Family car

[Ferrer]

Well in January we'll be buying a new family car, effectively waving goodbye to the Mini. It's been a great car, but it's too thirsty and expensive to run. Anyway here are the contenders:

Lancia Ypsilon Sport (Diesel, 105bhp, 5-speed, 17.500€)

FOR

-Cheap
-Frugal
-Well equiped

AGAINST

-MPVish looks
-Not as much car as the others
-No xenons available at all

Alfa Romeo 147 1.6 TS 3dr (Petrol, 105bhp, 5-speed, 19.000€)

FOR

-Nice interior, driving position
-Practical
-Attention to detail

AGAINST

-Dated
-Thirsty
-Bad manoeuvrability

Volvo C30 1.6i (Petrol, 100bhp, 5-speed, 20.700€)

FOR

-Stylish
-Modern
-Safe

AGAINST

-Expensive
-Slowest
-Heaviest

So which one is going to be?

[Revo]

My vote goes for the Lancia Y. It's a perfect city car (if that's what your family is looking for) - nimble, small, fast, presumedly most economical. Also, it is most unusual looking and cheapest.

Naturally avoid black color, get a nice two tone combo with light interior.

Good luck with your decision.

[The_Canuck]

I like the Alfa the best, seems well equiped and nice looking.

[Ferrer]

My vote goes for the Lancia Y. It's a perfect city car (if that's what your family is looking for) - nimble, small, fast, presumedly most economical. Also, it is most unusual looking and cheapest.

Naturally avoid black color, get a nice two tone combo with light interior.

Good luck with your decision.
Well the thing is here we are limited with choices. Only the 105bhp diesel (when other markets have a 90bhp diesel and 95bhp petrol) and when it comes to colors only black or b-colore yellow and grey. And yellow is a big no-no.

[Cyco]

VE Commodore :p

[Ferrer]

VE Commodore :p
Send me one... ;)

[M_M]

Why "Bad manoeuvrability" as a weak point for the Alfa?:confused:

[Ferrer]

Why "Bad manoeuvrability" as a weak point for the Alfa?:confused:
It has the biggest turning circle of them all.

[M_M]

It has the biggest turning circle of them all.

Ah, ok, for a second I thought you were talking about its driving dynamic, so I got a bit confused...
Anyway, I think I'd pick the Ypsilon, it's quite cute, same size (more or less) as the Mini (so I think you shouldn't have problem fitting in it...), quite powerful yet economical.
The 147 was ruined by the facelift - but if you pick one with the "Pieno Fiore" Leather (I don't know if the name remains the same in every country) interior, I don't think it would be a bad choice.
The Volvo C30... well, quite a good-looking car, but it MUST be ordered with color-matching bumpers!
But tell us, what are your family's priorities regarding a car?

[Rockefella]

I really don't know anything about those 3 cars seeing as none of them are offered in America, but from what's there, I think the Lancia's your best choice.

[Ferrer]

But tell us, what are your family's priorities regarding a car?
It's got to be frugal, decent dynamics, able to do 20,000km a year without too much fuss (50/50 city/motorway), good quality and have something especial. So no a Toyota won't do. ;)

[M_M]

It's got to be frugal, decent dynamics, able to do 20,000km a year without too much fuss (50/50 city/motorway), good quality and have something especial. So no a Toyota won't do. ;)

For that amount of kms, it's worthy considering even 1,6 petrol engine, you're right.
If you look to quality, I think you should pick the Volvo... I don't know, I just don't like the way the plastics of the Ypsilon's interior looks... They simply seems economical while they're not so bad.
Alfa's interior obviously got a bit old but it's not that bad - but sometimes there are too many gaps between plastics.
The Volvo has surely something special, like the design (in primis) and the interior - even though is the exact copy of the S40/V50 interior, and besides that central console always looks good...
How many people in the family? Because the Volvo can seats only four (single seats even in the rear), as probably the Ypsilon - but that's much shorter.
Maybe tomorrow I can think to some other alternatives...
...and LOL to the "a Toyota won't do"...

[Waugh-terfall]

I'd say Volvo. Are the 1.6D SE or 1.8FlexiFuel SE out of the equation?

Second to that I'd say the Lancia Ypsillon.

Are the Punto Sporting and Panda 100HP's not even being considered?

[Ferrer]

How many people in the family? Because the Volvo can seats only four (single seats even in the rear), as probably the Ypsilon - but that's much shorter.
2 mainly, occasionally 3.

[Ferrer]

I'd say Volvo. Are the 1.6D SE or 1.8FlexiFuel SE out of the equation?
Yup, too expensive.

Are the Punto Sporting and Panda 100HP's not even being considered?
We considered the Panda but we thought it'd be too basic. The Punto just isn't special enough and I find the interior just rubbish.

[Waugh-terfall]

Oh right, yeah, I see why now, just seen on the Volvo UK site that the C30 1.6D is £2,000 more expensive than the petrol equivalent... Is the new Corsa/Corsa OPC too expensive over there too or is not that great?

[Mr.Tiv]

My limited understanding of the european car market leads me to believe that the Lancia is a good bet. I, personally, wouldn't want a diesel anything though, but, then again, I payed $2.64/gal this morning-randomly cheap gas makes for a good day.

[Ferrer]

Oh right, yeah, I see why now, just seen on the Volvo UK site that the C30 1.6D is £2,000 more expensive than the petrol equivalent... Is the new Corsa/Corsa OPC too expensive over there too or is not that great?
It's expensive and chavtastic. Not very frugal either. Great seats though.

My limited understanding of the european car market leads me to believe that the Lancia is a good bet. I, personally, wouldn't want a diesel anything though, but, then again, I payed $2.64/gal this morning-randomly cheap gas makes for a good day.
I'm not keen on diesels either, but a) doing in excess of 20,000km a year with a supercharged Mini is painful for your wallet and b) the Lancia is only available with the diesel here.

[Waugh-terfall]

HAHA, I love that, 'chavtastic'.

Would you not consider a Skoda Octavia vRS TDI? Fantastic value for money, you've just got to overcome the brand image. Though I think it may well be over your budget..

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

You know how I feel about Alfas, Albert. So buy one. :)

Having test-driven the 1.6 147, I can vouch for it being a great drive. It's pretty quick, and feels wonderful. Looks excellent, and the interior is lovely- where you'll be spending most of the time viewing the car from!

I know manoeuverability is an issue, being in a city, but it'll be worth it.

[Rockefella]

You know how I feel about Alfas, Albert. So buy one. :)

Having test-driven the 1.6 147, I can vouch for it being a great drive. It's pretty quick, and feels wonderful. Looks excellent, and the interior is lovely- where you'll be spending most of the time viewing the car from!

I know manoeuverability is an issue, being in a city, but it'll be worth it.

Isn't it's thirst a problem though, which Albert stated was the reason they were ditching the Mini?

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

Isn't it's thirst a problem though, which Albert stated was the reason they were ditching the Mini?

It won't be as thirsty as a forced induction hot hatchback, it's just less economical than the diesel-powered Lancia and maybe the fatter, less entertaining Volvo.

The average MINI Cooper S gives around 26mpg driving it everywhere- in a city, you can expect that to fall way below par. The Alfa has a combined consumption of 34mpg. It's just poor for the class, when you consider that the Golf GT (with an extra 65bhp) manages around 38mpg.

[cmcpokey]

The average MINI Cooper S gives around 26mpg driving it everywhere- in a city, you can expect that to fall way below par.

i disagree with that... i absolutely flog my car daily, and i have a combined of 26. so if you drive it like a sane person it is definitely possible to get over 30.

[whiteballz]

Anyone else confused by the definition of "family" car here?

[Spastik_Roach]

Yes but thats because where we come from a family car can actually fit 5 people not about 3.5 :D

[h22a]

c30 bro, great car. Handles really well but im not sure on kw's as aus spec c30's are 2.4L(125kw) base spec.
Alfa's are unreliable piles of expensive trash.

[Ferrer]

Isn't it's thirst a problem though, which Albert stated was the reason they were ditching the Mini?
Yes, in fact the average fuel consumption for the Alfa is 8,1l/100km (29 US mpg) and the average fuel consumption figure ofr the Mini 8,6l/100km (27 US mpg). They are really close and the Alfa performance, well isn't exactly quick, 0-100km/h in 11"3 seconds. By comparison the Lancia does 4,7l/100km (50 US mpg) and does 0-100km/h in 10"3 seconds. Objectively when it comes to performance and fuel economy the Lancia is clearly better, but it has a less sophisticated suspension than the Alfa Romeo and it isn't as much car.

i disagree with that... i absolutely flog my car daily, and i have a combined of 26. so if you drive it like a sane person it is definitely possible to get over 30.
I reckon I have a heavyish right foot. On a 100km trip at an average of 146km/h in the motorway I averaged 12,5l/100km (19 US mpg), which hionestly is a killer.

Anyone else confused by the definition of "family" car here?
I've got a small family... :p

[mclaren_crazy]

I really don't know anything about those 3 cars seeing as none of them are offered in America, .

the volvo is offered here, or at least in canada

[Ferrer]

Would you not consider a Skoda Octavia vRS TDI? Fantastic value for money, you've just got to overcome the brand image. Though I think it may well be over your budget..
Again, too expensive.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I'd be all over the Lancia, personally.

you might not get as much car as the others, but good things come in small packages. and it's bound to be hella luxurious.

[jorismo]

So I might be thinking a bit wild here, but how about a Renaul Modus? I don't really know about UK prices, but over here the 1.4 (98 bhp, 6,7l/100km) for sale at € 16.730... And for the same money you can get a new Skoda Fabia 1.6 (105 bhp, 6,9l/100km). Both of the cars look great and even have some more space. Besides, we had a Renault Modus for a few days and my mother was very excited about it. She especially liked the size of it for city traffic...

[Ferrer]

So I might be thinking a bit wild here, but how about a Renaul Modus? I don't really know about UK prices, but over here the 1.4 (98 bhp, 6,7l/100km) for sale at € 16.730... And for the same money you can get a new Skoda Fabia 1.6 (105 bhp, 6,9l/100km). Both of the cars look great and even have some more space. Besides, we had a Renault Modus for a few days and my mother was very excited about it. She especially liked the size of it for city traffic...
That's exactly what I meant with special. We went to the Renault dealer and I was quite interested in the 1.1-litre turbocharged engine (100bhp, 5,9l/100km, 40 US mpg). And then the saleswoman took us to see one, a rather basic one I must admit.

We got in it, and oh my god. I felt and looked cheap. No excitement, no attention to detail, no anything really. It can't really hold a candle to the Lancia's interior. Which is a shame honestly, because that new engine looked interesting indeed. (And no, I'm not considering the Megane becuase that's downright awful).

We didn't bother going to the Skoda dealership, but I guess it'd be a similar story.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

You may just be pleasantly surprised with Skoda - it might be boring but it'd certainly be well put together ;)

[Waugh-terfall]

Is that the same engine as in the new Twingo GT? (the 1.1T) A rather impressive engine

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

Is that the same engine as in the new Twingo GT? (the 1.1T) A rather impressive engine

I thought it was a 1.2T? :confused:

[Ferrer]

I thought it was a 1.2T? :confused:
1149cc, so technically closer to 1.1-litres than to 1.2, altough Renault does call it a 1.2.

You may just be pleasantly surprised with Skoda - it might be boring but it'd certainly be well put together ;)
We had a Ford Puma, so I'm sort of used to bad built quality... :D

Today I've received the finance numbers for the Volvo and the result is... it's out of the running completely. It's as expensive as a BMW 118d and while the Beemer might not be as good looking as the Volvo it certainly is a miles better car.

[digitalcraft]

Mazda3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Axela)

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

Mazda3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Axela)

Fanboy. :p

[Waugh-terfall]

HAHAHA, I was going to suggest that, but so far, my suggestions have been rubbish, so I decided not to, lol.

And yeah, 1.2T sounds more impressive

[Ferrer]

I'm sorry but I don't like the 3, it's too big. It's 147 money too, and there's definitely no contest over which I'd prefer.

I find the Mazda 2 very interesting, it seems to be a great car which costs the right money. But the interior isn't insipiring.

[Waugh-terfall]

No, Mazda's interiors are a little dull, but functional. The red LED's that move accross the dash is quite nice. I'm guessing you're talking about the new 2? I'd be quite interested to know what they're like, I was rather taken by the old 1.6 Sport.

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

The red LED's that move accross the dash is quite nice.
Has Mazada been branching out into Knightrider?? :confused:

[Ferrer]

No, Mazda's interiors are a little dull, but functional. The red LED's that move accross the dash is quite nice. I'm guessing you're talking about the new 2? I'd be quite interested to know what they're like, I was rather taken by the old 1.6 Sport.
Well since you ask out of the three cars compared here, if we added the Mazda 2 1.5i, it'd be the cheapest, the fastest, the lightest and the most frugal. Not bad, eh? But that interior really puts me off.

EDIT The most frugal of the petrol powered cars.

[Revo]

Well, since C30 is out of competition...

Have you considered 3dr Fiat Grande Punto with 1.4 16V engine? I know, it is a bit steep fall from Mini to Fiat imagewise and you hate Fiat with passion.:p

Nevertheless - it is about time you join the Italian camp.:)

[Ferrer]

Well, since C30 is out of competition...

Have you considered 3dr Fiat Grande Punto with 1.4 16V engine? I know, it is a bit steep fall from Mini to Fiat imagewise and you hate Fiat with passion.:p

Nevertheless - it is about time you join the Italian camp.:)
Apart from hating Fiat (:p) I think the interior is crap and that it isn't special enough.

However you are right about the italians. And that's where the Lancia comes in. So far it's looking to be the winning option. :)

[Revo]

...However you are right about the italians. And that's where the Lancia comes in. So far it's looking to be the winning option. :)
In this case - prepare yourself for incompetent dealer service, neverending electrical problems and bucketloads of rust. :p:D

[Ferrer]

In this case - prepare yourself for incompetent dealer service, neverending electrical problems and bucketloads of rust. :p:D
I think you misunderstood me I said Ypsilon, not Beta... :D

[Waugh-terfall]

Has Mazada been branching out into Knightrider?? :confused:

HAHA, No, above the radio controls and below the screen, around the on/off/volume button there are a row of Red LED's that flash outwards and inwards when the radio is turned on and and the screen says "HELLO" and as you turn up the volume, more and more of the lights illuminate.

Back to the subject, I'm starting to edge towards the Ypsilon Momo Sport, it looks really rather good, I've not yet experienced Xenon headlamps, are they that neccessary?

[Ferrer]

Back to the subject, I'm starting to edge towards the Ypsilon Momo Sport, it looks really rather good, I've not yet experienced Xenon headlamps, are they that neccessary?
Well the Puma we had before the Mini had really awful lights, it was more like having candles rather than lights. When we took over the Mini the change was huge, really noticeable. I do drive at night usually once a week at least and I value a good lightning system. Also it's not only a case of seeing, but be seen too.

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

Well the Puma we had before the Mini had really awful lights, it was more like having candles rather than lights. When we took over the Mini the change was huge, really noticeable. I do drive at night usually once a week at least and I value a good lightning system. Also it's not only a case of seeing, but be seen too.

Yes, I agree. Kitty has crap lights- you can barely see where you're going on normal beams, and high beams are just OK. I'd kill for Xenons or HIDs.

[The_Canuck]

The accord has xenons...

People flash their highbeams because they're so bright.

[Ferrer]

The accord has xenons...

People flash their highbeams because they're so bright.
Here a noticeable amount of cars have xenons, sometimes including cars such as the Renault Clio. And no one has a problem.

[The_Canuck]

It's mostly on country roads with no street lights...

[quattro_20v]

The lancia is a girl's car. Nothing wrong with that but just nog for me.
I like the volvo but only with a bigger engine. I dont like alfa's in general, but without a better choice I would go for the 147 in this case.

[Waugh-terfall]

Yes, I agree. Kitty has crap lights- you can barely see where you're going on normal beams, and high beams are just OK. I'd kill for Xenons or HIDs.

Yeah, I noticed you drive with full beam, when you actually have your lights on..:p

[Ferrer]

The lancia is a girl's car. Nothing wrong with that but just nog for me.
You're right. However the Sport improves the car's image.

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

You're right. However the Sport improves the car's image.

You're a girl anyway, so it doesn't matter... ;)

[jcp123]

I'd kill for Xenons or HIDs.


Ick. If a car I was thinking of buying had them, it'd be a dealbreaker for me. I wouldn't ever want to subject other drivers to that.

I've seen some pretty strong halogens like my car has. Nothing wrong with a good halogen system, IMHO.

[Ingolstadt]

From a Mini, I'd say either the 147 or C30.

you know i hate the current lancia. just hope someone would arson it and burn the whole factory down, together with their ugly cars. :p

[Zytek_Fan]

I'd say the Alfa.

I'd kill myself if I had to drive that horrid Lancia.

[Ingolstadt]

I'd say the Alfa.

I'd kill myself if I had to drive that horrid Lancia.

:P I'll do it twice if given to me. It looked like a pile of dungshit from SsangYyong

[Lagonda]

I'd say scratch them all and get a Clio 3. You can get a 1.6 16V Privilege or Pack GT (or the 1.2 TCE) for almost the same money as a base 147 1.6.

And the Clio 3 is probably more reliable.

[Ingolstadt]

and perhaps 3 times less exciting compared to the Alfa.

[Ferrer]

Ok chaps thanks for your input but we are going with Plan B, since none of those were really what we wanted and spending big money on something you don't really want is silly.

So Plan B has two options. First one is we sell the Mini to my aunt she gives us her 9 year old Mk I Renault Scenic 1.6e. Bear mind this is a stop gap car until we can find a car that really suits us and we save some more money.

Second option of Plan B, if option 1 doesn't work out, is sell the Mini privately and then buy something used and cheap. Requirements here would be cheap to buy and run and more or less bulletproof. This would be again a stop gap car.

So what would you recommend? I'd prefer to stay clear of japanese, but I'll consider them this time. I was thinking more in terms of the Mercedes-Benz 190 E (W201) or the Volvo 740/940.

[Ingolstadt]

Can you tell me your 'WE' ?

Are you the dad, or the son ? How many family members? What kinda car actually you guys are looking for?

Cos it seems a bit weird that changing a mini to the ypsilon.....

May i suggest getting yourself a 2nd hand Audi A4 ? B5.5 or B6 ? Is it costly ?

[Ferrer]

Can you tell me your 'WE' ?

Are you the dad, or the son ? How many family members? What kinda car actually you guys are looking for?

Cos it seems a bit weird that changing a mini to the ypsilon.....

May i suggest getting yourself a 2nd hand Audi A4 ? B5.5 or B6 ? Is it costly ?
Mum and I, that's my family and the people who will be using the car.

In terms of cost I was thinking of this (http://www.coches.net/ocasion/ficha.cfm?id=18729890&orden=foto&marca_modelo=VOLVO%20940%202.3%20GLE%20ABS%20%2F%2 0ROYAL%20AUT.%20130cv%204p.). That'd be the maximum I'd want to spend.

[2ndclasscitizen]

So what would you recommend? I'd prefer to stay clear of japanese, but I'll consider them this time. I was thinking more in terms of the Mercedes-Benz 190 E (W201) or the Volvo 740/940.

Why steer clear of Japanese cars? If you want:


Requirements here would be cheap to buy and run and more or less bulletproof.

A Japanese car would be perfect.

[Ferrer]

Because I'm not really a fan of them... :(

[cmcpokey]

Mum and I, that's my family and the people who will be using the car.

In terms of cost I was thinking of this (http://www.coches.net/ocasion/ficha.cfm?id=18729890&orden=foto&marca_modelo=VOLVO%20940%202.3%20GLE%20ABS%20%2F%2 0ROYAL%20AUT.%20130cv%204p.). That'd be the maximum I'd want to spend.

before we were married, my wife had a 1994 Volvo 940 Turbo. With the exception of the engine melting once, it was an extremely reliable car. With the turbo it had the accelleration of a Semi-Truck, but it was still a very entertainng car to drive. Also very large and comfortable for long road trips.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Because I'm not really a fan of them... :(

But it's just a family car. As long as it's comfortable and reliable, that's all you need.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

To discount a type of car because of it's lineage borders on Fanboydom.

[jediali]

Because I'm not really a fan of them... :(

I guess your coming from the "white goods" point of view, no passion etc.

[fpv_gtho]

Manufacturers such as Honda, Mitsubishi and Mazda arent lacking passion. Youve just got to choose the right model.

[Ferrer]

To discount a type of car because of it's lineage borders on Fanboydom.
I guess I'm not as good as you. I'm sorry for that.

[Waugh-terfall]

Get a 1993 Mazda 323 LXi 1.3DOHC :D

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I guess I'm not as good as you. I'm sorry for that.

It's not about who's better - I drive european as well.

But your reason's are ill-founded - Quality, Reliability and Durability are all characteristics the Japanese manufacturers are renowned for. And they're certainly things one would want from a family car.

And, provided you go the right way, you can definately get a car with soul.

Have you looked at the new Mazda 2 for instance?

[Ferrer]

It's not about who's better - I drive european as well.

But your reason's are ill-founded - Quality, Reliability and Durability are all characteristics the Japanese manufacturers are renowned for. And they're certainly things one would want from a family car.

And, provided you go the right way, you can definately get a car with soul.

Have you looked at the new Mazda 2 for instance?
I love the new Mazda 2 I've said it in post #40. I think the technically it's a brilliant car.

I know that objecitvely japanese cars are very good, but despite that I still can't like them. We might buy one if we have to, but I'd be more for the need than desirability. If that makes me a fanboy then so be it.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Desirability is an unquantifiable element that differs from person to person.

if you desire an Italian car, more power to you. It's just by the specs you gave you'd seem a perfect candidate for a vehicle from the east ;)

[Ferrer]

Desirability is an unquantifiable element that differs from person to person.

if you desire an Italian car, more power to you. It's just by the specs you gave you'd seem a perfect candidate for a vehicle from the east ;)
I have to say that you are probably right, and I quite like the 5th and 6th generarion Civics. However I reckon I'd prefer the Benz or the Volvo.

However I'm open to everything really.

[Waugh-terfall]

an old A140 would be ok wouldn't it, up high so good all round visibility for your city driving, short overhangs and good manouverability, and should be easy on the petrol and cheap to run

[Ferrer]

an old A140 would be ok wouldn't it, up high so good all round visibility for your city driving, short overhangs and good manouverability, and should be easy on the petrol and cheap to run
An A140? Are you kiding me? I'd prefer a Toyota before that... :D

No, I'm more sort of thinking of W201 and W124 Mercedes-Benzes.

[Waugh-terfall]

W201? Whatever you do, don't get the 2.5Diesel and don't get an Auto, the box is a bit jerky and the pedals are odly positioned, in the RHD examples anyway.

[fpv_gtho]

I know that objecitvely japanese cars are very good, but despite that I still can't like them. We might buy one if we have to, but I'd be more for the need than desirability. If that makes me a fanboy then so be it.

I'm the same, i dont think i could bring myself to own a Korean car, whether its a 2007 model Hyundai or some 10 year old Daewoo. New Hyundai's are becoming not that bad technically, but i still wouldnt be able to pay money out of my own pocket for one.

[Kitdy]

Manufacturers such as Honda, Mitsubishi and Mazda arent lacking passion. Youve just got to choose the right model.

I noticed you left out Toyota - I assume that that was intentional as Toyota has no interesting cars.

[Ferrer]

W201? Whatever you do, don't get the 2.5Diesel and don't get an Auto, the box is a bit jerky and the pedals are odly positioned, in the RHD examples anyway.
No, I'm sort of looking after the 1.8 or 2 litre models. Another thing that bothers me is, will these kind of cars be able to run on unleaded petrol?

[jediali]

Manufacturers such as Honda, Mitsubishi and Mazda arent lacking passion. Youve just got to choose the right model.

i didn't deny that, in fact i totally agree.

[fpv_gtho]

I noticed you left out Toyota - I assume that that was intentional as Toyota has no interesting cars.

Not quite intentional, as intentionally pointing out those with strong sports histories. Toyota draws alot of fire for selling whitegoods on wheels, but they see a market where people dont want a 4 door 5 seat supercar in sheeps clothing, and they just so happen to be selling a damn lot of cars doing so. Kinda makes you think its everyone else who has the formula wrong. Theyre in this business to make money afterall.

[nota]

No, I'm sort of looking after the 1.8 or 2 litre models. Another thing that bothers me is, will these kind of cars be able to run on unleaded petrol?
In the non-sporty W201 petrol models the 2.3 really was pick of the litter. The 2.0 goes reasonably ok but the 1.8 was too lugubrious imo (in pollution-control AU spec at least) and probably no more economical in regular driving that the 2 litre

Perhaps this W201 info may be of use to you Ferrer? :)

Model History (http://www.mbcnsw.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,121.0.html)

Buying & ownership Guide (http://www.mbcnsw.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,123.0.html)

I successfully run my leaded '84 S-class V8 on 92 RON ULP with no effing worries at all by using THIS (http://www.moreyoil.co.nz/details.php?&name=MOREY%27S+%26reg%3B++UPPER+CYLINDER+LUBRICANT catID=11&productID=7) stuff, which I have found over many years to be an excellent product that does what it claims. Its also very cost effective. Maybe there's a similar quality of additive available where you live?

Btw I've just returned from a quick 600km trip today to meet up with MSN and I have to say that despite 435,000kms up on the original short-block of my old Benz she is still purring like the proverbial fat cat in springtime - gee it runs great :p

The usual trick to refine poor shift-characteristics (whether harsh or soft) of older M-B automatics is to tweak the vaccum modulator. Being located externally on the transmission case makes them super easy to access. I can adjust mine without using tools in under 30 seconds

[Ferrer]

Thanks nota, very informing. :)

Definitely an option, altough I prefer the smaller W201. 2.3s are rarer than 2 litres and I guess they are thirstier too. This time performance is not important.

Altough the want I'd really like is the 2.6. ;)

[Ingolstadt]

W201 ??!? Get yourself an Audi A4 B5 1.8T then. Lots of european characteristics, you can mod it, and best of all, I'm driving one too :p

Honestly, a car that's good to drive, decent build quality, high reliability, good fuel consumption, cheap and easy to repair, no gremlins, engines and gearboxes that are built like tanks, good interior space, WILL NOT break down = Japanese. No other continents are currently doing something like that.

And if the brand bothers you with the "no passion" thingy, just get a Honda or Subaru then. As for your personal criterion, Mazda, Honda and Subaru have more passion into making cars than Alfa Romeo does, which apparently are only passionate about designing cars rather than engineering one. Alfa Romeo is much much far behind in racing technology, fuel consumption control, engine performance etc compared to the three japs i mentioned.

[Waugh-terfall]

The W201 would be better than an A4 for driving in Barcelona, the Merc has an incredibly small turning circle due to the fact that it was engineered for German Mini-Cab drivers, so it had to be easlily manouverable in small spaces.

[Revo]

W201 ??!? Get yourself an Audi A4 B5 1.8T then. Lots of european characteristics, you can mod it, and best of all, I'm driving one too :p

Honestly, a car that's good to drive, decent build quality, high reliability, good fuel consumption, cheap and easy to repair, no gremlins, engines and gearboxes that are built like tanks, good interior space, WILL NOT break down = Japanese. No other continents are currently doing something like that.

And if the brand bothers you with the "no passion" thingy, just get a Honda or Subaru then. As for your personal criterion, Mazda, Honda and Subaru have more passion into making cars than Alfa Romeo does, which apparently are only passionate about designing cars rather than engineering one. Alfa Romeo is much much far behind in racing technology, fuel consumption control, engine performance etc compared to the three japs i mentioned.
One thing that never stops amazing me is how people tend to see only the design and miss all the engineering effort that goes into Italian cars, no matter if you are talking about Fiat 500 or Ferrari 599.

Ignorance is a bliss.

[Ferrer]

One thing that never stops amazing me is how people tend to see only the design and miss all the engineering effort that goes into Italian cars, no matter if you are talking about Fiat 500 or Ferrari 599.

Ignorance is a bliss.
And they've never heard an Arese V6 probably. ;)

Another of my favourites is the Kappa, especially the oddball Coupé altough it's rare and more expensive.

[Ingolstadt]

The W201 would be better than an A4 for driving in Barcelona, the Merc has an incredibly small turning circle due to the fact that it was engineered for German Mini-Cab drivers, so it had to be easlily manouverable in small spaces.

A smaller turning circle IS NOT A REASON to pick the 190E over the A4, considering the B5 already had such a small turning circle.


One thing that never stops amazing me is how people tend to see only the design and miss all the engineering effort that goes into Italian cars, no matter if you are talking about Fiat 500 or Ferrari 599.

Ignorance is a bliss.

Effort doesn't equal Outcome.

I can't stop thinking about Alfa Brera when I'm mentioning this, and mind you, putting alot of gee-whiz into cars to 'attract' customers purchasing while believing the 'FUN' factor that one perceives they could get doesn't mean they should roll it out before fully testing and engineering them into reliable add-ons that wouldn't create problems and anxiety to their buyers.

And why you use the F599 and F500 (pun :p) as an example whereas I'm mentioning Alfa Romeo? Which apparently Ferrer likes alot, and ironically it's the one I would pick too - without disregarding the fact that I know it's less passionately engineered compared to the likes of Honda or Subaru; less due simply 15 million drivers out there that had FUN revving their VTEC engines out there had never experienced a premature failure.

I love Alfa Romeos for the ambience and so-called-personality they exude, mainly because of how they look and sound, if they were to look like some Corolla, I won't give it a damn. Would you Revo?

[Ferrer]

A smaller turning circle IS NOT A REASON to pick the 190E over the A4, considering the B5 already had such a small turning circle.
No, but price and reputation are.

I can't stop thinking about Alfa Brera when I'm mentioning this, and mind you, putting alot of gee-whiz into cars to 'attract' customers purchasing while believing the 'FUN' factor that one perceives they could get doesn't mean they should roll it out before fully testing and engineering them into reliable add-ons that wouldn't create problems and anxiety to their buyers.
What are you comparing the Brera to? The Cayman or the Z4? The SLK perhaps? You should think of comparing the development budget and the company resources too. And then you could extract some interesting conclusions.

And don't forget that for 2008 the Premium family is losing 90-100kg.

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

I will happily vouch for the W124 Merc. Absolutely bulletproof, although the diesels are disappointingly lacking with the ubiquitous auto 'box. Have a look at a 220E if you can- not hugely fast, but that's not what Mercs are about. ;)

[Lagonda]

What about the C124 ? ;)

[Ferrer]

What about the C124 ? ;)
Great, if I can find one that is. :p

I've been looking at 230CEs today and they aren't that expensive either.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

a Coupe W124? nice.

[Revo]

Effort doesn't equal Outcome.

I can't stop thinking about Alfa Brera when I'm mentioning this, and mind you, putting alot of gee-whiz into cars to 'attract' customers purchasing while believing the 'FUN' factor that one perceives they could get doesn't mean they should roll it out before fully testing and engineering them into reliable add-ons that wouldn't create problems and anxiety to their buyers.
Not quite sure what are you trying to say here. Brera is unreliable? Underdeveloped? Looks faster than it really is? Brera is a far from perfect, but please remember the shoddy situation and financial possibilities of Fiat Group at the time when 159 / Brera family was under development.


And why you use the F599 and F500 (pun :p) as an example whereas I'm mentioning Alfa Romeo? Which apparently Ferrer likes alot, and ironically it's the one I would pick too - without disregarding the fact that I know it's less passionately engineered compared to the likes of Honda or Subaru; less due simply 15 million drivers out there that had FUN revving their VTEC engines out there had never experienced a premature failure.
I used them as an example because I was talking about Italian cars in general. And thank you for proving my point again - people tend to overlook the engineering side in Italian cars. Yes, Honda has a wonderful VTEC. But Alfa Romeo has an equally wonderful JTS technology. Fiat is a world leader in diesel engines. And so on. I'm not saying one is better than the other - I'm saying that there is a very strong engineering tradition in Italian automotive industry.


I love Alfa Romeos for the ambience and so-called-personality they exude, mainly because of how they look and sound, if they were to look like some Corolla, I won't give it a damn. Would you Revo?Yes I would.:p Seriously, I have no idea why I'm such a huge fan of all Italian cars, from Panda to Enzo.

Design? Engineering? Heritage? Quality perhaps?

I have no idea, really. Can you explain love?

[Ferrer]

Design? Engineering? Heritage? Quality perhaps?
For me it's none of those (altough of corse all are welcomed ;))

No, what Italian cars have is soul. The soulf of their people, the soul of their country.

Perhaps that's why if ever had to leave Catalunya my favourite destination would be Italy (and Tuscany in particular).

[Ingolstadt]

No, but price and reputation are.

What are you comparing the Brera to? The Cayman or the Z4? The SLK perhaps? You should think of comparing the development budget and the company resources too. And then you could extract some interesting conclusions.

And don't forget that for 2008 the Premium family is losing 90-100kg.

Development budget shouldn't affect the quality of thr end product. Fiat Panda is a good example. Good good good good car.


Great, if I can find one that is. :p

I've been looking at 230CEs today and they aren't that expensive either.

W124 CEs are great ! My family used to have a 300CE and I love it everybit. I'm still on the lookout for a cabrio CE. Love them and IMO, is still one the most good looking Merc. (The both CLK after the CE are utter crap)


Not quite sure what are you trying to say here. Brera is unreliable? Underdeveloped? Looks faster than it really is? Brera is a far from perfect, but please remember the shoddy situation and financial possibilities of Fiat Group at the time when 159 / Brera family was under development.

Again, if they cut the Croma crap, they might get themselves a good car.



I used them as an example because I was talking about Italian cars in general. And thank you for proving my point again - people tend to overlook the engineering side in Italian cars. Yes, Honda has a wonderful VTEC. But Alfa Romeo has an equally wonderful JTS technology. Fiat is a world leader in diesel engines. And so on. I'm not saying one is better than the other - I'm saying that there is a very strong engineering tradition in Italian automotive industry.

How wonderful JTS is ?



Yes I would.:p Seriously, I have no idea why I'm such a huge fan of all Italian cars, from Panda to Enzo.

Design? Engineering? Heritage? Quality perhaps?

I have no idea, really. Can you explain love?

FANBOY. Italian cars have soul, no doubt. Plenty of them has it, but that's also the point why they're lacking behind in quality; they only rely on the looks to relay their soul to the masses.


For me it's none of those (altough of corse all are welcomed ;))

No, what Italian cars have is soul. The soulf of their people, the soul of their country.

Perhaps that's why if ever had to leave Catalunya my favourite destination would be Italy (and Tuscany in particular).

Fiat Croma ? Ulysse?

[Ferrer]

Development budget shouldn't affect the quality of thr end product. Fiat Panda is a good example. Good good good good car.
Oh yes it's going to affect development. The Panda might be good, but a small city car costs a lot less to develop than a sportscar, therefore the difference. A Fiat Panda against a Porsche Cayman doesn't stand a chance. Or does it?

Again, if they cut the Croma crap, they might get themselves a good car.
The 159 and Croma are unrelated except for the diesel engines and some bits of the petrols.

Fiat Croma ? Ulysse?
Nobody is perfect. ;)

And the Ulysse is in fact french.

[Revo]

Again, if they cut the Croma crap, they might get themselves a good car.
What is so fundamentally wrong with Fiat Croma then? It is quite average bland looking cross between estate and MPV. However, the cabin is highly spacious and practical. Also, mated with JTD diesel engine, Croma is quite capable family car. Nothing wrong with that, me thinks.


How wonderful JTS is ?
If you'd bother to do little research, you would know that:

new JTS 2.0
Displacement: 1970 cc
Power: 121 kW @6400 rpm
Torque: 206 Nm @3250 rpm

compeared to

old 2.0 Twinspark
Displacement: 1970 cc
Power: 110..114 kW @6400 rpm
Torque: 181...187 Nm @3250 rpm

And, JTS engine meets the ultra tough Euro 4 emissions standards and yet, despite the performance gains, fuel consumption stays virtually the same. Also, JTS delivers smoother torque and power curve than old TS unit.

If that isn't proper engineering, I don't know what is.


FANBOY. Italian cars have soul, no doubt. Plenty of them has it, but that's also the point why they're lacking behind in quality; they only rely on the looks to relay their soul to the masses.
Ingolstadt, I'm not getting through to you, am I?

And I do not like to be called FANBOY, all right?

[Ferrer]

If you'd bother to do little research, you would know that:

new JTS 2.0
Displacement: 1970 cc
Power: 121 kW @6400 rpm
Torque: 206 Nm @3250 rpm

compeared to

old 2.0 Twinspark
Displacement: 1970 cc
Power: 110..114 kW @6400 rpm
Torque: 181...187 Nm @3250 rpm

And, JTS engine meets the ultra tough Euro 4 emissions standards and yet, despite the performance gains, fuel consumption stays virtually the same. Also, JTS delivers smoother torque and power curve than old TS unit.

If that isn't proper engineering, I don't know what is.
It would've been much shorted that it stands for Jet Thurst Stoichiometric. Or in other words nothing more than direct fuel injection. ;)

[jcp123]

I'd have to pick the Alfa 147 here. It's actually the best-looking of the three to my eyes, and not knowing a whole lot else about the others, that's all I'm gonna have to base my selection on...

[Cotterik]

I can't even contemplate why you wouldn't go with the the Volvo C30 at this point. Its a great car.

[Ferrer]

I can't even contemplate why you wouldn't go with the the Volvo C30 at this point. Its a great car.
Because it's expensive.

[Cotterik]

There are pro's and con's for all these cars. But in this case you get what you pay for.

[clutch-monkey]

There are pro's and con's for all these cars. But in this case you get what you pay for.

they all have seats and wheels :confused: :p

[Ferrer]

they all have seats and wheels :confused: :p
Actually no.

The Volvo is missing the spare wheel... :D

[clutch-monkey]

Actually no.

The Volvo is missing the spare wheel... :D

:eek: criminal! for that reason alone i'd drop it. space savers/gel stuff suck

[Ingolstadt]

Just get the 147 and shut up :p You love it.