SX6-XR6-SV6 Head 2 Head. Or is it?

[SlickHolden]

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=21521&vf=7

http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/11/10/10HitM_m.jpg




The Commodore versus Falcon battle has raged for the better part of 30 years but both models are under more pressure today than they've ever been.

Unstable petrol prices get most of the blame for the recent decline in large-car sales but the reality is they have been falling for more than a decade.

Sales of the Falcon and Commodore are, respectively, at a 14-year and 12-year low.

The new Commodore was apparently going to change the fortunes of locally made sedans but early sales figures suggest this is not going to be as easy as first thought.

For some time now Holden and Ford have been battling the increasing popularity of novated leases (which allow company car drivers to look beyond Commodore and Falcon brochures) and the improved affordability of imported cars thanks to a strong Australian dollar and a reduction in import tariffs.

Holden buyers haven't been defecting to Ford or vice versa - they've been fleeing the large-car market altogether. Today's executives are driving Honda Accord Euros, Subaru Libertys, BMWs, Audis and Mercedes-Benzes. Fewer drivers aspire to own a Falcon or Commodore.

With this in mind, the last thing Holden and Ford need now is the world's richest car maker - and Australia's most popular brand for the past four years - to take an interest in the large-car market.

Toyota has been here before, of course. Six years ago we were told the Toyota Avalon was going to shake up the market dominated by the Falcon and Commodore. It flopped. But Toyota learns from its mistakes and those of its rivals.

When the 1998 AU Falcon was released, Toyota watched Ford's fleet pricing strategy with interest. The idea sounded plausible: Ford would reduce the discount to fleets and sharpen retail prices. It didn't work for several reasons: private buyers didn't crave a Falcon and 80 per cent of large cars are bought by fleets. Upset at not getting their substantial discount (up to 30 per cent for big fleet operators), they went to Holden.

Now Holden is trying the formula Ford tried eight years ago. When the new Commodore was released, Holden proudly announced it would not discount as heavily to fleets and it slashed the retail price of most of the new Commodore range. So far the move has backfired, with furious fleets now looking at alternatives. Enter Toyota.

Its new large-car contender is the Aurion. Ominously, the name starts with A and ends with an N - but that's about the only thing it has in common with the ill-fated Avalon.

Not only has Toyota got the price and equipment right, it has a built a car more powerful and yet more fuel-efficient than the Commodore and Falcon. It is also better equipped, has significantly more safety features and class-leading, ultra-low emissions.

In this era of occupational health and safety requirements and a new focus on climate change, the Aurion seems to have the game sewn up. On paper at least.

The one magic ingredient the Aurion lacks (by virtue of the name being created overnight) is image.

But Toyota has attempted to address that by matching the Commodore and Falcon ranges model for model, from basic fleet sedans to the luxury flagships and, of course, the popular sports sedans.

To find out whether Toyota has created a genuine large-car contender, we tested the Aurion SX6 against the hero models of the six-cylinder brigade, the Falcon XR6 and Commodore SV6. Here's how they compare.

You have too wonder is this a test on paper only?
Some very strange never before seen testing skills from Drive.

A couple sound funny.
They don't see corners as import:p
The tested the cars performance with 4 in cars going up slightly raised hills?
Aurion wins but it seems it was on paper in the dealers not so much on the road.
Anyway i just feel the whole test was done shit and i hope the 3 can go head to head in a real comparison soon.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Wheels > Any Newspaper. Opinion wise, anyway.

I'm an Aurion hater, what can I say - i think it's ugly, badly advertised and little more than a larger camry - which has been shat upon so that this car can sell well.

If it makes it's 25,000/year sales targets i'm going to be an unhappy panda.

[SlickHolden]

I like this quote on drives blog.


This is one of the stupidest pieces of motoring journalism I have ever come across. The whole point of a road test is to find out how a car drives yet you gave the Aurion the gong because its better "On price, equipment, safety features, fuel economy and emissions". Im sorry but I can get all of those statistics off manufacturer's website. What's the point of taking these cars out for a drive if the winner is going to be decided based on the specs sheet?

Also an overly intrusive ESP system is not a 'safety feature' and I don't know how you decided that the Aurion had the lowest emissions...perhaps you had some scientists test it out? No I didn't think so. All these cars obviously comply with the (increasing strict) emission laws, just because Toyota makes the Prius doesn't mean all their cars are eco-friendly.

At least you said that the Toyota was not the best driver's car, if you had been honest you would have admitted that it is the worst, by a long shot. On a track the Toyota will get massacred. Of course your going to say that no owner is ever going to take it to a track. No probably not, that would be your job, to find out how a car drives and on that criteria the Toyota comes a distant third. I can read the equipment list for myself thanks.

On a final note, your 0-100 test, that was pure gold. Putting four people in the cars and driving them up a hill because that's more 'real-world'...haha. Yeah because gunning it from 0-100 is what people in the real-world do all the time.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Utterly Pwned.

This is what happens when journalists get sloppy and start believing press releases.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Yet more brilliant motoring journalism from Drive

[adrenaline]

I am sick to death of Drive. Their 'reviews' are absolute rubbish. It really does upset me that this kind of rubbish journalism is spread to thousands of un-informed new car buyers.

In other news, I've heard the VE is in for yet another recall, for a seatbelt issue.

[SlickHolden]

Yep they spring that one on us:p

Funny thing i just seen a Alliance Ad, they show a VE then a seatbelt:p Did they know something.
They say there is a spring in the belt in the rear only maybe? But not sure if it's all models as someone with a Statesman said it didnt involve him.
Before anyone thinks it's Korean suppliers it's South African supplier issue. I think this supplier found a problem in some ruteen testing.

[fpv_gtho]

I like this quote on drives blog.

I wonder if Drive will keep that message there :rolleyes:

[SlickHolden]

I wonder if Drive will keep that message there :rolleyes:
Not for long it contradicts there everyday driving test:p

If anyone thought them taking the falcons and commodore sporty models into 4wd territory was weird look at this. Lets do 0-100 times with 4 in the car going up the tallest hill in Australia that's what everyone does:D.

[adrenaline]

Can someone please tell me the story on this Aurion - environment thing??


In this era of occupational health and safety requirements and a new focus on climate change, the Aurion seems to have the game sewn up. On paper at least.


the most powerful and fuel-efficient V6 in its class and, with the lowest emissions, the kindest to the environment.


but there is plenty to like about the V6 Toyota. Has the Japanese brand stumbled on the right formula for a new, environmentally conscious Australia?

[adrenaline]

Not for long it contradicts there everyday driving test:p

If anyone thought them taking the falcons and commodore sporty models into 4wd territory was weird look at this. Lets do 0-100 times with 4 in the car going up the tallest hill in Australia that's what everyone does:D.

Uphill 0 - 100 is pathetic.

The part that most annoys me though, is the fact that they dismiss the fact that the Aurion drives the worst. They are testing the SPORTS VARIANTS, but in all their wisdom, decide to dismiss the handling of the cars, and focus on a specifications sheet.

Logically, they should have said the Aurion is better value for money, based on the standard equipment. But they went right ahead and said that "The Aurion is better than the Falcon and Commodore". After all, they are testing the sports models so you would think the winner would be based on it's driving/ sports qualities. Compared to the others, the Aurion drives like shit, it looks like shit. It's a V6 Camry.

After Holden spent so much on the VE for Australia, calling a V6 Camry better than it on the basis of specifications is an insult.

[Rockefella]

Bwahahahahahaha.

I love it. The VE Commodore was the biggest thing to come out of Australia this year and it lost the comparo. :D

[adrenaline]

Well it depends what you define 'comparo' as. Drive give it a whole new meaning.

[Rockefella]

Well it depends what you define 'comparo' as. Drive give it a whole new meaning.
Idk, I didn't even read the article. I just think it's hilarious that the Commodore lost. Now everyone in Australia is going to cry "WTF H4X!"

:)

[clutch-monkey]

Idk, I didn't even read the article. I just think it's hilarious that the Commodore lost. Now everyone in Australia is going to cry "WTF H4X!"

:)
well..not really...this is kind of like your local community newspaper 'reviewing' new cars by basically looking at equipment sheets, then proclaiming the camry is better than the mustang..

[fpv_gtho]

Can someone please tell me the story on this Aurion - environment thing??

Haha, where did they get the impression that buyers are going away from fuel guzzlers because of the environmental impact? Its because of the effect its happening on peoples wallets to run them, thats why!!!!

[Blitz_]

Drive is pathetic. Do you think any of the journo's take any notice of the blogs and continual pawnage? One can only imagine the curiosity and tempation of a Drive journo, or any for that matter, to see public reactions to thier written pieces.


..if only the incompetent journo's at Drive did.

On topic now though, was expecting the SV6 to win based upon the assumpition it was a comparision of mid range sports variants, not suprised the Aurion won given it was from Drive ;)

[SlickHolden]

Uphill 0 - 100 is pathetic.

The part that most annoys me though, is the fact that they dismiss the fact that the Aurion drives the worst. They are testing the SPORTS VARIANTS, but in all their wisdom, decide to dismiss the handling of the cars, and focus on a specifications sheet.

Logically, they should have said the Aurion is better value for money, based on the standard equipment. But they went right ahead and said that "The Aurion is better than the Falcon and Commodore". After all, they are testing the sports models so you would think the winner would be based on it's driving/ sports qualities. Compared to the others, the Aurion drives like shit, it looks like shit. It's a V6 Camry.

After Holden spent so much on the VE for Australia, calling a V6 Camry better than it on the basis of specifications is an insult.
Your spot on there, If they could have said best value for money which is always going too be a hard thing for ford and holden too match with Toyota since they only sell cut price cars in OZ.
It seems like a decant car and too be honest i didnt mind the look of the camry:D "Runs and hides in dark corner of the room:p"
But what you said about dismissing it's driving ability is right on the mark, If they didnt care about how the car goes as a sporty version then they should have been driving the falcon-commodore-aurion base models. People that buy them don't normally get too excited like the ones that buy these sporty models:D.

Bwahahahahahaha.

I love it. The VE Commodore was the biggest thing to come out of Australia this year and it lost the comparo. :D
On paper in a dealers not on road:D

Idk, I didn't even read the article. I just think it's hilarious that the Commodore lost. Now everyone in Australia is going to cry "WTF H4X!"

:)
This was like the test of the Mustang GTO... GTO won 80-90% of the test done but lost overall in the got too have factor which was crap:p.
The biggest flaw in this comparison is they test the sporty models and say there test wasn't based on corners performance. So we say then why test the performance cars:p

[thatdbeme]

This thread rocks
so much crying

[092326001]

Hahaha, I pity you aussies and your pathetic Drive magazine

[clutch-monkey]

Hahaha, I pity you aussies and your pathetic Drive magazine
i think you'll find it's not a magazine
it's one of those newspaper/online blog thingy's.... kinda like autoblog

[Blue Supra]

I didnt know the aurion was on the road until i saw one at the lights the other day... i dont care what everyone else seems to think but i reckon theyre hot and looks SHITLOADS better then the VE.

Yes thats right, im not conforming.

I wouldnt buy one, im a RWD-stick-it-sideways-light-em-up man through and through. I still think that in the looks, economy, specs, interior and everything that isnt drive layout related, Aurion wins.

[Blitz_]

Hahaha, I pity you aussies and your pathetic Drive magazine

e-zine me thinks its called.


Whats your call on COTY? Will Wheels stay to Australian heritage and hand it to the VE or look deeper and consider the Aurion a real contender?

[fpv_gtho]

I'll be surprised if VE gets it clear cut, as despite what many people would want to believe its not really groundbreaking. It'll still put up a fight however. Aurion will probably be at the pointy end, and any bet John Laws has a whinge if VE beats it.

Im not too sure what imports are new, but ive heard the Passat's a pretty good piece of work.

[Blue Supra]

The new Passat is quite a nice looking car for the price, the ad is right on the money in saying "its not as expensive as it looks"

[fpv_gtho]

Anybody expecting the Dodge Caliber to make it past the first round?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I'm not expecting the Dodge caliber to make the required sales figures :p

Probably Statesman/Caprice FTW - they are considered seperate models and they've said nothing bad about them at all.

Aurion might make an appearance at the second round but i'll be interested to see how it fares.

I will almost guarantee that there will not be a VE CoTY victory. Wheels was amazed at how little Holden moved the game on in comparison to the BF falcon- and as such it's going to suffer in some criteria.

[fpv_gtho]

In that sense the LWB's are probably going to fare alot better than the SWB's as theyve considerably changed the outlook on the "stretched Commodore".

[IBrake4Rainbows]

And they are a damned sight cheaper than their perceived competitors. and there not terrible cars.

Expect them to fair decently.

[SlickHolden]

Just rememberd something....
From the drive rightup. They said the quality of the Aurion only matched the Commodore-Falcon. How is that for a turn up. Does that mean Toyota has lost the game? Or falcon-commodore have moved there game:p, Rattle in the dash ect it's a turn up for there all might quality built cars that everyone mentions.

And who left the ****en door open for the feral dog too wonder in??

[Blue Supra]

time will tell, the VE has already had two recalls, lets see how toyota fares.

[SlickHolden]

They wont have any because they have been in the states for months:D

I'll have a VE 1st of next month Calais:)

[2ndclasscitizen]

The new Passat is quite a nice looking car for the price, the ad is right on the money in saying "its not as expensive as it looks"
It's the Jetta that has the "its not as expensive as it looks" and regardless of how expensive it looks, it's still bloody expensive

[adrenaline]

All of these VE recalls are surprising me. Six years and a billion dollars, and they are finding big problems with it :(

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The seatbelt one was the most surprising recall - the seatbelt supplier will be in for a huge shock when holden makes them foot the bill for the problem.

it's better, though, that they find these problems now, rather than later. and at least there not covering them up.

[SlickHolden]

True, I hope my VE has been back for the recalls when i take it away.

[fpv_gtho]

All of these VE recalls are surprising me. Six years and a billion dollars, and they are finding big problems with it :(

Youre always going to find something to fix though. Somebody should dig up how many recalls the latest E-Class had, if any. That was 3.5 billion in development.

[2ndclasscitizen]

They found the loose airbag wire in the VYs ages after they came out

[SlickHolden]

They found 10 years later that the buick v6 in VN-VR drinking huge petrol was the oxygen sensor falling:p

[Spastik_Roach]

The Aurion looks a bit un-gainly in my eyes and a bit too big than it should be, like its been streched alot in the wrong places...

[Blue Supra]

youre just not used to seeing a toyota (car not a 4wd) that big...

[IBrake4Rainbows]

it's detailing is hideous - the waving flag motif makes it look melted.

[SlickHolden]

I pass one all the time, When shopping there is a blue camry in the shopping centre, As i have said before i think i like it. But it's still very old model with new in there, Look past the song and light shows and see the old camry appear.
And god the 4cylinder sounds yuk.

[adrenaline]

Has anyone noticed, on the sports Aurion, how skinny the wheels are??!

http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/11/10/Aurion043_L_m.jpg

[Blue Supra]

thats not its best colour :o

the gold colour is its best fo shizzle
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/10/17/17AurionMain.jpg

[syko]

thats not its best colour :o


Or angle
The front of it looks too wide, bad design

[adrenaline]

I might be going off topic a little bit, but whilst we are talking about design, I came across an XT photo that, IMO, looks alot better than the official photos Ford gave us.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/E79F12D48972F1BBCA257221007EE107/$file/2006.11.10_Ford_Falcon.jpg?OpenElement

[2ndclasscitizen]

Ewww, why'd they do that to it? The BF Falcon looked great before but that looks like the unholy love child of an XR and Territory

[SlickHolden]

Has anyone noticed, on the sports Aurion, how skinny the wheels are??!

http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/11/10/Aurion043_L_m.jpg
Might only be a 215? As i have said many times, they need bigger wheels:D

I might be going off topic a little bit, but whilst we are talking about design, I came across an XT photo that, IMO, looks alot better than the official photos Ford gave us.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/E79F12D48972F1BBCA257221007EE107/$file/2006.11.10_Ford_Falcon.jpg?OpenElement
The bonnet is a little AU like, Wonder why they did that?

[adrenaline]

The tapered bonnet is supposed to reflect the European styling :rolleyes: How many Euro cars have tapered bonnets?

[motorsportnerd]

After all, they are testing the sports models so you would think the winner would be based on it's driving/ sports qualities. Compared to the others, the Aurion drives like shit, it looks like shit. It's a V6 Camry.


Really mate? Have you actually driven one? I have - I'll report back next week when I've had the chance to "hopefully" drive a VE over the coming weekend. It is most definitely not "shit" - even compared to the others.

[SlickHolden]

The tapered bonnet is supposed to reflect the European styling :rolleyes: How many Euro cars have tapered bonnets?
What is tapered:D

[motorsportnerd]

Idk, I didn't even read the article. I just think it's hilarious that the Commodore lost. Now everyone in Australia is going to cry "WTF H4X!"

:)

Yep - so the Commodore loses one test - to a Toyota. Us Aussies are anything but open-minded at times. Cracks me up that most who are criticising the Toyota haven't driven it and won't drive it.
What's going to happen if the forthcoming Wheels' comparison gives the same conclusion?

[motorsportnerd]

I'm not expecting the Dodge caliber to make the required sales figures :p

Probably Statesman/Caprice FTW - they are considered seperate models and they've said nothing bad about them at all.

Aurion might make an appearance at the second round but i'll be interested to see how it fares.

I will almost guarantee that there will not be a VE CoTY victory. Wheels was amazed at how little Holden moved the game on in comparison to the BF falcon- and as such it's going to suffer in some criteria.

Yep - Statesman/Caprice will probably win COTY - though Wheels has said the six-clyinder Statesman makes a great case for buying a V8 Calais. Pity the Calais can't be considered a separate model.
As for Aurion - look I know most hate it for what it represents, but if you put it up against the Wheels' COTY criteria it does well. Just because its the most controversial car launched in Australia since - well I guess the Leyland P76 - doesn't mean it won't do well in COTY. But I suspect Wheels will shy away from what would be a seriously controversial result, lost magazine sales and lost advertising revenue and won't award it COTY. It should top 3 I reckon though, along with the VE.
Also, what about the Mercedes S-Class - that's got a decent shot.

[motorsportnerd]

OK - to address a few points.
First - the article mentions that the Aurion has narrow tyres, one of the reasons why they say it didn't feel as "planted" on the road as the VE.
Second - what do enthusiasts prefer? Handling? Performance? Efficiency? Technology? Comfort? Refinement? Smoothness? Equipment? Safety?
I'll bet most would say "Handling and Performance".
Well - that means the XR6 would win the comparison as its got a better engine/more performance than the SV6 and handles slightly better than the Aurion. But its off the pace in other areas.
So, why shouldn't the Aurion win? 90-95% of the dynamic capability of the Commodore with a 10-15% performance advantage.
Or, go for the best handler and forgo the extra performance and other advantages? The buyer will make the call. In the past, I've placed handling at the top of the list and won't in the future. Its surprising how rarely you actually exploit a car's handling abilities and its not worth compromising performance, comfort, effiency, etc to get it.
As the article says - SV6 with the Aurion's driveline would be the way to go.

Now, as I said I have driven an Aurion. Rented one from Hertz over the weekend just gone. And I was impressed. I won't yet give my full impressions, nor will I say its better than Commodore. I'll wait until after I've driven the VE - which should be this weekend. I've booked a Commodore through Avis, just hoping they give me a VE and not a VZ or a Mits 380.
Then I'll report back on both cars and give you my judgement. I'll also tell you where I think the 380 and Falcon (albiet the BA - I haven't driven a BF) fit into the pecking order.

[SlickHolden]

It's hard too go on performance when they drove them up hills:D.

Stick them on the flat and the SV6 has already recorded a time of 6.7 too 100. So it lacks no performance. Just being the heaviest car on test going up hills with 320kg of human meat in it trying too do 0-100 test seems weird. Also going auto as the Aurion is auto only when the strongest performer of the SV6 is the 6 speed manual.
It misses on a 5 star safety ratting because of some rear seat issue cant recall it's something that is compolsaryin the u.s market. So safety is good.
Just about all test's done they comment the car maybe is too soft on the set-up.
It's seating and steering position is perfect seems too be what everyone has said.
Steering is great so they say.
And the alloytech engine some bag it but all have said it's better refined, But still people dismiss it because it sounds very V8 like. Dismissing engine on sound is wrong because we would dismiss all diesel engines if that be the case.
The 195 used more fuel going hard but if treated well and like they say not fanging around corners because they believe hardly anyone does it then it's a very fuel efficant car. As was just proven driving miss daisy with the fleet of VE's.

Alot of there comments came straight off websites. Who wouldn't know that side Airbags are in a package deal when buying a new car, Who would look at the website and get a car and not be handed the option book too look at and sign. My friend just bought a Viva and filled out some options there after looking on the website went in and found somemore. You have too do the options list too buy a car unless there is none.

[adrenaline]

OK - to address a few points.
First - the article mentions that the Aurion has narrow tyres, one of the reasons why they say it didn't feel as "planted" on the road as the VE.
Second - what do enthusiasts prefer? Handling? Performance? Efficiency? Technology? Comfort? Refinement? Smoothness? Equipment? Safety?
I'll bet most would say "Handling and Performance".
Well - that means the XR6 would win the comparison as its got a better engine/more performance than the SV6 and handles slightly better than the Aurion. But its off the pace in other areas.
So, why shouldn't the Aurion win? 90-95% of the dynamic capability of the Commodore with a 10-15% performance advantage.
Or, go for the best handler and forgo the extra performance and other advantages? The buyer will make the call. In the past, I've placed handling at the top of the list and won't in the future. Its surprising how rarely you actually exploit a car's handling abilities and its not worth compromising performance, comfort, effiency, etc to get it.

I highly doubt that the Aurion has anything near 95% of the dynamic ability of the VE.

I see a problem with what you are saying. This is the sports segment, where the manufacturers market how well their cars handle and drive. You can't simply forget about handling when you are buying what is supposed to be a sporty model. The Falcon and especially the Commodore sports models live up to the sports name. The Aurion apparently doesn't (even that article from Drive had to admit it wasn't a driver's car).

If it's not a driver's car, then don't award it the best sports model. So simple, yet Drive doesn't understand.


As the article says - SV6 with the Aurion's driveline would be the way to go.


I would prefer a Falcon powertrain any day. Sure it's missing 10kW on the Aurion, but it more than makes up for that in torque. Kilowatts aren't everything.

[charged]

Personally I will wait for wheels or motor to come out, the comparo seems fairly amateurish when compared to the leading car magazines.

Originally Posted by ADRENALINE

After all, they are testing the sports models so you would think the winner would be based on it's driving/ sports qualities. Compared to the others, the Aurion drives like shit, it looks like shit. It's a V6 Camry.

WTF are you on about ?. pretty sure in the so called test the Aurion didnt go flying of the road with diabolical understeer at the first corner. A decent RWD chassis will always be better than a decent FWD chassis, the thing is only probably 5% of the population will be able to exploit the limits or notice the difference.

Originally posted by Slickholden

Your spot on there, If they could have said best value for money which is always going too be a hard thing for ford and holden too match with Toyota since they only sell cut price cars in OZ.

Holden have thay covered with the crap they import and sell now.. Please explain to what you mean by cut price cars ?. Should they be selling the Lexus at commodore and falcon prices ?. What other models should Toyota bring out to sell against the aussie products ?.


And god the 4cylinder sounds yuk.
Compared to what ?. The V6 in the commodores from the VN to the present sound like chaff cutters, there is nothing to like about their engine noise. Compared to any modern Japanese V6 the holden V6's dont come close to matching their refinement.

There seems to be a massive conspiracy theory that the Aurion is going to destroy the Australian automotive industry, personally it will be great if the Camry and Aurion succeed especially on the export markets as this will keep the people employed in AUSTRALIA who actually make the car.

[Cyco]

he Falcon and especially the Commodore sports models live up to the sports name.

Drive a real sports car (M3, M3 CSL, M5, RS4, RS6, Ferrari, Aston, Porsche, Lotus, Lambo.....) and a one of the above and come back and tell us that.:p

From a friends test drive (and he has driven many top cars) the VE SS is far better than anything that has come before it, but its still not a real sports car.

[Blitz_]

Ill take the Scooby's terrific 4-cylinder note over the VN V6 note any day, I still regard the engine as one of the finest sounding 4 cylinders when being belted around corners.

This is a good oppurtunity to ponder a bit about the Orion Falcon and the impact it will have on the Aurion and VE. I have every confidence the next falcon will have an edge with exterior styling *to many this is still personal taste* but i'm still wary that dynamically it could only be a tad better than the VE. The front view of the Aurion doesn't do it any justice, the clean lines of the VE and BF, which we have all grown to know have that much more prescence.

Was watching 5th gear (shush top gear wasn't on ;)) and they did a terrific piece about the M3, truly a great piece of machinery and obviously a nice track weapon. If i wanted a daily driver and track weapon, it would be up there on my top 5 list.

[perryz]

Drive a real sports car (M3, M3 CSL, M5, RS4, RS6, Ferrari, Aston, Porsche, Lotus, Lambo.....) and a one of the above and come back and tell us that.:p

From a friends test drive (and he has driven many top cars) the VE SS is far better than anything that has come before it, but its still not a real sports car.

Exactly mate, Commy, Falcon, Camry/Aurion, they are all LARGE 4 door Family cars. FWD or RWD, V6 or pushrod V8, they will never handle like a sports car. Thats why import boys call FPV/HSV "super taxis". Give Aurion a fair go, how good you/people want their family taxi to handle like.

In my opinion, Aurion is a far more advanced family car. It has everything a family car buyers ever wanted, from efficiency to power, safty to affordability, equipment to emission, EVERYTHING! I agree people will still buy commies and falcons, cos their dads bought them, their mates buy them, but Aurion is definitely more than a competent competitor.

Cheers

[charged]

Drive a real sports car (M3, M3 CSL, M5, RS4, RS6, Ferrari, Aston, Porsche, Lotus, Lambo.....) and a one of the above and come back and tell us that.:p

From a friends test drive (and he has driven many top cars) the VE SS is far better than anything that has come before it, but its still not a real sports car.

In the latest wheels test the Calais V( my favourite, must be getting old) actually stacks up very very well against the Merc and BMW, they actually rate it above the BMW 550i (overrated euro, only reason it sells is badge snobbery) and virtually level with the Merc E500 which costs 102 grand more than the Calais V. Add twin turbs-intercoler about 400 rwkw's, koni adjustable suspension, brembos and some semi comps on the Calais and Id be going Euro hunting:D

[SlickHolden]

Holden have thay covered with the crap they import and sell now.. Please explain to what you mean by cut price cars ?. Should they be selling the Lexus at commodore and falcon prices ?. What other models should Toyota bring out to sell against the aussie products ?.
It's no secret they don't make a good profit for the amount of cars they sell here, If holden and ford sold the same amount that toyota sell they would make 4 times the profit per year. So they cut profit too sell cheap.



Compared to what ?. The V6 in the commodores from the VN to the present sound like chaff cutters, there is nothing to like about their engine noise. Compared to any modern Japanese V6 the holden V6's don't come close to matching their refinement
So we pick at my cars engine do we??
They sound shit next too a diesel camry 4 cylinders, Ask my mum she brought it up first she looked at said wtf was that shit.


There seems to be a massive conspiracy theory that the Aurion is going to destroy the Australian automotive industry, personally it will be great if the Camry and Aurion succeed especially on the export markets as this will keep the people employed in AUSTRALIA who actually make the car.

Aurion will never out sell a falcon or commodore so i don't know why people are worried. The people at Mitsubishi should be pissed off right now there 380 is a good car but who cares the Aurion has moved the game:rolleyes:

[Cyco]

I have no doubt that the Euro distributors have a right to be worried about the performance of the Australian cars in comparison, but their sports models (not counting AMG) seem to still be that step ahead of what we have. Not that surprising as they have a greater history and cost a lot more.

[Blue Supra]

I dont mind the ol 3.8L V6 from holden, sounds deep, slightly aged but still has a decent note with a good system on it.

Still i love hearing jap motors revving their arses off, even the ol magna 3.5L sounds quite smooth at 6000rpm.

[adrenaline]

WTF are you on about ?. pretty sure in the so called test the Aurion didnt go flying of the road with diabolical understeer at the first corner. A decent RWD chassis will always be better than a decent FWD chassis, the thing is only probably 5% of the population will be able to exploit the limits or notice the difference.

Compared to the Commodore/ Falcon. Even the article highlighted this fact.

[adrenaline]

Drive a real sports car (M3, M3 CSL, M5, RS4, RS6, Ferrari, Aston, Porsche, Lotus, Lambo.....) and a one of the above and come back and tell us that.:p

From a friends test drive (and he has driven many top cars) the VE SS is far better than anything that has come before it, but its still not a real sports car.

The Commodore and Falcon do live up to the sports name, not in general compared to super Europeans, but when you factor in the price, they can hold their heads high.

[SlickHolden]

I dont mind the ol 3.8L V6 from holden, sounds deep, slightly aged but still has a decent note with a good system on it.

Still i love hearing jap motors revving their arses off, even the ol magna 3.5L sounds quite smooth at 6000rpm.
Shet yeah!, Minus what sounds like a rattling harmonic balancer ready too fly off, And most caseses that is about too happen:p They are good engine, Some are awful sounding some just are embarrising too listen too, My exhaust might be a good 90db but i can here some of the VN's rattling next too me, And i think thank **** mine isnt that bad for a old bugger:).
Down the road theres a Magna big wide one actually i dont think it's called a magna it looks done up more upmarkert high spec, Anyway it powers up and down the street in front of my place and sounds good, No sports system just sounds nice, But nothing sounds better then a turbo lexus V8:D.
I did my radiator and next door they were tuning a green Supra:eek: Fast and the furious is a pussy next too this thing, Pop the rev limiter about 100 times:).

[charged]

Slickholden originally posted

It's no secret they don't make a good profit for the amount of cars they sell here, If holden and ford sold the same amount that toyota sell they would make 4 times the profit per year. So they cut profit too sell cheap.

Toyota think globally not locally, if they sell 100,000 $30,000 Camry/Aurions and have a 3% margin and Holden sell 20,000 $30,000 Commodores @ a 5% margin, Toyota would still have the higher overall profit. Competitive pricing is how companies sell cars ?


So we pick at my cars engine do we??
They sound shit next too a diesel camry 4 cylinders, Ask my mum she brought it up first she looked at said wtf was that shit

Definetley not having a go at your engine, just the V6 GM powerplants in the Commodores, I have driven Commodores from the VP to VY V6 commodores and the motors are very coarse compared to the Japanese V6's.The 3.8 V6 are a very robust, torquey engine. The HF V6 was meant to be a free revving refined engine designed from scratch. The major criticism of the V6 in all the road test is the engine coarsness.

What diesel engine in the camry are you talking about, they only came with petrol engines ? Are you talking about exhaust noise or engine noise ?

[charged]

Compared to the Commodore/ Falcon. Even the article highlighted this fact.

In an earlier post your exact quote is as follows

the Aurion drives like shit

All I said was that 95% of the public wouldnt know the difference driving a FWD or RWD chassis and they wouldnt exploit the chassis to its full limits any way. The only place to get the last 5% out of the RWD chassis would be on a race track, so your argument is pointless

[SlickHolden]

Toyota think globally not locally, if they sell 100,000 $30,000 Camry/Aurions and have a 3% margin and Holden sell 20,000 $30,000 Commodores @ a 5% margin, Toyota would still have the higher overall profit. Competitive pricing is how companies sell cars ?
I only see Toyota doing low price here, In some way i think they want this market more soo then any other.




Definetley not having a go at your engine, just the V6 GM powerplants in the Commodores, I have driven Commodores from the VP to VY V6 commodores and the motors are very coarse compared to the Japanese V6's.The 3.8 V6 are a very robust, torquey engine. The HF V6 was meant to be a free revving refined engine designed from scratch. The major criticism of the V6 in all the road test is the engine coarsness.
I always think the ecotec is a better smoother running less rattling engine, But has no balls too 100 off the mark:D.


What diesel engine in the camry are you talking about, they only came with petrol engines ? Are you talking about exhaust noise or engine noise ?
The new 4 cylinder camry just sounded all wrong it made a diesel type sound and a swirling type droning sound all from the engine, And today i seen a jetta diesel that sounded better and thats weird:D. I didn't know they had diesel power the jetta's?.
But before my mate bought the Viva they had a VR berlina, I used too here the engine before i seen the car:p They done the harmonic balancer and it went pretty quite.

[charged]

I always think the ecotec is a better smoother running less rattling engine, But has no balls too 100 off the mark
On the ecotec they retard the timing below 2000rpm, as the VN/P where a little tail happy for the average punter, they also changed the size of the piston skirt on the ecotec motors.
The 2.4 in the camry is not really a very good engine, its designed to be a fairly torquey engine but not really designed to rev with the valve angles on the head and the long stroke. its been round for donkeys years.

[SlickHolden]

On the ecotec they retard the timing below 2000rpm, as the VN/P where a little tail happy for the average punter, they also changed the size of the piston skirt on the ecotec motors
I herd the pistons on the ecotec were weaker then the buicks, But the heads were better free flowing and responded better too bolt ons.

Best way too keep that tail in shape get some big 225's on the rear:D. Right now my rear seems too be biting both rear i'm thinking is the diff about too sign off:eek:

[adrenaline]

All I said was that 95% of the public wouldnt know the difference driving a FWD or RWD chassis and they wouldnt exploit the chassis to its full limits any way. The only place to get the last 5% out of the RWD chassis would be on a race track, so your argument is pointless

It isn't pointless at all. I don't know why you even brought up FWD vs RWD as a whole. Read the article again. They stressed that they were testing for real world conditions, hence the stupid up hill 0-100. In that same comparo, they said that the Aurion isn't the driver's car. They sure as hell weren't at a race track to figure that out.

What you are saying is that the Commodore and Aurion, RWD and FWD, drive the same. THEY DON'T. Your chassis arguement is pointless.




Compared to the Commodore/ Falcon. Even the article highlighted this fact.

In an earlier post your exact quote is as follows


the Aurion drives like shit

Nice try. Don't insult me by taking what I say out of context. I remember what I post, because I was there when I posted it ;)


Compared to the others, the Aurion drives like shit, it looks like shit. It's a V6 Camry.

[Blue Supra]

now now boys, theres enough room in the sandbox for everyones egos :p

[SlickHolden]

Nice try. Don't insult me by taking what I say out of context. I remember what I post, because I was there when I posted it ;)
LOL:D i love that mate thats what sigs are made of:D
I'm going too say that one day:).

[charged]

Ive brought up the chassis argument because its a known fact that fwd chassis with a big engine will understeer before a RWD chassis with a big engine will understeer when they are being hustled through corners quickly. What Im saying is what percentage of the public will get to that level ?. The Aurion was never going to outhandle the latest VE, but it looks like Toyota have done a reasonable job with the chassis development and suspension. Compared to the Avalon its a huge improvement.

Extract from the Drive road test about the Aurion handling


The Aurion is a decent drive and local suspension engineers have done well to disguise the car's Camry origins. The Commodore feels more secure in corners than the Aurion but the Toyota is by no means an embarrassment in this regard. In the typical Toyota way, the Aurion's electronic stability control cuts in early, well before the car is about to get out of shape. The difference in grip may be due to the fact that the Aurion has the skinniest tyres among this trio. The Aurion SX6 is equipped with Michelin Energy Saver tyres, said to last longer and create less friction. Friction is what gives you grip but this trade-off may mean that you could get significantly longer wear out of the Aurion's tyres than you would with those on the sporty Falcon and Commodores. The Falcon XR6 runs on 235/45 tyres, the Commodore SV6 245/45 and Aurion SX6 on 215/60.

Doesnt exactly say the Aurion is embarrassed by the Falcon or Commodore, also the Falcon and Commodore have a larger tyre with a lower profile, that makes a difference handling wise also


Originally Posted by ADRENALINE
Nice try. Don't insult me by taking what I say out of context
Im not insulting you, just stating what you wrote about the Aurion:p

personally I will wait for a more indepth road test or test one myself before I make a judgement.

[syko]

but it looks like Toyota have done a reasonable job with the chassis development and suspension. Compared to the Avalon its a huge improvement.

So your saying near enough is good enough, come on if toyota is going to slap a "sportivo" badge on their car it could of tried a bit harder. A spension tweak and a body kit isn't enough. Sure most people aren't going to push there cars to the limit but what about those that do they're going to find out what sportivo actually means, jack shit.

[SlickHolden]

What shocks me is FWD is generally known too handle corners faster but can press for understeer or torqesteer, But the Aurion seems too really not offer that FWD cornering. Instead the comfalc eat corners.
(Yesterday a guy in a new Honda Accord 2.4 VVtec or something it said took off at the light next too me with a FWD wheelie:p)

I remember the last Commodore had 205 tyres:eek: The VN had 185:eek: death by wheels.

But you got too say if toyota went out too pick a fight with the XR6 and SV6 they did so in equipment and engine looks i think:) only. No manual option and i wonder if there are some larger tyres and rims for the Aurion... I still wont shut up about that one give me some 18" rims for it:D.
It kills the Avalon in all areas i wouldn't even compare the Avalon it would be a insult. even if the Avalon had a decant engine which it seem too i didn't mind the engine it was the car i disliked.
(My brother Avalong drive and never bring it back!:p).

I think if anyone thought VE didn't move the game too a new level then they might also think the same with the Aurion. And short term ford is feeling the pain, But long term they are in the box seat watching.

[adrenaline]

Ive brought up the chassis argument because its a known fact that fwd chassis with a big engine will understeer before a RWD chassis with a big engine will understeer when they are being hustled through corners quickly. What Im saying is what percentage of the public will get to that level ?. The Aurion was never going to outhandle the latest VE, but it looks like Toyota have done a reasonable job with the chassis development and suspension. Compared to the Avalon its a huge improvement.

Extract from the Drive road test about the Aurion handling



Doesnt exactly say the Aurion is embarrassed by the Falcon or Commodore, also the Falcon and Commodore have a larger tyre with a lower profile, that makes a difference handling wise also

I wouldn't expect it to be 'embarrassed'. With that said, it is still not nearly as good as the Commodore. They highlighted this in the conclusion by saying it wasn't the driver's car, and that they would like to see combo of a Commodore with an Aurion powertrain. I look forward to a test from Motor, comparing them. Those wheels along must demolish alot of grip.




Im not insulting you, just stating what you wrote about the Aurion:p

I didn't write that the Aurion handles like shit. Even when I said it was relative to the Commodore/ Falcon, you erased parts of my quote from the previous page to make it look like I did say the Aurion is shit ;)

[charged]

So your saying near enough is good enough, come on if toyota is going to slap a "sportivo" badge on their car it could of tried a bit harder. A spension tweak and a body kit isn't enough.
The same could be said for Holden, why didnt they put the direct injection on the V6 to gain the extra kilowatts and economy, why havent ford given the BF a bigger facelift. Why didnt ford put the 6 speed auto and stability contol as standard, it all comes down to price and compromise.

Regarding the bodykit and Ford and Holden as you say slap on a body kit and tweak the suspension,what exaclty do the Ford and Holden do to the SV6 and XR6 ?, if you want more you buy a SS, SS-V, HSV XR6T, XR8, or a FPV. The same thing with the Aurion if you want more you will buy the TRD version.

[adrenaline]

The same could be said for Holden, why didnt they put the direct injection on the V6 to gain the extra kilowatts and economy, why havent ford given the BF a bigger facelift. Why didnt ford put the 6 speed auto and stability contol as standard, it all comes down to price and compromise.

Regarding the bodykit and Ford and Holden as you say slap on a body kit and tweak the suspension,what exaclty do the Ford and Holden do to the SV6 and XR6 ?, if you want more you buy a SS, SS-V, HSV XR6T, XR8, or a FPV. The same will thing with the Aurion if you want more you will buy the TRD version.

Giving the BF a bigger facelift would have been stupid this close to Orion. Having a ZF 6 speed across the range is also, economically, a stupid idea.

Ford and Holden already have good donor cars, being the XT and Omega. They need not tweak more than the suspension to improve the ride. The Aurion, on the other hand, has a Camry as it's donor car (the new Camry recently got whipped in a comparo against the older Mazda 6). And if Toyota had real sporting intentions, they would have given the Aurion some decent rubber. Not this long life no grip garbage.

[charged]

True the Camry isnt much cop Ive read the test and the Mazda 6 has the edge in most areas. Toyota has done a very good job on the Sporty Aurion in that case if the Camry is so bad. The tyres are a bit of a joke IMHO. Looking at the Aurion as a pure private buying enthusiast, I would probably wouldnt buy one, but there will be plenty of fleet managers doing the sums and finding out the Aurion is a good thing. The fleet manager doesnt give a toss if the Commodore handles better than the Aurion he just worried about running costs, fleet discounts etc. Toyota have stated publicy that are after more fleet sales.


Having a ZF 6 speed across the range is also, economically, a stupid idea.

Exactly right every car maker has budget/cost constraints for their vehicles. Toyota chose rightly or wrongly to increase the the equipment/saftey package as a selling point against the XR6 and SV6, as they would probably never match them in outright handling. Will the buyers be saying the SV6 handles better than the Aurion, so the SV6 gets the nod or will they look at the whole overall package and decide which one to buy.

The Aurion wont outsell the Falcon or Commodore but it will definetley steal some sales.

The sales figures for private cars(not fleet) are dominated by the Japanese, if I recall the Commodore comes in at No 7 and the Falcon isnt even in the top 10. Toyota are trying to crack the fleet market, thats where most of the sales are made.

[nota]

Really mate? Have you actually driven one? I have - I'll report back next week when I've had the chance to "hopefully" drive a VE over the coming weekend. It [Aurion] is most definitely not "shit" - even compared to the others.
Keen to read your impressions of how Aurion rates against Mitsu's already forgotten 380, as well as VE etc :)

[charged]

Keen to read your impressions of how Aurion rates against Mitsu's already forgotten 380, as well as VE etc :)
Our state treasurer has flown to japan to talk to the heads of MMC in regards to the long term future of the Tonsley plant located in the southern suburbs of Adelaide. Hopefully he comes back with good news, as there is a lot of people in South Oz that rely on Mitubishi putting food on the table and a roof over their heads. I saw a black 380gt with 18in wheels and it looked fantastic at a Mitsi dealer while checking out the Tritons with a mate, even he was amazed how the wheels lifted it. Its a pity they havent sold more, they are keenly priced and packaged compared to the Commodore and Falcon.

[motorsportnerd]

Compared to the Commodore/ Falcon. Even the article highlighted this fact.

And quite clearly stated it wasn't far behind or disgraced. I'll let you know about the VE - but the Auriion certainly isn't far behind the BA Falcon (remember - no suspension changes to the BF or BF11). For all but racetrack scenarios probably only a few pecent at the margin.

[motorsportnerd]

I highly doubt that the Aurion has anything near 95% of the dynamic ability of the VE.

I see a problem with what you are saying. This is the sports segment, where the manufacturers market how well their cars handle and drive. You can't simply forget about handling when you are buying what is supposed to be a sporty model. The Falcon and especially the Commodore sports models live up to the sports name. The Aurion apparently doesn't (even that article from Drive had to admit it wasn't a driver's car).

If it's not a driver's car, then don't award it the best sports model. So simple, yet Drive doesn't understand.



I would prefer a Falcon powertrain any day. Sure it's missing 10kW on the Aurion, but it more than makes up for that in torque. Kilowatts aren't everything.


Um....the XR6, SV6 and SX6 are NOT sports cars or even performance cars. Only the SV6 has a different engine to the base model. What they are is "sporty" family cars with a few suspension mods, body kit and extra equipment.
There is no sports/performance version of the Aurion yet - that will be the TRD Sportivo. For Ford/Holden it the XR6Tubo/SS-V/HSV variants - which no current Aurion competes with.
As for the Falcon drivetrain - yes great engine. The four speed auto is good - for a four speed. Yet to drive a six-speed auto. Until I do, I put the Aurion's engine/transmission combo in front - marginally. As I'll explain next week.

[STREETFIRE]

The four speed auto is good - for a four speed. Yet to drive a six-speed auto.
Falcon already has a ZF six-speed auto in the XR6, even though there's a four-speed auto available.

[motorsportnerd]

Falcon already has a ZF six-speed auto in the XR6, even though there's a four-speed auto available.

That was my point - I'm saying I haven't driven a six-speed Falcon yet. No doubt I will at some time.

[adrenaline]

Um....the XR6, SV6 and SX6 are NOT sports cars or even performance cars. Only the SV6 has a different engine to the base model. What they are is "sporty" family cars with a few suspension mods, body kit and extra equipment.


It really depends how you use the 'sports car' label. I couldn't agree more with the latter part of the quote.

[nota]

Our state treasurer has flown to japan to talk to the heads of MMC in regards to the long term future of the Tonsley plant located in the southern suburbs of Adelaide. Hopefully he comes back with good news, as there is a lot of people in South Oz that rely on Mitubishi putting food on the table and a roof over their heads.
Apparently the news is positive, according to TV reports tonight :) Let's hope it injects some measure of faith in this long-running local enterprise, and with it the local jobs

Tried to locate a web-page mentioning the above (couldn't find anything) but I did come across this strange and somewhat pathetic site below
http://www.mitsubishisucks.com/news/australia/

Meanwhile it seems Holden is reducing it's manufacturing workforce for Family II 4cyl engines by 200 staff, due to waning export demand from Korea

I saw a black 380gt with 18in wheels and it looked fantastic at a Mitsi dealer while checking out the Tritons with a mate, even he was amazed how the wheels lifted it. Its a pity they havent sold more, they are keenly priced and packaged compared to the Commodore and Falcon.
To my eyes the 380 is a pleasingly attractive car (way superior looks to Aurion/Camry imo, including quite a few other competing machines) and reportedly the dynamics are well-honed for local conditions. As an aside I really like Mitsu's colour palette for the 380

Despite being far & away the cheapest to purchase, the Mitsu certainly offers decent mumbo ... amusingly the humble 'fleet cheapie' base-model version (thankfully available with manual trans) of 380 outperforms ALL of these much pricier XR6/SV6/SX6 6cyl budget-sports sedans. Haggling starts @ under $28k :D which as you rightly say represents excellent value, although brand-whores need not apply ;)



nb: 'Wheels' mag figures for the base 380 manual are 0-100 in an excellent 7.2 secs ... and 0-400m in 15.3 which btw for perspective is only 0.2 secs behind the quickest 1/4 mile test figures that 'Wheels' ever recorded for a stock Clevo-engined Falcon GT! :eek:
(XA GT 351 Tudor manual with the big-port 4V heads)

[thatdbeme]

To my eyes the 380 is a pleasingly attractive car (way superior looks to Aurion/Camry imo, including quite a few other competing machines) and reportedly the dynamics are well-honed for local conditions. As an aside I really like Mitsu's colour palette for the 380

Despite being far & away the cheapest to purchase, the Mitsu certainly offers decent mumbo ... amusingly the humble 'fleet cheapie' base-model version (thankfully available with manual trans) of 380 outperforms ALL of these much pricier XR6/SV6/SX6 6cyl budget-sports sedans. Haggling starts @ under $28k :D which as you rightly say represents excellent value, although brand-whores need not apply ;)


One major problem is that they are now being exluded from these kind of comparisons. and when they do get included, they dont seem to get a similarly priced model reviewed. eg about 6 months ago when they reviewed the base model 380 against cars with a price tag $10,000 more than the 380.

[nota]

One major problem is that they are now being exluded from these kind of comparisons. and when they do get included, they dont seem to get a similarly priced model reviewed. eg about 6 months ago when they reviewed the base model 380 against cars with a price tag $10,000 more than the 380.
Yes indeed

I'd have thought that Aurion's natural competitor is first & foremost the 380. The exclusion (or manipulation of public opinion) by media is particularly ridiculous, and blatant, as the 380 only debuted on the market one single year ago. But apparently it has already dropped off the radar and is being 'removed from conciousness' by the powers that be, who wish us to view cars as mere fashion statements .. ie: best = newest

As John Mellor said on the TV last night, the 380 is a good car that is virtually being 'talked off the market'. This situation becomes very difficult to arrest, and it almost always snowballs into oblivion. The same fate happened to Nissan's excellent locally-produced Pulsar - nowdays Nissan imports all of its cars :(

Imo the Mitsu is a thoroughly decent unit - at a knockout price!

But to paraphrase Roosevelt in the Great Depression: The only thing 380 has to fear, is fear itself ..

[SlickHolden]

We as car enthusiast or real world drivers haven't wiped the 380, The jurno's car mags have. The pimple heads that don't rate it on sales maybe ?
I still like it and touching on was it charged? The 380 black with 18" rims, There is one in Melbourne i have past 4 times it's been done up for some time now. 18" rims lowered looks real nice too.
I swear someone had a pic of it some time back?.

[adrenaline]

Imo the Mitsu is a thoroughly decent unit - at a knockout price!

Oh yes, the price is fantastic. It makes me wonder why people aren't buying them - only 37 private buyers last month. Sure, people are afraid of Mitsu's situation, but that can't explain just 37 private sales.

[fpv_gtho]

The car needed to be on the market with the VY and BA. Its a decent car on the market now with a bad rap, not helped by the prices being slashed. Put it against an 02 BA and it may have been class leader.

Furthermore, it wouldve made VE look ordinary.

[nota]

Oh yes, the price is fantastic. It makes me wonder why people aren't buying them - only 37 private buyers last month. Sure, people are afraid of Mitsu's situation, but that can't explain just 37 private sales.
To explain your doubts, I'd be confident of these things:

Like it or not the 380 is a valid market competitor, including against its local competition. It just happens to be a lot cheaper. And that however this particular car is presented to us by media (and thus gains its public perception & identity) may not be in fact a true reflection of the product itself. Or the future ownership experience it offers - whether 380 succeeds or fails. Despite breeezy paving over by the tiros, the value equasion should not be ignored. Not everybody (or every family) can afford +$40k cars

In real terms, the 380 MRRP seems a not inconsiderable $8k, or 20+% (and more with haggling) less than its equivalent market competitors. Given their added expense, these market competitors of 380 may not go on to deliver a cheaper ownership 'experience' .. or indeed a superior ownership experience

Regards private sales, what is the negative side to choosing a 'pre-depreciated' car, like 380 :p for much less initial outlay (eg funded via YOUR debt and/or YOUR savings) ..?

How it (value) IS ignored has more to do with 'sheeple' than to substance, into a flock where 'herd mentality' aligns more with non-enthusiast base ego, than to fair & realistic appraisal

[motorsportnerd]

The car needed to be on the market with the VY and BA. Its a decent car on the market now with a bad rap, not helped by the prices being slashed. Put it against an 02 BA and it may have been class leader.

Furthermore, it wouldve made VE look ordinary.

I really don't know why the 380 has a bad rep. Its a excellent car - at least the equal of a Falcon BA (and therefore the four-speed auto BF as well) in my opinion as a drivers/all round car. That is also cheap may raise the perception that it is low quality. It is no more a low quality product than any of the other three Aussie made cars. Its predecessor the Magna was also a good car and real world surveys say that it is extremely reliable. No reason why the 380 won't be reliable as well.


In real terms, the 380 MRRP seems a not inconsiderable $8k, or 20+% (and more with haggling) less than its equivalent market competitors. Given their added expense, these market competitors of 380 may not go on to deliver a cheaper ownership 'experience' .. or indeed a superior ownership experience.

There are still some question marks about the resale value of the 380 - this based of course on the previous Magna. Excellent low mileage 2004-5 Magnas can be picked up for less then $15K - less than half their new price. If the 380 repeats this, its lower starting point won't help it much. And this may be putting private buyers off.

One advantage the Toyota Aurion will have over the 380 (and also over Falcon and Commodore) is that all versions from the base model to the luxury versions will hold pretty good resale. Using the Camry V6 as a guide for this basis, which tends to hold better values in the second hand market than do similar year/mileage Falcons/Commodores.

[motorsportnerd]

I'd have thought that Aurion's natural competitor is first & foremost the 380. The exclusion (or manipulation of public opinion) by media is particularly ridiculous, and blatant, as the 380 only debuted on the market one single year ago. But apparently it has already dropped off the radar and is being 'removed from conciousness' by the powers that be, who wish us to view cars as mere fashion statements .. ie: best = newest


Of course the Aurion's natural competitor is the 380. Won't stop us comparing the Aurion with the Falcon or Commodore though.
Also, the Aurion's other natural competitors are the other Japanese FWD V6s - the Maxima and the Accord and the Korean FWD V6 - the Sonata. The last Wheels comparison of six clyinder cars placed the Falcon BF and Maxima equal first - to give an idea of how well the Maxima is regarded. The Accord tends to be forgotten, but a colleague of mine owns one, reckons its a great car and assures me there is no way he'd buy any other six-clyinder family car ahead of the Accord.
Let's also not forgot that the high $20K to high $40K range where the abovementioned cars sit include a vast range of family cars, coupes, hatches and SUVs. Some of which private buyers will shop against each other and across catagories. For example buyers of the Mazda6 or Honda Accord Euro might be tempted by the slightly larger six-clyinder cars. Because most such buyers have a low perception of the quality of the Falcons and Commodores they'll look at the others. And a Toyota that actually drives well might interest them. So I'd argue Aurion also competes for buyers with Accord Euro and Mazda6 and more dangerously with its own sibling the Camry.

[charged]

The 380 is a, good drive, I rate the refinement higher than the BA/VY opposition. I had a brief 30km drive of a VRX when I was over in Tassie and I was suprised how well it went. Handled very well, didnt really push it, but went round enough corners fairly quickly to work out they steer very well.
Was very well packaged and put together. Certainly wouldnt be embarrassed about owning one, preferably a VRX with 18 in wheels. I think the people must be worried about the future of MMA ?


Originally posted by Nota

nb: 'Wheels' mag figures for the base 380 manual are 0-100 in an excellent 7.2 secs ... and 0-400m in 15.3 which btw for perspective is only 0.2 secs behind the quickest 1/4 mile test figures that 'Wheels' ever recorded for a stock Clevo-engined Falcon GT!
(XA GT 351 Tudor manual with the big-port 4V heads)

Its funny really years ago the Brock VK Group A were classified as a firebreathing muscle car, they ran a respectable 15 flat quarter, now we have a heavier FWD smaller engined car that performs to to the same level:)

[thatdbeme]

Of course the Aurion's natural competitor is the 380. Won't stop us comparing the Aurion with the Falcon or Commodore though.
Also, the Aurion's other natural competitors are the other Japanese FWD V6s - the Maxima and the Accord and the Korean FWD V6 - the Sonata. The last Wheels comparison of six clyinder cars placed the Falcon BF and Maxima equal first - to give an idea of how well the Maxima is regarded. The Accord tends to be forgotten, but a colleague of mine owns one, reckons its a great car and assures me there is no way he'd buy any other six-clyinder family car ahead of the Accord.


The maximas are awesome.. had one as hire car (only complaint is the turning circle) however i own and an accord and i definately love it. id definately go back again
One thing about that review... they reviewed the 380 base model in that test, which is priced well below every other car in the test. i still dont know what wheels justification was.

[SlickHolden]

nb: 'Wheels' mag figures for the base 380 manual are 0-100 in an excellent 7.2 secs ... and 0-400m in 15.3 which btw for perspective is only 0.2 secs behind the quickest 1/4 mile test figures that 'Wheels' ever recorded for a stock Clevo-engined Falcon GT! :eek:
(XA GT 351 Tudor manual with the big-port 4V heads)
88VN 92VP V6's scare them:D. I know a bloke that has a VN Lexcen V6 auto that cracked a 6.95 0-100 time with advanced timing on the ecu only, Hows that for scaring your pants:p.... If he dragged a new V8 and they stuffed the start he could embarrass them for 4-8 seconds:D.

[nota]

I really don't know why the 380 has a bad rep. Its a excellent car - at least the equal of a Falcon BA (and therefore the four-speed auto BF as well) in my opinion as a drivers/all round car. That is also cheap may raise the perception that it is low quality. It is no more a low quality product than any of the other three Aussie made cars. Its predecessor the Magna was also a good car and real world surveys say that it is extremely reliable. No reason why the 380 won't be reliable as well.
Saw a quote from a large independant fleet consultant who claimed 380s are proving themselves to be of good quality and very fuss-free in service, as were later Magnas


There are still some question marks about the resale value of the 380 - this based of course on the previous Magna. Excellent low mileage 2004-5 Magnas can be picked up for less then $15K - less than half their new price. If the 380 repeats this, its lower starting point won't help it much. And this may be putting private buyers off.

One advantage the Toyota Aurion will have over the 380 (and also over Falcon and Commodore) is that all versions from the base model to the luxury versions will hold pretty good resale. Using the Camry V6 as a guide for this basis, which tends to hold better values in the second hand market than do similar year/mileage Falcons/Commodores.
Was on the turps when I wrote :rolleyes: so probably not too clear :D but the point I was attempting to make re buying a new 'pre-depreciated' 380 is this:

Private buyers could immediately 'save' up to $8k or more over the cost to buy their equivalent local opposition. So if self-funded then less initial capital outlay expended, or if financed then lower deposit, lower payments and less interest wasted overall

Will Aurion etc be worth this entire $8k extra (more if financed) when the time comes to sell? Possibly/probably but even so, the owner might at best merely break-even against 380 and the extra $8k would be no advantage in real terms. In fact it's a disadvantage if anything (eg 380 owners could afford to send their nagging wives off on enough ecstasy-laden P&O love-cruise trips to hopefully 'do the job') ;)

And for selling it does depend on 'when the times comes'. There may be an $8k difference reflected after two years of ownership (so cost neutral in any case) but how about five or seven? The resale-gap closes as these cars age and I don't see V6 Vientas of that vintage pulling their initial price-premium over Magnas

Hence (to me at least) if you look deeper the much-mentioned 'Mitsu resale calamity' seems an illusion because a 380 may well be not just less expensive to buy, but perhaps also to own

[nota]

Its funny really years ago the Brock VK Group A were classified as a firebreathing muscle car, they ran a respectable 15 flat quarter, now we have a heavier FWD smaller engined car that performs to to the same level
The world we once relied on has disappeared. When new my VK 'Bathurst Special' was around about the fastest ex-showroom car sold you could buy - but gee these days even plebian fwd rentacars would pose a big threat! :mad:

88VN 92VP V6's scare them:D. I know a bloke that has a VN Lexcen V6 auto that cracked a 6.95 0-100 time with advanced timing on the ecu only, Hows that for scaring your pants:p.... If he dragged a new V8 and they stuffed the start he could embarrass them for 4-8 seconds:D.
Recall reading 'Wheels' first test of VN V6s: Exec auto was 15.8 and Exec 5speed (on 185s!) being 15.6. The V6 S manual did 15.4 which would more than scare stock legends like XU-1s and HK 327 Munros, even HT 350s :eek:

[SlickHolden]

Recall reading 'Wheels' first test of VN V6s: Exec auto was 15.8 and Exec 5speed (on 185s!) being 15.6. The V6 S manual did 15.4 which would more than scare stock legends like XU-1s and HK 327 Munros, even HT 350s :eek:
Fast but scary with them miny wheels:D..
Even the EAII S 5 speed was very deadly fast for a 6 back then we had some 6's that would shock some big cars.
Thats why i like a good 6 i wont more power:) a strong 6 gives me more satisfaction then a good v8.

[Blue Supra]

look at the pocket rockets of today, Astra/Focus turbos for example would kill the "muscle" cars of days gone by.

I get ALOT of satisfaction when the ol 2L Turbs beats a 5.7L :D

[SlickHolden]

Yep and there not a bad size too bigger then they look. The old VB was considered a family car when the new vectra was wider then it, And almost longer:eek: And that's considered a medium size car.

[motorsportnerd]

The maximas are awesome.. had one as hire car (only complaint is the turning circle) however i own and an accord and i definately love it. id definately go back again
One thing about that review... they reviewed the 380 base model in that test, which is priced well below every other car in the test. i still dont know what wheels justification was.

Wheels ran that comparison just before Mitsu dropped the prices of the base model 380 down to the current $29,990 for the auto (which was the model Wheels ran in the comparo). They basically said the Mitsu was too expensive at the base model level and then just before the mag arrived on the news stands the price was dropped. It might have changed the order slightly if the 380 was judged on the reduced price.

[SlickHolden]

I think they should have left the 380 at the price it was, They might still sell the same amount now but have a better margin of profit.

[fpv_gtho]

I think they should have left the 380 at the price it was, They might still sell the same amount now but have a better margin of profit.

They wouldve had their reasons for dropping it, despite the perception of desperation that goes with such a method.

You have to figure also, if youre smart you dont pay the sticker price for a car. You either haggle the price down or you get a few free extra's etc. Mitsubishi may have bumped the prices down close to that anyway in order to get a sale. Ford for example were selling BF XR8's well below their $50K asking point apparently, so the price being dropped for BF2 may have been in veign.

[SlickHolden]

They wouldve had their reasons for dropping it, despite the perception of desperation that goes with such a method.

You have to figure also, if youre smart you dont pay the sticker price for a car. You either haggle the price down or you get a few free extra's etc. Mitsubishi may have bumped the prices down close to that anyway in order to get a sale. Ford for example were selling BF XR8's well below their $50K asking point apparently, so the price being dropped for BF2 may have been in veign.
Price drops always scares people into the perception something is wrong.
Here is a $10,000 sound system for just $500. Why what's wrong with it?? Nothing at all, Get ****ed must be something wrong, Nothing wrong at all... Don't believe it i take it home and the thing wont work i come back here and your gone?. No it's perfect 100%.. No deal mate..
And i did this once too:p Stupid me:D.