EU/UN wants general Speedlimit on the Autobahn

[Mäusekino]

bad news for all motorheads (not Motörheads!): both the EU and UN are demanding a general speedlimit of 120 km/h (75 mp/h) on the german Autobahn cause it would reduce the CO2-emission. fact is it doesn't namely for this reasons:

1. germany is nearly the only country in europe, that has no general speedlimit, if there is one, than it's cause of the static situation, f.e.: a curved run, it goes downhill, it's got just 2 spoors for each direction, a big volume of traffic or the weather
2. just about 2% of the german streets are Autobahns
3. just a third of this 2% is not limited
4. the average speed is under 120km/h already

also this reasons are against a speedlimit:

1. the safety, a permanent speed of 120 km/h would be narotic
2. it's just 0,6 % of emission that would be saved - maximal
3. a control of the speedlimit would be very complex & expensive
4. the german minister of transport is planning a reform of the car-tax, so it'll be more expensive to drive a dirty car than a "clean" car
5. more effective ways to reduce the emission (not just in germany) are the enlargement of the autobahn (3 spoors instead of 2 for each direction), a traffic control system, prevention & faster elimination of traffic jams & narrowings and faster & more effective roadworks
6. the FUN of driving fast, of putting the pedal to metal and just feel the speed and see how the other cars, trucks and busses just fly by

[Ferrer]

That's obviously bad.

[my porsche]

Whoever votes yes recieves an immediate permanent ban and is noted as having lost their manhood.

[bmwpower]

Whoever votes yes recieves an immediate permanent ban and is noted as having lost their manhood.

Lol yeh i saw this on BBC earlier in the week and was going to start a thread but forgot. They said the likely good of anything happening is virtually nothing. So far the government, supported by the German people have flatly replied no to both organisations and it is unlikely they will excert enough pressure to change something so engrained into the German culture..

About time someone stood up for the drivers...FTW!!

[drakkie]

bad news for all motorheads (not Motörheads!): both the EU and UN are demanding a general speedlimit of 120 km/h (75 mp/h) on the german Autobahn cause it would reduce the CO2-emission. fact is it doesn't namely for this reasons:

1. germany is nearly the only country in europe, that has no general speedlimit, if there is one, than it's cause of the static situation, f.e.: a curved run, it goes downhill, it's got just 2 spoors for each direction, a big volume of traffic or the weather
2. just about 2% of the german streets are Autobahns
3. just a third of this 2% is not limited
4. the average speed is under 120km/h already

also this reasons are against a speedlimit:

1. the safety, a permanent speed of 120 km/h would be narotic
2. it's just 0,6 % of emission that would be saved - maximal
3. a control of the speedlimit would be very complex & expensive
4. the german minister of transport is planning a reform of the car-tax, so it'll be more expensive to drive a dirty car than a "clean" car
5. more effective ways to reduce the emission (not just in germany) are the enlargement of the autobahn (3 spoors instead of 2 for each direction), a traffic control system, prevention & faster elimination of traffic jams & narrowings and faster & more effective roadworks
6. the FUN of driving fast, of putting the pedal to metal and just feel the speed and see how the other cars, trucks and busses just fly by

7. General driving conditions only allow you to drive faster for 2% of the time anyway.

[henk4]

Whoever votes yes recieves an immediate permanent ban and is noted as having lost their manhood.

I have voted yes....because the poll does not state what the limit should be....In neighbouring countries France and Luxemburg maximum speed is 130 kph....(also Danmark?)

In practice the times that you can actually go flat out without having to worry about slower traffic are very rare and far between. Most of the times after one or two kilometer you get stuck behind slower vehicles, and the time gained is very little, and in no relation to the additional amount of fuel burnt to get back to your intended topspeed. It is also not for nothing that when you get involved in a an accident on a non-restricted part of the motorway, you will be held (partly) responsible by the insurance companies, irrespective whether your were technically (according to the traffic regulations) to blame or not to blame.

[Coventrysucks]

1. the safety, a permanent speed of 120 km/h would be narotic

As much as I commend the "against" camp for standing up to EU nonsense, this argument is complete and utter drivel.

Aside from German Autobahns and a few select bits of road, the overwhelming majority of highway/motorway roads are all limited to 120km/h or less.

Does everyone die?

No.

End of argument.

Where the argument falls down is that emissions are not related to the speed of the vehicle, but the speed of the engine.

If you were to drive at 120km/h in 3rd or 4th or something, you are creating the same amount of pollution that you would be at the same engine speed, but higher gear, and therefore vehicle speed.

[blingbling]

I have voted yes....owned...

[henk4]

Where the argument falls down is that emissions are not related to the speed of the vehicle, but the speed of the engine.


try to watch an inboard computer and see the fuel consumption during the times that you are accelerating up to 170-180-190 kph.....

[Ferrer]

try to watch an inboard computer and see the fuel consumption during the times that you are accelerating up to 170-180-190 kph.....
I don't think it's a clever idea to stare at the onboard computer while doing 190km/h... ;)

[henk4]

there is a much more far reaching aspect to all of this. Up to now the fact that there are ungoverned stretches of German motorway could always be used as an excuse to produce vehicles that can exceed any speed limits. However, should Europe become a full 120-130 kph zones, the legitimacy of allowing cars capable of speed over that limit could be seriously questioned. Rather than governing their max speed at 250 kph, the German industry might be forced to reduce that limit by a 100 kph.....

[henk4]

I don't think it's a clever idea to stare at the onboard computer while doing 190km/h... ;),

no, you only do it during the period of getting there:) at constant speed consumption settles....

[Ferrer]

there is a much more far reaching aspect to all of this. Up to now the fact that there are ungoverned stretches of German motorway could always be used as an excuse to produce vehicles that can exceed any speed limits. However, should Europe become a full 120-130 kph zones, the legitimacy of allowing cars capable of speed over that limit could be seriously questioned. Rather than governing their max speed at 250 kph, the German industry might be forced to reduce that limit by a 100 kph.....
We might as well ban sportscars and supercars for that matter...

[henk4]

We might as well ban sportscars and supercars for that matter...

I am just describing what could be ahead of us....perhaps for these cars the top speed could be governed at 155 kph;)

[Ferrer]

I am just describing what could be ahead of us....perhaps for these cars the top speed could be governed at 155 kph;)
5km/h more... you're really generous... :D

[henk4]

5km/h more... you're really generous... :D

well, I was just reading the editorial of this month's EVO, and Mr. Metcalfe took the typical approach of blaming "the others" and the "general public" who votes with their chequebooks, and buy 32% more SUVs in the UK than the year before.... He admits that "global warming" is a "world problem" and then points to others. As long as we can do that there is little scope for any improvement...

EDIT: and then I got to Gordon Murray's column, as to why the concept of a global (and sensible) car does work in some countrie (France/Japan) and not in others (the UK/USA). Also here the ultimate result might be legislation to put some sense into people....

[nota]

Also here the ultimate result might be legislation to put some sense into people....
If this legislation is approved it will have ramifications especially for exclusively high-performance marques, like Porsche, who's range does not include small 'low carbon' cars that could otherwise be used to offset the emissions of their 'gross polluters'

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=FT&Date=20070126&ID=6396543

[henk4]

If this legislation is approved it will have ramifications especially for exclusively high-performance marques, like Porsche, who's range does not include small 'low carbon' cars that could otherwise be used to offset the emissions of their 'gross polluters'

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=FT&Date=20070126&ID=6396543

It is all about the "average" emission of a particular brand....If Porsche takes effective control of VAG, they can use their small cars to compensate for the Cayennes...

Murray's column was more about the attitude of different nationalities towards cars.. Japan where one third of all car sales is the small class (Kei Class) or France (where you cannot spot an undented car in Paris and nobody seems to care) and then the UK where each minor scratch is immediately attacked with T-cut...

[Sweeney921]

I voted no, but not just because I like driving fast. It's kind of a far stretch, but wouldn't putting a speed limit on the Autobahn essentially kill the reputation of one of Germany's landmarks? That could be detrimental to Germany's tourism and economy. Some people go on trips hoping to push the limits on the Autobahn.

Saying that a speed limit on the Autobahn will save the earth from pollution is the same as saying that motorsports are bad for the environment, when in reality motorsports create a miniscule amount of pollution compared to the everyday driving of everyone on earth. I really don't think that the extra pollution created from high-speed driving on the Autobahn is noticeable when compared to other pollution-creating driving habits. Attention should be focused to a broader solution, such as creating engines that create less pollution at all times.

[Coventrysucks]

motorsports are bad for the environment

They aren't much of a benfit.

You've got to laugh at Honda's attempts to raise "awareness" of "ecological issues".

How are they doing this - by carting a load of people and equipment around the globe in highly polluting aeroplanes, so they can drive highly polluting cars round in circles for a few hours, before retiring to their factory where huge amounts of power and resources are dumped into building a car which isn't so slow for the next "race".

I'm sure that'll save the planet.

It's like Greenpeace campaigning against animal cruelty by riding the oceans astride a couple of whales, before unwinding with a relaxing game of "club the baby seal".

The EU should have been shut down when they started wasting time and resources on the scourge of humanity - the fact that possibly cucumbers/bananas weren't "straight" enough.

[Sweeney921]

They aren't much of a benfit.
Sure, but people like motorsports, and they also like the Autobahn:)

[ruim20]

Just more hipocritical politics... think about it.. how come cars don't come limited from factory to 120-130kms/h? how come most of the new cars can reach speeds of 200kms/h when the majoraty of europes speed limits are 120kms/h?

[Cyco]

I voted no because I'm against rules that limit what was once free for no "good" reason.

Yes accelerating to 150+km/h adds to the green house gas release, but for the very infrequent nature of the accelerations I'd let it go and try and clean up other much more massive sources of pollution.

[henk4]

Yes accelerating to 150+km/h adds to the green house gas release, but for the very infrequent nature of the accelerations I'd let it go and try and clean up other much more massive sources of pollution.

this is where the myth start, if you call around every minute "very infrequent".....

[ripper46]

if Autobahns get a general speedlimit , the germans will trash the European parliament :D
seriously, Germany has a big car culture. When you want to get your drivers license you have to take lessons, and a part of these lessons is about learning to drive quickly in a safe way.

Furthermore , I will also take part in attacking the European parliament:)
this way of thinking (speedlimits, heavier eco tax,...) just pisses me off.
They allways point their finger at the evil "automobile" but no one questions the pollution of airplanes, inneficient industries, Americans whit v8's in everything:D....
Here in Belgium there was a "Pollution speedlimit" of 90 kilometres for the past few days, and one of the ministers who supported this idea was clocked at 120 kph in his big audi A8 :D. If they want emmisions to drop they can start themselves by setting an example of how it should be done and therefor they should drive those VW 3liter diesel hatchbacks ore something like that...

[clutch-monkey]

if Autobahns get a general speedlimit , the germans will trash the European parliament :D
starting with poland again?

[henk4]

seriously, Germany has a big car culture. When you want to get your drivers license you have to take lessons, and a part of these lessons is about learning to drive quickly in a safe way.


as with so many lessons, the results fail to be applied very regularly....(I know from experience that the mirrors are very often only used the check whether the hairdo needs correction, while the reluctance to use right hand lane, especially when there are three lanes available is very strong. Furthermore, Germany now has many inhabitants who came from a country where there was a 100 kph speed limit in the first place..

[Ferrer]

while the reluctance to use right hand lane, especially when there are three lanes available is very strong
That's very annoying indeed. Here it happens very often. You see people doing 120km/h in the middle lane when the motorway is deserted. And to overtake them I have to cross all the motorway...

Repression is not what's needed, what we need is education.

[Clivey]

this is where the myth start, if you call around every minute "very infrequent".....

Cyco, he's jealous - the 'grandad mobile' can't keep up :D

This anti-car ecobollocks went 'too far' ages ago and it's time for it to stop. As JC said, we need to go and buy a few Hummer H1's / Range Rovers, fit 9v batteries so they class as hybrids, then go and perform burnouts and doughnuts right outside Ken Livingstone's front door - we'll take the rest of Europe from there...sounds like fun.

And before you say anything, my next car will be a diesel and do 50mpg.

EDIT: Can a mod please change the "YES" tickbox to a link to an automatic permaban?:rolleyes: :D

[henk4]

EDIT: Can a mod please change the "YES" tickbox to a link to an automatic permaban?:rolleyes: :D

the most interesting comments seem to come from people who have never driven the "autobahn"..

[drakkie]

the most interesting comments seem to come from people who have never driven the "autobahn"..

:D

I haven't driven myself on it(yet), but have been a passenger for atleast 10.000 km 's on it ! You will very rarely find a German speeding, even if there are no limits. In reality it are always foreigners on the left lane, preferably with the missus + two kids and a boot filled to the roof, that are !

Only late at night, you get the younger drivers in their BMW's and Audi's and the occasional Porsche driver joining in the "fun".

And I also learned to drive higher speeds in my driving lessons. I could floor it once, to know what it feels like. I reached 185 before my instructor told me to slow down. Not legal, but very educational :)

[Ferrer]

:D

I haven't driven myself on it(yet), but have been a passenger for atleast 10.000 km 's on it ! You will very rarely find a German speeding, even if there are no limits. In reality it are always foreigners on the left lane, preferably with the missus + two kids and a boot filled to the roof, that are !

Only late at night, you get the younger drivers in their BMW's and Audi's and the occasional Porsche driver joining in the "fun".

And I also learned to drive higher speeds in my driving lessons. I could floor it once, to know what it feels like. I reached 185 before my instructor told me to slow down. Not legal, but very educational :)
According to my experience I can't agree with that. When we were in Munich about 3 or 4 years ago german executive saloons would overtake us quite often and we did speeds up to 170km/h.

[henk4]

According to my experience I can't agree with that. When we were in Munich about 3 or 4 years ago german executive saloons would overtake us quite often and we did speeds up to 170km/h.

yes, when you drive outside the holiday season or weekends, the real fast cars are driven by solitary men...

[Coventrysucks]

Of course, to further weaken the argument, the EU imposing a limit of 120km/h does not mean that it will be observed.

The speed limit on the UK's motorways is 113km/h, due to the nature of our government's approach to policing - i.e. everyone should be filling out paperwork explaining why they haven't met their performance targets (unsurprisingly, because they have been filling in paperwork...) - there are plenty of stretches not policed by officers or "safety" cameras where you will find that people will typically drive at 130 - 145km/h.

Of course this results in millions of deaths every year because "speed kills", and tens of millions more are killed because of all the extra pollution caused.

Perhaps the German authorities will realise there are more important things to be getting on with that wrapping people's knuckles for killing the planet.

[Ferrer]

In fact IIRC here in Catalunya (nothern Spain) all toll roads, that is all motorways, haven't got a single a speed camera, and only very rarely you see the occasional police car with a mobile radar. That means that the average speed is above the legal speed.

[henk4]

Of course, to further weaken the argument, the EU imposing a limit of 120km/h does not mean that it will be observed.


Dimas has just mentioned a figure, without realising that France, Luxemburg, Italy and some other countries allow 130....

Furthermore, if the limit would be 140 many people will do 160. My cruise control in France goes at 135-140 too.
Yesterday however I set the cc on our national limit of 120 kph and still managed to do our 270 km trip to my in-laws in 2.5 hours or about 5 minutes more than normal (up to 140 where possible)...

[Pando]

I voted no, just because of tradition. The speed limitless autobahn is one of Germany's, if not Europe's, places to visit for a car enthusiast and during my next trip to Germany I plan to go there. I've never driven on the Autobahn myself, but even if I would drive on it daily I probably wouldn't do over 140-150kph most of the times, which is pretty much the same as I do on the Finnish motorways. I still enjoy to get passed by various exotic sports cars and if they can do it legally its better.

edit:


In fact IIRC here in Catalunya (nothern Spain) all toll roads, that is all motorways, haven't got a single a speed camera, and only very rarely you see the occasional police car with a mobile radar. That means that the average speed is above the legal speed.
Same thing here, except all our roads are toll free.

[Coventrysucks]

My cruise control in France goes at 135-140 too.

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/sundaymirror2/mar2006/5/6/00018200-4875-1426-B24E0C01AC1BF814.jpg

That's you, that is.

[Clivey]

the most interesting comments seem to come from people who have never driven the "autobahn"..

Have you ever flown a spacecraft? Do you understand it's significance?

The Autobahn represents a driver's freedom. In this country, the Government want to fit black box recorders to our cars so they can charge us for every time we drive...and if you think that they're going to lower other road taxes enough to compensate, you're sadly mistaken.

Also, as JC so rightly pointed out: "If they know where you are, they also know how fast you're going." - automatic speeding fines anyone...?


Thought not.

When I can afford to make the trip over to Germany (with the right car, and don't read this the wrong way), I'll be paying the Autobahn a visit...and it's nobody else's business what colour it is, how tall I am or at what velocity of my vehicle is, as long as I'm not endangering them.

[henk4]

Have you ever flown a spacecraft? Do you understand it's significance?

The Autobahn represents a driver's freedom. In this country, the Government want to fit black box recorders to our cars so they can charge us for every time we drive...and if you think that they're going to lower other road taxes enough to compensate, you're sadly mistaken.

Also, as JC so rightly pointed out: "If they know where you are, they also know how fast you're going." - automatic speeding fines anyone...?


Thought not.

When I can afford to make the trip over to Germany (with the right car, and don't read this the wrong way), I'll be paying the Autobahn a visit...and it's nobody else's business what colour it is, how tall I am or at what velocity of my vehicle is, as long as I'm not endangering them.

nice confirmation of my quote.....

Anyway, my point is that as soon as you get to the Autobahn you will notice that your concept of freedom will be hampered greatly by other people who also have a concept of freedom ,which allows them to drive at speeds of 120-140 or 80-90 for trucks and caravans. All these freedom loving people share the same road, and in abundance. It is hardly practical these days to speed up to over 200 as the next minutes you will have to full in the brakes again. It is much more efficient and helps relaxed long distance travel when you set the cruise control to 130-140 and you will find that you have to brake far less and accelerate far less, while loosing virtually no time.


PS: There will be a new EU regulation for spacecraft that they will have to slow down when orbiting earth. The amount of debris from sateliites etc. flying around is now so big, that it will be no longer safe to stick to warp 5....

[Ferrer]

nice confirmation of my quote.....

Anyway, my point is that as soon as you get to the Autobahn you will notice that your concept of freedom will be hampered greatly by other people who also have a concept of freedom ,which allows them to drive at speeds of 120-140 or 80-90 for trucks and caravans. All these freedom loving people share the same road, and in abundance. It is hardly practical these days to speed up to over 200 as the next minutes you will have to full in the brakes again. It is much more efficient and helps relaxed long distance travel when you set the cruise control to 130-140 and you will find that you have to brake far less and accelerate far less, while loosing virtually no time.
And anyway it's not like you going to do +250km/h all the time, even if you could. Driving fast makes you pay much more attention, but it is also a lot more tiring.

[Sauc3]

And anyway it's not like you going to do +250km/h all the time, even if you could. Driving fast makes you pay much more attention, but it is also a lot more tiring.
With the Wiesmann in Germany we were at about 210-220kp/h for a good 15-20 mins, a E46 330Ci and Z3M Coupe tagging along. Lovely BMW engines in a row.
I personally haven't actually gone 200, but it seemed very manageable and neither of the other BMWs seemed to have any trouble either.

PS, great avatar choice.

[Rockefella]

Explain the three urinals.

[Ferrer]

With the Wiesmann in Germany we were at about 210-220kp/h for a good 15-20 mins, a E46 330Ci and Z3M Coupe tagging along. Lovely BMW engines in a row.
I personally haven't actually gone 200, but it seemed very manageable and neither of the other BMWs seemed to have any trouble either.

PS, great avatar choice.
You see that's exactly my point, in 3 hour trip it's not like you're going to go over 200km/h for three hours. More likely you'll only do these kind of speeds for a short period of time and the rest of the time you'll cruise at around 150km/h.

I personally have driven at speeds over 200km/h, but only for short amounts of time. I usuall drive at speeds around 130-150km/h, or if conditions allow and I'm in the mood 150-160km/h. I think that's a perfectly acceptable speed for cruising, bearing in mind the car I'm driving and where I am/was driving it.

What I'd basically is that there's is not a limit where speed starts being dangerous, but it rather depends on the weather conditions, the road and the car. In certain circumstances 120km/h can be a very speed dangerous indeed.