288 GTO Competitor?

[fisetdavid26]

I was having an argument with Cyco whether or not the Porsche 959 was a competitor to the Ferrari 288 GTO. Cyco says it wasn't, I say it was. The 288 GTO was produced from 1984 to 1985, and the 959 from 1986 to 1990. In my opinion the 959 was Porsche's answer to the 288 GTO, thus a 288 GTO competitor. Cyco thinks the 959 competitor was rather the Ferrari F40, which was introduced in 1987. To me, the F40 was just Ferrari's answer to the 959, therefore the 959 both competed with the 288 GTO and the F40.

What do you guys think?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

No.

the F40 was not just Ferrari's answer to the 959 - it was introduced to mark 40 years of Ferrari's existence.

the 959 was introduced to compete in Group B. of course we know what happened to that, so they built it into a road car.

They may have been out about the same time - with similar price tags. but i'd hardly call them competitors.

[fisetdavid26]

the F40 was not just Ferrari's answer to the 959 - it was introduced to mark 40 years of Ferrari's existence.
Yeah, I know it wasn't only the answer to the 959. What I mean is that when it was released it was inevitably compared to the 959, or made a competitor.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Sure...inevitable comparisons are.....well, you know.

but it wasn't built after Ferrari saw the 959 and said "hey.....let's beat that".

[Leo_Ant]

As said before, 959 might be compared to Delta s4, 205 t16 or RS200, but not to any Ferrari of that period. F40 was compared to the 959, but neither of their series versions was an answer to any other existing car. They were launched by the same time and both were quite fast and expensive. That's all. Comparing a 288 GTO or an F40 to the 959 just doesn't make sense, in my opinion. By the way, and also in my opinion, the 959 remains the most incredible car ever built, by its technology, performance and design. But, as I stated, that's just my (probably irracional and certainly pashionate) opinion.


Ferrari saw the 959 and said "hey.....let's beat that".Which, by the way...they didn't...

[pimento]

The 959 was built to be Porsche's technological Tour de Force. It was comfortable, possible to live with, and.. such. The Ferarris were stripped out to go fast. There was a 288 Evo created for possible Group B contention, but obviously that didn't happen. Essentially completely different machines created to go really fast in the vein that the repective companies like to exhibit themselves.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Which, by the way...they didn't...

I'd read the whole comment again. ;)

[NicFromLA]

I wouldn't use the word "competitor." "Competitor" implies Ferrari was trying to beat Porsche with sales or on the track when the fact is both the 959 and the F40 sold very well and, as far as I know, never met on the track. Further more, the idea of the 959 was to create a car with world beating performance and everyday civility, while the idea of the F40 was to give Ferrari's customers a racecar experience for the road. That being said, I do think the Porsche 959 inspired Ferrari to really push their technological limits in creating the F40.

[Leo_Ant]

I'd read the whole comment again.

I meant that, in my opinion, they didn't beat the 959, also because they weren't even competitors. Sorry if I can't make myself clear:(. It's just to late in Portugal right now to insist on thinking:D

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Thats fine - i just didn't want to be misquoted :)

[Coventrysucks]

Both the 959 and 288 GTO were intended to compete in Group B sports car racing; hence the "O" - the road car was the homologation for the intended racer.

So, yes, if Group B sports cars had gone ahead they would have been direct competitors.

[henk4]

Versions of the 959 did the Paris-Dakar...
Both cars were intended for Group B. Ferrari had some earlier rallye forays with 308/328 models...

[clutch-monkey]

so the 959 was going to compete with the 288 in group B, but instead competed withthe F40 on the roads?

[henk4]

so the 959 was going to compete with the 288 in group B, but instead competed withthe F40 on the roads?

The F40 was basically a raw variant of the 288 GTO. From the latter they built about 3-4 Evolutione versions, which formed the basis for the F40. While the Porsche was a rather civilised but very fast and competent road car, the F40 was more of a track car for the road....and sold better than the Porsche...

[NicFromLA]

so the 959 was going to compete with the 288 in group B, but instead competed withthe F40 on the roads?

Bingo.

[Ferrer]

Versions of the 959 did the Paris-Dakar...
Both cars were intended for Group B. Ferrari had some earlier rallye forays with 308/328 models...
And the track racing version, the 961, won the Group B class in Le Mans '87. The F40 and the 959 (961) could have met in the track as well, if Porsche had insisted with it.

Regarding Ferrari's rallying history only the 308 competed, being homologated in Group 3 & 4 from 1975. Then in the early 80's Jean-Claude Andruet and the french importer CH. Pozzi took interest in it and did a pair of seasons in the ERC and some WRC events mixed in, its best result being 2nd overall in the '81 Tour de Corse. Bjorn Waldegaard even drove one in the '83 Sanremo Rally, with out much luck. By then the QV version had been homologated in Group B, but it was no where near as succesful as the other earlier variants. And the definitive cancellation of Group B for 1987 drew to a close Ferrari's rallying efforts.

[nopassn]

The 288 GTO Evoluzione was intended to compete in group B... so, really, the 959 and GTO Evo are competitors...

[LandQuail]

I'm still not convinced old Enzo had any conception whatsoever of what was going on outside the factory gates in the 80s. It'd be hard, in my opinion, to say anything Ferrari did in that decade was a response to anything anybody else was doing.

They built the 288 GTO because it made sense to do so. Ferrari haven't ever really cared if there was or wasn't a race one of their racecars could compete in, and at least once Enzo changed the rules, Captain Kirk-style, to get one of his cars into competition (250 GTO).

When Carrol Shelby dusted the GTOs with what he recently described as an old chassis, a big engine and some hillbilly know-how, Enzo basically lost heart in sports car racing.

I'm rambling, but long story short, Ferrari seemed to do their own thing under Enzo. If one of his designers had brought him a photo of a 959, he probably would have muttered something curt and deeply Italian and ordered the designer fed to the wolves. I don't think the old man gave a **** about what ze Germans were doing, and I don't think anybody at Ferrari gave a **** about anything unless specifically told to do so by Enzo. And all he gave a **** about was making cars with his name all over them, in his way.

[Ferrer]

They built the 288 GTO because it made sense to do so. Ferrari haven't ever really cared if there was or wasn't a race one of their racecars could compete in, and at least once Enzo changed the rules, Captain Kirk-style, to get one of his cars into competition (250 GTO).
This is more or less true, but in fact and if I'm not mistaken it was Porsche who first profited from this "rule" introduced by the FIA which allowed to change the car retaining very few components of the original with the 356B Carrera-Abarth GTL in 1960. Then Ferrari came in 1962 with the 250 GTO and I believe the Shelby Daytona Coupes were also built under this rule.