New threats for Israel

[CdocZ]

Israel is not exactly best friends with its neighbors, but what appears to be coming is not good. First, Syria is building up it's forces, moving them, and intensifying training. Israel got nervous, especially as the focus of this new buildup and troop movement, seems to be in the direction of the Syria/Israel border. Furthermore, Syria is 1) denying the buildup of military forces near Israel via radio and press, and 2) Defense Minister Peretz (of Syria) is warning Israel to stop tensions with Israel. I find this hypocritical as a Syrian Parliament member told Israel to "not do anything stupid, or there will be a heavy price". I find this hypocritical, as Israel has yet to make any military reaction towards Syria, and Syria is becoming "offensively defensive" towards Israel.

The Syrian army is usually not exactly one that Israel would worry much about. However, the Syrian military is recieving generous amounts of funding from Iran. This "funding" is not limited to money; Iran is giving Syria everything from long and short range missiles, to naval warships. This is not exactly a surprise considering all very blunt threats Iran makes about "wiping Israel off the map".

Syria shares borders with Israel, along Israel's North, around the Golan Heights. Due to where the Golan Heights are in respect to the borders, it gives Syria the strategic advantage, which has proved incredibly useful to them throughout the many times they invaded Israel. The most famous example of this is the Yom Kippur war, which was among the most costly wars Israel has ever been through.

The situation is not looking good....anyone have any thoughts?

[h00t_h00t]

Israel is always asking for it, the reasons for invading Lebanon were as bad as the ones used for Iraq. Assinating people with apaches doesn't go down well either. Nor does having nuclear weapons and pointing them at everyone.

[CdocZ]

Israel is always asking for it, the reasons for invading Lebanon were as bad as the ones used for Iraq. Assinating people with apaches doesn't go down well either. Nor does having nuclear weapons and pointing them at everyone.

Can you please at least use diplomatic language. I have VERY strong feelings for the homeland of my people, and I'd prefer it if people didn't use language that in itself is deliberately offending.

And they point those nuclear weapons at so many people, because the majority of the countries around them have one wish for their relations with Israel - to stop all existance of relations, along with the existance of Israel. Egypt is at peace with Israel, because America pays them, Syria is building up its forces, the terrorists attack them from Lebanon, Iran is building nuclear weapons while declaring their primary goal is to obliterate Israel, and Russia deals with Syria KNOWING, with physical evidence, that the weapons that they sell to Syria are ending up in Hezbollah's hands. I don't see how thats asking for it when virtually everyone around you is against you.

Once again - please do not say anything deliberately offending. I understand you might be against Israel's actions - I am not blind, and I know that some of the things Israel does are not exactly the best.

[werty]

pointing nukes around works...and if syria really wants to get blown up by them, i say they should go for it

:p

but seriously...syria doesnt stand a chance

[CdocZ]

pointing nukes around works...and if syria really wants to get blown up by them, i say they should go for it

:p

but seriously...syria doesnt stand a chance

Syria has Iranian/Chinese weapons and funding, and some of Russia's newest and most advanced missiles. They don't have a chance....on their own. However, even alone they could cause alot of damage. With Iran, and things can get very dangerous, very quickly.

[johnnyperl]

Syria?! No, the biggest threat to Israel is LENS CAPS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sucTvv-TXRw)

[Coventrysucks]

Can you please at least use diplomatic language. I have VERY strong feelings for the homeland of my people, and I'd prefer it if people didn't use language that in itself is deliberately offending.

Get off your moral high-horse now, before you fall off.


Iran is building nuclear weapons while declaring their primary goal is to obliterate Israel,

Ah, the pro-Israel propaganda works a charm.

Iran says it doesn't want nuclear weapons, and I don't think that any of Iran's leaders has ever seriously suggested that Israel should be "obliterated".

They are harsh critics, obviously, but your comment equates them genocidal fanatics.

If they were that intent on the "obliteration" of Israel - wouldn't they have made a start before now?


I don't see how thats asking for it when virtually everyone around you is against you.

That is very Naive.

Arabic people are Arabic, not stupid.

Your comment implies that you think that all of these Arbaic nations have one purpose only - the destruction of Israel - a notion which would be rather racist and xenophobic, so you might wish to consider your own request to not "offend" anyone.

The Middle East is not a situation where any event can be viewed in isolation - the background is so ingrained, it cannot be ignored.

No one in the region particularly wanted Israel there in the first place, and they compounded the situation by attacking everyone else in the region, and buddying up with the USA to ensure that they were so strong no one else could stand up to them.

You might say they are "provoked" by terrorists, but the response is usually out of all proportion, and only serves to fans the flames, rather than put them out.

Invading a sovereign nation because terrorists captured two soldiers?
And then killing hundreds of innocent civilians, because the terrorists responded to an invasion by firing rockets into Israel.

Nothing was actually achieved by Israel's actions - aside from a lot of people being killed, and massively bolstering anti-Israeli support around the globe.

The problem in the Middle East was/is not the fault of the Israeli people (nor the Arabs), but their government doesn't seem to be working particularly hard to resolve the issue. Thanks to the USA, they are certainly one of the most powerful countries in the region, but they don't seem to be using that power for good.

Offer to help their neighbours, not bomb them; rebuild bridges in south Lebanon, perhaps, instead of destroying them.

If Israel isn't happy with Iran being "aggressive", perhaps Israel should stop assassinating Iranian scientists and asking the USA if they can fly their bomb-laden jets over Iraq on the way through.

[coolieman1220]

its touchy, world war 3 maybe. but israel has the US backing it. and the us doesn't gain anything from israel. anyways i stay out of politics. israel gives us no cars, nor does syria

[CdocZ]

Get off your moral high-horse now, before you fall off.

I say that because I take personal offense at that statement, as I am a Jew. It has nothing to do with my morals. That is what I meant by "offending". Nothing else. People can say they really dislike Israel's actions, and that Israel is doing the wrong thing, or whatever. But when people give me the sense that they believe that Israel does not have the right to exist, it touches a nerve for me.


Iran says it doesn't want nuclear weapons, and I don't think that any of Iran's leaders has ever seriously suggested that Israel should be "obliterated".

Yes, they have. I believe BBC to be a credible source, so here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4378948.stm


If they were that intent on the "obliteration" of Israel - wouldn't they have made a start before now?


Arabic people are Arabic, not stupid.

Never said they were stupid. I respect the Arab and Muslim people very much. However, I do not respect the terrorists and extremists who publicly demand Israel's annihalation.



Your comment implies that you think that all of these Arbaic nations have one purpose only - the destruction of Israel - a notion which would be rather racist and xenophobic, so you might wish to consider your own request to not "offend" anyone.

I listed Egypt, Syria, and Iran. Thats not all. However, the statement from Iran definitely suggests there is at least one powerful country in the area that wants Israel dead. I do see your point in that I am generalizing on this issue, and I will do my best to stop that from here on.


No one in the region particularly wanted Israel there in the first place, and they compounded the situation by attacking everyone else in the region, and buddying up with the USA to ensure that they were so strong no one else could stand up to them.

I did not ask for "Palestine" to be where Israel would be situated. The people who created the Zionist movement, did. However, that decision is a little too far in the past to be dealt with at the moment. However, England DID offer around half the land to be given to the Palestinians and Arabs. The current Palestinian leader (I am not sure, but if my memory serves correctly, it was Arafat) refused, saying that the Palestinians would either take the whole land, or none of it. I do not blame the Palestinian people, but it is truly an unfortunate thing that the leader of the time made this decision for the Palestinian people.

Israel went to the USA because if it did not get arms from the USA quickly, they would be destroyed. In that time, the USA was virtually the only country that would do such a thing for Israel. Also, the War of 1948 was virtually EVERY nearby country attacking Israel, simply because it had been created. Israel did not go out and start attacking people, they were attacked first in that case.


You might say they are "provoked" by terrorists, but the response is usually out of all proportion, and only serves to fans the flames, rather than put them out.

Alright, maybe Israel does provoke them sometimes. That doesn't change the fact that BOTH sides need to change something.


Invading a sovereign nation because terrorists captured two soldiers?
And then killing hundreds of innocent civilians, because the terrorists responded to an invasion by firing rockets into Israel.

3 I think. I never said I approved of Israel invading Lebanon, and inf act, that is one of the things Israel has done that I do not approve of. However, Israel did not deliberately kill the civilians. First, there have been hundreds of findings that some of the pictures released from the "Lebanese Government" had people faking dead, or were doctored. I do not mean to claim that "so few civilians died" or something; I am just pointing out that some imagery was overdone. Also, Hezbollah would sometimes collect civilians and take them into the building where they were hiding, so if the building was bombed, Israel looks like sociopathic monsters. I believe Israel has enough military intelligence that they at least sometimes KNEW that this was happening, and therefore I condemn some of these building-bombings because they could have tried to be more careful. Overall the whole conflict was very immoral and wrong on both sides.


Nothing was actually achieved by Israel's actions - aside from a lot of people being killed, and massively bolstering anti-Israeli support around the globe.

I agree, which leads to two seperate points. 1) I agree that nothing was really accomplished, and that in the end, it was a bad mistake and blunder. However, 2), Because of this new rise in anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic feelings (various people turn it into a Judaism = Israel and that it is the Jews that cause a lack of world peace), I believe, as a Jew it is partly my responsibility to, while being reasonable, try to show people that Israel is not the horrifying monster it is sometimes portrayed as.


The problem in the Middle East was/is not the fault of the Israeli people (nor the Arabs), but their government doesn't seem to be working particularly hard to resolve the issue. Thanks to the USA, they are certainly one of the most powerful countries in the region, but they don't seem to be using that power for good.

The problem in the Middle East, is no particular groups fault. It is a culmination of various groups NOT doing something to stop this. As a result, I believe both the anti-Israeli Arabs and the aggressive Israelis are the ones who need to start fixing this mess. BTW, the "anti-Israeli Arabs" and "aggressive Israelis" were not meant to be generalizations - I just don't have anything else to call the groups besides the extremists of Israel and the Arab World.


Offer to help their neighbours, not bomb them; rebuild bridges in south Lebanon, perhaps, instead of destroying them.

I agree that this is the way to go. However, I also believe that, however it is done, relations with the more extreme elements in Islam must become friendly first. I do not believe violence is the way to do this, but I do not believe just suddenly rebuilding is going to make Hezbollah feel all warm and cuddly inside.


If Israel isn't happy with Iran being "aggressive", perhaps Israel should stop assassinating Iranian scientists and asking the USA if they can fly their bomb-laden jets over Iraq on the way through.

I do not know much about the fighters flying over Iraq thing, and will read about that later. As for assasinations, I almost always condemn those. Example: If you assasinate someone because of their views, that is wrong. However, if someone had assasinated Saddam.....if what they accused him of was correct, then that is something I would not condemn.

As I do not know exactly who these scientists are (With Iran's "Scholarly study of the Holocaust" recently, I am not sure what they call scientists anymore), could you show me some reports on these people. Please do not give me reports from Iran itself, as considering the press is government controlled, and their president has, publicly, called for the destruction of Israel, I am more cautious of their press.

I feel there is a misunderstanding in my views about Israel, so I shall summarize them briefly.

I am not a blind pro-Israel type of person. I disagree with alot of what Israel does. However, it is the type of situation where there are hundreds of things I wish so much could be avoided, but sometimes I have to be understanding. These people are constantly under stress, and I admire the average Israeli for first of all, being able to get over the fear of knowing somewhere there will be another bombing that day, and at the same time, that the majority of the Israeli population does not hold all Arabs responsible. They realize first hand, as 1/5th of the Israeli population is Arab, that not all Arab's are these terrorists and extremists. I agree with this, as it is correct, and is perhaps going to be the key in bringing this conflict to a close.

I understand that not everyone is pro-Israel, but as Coventry mentioned, alot of people use this as a reason to hate Israel, and in many cases sadly, also the Jews. As a Jew of Slavic decent, I am proud of both of my roots, hence why I somewhat feel it is partly my responsibility to at least try to convince people not hate Israel for being Israel, or Jews for being Jews. I know I cannot make people believe that Israel is in the right, because that would be unrealistic. I am sorry if people are not used to my being an activist of any sort, but I find this to be a cause worth fighting, peacefully, for.

[CdocZ]

its touchy, world war 3 maybe. but israel has the US backing it. and the us doesn't gain anything from israel.

Israel is being given vast amounts of funding, by the US, to create the laser-based anti-ballistic missile system. The deal is that America is basically buying it, by funding it. Also, the Copperhead anti-tank missile system, and the armor that is in every American tank that only the Copperhead can easily defeat, were both developed by Israel. Furthermore, alot of American military technology comes from Israel. Communications gear, the new "tablet" computers that squad commanders use to direct troops, the shirts that have copper wiring in them and a computer, so when the shirt is penetrated by a bullet or shrapnel, it sets off an alarm that contacts the local HQ, giving 1) the penetrating obects size, 2) where the hit was, and 3) predicted damage that the bullet caused.

Plus Israel invented the instant messenger system which is now done by companies like AOL and MSN.

[Kitdy]

The way I see it as is neither side is right - both are wrong. The true heroes aren't the soldiers or commanders but the activists calling for a degrading of hostilities. Israel exists - in my mind, it should probably always exist - but there needs to be more concessions made by both sides. Saying Israel is wrong and/or evil is just like saying the Arabs are wrong and/or evil. In reality, both sides do bad things. Unfortunately, both sides can't seem to get along and this seems like it will last for ages.

Though I am a man of peace and generally hate all wars, I am not sure how a situation like Iran having nuclear weapons should be handled. When Iraq last tried to get them, a pinprick surgical operation struck the Osirak nuclear facility - seemingly the correct choice - but it is always hard to say when you try to anyalze the ethics of the situation perfectly.

I know peace isn't going to happen for a while (though I could be wrong) but I think someone for once over there has to stop escelating their forces and take a chance that they will be attacked or bombed or whatever - and do this action with not the intention of getting world opinion in your favour but because it is the right thing to do. The real tragedy is how many people have died in this long and torturous struggle.

[Coventrysucks]

But when people give me the sense that they believe that Israel does not have the right to exist, it touches a nerve for me.

Where has anyone in this thread said or implied that Israel doesn't have the right to exist?

"Israel has it coming to them" merely means - as you accept - Israel has done its share of bad things in the region that will get only one form of response from its opponents.

The "terrorists" have it coming to them too.


Yes, they have. I believe BBC to be a credible source, so here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4378948.stm

The BBC is not a credible source.

Further more, I'm sure I have seen an interview with Ahmadinejad explaining that it was not ment in a literal sense.

I'm not going to bother to try and find the source though.

Besides, saying something, believeing something and doing something are all different things.


However, England DID offer around half the land to be given to the Palestinians and Arabs.

England did nothing.

The British may have made that offer, but in the end they got tired of everyone blowing things up and left it to the UN to make the final divisions.


I do not know much about the fighters flying over Iraq thing, and will read about that later.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wiran124.xml


As I do not know exactly who these scientists are

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C02%5C05%5Cstory_5-2-2007_pg1_10


I find this to be a cause worth fighting, peacefully, for.

Quite.

I doubt that an attack on Iran will do much to resolve the situation though.

[Kitdy]

Personally, I feel we just nuke everybody. Unfortunately after SALT I and SALT II, there ain't as much nukes left around anymore, but I still think that humanity has the capability of destroying all human life 32 times over. I will use the only unbiased source of information in the world - Wikipedia (:D) - to verify this...
Alack, I have not found it and am to lazy to delve further. Anyways, the forced-entire-world-explode option is the only way in hell that guarantees peace for the next couple million years.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I find it difficult to reconcile how Israel can be so offensive to the rest of the surrounding communities - through militaristic and political means - and then cry foul when others follow suit against them.

every country has a right to defend themselves, and i can understand that Israel was given a particularly raw deal in regards to it's location - most of the surrounding area wants the country to disappear. but they do not help things by being so delibrately antagonistic.

Syria risks conflict with the US if they go against Israel. but then the US faces conflict with the middle east (what a new concept!) and the new east. this will only end in tears.

[Rockefella]

The situation is not looking good....anyone have any thoughts?

My thoughts: Israel has to stop shoving their noses in everyone's business. My friend Zach is Jewish and went to Israel twice or something, so I have to listen to him cry and complain about Israel's problems.

I've gotten to the point of nearly hating Israel and their diplomatic policy.

[man 430gt]

I've gotten to the point of nearly hating Israel and their diplomatic policy.
I agree after what happened in Lebanon, I can imgine them (Israel) getting heavily taken over by surrounding countries, only a matter of time but don't threat! America Will come to the rescue, oh wait there still tied up in Iraq therefore you'll proberly just recieve more Nukes to use then :rolleyes: By the way thats not really a anti-American post it's just that I don't like Isreal that much and well I'm pretty sure America won't miss out on the chance to attack another Middle-east country..

[man 430gt]

but seriously...syria doesnt stand a chance
Seriously?! nAW D4wG! Man that's the biggest load of BS I've head from you werty man! Come'on!

[drakkie]

Violence doesnt solve violence, it creates new violence.

Something the USA and their allies never understood. It is now paying off for them. Propaganda-machines are running like crazy to keep up with all the bad news for them :o

[IBrake4Rainbows]

This has very little to do with Americans. focus on the issue at hand.

[silverhawk]

Israel is surrounded by countries that dont accept it. it should try to take steps to come to some peaceful terms with its neighbours but has it? no, just the opposite.

[aiasib]

Mel Gibson was right.

[CdocZ]

Mel Gibson was right.

I am not sure what to say to that.

And Coventry, I know that kind of phrase literally does not say "I do not believe Israel has the right to exist". I cannot help my natural reactions however, and I admit it. Naturally, I take that as a sort of "In your face" type statement. I wish I didn't, as I see that it is simply a figure of speech that need not have any genocidal connotations to it, it just.....is my natural reaction. I cannot help my natural reaction, as I am merely human, as are you, and I hope you forgive me this weird instinct.

As for the assasinations and fighter jets issue.....the scientists I can understand their reasoning, but I do agree that it is wrong. I can see why - Israel is very paranoid, and very afraid that Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons. Whether or not Iran is indeed attempting to get nuclear weapons, is entirely another issue, and mostly irrelevant. The assasination was wrong - nuclear physics might be tied with the most deadly of weapons, but the results of nuclear research are key to allowing a civilization these days to bring itself farther. Iran is not the most modernized of countries, and nuclear weapons regardless, will someday need nuclear based-technologies to modernize itself.

On the point of the land being split, before Israel became a country - Alright, even if England did not actually make the choice in the end, that does not change that the Palestinian leader(s) refused to take what they were offered simply because they were not given all of it. I have looked deeper into the matter, and you were right - it was the UN's plan. However, the Arab nations rejected this compromise. After Israel's war of Independance when five neighboring countries jointly attacked Israel, Israel once again offered a compromise to let refugees back to their lands, give all frozen bank account funds to the refugees, and also to compensate ~100,000 refugees for their losses. Considering Israel had barely been in existance for a full year yet and were barely able to support themselves, and had spent alot of this year fighting a war in which they were vastly outnumbered, this is rather generous. The Arab nations refused, partly on the basis that it would be a recognition of Israel's existance. Israel later still went through with parts of this compromise. As there were more situations like this, I cannot blame some of the older Israeli's to be distrustful of their neighbors. I am not saying they are in the right to be distrustful, I am just saying that when you have very little to offer, but offer it anyway, and they refuse simply because they do not want to acknowledge your existance....That does not build the foundations of trust, and memory is what the vast majority of human opinions and beliefs are based on (subconciously).

As a note, various Arab countries for a very long time refused to acknowledge Israel's existance. However, I am pretty sure that this has mostly ended.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-09-22-hamas-israel_x.htm This, is a step in the wrong direction. However, this following Washington Post article, desribes a step in the right direction.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092101635.html

On to the BBC article and the statement by the Iranian president. I really want to see the article you are referring to, as that is the type of thing where I want to see evidence saying that I would be wrong to believe that statement. I will look for it later when I have time (Junior year is horrid....standardized test prep and my school makes a point of making its junior year the most hellish even compared to most private schools....ugh).

Rock, you brought up a good point. I am not referring to you, I am just making the following clear - I do not want to seem like a whiny little pro-Israel ignorant little jerkoff, for the reason Rock made clear - it makes people hate Israel. So, if at any moment anyone feels I am becoming unreasonable/closed-minded, tell me. I want to be pro-Israel, and I do hope to lessen anti-Israeli feelings and/or raise pro-Israeli feelings, but I do not want to alienate myself from this community, or a particular person. I like this community :p

[drakkie]

but I do not want to alienate myself from this community, or a particular person. I like this community :p

Criticize the USA and it happens over here :o


This has very little to do with Americans. focus on the issue at hand.

It has more to do with the USA then you think. A large amount of rich American Jews fund the state of Israel. The media is also largely owned by rich American jews. They also have a very high influence on the White House. They gave Israel nuclar bombs and weapons. They protect Israel diplomatically and they do many more things.
But anyway i was really referring to the style of foreign policies done the last few years, namely "Shoot first, talk later...". It isnt just the USA and Israel that do this, but too many other "allies" too. Iran however is kind of willing to talk, but that gets little attention at all, in the 3rd propaganda war.;)



DISCLAIMER(sad it is needed) :

Please read this below before posting !

Dont take this as if I am anti-jews. I have never talked knowingly to one and have little knowledge about their culture. I try to remain neutral, regarding the PEOPLE and culture of a nation. I will only criticize governments and policies, dont take it personally please, that's never my intention.

[Ferrer]

I try to remain neutral
And you fail completely by the looks of things...

[Mr.Tiv]

A large amount of rich American Jews fund the state of Israel. The media is also largely owned by rich American jews.

Those two sentences made me laugh, the second more so than the first. I don't know why. I understand your intentions are not to offend, but the way you word things...

[CdocZ]

Criticize the USA and it happens over here :o



It has more to do with the USA then you think. A large amount of rich American Jews fund the state of Israel. The media is also largely owned by rich American jews. They also have a very high influence on the White House. They gave Israel nuclar bombs and weapons. They protect Israel diplomatically and they do many more things.
But anyway i was really referring to the style of foreign policies done the last few years, namely "Shoot first, talk later...". It isnt just the USA and Israel that do this, but too many other "allies" too. Iran however is kind of willing to talk, but that gets little attention at all, in the 3rd propaganda war.;)



DISCLAIMER(sad it is needed) :

Please read this below before posting !

Dont take this as if I am anti-jews. I have never talked knowingly to one and have little knowledge about their culture. I try to remain neutral, regarding the PEOPLE and culture of a nation. I will only criticize governments and policies, dont take it personally please, that's never my intention.

I am Jewish, so you know that you have talked to a Jew before :p

Even as I was reading that, I did not take offense. I nearly did, but it wasn't like you were saying "JEWS CONTROL THE MEDIA". I also know that it actually is true that alot of the people who own these types of businesses, are Jewish (Hollywood, anyone?).

Also, Israel created its own first nuclear weapon, with some help - it originally was a secret (it quite literally was one of those "underground" facilities that you normally only hear about in books and movies), but its starting to get out. DImona. A facility that was hidden under the guise of a desalination plant, and built largely with the help of not America, but France, who supplied parts and nothing else.

EDIT: BTW, not sure about the Iran peace talks....but Israel is stuck when it comes to Syria. Israel wants to engage in the peace talks Syria is initiating (Especially as Syria and Spain are starting talks), however, America is pressuring Israel to not make any diplomatic contact with Syria at all. I would not be suprised if this was not the only situation with this happening.

[Niko_Fx]

I've gotten to the point of nearly hating Israel and their diplomatic policy.

Amen..

[drakkie]

And you fail completely by the looks of things...

Could you explain your opinion please ? I'm curious what makes you think so. The things i posted here are what i take for facts mostly... Everyone is free to correct.

[Ferrer]

Could you explain your opinion please ? I'm curious what makes you think so. The things i posted here are what i take for facts mostly... Everyone is free to correct.
The fact that you always blame the US for everything and that everyone the US is against are the nicest and most collaborating people in the world.

[Kitdy]

The fact that you always blame the US for everything and that everyone the US is against are the nicest and most collaborating people in the world.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, SNAAAAAAP.

[speednine]

Violence doesnt solve violence, it creates new violence.

Something the USA and their allies never understood. It is now paying off for them. Propaganda-machines are running like crazy to keep up with all the bad news for them :o

And what has talking about things done? Nothing....

the problem with israel is the shitty location and them wanting to be a part of the holy land. In the 40's the league of nationas (kind of like nato is now) really eff'ed things up and didn't really think about the consequences of the future, due to dealing with the cold war. IMO israel shouldn't exist. They are a big pimple on the ass of America, and i hate how my country always has to help bale them out of their problem.

Personally the west should just nuke the entire middle east, aswell as israel. For some reason none of them can get a long with each other. Maybe it is because they all have very radical beleifs???

[CdocZ]

And what has talking about things done? Nothing....

the problem with israel is the shitty location and them wanting to be a part of the holy land. In the 40's the league of nationas (kind of like nato is now) really eff'ed things up and didn't really think about the consequences of the future, due to dealing with the cold war. IMO israel shouldn't exist. They are a big pimple on the ass of America, and i hate how my country always has to help bale them out of their problem.

Personally the west should just nuke the entire middle east, aswell as israel. For some reason none of them can get a long with each other. Maybe it is because they all have very radical beleifs???

Saying Israel does nothing for America, is possibly the only genuinely wrong thing said in this thread so far.

EDIT: The League of Nations was the predecessor to the UN. It was the UN plan, that put Israel where it is. They DID think of the future, by making several compromises in the first plan - However, virtually ALL the Arab countries voted against it in a UN vote. So, they did think of the future.

Let's not forget talk ended the Cold War. WW1 was not ended because one nation finally was destroyed - Germany surrendered, realizing nothing was going anywhere. Two of the most important conflicts in history, ended with talk.

[werty]

Seriously?! nAW D4wG! Man that's the biggest load of BS I've head from you werty man! Come'on!

it's my personal opinion. if you think its bs, then tough luck for you bud...I could care less what you think

[coolieman1220]

im writing an essay for my AP US History class right now about World War I and how america lost its policy started of neutrality. maybe we should go back to it

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It has more to do with the USA then you think. A large amount of rich American Jews fund the state of Israel. The media is also largely owned by rich American jews. They also have a very high influence on the White House. They gave Israel nuclar bombs and weapons. They protect Israel diplomatically and they do many more things.

I am fully aware that, before world war II, the second largest concentration of Jewish people was in New York. the first was Poland :(

I have read your disclaimer and find it mildly offensive you think i am not as well versed on the issue as you believe. I am of the opinion that, should a choice arise between Oil and Israel, the US will first try to invade the offending country, and if that doesn't work give up on Israel. the country has been allowed to get away with shocking stuff simply by being the petulant spoilt child of the ineffective UN group set up to look after it.

I'd like to think of these threats as hollow but i know that Israeli's and Arabs are especially trigger happy when it comes to the idea of defending your constantly threatened homeland or removing the Jewish monster from the Arab landscape. this goes way back to the book of genesis.

Neutrality doesn't solve the problem. I'm beginning to think that perhaps a solution cannot be reached - something will have to come to a head.

[KeepIt]

Syria has Iranian/Chinese weapons and funding, and some of Russia's newest and most advanced missiles. They don't have a chance....on their own. However, even alone they could cause alot of damage. With Iran, and things can get very dangerous, very quickly.

I agree with you but the fact is Syria/Iran actually want to destroy Israel regardless of Israel's actions so both countries are essentially acting like bullies. What is the best way to deal with a bully? Honestly they need to be taught a lesson that you can't provoke a fight with a country just because you have blind hatred for them. And I guarantee if the Jews were out of the picture Syria and Iran would then turn on each other.

[kigango123]

I agree with you but the fact is Syria/Iran actually want to destroy Israel regardless of Israel's actions so both countries are essentially acting like bullies. What is the best way to deal with a bully? Honestly they need to be taught a lesson that you can't provoke a fight with a country just because you have blind hatred for them. And I guarantee if the Jews were out of the picture Syria and Iran would then turn on each other.

naw, naw , naw ,men!, you got it all wrong

Syria and Iran are after the land on which israel is in. Not israel itself, the islamic terror groups are acting as a guise for irans and syria's political interests, Land. When israel settled the settled near the "holy city " which is essentially a delta (a very fertile area close to the red sea).If they had settled a little side away from the location which essentially holds key to irans and syria's key to the gulf or the red sea, there would have been very little problems.

But what's done is done, israel should focus on cultivating a good relationship with its neigbours i.e political, financial and business relationships, not pointing nukes at its neighbours. Its like a hostage taker with a gun, once his hostages get guns, he is gone.

[KeepIt]

naw, naw , naw ,men!, you got it all wrong

Syria and Iran are after the land on which israel is in. Not israel itself, the islamic terror groups are acting as a guise for irans and syria's political interests, Land. When israel settled the settled near the "holy city " which is essentially a delta (a very fertile area close to the red sea).If they had settled a little side away from the location which essentially holds key to irans and syria's key to the gulf or the red sea, there would have been very little problems.

But what's done is done, israel should focus on cultivating a good relationship with its neigbours i.e political, financial and business relationships, not pointing nukes at its neighbours. Its like a hostage taker with a gun, once his hostages get guns, he is gone.


I am definitely not an expert on this conflict but I'm pretty sure it isn't all about land. There is definitely some religious anomosity

[kigango123]

I am definitely not an expert on this conflict but I'm pretty sure it isn't all about land. There is definitely some religious anomosity

Yes there is, but it is also safe to say that this religious anomosity is not in the gorvenments. The people, yes; but the gorvenment, No!; its just like saying bush invaded iraq for religious reasons, now bush maybe an mumbling idiot but he sure as God keeps his religion away from his politics.

[Cyco]

now bush maybe an mumbling idiot but he sure as god keeps his religion away from his politics.

No he doesn't he uses his God as an reason.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I hope to god that last comment was sarcasm Kigango123.

[Mr.Tiv]

Yes there is, but it is also safe to say that this religious anomosity is not in the gorvenments. The people, yes; but the gorvenment, No!; its just like saying bush invaded iraq for religious reasons, now bush maybe an mumbling idiot but he sure as God keeps his religion away from his politics.

Where are you from? You seem very confused.

[speednine]

[QUOTE=CdocZ;672768]Saying Israel does nothing for America, is possibly the only genuinely wrong thing said in this thread so far.

QUOTE]

Woah, there champ, don't put words in my mouth. By saying that we bale them out all the time i didn't mean they never did anything for us. Honestly, i don't care what they do for america. I just find it highly annoying that captain America always has to be there whenever they get in trouble with jordan, anyone, etc.

[Blue Supra]

just nuke em all, make the whole middle eastern region a big shiny smooth area of melted sand and then there will be no more problems.

the US will have no one to invade/pillage/waste money on and the middle east will not be able to bomb/kidnap/behead/terrorise anyone.

Both the worlds 2nd largest issues solved so we can focus on climate change.

[CdocZ]

Woah, there champ, don't put words in my mouth. By saying that we bale them out all the time i didn't mean they never did anything for us. Honestly, i don't care what they do for america. I just find it highly annoying that captain America always has to be there whenever they get in trouble with jordan, anyone, etc.

Well, if America did not support Israel, I highly doubt America would be given the technology it so desperately wants from Israel.

EDIT:
No he doesn't he uses his God as an reason.

Yes.....I find it rather awkward.

EDIT2:
I am definitely not an expert on this conflict but I'm pretty sure it isn't all about land. There is definitely some religious anomosity

Far more than most would believe. Alot of the time that extremist Muslims give their "death to America" speechs and rants, they also equate America with the Jews, not as the same group, but as two seperate groups that must be destroyed. These people who say "death to ____" are the extreme side of the extreme, but even so, they sometimes get radio/air time and people listen. I saw a documentary about these guys and their anti-Semitism, its basically a documentary filled with the same kind of clips as you see on tv with a crazed riot burning flags, and people on tv preaching to "destroy capitalism", so it is not exactly something completely unfamiliar and unknown. But it is sickening when they show you the clip of someone who easily looks to be highly intelligent saying that your people are the bane of the Earth, and a little girl crying with excitement as she recites a poem in class about how badly she wants to kill the Jews. I know this is like the most extreme 5%, of the extreme wings of Islam that already is only 10-15% of Islam. But it exists......damn, man, thats intense.

[Rockefella]

Well, if America did not support Israel, I highly doubt America would be given the technology it so desperately wants from Israel.

I don't think America 'desperately wants' the technology from Israel.. sure, it helps, but it comes from heavy American funding. Most of the technology could be developed here in America anyway.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The problem is that extreme 5-10% get 50-70% of airtime on foreign news. both the Islamic fundamentalists and the Christian/Jewish groups.

the moderates who live in all countries, and who are more than willing to understand that the situation is causing more harm than good, are the one's worth listening to. but of course sane and rational thinking does not good primetime news make.

don't believe all that you see/hear, and only part of what you read.

[Kitdy]

I don't think America 'desperately wants' the technology from Israel.. sure, it helps, but it comes from heavy American funding. Most of the technology could be developed here in America anyway.

America is the technological leader of the world. And kinda Japan and Germany.

[kigango123]

I hope to god that last comment was sarcasm Kigango123.

nope, turns out that bush is a christian, big suprise, but a real stubborn headed christian and you know how damn stupid christians can be. but he keeps his religion and politics diffrent, if they are together it is to better his political stance and nothing else

[quattro_20v]

Sorry for offtopic, but why does he prefer the creation theory rather then the evolution theory in schools?
I think on schools the creation theory should be out of the picture as it is based on beliefs and not facts. That's the only thing I can mention, but there might be more.

[CdocZ]

I don't think America 'desperately wants' the technology from Israel.. sure, it helps, but it comes from heavy American funding. Most of the technology could be developed here in America anyway.

Well, ok, "desperate" is not the right word. But America still does buy various technologies from Israel. The Copperhead anti-tank missile and the armor that was related to it's production, America did not fund, same with the Israeli invented "copper shirt" idea. Various communications technologies America gets from Israel, it depends on what specific thing you look at. Various things were more or less an Israeli innovation based on telecommunications and GPS, which I believe America just "bought lessons" for on how to make them better than their own attempts.

[Matra et Alpine]

I find this hypocritical, as Israel has yet to make any military reaction towards Syria, and Syria is becoming "offensively defensive" towards Israel.
You should remember that Israel invaded land from neighbouring states without any prior statements.
So if I was any of them I'd be thinking the same is possible again in seeing ANY Israeli troop movements :(

Perhaps a starting point should be the unequivocal return of all lands and a return to the pre-67 borders.

PS: Re nuclear program....The Brits provided lots of materials and knowledge too. There was a major exposure a couple of years back and some of the info came out of the 30 year secrets act embargo. TUrns out lots of stuff shipped via a Norwegian company so Britain coudl plausibly deny supplying/assisting Israel !!

[CdocZ]

You should remember that Israel invaded land from neighbouring states without any prior statements.
So if I was any of them I'd be thinking the same is possible again in seeing ANY Israeli troop movements :(

Perhaps a starting point should be the unequivocal return of all lands and a return to the pre-67 borders.

PS: Re nuclear program....The Brits provided lots of materials and knowledge too. There was a major exposure a couple of years back and some of the info came out of the 30 year secrets act embargo. TUrns out lots of stuff shipped via a Norwegian company so Britain coudl plausibly deny supplying/assisting Israel !!

True. But we should also remember the most famous example of Israel invading other nations was the Six Day War - it was started, when Israel decided on a pre-emptive strike as Egypt was becoming a rather....aggressive neighbor. The rest of the war ensued when Jordon, among others, couner-attacked.

I'll just put it out there - without any guided weapons or anything, Israel wiped out virtually the entire Egyptian Air Force and a huge amount of all the air base's functional capabilities out, in a single day. Impressive!

EDIT: The primary reason Israel struck the Egyptian Air Force, was because their Air Force had the latest Soviet technology, and vastly outpowered and outnumbered what the Israeli Air Force was capable of stopping. If Israel let the Egyptian Air Force live.....and eventually strike Israel.....Israel's survival was in trouble.

[speednine]

You should remember that Israel invaded land from neighbouring states without any prior statements.
So if I was any of them I'd be thinking the same is possible again in seeing ANY Israeli troop movements :(

Perhaps a starting point should be the unequivocal return of all lands and a return to the pre-67 borders.

PS: Re nuclear program....The Brits provided lots of materials and knowledge too. There was a major exposure a couple of years back and some of the info came out of the 30 year secrets act embargo. TUrns out lots of stuff shipped via a Norwegian company so Britain coudl plausibly deny supplying/assisting Israel !!

You've changed your story more times then O.J. simpson.

Atleast tell me this, are you actually jewish or just a convert through beleifs?

Because, it seems most everyone in this thread, with possibly teh exception of a few(YOU) has a neutral standpoint on the situation and thinks israel is just at fault as syria or whatever other muslim country they are pissing off next is attacking them. The whole "feel sorry for the jews because they ahve been through a lot" mentallity is getting old really fast....

[clutch-monkey]

my theory is america loves israel because israel does what america wishes it could do.

on the other hand, i may just be full of shit.

:D

[Matra et Alpine]

True. But we should also remember the most famous example of Israel invading other nations was the Six Day War
Not "also remember" -- it was the "Six day war" in 1967 that I was referring to.

- it was started, when Israel decided on a pre-emptive strike as Egypt was becoming a rather....aggressive neighbor. The rest of the war ensued when Jordon, among others, couner-attacked.
Isn't the hypocrisy jumping out at you ?
Why shoulnd't every other country surrounding Israel use those same reasons as justification ?

I'll just put it out there - without any guided weapons or anything, Israel wiped out virtually the entire Egyptian Air Force and a huge amount of all the air base's functional capabilities out, in a single day. Impressive!
Not really.
That's why modern generals prefer pre-emptive strikes.
Cath the opponent off-guard and unabel to deply their defences.
Just liek Pearl Harbour -- 'cept Japan didn't actually have the heart to totally devestate and pulled back other forces.


If Israel let the Egyptian Air Force live.....and eventually strike Israel.....Israel's survival was in trouble.
oh dear.,
Replace Israel with Lebanon ( or Syria or Irawq or Iran or .. ) and Egyption Air Force with Israel.
THAT is the issue that will forever haunt Israel for as long as war-mongers control the government.

[Blue Supra]

i still say jus turn eveerything into glass and let whats left take care of itself. much chesper\eqasier in the long run@!

[KeepIt]

hahaha......your not a dipolmat are you?

[CdocZ]

Isn't the hypocrisy jumping out at you ?
Why shoulnd't every other country surrounding Israel use those same reasons as justification ?

Egypt was creating naval blockades, in places Israel and other countries used as shipping routes. The Japanese attacked America on the reason that they were slowly being strangled - Israel just was a little less patient on the issue of being economically strangled :p But also, Israel didn't have the same built up structure beforehand to try to live off until new industries could be opened up enough. To give even more detail, ALOT of Israel's tourism is focused on the beach's and waterfronts. Which is where the Egyptian navy was.


Not really.
That's why modern generals prefer pre-emptive strikes.
Cath the opponent off-guard and unabel to deply their defences.
Just liek Pearl Harbour -- 'cept Japan didn't actually have the heart to totally devestate and pulled back other forces.

Israel lives off of some technology enterprises, and tourism. When your southern ports are being closed off, and tourists are being intimidated by the Egyptian warships out in the waters.....Once again, Israel was in the same position as Japan. Japan did not attack America simply cause they wanted to destroy America - otherwise they would have been more alright with destroying the rest of Pearl Harbor. Israel didn't obliterate half of Egypt - just the air force because that was the primary threat that was imposing upon them the most at that moment.


oh dear.,
Replace Israel with Lebanon ( or Syria or Irawq or Iran or .. ) and Egyption Air Force with Israel.
THAT is the issue that will forever haunt Israel for as long as war-mongers control the government.

Once again, the Egyptian naval blockades around the Sinai and the south of Israel were not exactly healthy for the Israeli economy, forgetting that it is a tactical and strategic threat, militarily speaking.

More info:
Before Israel actually went on the offensive, Arab armies started moving towards Israel. These included primarily the Egyptian military, buffered by the addition of the Jordanian army. Also closing in on the Israeli borders were the military powers of Iraq, Alrgeria, Kuwait, Lebanon, Syria and Sudan. This was in May. Israel attacked, in June.

Furthermore, Israel had recieved intelligence on ~May 26th, that Egypt and Syria were going to attack within 48 hours. This was also found out by the USSR, which caused the delay - the USSR said they would not support Egypt, if Egypt started the war (understandable logic, considering the Soviet situation. The Soviets had signed something that made the Straits of Tiran, which Egypt wanted to/did block, an international zone.).

Egypt had ~100,000 soldiers ready for combat in the Sinai, with nearly a thousand tanks and as much artillery. Jordan and Syria also had several dozen thousands of troops. This was a hell of alot of firepower, considering the number of veterans and support. In that support were ~450 fighter planes, alot of them Soviet materials, well maintained and decently new. Israel had, including its reservist forces (which are basically the phsyically capable civilians) had 70,000 men available to pit against Egypt, and ~200 fighter planes that were what they could scrounge for, as they could not afford much even if they could find someone who was willing to sell (America sold, but not in overtly high numbers initially).

The fight with Egypt was a model for the other fights in the Six Day War - Israel was outnumbered on all fronts, yet not vastly so except in air firepower. Random stuff you find vs. new Soviet Tu-16's is not exactly a fair fight.

I don't think Israel was just being trigger happy, considering 1) the intelligence reports, 2) the naval blockades of the Sinai and the Tiran, and 3) the mass troop concentrations that outnumbered them on virtually every front.

[The_Canuck]

Not "also remember" -- it was the "Six day war" in 1967 that I was referring to.
.

Are you referring to Suez? That was '57 and the Brits and French asked them too...

If not, ignore this crap post... :D

[Cyco]

Israel didn't have the same built up structure beforehand to try to live off until new industries could be opened up enough. To give even more detail, ALOT of Israel's tourism is focused on the beach's and waterfronts. Which is where the Egyptian navy was.

So by blocking Lebanon and Syria's ports preventing fishing and moving troops northward means that the Lebanese and Syrians will be supported by you when they retaliate against Israel for preventing economic development, causing food shortages and eliminating tourism?

[CdocZ]

So by blocking Lebanon and Syria's ports preventing fishing and moving troops northward means that the Lebanese and Syrians will be supported by you when they retaliate against Israel for preventing economic development, causing food shortages and eliminating tourism?

Never said I completely supported the reasoning for the Six Day War.

Reasons for that post:
1) I can understand their reasoning, and it makes sense to me - even if I disagree, I cannot possibly imagine myself in that kind of situation, making that decision. So, I give them the benefit that at least they didn't go and do it for nothing. They had reasons, which I can understand. No homicidal insanity and illogical sociopathic desire that I can see.
2) Matra left out some key points in the circumstances surrounding the war. I do not believe it to be fair to say "Israel invaded them first" and be done with it.

Also, back then, Israel was constantly being told or hearing about how ministers of all ranks in the surrounding countries were saying "we want war, death to Israel". Virtually all of them made it open policy that they 1) did not recognize Israel politically (until reforms started happening, some would not even allow maps to have Israel on them), and 2) that they had a goal of annihalating the state of Israel that the rest of the world believed in. It is understandable why Israel would 1) take up the very specified and deliberate military threats of its neighbors when they all are moving their militaries towards Israel, and 2) would be pressured and scared.

Once again, not saying I believe it was the right thing....but I cannot let myself say what was considering what pressures and fears they had to deal with.

Also, just as a small point that is mostly irrelevant - If Israel moves its troops north, that does not mean much. They don't exactly have much land to move them around in.
From CIA.Gov
20,770 sq km = Israel's total area - slightly smaller than the state of New Jersey
185,180 sq km = Syria's total area
437,072 sq km = Iraq's total area
1,001,450 sq km = Egypt's total area

From what I read (which can easily be wrong considering I am utterly exhausted) it seems like you consider Israeli military movements north to be aggressive. PLEASE tell me if that is right or wrong. If I was right, then the above applies, if I was wrong, ignore it :p

[Matra et Alpine]

Cdoc, I liked your posts.

They sound the same as the current machinations of the British and US governments. "intellignece" .. "aggression" ... etc etc.

I only suggested you should view the actions from teh other side.
I didn't bring up every detail as it was unecessary :D

[CdocZ]

Cdoc, I liked your posts.

They sound the same as the current machinations of the British and US governments. "intellignece" .. "aggression" ... etc etc.

I only suggested you should view the actions from teh other side.
I didn't bring up every detail as it was unecessary :D

I did do my best to view it from both sides. However, I have never seen much info from Egypt from this time period, heh. So, I just went with what I had. Show me something and I will gladly look at it and take it into account.