WRC to use production-based rally cars in 2012 [Archive]

Ferrer

06-28-2007, 03:11 PM

Thanks FIA for not only ruining F1, but ruining WRC
I personally think it's great idea, if I could be bothered with rallying. Maybe after all FIA will do something positive for rallying in the end.

What made rallying great is that in a way you knew that the cars your saw flying past you in a special stage where somewhat related to the cars you could see on the street. Plus that'll mean that manufacturers will have to make hairy chested homolgation specials. I can only regard it as positive.

Jack_Bauer

06-28-2007, 03:24 PM

Plus that'll mean that manufacturers will have to make hairy chested homolgation specials. I can only regard it as positive.

I don't think that will be the case. The rules will most likely stipulate that the cars will have to have sold thousands of units rather than the hundreds back in the Group B days, thus making them much more like 'normal' road-going cars. It's all designed to entice manufacturers back into the sport. They will want to be able to base their WRC cars on existing mass-produced, profitable cars for the sake of costs and to improve the marketability of the cars. If they have to produce a small amount of 'hairy chested', loss making homologation specials that bear no relevance to the mass-produced models the manufacturers won't touch it.

Matra et Alpine

06-28-2007, 03:37 PM

If they have to produce a small amount of 'hairy chested', loss making homologation specials that bear no relevance to the mass-produced models the manufacturers won't touch it.
agreed ....They don't want "hairy chested" GroupB cars again.
Expect to see homologation needs in the thousands.
Personaly a GREAT idea. Rallying has been destroyed by the top tier WRC. Anyone with enough money to bring a WRC down a level in events is guaranteed to clean up. MANY of the great stages can't be used for WRC cars because (1) they're too fast, (2) they're too tiring to the driver and (3) they destroy the stages !
This will enable good clubmen to be able to compete at world class level without the need for millions of $$$ of spnsorship and backing !!!

Ferrer

06-28-2007, 03:38 PM

I don't think that will be the case. The rules will most likely stipulate that the cars will have to have sold thousands of units rather than the hundreds back in the Group B days, thus making them much more like 'normal' road-going cars. It's all designed to entice manufacturers back into the sport. They will want to be able to base their WRC cars on existing mass-produced, profitable cars for the sake of costs and to improve the marketability of the cars. If they have to produce a small amount of 'hairy chested', loss making homologation specials that bear no relevance to the mass-produced models the manufacturers won't touch it.
Lancia Delta, Ford Sierra, BMW M3, Toyota Celica,... Basically Group A? ;)

If the Japanese can do it, and the Impreza and Lancer are here to prove it, the Europeans will have to do it as well.

pimento

06-28-2007, 05:12 PM

2ndclasscitizen

06-29-2007, 02:35 AM

Probably won't be that much change in speed. The hit in power will probably be regained by them getting back active AWD systems.

Ferrer

06-29-2007, 04:15 AM

Probably won't be that much change in speed. The hit in power will probably be regained by them getting back active AWD systems.
But then what's the point in production based rally cars? :confused:

scottie300z

06-29-2007, 08:20 AM

Usually i dont like step backwards in tech, but if this brings the sport back to better coverage and regains manufact. than im for it.

Cotterik

06-29-2007, 08:34 AM

this is a bad idea. production-based rally is what lower-class rallying is all about. people who can only afford stock EVO's and put a rollcage in then rally them. WRC is supposed to be the pinnacle of world rallying. With these new rules it will be just like the rest. Its not exactly going to attract more audiences either. well done FIA.

togos452

06-29-2007, 02:17 PM

What do WRC cars share with road cars?

dydzi

06-29-2007, 03:02 PM

What do WRC cars share with road cars?

usually, a windshield, sometimes door panels are the same too...

scottie300z

06-29-2007, 03:19 PM

usually, a windshield, sometimes door panels are the same too...

and the badge.

Ferrer

06-29-2007, 06:09 PM

usually, a windshield, sometimes door panels are the same too...

and the badge.
Nothing important though...

Cotterik

06-29-2007, 07:57 PM

2ndclasscitizen

06-29-2007, 11:49 PM

But then what's the point in production based rally cars? :confused:

Reducing costs. The active AWD systems help a lot. Though I could be wrong about the speed, it just depends how much modifications they allow to the cars.

which is what makes it so special. anybody who's nobody can buy an Sti WRX, buy some livery and install a rollcage then take it to the welsh hills to rally. WRC is supposed to represent the highest class rally cars. The inspiring days of Group B obviously mean nothing to the FIA. ugh..

Not really. A full World GrpN car is fairly different to a street STi or Evo. I've been in a Prodrive-built World GrpN STi, it was mental. And don't you remember that the WRC used to be GrpA, with stuff like the Evo6 running rampant across the world's forests?

Zytek_Fan

06-29-2007, 11:57 PM

Not really. A full World GrpN car is fairly different to a street STi or Evo. I've been in a Prodrive-built World GrpN STi, it was mental. And don't you remember that the WRC used to be GrpA, with stuff like the Evo6 running rampant across the world's forests?

If they go back to Group A type cars, I'll be fine with it, but Group N is too slow.

fpv_gtho

06-30-2007, 01:56 AM

Basically, Group N. The cars already in the ARC, Asia-Pacific Rally, all that. It'd be nice if they allowed units like the Group N-P they invented here for the Corollas, but that does pretty much mean manufacturers can make one-offs again. Just even less mental ones.

The Corollas are also running under Super 2000 locally, along with the Fiestas, and ive heard that there'll be something like that in the new rules. That should allow more manufacturers than Subaru and Mitsubishi to be competitive.

Ferrer

06-30-2007, 02:46 AM

which is what makes it so special. anybody who's nobody can buy an Sti WRX, buy some livery and install a rollcage then take it to the welsh hills to rally. WRC is supposed to represent the highest class rally cars. The inspiring days of Group B obviously mean nothing to the FIA. ugh..
Luckily. Group B was simply too dangerous. A return to 70's style of rallying would be just perfect.

Reducing costs. The active AWD systems help a lot. Though I could be wrong about the speed, it just depends how much modifications they allow to the cars.
I think you meant standarized four wheel drive systems, not active ones which are lot more complicated and therefore expensive. I see your point then.

Matra et Alpine

06-30-2007, 03:59 AM

which is what makes it so special. anybody who's nobody can buy an Sti WRX, buy some livery and install a rollcage then take it to the welsh hills to rally. WRC is supposed to represent the highest class rally cars. The inspiring days of Group B obviously mean nothing to the FIA. ugh..
yeah but what built Rallying STRENGTH that the GroupB stemmed from and WRC is under-pinned by ARE the cars that were the "same" as you bought and gave everyone a chance to rally them. Back then MILLIONS would go to see the RAC rally !! LOTS of enthusiasts. Every university would have a very large and active rallying club. Each district woudl have many local rally clubs. There were rally events every weekend and often mid week too !
You lose that when it costs £200,000 to have a chance of competing :(
Those were the "inspiring" days of rallying :)

2ndclasscitizen

06-30-2007, 05:01 AM

I think you meant standarized four wheel drive systems, not active ones which are lot more complicated and therefore expensive. I see your point then.

No, I meant the active ones. While they may be more complicated, they're not more expensive on a production-based rally car, as they all already have them stock.

Ferrer

06-30-2007, 05:03 AM

No, I meant the active ones. While they may be more complicated, they're not more expensive on a production-based rally car, as they all already have them stock.
But then why go the production way for rally cars and then grace them with complicated four wheel drive systems? It doesn't make much sense, does it?

Anyway, what we need is rear wheel drive back in rallying... :)

Matra et Alpine

06-30-2007, 07:26 AM

No, I meant the active ones. While they may be more complicated, they're not more expensive on a production-based rally car, as they all already have them stock.
The active front and rear diffs were banned in WRC.
Only the centre is allowed ... these are STILL very expensive to develop and setup ( fullly computer controlled )
I'd prefer to see NO control on the diffs in competition as I think it woudl go someway to levelling the 2WD v 4WD differential (pun intended:))

Mustang

06-30-2007, 09:49 AM

yeah but what built Rallying STRENGTH that the GroupB stemmed from and WRC is under-pinned by ARE the cars that were the "same" as you bought and gave everyone a chance to rally them. Back then MILLIONS would go to see the RAC rally !! LOTS of enthusiasts. Every university would have a very large and active rallying club. Each district woudl have many local rally clubs. There were rally events every weekend and often mid week too !
You lose that when it costs £200,000 to have a chance of competing :(
Those were the "inspiring" days of rallying :)

http://i79.imagethrust.com/i/1199060/vatanen1.jpg

Bring it back :D look at the crowds here, shows how much people loved it back then

vatenan in '81 i think round dolby

Matra et Alpine

06-30-2007, 10:52 AM

and not just large crowds in one place ... BUT smaller groups many miles into a stage :)http://www.smithmaps.fsnet.co.uk/imagesgrx195d/66racgrx195d.jpg

JRodrigues

07-05-2007, 10:22 AM

http://i79.imagethrust.com/i/1199060/vatanen1.jpg

Bring it back :D look at the crowds here, shows how much people loved it back then

vatenan in '81 i think round dolby

WRC - 2000 - thousands of people..

http://www.swrt.com/img_gallery/794215699.jpg

togos452

08-10-2007, 09:49 PM

WRC used to have 6 different cars, but now has 3. Were the events in the wrong locations for teams and sponsors?

FIA World Rally Championship - Socio-Economic Impact (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/August/020807-02.html)

Matra et Alpine

08-11-2007, 12:05 AM

WRC used to have 6 different cars, but now has 3. Were the events in the wrong locations for teams and sponsors?
The research will be interesting but the answer is simpler :)
Toyota ... focus on F1
Mitsubishi ..... losing revenue
Hyundai ..... never really had the revenue
Citroen .... no point having two from the same company
Renault ..... focus on F1
Saab/Volvo .... motorsport not seen as representing the new company image
Chrysler ..... yeah RIGHT :)
GM ..... oh dear call a doctor I need someone to stich my sides up :D
M-B ..... focus on F1
BMW ..... focus on F1

Jeez I think I'll apply to the FIA for a research grant and sit on my ass for a year :)

Zytek_Fan

08-11-2007, 12:11 AM

Don't forget Skoda.

2ndclasscitizen

08-11-2007, 12:34 AM

The research will be interesting but the answer is simpler :)
Toyota ... focus on F1

Already has incredibly successful prototype AWD Corolla's in GrpN-P and S2000 running in the ARC, so it's already got a foundation to build upon.

Lets Gekiga In

08-11-2007, 02:06 AM

Already has incredibly successful prototype AWD Corolla's in GrpN-P and S2000 running in the ARC, so it's already got a foundation to build upon.
Toyota still needs to focus on F1, believe me. Their current results in F1 don't even make them second tier.

2ndclasscitizen

08-11-2007, 02:37 AM

But they have an already successful rally program that could be used to create success on the international rally championships by moving to moving to into the World GrpN or S2000 championships.

Lets Gekiga In

08-11-2007, 02:48 AM

Not to be super strict, but can you not abbreviate Super 2000 as S2000, for obvious reasons?

Ferrer

08-11-2007, 03:30 AM

The research will be interesting but the answer is simpler :)
Toyota ... focus on F1
Mitsubishi ..... losing revenue
Hyundai ..... never really had the revenue
Citroen .... no point having two from the same company
Renault ..... focus on F1
Saab/Volvo .... motorsport not seen as representing the new company image
Chrysler ..... yeah RIGHT :)
GM ..... oh dear call a doctor I need someone to stich my sides up :D
M-B ..... focus on F1
BMW ..... focus on F1

Jeez I think I'll apply to the FIA for a research grant and sit on my ass for a year :)
I think the answer is even simpler than that. FIA ruined rallying, no one finds rallying interesting anymore since it's a sport for pussies, and manufacturers acnkowledging that go away from rallying into other more interesting (for their wallet) motorsports.

2ndclasscitizen

08-11-2007, 06:04 AM

Not to be super strict, but can you not abbreviate Super 2000 as S2000, for obvious reasons?

No, because this is a discussion about rallying.

fpv_gtho

08-11-2007, 06:41 AM

Arent Suzuki going to be stepping up next year?

Lets Gekiga In

08-11-2007, 08:12 AM

No, because this is a discussion about rallying.
Well, everytime I read you writing S2000 I automatically assume Honda S2000 and I won't assume it's Super 2000. I really hope you don't use the term S2000 to refer to Super 2000 in the Asian car forum.

fpv_gtho

08-11-2007, 08:15 AM

Theres also a set of s2000 touring car rules though

2ndclasscitizen

08-12-2007, 04:38 AM

Arent Suzuki going to be stepping up next year?

Yeah, they're using the SX4 as a base for it.

JRodrigues

08-12-2007, 01:15 PM

Suzuki will enter next year with the SX4 (it's first rally should be this year) and Mitsubishi probably in 2009, again with the Lancer.

Lets Gekiga In

08-12-2007, 01:53 PM

That's good to hear both Suzuki and Mitsubishi will be in WRC.

JRodrigues

08-13-2007, 12:07 PM

WRC - 2000 - thousands of people..

http://www.swrt.com/img_gallery/794215699.jpg

Complete madness directly from Portugal :mad:

YouTube - Rali de Portugal 1997 - Sainz Moya "Animales" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW0j04f1JOU)

Ferrer

08-13-2007, 01:05 PM

Complete madness directly from Portugal :mad:

YouTube - Rali de Portugal 1997 - Sainz Moya "Animales" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW0j04f1JOU)
I didn't know that the late 90's were as bad as the 80's... :eek:

JRodrigues

08-13-2007, 03:52 PM

I didn't know that the late 90's were as bad as the 80's... :eek:

I think that was the first SS of the rally and it was shortened a lot, to 1,7km, so all the people that were on the original piece of road, was concentrated on those 1,7 km.. This was what we got. It was later cancelled, officially due to problems in Makinen's car. (that's the information I have, don't know if it's true or not)

togos452

08-14-2007, 02:29 PM

I think the answer is even simpler than that. FIA ruined rallying, no one finds rallying interesting anymore since it's a sport for pussies, and manufacturers acnkowledging that go away from rallying into other more interesting (for their wallet) motorsports.

How about the Dakar Rally?

Ferrer

08-14-2007, 05:00 PM

How about the Dakar Rally?
Cars aren't entered. Off-roaders (SUVs) are.

togos452

08-15-2007, 11:01 PM

The FIA controls the Dakar Rally. Is that a race for pussies?

Euromilhões Lisboa Dakar 2008: homepage (http://www.dakar.com/indexus.html)

Subaru seems committed to WRC

SPEEDtv.com | Rally / Off-Road | WRC: Subaru Shows First Images of 2008 Impreza | by Autocar staff | Championship Rally and Off-Road racing news. | WRC, Dakar, SCCA, SCORE, Pikes Peak, more. | McCrae, Gronholm, Tagland, FIA, Loeb, Pastrana, Dakar, X (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/rally/39463/)

Zytek_Fan

08-15-2007, 11:09 PM

The way I see it, WRC needs more stellar drivers like Loeb and Gronholm and more manufacturers to fight for victory to make it exciting again.

Lets Gekiga In

08-16-2007, 01:18 AM

The way I see it, WRC needs more stellar drivers like Loeb and Gronholm and more manufacturers to fight for victory to make it exciting again.
Yeah, I really think their problem right now is the lack of manufacturers. I would definitely like to see more. Heck, I just wish WRC in general would be on U.S. television.

fpv_gtho

08-16-2007, 05:59 AM

I'll always find something exciting where theyre going through forests at up to 200km/h

Ferrer

08-16-2007, 07:22 AM

The FIA controls the Dakar Rally. Is that a race for pussies?

Euromilhões Lisboa Dakar 2008: homepage (http://www.dakar.com/indexus.html)
Probably not, but the Dakar isn't rallying.

2ndclasscitizen

08-16-2007, 11:11 PM

Probably not, but the Dakar isn't rallying.

Explain.

Ferrer

08-17-2007, 02:23 AM

Explain.
It's a raid with off roaders over sand dunes (amongst other terrains). While Rallying is done with cars over many terrains, but no sand dunes, including snow and tarmac. They are two separate motorsports as far as I'm concerned.

Cyco

08-17-2007, 02:27 AM

Why does rallying specifically exclude sand dunes?

Ferrer

08-17-2007, 02:38 AM

Why does rallying specifically exclude sand dunes?
Well I've never seen a rally with sand dunes (meaning in the desert). But maybe I'm wrong. I'd still consider them two diferent kind of motorsports though.

Matra et Alpine

08-17-2007, 03:29 AM

Rally stages are clear routes and penalties may be applied for cutting corners etc etc.
Raid is point to point, only some areas requre adherence to stage routes, beyond that make your way as you wish -- kind of the only way to handle dunes :D

Lets Gekiga In

08-17-2007, 03:53 AM

I really miss the Safari Rally at Kenya.

Ferrer

08-17-2007, 04:07 AM

togos452

01-04-2008, 10:10 PM

Just twelve cars for 2008

2008 FIA World Rally Championship (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2008/January/040108-02.html)

sprale

08-18-2009, 02:23 PM

I really like the idea that I could possibly afford a road-going version of a racing car, even if it's not a rocket. I'm really impressed with the WRX and the STi version of the Impreza rally car. I'd also like to see more teams have the ability to race, it might lead to more diverse competition and coverage.