The Accessorized Car - Europe's Active Lifestyle Vehicle

[drakkie]

Enjoy this article:


As I’ve been spending the past two weeks in Europe, I have notices many differences in automotive culture. One thing in particular stood out however. This is the way Europeans accomplish very active lifestyles, without the need of what I, as an American, consider a proper accompanying vehicle.

This became evident as I journeyed from Germany
to the ski town of Scladming, for a weekend on the mountain. During the six hour trip, as I got closer to my destination, I noticed that, like in the US, more and more of the vehicles around me were also destined for ski weekends. However, unlike in the
US, I didn’t notice a single SUV. Instead, passenger cars like my Opel were doing duty of transporting their occupant and gear through Alps. I also noticed that they were all loaded with accessories suited for such duty. Roof top ski racks and roof top cargo torpedoes were stylishly fashioned to almost every single vehicle. I also noticed that most every vehicle was fitted with appropriate snow tires.

This lifestyle of accessorization results in the ability to own a much more lean, efficient vehicle, which is better suited for daily life, with absolutely no sacrifice to flexibility to accommodate activities such as skiing. If you’re a skier like myself, you know that you don’t need a large vehicle to carry many sets of skis. In fact you prefer them to be outside, where thy won’t wet soil the interior. Also, if you’ve ever driven with snow tires, you’ll question the need for any vehicle to have all wheel drive. Snow tires provide amazing grip in the absolute worst of road conditions. I learned from interviewing several Germans that snow tires are required by law during certain months and road conditions. Everybody there switches to them for the winter season.

So you have a region of people who are probably more active than the average American, but they don’t drive vehicles that we buy for that purpose. Yet they still get along just fine traversing The Alps and other treacherous road conditions. They still carry 4 – 7 adults on these journeys and all their gear. They drive with confidence, safety and security. This leads one to ask, “Why the difference?” Well, it’s complicated, but let's say that most of it is attributable to fuel costs. Fuel in Europe is two to four times more expensive than in the US. However, there are still lessons to be learned even for those of us who don’t bear the burden of expensive fuel. If we want to lead more responsible lives, there are other options besides driving a vehicle that is way too large for daily life, in effort accommodate less frequent activities. I say, right size your vehicle, then accessorize it for living.

Besides the many functional benefits that come from the outlook of accessorizing, there are also financial benefits. On average, an SUV in any given segment carries about a $3000 premium over it’s car counterpart. That does not include all wheel drive, which is about another $1500. Then add in the extra operating expenses such as fuel, and you’re easily talking about a $6,000 premium to own and SUV in the United States. Compare that to about $800 for a top-end Yakima roof rack system (which still give you that active look) and $500 for a set of winter wheels and tires. That’s $4700 in savings and you’ll have a vehicle that is more fun to drive, better for the environment easier to maneuver and more comfortable. The choice is clear. For real life driving and living, we should learn a lesson from the Europeans and live right size, then accessorize.



Source:
http://uh2l.blogs.com/realitydriven/2007/03/europes_active_.html

[Kitdy]

Agreed. SUVs are silly vehicles.

[Coventrysucks]

I've tried arguing that point before, when people - typically Americans - defend their "need" of an SUV for certain activities.

They never seem to fully engage with the fact that millions of people across Europe manage to undertake the same activities without "needing" an SUV.

[ScionDriver]

This proves what I have known for a long time: Americans are by and large stupid and as a culture we have a belief that everything needs to be larger.

We can get by with smaller cars but we have been buying huge cars and SUVs for so long we view anything smaller as unsafe and poorly made, thus it will be very hard for this habit to break.

[Kitdy]

There is surely no need for SUVs anywhere it is just that in the States they are feasible. Roads are larger, the lifestyle is different, and people for whatever reason want to sit up high and have the ability to put alot of stuff in their car and be all safe and big - I don't know exactly why - it seems like a waste of cash to me. Buy a stationwagon. Oh yeah, those are out of style... ;)

[Ferrer]

Drakkie, why do all your threads carry the same theme?

[Vaigra]

Drakkie, why do all your threads carry the same theme?
My favourite: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28908

[The_Canuck]

Bah your just jealous because SUVs don't fit on ur tiny roads :p

Also try fitting 5 people, a dog, and camping supplies in freaking 206 or whatever you guys drive over there.

Until then us north americans will continue to buy large cars, ruin the environment and laugh at your sub 1 litre engines.

:D

[Coventrysucks]

Also try fitting 5 people, a dog, and camping supplies in freaking 206 or whatever you guys drive over there.

See what I mean?

Of course millions of people fit 5 people, a dog + luggage into their vehicles - I've done it on many an occasion.

Never actually "needed" an SUV though...

Do all American's like this think that people in Europe never go on vacation, take people with them, carry large objects around, etc, etc?

[Mr.Tiv]

See what I mean?

Of course millions of people fit 5 people, a dog + luggage into their vehicles - I've done it on many an occasion.

Never actually "needed" an SUV though...

Do all American's like this think that people in Europe never go on vacation, take people with them, carry large objects around, etc, etc?

One must question the seriousness of the Canuck's post. Surely, after reading your first post in this thread, he only wanted to provoke you.

[h00t_h00t]

All this proves is that the Germans are weird, just go for a drive anywhere in germany and you'll see people staying around 2 seconds apart (unless there is heavy traffic), using the correct lane, paying attention and not cutting eachother up.

What a bunch of freaks.

[drakkie]

Bah your just jealous because SUVs don't fit on ur tiny roads :p

Also try fitting 5 people, a dog, and camping supplies in freaking 206 or whatever you guys drive over there.

Until then us north americans will continue to buy large cars, ruin the environment and laugh at your sub 1 litre engines.

:D

Believe me, I have seen that on the road ! Agreed, the cars were equipped with "roof boxes" and completely filled, but it is possible :D

Plus we rarely havely sub 1 liter cars nowadays.. Even my own car has an incredible 997 cc :p

Not talking about the comfort though..

[clutch-monkey]

See what I mean?

Of course millions of people fit 5 people, a dog + luggage into their vehicles - I've done it on many an occasion.

Never actually "needed" an SUV though...

Do all American's like this think that people in Europe never go on vacation, take people with them, carry large objects around, etc, etc?
i dunno about americans, but we keep a 4X4 around for when we have to tow the boat, trailer, car trailer plus car, or just drive in a westerly direction.
:D

[john14]

That's a very good blog, drakkie.

Overall, many Americans and Australians love large cars and SUV's. Every day, I see dozens of Japanese, Korean and European SUV's. For example, today I saw 5 Porsche Cayenne's, 3 BMW X5's and countless Japanese Toyota Landcruiser's and Honda CRV's. I believe SUV's account for approximately 20% of all passenger vehicle sales in Australia and more than 20% of all passenger vehicle sales in the United States of America.

By the way, the vast majority of Australians refer to a SUV as a large four-wheel drive or a luxury four-wheel drive if they are referring to a Porsche Cayenne Turbo, BMW X5, Mercedes-Benz ML500 etc...

At the end of the day, the simple fact is Americans and Australians have a different attitude in relation to SUV's and large cars... compared to Europeans.

You won't find many diesel passenger vehicles in America or Australia either.

[Sauc3]

I have a legitimate need for an SUV. *shock horror*

Yesterday I took the Discovery, 5 guys and 4 bikes (two outside two inside) and went off-roading. I'd like to see the little 206 go on rock crawls and carry the amount of bikes/gear that we had.
I do not carry a trailer behind the car because I am not experienced enough to drive for periods of time with a trailer, plus it wouldn't handle the off-road. I didn't carry the bikes on the roof because - being a tall car already - off-roading through a forest, you come across trees which hang low and would knock the bikes off the roof.

There is simply no way that 5 people, 4 bikes, body armour, helmets, camera gear, backpacks, food and change of clothes would fit in your every day car. Even if it were outfitted to the specific needs of the owner.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

....However your needs put you in the minority of SUV owners - most of them buy the car for the higher line of vision and ease of entry/egress.

That and they look sooooooo cute!

[jediali]

Believe me, I have seen that on the road ! Agreed, the cars were equipped with "roof boxes" and completely filled, but it is possible :D

Plus we rarely havely sub 1 liter cars nowadays.. Even my own car has an incredible 997 cc :p

Not talking about the comfort though..


drakkie's touring mode:

[Coventrysucks]

i dunno about americans, but we keep a 4X4 around for when we have to tow the boat, trailer, car trailer plus car, or just drive in a westerly direction.
:D

I've driven in a westerly direction many times without needing an SUV.


4 bikes... in your every day car.

I know someone who used to transport his bike in his car.

Great if you want a car full of dirt.

I'm not saying that there are not times when an SUV can be useful, just that more often than not people make an excuse that they "need" the vehicle to do something which millions of others manage to do without one.

[McReis]

drakkie's touring mode:
Is it me or the dog is trying to brake? :D

[NSXType-R]

You know what? This argument has been going on and on and it's gotten silly. Yes, people may not need SUV's on a daily basis, but it certainly comes in handy for the people who do need its capabilities that normal cars don't have (ride height, rock crawling capabilities). Yes, one can get by with a normal car (wagon, small displacement motor, whatever you want) with snow tires and stuff but if you were forging 6 feet of snow, I doubt that would work. You guys can keep arguing this stuff till you're blue in the face but people's opinions are so entrenched that no matter what no one will change. Some people just really like SUV's and some people just don't. Can't we just leave it at that?

Now, for my opinion. :D

Yes I do believe SUV's are unnecessary. 95% of people don't use them for the way they are supposed to be used. They are highly unsafe (rollovers and whatnot) but when you really do use it for the way it's supposed to be used, then it really excels. I won't be needing an SUV however for my purposes, so a wagon (Legacy or Impreza) is all I need. And for those who do need an SUV, so be it.

[Ferrer]

but when you really do use it for the way it's supposed to be used, then it really excels.
Except if you have a BMW X3, or a Lexus RX 300, or many others...

[Coventrysucks]

rock crawling capabilities... 6 feet of snow

That explains their popularity in city centres then.


Some people just really like SUV's and some people just don't.

I don't have a problem with people liking SUVs and buying them, I just think people are complete idiots for fabricating these pathetic cardboard excuses as "justification" to no one in particular.

"Oh, I need my huge SUV because this one time I had to carry, like, 2 people and an apple 6 foot across a gravel driveway..."

[NSXType-R]

That explains their popularity in city centres then.



I don't have a problem with people liking SUVs and buying them, I just think people are complete idiots for fabricating these pathetic cardboard excuses as "justification" to no one in particular.

"Oh, I need my huge SUV because this one time I had to carry, like, 2 people and an apple 6 foot across a gravel driveway..."

I never said that everyone buys SUVs for their real uses. I'm sure plenty of people buy it even if they don't need their capabilities. I'm just saying that when you really need them for their real uses they really do excel. Plenty of people buy them just to show off. And so what if you don't like them because of that? They have the money to do so and they can do whatever they want as long as they don't bother me. Sure, they're not the best of choices for mundane, everyday driving and they might not be the most efficient of machines, but is that up to you to decide?

Oh, and you should read the section that I labeled "My Opinion" as well.

[NSXType-R]

Except if you have a BMW X3, or a Lexus RX 300, or many others...

That's more like a crossover, they don't count. :D

[Vaigra]

That's more like a crossover, they don't count. :D
How are either cross-overs?
The RX300 is huge. A crossover is something more like a VW Cross Polo, Audi Allroad etc.

[NSXType-R]

The RX300 is based on a Camry chassis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_RX300

[jediali]

How are either cross-overs?
The RX300 is huge. A crossover is something more like a VW Cross Polo, Audi Allroad etc.

the rx300 is hardly the most dedicated off-road choice, some would say the X5 is better but it has its air intake in the same place as the 5-series - low down in the chin spoiler, no use for wading. Should we see it as an advantage that 95% of SUVs bought that are not going to be used off road are evolving into purely road going (hence more efficient there), The xtrail and many others have switchable 2wd and 4wd to reduce friction when wd is not needed, this feature can only benefit the matter if no-one can convince these buyers that SUV's are wrong.

I personally dont advocate the silly self-cenred reasons people buy them though. If youve seen JC in family car 2000 youll know of the good bit of journalism he does to demonstrate that the so called benefits are all superficial.

[MRR]

Bah your just jealous because SUVs don't fit on ur tiny roads :p

Also try fitting 5 people, a dog, and camping supplies in freaking 206 or whatever you guys drive over there.

Until then us north americans will continue to buy large cars, ruin the environment and laugh at your sub 1 litre engines.

:D

Roof-rack?

[clutch-monkey]

I've driven in a westerly direction many times without needing an SUV.
if you drove any meaningful distance west you'd probably be in the atlantic :D

That explains their popularity in city centres then.
i agree with this - there is nothing as pointless as an X3 or a cayenne wallowing about in city traffic. Once i start using the mini i'll probably be crushed against a post box because some SUV wielded by a lipstick brandishing female couldn't see me.

[Coventrysucks]

Plenty of people buy them just to show off. And so what if you don't like them because of that?


I don't have a problem with people liking SUVs and buying them

:rolleyes:

[Volvoman]

there is nothing as pointless as an X3 or a cayenne wallowing about in city traffic.

I would just like to make an amendment to your statement here if you don't mind.....

There is nothing as pointless as an X3. Nothing more needs to be said.

Where I stand, I really like 4WDs and SUVs. (except for the X3). I don't own one though, only because I can't afford to run one yet. But as soon as I can afford one I will most likely be buying a Mazda Tribute or something along those lines. Why? Because I want one. For no other reason because of that. I have absolutely no need of an SUV. So does this make me one of your show offs anymore than if I were to drive an Aston Martin? Because it sounds to me that if these same people were to be driving a car they wouldn't be show offs even though an AM is probably 5 times as much money as your everyday SUV. If people were just that little, well OK, a lot more careful then we wouldn't be worried whether people drove a Yaris or a Patrol in the city.

Do I have a point? Well, yes actually. Who really gives a crap what you drive. If you want to drive a 997cc whatever, then feel free. Presonally I would like something that can reach freeway speeds before I get to my destination. But, if you want to drive a V8 Landcruiser, well it is you money after all. Spend up on whatever you want to drive. It is only money after all. You can't take it with you!!

[MRR]

I dont know about the X3 being that bad. It is smaller than the X5 with the same amount of storage space (and really same amount of room inside in my opinion). I drove one once and it really did not feel as big as it was.

If they sold a diesel version in the US it might (dare I say it) be a reasonable SUV. But they only sell it with petrol engines here until 2008 at the earliest.

[NSXType-R]

:rolleyes:

Is that against UCP rule #2 or something like that? :p :D

:confused:

What I'm trying to say is, people will buy them as long as they think they're "cool" and there's no stopping them. Sure there are better alternatives, but what can you do about it? Zilch. So why stress over it?

[NSXType-R]

if you drove any meaningful distance west you'd probably be in the atlantic :D

Very good point. :rolleyes:

For Volvoman- You posted what I wanted to say, only in a more clear and concise way. I'm not very eloquent with English. :D

[Coventrysucks]

what can you do about it? Zilch. So why stress over it?




I don't have a problem with people liking SUVs and buying them

:rolleyes:

[NSXType-R]

:D Darn it, I'm not allowed to have just a smilie.......

[nota]

For me the worst thing about SUVs and 4WDs is when you 'aquire' one of those tailgating morons - the intimidatory types who seem to have that irresistable need to latch their gigantasorous onto your rear bumper and impose themselves upon your personal safety for mile after mindless mile. I've had to deal with two of these twits so far this week and it's not even wednesday yet! :mad:

But looking on the bright side, even old clunker sedans (like mine eg) can comprehensively outhandle about 90% of these high-CoG leviathans on the road today, and imho this of course leads to the best thing about SUVs! :)

The important thing to realise about many of these habitual tailgaters who remain 'surgically attached' mere inches from the rear of your car is that they are not the ones who are really driving the train - rather their aggressive actions are usually of a subconcious nature and they have actually reduced themselves into being mindless followers. So in fact it is you who is in control of them! ;)

So after lulling these imperious road-bullies into the classic 'false sense of security' situation then all you need for a comprehensive return-serve is a half decent bend - decreasing radius corners are perfect, with bonus-points for off-camber. But on most bends the trick is simply to not lift off, just maintain your entry speed as you cut a smooth line while floating it through on a neutral throttle. The fun bit starts as you really crank on the G's through the apex - then grab a quick look in the mirror mid-corner to enjoy seeing the SUV's dramatic roll angle, tippy stance and especially that wide-eyed expression of the driver just as they're getting a real-time reality check as to their own bloody personal safety :D

If they survive the corner intact then there's further delight to be had in watching them drop right back away from your car, awoken from their torpor and scared out of their wits, never to bother you again :cool:

[NSXType-R]

For me the worst thing about SUVs and 4WDs is when you 'aquire' one of those tailgating morons - the intimidatory types who seem to have that irresistable need to latch their gigantasorous onto your rear bumper and impose themselves upon your personal safety for mile after mindless mile. I've had to deal with two of these twits so far this week and it's not even wednesday yet! :mad:

But looking on the bright side, even old clunker sedans (like mine eg) can comprehensively outhandle about 90% of these high-CoG leviathans on the road today, and imho this of course leads to the best thing about SUVs! :)


So very true. :D

Some of the quarter mile times are truly embarrassing. :D :D :D

[Ferrer]

For me the worst thing about SUVs and 4WDs is when you 'aquire' one of those tailgating morons - the intimidatory types who seem to have that irresistable need to latch their gigantasorous onto your rear bumper and impose themselves upon your personal safety for mile after mindless mile. I've had to deal with two of these twits so far this week and it's not even wednesday yet! :mad:
I think that's a general problem with people driving german cars... :(

[Rockefella]

What I don't like about America is that the select few, including myself, understand and appreciate the capabilities of smaller family cars, be it a coupe/sedan/estate/hatchback, but are drowned out by the overwhelming group of SUV lovin' good ol' Americans. I'm all for improved diesels and smaller city-friendly cars.. but I can't see it happening any time in the near future.

[Ferrer]

What I don't like about America is that the select few, including myself, understand and appreciate the capabilities of smaller family cars, be it a coupe/sedan/estate/hatchback, but are drowned out by the overwhelming group of SUV lovin' good ol' Americans. I'm all for improved diesels and smaller city-friendly cars.. but I can't see it happening any time in the near future.
But then why not buy large estates, or MPVs? I sometimes don't understand why some people buy one. Yes I know the argument of image, but still that's not very rational.

[nota]

I think that's a general problem with people driving german cars... :(
I drive a german car ........ ..... .... .. .




(its those motorised Spanish conquistadors you really have to worry about)

[NSXType-R]

But then why not buy large estates, or MPVs? I sometimes don't understand why some people buy one. Yes I know the argument of image, but still that's not very rational.

Americans are just generally excessive and want a "macho" image. Is an MPV just a minivan in European speak? The MPV gives an image of a soft soccer mom and large wagons don't seem macho, to them at least. Americans remember boring station wagons when they think about estates.

[Ferrer]

I drive a german car ........ ..... .... .. .




(its those motorised Spanish conquistadors you really have to worry about)
Well the thing is in a way I do too... :p

[Rockefella]

But then why not buy large estates, or MPVs? I sometimes don't understand why some people buy one. Yes I know the argument of image, but still that's not very rational.

I agree, they should buy MPV's and estates but the image of the SUV in America sits up on a golden pedestal, it's quite sad really. I guess it helps that America has big, open roads but to see people buying Range Rovers and decked out GL-klasse monsters to drive their kids to school is a bit silly.

[McReis]

I think that's a general problem with people driving german cars... :(
You still believe your car is British or do you tailgate? :D

[Rockefella]

Americans are just generally excessive and want a "macho" image. Is an MPV just a minivan in European speak? The MPV gives an image of a soft soccer mom and large wagons don't seem macho, to them at least. Americans remember boring station wagons when they think about estates.

Yep, which is why we should introduce (to quote George Bush) 'my fellow Americans' to wimpy estates like this. ;)


http://www.germancarfans.com/news/2040418.002/2040418.002.1M.jpg

[Ferrer]

You still believe your car is British or do you tailgate? :D
Yes I realised this after posting it... :p

Can I add they are mostly large and new... and ususally come from either Mercedes-Benz or BMW? ;)

[NSXType-R]

Well in a sense, we do have wimpy estates because the RS4 is only offered here in sedan form, which is a shame and the Impreza STI is only offered in sedan form as well. Then we're left with the Subaru Legacy estate (which is definitely cool but outgunned by a lot by the Audi if they were offered here) and the Volvos, which truly are boring. :p

And I'm not sure if the E63 AMG is offered in Wagon form. So yes, the bottom line is, our offerings truly suck. ;) Honda, Toyota and Nissan can easily bring over some MPVs and estates (their version of the Odyssey, the Honda Stream (?) etc.) from their JDM offerings, but they don't seem to have the inclination to do so. Label them as an Accord wagon and there we have a winner.

[Ferrer]

Well in a sense, we do have wimpy estates because the RS4 is only offered here in sedan form, which is a shame and the Impreza STI is only offered in sedan form as well. Then we're left with the Subaru Legacy estate (which is definitely cool but outgunned by a lot by the Audi if they were offered here) and the Volvos, which truly are boring. :p

And I'm not sure if the E63 AMG is offered in Wagon form. So yes, the bottom line is, our offerings truly suck. ;) Honda, Toyota and Nissan can easily bring over some MPVs and estates (their version of the Odyssey, the Honda Stream (?) etc.) from their JDM offerings, but they don't seem to have the inclination to do so. Label them as an Accord wagon and there we have a winner.
But isn't that because americans favour four door saloons? You also have those weird looking saloons based on superminis...

[NSXType-R]

Not really. American sedans really haven't been best selling since the death of the Taurus. That's when they had a heavy nosedive and came back a bit after Chrysler introduced large sedans with RWD and that's when GM rushed toward that opportunity. Estates really haven't been a preference. People just have a negative image of them, just like MPVs.

What's a supermini?

[Ferrer]

Not What's a supermini?
A city car. Something like a Toyota Yaris or a Renault Clio.

Altough judging by the sizes they are reaching they really should be called supermaxis or something...

[NSXType-R]

A city car. Something like a Toyota Yaris or a Renault Clio.

Altough judging by the sizes they are reaching they really should be called supermaxis or something...

The rise of superminis is because of Bush's modern Crusade. Gas prices have risen because of that and people are slowly moving away from SUVs, just ever so slowly. :p

To prove that point, Honda Civics are flying off the shelves and I think the Fit is getting marked up because of that same reason.

[ripper46]

the whole SUV thing should be abolished all together,when you want to go offroad, get a proper 4x4, when you need to transport lots of people and goods get an estate or a van. And on the safety front, SUV's are like nuclear weapons, if somebody gets one , everybody else has to get one too. As JC once said in the days when he said some stuff that made sense.

Furthermore,I live in a region where porsche cayennes are as frequent as the sun is in the desert. I love it when some of their cocky owners think they have a porsche and thus have a fast car. Over the past months I became used to a quiet driving style, allways obeying the speed limits etc,.. I don't pull away like a madman at the lights and I like this driving style , its safer , better for the car, wallet,.... BUT :) when a cayenne wants to play I will be glad to humiliate it then and there with my old golf :D .
it allready happened once, and I must admit me and my 55 year old volvo driving dad enyoyed it verry much :p

p.s no speed limits where exeeded during the event :D :cool:

[jediali]

SUV's are like nuclear weapons, if somebody gets one , everybody else has to get one too.

another JC fan! :)
maybe you didn't know he says this in his 'car years' series, but if you did you should quote him :)

[Ferrer]

another JC fan! :)
I'm not a particular JC fan and I hate SUVs too. ;)

[ripper46]

another JC fan! :)
maybe you didn't know he says this in his 'car years' series, but if you did you should quote him :)

your right, I changed it , however, I'm not a verry big fan nowadays. I don't know why , is it the money? but lately that man mostly talks rubbish:)

[jcp123]

Find me a little one that'll tow a 26' (~8m) pontoon boat and can putz around the sandy soil here when we do property maintenance, and I'll take it.

Yeah, that's what I thought. We'll keep the Ram.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Find me a little one that'll tow a 26' (~8m) pontoon boat and can putz around the sandy soil here when we do property maintenance, and I'll take it.

Yeah, that's what I thought. We'll keep the Ram.

You (and Daan) are the exceptions that prove the rule that the article is pointing out. Some people have a valid reason to have a big 4x4 vehicle, which is fine, but most don't and the reasons they give for having an SUV (sounds like snow and carrying lots of people are the main ones given) aren't valid as they could be easily fulfilled by a smaller AWD vehicle or MPV.

[clutch-monkey]

we have a 4x4 but it hardly get's driven, it's mainly for towing stuff. Besides, at 1900kg, its not far from the wieght of most larger sedans.