Can ford match the unbelievable HRT 427?

[holdenluvr]

i think they could...only if the make a 450kW GTHO that could put the HRT 427 to shame.......

[fpv_gtho]

why would they need that much, the hrt 427 only has 350kw

[holdenluvr]

no it has 430kW...........

[fpv_gtho]

the concept may have had that but the 50 being produced for road are only 350kw

[holdenluvr]

oh ok............

[fpv_gtho]

i doubt this car will be the competitor to the posche GT2 that holden wants us to believe. it doesnt look as if it could go around the corners and stop as good as the gt2. i think that holden were kidding themselves trying to match the gt2 to begin with

[BaRRa]

Originally posted by fpv_gtho
i doubt this car will be the competitor to the posche GT2 that holden wants us to believe. it doesnt look as if it could go around the corners and stop as good as the gt2. i think that holden were kidding themselves trying to match the gt2 to begin with

Judging by thet stats, there is every chance that the HRT 427 will be as quick or even quicker around a race track than the 911 GT2. In Motor magazine, they stated that HSV insiders have been saying the C5R engine, in street-spec, has been dynoed at over 400kW. This, combined with the stripped out interior, lightweight components, new front suspension and huge brakes will make the 427 an extremely fast car.

However, compared to the 427 the GT2 is almost a luxury car. The 427 is virtually a street legal racer.

As for Ford building a 427 competitor, I believe they could. I also think that they won't. A GTHO (to compete in performance and in sales with the HSV GTS) would be far higher on FPV's priority list. Ford also has the Territory to work on.

[crisis]

The Territory? Theres an original idea. May as well take the bus. I suppose if its good enought for BMW Mercedes, Volvo, Porsche, VW, Audi etc etc you may as well jump on the band wagon. I own a 4wd for one reason. Going offroad. Thats where they are fun to drive. You dont need 200kw motors, independent suspension and 50 profile tyres for that. A bit of ground clearance and a diff lock will do just fine. A good audio system and a portable fridge in the back to keep the beer cold is the only luxury items youll need.

[fpv_gtho]

yeah well ur maybe one of the last people that still think that.

[motorhead]

holden hsv hrt 427 - this is one of the very few masterpieces which have actually rolled out the production line in australia and what a masterpiece - acceleration is about 3.7sec - which aussie does an accleleration is 3.7 secongs and that awesome looks - GT2 rival - i don't think so - the gt2 has been an icon and it has that raw edge which the holden does not quite have and its a porsche so maybe not this time holden

[fpv_gtho]

ha, another stillborn supercar from holden, just like the torana gtr-x. and u can thank all those people who wanted to take these on the road and not the track, either way i dont care. i wouldnt have bought it for 2 reasons anyway:1. id rather a ford and 2. even at 215,000 for a car designed for track, it may be good value against a 400,000 porsche, but against all the rest of the aussie muscle cars? ripoff

[BaRRa]

lol, I was cheering when I heard that the 427 was no more. I feel so bad about how happy I was. :confused:

[crisis]

Takes the pressure of Ford I suppose.

[fpv_gtho]

the pressure was never on ford, especially since they have the 500hp supercharged 5.4 at their disposal from america

[crisis]

Anyone can whack a supercharger on.

[fpv_gtho]

yeah well its safer than boring out a small block alluminium alloy engine to the shithouse

[crisis]

Or cobbling bits and pieces of other motors into OHC wonder engines that still cant produce as much power or even rev as hard an old pushrod Chev clunker.

[fpv_gtho]

yeah well how much power do u think the standard 3 valve ford v8 would have if they gave it the same 6000rpm limit as the gt and xr8. the most powerful locally tuned gen3 is only 260kw so there nothing to brag about, especially when ford make their smaller BOSS V8 turn out 45nm more and 30kw more.

[crisis]

You would hope there was some advantage to OHC. The standard Gen3 still revs harder than the new Ford V8. If ford limit it it must be for a reason.

[fpv_gtho]

if the 3 valve engine was doing the same revs as the xr8, it would be makeing about 10kw/15nm less. thats 250kw and 485nm for $40K

[crisis]

Originally posted by fpv_gtho
if the 3 valve engine was doing the same revs as the xr8, it would be makeing about 10kw/15nm less. thats 250kw and 485nm for $40K
Conjecture.

[fpv_gtho]

id u dont believe me, have a look at the odl 4.0L tickford VCT engine to the DOHC VCT engine standard in every falcon/fairlane except G220/LTD:

172kw vs 182kw
SOHV vs DOHC
2 valve vs 4 valve
374nm vs 380nm

thats all with the addition of another cam and a better VCT system. when u take into account the extra valve per cylinder of the barra v8 and the extra displacement and cylinders, its about what i said

[Nildo]

Most of the increased power is down to the improved VCT like fpv says. And as crisis states, there is a reason why the Ford motor does not rev hard. If you look at the dimensions the stroke in the ford V8 is about 105.8mm. This is HUGE. This is why even though it is smaller than Holdens chevvy 5.7 it still produces more torque.

It is actually bad news in some ways though. As you state it wont rev far, meaning power is restricted in an ultimate sense. This negates some of the advantages of an OHC motor in the first place, and is why ford, if they want much more power, must look at forced induction (supercharging) rather than increasing power NA. In fact in simple terms ford could probably make more power in the end if they de-stroked the motor and reduced capacity to 5 litres or so.

In the end if ford did choose to compete with the Holden 427 then they would just have to use their own 427 ci motor.

[fpv_gtho]

all u said about restricting the revs on the v8 is true for the gt and xr8, but for the standard v8, its restricted to 5250 revs to keep it at 220kw, the american version of the engine in stock is making about 225kw/495nm

[Nildo]

Having the standard V8 5.4 rev past 5250 is pointless anyway, as it is a single cam motor and does not feature the cam phasing which is present on the XR8 and GT multicam versions meaning that power would not increase as the torque falls too fast over 5000 revs.

[fpv_gtho]

what makes u so sure of that

[fpv_gtho]

have a look at the old tickford vct I6 compared to the new barra 182. ford spent $5mill upgrading that engine and all it got was 6nm more and 10kw, from an extra camshaft and a vct system that was variable, not a 2 stage system. are u trying to say, that the differences between a sohc 5.4 v8 doing 6000rpm and the xr8 motor would not reflect what i just said. both the old tickford vct I6 and barra 182 are near there factory potential in tuning terms, so u cant say that the old motor was higher strung and the new motor hasnt shown is true glory yet, why do u reckon ford came out with a turbo xr6 rather than something like a 200kw N/A upgraded xr6

[Nildo]

I dont quite get what you mean, but here goes...

The difference between single and twin cam variants of any motor are not huge intinsically. Rather engineers need to take advantage of those features in specific ways. The XR6 vct was an engine that was developed over many years and was tuned much harder than todays barra twin cam 6. In time the current motor will be worked on with better valve timing, improved gas flow etc and will increase in power. This is simply a matter of developers getting to grips with this motor.

As far as the V8 goes, are you aware that the XR8 and especially GT V8's vary markedly in terms of engine internals from the standard single cam V8? The GT particularly features stronger pistons, rods, gudgeons etc. Why? Because the stroke in the engine is akwardly long, meaning that if the motor revved past a particular point the engine would suffer damage. So ford tuned the engine for higher revs but then placed heavy duty internals in the engine so it could withstand the pressures placed on it.

The power gap between single and twin cam 8's exists not only due to the better flow characteristics of a twin cam motor, but also due to the improved ability to rev. However (look at the torque curves and you will see what I mean) the SOHC versions power development would not increase in a linear fashion even if it could rev past 5250, meaning peak power would not be greater than 220 kw anyway.

[fpv_gtho]

i heard a rumour than the next gen mustang's gunna use a 300kw versioin of basically the 3rd generation 302 V8 and a supercharged 4.6L good for 320kw. how strong do u think the torque figures would be for the 5.0L?

[Nildo]

Depends on how far it revs. I would guess a little less than the XR8 for the 302, maybe 475 nm, and a little more for the supercharger (but that depends on the type they use) around 500-520 nm.

[fpv_gtho]

the current 290kw 4.6 has about 530nm

[fpv_gtho]

and the 2001 mustang svt cobra that we get makes 435nm, same as an AU3 XR8, so thats a clue to how much more a new 302 would make, do u reckon theyre gunna keep the same 4942cc displacement? cause the new ones gunna have a pretty square bore/stroke compared to the old 302's oversquare dimensions ov about 101.67mm bore/76mm stroke

[Falcon500]

isnt it a fact that holden officaly canned the 427 project? just asking its was in the july issue street machine and they claimed it wasnt finacily viable to make any less then 100 but also said that making anymore then 50 would ruin how exclusive the vehical would of been

[Falcon500]

sorry i responded without reading the thread first you lot alredy mentioned it i feel thick now :(

[fpv_gtho]

it pays to read more than just the title of the thread

[fpv_gtho]

what do u reckon hsv's gunna pull out this year at sydney? they got the embarrassment of canning this so theyre gunna be working on a showstopper, but the production territory's gunna be there so its gunna have competition.

[crisis]

The production Territory is unlikely to upstage much out of HSV. Different audience. Unless they opt for a HSV Adventra. They may as well. Its all its good for. Dont be surprised to see a toned down version of the HRT. Plenty of developement went into it and it would make sense for some of that to trickle down to their production models.

[fpv_gtho]

yeah hsv said when they announced the cancelation of the 427c, that the development that went into it would be passed onto normal hsv models. i think holden actually said that an hsv version of the adventra was expected, but what would they do with it? as much as holden wants, its not gunna be a sports model, but hsv did make a versino of the jackaroo at one stage

[crisis]

The Jackaroo was not much of a HSV. One of my mates has one. A bit of an exhaust system, mags and stickers. A HSV Adventra with a V8 would be "sporty". Im not sure what you mean.

[fpv_gtho]

it just seems to me that lately holdens been trying to sell all their products as sports cars, and the adventras something that looks like its gunna struggle to fit that marketting scheme. hsv if they wanted to could probably make most cars sporty, but i think the basic design of the car, being a wagon, will be a major let down, as well as the increased ride height, unless hsv plan to make the car ride like a normal wagon

[crisis]

Look at a BMW X5. That and most of that type of soft roader are purely intended as psuedo sports wagons. I agree that Holden are definitely taking that course with the cars now. First the Caprice and now the Calais. I suppose the success of HSV has told them this is where their popularity is. I did read somewhere a while back that the intention was for HSV to move further up market (price) and leave Holden and HBD to run with the Club Sport type of vehicles. I like the idea. This is where the fun is.

[fpv_gtho]

yeah it seems that way, especially with the series 2 ss at 245kw

[fpv_gtho]

but hsv's success could be put down to the need for high performance australian cars, with no serious offering from ford until now. the only serious performance cars ford have brought out over the years have been limited edition, like the xr8 sprint, el2 xr8, 25th anniversary gt and 30th anniversary gt

[crisis]

Exactly right. Ford left Holden a huge openeing and Holden took advantage of it. There will always be Holden and Ford fans who will buy whatever both manufacturers serve up. Even at their worst they both make pretty good value domestic cars for the masses. I think Holden have realised that they have had success from their performance and psuedo performance areas and it all flows down and affects the overall image and how people percieve their cars on the whole. A Calais is not ever going to win a person who buys a BMW or Merc. Both of those have a snob appeal that a domestic car maker wont change. What Ford and Holden can do is offer a car with better performance, competative handling and all the fruit at a much better price. If they have the grunt , why not play on the "sports" aspect?

[fpv_gtho]

id like to see whether hsv's sales are slipping as a result of fpv coming out. i think fpv's already sold more cars than what fte did

[crisis]

HSV still offer a wider range to capture the market. I personally have seen more Club sports and GTS's than GTs. Dont like the stripes on the GTs or some of the more pale colours. The bonnet bulge does nothing to enhance the lines of the BA which are quite clean in original form.

[fpv_gtho]

well u cant expect a 6 month old company to have the sales of a 15 year old company. surprisingly, about 60-70 percent of white gt's have the blue stripes. the stripe package i guess is just a love or hate option. if i bought an fpv, id get either a blueprint, blood orange with stripes or acid rush with stripes. i dont really like citric acid

[crisis]

Your right. FPV need to take it slowly and expand their range carefully to suit demand. They cannot afford to make costly mistakes or Ford may lose their nerve. Eventually I would imagine Ford to offer a similar type of range as HSV.

[fpv_gtho]

thats what ford are trying to do with fpv, but their (fpv) range isnt diverse enough yet. ford said they dont want to stick to tuning v8's though, which will take them a different direction than hsv.

[Dr freedom]

I would go the white with blue stripes.
Give me that Cobra/power feeling any day!

[fpv_gtho]

the september wheels magazine has i think a 3 page special on why this car was cancelled. the funny thing was, those 50 buyers were prepared to pay the increased price that wouldve been asked if developmetn ws to continue

[crisis]

Thats not what the article says. It quotes one prospective buyer as saying he may have paid more. No one was actually asked and Wheels magazine postulated that if they were asked they may have coughed up. 100 large is a lot "extra" come up with. The intersting thing for Holden fans is the comment from Holden that they intended to use some of the technology in other models and that the idea behind a "super" Monaro was not dead and buried. They intend to do something with the idea.

[fpv_gtho]

they said something like hsv knows that most of the buyers were prepared to pay that much extra for what the car was

[fpv_gtho]

heres an idea. why dont ford australia have a concept falcon with either the saleen S7 or S7R engine. sounds pretty impractible i know, but its the same philosophy that got the HRT 427C off the ground. the only problem i see is makin room for the engine intake

[Falcon500]

Well iots a neat idea but whats stopping it from suffering the same fate? And also on that note what will become of the cars that are competing they draw in crouds but one of the rules in nations cup is they must have a road going version and can only modify weaknesses at the monment the car is listed as a 300kw coupe so that would mean everything except the glass is a weakness on the car.

[fpv_gtho]

well i guess HSV made the mistake of assuming 80% of the potential buyers of the HTR 427C would use them for track, like in a one make series, but it was more like 80% who wanted them for road, which is why extra development had to be put in which bumped up the estimated proces considerably. if HSV had the same chance, theyd cover their tracks better and wouldnt make the same mistake, same if ford tried to put their top motorsport engine into the falcon, which at the moment is the S7R engine

[Falcon500]

Well why not use the SVO 600 cube block? Saban Demaj has used one for many seasons pumpinmg nitrous oxide through it and is thinking of bolting twin turbos on it! i think you could easily make a revised track edition if they wanted.

[fpv_gtho]

where do they use that engine?

[Falcon500]

its more of a specialised engine mostly drag racers use it but with 600 cubes you wont be lacking in any area itll have boot oads of tourqe and hp.

[fpv_gtho]

and fuel consumption which means its impractible

[Falcon500]

and you call the 427 maonro motor comming in every 25 laps practical? It wouldent be much worse and it would pull like gangbusters.

[fpv_gtho]

yeah but gettin fuel consumption down to a respectable level for the 427 was part of the road use development aspect. id say that any 600cu. in. motor would use a shitload of fuel anyway, one used for drag use would be worse. a v8 supercar uses over 60l/100km so thats a clue to how much power would be lost getting it around 20L/100km

[crisis]

Theres not too much practical about a twin turbo charged engine with nitrous.

[fpv_gtho]

then you realise its a 600cu. in. engine, which is about 10L

[Falcon500]

Yes that is true crisis BUT thats what the demaj brothers done to it it origonally came to them running off petrol and they have been using a nos shot to be more specific and now they are putting turbos it came to them running off petrol and they drive it there and back and also their is a dude with a fairlane 76 i think the model is and he drives it often so dont under estimate this motor this car (with an automatic mind you and the motor as he orderd it) came third in the queansland muscle car shoot out! His oppisition was some seasond group NC cars that are set up for racing

[fpv_gtho]

its fairly common for drag cars to have autos fitted. most of them have so much power and torque id say ud need both legs to engage the clutch in order to shift quicker than an auto

[Falcon500]

The queasnalnd mucle car shoot out is not a drag race its a race around queansland race way! hence the signifigance of him beating some season group NC cars.

[fpv_gtho]

well sorrreee, i was goin on u sayin b4 that the svo 600 is used mainly in drag cars

[Falcon500]

My fault really i assumed the qeansland muscle car shoot out ment somthing and that the group Nc cars would give it away but there are a few and some are in drag cars some are track raced and some are just driven (wich i find strange all considering the rarity and expense of the motor of course its americans who are doing that) it has potential thats all im saying dont close off all ideas there are some other options out there that are effective and a also more likly to be used.

[fpv_gtho]

any engine can have potential, it just depends i guess on the amount of money someones prepared to put in it, just this particular engine has a good start with its huge capacity. just have a look at how far svo got the 302, pumping out 460kw and 623nm torque in race trim, although the capacity;s bumped up to 305cu. in. . its amazing though how people have said that the boss290 doing 6000rpm experiences the same stresses as a 302 doing 8000rpm, where a v8supercar redlines at 7500prm, and if uve heard just the engine note from them, u wonder what tricks fords doing to keep the boss so tame at redline

[250CROSSFLOW]

Once again i would like to make a point that every time Ford Australia come up with anything fast or slightly better than Holdens Cars, Holden have to go and get an engine of Chevy.

427??? Hardly a Holden motor.

[fpv_gtho]

its based on a motor holden use though

[Falcon500]

well you both are right to a point its is based how ever loosely on holdens motor but it is built by chevrolet and its motor sport devision. But also on that note how about holdens new HSV 285 Kw hoe does thast stack up to the GT?

[fpv_gtho]

its got as much holden in it as the callaway c4b motor does then. i think hsv wouldve been better trying to improve the low to midrange response of the gen3 rather then just extend its top end power and torque, although ive heard its got slightly more guts than the 260kw versions. its pretty ridiculous the factory claims for acceleration though, hsv now claim 5.3 0-100km/h, which is far from modest, where ford claim 6.2 for the xr6t, which most people get without trouble

[Falcon500]

I always had some edge of difficutly believing some of hsvs statistics even back to when i was a little fella. My old man says that most of the HSVs have been mostly wank and hype and they were often reduced to nothing by his GT (XW) though this new bread seems to beat it fairly convincingly.

[fpv_gtho]

well maybe its cause of the launch, the new hsv's would walk all over an XW when it comes to launching. factor in tractino control, better lsd's, better engine tuning for lower revs etc. and you know what i mean

[Nildo]

Most HSV's, up until the very late 90's WERE just wank and hype. Back then Jap cars blew the crap out of anything Australian (of the same year). Ever since HSV began to raid the US parts bin their cars have been much more competitive. I don't like the fact that Holden markets itself as an Aussie car company, with all the imported gear they use, but it certainly has pushed to local car manufacturers to make far more competitive products compared to the global opposition. Ford has also begun to really try much harder, producing the excellent BA range.

[Falcon500]

well that could help fpv the cars also have fuel injection which picks up faster then a carby in general and traction controll and so on and so forth of course if we wanted too it wouldent cost us very much at all to keep up :) i dont know about blew the crap out of it was usually the higest performance models and they were a bit quicker (2-3 tenths of a second in general from my own research i could be wrong) but yeah with ford prducing the BA (which i must admit i got bitten by a XR6 tubor ute the other day it was a flash car) it hopefully will get holdens arse into gear in improving their current model.

[fpv_gtho]

the BA's only as good as it is becuase of the effort ford put in to keep producing cars locally in australia. the au ws such a sales disaster, if the BA had failed, detroit wouldve told geoff polites to pack up and leave

[Falcon500]

the story was if the BA failed they would of packed up our laarge car sector and reoplaced it with imported models (crwon vics and mustangs) so i wasnt that said because in my opion either way we won.

[fpv_gtho]

we wouldve lost big time if we got stuck with the crown victoria. not only is the build quality pretty shit but it only comes with 220hp and 230hp v8's. the mustangs not much better, and the base mustang's come with the Buick 3.8L V6

[Falcon500]

ummm i serously doubt a ford product would come out with a GM product especcially when the mustang item is an all alloy quad cam v6 and the buick one is basicly the same as holden are using. and there is also the fact a normal cobra (the model we get) can still outrun a GT and it only has 240kw coupled with its better handeling. And figures speak for them selves the mustang is americas 6th biggest selling car out of literly hundreds it killed the camro/firebird the only cars in its class by outselling them 4/1 and they cant be so bad i talk to a lot of americans many owners of current bodystyle mustangs and very rarely have they a complaint about them. But thats all pie in the sky sort of stuff we have the BA and ford australia is selling its sedan very sucsefully.

[fpv_gtho]

the mustang, camaro, firebird and commodore all come out standard with a 3.8L, 200hp, ohv all iron v6. the only quad cam v6's ford use are 2.5L and 3.0L duratec's, and theyre thinking of making a 3.5L for the futura. remember how badly the taurus sold in australia? well it sells pretty good in its class in america, same scenario with the mustang. americans dont complain about the mustang cause for its crap quality, it has a relatively cheap retail price compared to higher quality stuff. the '99 model svt cobra we get is the fastest model in ford oz's current linup, because its a good 200-300kg lighter than the gt and willing enough to rev to almost 7000rpm. american sales figures cant predict sales in australia, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. for example, ford americas biggest seller is a truck, the f-150, britains is i think the focus, and our biggest selling ford is the falcon. all 3 cars are for different lifestyles, different types of people.

[Falcon500]

Well the mustang is dominating its class in american and the imported ones despite their nearly 90k price tag are selling fairly well(think how well they will sell when they are comming here in absolute droves) the reason why poms dont get v8s is because of pullution laws, the price of fuel, and the rego that partialy relies on engine capacity. the F-150s are selling so well because its all thr rage over there to won a 4 wheel drive. But also on that note the mustang would be the most interchageable car between both our society all considering both our countrys prefer v8s (sport models) both of our countrys have relativly cheap fuel (we are somthing like 3rd or 4th cheapest) and the fact that mustang have been craved here ever since they were introuduced. And also its so called crap quality is not as bad as you make it sound its not much worse off then either a falcon or a commadre dont forget our cars also have flaws too. though you are righr about the v6 eagle sapres (vic) is telling bs by the looks of it

[fpv_gtho]

ford have taken a giant leap forward with the quality of the BA though, and its only a mid cycle model. i think the mustang has the buick motor, or something technically identical, to keep costs as down as possible in a base model, as the 3.0L duratec has slightly more power i think or close to the same, but lacks torque, which would be why they want to produce a 3.5L version for the futura. i wouldnt mind a 4.0L version for the falcon though, but i dunno how enthusiasts would go about straying from the aussie straight six. at $85K for the cobra coupe, it seems fairly well placed against the gts coupe, but the americans only enhance the mechanical package, not the interior like we do. something must be wrong with the first generation vipers interior though, if the rhd conversion enhances its quality

[Falcon500]

I cant say id be to thrilled to get rid of the straight 6 motor ford australia has put a little too much work into it to warrent getting rid of it and tuners are proving that there is a lot that can be done with the motor even though there are advantages in using a v6 one of them being balance and les concetraed weight on the front end and stuff but this motor as i stated above is proviing very tunable its looking more tunable the the nissan straight 6!the mustang motor has 190 hp i didnt bother cheaking out tourque.
Uhhhh well the first generation is long gone if we are getting them now hteyll be aftermarket jobs and there was the fact the first gen viepr had no creature comforts whatso ever it consisted of racing seats and tachos and little else not very hard to improve on. And as i said before the major people who would be winging about the interior of american cars would be wheels they winge like a bus load of pom on a wet holiday! Their job is to winge (or so it seems) so their idea of shit interior is very supportive racing like buckets coverd in leather and a largish also leather clad stearing wheel with gauges and so on tighly packed together that even tell you the tyer pressure (an option on most cars nowdays but standard on a lot of american cars) Ill glady take their idea of shit any day trust me mate next chance you get take a closer look have a sit if you can they aint bad.

[fpv_gtho]

wheels definately rather cruising along the great ocean road in victoria in a luxury packed M3 rather than belting it down the stuart highway in something creature comfortless like a lotus elise though, thats for sure, but from the pictures ive seen of mustang and viper interiors, its not the simplicity of it all that makes it look crap to me, the fact that they have the whole interior 1 colour that does it. if they made it all black or something, i wouldnt be complaining, but more often then not, its a pale grey or something similare that makes it look too early 90's. something else strange ive noticed from a couple of american interiors is, they all seem to have the handbrake on the far right hand side of the centre console, which seems out of place to me, especially in cars like the viper and ford gt with a fat centre console

[Falcon500]

Whels compared to wheels i rough it everytime i get in a car. Ywah im not a fan of where the handbrakes are worse still the gear sticks on manual coervettes its a bit of a reach you but thats one of the prices you pay for a converted car. But im assuiming youd never own one so that that problem fixed. Anjd dont talk to me about one coulour Im dreamiong about a gt replica all the have ios black with wood trims being the only real cghanges.

[fpv_gtho]

well replica gt40's, theyre a different story, i havent got any complaints about them yet, even then a plain black interior isnt as bad as plain, light grey. plus aussies are the best at making replica gt40's so i doubt we'd stick a crappy american interior in

[Falcon500]

Well no nones making them based on the origonal (interior wise) they have cd players and leather seats etc etc id prefer origonal style in that car but its just a preference thing. But the kiwiws are also making might fine kits also.

[fpv_gtho]

either way, the yanks obviously arent making ones to be too proud of, if we're making the best

[Falcon500]

Well ive heard that most people who make replicas dont make them completly accurate so they arnt talked about in very high regard. The worst one i head of was one in pommy land where they built one to use escort engine and drive line and stuff now thats is sad.

[fpv_gtho]

that is pretty sad, but if the replicas are as light as the real things, under a tonne, performance wouldnt be all that bad, better than a focus st170, but thats dependant on the engine still

[Falcon500]

Well im pretty sure they were using the old ford "Kent" engine the same donk they use in formula ford Though quite a nice engine to drive with (its a bit of a shit to work with not hard just irritating) and is quite tweakable i still would prefer to see v8s in them another sad thing is when people put chev engines in them that one is almost as sad as the "kent"
If people want a GT that was ment for a msaller engine why dont they build up a GT-70? It was only a concept but it had all the ingredients to be a good car it was built to use the ford v6 from the capri and the kent engine and it had fantastic areodynamics combined with a weight of 765 kilos. And i perosnly dont think their a bd looking car.

[fpv_gtho]

its really a love-it-or-hate-it design, and im not too fond of it to be honest. but a shelby 289 in a replica gt40 would still go alright, 306hp in something under a tonne would fly faster than an hsv gts

[Falcon500]

Well first time i saw the car i was about your age flicking through old british motorsport mags where i saw it and didnt like it it sort of grows on you (way i found it) Hell the kits i was seeing about a few years ago they had a 240kw 302 windsor (same as the EL tof the time though fairly well tweaked) and they went very well.

[fpv_gtho]

i might've read somewhere that ford wanted to use the gt70 as a rally car, but i seriously doubt it

[Falcon500]

well anythings possible it would of had a great power to weight and good aero. I also went to a cobra show at wakefield park they were running them on the track one of the GT40s there managed a 1:17 where the bobras got around 1:21 there were quite a few that were faster but we didnt get a chance to time them and then there was a skyline GT-R that manged a 1:27. It was actually wuite a good day despite the rain when i get the photos developed ill post them on the room.

[fpv_gtho]

i think it was the mk3 gt40 that had the 500hp 427 v8, that would be a blast to drive around a track. i went for a drive in my dads m3 on friday and the car's nothing like what you'd expect. it would really have to be on a track to take full advantage of its power, it feels like a normal 6 cylinder on the road, which i wouldnt want if i paid $140K for a new one, but my dads is a 96 model

[Falcon500]

Well this one was a small block windsor with a single 4 barrel holley and it was the fastest car on the day! It also ahd all the creature comforst of full leather interior CD player and so on (apprentrly it used to have a tv in it) it was a fairly dangerour car he had to put lips about the top of the door to stop them from lifting and then opening when he reaches speeds of 270 km/h+.
Well 96 is still fairly new o bet they go hard i just plain dont like em.

[fpv_gtho]

the cars got less torque than a dohc 4.0L falcon engine, so its got no balls. apparently, when ford america were developing the new gt, they stuck an old one in the wind tunnel to compare aerodynamics, and at about 300km/h, the engineers were just laughin at how bad the front end aerodynamics were, so they paid particular attention to them when reengineering them for the new gt, but the rear aerodynamics were pretty good. id hate to have the front of a big block gt come flying up at 340km/h at lemans

[Falcon500]

Well they were great cars though lacking in balence in the 427 model.I think the braver people are the ones who were in the big block cobras no roof no blanence and no weight they swapped ends and if they ended up on their lig their isnt much between you and death they were still cool cars.

[fpv_gtho]

theyre worth a pretty penny, thats for sure

[Falcon500]

half a mill american wuith noi previous racing history! replicas cobra 30k+ GT40 40k+.They put craig lowndes in a GT40 to do a burn (genuine) and he was lapping almost as fast as a v8 xupercar (cant trebmer the track)

[fpv_gtho]

he shouldve easily been able to lap faster than a v8 supercar. put ambrose behind the wheel and see the times fall

[Falcon500]

He could of though he was issued with the threat stack it and youll never be out of debt! a cool million the car was worth

[fpv_gtho]

well i think he wouldve been able to come up with the money. he lives on a farm with tonnes of horses doesnt he

[Falcon500]

that horse thiong is a hobby it can make him a lot but its his past time driving as fun as it would be the stuff in between makes it just like any job good parts and bad parts with all the stuff in between the races the reviews the brifings and debreifings and tv apprencaes and dealing with people you dont know who think the world of you and so on itll grate on a person. He could come up with the money bu i think hed rather have the million the car is worth in his pocket and cut ordinaery times on a story for RPM

[pato]

i have sat in one of the 2 HRT 427s that exist while on work experiance at HSV - pity they didnt make them

the official word i got is while they wont produce that particular car u may see elements from it in other cars soon

id like to see a similar concept from ford - they seriously need a two door!

[fpv_gtho]

ford's main concern is they want to sell all the factory rhd mustangs in australia that they imported before dedicating themselves to a coupe. there wont be a coupe released before the 2006 falcon, and the 2008 falcon could see a 30th anniversary cobra, although ford said that they wouldnt give in to public demand and produce more than the original 400.

from what i heard, all the development that went into the 427C, hsv will try and put that into their mainstream models, similar to what you said. if ford want to make a 21st century GTHO, they'll pull out all the stops and make a show stopper for sure

[pato]

well i hope they do then they can try and compete with the 427ci monaros in the nations cup

[fpv_gtho]

the nations cup monaros are about 1500kg and 460kw/780nm. a new gtho would most likely be 1850kg and use the 500hp/ 500ft/lb supercharged, alluminium block 5.4 which produces 372kw and 678nm. if that can compete with a race spec 427 monaro, good luck to ford

[pato]

hopefuilly they can make a juiced up race version

[fpv_gtho]

its a bit harder for nations cup to produce a race special. procar twice a year list the eligible cars for entry to try and stop manufacturers repeating what happened in the early 70's and from my understanding, it would have to be a road registerable model to start with, and the idea of a race special doesnt go with road registerable in my mind

[pato]

well how did the monaro get in then?
it started as a standard car and they built it up for nations cup

[fpv_gtho]

im pretty sure the class its in has a couple of loopholes for prototype cars to enter, but holden originally entered the 427 when they were developing the hrt 427. either way, ford has better things to do than make a new gt just for the sake of nations cup. its already successfully running te50's and gt's in gt-p anyway

[pato]

successful? which car wins every race? the big yellow MONARO

[Falcon500]

sucsessful ha your a funny bloke! Do you actually whatch the race or what? it has only won one round this year john bowe has won like three and paul stokell has won the reamaing races and brocky has only been on the podium twice hell even greg crick is performing slighly better then nathan pretty in his so called big yellow monaro that wins every race.
and fpv road regiterble worked for the ATCC in 65 through to 72 it kept the racing fair and limited modifcation our salesman won his class (A i think it was the small 4 banger class) in bathurst and came 3rd the year before.

[pato]

who won the nations cup bathurst 24-hour last year mate? who won the one that counts? the BIG YELLOW MONARO

[fpv_gtho]

well when i was talking about road registerable falcon500, i was kinda hinting at the trouble of geting a supercharged, 500kw falcon on the road, cause thats how powerful it would have to be to have a chance against the nations cup monaros. road registrable in 65-72 was before the supercar scare so manufacturers didnt have much to worry about, so thers little doubt it would of worked then. but after 72, everyones been that cautios it isnt funny. ford has only just been game to make a 290kw falcon, and if they went all out and made a 372kw gtho and 500kw race gtho just for the sake of giving the yella monaro some local conpetition, the government would strap on mandatory 200km/h speed limiters. and i dunno if you noticed pato, but last years bathurst 24hr, a te50 won the production category and still finished in the outright top 10. its a pretty big achievement considering the array of vipers, diablos and ferraris that contested the race, even though some people like john bowe were unlucky and didnt finish. its the championship that counts anyway. a team might get lucky and win the 24hr race, but if theyre not consistent throughout the year they 24hr win may only earn them a mediocre place in the championship.

[Falcon500]

Well itll be funny if they didnt win all considering its a C5 corvette under its skin the only bit thats austrlain is the gear box built by peter hollinger! and it even has a ford diff! and somthing they should penalise it for in this race is it has no road going equivlient the idea behind nations cup is to work on the cars weakensses by improving on them and the way i see it is that the entier ****ing car must of been a weakness if they had to make it completly differnt.
what an advertising campagin

[fpv_gtho]

id like to punch the guy that forgot to read the rule book when he decided to let the monaro in with its 10 page list of modifications out of the factory

[Falcon500]

Well if their is any justice itll be penilised for having no road going equvilent but on that ntoe the car has brought an certain intrest in the catigory so its a double edged sword. I think the catigory will suffer if it goes but i think its solid fan base (people who liked the class before the car rocked up) will be happier read what the people think about it in the procar forum its utterly savage!

[fpv_gtho]

well i think the introductino of the bathurst 24hr has given the categories alot more publicity, but its the same issue as it was with hrt's ownership scandal. someone said that if hrt got kicked out of the competition, crowd attendances would fall dramaticall and someone answered it sayin "hrt brings in the crownds so now they can break the rules". in the end they just have to stick to the rules otherwise people will be forever finding ways to bribe their way into staying

[Falcon500]

Well done Juge FPV you brought down the hammer and brought forth some indiscrianate justice there :cool: I cant actually think of an answer for that comment but on that note take out HRT and it will take out a competaive team to fill its space it would of been intersting if the TWR group (HRT,Brock,K-mart) pulled out!

[fpv_gtho]

well hrt said after everything was cleared up that they had plans to make an ownership deal with skaife, but thet sure left it to the last bloody minute to finalise it all.

[Falcon500]

Maybey they left it till the last minute to see if they could get away with it?

[fpv_gtho]

well thats not really a smart idea. they tried to get away with not telling TEGA about the deal and that backfired, if they had tried that again and left it till the last minute, the deal couldve been thrown back at them with no time left

[pato]

i nearly met skaife u know, he was at hsv when i was there but i was in a different part of the campus when he was there - i met his PA though....

do u think HRT will use the new aurora engine or the old holden motorsport engine for bathurst?

[fpv_gtho]

i think hes gunna replace the chev 18 degree motor with the holden motorsport engine. for an update on sports tonight they were saying something about skaifes bathurst gamble so hes taking a risk obviously, and not many of the holden teams have been able to get their heads around the new engine and chassis, thats why skaifes been putting his switch to them off as much as possible

[fpv_gtho]

one of my teachers at school's met brock, he reckoned he was a dickhead. the only thing he agreed with him on is the best commodore to buy is the last one of a particualr series, like a VC instead of a VB, or VX instead of a VT. one of my mums friends has a mate thats in the rodeo adds, the bald bloke. the same friend of my mums has a friend of a friend that participates in the konica series. the guy says that hes met some of the regulare drivers and reckons that theyre that small he wouldnt think twice about taking one on in a fight. he mustve met max wilson then

[pato]

they are pretty small cause they all come through karts (and u need to be light) but they are really fit and strong, they spend their time off in the gym cause its really strenuos driving

[Falcon500]

Ive met skaife didnt think much of him crosssed his path while he and jason bright were making an exit on a golf kart he roused on me.
I met brock he wasnt very responive but i had to felt sorry for my mate all happy to see brock and he basicly snubbed him he also has a painted on smile for the camera which leave his face when the cameras off him and then he gos back to not looking too happy but i got what i wanted out of him a signed stubby holder (brock of course) and the champaign bottle he had a few drinks from (also singed)
Ive met marus ambrose i thought he wouldent be too happy but he was all smiles and shaking hands he actualy seemd to enjoy the public signings and he was going to sign my mates cast (same mate again incidently my 6'3" mate and he had to admit he was friendly bloke). Met seton very nice and it really makes me sad i dint get his squiggle :( and paul radasich not too friendly also.
And also seems morky has hung up his helmet someone else is driving his car (v8 racing VS in the konica series) my grandfather (his uncle)said he was trying to do too much at once...
And as for the small comment i dont know about that they do tend to be small but some are huge steven Johnson a full 6'4" or somthing they are just like regular people big and small some friendly some not so. But they all are fit and all are considerd athleats.

[fpv_gtho]

was was gunna mention junior johnson was a pretty tall bugger, but u already did. most of them do come from things like formula ford, but people like junior johnson and ambrose, they participated in F3 before coming to v8's. im not really surprised that ambrose showed a different character to skaife and the rest. in the latest wheels theyve got a special on him, its got greg "pee wee" siddle, whos a renowned talent scout, saying the only person in the current field at the same standards as ambrose is skaife, and he went on to say that in his opinion ambrose is the better driver as hes more of a thinker and sharper focused. they also had ambrose saying that like he was only out there for the drive, and all the newfound publicity had yet to settle in with him

[Falcon500]

Id still pick skaife for a better driver hes going into his prime while amrborse still faily new to the catigoy is sitll learning as skaife said jim richards was the best driver in the catigory when he was 40! older doenst mean not better it means experiance and also if they keep at it they wont loose their reflex untill they stop.

[fpv_gtho]

well i think ambrose will turn into a better driver than skaife. as you said ambrose is still in like his "wonder years" and skaifes reaching his prime, yet the guy in the special on ambrose in the wheels magazine reckons theyre on par with each other. ambrose has started in v8's as well, whereas skaife was running around in skyline gtr's and such with jim richards at the start of his major career

[Falcon500]

Well skaife is at an advantage so man years more experiance and so on id probly get shot for saying this but whatching craig lowndes in the 00 motor sport car when it was running good was near unpassable he hardly ever made a mistake and can pull of some amazing overtaking manuvers and to back up that staemnet he has a bathurst victory and a few championships under his belt.

[fpv_gtho]

well i dont think even lowndes wouldve been able to hide the bad front tire wear of the AU supercar

[Falcon500]

Ambrose did although it was a huge efferot from everyone else involved but unfortuanlty it was all too late.

[fpv_gtho]

ambroses success at the moment lies in how well SBR are as a team. ive only really seen ambrose push the car right to the limit once this season and that was when he got pushed back to 3rd at queensland. brad jones and john bowe mustve had a good setup for last years bathurst if they rewrote all the lap records. even with the new models they're doubting they'll be broken

[Falcon500]

Noi was talking about the AU And that ambrose seemd to get his head around it. Well the previous record holder was a formula 5000 car many people were suprised they broke it last year.

[fpv_gtho]

well either way SBR actually work as a team, and people have said that they were the only ones to really get their head around the AU, even if it was half way through last year, no wonder they were quick to have 2 BA's lined up at albert park this year. i thought it was simon wills who held the lap record at bathurst before bowe did, either way, the v8's are about half an hour off breaking the completion record set by skaife/richards in the GTR's

[Falcon500]

Simons Will did hold it for a v8 supercar. Heres the funny thing a lot of teams have commented that AU and BA dats wenrt interchageable where SBR are saying it is:confused: Im thinking they had a very quick constant lap and not many pit stops for the skyline.

[fpv_gtho]

well i think the GTR's had a higher average speed then what the V8's did, but i dont quite get what your talking about with the AU to BA

[Falcon500]

Well some ford teams have said the change over from AU to BA was so big that the data is not interchageable between the cars the stones dont seem to think that.

[pato]

Originally posted by fpv_gtho
well i think ambrose will turn into a better driver than skaife. as you said ambrose is still in like his "wonder years" and skaifes reaching his prime, yet the guy in the special on ambrose in the wheels magazine reckons theyre on par with each other. ambrose has started in v8's as well, whereas skaife was running around in skyline gtr's and such with jim richards at the start of his major career

dont count skaife out yet - he has had a shit car all year and had a few dnf's and he is still in contention to win the whole thing - that says somthing

[fpv_gtho]

no ones ruling skaife out yet. falcon500 said skaife is probably reaching or in his prime, and id probably agree to that. all im saying is that since ambrose entered the atcc scene straight away in a v8supercar, and in his 3rd season is matching skaife, he has more potential. i can see both sides of the story sort off for the ford teams. the AU to BA is only a mid life update so surely theres some things interchangeable, but ford treated it like a whole new model under development and such they look nothing alike, plus project blueprint has screwed with the minds of the teams as well, with ford having to change their rear suspension

[Falcon500]

thats car hes using is far from shit and those dnfs could of happened to anyone he was the unlucky one who got the dodgy wheels and got a few bad stops in.

[fpv_gtho]

he also made the mistake at rnd 3 of changin to wet weather tyres, just to change back to slicks in a couple of laps later

[Falcon500]

That was a gamble he took because he had nothing to loose unfortuanly he found out he had minor positions to loose. Seton made the same mistake then also.

[fpv_gtho]

well i didnt see seton becoming one of 3 drivers to win 5 rounds in a row last year, so it would of been a more embarrassing moment for skaife.

[pato]

skaife has had a very poor year by his standards and will be back next year once the new engine is sorted and they have got over the project blueprint hicup. i have no doubt that he will win another championship and he probably has 5-7years of V* Supercars left, after that he'll retire but still come back for the enduro's and probably 24-hrs

[fpv_gtho]

i VY's became holdens acholles heel like the AU was to ford, so it may take more than a year to figure out, and considering skaife switched cars halfway through and hasnt decided yet to put the holden motorsport engine in his car, he may be crippled for longer than people like murphy and steven richards, but he may get lucky and be crippled for less. skaife could continue right into his 50's like brock if he wanted to, but he hasnt shown any interest in procar yet so i cant see him going around bathurst for his share of a 24hr race

[Falcon500]

I think skaife will atay in to 50s i cant see why he would retier any time soon even if he wasnt winning he could step down to the second car. Skaife ios most certianly rolling the dice with how hes chosing to do things i wonder if itll work out?

[pato]

Originally posted by fpv_gtho
i VY's became holdens acholles heel like the AU was to ford, so it may take more than a year to figure out, and considering skaife switched cars halfway through and hasnt decided yet to put the holden motorsport engine in his car, he may be crippled for longer than people like murphy and steven richards, but he may get lucky and be crippled for less. skaife could continue right into his 50's like brock if he wanted to, but he hasnt shown any interest in procar yet so i cant see him going around bathurst for his share of a 24hr race

mark is driving in this years 24hr in the second monaro

[fpv_gtho]

what are they replacing bargwarna for him or something? the monaro would be the only thing skaife would consider. at least bowe has some international flavour to his name now. too bad its ended with the sale of his 360GT

[Falcon500]

He migh be partnering crick in the dodge viper we could only hope.

[fpv_gtho]

i wouldnt be surprised to see him behind the wheel of an HSV GTS actually, with all this "total control" bullshit hes been preaching on their behalf

[Falcon500]

Nah bowe is a top level (for pro car driver) i would think hed be using one of the cars he used on nations cup one of which happens to be the crick viper.

[fpv_gtho]

bowe? i was talking about the possibility of skaife driving in the 24hr race

[Falcon500]

oh well you get that.:rolleyes: well if hes entering in it theyll make the biggest deal about it and my moneys on the mosler for the second year running i said itll do well and it came 2nd now they are experianced and have a second car.

[fpv_gtho]

out of interest what engine are the moslers running?

[Falcon500]

350 chev not so much like a gen III more like whast the weigart vecotor tubors used really goos block and about 500hp 6 speed sequnetial shift just over a ton in weight and what a slippery body its a player!

[fpv_gtho]

its funny how many people without realising still refer to the ls1 as a 350 chev, even though the capacity's dropped to 345cu. in.

[Falcon500]

Well it still is practically the same motor if you felt so inclined to you could put on a set of cast iron bowtie heads though it wouldent flow as good as the stock alloys and it wont have the pollution gear and all that shit either.

[fpv_gtho]

well there wouldnt be any benefits in that so nobody in their right mond would do it would they

[Falcon500]

Yeah thats why i used the example. The motor is very very old dates back to the 50s and there has been small changes roughlt every year since then.

[pato]

Originally posted by fpv_gtho
its funny how many people without realising still refer to the ls1 as a 350 chev, even though the capacity's dropped to 345cu. in.

its actually 347ci

[fpv_gtho]

its metric cappacity is 5665cc
convert that to imperial and you get:
1 inch = 2.54mm
1 cubic inch = 16.387067cc3

5665/16.387067=345cu in

[fpv_gtho]

better make that 1 inch = 2.54cm

[SHAKER]

He migh be partnering crick in the dodge viper we could only hope.
Well i remember bowey campined the 4.6 litre mustang in the gt perfomance catagory a few years back and actually won the round on its first outing, then he raced it in the 3 hour bathurst race and finished 2nd or 3rd, then he abondoned the car to race his ferari, why did he stop racing the stang?....i also remember seing a saleen supercharged stang race at the clipsal 500 in the nation cups series.....anyone got any info on what happened to that car?

[SHAKER]

by the way unlike holdens failed 427 monaro attempt , ford has actually released the gt40 with around 500 hp, it would be more than a match for the monaro.

[fpv_gtho]

the GT40 still can have problems, its all alluminium alloy construction although being lightweight, is 1/3 the strength of cast iron (approximately) and when the car does 500rpm more than the FPV GT, its having more stress on a weaker engine. there have been reports of conrods cracking coming from the states, but not enough for ford to issue an official press release about it.

regardless of this, every time an american magazine tests the GT40, its gets quicker. i believe ford were looking for a 1-60mph time of about 4.0 seconds, well the firsts tests came back about 3.8 and now people have gotten about 3.3. with a top speed of over 300km/h, thats an easy match for the more powerful, equally (almost) weighted monaro CV8 427

[SHAKER]

Or cobbling bits and pieces of other motors into OHC wonder engines that still cant produce as much power or even rev as hard an old pushrod Chev clunker.
I dont think holden should be to proud of there hosepower figures, a standard 4.0 litre ba engine has 182 kwatts which is actually more than what the supercharged holden 6 makes. The turbo 6 has 240kw and outruns the gen3 ss down the 1/4 mile despite having 2 less cylinders, and the the xr8 having 260 kwatt leaves the gen 3 in its wake with only 235 kwatts at there disposal, i mean how silly does it make holden look!

[fpv_gtho]

well those figures aren't quite correct anymore, all bar the statement about the 6's. holden brought out the VY2 with more changes than expected as they were as you said given a bad rap for being beaten by 6's. the 245kw SS though is faster than an XR6T and the XR8 and the VY2 clubby is faster than a GT, with all 3 cars being claimed easier to live with and more "the drivers car" which alot of ford fans are getting sick of hearing though.

engines alone though, ford are ahead in my opinion, with the bulk of the BA body holding them back. Getting 260kw practically standard compared to 225kw is something for ford to hold up high though, as well as a 6spi turbo 6 getting more than a V8 with about 35% more capacity. it may get ugly when ford release the 280kw motor though.

its going to be interesting at the end of this year though with a hopefully lighter falcon and new engines from holden.

[SHAKER]

well those figures aren't quite correct anymore, all bar the statement about the 6's. holden brought out the VY2 with more changes than expected as they were as you said given a bad rap for being beaten by 6's. the 245kw SS though is faster than an XR6T and the XR8 and the VY2 clubby is faster than a GT, with all 3 cars being claimed easier to live with and more "the drivers car" which alot of ford fans are getting sick of hearing though.

engines alone though, ford are ahead in my opinion, with the bulk of the BA body holding them back. Getting 260kw practically standard compared to 225kw is something for ford to hold up high though, as well as a 6spi turbo 6 getting more than a V8 with about 35% more capacity. it may get ugly when ford release the 280kw motor though.

its going to be interesting at the end of this year though with a hopefully lighter falcon and new engines from holden.
The turbo has been around for a while at the static 240 kwatt figure, so when are ford releasing a series 2 BA, and will it have moderate tweaks, ive heard that 280 kwatt figure for the turbo 6, but i was under the impression that wasnt going to be for a year or so

[fpv_gtho]

well i think the BA2 will show its head at this years sydney motor show and possibly a BA3 will arrive as well in a similar fasion to the ED and EL2 falcon. the 280kw engine should arrive either midyear or BA2 as its also going into the territory ive heard, but ford are working on some better cooling for the engine in the territory. i'd say most of not all the engines for BA2 got at least a 10kw upgrade, maybe more in the case of the GT and the XR6T might not move at all and stay at 240kw. i think they should give the XR6 and fairmonts back their more powerful engines though

[SHAKER]

well persoanlly i think they should of given the non turbo xr6 maybe another 10 or 15 kwatts more than the standard 6 models, but it will be intersting to see what they do with the 3 valve v8 engine, it seems to be the forgoten powerplant.

[fpv_gtho]

wel lthe XR6 is usually about 10kw up on the basic falcon 6, and the AU faimront took a quieter exhaust version of the VCT engine, so something should be done, especially as ford are marketing the fairmont ghia as somewhat of a sports model. i think though that the 3 valve V8 should be able to be stretched to 230kw or 240kw without any trouble

[Falcon500]

the 3v engine is a fine engine and seriously underrated but of course its been overshadowed by a quad cam with 260 and 290 kw so of coursepeople are going to leave it alone (hell its even over shadowed by by a turbo 6) id like to see it stretchedout with a few more kw and some sports tuning on the suspension of the fairmonts/fairlane G220s these come in would also help a bit.

[SHAKER]

speaking of which, has anyone heard of any 1/4 mile and 0-100 times for the djr 320?

[fpv_gtho]

very true, alot of people think its 5250rpm limit is for safety and reliability, but i first heard it was to limit the power. my guess is the engine could handle the 6000rpm with little fuss, but if ford fitted the engine to keep making power with that limit, theyd have like a 245kw 3v v8, 240kw 4 valve 6, 260kw 4v v8 and 290kw 4v v8, so you can see where a problem may lie there

[fpv_gtho]

speaking of which, has anyone heard of any 1/4 mile and 0-100 times for the djr 320?


it would be sub 14, as wheels of all people said theyd be very surprised if it was slower than a GT, motor may get it down to a 13.5, apparently some ford test drivers have done that in a GT, most likely with 1L of petrol, the smallest guy on hand etc type of stuff though

[SHAKER]

well a car with 320 kws which is what about 400 hp?.....i dont understand why cars with so much horsepower are so slow....i mean i had a 2v 351 with roller rockers and slight cam thru a 4 speed and moderate diff ratio , the engine was by no means a high horsepower unit...prob 320 330 hp, and i managed a 13.9 1/4 mile time.and that was in a brick shaped xy.......i guess new cars must be a lot bogier off the line these days

[fpv_gtho]

if you want imperial figures, its ~430hp, ~405ft/lbs

that XY though, it would be touch and go at around 1500kg and probably was a bit lacking in torque down low in the rev range. the DJR HP320, would be over 1800kg, and would be making more than 400nm at only 1000rpm with idle at about 650-700rpm, so you can imagine how touchy the car is off the line

[SHAKER]

yes well it has got 285 rears though, compared to 215s on the xy hehe.....but yes i havent driven one so i cant comment on wheelspin off the line....1800 kilos thats way to heavy for my liking..they shoul build a lightweight thoroughbred and campaign it in the gt performance category....

[fpv_gtho]

well it would sell having a lightweight option, get them to get rid of some of the strenghtening in the panels, some sound deadening, rear seats, lightweight front seats, no rear power windows, plastic windows, lightweight wheels...........ive been paying too much attention to the weight reduction kits on NFS underground by the way..........

[SHAKER]

well if its good enough for porsche to do it.why not our beloved v8s

[fpv_gtho]

i think unless they were to put a full roll cage or something ther ewould be too much body flex, and i guess not too many people see the falcon as a track car. i'd definately buy one though, it would save me alot of trouble doing something i'd go through anyway

[SHAKER]

id luv to buy just an xr6 turbo.but ultimatly a ba xr8 with 18 rims would be my dream car....theyre was one thing i did want to say about the monaros, if theyre not in production how can they race in ultimatley a 24 hour production car race........and why dont they race the normal road spec monaros(as ford did with there ba gt).didnt they think it would be upto the pace?....why race a 550000 dollar 427 beefed up v8 supercar in a essentially road car event....doesnt seem within the spirit of the rules to me, and hows gary rogers saying" it shows how good the holden product is".......name me one mechanical part thats off a road going monaro......what a joke

[SHAKER]

oops just realised you covered this subject at length in another thread..... :o

[fpv_gtho]

lol, aw well, at least yuor not for the monaro's entry in nations cup

[SHAKER]

well i reckon they should scrap nations cup, if the manafacturers cant bring out a super sports special and race it out of the factory, they cant be as good as what they claim they are.
Look at the gt performance class, thats the best form of racing in my opinion, real street cars with minimal mods.....mainly for safety and theres an abadunce of car brands in it....ford ba gt's, bmws, subaras, rx7s, lancers, and the list goes on.

[fpv_gtho]

well the majority of manufacturers in nations cup actually are racing production cars, and the mods made i think are just to keep the cars going for longer. like the ferraris, vipers and diablo's raced, maybe special race versions, but their respective companies offer the cars to the public still, albeit in limited numbers

[SHAKER]

Well i know for a fact the Vipers have a special"Le mans" kit fitted underneath the car to push the car onto the ground, which isnt a factory option, and as for the 427 Monaro...well havent seen any in the showrooms, the Nation Cup series was a break away of the production car series which was formed because the speed differences of the different cars. The differences between say a Ferrari and a Suzuki Gti were just terrifying.

[fpv_gtho]

so the vipers had a diffuser installed then?? i'd expect the vipers to put up the biggest challenge to the monaro's, with the formula of 1500 odd kg of weight with a large, lazy engine. it was a smart decision though to keep the supercars away from the sports hatches

[SHAKER]

Yes well i remember vividly when they first raced the Viper in the production car series.....it definantly had the power to overtake anything in its sites, but as always the Yanks didnt care much for brakes and after a handfull of laps it would either need a full brake pad change or end up in the kitty litty or even worse......run off the road and rollover..as happened at Mallala some years ago....Its intersting to note when they were racing it in the 3 hour production race at Bathurst (as it was known and raced then)...The Viper was in the pits getting a full pad change and one the channel 10 commentators said well" its got a tonne of horsepower and no brakes.nothings changed from the 70s with the mopar brigade"!

[fpv_gtho]

lol, that was terrible back in the 70's but, if onyl the supercar scare hadnt of come and the XB GT wouldve gone great with 4 wheel discs.....

maybe thats something they can hold back the monaro with this year, tell it to have crappy pads

[SHAKER]

well i was under the impression the phase 4 was gonna have 4 wheel discs, as the first ever aussie car with 4 wheel disc brakes was the luxurios landau xa coupe..(yes another first for ford hehe =P)

[fpv_gtho]

aww man those landou's were a piece of work, i wanna get one, but year the LTD/Landau was the first and the XBGT followed up with them, but i think it took till the EA for the very basic taxi pack falcon for them to be included

[SHAKER]

yes well the vn was the first commy to have standard 4 wheel disc so it sounds about right that the ea was the first model to have std 4wd...

[fpv_gtho]

well holden wouldve been riding the marketing hard on that fact, the VN came out before the EA, then they wouldve been back at it with the VR having the standard drivers airbag. although ford were the first with standard drivers and passengers, plus the first to offer 4 wheel discs

[Falcon500]

All preformance XBs (GTS all GS's with v8s and some others in between) came standard with discs all round and was an option across the whole range. Yeah wellone thing ford should be proud of they made an airbag thats compatable with a bull bar.

[fpv_gtho]

it was rather the other way around: a bullbar that still activated the airbags. they did that in 95 on the EF, but how do you think ford will market being first with stability control and knee bags? i think theyre also gunna have the first factory fitted 3rd row seat, i think on the adventra its either dealer fit or HBD

[Falcon500]

Well either way i still think its neat they got that working. Well knee bags jeeze what a relif to know theyllbe there :rolleyes: And 3rd row of seats they have been doing that since EA wagon unless you mean proper seats and not dickie seats?

[fpv_gtho]

well the knee bags are just bragging rights for ford in the safety department. wih the 3rd bench, its a proper, factory fitted, fold into the floor item where i think everything else has been a dealer fit accessory

[Falcon500]

Wellthem knee bags will only add to the wieght of the vehical. I have noidea about the Dickie seat if it was dealer item or not but its been around for a hell of along time.

[fpv_gtho]

i think theyve always been a dealer fitted accessory, rather than a factory fitted option

[SHAKER]

well apparantly in the states there airbags are set at a more forcefull deployment speed cause of the fact on average most yanks dont wear there seat belts, and there have been many cases were young children seated in the passenger seats have been decapitated after only minor bingles because of the sheer force of the airbag!

[Falcon500]

Well while ui was cleaning between the door jambs in a BMW 535 (or somthing like that it was a 5 series) there was a warning between the doorwhich basicly said dont let your child lean their heard on the door because in case of a crash the air bag can possibly result in death or severe burns...and that was for the ones in the back seat that are ment (more) for children.

[SHAKER]

well holden wouldve been riding the marketing hard on that fact, the VN came out before the EA, then they wouldve been back at it with the VR having the standard drivers airbag. although ford were the first with standard drivers and passengers, plus the first to offer 4 wheel discs
well im not to sure that the vr was the first commy to have"standard" airbags, not even the"vs" for that matter, as my brother owns a vr clubsport and it doesnt have any airbags and a mate of mine owned a vs executive and it didnt have any airbags either! Well Holden lured a lot of people in with there 4speed auto and v6 engine, where as ford still had the slushbox 3 speed auto and the head breaking ohc engine.

[fpv_gtho]

im pretty sure the VR was the first with a standard drivers airbag, it wouldve convinced ford to add it to the standard list on the EF when it came out about a year later. i think every manufacturers different methods of safety testing could contribute to different systems being more dangerous than others, working different ways. all i care is ford done the development on the dual inflation stage airbags they offer.

[SHAKER]

hm well i drove my brothers vr clubsport the other day and i didnt recall seeing any airbag decals or anything like that on it.if the standard vrs came out with airbags a hsv would definanlty have them.....im pretty sure i asked him a year or so back about this very issue and he said that it didnt have any airbags but ill have to ask him the next time i see him.i could be wrong.

[fpv_gtho]

i think i saw it a while ago on something holden was gloating about, being the first with a standard drivers airbag on the VR. ford answered back by being the first with standard drivers and passenger airbag, with the passenger airbag covering the centre of the dash as well

[SHAKER]

wel i know the first airbag on a commy was in the "vp" model, but that was an option ofcourse, as im pretty sure it was in the vr and vs commys, could it have been the vt that had the first "standard" driver airbag?

[fpv_gtho]

i dont think they wouldve waited that long, not when the EF wouldve had it standard and the AU2 wouldve had driver and passenger's standard. it could be like the situation whels were in for the 2001 COTY, where they gave it to the barina but the 2001 model barina didnt come standard with 5 lap sash seat belts and i think holden gave them models with them fitted or something

[SHAKER]

can anyone shed some light on the subject?

[fpv_gtho]

i done a little bit of looking around, and i think it was the VR acclaim that had a standard drivers airbag first, so models based off the executive wouldnt exactly have come with them unless specified

[SHAKER]

so the vr acclaim got standard airbags but the vr "hsvs" didnt....thats a bit odd...mind you my bros 185kw clubsport has the same size discs as the v6 commodores.....he was absolutly livid when he found that out....he wants to upgrade them to corvette discs....as it does suffer from brake fade when pushed hard.

[fpv_gtho]

well until recently, all HSV's all bar the senators and R8's were based on the executive, with the R8 being berlina based and the senator being calais based, but with the VY holdens made even the SS berlina based. thats a bit harsh though having a clubsport have the standard discs, it hought it was bad enough the XR8 having the XT brakes, but ford reckons the move was to favour the XT not to discourage the XR8

[Falcon500]

Well if imrembering correctly the same breaks that are on my brother auII XR8 arethe same sizeas the current XTbreaks so i wouldent get too stroppy over that.
No theHSVs lacking air bags awasnt totallyodd it want untill VT that holden used proper sterring wheels unlike the tacky boyracer style ones they hadmounted on Boss kits.

[SHAKER]

yes well i thought it was the "vt" model to have the first standard airbag aswell..

[fpv_gtho]

Well if imrembering correctly the same breaks that are on my brother auII XR8 arethe same sizeas the current XTbreaks so i wouldent get too stroppy over that.
No theHSVs lacking air bags awasnt totallyodd it want untill VT that holden used proper sterring wheels unlike the tacky boyracer style ones they hadmounted on Boss kits.


well it was highly rumoured that the BA would come standard with the au XR8's premium brakes as theyve long been a falcon sore point apparently. the VT may have been the first commodore base bodel to have a standard airbag, but holden went all out in safety apparently with the VR and with the acclaim aimed at families and the executive aimed at fleets they kept the executive as cheap as posible

[Falcon500]

Nothing wrong with the standard brekas as it is even with all the extra weight it stopsbetter thena rival executive...And what a stupid bloody name for a poverty packcar EXECTUTIVE.

[fpv_gtho]

well the police seem to think differently about the brakes. they had a 10 car per state trial for the last couple of months to see whether the XR6T would be suitable for their use. after the trial was over the police asked ford to equip the cars with the premium brakes and got an answer back saying the standard brakes were over engineered for standard use, but the police went away and from their tests found the standard ones were inadequate so now the Xr6T's theyre gunna get are gunna have the better brakes

[Falcon500]

Well their inadiquite for the way the coppas are using them for.

[fpv_gtho]

well a fully loaded cop car is over 2 tonnes apparently. they reckon they can get about twice the life out of the brake pads on the XR6T compared to the XR8

[Falcon500]

That would not suprrise me in the slightest although i do believe that the coppa should get the premium break package...htey are trying to keep the roads(and them selves) as safe as possible.

[SHAKER]

its all tax payers money anyway.but yeah i guess it would be a wiser move to get the premo brake package.

[fpv_gtho]

well i cant be sure, but i wouldnt be surprised if the XR6T's theyre gunna start getting, kitted to their specification theyre probably only paying about $40K each. they also reckon the fuel consumption on the cars was heaps better than the ss and XR8, they were recording 14-17L/100km compared to 22-25L/100km.

[SHAKER]

well looks like the v8s are a dying breed then, but then again how much are the services going to cost throughout the life of the vehicles..replacing a blown turbo wouldnt be cheap!

[fpv_gtho]

there not a dying breed, ford just got the XR6T too good. since the launch theyre about $2K more expensive and theyre still cannabilising XR8 sales still

[SHAKER]

well the xr8 has full exposure due to the v8 supercar series, (even though its not directly linked to the road car as everyone knows), the xr6 turbo doesnt have any exposure except for the odd tv add and targa tasmania race where they dont really get that much exposure at all....now imagine if it was the other way around.....the xr8 would be suffering more....but having said all that if i had the money id definatly go for the xr8, but thats cause im a v8 fan ive always had v8s, even though they arent the most reliable and cheapest cars to run, but each to there own!

[fpv_gtho]

i'd probably take the XR8 as well, mostly for the better manual gearbox though

[SHAKER]

well why not got for the auto t6 and get the premo brake package aswell!....thatll be on par with the xr8 price wise wouldnt it?....mind you if i bought a xr8 id go for the 18 inch rims, premo brakes and manual trans.

[fpv_gtho]

mmm thats a thought, but it brings to another reason why the cops rather the XR's to the SS commodores: the XR's come standard with 17' wheels compared to the standard 18" wheels on the SS, and so are cheaper to replace tires on, but holden said that they'll supply the cops with the rims off the SV8, SS wagon and ss crewman. i think more than anything, i wanna get an XR8 because of the supercharger kits available for it. for $16K i can get a 350hp XR8 to 700hp

[SHAKER]

well if id bought an xr8 worth 50 odd grand id be tucking it up in cotton wool, cause i wouldnt be able to afford anything that broke or wore out on it...unless i won the lottery ofcourse then id go bolostic!

[fpv_gtho]

i think alot of people, especially in XR6T's are waiting for the 3 year warranty to run out otherwise if something happens and theyve done something to the car, they get voided warranty. someone actually wrote into performance fords magazine australia, saying that he recieved a notice from ford saying if they found out he had taken his te50 on the track they would void his warranty on the car. cummon, its a freakin te50 for christs sake

[SHAKER]

oh no they cant be giving out warranties if theyre gonna thrash around the track all day.....lol. thats like plymouth in the 60s made cars speciffically for drag racing, there was no warranty at all on them, even if they were only going to be used for street purposes

[fpv_gtho]

well youve got to expect things like that in circumstances like that, im sure ford never offered much if any warranty on the HO's or bathurst cobras, but voiding it on a te50 because it was used on the track is just harsh, its almost encouraging people to go top speed on the roads because theyre scared of doing it on the track cause ford might be paying someone to take down all the license plate numbers of the ppl there

[SHAKER]

it reminds me off a stories ive heard of people renting hi performance cars and taking them down the street meets......it does happen

[fpv_gtho]

lol, that would get them introuble if they got found out. me and my brother have the idea of test driving a GT and taking it to the eastern creak drags

[Falcon500]

Yeah the raven blackshelby mustangs that all went to a car hire joint used to have that happen alot. And if the cars not damged and they have no immediate proof there isnt much they can do.

[fpv_gtho]

well they can probably try and take legal action if they think theyve got enough, but im sure people doing this sort of thing go around making sure no one knows whats going on

[SHAKER]

some hire company in the US had a batch of mach1 stangs in the 60s, apparantly they used to come back with shredded tyres and thrashed out engines, these days they put eletronic limiters and stuff like that so people cant do burnouts and rev them to high and soforth

[fpv_gtho]

well by now it wouldnt surprise me to hear someone like hertz fits GPS to their best cars

[SHAKER]

yeah it was hertz that had the mach one mustangs, i think theyve definatly learned there lesson......my mate went to the US a couple of years ago, and they hired a ferrari in las vegas, the car was fitted with a device that if i sensed exsesive whell spin ander about 2000 rpm the engine would shut down and it couldnt be restarted again! they were told of that device before they hired the car!

[fpv_gtho]

well it wouldnt take much to get a ferrari's wheels spinning. i wouldnt be surprised if it was a 355 that they tried to hire, and theyve got a redline close to 8 or 9 thousand rpm

[SHAKER]

well my mate was spewing because you had to give it revs down low to get the wheels spinning, you couldnt just boot it after 2000 rpm because it made silky power up until about the 8000 rpm mark but just had no torque to light the rears......he wanted to hire the dodge viper but his mate opted for the ferrari.seeing he was paying for it

[fpv_gtho]

well i'd say the viper wouldve been more fun in some circumstances but the ferrari's always going to be better at somethings, but burnouts below 2000rpm isnt one of them