New Mid-engined RWD American Car Revealed [Archive]

Mr.Tiv

11-10-2006, 03:14 PM

i think it'll sell pretty well... unleash it to the hippies in san francisco, the lower-middle class of the midwest, and the trendy youths of the east coast, and you've got yourself a good market
Maybe it weren't so fugly. The only market that, I think, you have right is super-liberals in San Fran( and other areas). As long as gas is cheap the midwest will harbor large, powerful cars and the East coast is a vastly superficial place, overly concernded with "keeping up with the Jones'." As sad as it is, an ugly, 3banger probably won't fit in in America. That's my two sence anyway, not that anyonw really cares what I think.

Viper007

11-10-2006, 03:39 PM

How much foreign policy will it take to keep these cars out of the US? Oh I'm just kidding, no need to go crazy.

Slicks

11-10-2006, 03:41 PM

Ugh, Ive seen two smarts so far now on the road, both times gave me a good laugh.

Mr.Tiv

11-10-2006, 03:42 PM

Ugh, Ive seen two smarts so far now on the road, both times gave me a good laugh.
Where in the US? I know there are a few here, but have yet to see one.

HSVLVR

11-10-2006, 03:55 PM

Another Smart Car? Gimme a break

092326001

11-10-2006, 04:02 PM

smart cars would look better without two tone paint

there are quite a few here

they look better than the original ones

can't wait for a roadster model with new look and more power

Egg Nog

11-10-2006, 04:03 PM

Good. I hope they sell well. They've done pretty well in Canada over the past few years.

I can't believe how many people act like small cars infringe their rights or something.

Slicks

11-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Where in the US? I know there are a few here, but have yet to see one.
Near st.louis missouri. Ive also seen some in autotrader from the local MB dealership.

NSXType-R

11-10-2006, 04:15 PM

How much power are these things going to have?

I'd hate to see them on the highway. They're going to be moving roadblocks.

Slicks

11-10-2006, 04:18 PM

How much power are these things going to have?

I'd hate to see them on the highway. They're going to be moving roadblocks.
If I remember right they are over $40K :eek:

baddabang

11-10-2006, 04:22 PM

I would be scared to drive that among our big SUV's and trucks.

Esperante

11-10-2006, 04:24 PM

Maybe it weren't so fugly. The only market that, I think, you have right is super-liberals in San Fran( and other areas). As long as gas is cheap the midwest will harbor large, powerful cars and the East coast is a vastly superficial place, overly concernded with "keeping up with the Jones'." As sad as it is, an ugly, 3banger probably won't fit in in America. That's my two sence anyway, not that anyonw really cares what I think.
I disagree. New development is cramming Midwest cities and people are either going to realize they need a smaller car or to take transit or continue sprawling out, the latter of which won't happen once gas prices rise again. San Francisco and the eastern Seaboard is already pretty dense.

lightweight

11-10-2006, 04:31 PM

If I remember right they are over $40K :eek:

In Europe they sell for 10,000 - 15,000 Euros

Egg Nog

11-10-2006, 04:32 PM

If I remember right they are over $40K :eek:

You can get one brand new for way less than half of that here. Dealerships must be jacking up prices to cash in on the initial "must-have" buyers.

lightweight

11-10-2006, 04:35 PM

How much power are these things going to have?

Existing versions vary from 45-65 hp IIRC from a turbo 600cc. I guess that US cars wll have the same output more or less by increasing cc and getting rid of the turbo

I'd hate to see them on the highway. They're going to be moving roadblocks.

Believe me, their owners would hate to go to the highway with one of these....A strong wind can really upset this car.

This car is made for the city. Since it's a niche car for its segment, it is expected that potential buyers will already own other vehicles for the Highway trip.

NSXType-R

11-10-2006, 04:55 PM

Believe me, their owners would hate to go to the highway with one of these....A strong wind can really upset this car.

This car is made for the city. Since it's a niche car for its segment, it is expected that potential buyers will already own other vehicles for the Highway trip.

Right. But you can't stay in the city forever. Sure, if you're a loser and don't want to leave the cities, be my guest. :D But there's more to the world than the cities. A 40K car that is only useful in the cities. Right, like anyone's going to buy them. Plus, no matter how safe they are, I don't care. Semi-tractor trailers are still way bigger than them. Is the Elise bigger than this? If so, it shows how small it really is.

However, it still could sell with these shortcomings. It could be a specialty cult car like the new VW Beetle.

h00t_h00t

11-10-2006, 05:28 PM

They aren't actually planning to sell them for $40k, its just something slicks made up.

Mr.Tiv

11-10-2006, 05:34 PM

This is going to get ugly.

Vindesh17

11-10-2006, 05:36 PM

I've gotten accustomed to them here so I'm not worried.

PerfAdv

11-10-2006, 05:56 PM

$40k, I doubt it very very much. This car wouldn't sell more than $10-15k.

EDIT: then I read the linked article. Spot on. :)

Smart’s established non-North American markets get the full new fortwo coupe lineup in April 2007, followed by the cabriolet versions six months later, North America gets three versions starting in the first quarter of 2008. These are: the basic fortwo coupe “pure” edition with steel wheels starting at around $11,000; the top-of-the-line fortwo coupe “passion” edition starting at around $13,000; and the fortwo cabriolet passion edition starting at around $15,000.

Egg Nog

11-10-2006, 06:29 PM

What's all this bullshit about not being able to take them on the highway?

I know a guy who owns uses his Smart at a company car; he drives it everywhere on the highway and says it's great. He had a radar detector installed.

Anyone who says "the engine is no good for the USA" or "it's so ugly that I wouldn't buy one" wouldn't have bought one anyways. What they think has zero effect on sales.

Before we continue, let's get our facts straight:

1. They don't cost anywhere near $40,000. That is false.

2. They are perfectly useful both inside and outside of the city.

Mr.Tiv

11-10-2006, 06:49 PM

Instead of telling us what they don't cost, why don't you give us some actual information. As far as your comment on sales, yes, people not wanting them takes it's toll on sales. I like small cars, but still like them to look good and be reasonably potent. Of course it's not 40,000 dollars and some people will buy it, however their really isn't that large of a market for things like this-if they upped the power it would have a better shot, something in the neighborhood of 80-100hpis in order.

As for one of your previous comments, no one is acting like small cars infringe on us. I like small cars, but also want them to be reasonably potent.

Coventrysucks

11-10-2006, 07:12 PM

Oh, hypocrisy is such a gift to mankind.

So many times the American crowd have been crowing about how "ignorant" and biased the Europeans are, and what do we see...

With no experience of the car at all, aside from a picture, you all think you can pass final judgement.

The Smart is a hoot, apparently with some minor adjustment you can fling them about with gay abandon, (without a huge power hike :rolleyes: ) enjoying the "half-a-Porsche" soundtrack.

Any comments about them being unusable on the "highway" are clearly childish propaganda, as are any comments about them being "unsafe" with trucks, SUVs, and "semis" or whatever you call them over there.

There are people all across Europe who have used these cars for years, and oh look, they all survived! (Well, probably).

mehrshadvr4

11-10-2006, 07:18 PM

Egg Nog

11-10-2006, 07:35 PM

Instead of telling us what they don't cost, why don't you give us some actual information.

Because I don't need to. The actual price had already been posted when I made my post.

As far as your comment on sales, yes, people not wanting them takes it's toll on sales. I like small cars, but still like them to look good and be reasonably potent.

Way to take my comment way out of context. What do you mean "people not wanting them takes its toll on sales". The point was, people who are looking to buy a large car or a fast cars won't buy smarts. The company already knows that. They're not aiming to sell cars to everyone. Most Smarts are sold as secondary cars anyways.

The guy I know who owns one uses it as a daily driver instead of his full-size chevy pickup. He didn't replace the pickup with it, and he didn't even really care what it looked like. He cared that it got excellent fuel economy, and he liked that it was easy to park.

Of course it's not 40,000 dollars and some people will buy it, however their really isn't that large of a market for things like this-if they upped the power it would have a better shot, something in the neighborhood of 80-100hpis in order.

This is a common claim made by car enthusiasts, but it doesn't really hold much water. You're not going to find a single person who bought a smart because they liked how fast it was. The reason people buy them is because they're simple and get really good milage. Adding power would tend to reduce this milage. Since power isn't the selling feature, adding more isn't likely to make a big difference in sales. It's like trying to sell a GT3 RS by adding a bunch of cupholders. I don't really know how you can say that there's no market for this car at this point; it's the only car in its class, and it's barely been on sale for a week.

As for one of your previous comments, no one is acting like small cars infringe on us. I like small cars, but also want them to be reasonably potent.

Well then, you're obviously not going to buy one. I don't see how that's somehow the company's mistake. They know the market that they're aiming for. You're not in it.

Did you honestly not think I was being sarcastic when I said people think small cars infringe on their rights?

P4g4nite

11-10-2006, 07:42 PM

You Yanks gave the world the Hummer, consider this a partial payback.

Slicks

11-10-2006, 07:53 PM

They aren't actually planning to sell them for $40k, its just something slicks made up.
Yeah, I just made it up :rolleyes:
It was an an autoextra or autotrader, I remember specifically because I thought that price was so outrageous.
And according to this site:" http://www.asmartcar.com/specifics.html " the base price for the fortwo is $30,000, so with options and dealer markups you think it maybe, just maybe get to $40,000, like what I saw? Yeah, I think so...

Slicks

11-10-2006, 07:57 PM

You Yanks gave the world the Hummer, consider this a partial payback.
The H1 was good for what it was made for.

mehrshadvr4

11-10-2006, 08:20 PM

___

11-10-2006, 09:12 PM

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4104261162559881379&q=smart+car+crash

Safer than some of u think but keep in mind that u would still have die becaues of the G forces not form the car crushing u...
its topics like this that we get to see how insecure and ignorant some ppl can be.(manliy sepo's;) )

mehrshadvr4

11-10-2006, 10:14 PM

blackcat77

11-11-2006, 01:29 AM

I'd love to have one *as a second car.* It wouldn't be practical for long trips, but for just tooling around town at 30 mph, what's the point of driving some huge gas-guzzler.

drakkie

11-11-2006, 01:50 AM

Just some proof that the Mercedes engineers did an incredible job :) The links are both to the website of the euro-ncap testing centre. it is a centre created and supported by all major motoring organizations in Europe. Testing methods for each car are exactly the same. The Jeep just benefits it is slightly older and new stuff have been invnted.

MCC Smart:
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=1&id2=29

Jeep Grand cherokee:
http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/Off-Roaders/car_239_2005/Jeep%20Grand%20Cherokee%20Datasheet%202.pdf

As you can see the both cars are only 4 points from eachother. This means the Jeep just fits into the 4 star rating(25+ points) and the Smart is a reasonably well car in the 3star rating... But remember the cars are 6 (!!) years apart. Many new things were discovered and applied.

Now you people go and see for yourself.

And if anyone could care,the high price is because of the safety cell. It is made from special kinds of steel,they are stronger but more expensive. The Smart has in the meanwhile gotten a familiar sight around here,although there was a lot of criticism in the beginning.
That has gone away and now the Smart is seen as a funky city car,which it is !!! IIRC i even read something about a second generation not too long ago :) This clearly proves the idea was viable and DaimlerChrysler wouldnt have started that,if it was no good.

Just my 50 eurocents :)

lightweight

11-11-2006, 03:14 AM

They are perfectly useful both inside and outside of the city.

It is perfectly usable inside the city.

Outside the city it is just usable. The top speed of the 45 hp version is less than 150 km/h, so the car will be abused if used on the highway. The noise levels are really high and the car is not really stable due to the high center of gravity and short wheelbase. That isn't to say that it is unsafe, though!

clutch-monkey

11-11-2006, 03:22 AM

Since power isn't the selling feature, adding more isn't likely to make a big difference in sales. It's like trying to sell a GT3 RS by adding a bunch of cupholders.
i agree with you on that point - power is not that useful in this car, it would only unsettle it and highlight any dynamic problems imo (besides in traffic/city driving you don't really need any power)

edit: on the cupholders thing, it took me 18 minutes to find the cupholders in a standard GT3, i shit you not.

Egg Nog

11-11-2006, 04:16 AM

It is perfectly usable inside the city.

Outside the city it is just usable. The top speed of the 45 hp version is less than 150 km/h, so the car will be abused if used on the highway. The noise levels are really high and the car is not really stable due to the high center of gravity and short wheelbase. That isn't to say that it is unsafe, though!

It's fine on the highway. Your standards are way too high. Do you seriously think anyone in the market for a Smart would opt not to buy it because it could only go 135km/h? (Which is electronically limited)

135km/h is plenty fast enough for the highway. Again, if someone wanted a fast car, they wouldn't want a Smart to begin with.

lightweight

11-11-2006, 06:36 AM

135km/h is plenty fast enough for the highway. Again, if someone wanted a fast car, they wouldn't want a Smart to begin with.

I think that the problem is the way that the performance (or lack of it) is delivered: The car takes ages to accelerate to a decent speed. It becomes irritating, because you have to push the engine to its max, which increases NVH, consumption etc.

So, the car obviously can cruise down the highway, but with limited comfort for the occupants. Because few people will own only a smart, I think that the solution is to get your other car for the highway trip:D

whiteballz

11-11-2006, 06:51 AM

I think that the solution is to get your other car for the highway trip:D

even if you had to push the engine to its limits it would still be more economical to the point than almost anything general american users would choose to drive.consumer whore

IBrake4Rainbows

11-11-2006, 06:51 AM

Yeah, I just made it up :rolleyes:
It was an an autoextra or autotrader, I remember specifically because I thought that price was so outrageous.
And according to this site:" http://www.asmartcar.com/specifics.html " the base price for the fortwo is $30,000, so with options and dealer markups you think it maybe, just maybe get to $40,000, like what I saw? Yeah, I think so...

you mean the wholesaler of the older model - something which wasn't available through a dealer network - and thus was an import - charges more to ship the car?

Never.......let's see how much Mercedes Charge for the beasty.

I foresee it going the way of the segway, though, in the us.

Coventrysucks

11-11-2006, 08:03 AM

Outside the city it is just usable.

Maybe you'd have a point if all that existed outside of cities were "highways".

There are however, towns and villages, and a huge expanse of minor road networks, on which the speed limit is reduced considerably, either by law or by the layout of the road itself.

Conditions which the Smart will cope with.

In fact the Smart makes just as much sense in more rural settings as it does in an urban centre.

nota

11-11-2006, 11:41 AM

I think that the problem is the way that the performance (or lack of it) is delivered: The car takes ages to accelerate to a decent speed. It becomes irritating, because you have to push the engine to its max, which increases NVH, consumption etc.

So, the car obviously can cruise down the highway, but with limited comfort for the occupants. Because few people will own only a smart, I think that the solution is to get your other car for the highway trip:D
Those complaints could equally apply to heaps of other brand-new vehicles that congest the roadways; jouncy jap pickups, small slushboxes driven by senile senior sitizens, lugubrious Landcruisers with large yet lethargic 4.2 litre diesels .. the list goes on

Every car is a functional compromise, after all. I like those little Smart cars. For its intended application as a city/urban personal runabout they seems to offer considerable benefits (terrific convenience, unique style, decent safety, impressive economy, lotza fun) while imposing a lot less compromises than many far more average cars imho

Besides, as they say .. it's a lot more fun to drive a slow car quickly, than a fast car slowly ;)

Egg Nog

11-11-2006, 04:43 PM

I think that the problem is the way that the performance (or lack of it) is delivered: The car takes ages to accelerate to a decent speed. It becomes irritating, because you have to push the engine to its max, which increases NVH, consumption etc.

So, the car obviously can cruise down the highway, but with limited comfort for the occupants. Because few people will own only a smart, I think that the solution is to get your other car for the highway trip:D

You really don't get it. First of all, the Smart is not at its max on the highway. It's not even at its max going top speed, because it's been electronically limited to (I believe) 135km/h. [Edit: Looks like the new Smart is limited to 145km/h] They did that so it won't be working too hard at full speed, and so that it would still get good fuel economy. It doesn't really take that long to accelerate to highway speeds. The guy I know who owns one said its plenty fast enough to keep up on the highway, merging, passing etc. (Remember he's got a radar detector in his Smart. That says a lot.)

Again, what's with your standards? You're saying it'll have "limited comfort" on the highway - well look, if they wanted luxury, they wouldn't have bought a Smart. People buy them because they get great milage in the city and on the highway. They do that pretty damn well.

kingofthering

11-11-2006, 05:09 PM

unleash it to the hippies in san francisco
we're not hippes, we're ultra-liberal, socialist, semi-communist,Green Party members. I'm the exact opposite of what the city stands for, I'm fat and I like cars that don't run on battery, and I support oil companies.

Mr.Tiv

11-11-2006, 05:18 PM

It's just too sensible for me. That's what all the my problems with it boil down to. I'd like to drive one though, so when the local MB dealer gets them I think I'll have myself a test drive. It's almost as bad as my Buick; excepting, the fact that the Smart will go around a corner without making an ass of it and sqealing the tires. I still doubt that the market for these is all that large-something I have to look into more.

PerfAdv

11-11-2006, 10:13 PM

I've only seen the production 2-seater, which seems impractical to me. The Honda Insight didn't sell very well, partially because it was impractical IMO. The Prius, on the other hand sells very well.

Other that selling some to the, wannabe-first-on-the-block, what's the Smart got on the Yaris. Which, against the gas model is just as economical and more "practical". As a fashion accessory its smart but where's the back seat?

Blitz_

11-11-2006, 10:21 PM

What kind of safety features do one of them sweet pieces of metal have? Me thinks your chances of surving a hit would be a nil? Personally, I hate smart cars, unavoidably ugly and terrible interiors to boot.

Coventrysucks

11-11-2006, 11:20 PM

I've only seen the production 2-seater, which seems impractical to me. The Honda Insight didn't sell very well, partially because it was impractical IMO. The Prius, on the other hand sells very well.

The Honda Insight was a load of rubbish, that is the reason it didn't sell, not because it was "impractical".

I don't even understand the argument, there are many, many two seater sports cars which people buy, despite the "impracticality".

The Prius only sells "well" because famous people were seen getting out of them. Now that the hubub has died down and the celebs have retreated back to their Expiry Mountain Edition there don't seem to be many newly registered ones about.

What kind of safety features do one of them sweet pieces of metal have? Me thinks your chances of surving a hit would be a nil? Personally, I hate smart cars, unavoidably ugly and terrible interiors to boot.

Yes, they're so unsafe that the thousands of people across Europe who bought one are all dead now.

Oh, hang on, aren't all dead now.

The NCAP results are already posted in this thread ffs!

I have seen a magnitude more Smart cars on the road than Toyota Prii. In fact, I don't think I've seen a Prius for well over a year now, excluding the Toyota stand at the London motorshow.

N.B. Smart have been selling the "ForTwo", as it is now known, for 6 years in Europe, with barely any changes.

The replacement is due to go on sale in only a few months time.

Do you really think they would have been able to keep producing the cars for that long, and spent many, many millions developing a replacement if it were a sales failure, or too dangerous?

As the pathetic driver awareness campaigns say:

Think! Before you post.

2ndclasscitizen

11-11-2006, 11:27 PM

Esperante

11-11-2006, 11:37 PM

I thought the Smart car got some of the highest attainable marks in safety.

PerfAdv

11-11-2006, 11:43 PM

The Honda Insight was a load of rubbish, that is the reason it didn't sell, not because it was "impractical".

I don't even understand the argument, there are many, many two seater sports cars which people buy, despite the "impracticality".

The Prius only sells "well" because famous people were seen getting out of them. Now that the hubub has died down and the celebs have retreated back to their Expiry Mountain Edition there don't seem to be many newly registered ones about.

I don't know how good of bad the Insight was but I felt it didn't sell because of its limited appeal to people looking for a practical car. Sports car buyers don't care about impracticality but commuters looking for an economical car want practicality.

Prius still sell very well here in Southern California. One of the main reasons it that they are PZEVs they can be run in carpool lanes with just the driver instead of required passenger(s), a huge plus during rush hour. Since the Prius can carry five, eventhough many commute alone the car's added practicality makes the Prius a hot seller compared to Honda's first hybrid.

nota

11-11-2006, 11:55 PM

I had an old video of a 5th Gear (I think) crash test of a Smart into a barrier, and I think it did well IIRC. All the plastic took a lot of the impact and shattered off, but importantly the crash structure was very strong and the car held up well. I'll see if I can find it.

I thought the Smart car got some of the highest attainable marks in safety.
If not this video then others on this page :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svKQkwBNQaU

PerfAdv

11-12-2006, 12:02 AM

If not this video then others on this page :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svKQkwBNQaU
The Smart vs. the S-class video that's listed next is even more telling. Wow that's a tough nut to crack! :)

lightweight

11-12-2006, 12:08 AM

You really don't get it. First of all, the Smart is not at its max on the highway. It's not even at its max going top speed, because it's been electronically limited to (I believe) 135km/h. [Edit: Looks like the new Smart is limited to 145km/h] They did that so it won't be working too hard at full speed, and so that it would still get good fuel economy. It doesn't really take that long to accelerate to highway speeds. The guy I know who owns one said its plenty fast enough to keep up on the highway, merging, passing etc. (Remember he's got a radar detector in his Smart. That says a lot.)

Again, what's with your standards? You're saying it'll have "limited comfort" on the highway - well look, if they wanted luxury, they wouldn't have bought a Smart. People buy them because they get great milage in the city and on the highway. They do that pretty damn well.

Look, it's really simple: It's not as comfortable as other cars (hatches) on the same price tag. I've driven a Smart and I've driven other hatches. Period.

clutch-monkey

11-12-2006, 12:11 AM

Look, it's really simple: It's not as comfortable as other cars (hatches) on the same price tag.
maybe if you're a fatass :p

Egg Nog

11-12-2006, 12:36 AM

Look, it's really simple: It's not as comfortable as other cars (hatches) on the same price tag. I've driven a Smart and I've driven other hatches. Period.

Look it's really simple: People who buy Smarts aren't looking for the most comfortable car in that price range. What do you say about all the rest of your points I addressed? There's nothing to be gained from being stubborn man.

I agree that there are more comfortable cars in the price range. That point doesn't add to your argument.

People buy Smarts for three basic reasons:

1. Awesome fuel economy.
2. "Cuteness" (At least where I live, this is a huge selling feature. I've seen loads of young women driving Smart cabrios)
3. Easy to drive and park.

The Smart, at least in North America, is better than any competitors at those three things.

TVR IS KING

11-12-2006, 01:05 AM

Cuteness can also be related to an image thing. Its a very independant car, for someone who wants to make a statement, albeit a cute one.

IBrake4Rainbows

11-12-2006, 02:54 AM

Around canberra most smart cars are used for advertising purposes.

2ndclasscitizen

11-12-2006, 03:33 AM

Definately. In Canberra a Smart would make very little sense. Most of our roads are big and wide so there's (comparatively) little traffic and high speed limits, so it's not that bad to have a bigger car. I drive to work and uni at at least 80kmh for at the very least 75% of the way. But if I lived say in inner city Sydney, I'd be looking seriously at buying something like a Smart. A Smart hybrid would be good, an electric motor with CVT would be brilliant in very heavy city traffic. Though I'd probably buy a Z650.

lightweight

11-12-2006, 07:24 AM

Look it's really simple: People who buy Smarts aren't looking for the most comfortable car in that price range.

I am saying that its below the segment standard as far as the highway use is concerned, due to NVH issues. Moreover the suspension is very stiff and combined with the short wheelbase of the car makes every bump a rather uncomfortable experience.

Given the fact that American family cars are mostly biased towards luxury and refinement (soft suspension etc) the smart has a tough job to do. That's why the wheelbase of the car is stretched.

Doubting that is being stubborn:o

Mr.Tiv

11-12-2006, 07:40 AM

Egg Nog

11-12-2006, 01:54 PM

I am saying that its below the segment standard as far as the highway use is concerned, due to NVH issues. Moreover the suspension is very stiff and combined with the short wheelbase of the car makes every bump a rather uncomfortable experience.

Given the fact that American family cars are mostly biased towards luxury and refinement (soft suspension etc) the smart has a tough job to do. That's why the wheelbase of the car is stretched.

Doubting that is being stubborn:o

It's good that you've now included all the background reasoning behind why it's uncomfortable. Still, I haven't been disagreeing with you on that point, so I don't know if it furthers your argument.

I'm happy as long as you understand that it can be a very usable and practical car. If you ask someone who's owned one, they'll probably tell you that they like the milage it gets, they like that it can keep up on the highway, and they probably won't compain that it's uncomfortable. The car has merit.

I don't know if the Smart will sell well either. Time will tell us the answer to that. In fact, if you ask me, it'll be pretty interesting to find out.

lightweight

11-13-2006, 03:43 AM

It's good that you've now included all the background reasoning behind why it's uncomfortable. Still, I haven't been disagreeing with you on that point, so I don't know if it furthers your argument.

I am disagreeing on the part concerning the highway usage. All these arguments are meant to prove that using it on the highway is substandard compared to other vehicles.

This was the case all along and not comfort in general