eseries.asp?link=cars/eseries/vxr.asp


Ahh, well... good. :D

Australia probably doesn't have a hope of being a major production base for automotive parts, when it's cheaper to import them rather than make them them locally, you'd have to be nuts to do it. Just look at England, more and more things are moving offshore - but what remains is the engineering nouce and know-how. That's what should be being encouraged around here, get some proper decision making happening here and such. Hell, we're just not set up for primary production like this. For instance: if you buy gas in the northern parts of WA, it's been mined off the coast to the north, transported all the way down to Perth, then transported all the way back again. Why aren't the processing plants up there? It's a little nuts, surely it's cheaper to process it next to the source and transport it from there.

Well, I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but it seems you're on the money there nota. The industry doesn't really have a hope if the smart economic moves are pushing production offshore as they are.

[nota]

Hell, we're just not set up for primary production like this. For instance: if you buy gas in the northern parts of WA, it's been mined off the coast to the north, transported all the way down to Perth, then transported all the way back again. Why aren't the processing plants up there? It's a little nuts, surely it's cheaper to process it next to the source and transport it from there.
Heard recently on the ABC Country Hour than 80% of Australia's total water runoff occurs in the North where it is truly massive, yet a similar percentage of our agriculture is farmed in the dry South

As you said, that's nuts - especially in the world's driest inhabited continent. More than ever we need a major serve of 'nation building' plus a big dose of 'that vision thing' ..

[pimento]

The problem is there's so much room up there, and little more to effectively do with it than either dig it up and try to find things in it, or try to grow things ineffciently and ineffectively. Or get eaten by the wildlife, but that's only fun for so long.

[fpv_gtho]

but what remains is the engineering nouce and know-how. That's what should be being encouraged around here, get some proper decision making happening here and such.



Its already happening. Ford are responsible for the next generation Ranger (known as the Courier here since its introduction) and might even have more on their plate. They'll also be adapting Orion for global use now that they'll be involved with other LHD projects.

Holden just finished VE, which US wants and Europe is looking at also. They'd also be first in line if GM decide to go with a small/medium sized RWD platform.

The big problem i see is both Holden and Ford perhaps have their manufacturing plants setup for too high a level of output. Ford manufacture about 100k units a year, whilst Holden do about 150K. Having a look at overseas, Europe has alot of plants which will only do 100K tops. Ford are doing that on just a single shift.

[#3 Tasman Bloke]

If an Australian car that was really anticipated for 1 year was not making sales, it would be the end of the world. If you see the V8 Supercar Championship and if Rick Kelly would win it, MAYBE that would boost Commodore sales. Anyway, if a car was much loved by Bob Lutz it sure would give Holden a boost
If you want to see it go to a good website, maybe www.holden.com.au.

[fpv_gtho]

I dont think people are that shallow

[adrenaline]

If an Australian car that was really anticipated for 1 year was not making sales, it would be the end of the world. If you see the V8 Supercar Championship and if Rick Kelly would win it, MAYBE that would boost Commodore sales. Anyway, if a car was much loved by Bob Lutz it sure would give Holden a boost
If you want to see it go to a good website, maybe www.holden.com.au.

The end of the world is upon us.

Lutz drove the Commodore and he loved it. He went as far as saying it was the best sedan GM has ever produced.

You also have to understand that the majority of the members that regularly post here in the Australian forums are intelligent people that follow the auto industry quite carefully, especially regarding the VE Commodore. In fact there have been discussions of the VE in these forums for well over a year now. With that in mind, assume that we all know Holden's web address.

[clutch-monkey]

You also have to understand that the majority of the members that regularly post here in the Australian forums are intelligent people that follow the auto industry quite carefully, especially regarding the VE Commodore. With that in mind, assume that we all know Holden's web address.
speak for yourself.
:p:D

[adrenaline]

speak for yourself.
:p:D

OK, there are a few exceptions on the point about intelligence (I have an IQ of 43).

[nota]

The big problem i see is both Holden and Ford perhaps have their manufacturing plants setup for too high a level of output. Ford manufacture about 100k units a year, whilst Holden do about 150K. Having a look at overseas, Europe has alot of plants which will only do 100K tops. Ford are doing that on just a single shift.
That's odd because in the recent past it used to be that the opposite held true - for a plant to be viable it needed a critical-mass of 80-100,000 units to be solidly profitable & pay for its future - and especially so for 'one-model car companies' like Ford Oz eg with their unique local product, that shares little componentry including engine/trans etc with any other Ford models ..

[2ndclasscitizen]

Interesting that the last sentence was pointing out that there's a waiting list for a Calais. Seriously, if I read one more "motoring" article from some useless journalist I'm going to scream. Oh no, Commy sales are down on 2002 levels?! All bloody large car sales have been down since then genius.

[adrenaline]

Interesting that the last sentence was pointing out that there's a waiting list for a Calais. Seriously, if I read one more "motoring" article from some useless journalist I'm going to scream. Oh no, Commy sales are down on 2002 levels?! All bloody large car sales have been down since then genius.

Yes, but Holden has repeated many times that the decline is a result of older vehicles on the market. They said leading up to the VE launch that the new Commie would refresh the segment, bringing all the buyers back to large cars. So far it hasn't. (Well, it's only been a month!)

I'm not at all surprised that the Calais has a waiting list. I've been a Ford supporter since a pretty young age, but the Calais is just so good that even I would join the list to get one.

[2ndclasscitizen]

So far it hasn't. (Well, it's only been a month!)
Exactly

[fpv_gtho]

That's odd because in the recent past it used to be that the opposite held true - for a plant to be viable it needed a critical-mass of 80-100,000 units to be solidly profitable & pay for its future - and especially so for 'one-model car companies' like Ford Oz eg with their unique local product, that shares little componentry including engine/trans etc with any other Ford models ..

Its been like that locally, and perhaps the situation where we have unique models makes us and Europe incomparable, but IMO if Broadmeadows for instance, needed to go at 100% output, they could turn out 200K units per year. As i said though, other European plants at 100% will only do half of that. Surely theres something to be read into that, perhaps Ford's plant is too big for its own good.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Never let the facts get in the way of proving a point.

A huge push recently has been the scare mongering surrounding sales of large cars. Rising fuel prices have put a strain on the industry, but if you need a commodore your going to buy one regardless.

It's just annoying when the journalists try to "I Told You So" the public by making articles like this.

[adrenaline]

Does anyone agree that the quality of automotive journalism has declined in recent times? I mean some of the stuff that GoAuto, Drive and Carsguide (among others) publish is just garbage.

[SlickHolden]

Yes journalism is crap right now they should be backing up there local instead of trying too shit bag or make them out too be dead.

3 things get me.
1: The VE is far from shit in-fact it's ****en good.
2: It or anything else will never sell like the VT.
3: It's early days i have seen plenty of them around. Just seen a Walkinshaw enhanced one just like in the book 20" rims lowered and S/C.

But i said this on the ford forum holden and ford shouldn't change what they do best, in 3-4 years both will be kicking Aurions fuel economy easy and both will have 6 speed across the board with smaller capacity engines and diesel too offer, Don't give up large cars will always been a wanted vehicle.
But there is nothing wrong with looking into mid size falconCommodores.

[Mr. Jinx]

On the topic of smaller capacity engines, I'd like to see Holden utilize the 2.8L Turbocharged HFV6 as per the Saab 9-3 Aero. It's got slightly more power and torque, but loses almost a litre of displacement to the current 6-banger. Surely this would sway some buyers over to the VE, not that there would be a huge fuel economy difference. People who aren't in the automotive scene are probably scared of anything high-displacement, when fuel economy comes into play.

Also, Drive.com was saying that a few VEs have been taken over to the UK for assessment.
I'd love to see Jeremy Clarkson behind a V8 VE :D

[crisis]

Jim Rutherford, who manages the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries' sales database, said Holden might have been a victim of poor timing.

"They probably picked the worst possible time to release an eight-cylinder car, albeit a relatively efficient one," he said.

Sales of small cars have boomed in the past year as buyers downsize to more fuel-efficient models.

They “picked”. I would have thought that they were probably committed to the release date long before petrol prices went through the roof. And I think the standard model is a 6.
In any case car companies should not be short sighted enough to panic after a few months of high fuel costs. Let’s see what happens when everyone calms down with the lower fuel prices and realises it was another scare.
Then you can go out and buy a cheap second hand 4 cyl!


Mitsubishi's 380 has also failed to deliver on expected sales, and Toyota last week launched its Aurion V6, another competitor in the large-car segment.

The Mitsubishi 380 "failed to deliver"! Well at lease that was no change for Mitsubishi. What does it have to do with Holden? The Aurion is not in Commodore and Falcons segment.

[fpv_gtho]

Does anyone agree that the quality of automotive journalism has declined in recent times? I mean some of the stuff that GoAuto, Drive and Carsguide (among others) publish is just garbage.

Drive and Carsguide have always been....sub-par to be politically correct. Realistically, look at Wheels for a review, and if you want to see a little more performance, look at Motor, although theyve been criticised over their journalism as well, but theyre actually a dedicated automotive mag like Wheels, not just an extra 5 pages of the Herald every morning.

[2ndclasscitizen]

The only real criticism of MOTOR I've seen has been about the casual writing style they use, but I kinda like it. And people whinge that they love Holden's, but they give them a big serve when they're not up to standard

[SlickHolden]

I have seen a increase of cars converting too a V8 over the years even with large fuel price increase, Guy just had a LS2 installed into his VN looks like a sleeper. Look at me i want the L67 i want too go up. I think some panic too much when it's large engine large car, Automatically means bad economy heavy as hell, This is really not the case as it was once.
Example's.

Brother 2 cars.
94 EFII Fairmont.... 4lt 180kw+ Not stock 14l/100 average. 1430kg Guess.
03 BA Fairmont...... 4lt 182kw Stock, 12l/100 Average. 1600kg guess.
Toss in the new BF II 10.7l/100 even better.

My car Vs VE.
92 VP Commodore..... 3.8lt 140kw + Not stock 14.5l/100 Average. 1330kg.
06 VE Commodore..... 3.6lt 180kw Stock, 10.9l/100 Average. 1600kg Guess.

Going by that bigger is better:D. People need too open there eyes more if there not picking a large cars because it's bad on fuel there ignoring it and thats very wrong, If there ignoring it because they need a smaller car and don't have the need for a large capacity more powerful engine there going against a large car with the right idea and thats there needs. Even people that don't want them because they dont like them is better them someone that says there big bad on fuel ignorant that is it's far from it now. And if holden and Ford can land a lump of shit on Toyota's 4 cyl Camry with it's mediocre fuel economy they should.
Don't listen too people that think large cars are dead and V8's are also, People always wont them and sure the number might have grown smaller but they can work around it the market still wants large cars but people are scared, And when there little 4 banger blows a engine because they have driven a 6 or 8 all there liefs and they wonder why the answer is simple.

[SlickHolden]

http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,20628657-5003140,00.html

Holden VE Commodore fuel economy drive



Holden VE GTS: what the big V8 loses on fuel economy, it makes up with muscle.
23 October 2006

Samantha Stevens

TAKE a bunch of SS VE and SV6 VE performance Holdens and drive them as frugally as possible. We're not joking.

The orange V8 seemed to fuse with the dusty red ochre of the country dirt road. Up ahead, a stray cow plodded along the centre of the thoroughfare, all angular haunches and indignantly upswept tail, completely blocking the narrow road.

One drop of a clutch, and this bovine stop sign would have been left in the dust. But for once, the motor-writing fraternity was showing some restraint. Not an ounce of fuel could be wasted.

The Holden Economy Drive has become an annual pilgrimage from Sydney's CBD to the heart of the Gold Coast — arriving just in time for the Indy 300 race weekend.

From Sydney peak-hour traffic, through suburbia and back-of-nowhere dirt roads and over the sunny Queensland border, this 1200-or-so-kilometre journey is a competition to find the lightest foot in the business.

And to separate fact from fallacy when it comes to real-world fuel economy.

The new VE Commodore's slight increase in consumption over the previous VZ model fuelled much debate at the recent launch. This was a chance to test models ranging from a dual-fuel V6 to HSV V8s in normal road conditions.

A minimum time and average fuel consumption figure worked as a guide for each car assigned during the two-day journey. But the objective fuel figures seemed wildly optimistic at first.


Could a V8 VE Commodore — with an "official" figure of more than 14 litres per 100km — cover 100km in an hour using less than 10 litres?

We started from Sydney with a VE SV6, which could almost have been mistaken for a V8. An options pack of old-school stripe pack and hexagonal-pattern Holden 19-inch alloys could be blamed for the confusion, making the V6 sports model look almost as imposing as its eight-pot SS sibling.

The SV6 looked and even sounded the goods, with a high-pitched burble emanating from its pipes on the odd occasion when the go-pedal was a given a meaningful prod — although that was a rare occurrence on this trip.

A combination of city, highway and some suburban and country roads in the SV6 returned a fuel figure of just 7.7 litres per 100km, at an average speed of approximately 75km/h.

Looking ahead for traffic, cutting out unnecessary braking or acceleration, and cruising the highway at 1700rpm produced an even better result in the big V8s.

The top-spec SS V achieved just 8.6 litres per 100km with a similar average speed, thanks to a feathered throttle, a wise choice of ratios on the six-speed manual, and a bit of luck with traffic and traffic lights.

The WM Caprice wasn't so lucky with traffic, averaging 10.4 per 100, but at a slightly higher average speed.

The big daddy of performance V8s from the Holden Special Vehicles stable couldn't match the SS V or the Caprice for fuel consumption.

It was loud in every aspect, from its big V8 powerplant to its gnarled, aggressively angular body kit, and driving for economy was marred by a constant craving to sample some of the new GTS's 307kW potential.

Average speed was again closer to the 75km/h mark, with overall consumption coming in at a 10.5 per 100.

But the prize for fuel economy was never going to sit in an HSV trophy cabinet. That went to the dual-fuel VE Commodore.

Factory-fitted dual fuel is available on Omega and Berlina V6 models as well as the VZ Executive, Acclaim and Ute range. It costs an additional $1900 after the $2000 government LPG rebate.

Holden's 3.6-litre V6 has been factory adapted to run both LPG and unleaded petrol, with the engine mimicking the petrol response while using the efficient gas alternative.

Power and torque figures stand at 175kW and 325Nm (10kW and 5Nm less than the petrol-only model), and fuel economy is 16 litres per 100km on LPG, and 11.7 per 100 on petrol.

This enables more than 1100km of travel before needing to refuel both 73-litre tanks. A full tank of LPG would be good for about 450km, yet cost about $38 to fill — less than half the cost of the standard petrol tank.

Disadvantages are a 100kg heavier kerb weight and reduced boot space, but the pros are clear. No amount of lightfoot feathering in any other Holden would save so much at the bowser.

Yet the economy brought back by both V6 and V8 engines (all the cars carried three people, plus a week's worth of luggage and camera gear) was fairly significant.

One thing that ADR fuel figures cannot tell the consumer is what a car like this can achieve on the open road.

The ADR numbers are a combined highway and city figure, and the published figure of 11 litres per 100km for an SV6 or 14.4 for an SS may be a good indication of what to expect.

But use these cars predominantly for highway driving, or simply drive with an eye to economy, and you could find less leakage from your wallet.

Sipping slowly

Driving for economy isn't rocket science. There are several simple (and safety-oriented) measures you can take to reduce fuel consumption and leave your wallet closer to full.

LOOK AHEAD: Drive with your head up, and eyes constantly looking for the traffic ahead. Not only is this safer, it reduces thirsty stop-go acceleration. Anticipate, and back off the gas.

USE THE GEARS: Automatics are becoming lighter and more efficient, but typically they use more fuel than manuals. When driving for economy, stay within the engine's torque band; don't over-rev into peaky, thirsty power.

With an automatic, ease up on the throttle between shifts. As the engine revs high and prepares the change up, a slight lift of the throttle maintains power without wasting fuel as the transmission engages the next gear. This also makes smoother shifts.

DRIVER AIDS: A sport or power button typically heightens engine, gearbox and throttle response. The gears of an automatic will change later to allow higher revs, and the engine becomes more accelerative and eager.

Some programs even cut out top gear altogether. So, where possible, particularly on highway stints, use an economy setting.

Cruise control and speed limiters also help a wandering right foot and improve economy.

SPEED: You go fast, you use more fuel. Enough said.

SERVICE: Regular maintenance will ensure all cylinders are firing efficiently. This is particularly true of diesels, which can claim brilliant fuel economy until the black exhaust reveals the tell-tale signs of unburnt fuel and neglect.

TYRES: Correct tyre pressures will improve fuel economy. Check the tyre plate on your vehicle (usually located on the inside door panel) for the manufacturer's settings, and check the pressures when you refuel to prevent this rolling resistance — particularly if yours is a heavy or load-carrying vehicle. Saves tyre wear, too.

LIGHTEN THE LOAD: It's amazing how a full boot weighs heavily on the fuel bill; remove unnecessary objects. And roof carriers create wind resistance.


The Sunday Telegraph

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Now before people rip this writer to shreds....She contributes to wheels.

[SlickHolden]

HAHAHA there is a guy that thinks it's a bloke who is biased too holden:p Graeme smith i think he thinks this is.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Now before people rip this writer to shreds....She contributes to wheels.
That's actually a good article, surprisingly. SMH is usually better than other newspapers for motoring stuff, but still pretty poor, and I've never been bowled over by Samantha Stevens' writing, but that was a really good article

[SlickHolden]

That's actually a good article, surprisingly. SMH is usually better than other newspapers for motoring stuff, but still pretty poor, and I've never been bowled over by Samantha Stevens' writing, but that was a really good article
What she look like?

[Mr. Jinx]

Yes, Slick, she is hot :rolleyes:
http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/d/w/wheels/judges/samanthaS.jpg

SAMANTHA STEVENS
Motoring journalist for the Sydney Sunday Telegraph CARSguide, Samantha (27) has always had a passion for cars. Design background in fine arts, film and photography, before cars took over.

[SlickHolden]

Yes, Slick, she is hot :rolleyes:
http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/d/w/wheels/judges/samanthaS.jpg
She looks like a geek:p

[adrenaline]

Women that are right into cars scare me a little...

[SlickHolden]

LOL She can come help you with that problem under the car:D:D Just after the tranny theres the problem the tailshaft:p

[monaroCountry]

From Carsales.com.au

"the new VE Commodores have had their first month on sale, and judging by the figures, every one of the cars produced for sale in September fled the Holden dealer network. And so they should".

According to many reports, there is a waiting list for luxury versions of the commodore i.e. statesman, Caprice, V cars.

[Cyco]

Chicks that are into cars are wonderful, pity there arn't enough of them.

[Mr. Jinx]

She looks like a geek:p
Haha, maybe I like 'em that way :rolleyes:

[SlickHolden]

Haha, maybe I like 'em that way :rolleyes:
Geeks can blow your mind in more way then one:D:D