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Misho
04-07-2004, 05:53 AM
Seems like many people didn't get the chance to see the Misho theory in the other thread. So here is a dedicated thread for it, that I would like to get some important feedback from. That will let me know if the idea is getting any supporters so then maybe I can refine it and actually submit it to the webmasters to possible implement it.
So read carefully and let me know what you think.


THE MISHO THEORY

Ever since this whole reputation system started and everyone seemed to be too busy discussing it and intensive discussions and dedicated threads have been made for it. But I wasnt really convinced with the rep system since its implementation and i knew that it doesnt really reflect the posting quality of the user. So I kept thinking, there must be another way to sort of interpret those numbers that we all have under our nicknames.
Being an engineer, I am pretty good with maths. And being a just-graduated-not-working engineer, I have lots of free time !!
So after some research and calculations, I was able to invent what i like to call "The Misho Ratio". Its a new way to sort of understand each member's reputation and how he got his rep number.
The Misho ratio is basically the number of posts divided by the rep rating of the user. this will yield a posts per rep number (to be called the Misho number). this number shows how many posts that user needed to increase his rep rating by 1 point. obviously the lower ur Misho number, the better ur posts quality. because a user who needed 10 posts to increase his rating by 1 point, is (theoritically) better than a user who needed 60 posts to increase his rep rating by 1 point.
the following is a list of some of the older users and their Misho numbers at the time this study was started:

henk4 1008/45 = 22.4

fpv_gtho 3610/41 = 88.0

Egg Nog 1260/50 = 25.2

crisis 1292/53 = 24.4

Misho 677/29 = 23.3

Matra 805/46 = 17.5

NoOne 801/44 = 18.2

Wouter 317/46 = 6.9

IBrake4Rainbows 234/42 = 5.6

this however is just the first phase of the Misho rep system. and it still has some weaknesses. this system is more suited to users with close number of posts. it is unfair to use this system to compare someone that has 5000 posts with someone that has 50 posts. why? because a brand new user with 20 posts and 10 rep points, has a Misho ratio of 2. a very low number that doesnt truly reflect his posts' quality.
we can see how the best Misho numbers were reached by the 2 users that have substantially fewer posts that most of the other users on the list. (not to say that they dont deserve it).
what could be done to overcome this problem, is an extensive study of all the users numbers (posts and rep rating). then a correlation could be done to result in "range factors". what these will do, is to sort of level out all our Misho numbers and make them comparable to eachother without having to worry about no. of posts.
anyways, i hope this makes things a bit clearer (or perhaps more complicated!) to all of you. i am not sure if i will carry out the rest of the system tweaking in the near future or not. but if someone is interested, then maybe they can start it and i will help.

as for the range method thing, well i still havent fully developed it yet and i am not sure about how it will work. but yes, it will be kind of subjective. but thats not my personal subjectivity, the factors will be derived from the actual numbers we already have (no. of posts and rep ratings). it will be an empirical system, but that will at least reflect posting quality. (for those who dont know, empirical means non-scientific, rather developed from extensive research and fooling around!).
we all saw how big fpv_gtho's Misho number is. is that coz he is a bad user ? its mainly due to the enormous number of posts he has. dont forget that the rep system was never fair anyways. new users started with 10, while old users had the previlage of gathering big rating numbers at the same time that other old users inactive at the start of the system, started with zero. we need a solution to put us all on the same field, if the rep system is to be of true relevance.
to sort of explain what i meant by range factors, then we all need to calculate true Misho numbers. so calculate ur Misho number and then multiply it by the range u belong to. this will produce ur true Misho number.

200-500 posts multiply by 1.00
501-1000 multiply by 0.85
1001-1500 multiply by 0.75
1501-2000 multiply by 0.65
2001-2500 multiply by 0.55
2501-3000 multiply by 0.45
3001-3500 multiply by 0.35

please note that these factors are for explanatory purposes only and do not reflect what we are to use if the system ever gets implemented.

at the end, i will have to say that i never was a fan of the rep system anyways. reputation is earned and we always knew who deserved our respect and who doesn't, even ages before the rep system. i have though of this new system only to help all of those users who are really worried about the rep ratings gain a better, more realistic understanding of "reputation" !!

yes, you are right in saying that we all have to be on the same field for evaluation. there are a number of ways to do so, one of which is recalculating our rep ratings using standard methodology for all users. but i guess that will be too complicated to do now, hence the modification factors that i mentioned.

anyways, i reckon that the modification range factors are a bit of a complicated issue. but i truly think that the Misho ratio is a good representation of the rep ratings. as mentioned earlier, it shows how many posts it needed that user to obtain 1 rep point.

A user with 3000 posts cannot be compared to a user with 500 posts. Because he had a bigger opportunity to accumulate positive rep ratings.
Another advantage of the modified Misho ratio is that it allows all users to be comparable to eachother regardless of how many posts they have or when they joined.

thanks a lot for your time and i apologise for the long and complicated posts.
have fun improving ur Misho ratios !!!

;)

carlover
04-07-2004, 02:00 PM
Carlover=10.8. That was my best Rating ever. :cool:

DodgeNitroBIRM
04-07-2004, 09:24 PM
<scratches head> Why is there a need for a reputation system anyhow? Makes no realy sense to me.

Quiggs
04-07-2004, 09:42 PM
I read all that and now my head is spinning. Thanks a lot Misho! :)

Hema
04-07-2004, 11:50 PM
well , good effort my friend , I tried to read most of it and it sounds good & at least fair

btw you have a lot of free time :p

Misho
04-08-2004, 06:44 AM
complicated ? yes
fair ? yes
more representative of posting quality than current system in place ? yes

even if u dont fully understand it, its a better system that wont require any changes for users. It will remain the same way it is now, when you read a post u find deserving, just click and give a rep point. The Misho ratio gets calculated automatically.

I am never going to lose hope that this system gets implemented some day !

whiteballz
04-08-2004, 04:09 PM
dont loose hope. its a great idea! fairly complicated, but once you grasp it its very simple no?

Hema
04-08-2004, 04:54 PM
just a final question to the moderators ...
is it technically possible ?
I mean the calculating system , ... etc.

bballmikey105
04-08-2004, 10:29 PM
Pretty good idea misho but I dont see the point of it. I can see where you're going but it is much more explanatory the way it is. There doesn't need to be a Misho ratio because as you can see I have pretty much no rep points which means you can immeadiately tell I have very low quality posts :( and most new users wont know what it is so thats my two cents. If it said under the user name number of posts, rep pts, and also misho ratio, I guess it might work but I still would rather not have it.

Egg Nog
04-09-2004, 05:02 PM
Here's one counter-Misho theory thing that I've noticed... an example.

I feel less compelled to give rep points to someone like M&A, Falcon, or crisis because I'd rather give points to good new members and contributors on the verge of 20 points. I feel that a new member who posts something of M&A quality should get loads of points, and that folks at higher up on the list shouln't get nearly as many.

Thus, an accurate Misho scale graph wouldn't really show a direct relationship. :)

IBrake4Rainbows
04-09-2004, 08:32 PM
The misho theory does sound like a good idea, and i do find that the Rep system isn't really that representitive, but why do we need to rate other users anyway? i know who makes good posts, and the new guys who make good posts (Motorsportnerd being a good example) only recently crossed the 20 point marker, despite making some seriously valid comments.

this is just my opinion, take it at face value, but i don't rely on the Rep system to make an opinion of someone, i doubt if i'd use the misho ratio as well.

Spastik_Roach
04-09-2004, 10:02 PM
Well when I was new here, it reaplly helped me sort out the bullshitters from the good people.

IBrake4Rainbows
04-09-2004, 10:11 PM
I still think you should make up your own opinion on users,even when new. Just because they have low rep doesn't necessarily mean there a bad poster, it could mean someone has taken offence to something they have said, or they could be as new as you!

Spastik_Roach
04-09-2004, 11:41 PM
How new they are is on the joining date located above the rep rating, and I guess is also shown by the posting count.

motorsportnerd
04-10-2004, 07:28 AM
The misho theory does sound like a good idea, and i do find that the Rep system isn't really that representitive, but why do we need to rate other users anyway? i know who makes good posts, and the new guys who make good posts (Motorsportnerd being a good example) only recently crossed the 20 point marker, despite making some seriously valid comments.

this is just my opinion, take it at face value, but i don't rely on the Rep system to make an opinion of someone, i doubt if i'd use the misho ratio as well.

Thanks, that makes me blush. I can think of one other problem with both the rep system and the Misho theory. Many users probably select the threads or sections they're interested in and stick with those. So, there may be very good quality posts in, say, the Australia forum, but not everybody reads them and thus rates them. That may partly explain why FPV has a comparatively low Misho rating. His posts are excellent and certainly would not reflect a low Misho rating. Perhaps it is because he posts predominately in the Australian forum and his posts in that section aren't read by many of the UCP users???
For example, I didn't really encounter IB4R's posts till I posted in the Classic Cars section. Therefore, I didn't realise how good his posts were.
I know I tended to stick to the Australian and Motorsport forums to start with. And I still haven't really waded into the European/Asian/American forums. There are heaps of threads and sections to wade through, and we all have our particular interests. Perhaps this reflects in otherwise excellent posters having comparatively low rep/Misho ratios?
BTW, with 126 posts I have a Misho rating of 5.4, which is clearly out of whack with those who have 1000 posts or more. Perhaps a minimum number of posts will be needed before a Misho rating can be applied.

Misho
04-16-2004, 04:19 PM
Perhaps a minimum number of posts will be needed before a Misho rating can be applied.

excellent observation !! +1 :)

but if you take a closer look at the very first post in this thread, you will see that in the range factors table, i specified that the Misho rating only starts after 200 posts !
this means that u didnt fully concentrate when reading the post ! -1 :)
coz if u think of it, u need sometime to be able to properly and accurately judge a person. even in real life, u dont just judge someone based on first impressions (although they are important). that is why i think that the Misho is to be applied after 200 posts, at which the user can be fairy judged.

Misho
04-16-2004, 04:27 PM
it is much more explanatory the way it is.
.

no it isnt !!!!!!!! have u even read my post ?!!! :D


There doesn't need to be a Misho ratio because as you can see I have pretty much no rep points
.

but u also dont have many posts! so you didnt write much to get rep points for. that is exactly why there needs to be a Misho ratio !! man, please read the theory again !! :D


If it said under the user name number of posts, rep pts, and also misho ratio, I guess it might work

that is exactly what i want. it must say ur Misho ratio under the rep points. otherwise what good would the theory be ?!

Misho
04-16-2004, 04:37 PM
Here's one counter-Misho theory thing that I've noticed....
good thing ur thinking of the theory at least !!




I feel less compelled to give rep points to someone like M&A, Falcon, or crisis because I'd rather give points to good new members and contributors on the verge of 20 points. I feel that a new member who posts something of M&A quality should get loads of points, and that folks at higher up on the list shouln't get nearly as many.


i have to disagree with you on that. why would u do something like that ??
you should rate a post (either + or -) based entirely on its content. without even looking at who posted it.



Thus, an accurate Misho scale graph wouldn't really show a direct relationship. :)

please keep in mind that the Misho theory is not error-free. nor is supposed to eliminate/replace the currently used reputation system. it is just a better, more representative form of reflecting the quality of the posts made.
it is designed to improve the current system and work with it.

Misho
04-16-2004, 04:40 PM
How new they are is on the joining date located above the rep rating, and I guess is also shown by the posting count.

posting count is much more relevant than joining date. so basically we need something to relate the posting count with the rep rating, hence the Misho Theory !!

Misho
04-16-2004, 04:48 PM
The misho theory does sound like a good idea,
.

thanks. it is a truly magnificent idea if u ask me !!!



i doubt if i'd use the misho ratio as well.

the Misho ratio is based on the rep count. they sort of complete eachother. so if u dont rely on the rep count, then the misho ratio is also useless for you.


Just because they have low rep doesn't necessarily mean there a bad poster, it could mean someone has taken offence to something they have said.

if they offended someone, that makes them a bad poster!! and to prevent the issue of stupid, ignorant users giving away negative repuations, the system only allows users with 20+ rep count to make a mathematically effective rating.

360GTC
04-16-2004, 07:06 PM
You seem really psyched on your misho ratio.....which is great, and i think its a great theory but your right it isnt errorr proof. Like ibrake4rainbows said you can have a low rep cuz some took offense, that doesnt mean you posted something bad, it means you posted your oppinion and someone didnt like it. Other than that i think the misho ration should be put in effect right now and below everyones avatar it should say your ratio.

Great idea!

Spastik_Roach
04-17-2004, 10:10 PM
Misho btw, awesome new sig! Very funny, I think I might just add it to the Sig Awards.

Misho
04-18-2004, 05:06 AM
Misho btw, awesome new sig! Very funny, I think I might just add it to the Sig Awards.


be my guest !! although i think it will make all the other signatures obsolete !! :)

crisis
04-18-2004, 07:47 PM
thanks. it is a truly magnificent idea if u ask me !!!



the Misho ratio is based on the rep count. they sort of complete eachother. so if u dont rely on the rep count, then the misho ratio is also useless for you.



if they offended someone, that makes them a bad poster!! and to prevent the issue of stupid, ignorant users giving away negative repuations, the system only allows users with 20+ rep count to make a mathematically effective rating.
Perhasp Misho, my man, you would have more success in promoting your theory if your werent so humble. ;)

Misho
04-19-2004, 10:19 AM
welcome back crisis !! :)


if only anyone here can tell me why most of you guys hate this theory so much, i might try and solve that issue ! why do u hate the Misho ratio ??
its just a number under each user's rep count !! :D

Misho
04-19-2004, 10:20 AM
and to prove how humble i can be , i am going right now to the UCP legacy thread to post my own legacy.
can u guess what is it ?!! :D

Matra et Alpine
04-19-2004, 11:04 AM
Anyway Misho, to bring it over from the other thread.

Like all engineer's you have only worked in the 3 dimensions of your training.
You've forgotten the need to add time to the rating system.
You discounted the joiing date too quickly as engineer's are seldom trained to think in more than 3 deimensions :)
500 posts over a year equal to 500 posts in a week ?
CLEARLY NOT.

So, put your text books aside and learn common sense :) :)

:) :) nothing is fair. LIFE isn't fair. :) :)

PLEASE note the smileys !!!!!

And one over-riding lesson from the world of motorsport.
The great Colin Chapman always designed things to be JUST enough.
Often other teamsn, engineers and academics would scorn his ideas and solutions.
I follow his model :)

Misho
04-19-2004, 11:18 AM
i left out many factors (such as time) to pass the KISS test !! :)
didnt want to make it too complicated !!

OWNED !!

Matra et Alpine
04-19-2004, 11:27 AM
i left out many factors (such as time) to pass the KISS test !! :)
didnt want to make it too complicated !!

OWNED !!
But to include quantity and NOT include time negates the value.
You can make 500 panels in a press in either a day or an hour.
The ones done in an hour will be inferior :)

Suggest you look into the theory and practicalities of TQC before continuing.
( Now I will really worry about our education system if that stumps you as much as KISS does )

:) Adding quantity and not time is trying to be half-pregnant. It doesn't work :)

Misho
04-19-2004, 11:36 AM
You can make 500 panels in a press in either a day or an hour.
The ones done in an hour will be inferior :)


if they are inferior then you should get -ve ratings for them and ur Misho ratio will detoriate.
so again the Misho ratio represents the impact of ur posts effectively !


BTW, does anyone here give -ve ratings ?? other than giving them to obvious childish people that only post a couple of posts and never show up again ?

Misho
04-19-2004, 11:38 AM
:) Adding quantity and not time is trying to be half-pregnant. It doesn't work :)

i know a lady that once got half-pregnant !! she gave birth to a couple of legs and a stomach !! :)

Matra et Alpine
04-19-2004, 01:50 PM
if they are inferior then you should get -ve ratings for them and ur Misho ratio will detoriate.
so again the Misho ratio represents the impact of ur posts effectively !
Only works if neg points are delivered in an equal manner to positive.(sic)
Human psychology tells you that will NOT happen, we all tend to be more positive than negative.
So a huge assumption which doens't take into account the human nature of the 'machine' you are modelling.
( Weinberg's Psychology of Computer Programming is an old text, but was ground-breaking and still provides lessons in the role and attitudes of PEOPLE in any system ( software or otherwise ) )

BTW, does anyone here give -ve ratings ?? other than giving them to obvious childish people that only post a couple of posts and never show up again ?
no, only to those childish folks ( 2 in my time ).
I think some like their rep points and it would be churlish to penalise them for one post or point of view.
So your control system has a heavily skewed feedback which isn't accounted in the Misho rating.
Neither is boredom, innovation or repetiveness.
See you did have some KISS in it.
However, by removign these you introduce an error ( perhaps significant ) into the model which is unlikely to be any 'better' than the simplest ( thank you Colin Chapman :) )

BTW, TQC ?????? :)

Matra et Alpine
04-19-2004, 01:52 PM
i know a lady that once got half-pregnant !! she gave birth to a couple of legs and a stomach !! :)
Well being the pedant, that was WHOLLY pregnant of an unviable foetus.

Misho
04-19-2004, 05:45 PM
so if i make it simple, you say its not accurate.
and if i make it more involved, you say it too complicated and useless !!
what can i do ??? is it my fault that i am trying to improve the system currently in use ??
i have said it before and i will say it again, the Misho ratio is an improvement to the current system and is intended to work with it.

as for the "errors" with the Misho ratio that u have mentioned, do they also apply to the system currently in use ??

the answer is YES.

so why didnt u mention them b4 ?!!! :D

dont be hating !! lets just all unite on the fact that the Misho ratio is a significant improvement to the system currently in place so that Wouter can actually implement it !!

Matra et Alpine
04-19-2004, 06:34 PM
so if i make it simple, you say its not accurate.
and if i make it more involved, you say it too complicated and useless !!
what can i do ??? is it my fault that i am trying to improve the system currently in use ??
i have said it before and i will say it again, the Misho ratio is an improvement to the current system and is intended to work with it.

as for the "errors" with the Misho ratio that u have mentioned, do they also apply to the system currently in use ??

the answer is YES.

so why didnt u mention them b4 ?!!! :D

dont be hating !! lets just all unite on the fact that the Misho ratio is a significant improvement to the system currently in place so that Wouter can actually implement it !!

All you are doing is replacing one set of errors with others.

You haven't REALLY taken on the complexity of the differnt ratings you will give the various posting percentiles.

As I'd said at the start KISS.

The system today is simple.
It has errors.
The Misho rating is more complex.
It has errors.
Creating a realistic model is VERY complex and guess what.
even IT will have errors ( tho admittedlay with a lot of effort only small )

Trying to make a better 'rating' system forgets that the fundamental INPUT is SUBJECTIVE. So objective sysmts control modesl won't work.

With the various feedbacks in the forum - written abuse, ignoring posts and reps points - then simple modelling will fail as you are in an open control system which will exhibit chaotic behaviour.

So applying KISS, Chapman and if it aint broke don't fix it then I was just pointing out that in fixing it you will only bring in another broke system.

Going back to first principles in TQC...
- What are all the things identifiable and measurable with problems in forums ?
- - Doing Pareto analysis, which one comes out top ?
- - - Is it significantly ahead of the others ?
- - - - If yes, would any fix decrease it by an order of magnitude ?
THEN - and only then - think about applying that fix :)

You're idea is interesting and a nice intellectual solution.
But engineering is about PRACTICAL solutions and if you've looked up the sources and situations of the various quotes I've used it may have opened your eyes to that.
There again, maybe not :D

The point I am making Misho, is that the best engineers know when NOT to tinker.
I was trying to point that out.
Mental masturbation is fun, but lets be practical wrt to making changes to the forum.
I'd rather Wouter addressed getting DivX/MPEG4 videos supported as attachments and embedded as giving more value than changing the deck chairs :) ( oops another quote )

crisis
04-19-2004, 07:19 PM
All you are doing is replacing one set of errors with others.

You haven't REALLY taken on the complexity of the differnt ratings you will give the various posting percentiles.

As I'd said at the start KISS.

The system today is simple.
It has errors.
The Misho rating is more complex.
It has errors.
Creating a realistic model is VERY complex and guess what.
even IT will have errors ( tho admittedlay with a lot of effort only small )

Trying to make a better 'rating' system forgets that the fundamental INPUT is SUBJECTIVE. So objective sysmts control modesl won't work.

With the various feedbacks in the forum - written abuse, ignoring posts and reps points - then simple modelling will fail as you are in an open control system which will exhibit chaotic behaviour.

So applying KISS, Chapman and if it aint broke don't fix it then I was just pointing out that in fixing it you will only bring in another broke system.

Going back to first principles in TQC...
- What are all the things identifiable and measurable with problems in forums ?
- - Doing Pareto analysis, which one comes out top ?
- - - Is it significantly ahead of the others ?
- - - - If yes, would any fix decrease it by an order of magnitude ?
THEN - and only then - think about applying that fix :)

You're idea is interesting and a nice intellectual solution.
But engineering is about PRACTICAL solutions and if you've looked up the sources and situations of the various quotes I've used it may have opened your eyes to that.
There again, maybe not :D

The point I am making Misho, is that the best engineers know when NOT to tinker.
I was trying to point that out.
Mental masturbation is fun, but lets be practical wrt to making changes to the forum.
I'd rather Wouter addressed getting DivX/MPEG4 videos supported as attachments and embedded as giving more value than changing the deck chairs :) ( oops another quote )
Talkin of mental masturbation, that is one beautifully constructed argument. And I kinda like Mishos theory even if I cant be bothered working it out.

fpv_gtho
04-20-2004, 06:32 AM
Hey Misho, i think the ratio's a good idea, but for now i dont feel like most people think its needed all that much. sure it outlines the different effort people go to to earn respect off others, but even before the rep system you could tell that people like crisis, Egg Nog and Matra were top blokes whilst others like the motor twins (motorhead and motormaniac) BiTurbo, Guyt_x and r34 were people UCP didnt want to know about.

maybe with the right amount of effort more people would like it, but for now i think its just another confusion. keep working on it though

Misho
04-20-2004, 06:45 AM
Here is what I will do.

1) Withdraw from posting ever again at UCP. And from visitng the forums at all.

2) Join any of the other car forum sites and take a 3-4 months period to establish myself there, and then promote my theory over there.

Thank you all, I will really miss you. Now I will just try and finish off some of the threads that I was active in.

Matra et Alpine
04-20-2004, 08:31 AM
Here is what I will do.

1) Withdraw from posting ever again at UCP. And from visitng the forums at all.

2) Join any of the other car forum sites and take a 3-4 months period to establish myself there, and then promote my theory over there.

Thank you all, I will really miss you. Now I will just try and finish off some of the threads that I was active in.Say, Misho, when you're working in engineering and the project manager says to stop on the task and do somethign else as it's not going to work out are you going to change jobs ?

You'll be moving a lot.

Successful companies and project managers will spend at LEAST 25% of the time working on stuff they just junk.
I've worked for Hewlett-Packard and Agilent Technologies as engineer, project manager, product manager and business manager and you better get used to change and rejection. That's the way of engineering :) 2 years ago I spent 6 months 6 days a week in laba nd with customers on a product that *I* then wrote the conclusion to delay. There's no loss of pride in making the choice !

Now I'm not saying to junk the idea, but as has been pointed out maybe we've other things that work for us or we can improve that are better uses of your skills in helping UCP ?

I'd miss your other posts :)

crisis
04-20-2004, 05:01 PM
Here is what I will do.

1) Withdraw from posting ever again at UCP. And from visitng the forums at all.
Dont do that.

IBrake4Rainbows
04-20-2004, 05:12 PM
Don't leave. I think you'll have a hard time promoting it anyway, most forums i have been on say a reputation/karma system actually is killing their forum.

Don't get angry with us because we don't accept your theory is better than the system we've got in place, most of the people you talk to here anyway don't like Rep, i know i don't.

Thanks for your hard work on it, but in the end it is a bit complex when the system we have seems to do almost the exact same job.

We don't want you to leave, your a valuable member of our forums, but you must understand some people have opposing views, and constructive criticism never hurt anyone.

Misho
04-21-2004, 02:12 PM
Here is what I will do.

1) Withdraw from posting ever again at UCP. And from visitng the forums at all.

2) Join any of the other car forum sites and take a 3-4 months period to establish myself there, and then promote my theory over there.

Thank you all, I will really miss you. Now I will just try and finish off some of the threads that I was active in.



Jesus Christ !!!!! :eek:

I forget to add a small sarcastic face at the end of the post and you guys actually beleive this ?? Me ? Leaving UCP ? u cant be serious ! i would never give u that pleasure !!

guess i better make a public announcement. i think the "Official save Misho thread" is the best place to do it.