first impression of the new C5

[henk4]

found a pic of admittedly an artist impression of how the new Citroen C5 could be looking.

If it will look like this, Peugeot can bin its 407....

[555SUBARUWRT]

I think it looks great, a bit of a Ford Mondeo Can be found in there in places, Very Nice,

When will it go on sale then?

[henk4]

I think it looks great, a bit of a Ford Mondeo Can be found in there in places, Very Nice,

When will it go on sale then?

first to be shown at Frankfurt IAA, September 2007, on sale probably early 2008.

This drawing actually looks like it is re-designed Audi6...but certainly without the big mouth..

[jorismo]

Somehow I have the feeling it's a chop. Where did you find it (if I can ask so)?

But if it's going to look like this, I think it's OK. Not very great, but looks fine. I do think that the big air-intakes in at the front are a bit over the top. But that's just my personal taste.

[henk4]

http://www.automotorsport.se/nyhetsmall.asp?version=45245

for those who speak Swedish...

[jorismo]

I don't speak Swedish, but I think this is an artist impression. But I guess he could be very close based on the pictures of the test vehicle.

[henk4]

I don't speak Swedish, but I think this is an artist impression.

which I actually mentioned in post 1....

[jorismo]

which I actually mentioned in post 1....

ROFL, I completely missed that part of the sentence... So my first post doesn't make any sense either. Sorry for the confusion... (and stupidity)

[Ferrer]

I'm so looking forward to this car. Many impressions have been published, based on Lexus or Audis, but I hope Citroen can impress us, again.

[dydzi]

more impressions from press

[Cotterik]

thats fantastic. finally making something of their design potential.

[JRodrigues]

It can't be worst than the current one.. So I'm hoping for an improvement..

[henk4]

It can't be worst than the current one.. So I'm hoping for an improvement..
I said that on the Dutch C5 club forum too...got almost killed for that:D

[LandQuail]

The front wings hint strongly of those bolted to Mitsubishi's (rather disappointing to drive but great to look at) new Eclipse, while from the wings back, it looks a bit like what Buick is going for here in the states.

I guess, as Gandhi said, there's nothing new under the sun.

[henk4]

The front wings hint strongly of those bolted to Mitsubishi's (rather disappointing to drive but great to look at) new Eclipse, while from the wings back, it looks a bit like what Buick is going for here in the states.

I guess, as Gandhi said, there's nothing new under the sun.

A Citroen is unique underneath its body....design is just a necessary evil, and they sometimes fail to come up with a good one. This indeed looks like a great improvement over the current model..

[ruim20]

I like it a lot! Much better than the "old" one, the P407 is a mess and the Laguna as no chance agains't this, a C class or a 3 series for that matter, great looking car if it turns out of the factory like this, Congrats Citröen!

[drakkie]

A Citroen is unique underneath its body....design is just a necessary evil, and they sometimes fail to come up with a good one. This indeed looks like a great improvement over the current model..

The french magazine I saw the scans from is available in our library on school IIRC. Will have a look and if so, some copies might find their way into your letterbox soon. I come within a few hundreds of metres daily anyway ;)

And yes, it looks good ! Finally less of the conservative styling ! It did sell well,but wasnt too good looking :o

[NSXType-R]

I keep thinking that it's a Corvette. :D

Not exactly used to Citroen.

I think it looks good, although what am I to judge? I'll probably never have a chance to drive it.

[henk4]

I keep thinking that it's a Corvette. :D

Not exactly used to Citroen.

I think it looks good, although what am I to judge? I'll probably never have a chance to drive it.


It IS in the european car section, and there was already a Citroen C5 in the thirties...

[PerfAdv]

It looks really good. The front is distinctive. The rest of the car could be any brand really, Passat and S60 readily come to mind. And these are handsome cars as well.

[LandQuail]

A Citroen is unique underneath its body....design is just a necessary evil, and they sometimes fail to come up with a good one. This indeed looks like a great improvement over the current model..

I'm unfamiliar with Citroens, though I've always heard good things about the engineering and build quality, especially with recent models.

As far as design goes, I'm not a fan of the general design movement these days. Everything looks too "busy," and the excessive height and bulk pervading almost every manufacturer and category of cars seems a throwback to the 1950s.

[Ferrer]

I said that on the Dutch C5 club forum too...got almost killed for that:D
You've got to reckon that at least it's a bit bland... ;)

I like it a lot! Much better than the "old" one, the P407 is a mess and the Laguna as no chance agains't this, a C class or a 3 series for that matter, great looking car if it turns out of the factory like this, Congrats Citröen!
I've always though of Citroen as the most premium of the generalist brands.

[Piacki_117]

the Laguna as no chance agains't this

The new laguna will be launched in late 2007 too. And if it's as good looking as the Fluence concept, both Peugeot and Citroën have no chance against it...

[henk4]

The new laguna will be launched in late 2007 too. And if it's as good looking as the Fluence concept, both Peugeot and Citroën have no chance against it...

I read somewhere that Peugeot has postponed the facelift of the 407 after having seen the first pictures of the Laguna, allegedly they thought it was so ugly that it would not impress anybody, so they could easily continue with the current model...(which I think is hideous too)

http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm/spyphotoid/6060824.001/country/ecf/Renault%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20% 20%20%20%20/spy-photos-next-generation-renault-laguna

[Ferrer]

A picture of the actual prototype (found at Autopareri).
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_424/car_photo_212055_7.jpg

[Piacki_117]

I read somewhere that Peugeot has postponed the facelift of the 407 after having seen the first pictures of the Laguna, allegedly they thought it was so ugly that it would not impress anybody, so they could easily continue with the current model...(which I think is hideous too)

http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm/spyphotoid/6060824.001/country/ecf/Renault%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20% 20%20%20%20/spy-photos-next-generation-renault-laguna


I really doubt it will look like that... Oh and do you think the 407 is ugly? I find it pretty good looking, it's in my opinion a very nice sedan, especially in its SW version.

[henk4]

I really doubt it will look like that... Oh and do you think the 407 is ugly? I find it pretty good looking, it's in my opinion a very nice sedan, especially in its SW version.

too big a mouth....

[NSXType-R]

It IS in the european car section, and there was already a Citroen C5 in the thirties...

I don't get any access to Citroens. ;)

[henk4]

I don't get any access to Citroens. ;)

the DS and SM were available in the USA..

[nota]

A picture of the actual prototype (found at Autopareri).
Imo its a pity that this proto doesn't more closely resemble this thread's initial 'artists impression' of C5, albeit conceded as not being 'productionised'

In comparision this proto looks quite 'watered down' like a neutered cliche. Your pic of the actual proto rates as miles more appealing imo than the Laguna reveal, but equally illustrates enthusiast frustration towards manufacturer's lack of forward projection in bringing avant guarde design straight to market. Is it so hard to recognise a winner?

[Ferrer]

too big a mouth....
That's the problem of all recen Peugeots. Apparently the safety pedestrian regulations are to blame, or so I read, but IIRC the Citroen C6 is the car with the best Euroncap pedestrian safety rating and it looks very good indeed.

[henk4]

That's the problem of all recen Peugeots. Apparently the safety pedestrian regulations are to blame, or so I read, but IIRC the Citroen C6 is the car with the best Euroncap pedestrian safety rating and it looks very good indeed.

Yes the C6 got the best pedestrian marks.
I suppose the new C5 will be similarly equipped as the C6. It does not need to have an open mouth.

[Waugh-terfall]

I would seriously consider one, but I love the Peugeot 407 SW... and I believe my grandfather that lives in France shall soon have a a new 407 saloon to replace the piece of shit namely a 1993 Mercedes 190D 2.5TurboDiesel Auto saloon re-registered with French plates and the lights changed over (it was from England, took with him when they moved) Either the Pug or a VW Passat 2.0TDI or Skoda Octavia 2.0TDI (gramgrams choice) Downside is, the Merc could well end up as my first car grandad plans...

I think I may make him reconsider the Veepugoda if the next C5 looks like that, as with the new C4/C4 Picasso, Citroen are onto a sure winner!

[Gtek-i]

man that's really nice

[Ferrer]

I think I may make him reconsider the Veepugoda if the next C5 looks like that, as with the new C4/C4 Picasso, Citroen are onto a sure winner!
All we need now is to hope that they fit the 1.6-litre turbocharged direct fuel injected engine in it. I think Citroen (and Peugeot) need to develop new petrol engines (especially those above 1600cc) or make the current ones better.

[Vindesh17]

I seriously think that if that car was sold here it would sell rather well.

[Ferrer]

Citroen is also introducing this, their rival for the Modus, called the C3 Streetlounge, which will be released before the next generation regular C3. By the way yesterday I saw a C3 VTR and it looked very good indeed.

[Waugh-terfall]

Looks a little Nissan Note-ish. I don't like it really. What I'd really like to see is an RS4 rival from Citroen. Maybe a new C5XTR or something with something like a 4.?litre V8 under the hood. Yumm.

[ruim20]

The new laguna will be launched in late 2007 too. And if it's as good looking as the Fluence concept, both Peugeot and Citroën have no chance against it...

Well as everything in life, that's a matter of taste :p i really like the C5, robust look and great lines, the Renault just looks a bit messy.

[Waugh-terfall]

I for one am a great fan of Renault's designs of recent years, as Dad and I were discussing in the car earlier. I really like the current Laguna GT Estate like my P.E teachers. Lovly looker, the Megane is rather spiffing too especially in R26 F1 Team guise as with the new Clio, just 197 guise. and standard. The Scenics are alright. and I like the luxury one, name escapes me. The Espace is beautiful and the Avantime is sublime. I reckon they should re-launch it, I think it was too ahead of it's time and scared people a little, now I think it'd do rather well in the market place.

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

the Avantime is sublime. I reckon they should re-launch it, I think it was too ahead of it's time and scared people a little, now I think it'd do rather well in the market place.
I doubt that. As beautiful as the Avantime is, it'll never be a big seller. Big French cars never are. See the Peugeot 607/605, the Citroën C6 and XM, and the Renault Safrane and Vel Satis. No one is interested.

Given the choice between £30,000 to sink into an Avantime or a BMW 5-Series, I'd take the 5-Series. Then sell it and buy a used RS6.

[Waugh-terfall]

I doubt that. As beautiful as the Avantime is, it'll never be a big seller. Big French cars never are. See the Peugeot 607/605, the Citroën C6 and XM, and the Renault Safrane and Vel Satis. No one is interested.

Given the choice between £30,000 to sink into an Avantime or a BMW 5-Series, I'd take the 5-Series. Then sell it and buy a used RS6.

True. True. Well, the XM was big with my Dad's old company. They had 3 XM Estates and a Xantia Estate. VEL SATIS!!! Thats the one! I kept wanting to call it the Homeostasis... See, I'd take the £30k and buy an Avantime and keep it, despite the very very very tempting prospect of an awe inspiring RS6 of which I'd love.

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

True. True. Well, the XM was big with my Dad's old company. They had 3 XM Estates and a Xantia Estate. VEL SATIS!!! Thats the one! I kept wanting to call it the Homeostasis... See, I'd take the £30k and buy an Avantime and keep it, despite the very very very tempting prospect of an awe inspiring RS6 of which I'd love.
That's one company, though!

XMs were awesome cars, but the lack of badge and hideous unreliability sealed their fate. I've only ever seen 2 Vel Satis' hanging around. Both were in Windsor as taxis. Apparently, the Avantime aside, it was one of the cars that sold in the smallest numbers here.

RS6 > everything ;)

[Waugh-terfall]

That's one company, though!

XMs were awesome cars, but the lack of badge and hideous unreliability sealed their fate. I've only ever seen 2 Vel Satis' hanging around. Both were in Windsor as taxis. Apparently, the Avantime aside, it was one of the cars that sold in the smallest numbers here.

RS6 > everything ;)

I'm doing my English h/w/k men's car advert on the RS6 :D

XM's were nice, huuge. Ours was like a swimming pool in the back after rain and 'my' door handle (rear left) on the inside kept falling off. the Electrics sometimes got a little dodgey sometimes too I believe. I loved the suspension though and the screens behind the steering wheel displaying scrolling info on the car.

I've seen plenty of Vel Satis' especially in France... a few Avantimes, but the majority in France also...

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

I'm doing my English h/w/k men's car advert on the RS6 :D

XM's were nice, huuge. Ours was like a swimming pool in the back after rain and 'my' door handle (rear left) on the inside kept falling off. the Electrics sometimes got a little dodgey sometimes too I believe. I loved the suspension though and the screens behind the steering wheel displaying scrolling info on the car.

I've seen plenty of Vel Satis' especially in France... a few Avantimes, but the majority in France also...
Loser ;)

They were comfy, but shite, as already mentioned :p

The French always buy their own cars; they're very patriotic. When we went to France in 2002, no one seemed to know what our Civic was! :D

[Volvoman]

When I was visiting Europe last year, I saw 1 Avantime and 2 Vel Satis'. Never sold here so didn't recognise them until I saw them close-up. I liked the shape of the Avantime. I also really like this C5. IMO, the old one reminded me of a Whale shark with its big gaping mouth. They aren't a huge seller here though and so a bit different from the norm. Thats the only reason I would buy one over a MB or BMW. Plus also damn expensive.

[Lagonda]

That's one company, though!

XMs were awesome cars, but the lack of badge and hideous unreliability sealed their fate. I've only ever seen 2 Vel Satis' hanging around. Both were in Windsor as taxis. Apparently, the Avantime aside, it was one of the cars that sold in the smallest numbers here.

RS6 > everything ;)
My dad used to drive a Vel Satis before he got his current S-class. It rocked, it was sooo comfortable and unique.

We also had a XM V6 for a few months once. We bought it when it just came out, which was a huuuuge mistake. Constant electrical issues made us sell it.
Never buy a first generation Citroën, always wait a few months or ideally until the first face lift so they can work out the kinks.

[Ferrer]

Looks a little Nissan Note-ish. I don't like it really. What I'd really like to see is an RS4 rival from Citroen. Maybe a new C5XTR or something with something like a 4.?litre V8 under the hood. Yumm.
You're completely missing the point of a Citroen.

[Waugh-terfall]

My dad used to drive a Vel Satis before he got his current S-class. It rocked, it was sooo comfortable and unique.

We also had a XM V6 for a few months once. We bought it when it just came out, which was a huuuuge mistake. Constant electrical issues made us sell it.
Never buy a first generation Citroën, always wait a few months or ideally until the first face lift so they can work out the kinks.

Yeah, I went in a diesel VelSatis, they are really, really nice.

We got our XM Estate 2.0 in 1993 and swapped it in 1995 for a new Discovery S 2.5 TDI 1B. Which also was great, like the Citroen it leaked, though the Citroen leaked in the boot whereas the LandRover was the front right indicator.. After 2 years the dashboard under the windscreen started to curl up which seemed common among Discovery's. The button for the CD player on the radio fell off the week before it went in late 1999 we then had a 1999 Citroen Xantia Estate belonging to my Dad's old company for a week before the old A6 came down from London.

[Waugh-terfall]

Loser ;)

They were comfy, but shite, as already mentioned :p

When we went to France in 2002, no one seemed to know what our Civic was! :D

GramGram's next door neighbor out there drives a 2002 Civic i-Vetec 3dr


The French always buy their own cars; they're very patriotic.

Take Piacki pour example.

[Ferrer]

From Autopareri.
]http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/62EB3A32F8FC1157C12572FA0059617F/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/4D5051E66FF94B18C12572FA005967EF/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/0CF0F2345759AE08C12572FA005973E1/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/6C756628347DACC1C12572FA00597D1D/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/5858EB4683AF6CCDC12572FA0059832A/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/D5A258E044085E56C12572FA00598898/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/B007C94AC087C785C12572FA00598E01/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg
http://www.autojournal.fr/auto/aj/galerie.nsf/0/A42C2B574C39307AC12572FA00599B2B/$file/woo3_maxi.jpg

[Waugh-terfall]

Now that! Is NICE.

[The_Canuck]

Kinda ugly actually...

[Cotterik]

if it looks like this then they'll hit the jackpot. That design really is a great product of citroens recent design movement. The current C5 has always lacked the character of other cars in its class. Certainly the character of a citroen.

[henk4]

[QUOTE=Cotterik;719325The current C5 has always lacked the character of other cars in its class. Certainly the character of a citroen.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you as far as the outside is concerned. Inside it is the real thing, and there it is where I spend my time when driving....

[Ferrer]

I agree with you as far as the outside is concerned. Inside it is the real thing, and there it is where I spend my time when driving....
But if they can fix the outside, which it seems they have (except for the tailamps, of which I'm not sure) they certainly have winner. Much better than the Peugeot cousin. The exterior of the current C5 is enough to put me off and not caring to buy one if I was in the market for such a car.

[Clivey]

I hope Citroen don't "do a Peugeot" in trying to compete for sheer ugliness (i.e. "who can smack the biggest gob on the front of their cars?") as well as trying to balance as much of the car as possible in front of the front wheels.

I really dislike modern designs whereby the front wheels are so far back the top of the wheelarch is directly under the scuttle panel for the front windscreen.

Massive front overhangs suck for looks and agility not to mention that they're actually dangerous (to emerge from a junction in a Pug 407, you end-up with half the car over the line and into the middle of the road before you can see what's coming).

I'd rather have the ability to avoid accidents in the first place than an extra foot of crash protection crap tacked onto the front of the car (the joke of it is that this "crash protection" is designed to shine in Euro NCAP tests but as far as real-world performance goes, we haven't a clue). I'd rather have a lighter and smaller overall car with better handling than something that's going to get me into trouble but cushion the blow.

The latest generation of cars are simply massive bubbles with the driver isolated from the environment, cocooned in a false sense of security in the middle of the structure. These overly long front ends ultimately mean less control of the car and dire visibility due to extra pillars holding-up the front windscreen and the driver not sitting "forward" enough in the car. Look at the Peugeot 307 for an example. If you divide the car up, the driver is actually sat more-or-less half way down the cars' length. An example of how this affects control is how many people when fronting into a parking space in a new Pug end up with the front bumper hitting or overhanging the kerb in front of them.

I work at a supermarket at the weekends and it's amusing to see the parking behaviours of people driving the latest generation of cars compared with the last generation. Also, I've noticed the amount of scrapes on the front corners of these same new cars where the driver can't tell where the front actually ends, causing them to scrape things as they turn into tight spaces. Similar is happening to the rear of cars because of ever smaller rear windows. My dad notices that because he's a driving instructor - many new cars he'd refuse to teach in because you simply haven't got an adequate field of vision.

Just some food for thought.

[henk4]

the long overhangs are not meant to protect the inhabitants of the car, but rather the pedestrians.....so whether you feel "unsafe" in the car is of less relevance than the safety of the totally unprotected individual that crosses the street...

[Clivey]

the long overhangs are not meant to protect the inhabitants of the car, but rather the pedestrians.....so whether you feel "unsafe" in the car is of less relevance than the safety of the totally unprotected individual that crosses the street...

The last generation Civic, for example, was very good to pedestrians, it had then the best score of any car but doesn't have these grotesque overhangs...they're simply not necessary.

[Ferrer]

The last generation Civic, for example, was very good to pedestrians, it had then the best score of any car but doesn't have these grotesque overhangs...they're simply not necessary.
Wasn't the C6 the best car for pedestrians?

Anyway I have to agree that this supersize trend all car manufacturers are following is bad. And not only front overhangs, but in all dimensions, lenght, width and height.

[nota]

I'm obviously in the minority but to my eyes the existing C5, although no beauty queen, represented a welcome return to characterful and distinctive Citroenesque oddball. Xantias were neat enough stylewise in a mainstream way but who wants their Citroen to look like a Daiwoo?

[Clivey]

Wasn't the C6 the best car for pedestrians?

Anyway I have to agree that this supersize trend all car manufacturers are following is bad. And not only front overhangs, but in all dimensions, lenght, width and height.

http://www.euroncap.com/large_family_car.aspx

Here is the Euro NCAP test results page for "large family" (is that C or D segment?) cars

Whilst yes, the 407 gets a 2* rating for pedestrian protection, so do the Honda Accord, VW Passat, Volvo S40, Hyundai Sonata, Lexus IS and Skoda Octavia. None of which have front overhangs of grotesque proportions. Ridiculous front overhangs are simply not necessary for the protection of anyone.

[Ferrer]

I'm obviously in the minority but to my eyes the existing C5, although no beauty queen, represented a welcome return to characterful and distinctive Citroenesque oddball. Xantias were neat enough stylewise in a mainstream way but who wants their Citroen to look like a Daiwoo?
I actually think the C5 was very un-Citroen. Not particularly ugly, but very bland and boring indeed. Especially next to cars like the DS, the SM or the CX.

http://www.euroncap.com/large_family_car.aspx

Here is the Euro NCAP test results page for "large family" (is that C or D segment?) cars

Whilst yes, the 407 gets a 2* rating for pedestrian protection, so do the Honda Accord, VW Passat, Volvo S40, Hyundai Sonata, Lexus IS and Skoda Octavia. None of which have front overhangs of grotesque proportions. Ridiculous front overhangs are simply not necessary for the protection of anyone.
The C6 is an E-segment car, and actually gets a 4 star safety rating for pedestrians. The Honda Legend is next with 3 stars.

http://www.euroncap.com/executive.aspx

[Clivey]

The C6 is an E-segment car, and actually gets a 4 star safety rating for pedestrians. The Honda Legend is next with 3 stars.


The C6 is the first car to be awarded the maximum four stars for pedestrian protection. When the car senses that it is striking a pedestrian, a pop-up bonnet is activated, giving greater clearance between the bonnet surface and the rigid components of the engine.

This suggests that the level of pedestrian protection is due to the pop-up bonnet mechanism rather than having a large nose. The story would be the same on cars with short front overhangs and the same mechanism.

Superminis like the Hyundai Getz, KIA Picanto and VW Fox manage the same result, and guess what? No stupidly large overhgangs.

Furthermore, looking at the supermini page revals that despite the Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107 using the same underpinnings, the 107 scored less on the pedestrian protection test (maybe someone got stuck in it's big mouth! :D) - all that horrible big-gobbery isn't necessary to cushion the blow.

[Matra et Alpine]

Ridiculous front overhangs are simply not necessary for the protection of anyone.
Sadly to get a 5 it does.
Striking pedestrians in the right place to not break legs and to induce roll onto the vehicle and then NOT hit the windscreen lays down the core shape :(
Deformable bonnets are out as the engine and suspension hard points are high. So to score high they are having to deploy reactive bonnets which leap up a few inches BEFORE the pedestrian hits and then deform/relax taking advantage of the extra gap generated to the hard points.

[Matra et Alpine]

This suggests that the level of pedestrian protection is due to the pop-up bonnet mechanism rather than having a large nose. The story would be the same on cars with short front overhangs and the same mechanism
Not that simple, the bonnet mechanism has to have sensed the impact and reacted BEFORE the pedestrian hits the bonnet area. So if it's too short it gets impossibel to do :(

Taking average adult heights you need to extend the nose to ensure it's not the front screen they hit

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Citroen's and Peugeot's are the most considerate cars on the road if you think about it - they are the few who care about other people running into them.

Other manufacturers are keen to protect the occupants (and rightly so) but have a devil-may-care attitude to pedestrian safety.

However other manufacturers also create nice looking cars :(

I'm going to go out on a limb and say i do not like the front of the new C5. the back is judgement reserved. it's certainly a welcome return to modern-style for Citroen. it's bang up to date.

[Ferrer]

Don't know if anyone has noticed the concave rear window as per the C6?

Nice touch.

[henk4]

Don't know if anyone has noticed the concave rear window as per the C6?

Nice touch.

yes, two reporters for Dutch TV at the launch in Geneva suggested to each other that Citroen had put in the window the wrong side up. And when I asked them about the CX, they had never seen it there as well. One of the reporters was Tom Coronel, now driving in the WTTC....

[Clivey]

I'm also going to go out on a limb and suggest that I could have designed the front end better, based on the pictures from Autopareri.

Despite Peugeot beating all of its cars with the ugly stick, I've been impressed recently with Citroen...I like the C4, C4 Picasso and C6 - they're stylish and very individual. These C5 pictures however just make it look bloated like the 407 and very bland from the front.


Inside it is the real thing

Meaning all the trim's coming apart, the electrics have failed and there's no silver finish left on the plastic? :D

Only joking; I was actually quite impressed with C5 facelift when I saw one up-close. I helped a guy change a tyre on it and the adjustable suspension sure helped there. Absolutely loaded with tech.

[Ferrer]

A new picture from Autopareri too.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1368/nouvellecitroenc51ig6.jpg

[Ferrer]

More pics from Autopareri.
http://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1k.jpghttp://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1a.jpghttp://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1d.jpg
http://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1f.jpg

http://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1e.jpghttp://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1l.jpghttp://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1i.jpg
http://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1c.jpg
Apparently the hydroneumatic suspension will now be an option... :(

[Ferrer]

And the last bunch of pictures.

http://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1h.jpghttp://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1b.jpg
http://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1j.jpghttp://62.210.96.114/Autoplus/automobile/source/images/Citroen-C5/Citroen-C5-nouvelle-1g.jpg

[Kitdy]

Wanna know what I think Ferrer? Guess...

[Ferrer]

Wanna know what I think Ferrer? Guess...
You hate it? :p

[jediali]

Nooo, Kitdy just wants to find out what you think Ferrer so he can copy you and be in the ferrer-fan-club.

[Clivey]

Sadly to get a 5 it does.
Striking pedestrians in the right place to not break legs and to induce roll onto the vehicle and then NOT hit the windscreen lays down the core shape
Deformable bonnets are out as the engine and suspension hard points are high. So to score high they are having to deploy reactive bonnets which leap up a few inches BEFORE the pedestrian hits and then deform/relax taking advantage of the extra gap generated to the hard points.

Not that simple, the bonnet mechanism has to have sensed the impact and reacted BEFORE the pedestrian hits the bonnet area. So if it's too short it gets impossibel to do :(

Taking average adult heights you need to extend the nose to ensure it's not the front screen they hit

No, no, no. I am absolutely SURE that the massive front overhang is not necessary - and here's why:

If you compare the cars with the stupid overhangs to the cars that don't (as an example I'm going to use the Peugeot 407 Coupe and VW Passat), all that's really changed is the position of the front wheels - the bonnet size hasn't changed. You'll see what I mean when you look at the profile shots below.

Peugeot 407 Coupe
http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/dennis/20060504/13/3620551377-peugeot-407-coupe-2-2-se.jpg

Volkswagen Passat
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/7/y/U/jf_07passat36_profile.jpg

Therefore there should be no difference between the space / time between sensors and bonnet mechanisms, as the space designers have to work with isn't any different. So what I'm saying is that a reactive bonnet engineered into the Passat's design should be just as effective as one engineered into the 407's design.

And finally, the reason I chose these particular cars? Despite the Passat's normal overhang and well proportioned, conventional shape, it still manages the same pedestrian impact score as the 407 (4 stars, best in class)...along with the Skoda Octavia (no stupid overhangs) and Volvo S40 (again, no stupid overhangs).

[Ferrer]

Nooo, Kitdy just wants to find out what you think Ferrer so he can copy you and be in the ferrer-fan-club.
Actually he deslikes all cars I like, so it's unlikely... :p

[Cyco]

Also depends on drivetrain layout. If its FWD the easiest way to get ~60% weight on the front axle is to push the front wheels to the back of the engine.

[Ferrer]

Also depends on drivetrain layout. If its FWD the easiest way to get ~60% weight on the front axle is to push the front wheels to the back of the engine.
But isn't that a bad idea? :confused:

[Kitdy]

You hate it? :p

I despise it. I despise every Citroen I have ever seen. :)


Nooo, Kitdy just wants to find out what you think Ferrer so he can copy you and be in the ferrer-fan-club.

No, no. In another thread I asked Ferrer if I should give my opinion and wanted and gave a negative comment and I wanted to copy that here for comedic affect.

[Clivey]

Also depends on drivetrain layout. If its FWD the easiest way to get ~60% weight on the front axle is to push the front wheels to the back of the engine.

The problem with FWD cars is getting enough weight rearwards to make them handle!

Thank-you for raising another good point though - if you look again at what you just said in another way, moving the front wheels backwards is a recipe for understeer (more weight in the nose pushing the car wide when turning), and therefore the loss of any sporting pretensions the car may have. Case in point: Renault Vel Satis - understeers MORE than a Toyota Landcruiser Amazon, probably because there's so much weight in the front of the damn thing! - Compare that to a luxury car competitor, say a 5-series or E-Class...what handles better?

I don't know about you but I hate understeer. If you push my car hard, it's very neutral - all four tyres lose grip progressively at the same time, and the nose is very pointy into corners. I like that because it's easy to drive well and it's quicker and safer than having to deal with a car that's understeering because there's too much weight in the nose. Ideally I'd want a 50:50 weight distribution or even more weight in the rear than the front.

[jediali]

Nooo, Kitdy just wants to find out what you think Ferrer so he can copy you and be in the ferrer-fan-club.
ok bad post!

on topic: in my opinion the C5's biggest problem is image. It will have to be keenly priced or use some sheek mustered by the C6 to make an impact in my thinking. As for styling im more for than against, mainly because its continuing to establish the citroen range styling, and the germans continue to compete on contreversalness to retain a competitive edge.

[jediali]

I don't know about you but I hate understeer. If you push my car hard, it's very neutral - all four tyres lose grip progressively at the same time, and the nose is very pointy into corners. I like that because it's easy to drive well and it's quicker and safer than having to deal with a car that's understeering because there's too much weight in the nose. Ideally I'd want a 50:50 weight distribution or even more weight in the rear than the front.

I have driven a Corsa briefly and i think understeer would be more evident.in my experience understeer (my car in the wet) has been a safety factor for me. With suspension geometry you can make a front heavy car under/neutr.oversteer or whatever. But to make a car that grips well, allows comfort and communicates well you wouldnt be able to cheat as much using clever suspension, instaed your better of by working on a car that has good weight distrbution that hasnt already eaten into its supension requirements list (if that makes sense:rolleyes: ). This theory of mine is supported by the audis hard ride, bmw's range of ability, renult magan cup thingy, peugot 407 and the bmw mini

[Matra et Alpine]

Clivey, take your examples and picture average pedestrians on frontal hits and see where heads end up and the point I was making will be more obvious.

Also, we'd need to look at where the hard-points were on each car under the bonnet/wings as they also have to be avoided by the designer.

Euro-NCAP site failing to load properly :( So can't pull the details. The "score" is made up of a number of factors so you often have to drill down whan analysing alternative solutions.

[Clivey]

I have driven a Corsa briefly and i think understeer would be more evident.in my experience understeer (my car in the wet) has been a safety factor for me. With suspension geometry you can make a front heavy car under/neutr.oversteer or whatever.

What sort of Corsa have you driven? Bear in mind that mine is an SXi and therefore has lowered and uprated suspension as well as a quicker steering rack when compared to the average Corsa. In fact, it drives completely differently to my Uncle's 1.2 Comfort or my dad's old 1.0 Life.

What you are saying about suspension setup simply backs-up what I'm saying in that I don't want excess weight over the nose of the car as it compromises handling before you even get to play about with the rest of the design.

[Clivey]

Clivey, take your examples and picture average pedestrians on frontal hits and see where heads end up and the point I was making will be more obvious.

In both cases, without looking at the tapes I'd say that the ped's head would land on or just before the trailing edge of the bonnet. The Passat recieved the same score as the 407, so my point is that the 407's overhand isn't necessary for a safe car.


Also, we'd need to look at where the hard-points were on each car under the bonnet/wings as they also have to be avoided by the designer.

Euro-NCAP site failing to load properly :( So can't pull the details. The "score" is made up of a number of factors so you often have to drill down whan analysing alternative solutions.

Yeah, it's not been working for a couple of hours. I'm not sure if the detailed info you talk about is actually available, but overall I'd be happy with the fact that the folks at Euro NCAP rate the two cars as as good as each other.

I'm currently considering a Passat as my next car, along with the Honda Accord and Vauxhall Vectra. Opinions anyone?

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah, it's not been working for a couple of hours. I'm not sure if the detailed info you talk about is actually available, but overall I'd be happy with the fact that the folks at Euro NCAP rate the two cars as as good as each other.
Correct and yet they are both dynamicall different vehicles.
Check out the driver position.
So the Pug extends the nose to put all the hard bits in the same relative location for the pedestrian. But with different chassis objectives the front wheels are set further back relative to the front.

[henk4]

I despise it. I despise every Citroen I have ever seen. :)




I guess you never saw a single one at all...

[Ferrer]

I despise it. I despise every Citroen I have ever seen. :)
(Of the current range) The C6 is just stunning. Nothing in the segment comes even close, except perhaps for the Mercedes-Benz CLS.

What sort of Corsa have you driven? Bear in mind that mine is an SXi and therefore has lowered and uprated suspension as well as a quicker steering rack when compared to the average Corsa. In fact, it drives completely differently to my Uncle's 1.2 Comfort or my dad's old 1.0 Life.

What you are saying about suspension setup simply backs-up what I'm saying in that I don't want excess weight over the nose of the car as it compromises handling before you even get to play about with the rest of the design.
If you push front wheel drive cars hard they will end up understering, no matter how well setup they are. Having said, if you know it and bear it in mind when driving well set up FWD cars can be a riot in the right roads.

I personally prefer a well set up FWD than a 4WD car.

[Cyco]

But isn't that a bad idea? :confused:


The problem with FWD cars is getting enough weight rearwards to make them handle!

Thank-you for raising another good point though - if you look again at what you just said in another way, moving the front wheels backwards is a recipe for understeer (more weight in the nose pushing the car wide when turning), and therefore the loss of any sporting pretensions the car may have. Case in point: Renault Vel Satis - understeers MORE than a Toyota Landcruiser Amazon, probably because there's so much weight in the front of the damn thing! - Compare that to a luxury car competitor, say a 5-series or E-Class...what handles better?

I don't know about you but I hate understeer. If you push my car hard, it's very neutral - all four tyres lose grip progressively at the same time, and the nose is very pointy into corners. I like that because it's easy to drive well and it's quicker and safer than having to deal with a car that's understeering because there's too much weight in the nose. Ideally I'd want a 50:50 weight distribution or even more weight in the rear than the front.

You obviously know more about car engineering than all the car engineers that try and set up good handling cars for many conditions.

This is due to that when you accelerate the front wheels unload and so can easily drop under 50% weight. Add a few fat passengers in the rear and some stuff in the boot and under acceleration balance can shift to under 30% load. If the static balance is already further back initially then the front wheels will be even lighter - to the point that uphill starts in slippery conditions get very tricky.

You may like a car that is very pointy, but the vast majority of the car buying public do not. For them progressive understeer is safe, and more than 50% weight on the rear wheels on a FWD car is just crazy for anyone

[Ferrer]

You obviously know more about car engineering than all the car engineers that try and set up good handling cars for many conditions.
I was just asking. I'm sorry if that upset you.

[Cyco]

That comment was not aimed at you, but someone who thinks a set of drive wheels with less than 50% of the static weight and even less under acceleration is the design for a good handling, fast car....

[Ferrer]

That comment was not aimed at you, but someone who thinks a set of drive wheels with less than 50% of the static weight and even less under acceleration is the design for a good handling, fast car....
Well you quoted me...

I admit my knowledge of engineering is very limited indeed, but I always thought a nose heavy was a bad idea. Isn't it?

[Cyco]

Did you read the rest of the reason why they make FWD cars front heavy?

[Ferrer]

Did you read the rest of the reason why they make FWD cars front heavy?
Yes but, then why are Audis criticised for being nose heavy, when it is theoretically perfect?

[Cyco]

Because that is the 4WD, not FWD that are normally getting criticised for that - a situation where you do want the weight 50/50 or so - depending on power split.

[Ferrer]

Because that is the 4WD, not FWD that are normally getting criticised for that - a situation where you do want the weight 50/50 or so - depending on power split.
I remember reading journalists complaining about nose heavy front wheel drive cars, for example the 147 GTA.

[jediali]

Well you quoted me...

I admit my knowledge of engineering is very limited indeed, but I always thought a nose heavy was a bad idea. Isn't it?

fine for low speed grip however but a combination of front heavy and front wheel drive causes tread defromation. Thus tyre size plays a large part.

[Clivey]

You obviously know more about car engineering than all the car engineers that try and set up good handling cars for many conditions.

This is due to that when you accelerate the front wheels unload and so can easily drop under 50% weight. Add a few fat passengers in the rear and some stuff in the boot and under acceleration balance can shift to under 30% load. If the static balance is already further back initially then the front wheels will be even lighter - to the point that uphill starts in slippery conditions get very tricky.

You may like a car that is very pointy, but the vast majority of the car buying public do not. For them progressive understeer is safe, and more than 50% weight on the rear wheels on a FWD car is just crazy for anyone

Ah, yes. I didn't make that very clear. I should have also mentioned that ideally I'd like a RWD or AWD car. It was for those that I was thinking that anything over 50% was too much. For a FWD, 60% seems to do the trick very nicely (the Mini manages to handle very, very well with this figure) but I still wouldn't like much more than that over the front wheels. Hence the comment against moving the front wheels back and having a huge nose (meaning that we're gonna end up with cars with well over 60% of the weight in the front, with much more than normal in front of the front wheels).

However, you have to remember that other factors, such as the stiffness of the suspension also affect the weight transfer and therefore the weight over the drive wheels under acceleration, once again due to a stiff setup, the Mini seems to do very well here. And as Jediali mentioned, the effect on the tyres is also key.

At the moment I am in the market for a D-segment car. I need something newish (not more than 2 years' old) with a diesel engine (so that I can afford to run it I need above 40mpg) and with enough space to carry 4/5 people plus luggage, but also want something good to drive and resistant to understeer. Unfortunately, having a budget of £12-13k and wanting something fairly new prevents a RWD car such as a 3-series but I refuse to buy something that has one of those ridiculous Pinnocchio noses.

So far, I'm looking at the Honda Accord 2.2 iCDTi (Sport or Executive), VW Passat S 1.9TDi and Vauxhall Vectra SRi 1.9CDTi 150PS *. All handle well and are likely to drive better than a car with a ridiculous amount of noseweight.

*If anyone else has any suggestions taking in to account my requirements above, post them up!

[Clivey]

I remember reading journalists complaining about nose heavy front wheel drive cars, for example the 147 GTA.

Yes, that was one of two major criticisms of the car, along with the "250BHP throught he front wheels" issue. Evo even commented that the 2.5-litre blown 5 in the Focus ST made the car nose heavy, that's why I'd go for one of the four-cylinders in that class (RenaultSport Megane or Astra VXR), although I can't help but love the Alfa, especially in pearlescent white.

When I took the Corsa to have 2 new Continentals a couple of weeks ago, there was a 147 GTA having work done to the brakes. I had a look under the bonnet and was just in awe of Alfa's beautiful V6. I love the styling of the GTA enough to want one but I am sure the driving experience wouldn't match the looks.

Which leads me to another thought I've been having: Alfa is making progress but is really stuck in a rut. It simply shouldn't be the case that BMWs et al are pissing all over them dynamically but then you have to remember that 8C aside, Alfa don't even currently make a RWD car, let alone a sub-30k saloon! I love the 159, but every road test I've read is pointing to the 159 not holding a candle to the 3-series dynamically. I'd personally like to see a Q-tronic with more of a RWD bias to try and claw something back. Unfortunately the rest of the chassis probably isn't set-up to cope with that too well.

Maybe next time, Alfa (again).:(

[Ferrer]

What about:

-Alfa Romeo 156 1.9 JTD
-Volvo V50 2.0D
-Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi
-Renault Laguna 1.9 dCi

?

[Ferrer]

Yes, that was one of two major criticisms of the car, along with the "250BHP throught he front wheels" issue. Evo even commented that the 2.5-litre blown 5 in the Focus ST made the car nose heavy, that's why I'd go for one of the four-cylinders in that class (RenaultSport Megane or Astra VXR), although I can't help but love the Alfa, especially in pearlescent white.

When I took the Corsa to have 2 new Continentals a couple of weeks ago, there was a 147 GTA having work done to the brakes. I had a look under the bonnet and was just in awe of Alfa's beautiful V6. I love the styling of the GTA enough to want one but I am sure the driving experience wouldn't match the looks.

Which leads me to another thought I've been having: Alfa is making progress but is really stuck in a rut. It simply shouldn't be the case that BMWs et al are pissing all over them dynamically but then you have to remember that 8C aside, Alfa don't even currently make a RWD car, let alone a sub-30k saloon! I love the 159, but every road test I've read is pointing to the 159 not holding a candle to the 3-series dynamically. I'd personally like to see a Q-tronic with more of a RWD bias to try and claw something back. Unfortunately the rest of the chassis probably isn't set-up to cope with that too well.

Maybe next time, Alfa (again).:(
Well the most of the attributes think lead to think that as far as handling and performance are concerned the Alfa Romeo 147 GTA is rubbish, and it's probably right. However that wouldn't put me off. Yes it's not perfect, but when you have that styling, that interior and above all that engine everything else becomes a bit irrelevant. I certainly would buy one and all the less than perfect characteristics wouldn't put me off.

Regarding the 159/Brera/Spider, you have to bear in mind that it was a compromised from the start. It was made during the dark days at Fiat, when the group was at the verge of bankruptcy, and at when the tie-up with GM was still strong. So while the Premium platform (the one that underpins the 159, Brera and Spider) was at first engineered from a front engined rear wheel drive layout, Saab (which was also involved in the project) asked for a front engined front wheel drive layout and everything changed. As time went on Saab (and GM) pulled out because of the cost and Fiat was left with a platform which they had invested a lot of money on. At the same time if Alfa Romeo was to compete with the established german premium brands they had to up the quality.

So in the end Fiat decided that the Premium platform would underpin the next generation of mid size Alfa Romeos. As a result of all of the above the cars would still be front wheel drive, with a four wheel drive option, (altough theoretically the Premium is longitudinal engine capable) and that it would be overweight because Fiat had focused of quality and perceived quality and couldn't afford weight saving measures then. Despite that the Premium based cars are a very competent cars, if not quite what you would expect from an Alfa Romeo. But it definitely was a step in the right direction.

Now that Fiat seems to be out of trouble, look forward to proper Alfa Romeos and (hopefully) Lancias in the next generation of cars.

[Ferrer]

And now the estate, from Autopareri as well.

[ruim20]

The thing i don't like about the sedan are the tail lights, too BMW for me, citroen could have used the new type from the picassos and C4.

[Clivey]

Well the most of the attributes think lead to think that as far as handling and performance are concerned the Alfa Romeo 147 GTA is rubbish, and it's probably right. However that wouldn't put me off. Yes it's not perfect, but when you have that styling, that interior and above all that engine everything else becomes a bit irrelevant. I certainly would buy one and all the less than perfect characteristics wouldn't put me off.

Regarding the 159/Brera/Spider, you have to bear in mind that it was a compromised from the start. It was made during the dark days at Fiat, when the group was at the verge of bankruptcy, and at when the tie-up with GM was still strong. So while the Premium platform (the one that underpins the 159, Brera and Spider) was at first engineered from a front engined rear wheel drive layout, Saab (which was also involved in the project) asked for a front engined front wheel drive layout and everything changed. As time went on Saab (and GM) pulled out because of the cost and Fiat was left with a platform which they had invested a lot of money on. At the same time if Alfa Romeo was to compete with the established german premium brands they had to up the quality.

So in the end Fiat decided that the Premium platform would underpin the next generation of mid size Alfa Romeos. As a result of all of the above the cars would still be front wheel drive, with a four wheel drive option, (altough theoretically the Premium is longitudinal engine capable) and that it would be overweight because Fiat had focused of quality and perceived quality and couldn't afford weight saving measures then. Despite that the Premium based cars are a very competent cars, if not quite what you would expect from an Alfa Romeo. But it definitely was a step in the right direction.

Now that Fiat seems to be out of trouble, look forward to proper Alfa Romeos and (hopefully) Lancias in the next generation of cars.

Let's hope so, eh?

I sat in the 159 a few weeks ago...absolutely stunning. It's on par with the BMW 3-Series as far as the interior is concerned - no doubt about it. YES, BUILD QUALITY INCLUDED!!! Everything's focussed around the driver whilst still being comfortable and refined for the passengers. The gearchange is excellent, position of the pedals equally so. everything falls to hand.

Hopefully I can afford one of these in the not-too-distant future. A beautiful car.