Racing as a Sport? Please justify this for me.

[-What-]

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to understand why race car drivers consider themselves to be ATHLETES. Athletes? Serious?

Answer this...is John Force a professional athlete? Jeff Gordon? Schumacher?


Why is racing considered a "sport" and their drivers "athletes" when 99% of the race depends on the CAR.

Are jockeys professional athletes? Are pilots athletes?



I like racing. I like it...but I want to understand the logic.


What about the dude sitting in the driver seat of the rally cars that tells the driver his upcoming route...is he an athlete? Has there been a race car driver that achieved an injury from over-stressing while performing his "sport"?


I am not trying to offend anyone.
__________________

[RacingManiac]

I believe equestrian is actually an olympic sport.....so is Bobsledding, tobogganing, baseball....etc


I think some racing is more qualified as being a sports than others, but in the grand scheme of things they are ALL recognized as athlete. If you have ever driven a car in competition, you'll see its actually quite physical, requires a great degree of stamina and hand-eye coordination, which is much like any other traditional sports. In higher level of racing(I guess other than drag), drivers are required to keep in top physical condition in order to perform at their best, they need tremandous upper body strength to deal with the g-forces, they also need insane amount of neck muscle development to hold their head upright to deal with upward to 5 G(in F1's case) of their head+helmet weight in longitudinal and lateral direction, while being able to operate their vehicle.....

Put it another way, I remember a few years back Tiger Woods was asked who he thinks is a better athlete: Himself, Federer, or Michael Schumacher, each were dominating their respective sports at the time, Tiger Woods said Schumacher....

[-What-]

Niko Fx said:


So you could actually drive a Ferrari F1 and do just as good as M. Schumacher since the car does 99% of the work?

Don't they lose like 5lbs per race? I bet it's more than what a Baseball player loses on any game.

As far as your question Niko...yes. Give me enough practice and I'd be able to compete with Schumacher and possibly beat him. If he suffers an injury...er...if his car fails, I win. In racing, I've notice that the "athletes" fail when their CARS fail.

But seriously, yes, I believe I could be a competitive race car driver with enough practice. Of course you'll disagree, but think about this...
Driving an F1 car is a "priviledge"...everyone doesn't get the oppurtunity. Therefore, it is more likely that the best in the world isn't competing compared to most other "sports". I could possibly demolish Schumacher, but we'd never know. I can't go in the streets an play a game of "pick-up F1". I do believe that I am a better conditioned athlete than Schumacher could ever dream of being though, so I may have an edge.

[Niko_Fx]

Why is racing considered a "sport" and their drivers "athletes" when 99% of the race depends on the CAR.

So you could actually drive a Ferrari F1 and do just as good as M. Schumacher since the car does 99% of the work?

Don't they lose like 5lbs per race? I bet it's more than what a Baseball player loses on any game.

Drivers (specially F1) need stay in shape throughout their whole season and career for that matter. Cars are designed for them, and every ounce of weight means a heavier, slower car.

[clutch-monkey]

i think it could be classed as such simply due to the sheer effort (mental?) of keeping focused on the car. the track, the conditions and keeping at it's top pace for lap after lap?

[Niko_Fx]

But seriously, yes, I believe I could be a competitive race car driver with enough practice. Of course you'll disagree, but think about this...
Driving an F1 car is a "priviledge"...everyone doesn't get the oppurtunity. Therefore, it is more likely that the best in the world isn't competing compared to most other "sports". I could possibly demolish Schumacher, but we'd never know. I can't go in the streets an play a game of "pick-up F1". I do believe that I am a better conditioned athlete than Schumacher could ever dream of being though, so I may have an edge.

If you were to beat Schumacher, wouldn't you want to take a bit more credit than a mere 1%? ;)

[Quiggs]

I believe equestrian is actually an olympic sport.....so is Bobsledding, tobogganing, baseball....etc


I think some racing is more qualified as being a sports than others, but in the grand scheme of things they are ALL recognized as athlete. If you have ever driven a car in competition, you'll see its actually quite physical, requires a great degree of stamina and hand-eye coordination, which is much like any other traditional sports. In higher level of racing(I guess other than drag), drivers are required to keep in top physical condition in order to perform at their best, they need tremandous upper body strength to deal with the g-forces, they also need insane amount of neck muscle development to hold their head upright to deal with upward to 5 G(in F1's case) of their head+helmet weight in longitudinal and lateral direction, while being able to operate their vehicle.....

Put it another way, I remember a few years back Tiger Woods was asked who he thinks is a better athlete: Himself, Federer, or Michael Schumacher, each were dominating their respective sports at the time, Tiger Woods said Schumacher....
Drag racers have to work up into the top classes because of the forces their bodies are subject to. It's possible to black out launching a top fuel car.

[-What-]

So are jockeys athletes? What about the sport of remote control car racing...are the owners athletes?

[Niko_Fx]

Drag racers have to work up into the top classes because of the forces their bodies are subject to. It's possible to black out launching a top fuel car.

That's true, happened to me a few times in the Civic...

[Quiggs]

That's true, happened to me a few times in the Civic...

Vtak kicked in, huh? Nice.

[coolieman1220]

i read somewhere that a race car driver has to be in as good shape as an athlete due to the extreme conditions they go to. the G forces they have to fight off and their heart rate gets as high as a track sta. it makes sense they would. racing is not easy and you need nerves of steel!

[-What-]

If you were to beat Schumacher, wouldn't you want to take a bit more credit than a mere 1%? ;)

My 1% is strong.


Drag racers have to work up into the top classes because of the forces their bodies are subject to. It's possible to black out launching a top fuel car.

This has nothing to do with athletics. This depends on the particular person. Some people are better at handling g-forces than others. If you think John Force's fat-ass is a top-conditioned athlete...no.


It is difficult for me to consider race car drivers athletes when the majority of the work is performed by the vehicle.

[Fuerte100]

I believe being in an extremely noisy, hot cabin while pulling 5 g forces and still managing to concentrate for extended periods of time is an athletic trait. The stuff looks easy, but I bet you could hardly pull Shumy's times in a videogame.

[Niko_Fx]

So are jockeys athletes? What about the sport of remote control car racing...are the owners athletes?

Do you know what kind of training Jockeys (since you keep mentioning them) undergo at all?? It's not as easy as racing the horse and keeping a low weight, trust me.

A good buddy of mine is an Equestrian, he trains every single day with his horse and by himself to stay fit to ride.

[RacingManiac]

Can you beat Tiger Woods in Golf if you played often enough? Fair question, because thats as valid as claiming in being able to beat Schumacher with enough practice. Like any other competitive sports, there are PLENTY of people trying to make it in professional rank. THOUSANDS of people every year races in various form of junior rank racing, not all of them make the grade. While these days many seats in top rank racing are so called paid seats, much of these people still paid their due in climbing the ladder to beat out others to get to that point where some sponsors are willing to throw money at them to send them to an F1 seat.

To complain about equipment, if an Olympic cyclist's bike failed in his heat, does he get a 2nd chance? Racing is complicated by the fact that it is not only an individual pursuit, it is also a pursuit of the team of people who supports that ONE man, thats why they recognized the achievement as a team as well.....its as if a cyclist have to make his own bike as well as racing it......

[-What-]

Put it another way, I remember a few years back Tiger Woods was asked who he thinks is a better athlete: Himself, Federer, or Michael Schumacher, each were dominating their respective sports at the time, Tiger Woods said Schumacher....

Tiger Woods' opinion has nothing to do with the truth. He speaks for the publicity. He will say whatever will sound appealing. Tiger Woods is nothing but a talking head.

[The_Canuck]

It all depends on your definition of athelete, once you know what that is you think you could make your own opinion.


Driving an F1 car is a "priviledge"...everyone doesn't get the oppurtunity.

Drivers don't just come out of nowhere, they work their way up.

[Niko_Fx]

Watch this video, it's well worth it:

Physical effects of driving a Formula 1 car (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-eiKYyVr2A)

[Fuerte100]

Athlete-
a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.
Where does Shumy not fall under this?

[-What-]

Can you beat Tiger Woods in Golf if you played often enough? Fair question, because thats as valid as claiming in being able to beat Schumacher with enough practice. Like any other competitive sports, there are PLENTY of people trying to make it in professional rank.

You can't compare Tiger Woods to Schumacher. The power given to the golf ball comes from Tiger...not a chemical reaction away from the "athlete". Tiger swings, Schumacher pushes a pedal. Yes, Schumacher must steer...in heat! But really, Schumacher can't propel a vehicle to go 150+ mph, the engine does.

Also, almost anyone can go play a round of golf. VERY FEW get the oppurtunity to drive an F1 car. VERY FEW. I'd be willing to bet my HEART that the Golf elite is more "elite" than the F1 elite...purely because there is a larger volume of competition that one must defeat in golf than in F1.


Like I said early, I can go play Golf tomorrow if I want. I'll never get the chance to drive an F1 car...so how do you know if I'm not an F1 Jesus? You don't...because I won't get the chance to drive an F1 car...EVER. You have to be born into F1.

[RacingManiac]

BTW, no car I've ever driven have a way of cancelling the G forces one subjects to, I've driven an FSAE car for an entire day practicing for skidpad(figure of 8 style, timed), autoX and we are capable of hitting 2G in cornering and braking, you are pretty beat at the end of the day, and my neck and shoulders and arms were in pain for 2 weeks after(I am not in the best of shape, mind you). Racing involves dealing with that physical pain while keeping competitive, as you are trying to keep the good laptime, which requires you to maintain that level of g-forces, which in terms wearing yourself more....all the while keeping the concentration to coordinate all your inputs(gas, brake, steering, shifting) from going astray, I can't imagine in higher level of racing where you are also managing your other resources while keeping an eye of strategy and other cars on track.....

Easiest way to find out, is to drive Go-Kart for like 60 laps, not those kiddy cart or some shit cart you go to drive at your random local venue, but like an actual competitive event. Some cart track locally do have these arrive-and-drive races(not cheap), and I guarantee you you'll be in pain after......If you have not done the basic like that, it'll be hard for you to understand....

[aNOBLEman]

Like I said early, I can go play Golf tomorrow if I want. I'll never get the chance to drive an F1 car...so how do you know if I'm not the next F1 Jesus? You won't...because even if I am no one would sign me because I won't get the chance...EVER.

If you are (hypothetically) good enough to be the next F1 "Jesus" then you should be good enough to work your way through all of the feeder series and win a championship in each one. Therefore giving you the chance to be in F1.

[-What-]

Drivers don't just come out of nowhere, they work their way up.

And drivers don't just come from EVERYWHERE. Most people don't have the FINANCIAL ABILITY to PLAY race car driving competitively enough to get noticed. Most of these drivers have rich backgrounds or have found a way to get SPONSORED.


Because everyone can't do it, the ELITE of F1 are not as elite as other "sports".


And did someone mention "agility"? What agility does a race car driver need?



If you are (hypothetically) good enough to be the next F1 "Jesus" then you should be good enough to work your way through all of the feeder series and win a championship in each one. Therefore giving you the chance to be in F1.
What if I'm poor? How will I enter the races?

[aNOBLEman]

What if I'm poor? I will I enter the races?

I'm going to be honest in that you are quite right here because I am in that situation, but, from what you have shown, you are not poor.

[-What-]

One of these guys is considered a world-dominating athlete. Pick....





http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2240/john20forcels7.jpg

http://www.johnstonphotos.org/content/photos/quinn1.jpg




Now pick the athlete, I only see one. Seriously.



I'm going to be honest in that you are quite right here because I am in that situation, but, from what you have shown, you are not poor.


Well, I'm considered "too old" now. It's too late for me to race...but I'm glad you see where I am coming from. If you were the next F1 "Baby-Jesus" you have no way of proving yourself. Athletes...not a very competitive "sport".

[RacingManiac]

Also, almost anyone can go play a round of golf. VERY FEW get the oppurtunity to drive an F1 car. VERY FEW. I'd be willing to bet my HEART that the Golf elite is more "elite" than the F1 elite...purely because there is a larger volume of competition that one must defeat in golf than in F1.





How many F1 drivers are there? 20-22? How many Pro Golfers are on PGA tour, or smaller scale, a single PGA event?

F1 drivers don't just say, "hey I wanna drive an F1 car for Ferrari", and they just say "here you go". How many people makes it in top level of base ball? soccer? NBA? How many people are in top level of racing? Combining F1, Indycar, NASCAR Sprint Cup, Champ Car, you are struggling to meet 150 people in the world.....and most category of racing are as different as comparing soccer to football(american style for our european friends)....

Golf BTW is not cheap....one of my friend's friend is paying tens of thousands of dollars to send his son to golf school in Florida where they train pro golfers, not exactly a pick-up sports either if you wanna play at that level....

[Niko_Fx]

Vtak kicked in, huh? Nice.

My 2001 Civic Lx is not even Vtakck, in that year only the EX and Si were Vtachh.... How sad.

[The_Canuck]

And drivers don't just come from EVERYWHERE. Most people don't have the FINANCIAL ABILITY to PLAY race car driving competitively enough to get noticed. Most of these drivers have rich backgrounds or have found a way to get SPONSORED.


Because everyone can't do it, the ELITE of F1 are not as elite as other "sports".


Not "everyone" can do ANY sport for a living. Think people living in poverty can suddenly become basketball stars?

Hmm how do you get sponsored? Oh yeah, by having some ability. Drivers don't bribe their way into racing.

You've never heard any stories of people from moderate backgrounds making it big in racing?

You're not just blind to haters, you're blind to reality.

[-What-]

Not "everyone" can do ANY sport for a living. Think people living in poverty can suddenly become basketball stars?


HELL YES



I don't know ANY rags-to-riches race car stories of modern day.

Ashley Force...SUCKS. But she still manages to win sometimes. You think she would be a PROFESSIONAL if her dad wasn't JOHN FORCE? You tellin' me that this girl has the athletic ability to compete with MEN? What type of "professional male athlete" loses to a GIRL in his respective sport?

My sister can beat me in UNO every now-and-then...but she'd NEVER beat me in a 100m foot race. NEVER.

[RacingManiac]

uh, I think Lewis Hamilton comes pretty close....not rags, but certainly not rich either....Juan Montoya also has a pretty humble beginning racing.....

[Niko_Fx]

I can play the picture game as well:

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/fortyniners/2006/08/19/FatFootball.jpg

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2005/cars/fiat/01/stilo_prodrive/michael_schumacher.jpg

[IBrake4Rainbows]

How I interpret how this thread has gone so far.

1) What asks a question - Are Race drivers considered athletes?
2) comes across resistance to his own opinion on the issue - is given evidence that said drivers require as much physical and mental toughness as any athlete.
3) Posts Images of a Drag racer - who's entire job is to sit there, keep his arms straight and hang on for dear life. Against a Steroid Addled basketballer. to prove a completely unrelated point - No one was arguing Drag racers weren't athletes ;)

Bluntly, if you don't like the fact people disagree with your opinion, don't prejudge the outcome of said events. the average formula 1 driver (come to think of it nearly every professional driver) endures hundreds of hours of endurance and strength training. coupled to reaction testing (often to exhaustion), car testing and G forces when they are racing.

Couple this to the fact they have to navigate the nasty world of actually getting a drive in the first place, maintaining their position in a Team via good results, and keeping up with an ever-growing line of people willing to take there place, and it's no wonder they work hard to maintain and improve upon themselves.

Sounds like what every other professional athlete has to do, no? navigate seedy people looking to take advantage of their hard work and talent, maintain rank or position on a team or tour, and win events?

Pretty much the definition of Athlete to me.

[Matra et Alpine]

Welcome back -What- :)

Some facts woudl help suport your POV.

Racing drivers are some of THE fittest people on the planet.
A while back ( before the modern REALLY fit era ) there was a competition here in the UK which pitted sportsmen and women from various sports to physical and skill challenges. Always in the top were drivers.

Don't underestimate the physical EFFORT involved in driving a race or rally car on real circuits. ( Granted there are some "sports" where that's less true -- ie stock car racing )
On top of that the physical SKILL necessary is vastly superior to say a football player or baseball or golf !

I suspect you're only seeing the upper tier of the sport in your comparisons. There are many MANY more 10-18 year olds dedicating their time to racing in karts than are playing golf and practising regularly. Then there are the many club race and rally events and sprints, hillclimbs, karting, autotesting etc etc etc. These are the base of the pyramid that the F1 bods sit atop :)

Lewis Hamilton did not come fomr a rich or privelaged background :) Neither did Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Jimmy McRae, Colin McRae, David Coulthard ... in fact the only "priveladged" Scots driver I can recall is Jonny Dumfries who is an Earl -- skint but had the title :)

Perhpas -What- you're seeing all of it from a US-centric background.
Have to admit EVERY driver I've seen from the US formulae has been rather "portly".
Over here they're all skinny, ultra fit runts :)

[-What-]

I can play the picture game as well:

Those are not professional football players, and they especially aren't at the top of their sport.

[kingofthering]

It is difficult for me to consider race car drivers athletes when the majority of the work is performed by the vehicle.

As I said in the deleted thread, they exert themselves as much as others. They are subject to the same heat, cold, and are in the same physical shape of athletes.

Anyway, I'd love to see you win the F1 World Championship. Look at Richard Hammond for example. He claimed that the duty was "easy". Yet he couldn't even get the car rolling without stalling several times.

Don't give me that "I'll do it with experience" bullshit. No duh, it takes years and years of moving up series and series at a time, from Karts to Formula 3.

If you're so damn good, I'd also like to see you win a WRC race.

[Fuerte100]

Men usually dominate in sports because they are stronger and more capable of extreme physical activity. However, Women are equal in sports that are mostly technique and strategy.

[Niko_Fx]

Those are not professional football players, and they especially aren't at the top of their sport.

I dislike American Football, so I couldn't really look for a proper example since I don't know any names... Still proves my point, there are some really fat American Football / Baseball players out there who are considered "Athletes".

[The_Canuck]

[B]
Ashley Force...SUCKS. But she still manages to win sometimes. You think she would be a PROFESSIONAL if her dad wasn't JOHN FORCE? You tellin' me that this girl has the athletic ability to compete with MEN? What type of "professional male athlete" loses to a GIRL in his respective sport?

My sister can beat me in UNO every now-and-then...but she'd NEVER beat me in a 100m foot race. NEVER.


Oh now you're being sexist? You're truly brilliant at trying to prove your points.

[Matra et Alpine]

Now pick the athlete, I only see one. Seriously.
Kind of supported my earlier point :)

Well, I'm considered "too old" now. It's too late for me to race
Not at all.
Fine if you don't start racing when you're 12 you'll unlikely make it in the modern Formula One circus. BUT there are many who race and rally into their 70s :) SOme who didnt' start on 4 wheels till in their 50s !!
Local winner of last years Scottish historic FF1600 is in his late 50s and only started racing in open wheelers LAST SEASON after 3 years in a historic saloon.
You shoudl get down to local car club and see what events you coudl join in on and find out how hard it is to actually provide the mental and physical effort to drive fast for even just 30 minutes :)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

ATHLETE:A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

Kindly explain how that is not related to someone who races competitively, using their acquired agility, strength and endurance?

[RacingManiac]

you call these guys not athletes too?
Sports: A huge problem (http://www.sptimes.com/2006/01/29/Sports/A_huge_problem.shtml)



Again, more time wasted on this thread is more time that you could've used to do "Pick-Up-Karting".....

[kingofthering]

HELL YES



I don't know ANY rags-to-riches race car stories of modern day.



Micheal Schumacher? He worked at a VW dealer for a while and drove a ratty Mini. His family wasn't rich by any means either.

Doesn't it suck to see your examples get torn apart and thrown back in your face?;)

[RacingManiac]

Micheal Schumacher? He worked at a VW dealer for a while and drove a ratty Mini. His family wasn't rich by any means either.

Doesn't it suck to see your examples get torn apart and thrown back in your face?;)

I believe his first car was actually a Fiat 500....

[-What-]

Micheal Schumacher? He worked at a VW dealer for a while and drove a ratty Mini. His family wasn't rich by any means either.

Doesn't it suck to see your examples get torn apart and thrown back in your face?;)

Michael Schumacher was only able to race because he was supported by several local businessmen.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Michael Schumacher was only able to race because he was supported by several local businessmen.

How is that any different to a Poor Football player getting a scholarship?

an outside influence recognising talent.

[kingofthering]

Michael Schumacher was only able to race because he was supported by several local businessmen.

But he still had to work to get to that point.


Like that matters :rolleyes:

[Jack_Bauer]

-What-, I think the one thing that you seem to be missing from the equation (and that others so far haven't drawn too much attention to) is IMO the biggest factor in all competitive sports - mental strength. Being able to compete at the top level of any sport is easily as much about an athlete's mental focus, resilience and ability to perform under extreme pressure than it is about any physical aptitude.

Take an extremely physical sport as an example, like MMA fighting. These people are extremely physically fit, powerful and well conditioned. I myself am very fit and in very good shape because I train alongside and help to coach a number of local fighters at the gym I go to. However, would I ever be able to compete at any kind of level, despite my physical abilities? Hell no! There's absolutely no way I have the strength of mind, courage, drive to succeed (not to mention slight insanity!) that fighters of any discipline have. Physical ability is only one part of any sport.

Look at the complete opposite end of the spectrum - a sport like darts. The physical effort required to play darts is basically standing on a stage and chucking three little brass darts a 6ft distance over and over again. It's easy. What's not easy is the mental strength needed to be able to produce the winning dart at the perfect under the hot lights and the TV cameras in the World Championship Final. EVERY professional darts player can hit bullseyes and treble 20s all day long when practicing. Only a tiny minority can produce the goods consistently under the extreme mental pressure of a World Final. The psychological pressure put on a player in that circumstance is probably akin to the pressure put on a starting quarterback in a Superbowl. That's why I'd argue that Phil Taylor is a great sportsman - because he has had the mental athleticism to produce the goods time and time and time again in the big matches, enough to become a 13 time World Champion.

Coming back to the sport (and it is a sport) of motor racing - imagine the pressure that goes through the head of a Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Dale Earnhardt Jr, Jimmy Johnson etc. They have tens (if not hundreds) of millions of development and sponsorship money ploughed into their cars, they have a team of hundreds who have spent thousands of man hours preparing the cars and they have a global audience of hundreds of millions scrutinising their every move, and yet ultimately it all comes down to them. One little lapse in concentration, one poor decision and their race/championship could be over in an instant. And what's worse, they could end up seriously injured or even dead. There is also the fact that driving an F1 car for example requires incredible reflexes and mental agility too, to a level that most 'normal' people simply could not cope with. Just look at the Top Gear episode where Hammond tries to drive an F1 car to see what happens when a 'regular Joe' tries it out for himself - he literally could not think fast enough to get the car to to perform.

So not only do they have to endure extreme physical duress throughout a race distance (which has already been pointed out to you in the video Niko posted, so I won't go into details) they have to produce the goods every single lap without error no matter how much they're hurting or sweating. Let's just say for arguments' sake that you ARE capable of withstanding the physical effort of all the heat, G-forces etc, would you be able to perform the incredible feats of mental agility involved in wheel to wheel racing at >200mph, and under the unimaginable pressures put on you to not screw things up, every single lap of a race? I mean no disrespect, but I sincerely doubt it. Only a tiny minority of the thousands of kids who get into racing every single year will ever make it to the pinnacle of the sport. It's not because they're not fit enough or strong enough, but because they don't have the mentality of a racer and of a champion.

[NicFromLA]

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to understand why race car drivers consider themselves to be ATHLETES. Athletes? Serious?

Answer this...is John Force a professional athlete? Jeff Gordon? Schumacher?


Why is racing considered a "sport" and their drivers "athletes" when 99% of the race depends on the CAR.

Are jockeys professional athletes? Are pilots athletes?



I like racing. I like it...but I want to understand the logic.


What about the dude sitting in the driver seat of the rally cars that tells the driver his upcoming route...is he an athlete? Has there been a race car driver that achieved an injury from over-stressing while performing his "sport"?


I am not trying to offend anyone.
__________________


You offend with your ignorance. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

[butcher]

I have no doubt that people like Michael Schumacher and Mark Webber could be competiitve in a marathon or triathlon or something like that because they are tremendous athletes.

Whoever said that 99% of racing is down to the car? By that logic I could jump in a Ferrari and win the world championship. If you have the fastest car, you need the fastest driver to use that avaiable performance. Thus the fastest driver wins, just like in any other sport, the best athlete/team wins.

[MRR]

Why is racing considered a "sport" and their drivers "athletes" when 99% of the race depends on the CAR.

Um for the same reason that rifle, shotgun, etc are Olympic sports. For the same reason that golf is considered a sport and don't forget jockeys, etc. To be a driver like Schumacher you need lightning reflexes, excellent hand eye coordination, bodily endurance to handle lateral g-forces continuously, etc.

Wasn't this guy banned a few days ago?

[Rockefella]

What's going to happen here is that people will show how racing drivers portray and uphold athletic qualities while What will state that the car does the work. I don't see a conclusion in reach.

[whiteballz]

I think anything that can be defined as requiring skill to complete, (mental and physical)
and then be marked/judged against competitors can be counted as a sport.

thus driving is no different to sprinting, its the same track and conditions as your competitors, but it comes down to the driver and the setup. (equivalent of training in sprints)

[magracer]

Dear What, either you simply don't have a clue about racing or you simply want to keep making threads that attract attention... I think it's both so I've bothered try to answer...

It's clear to me that you have never ever driven in a competitive fashion. You might be fit, but i'm willing to bet that after a handfull of laps in a competitive racing kart, preferably a shifter, your neck, shoulders and arms will be in pain. Probably you'll also have a couple of spots with live flesh in your hips because the seat will not fit perfectly (it's not your kart after all) and you'll be moving around under conering, and you'll have a couple blisters in your hands.

So please, get the phonebook, look up kart racing tracks near you and renting places and book a drive in a kart for this weekend, then come back tell us that you broke the lap record because you are fit. I'll bet you'll not be able get even within 10% of the lap record (set by a local hero) on your first outing. Then come back and tell us how you can beat Shumacher in a good car. Ha!

A few other random thoughts:
- Using your same logic Golf isn't a sport because the club does all the work! Tiger only "drives" it! No science in that, is there? If tiger was given a club 10 inches too short, will he be as good? Same with a car...
- Do yourself another favor and go buy or just browse an Autosport magazine at the local Barnes and Nobles. While your are at it buy or browse a Grassroots Motorsport magazine. You'll get to see there are thousands of racers on hundreds of racing series around the world, not just the 5 or 10 series with a couple hundred drivers you know.
- About the rags to riches issue. just read a Mika Hakkinen interview where he said his dad worked two jobs, one at a track and second as taxi driver, also Nigel Mansell who almost went bankrupt chasing the dream. Montoya's dad paid for local series, and up to Barber Saab in the states, then mortgaged the house to pay for a portion of F3000. A few local companies helped out, but when funds dried up Helmut Marko agreed to finance the operation. Montoya came second in that year and the rest is history. Not rags, but not a billionaire.
- In the words of Ernest Hemingway, only bullfighting, (high) mountain climbing and racing are sports, all others are games; meaning that life is at risk everytime you engage in any of these as opposed to, say, golf! (Yes, it isn't actually a Hemingway quote but it's generally accepted as).
- Actually, you can pay for an F1 ride, I think it's in France, just google it.

[acfsambo]

A few things -WHAT-. Firstly, have you ever been driving for a long time and got tired? There is no doubt u have. It takes a lot of effort to concentrate when you are tired. Imagine driving for abou 1-3 hour but in 40+ degree heat, no chance to relax. Its hard enough to concentrate for 1-3 hours just sitting still and reading let alone with all the variables involved in driving.

Secondly i bring the point up about "spot the sportsman". Formula , Rally, Circuit drivers are more than athletes that most american footballers. Some of them run on the field, kick the ball and run off, harld a sportsman. Drivers have to race for hours on end for most of the year. The F1 actually started as soon as the last race was finished. Teams were already loking at next years car, the drivers would have been getting ready for training, practice ect. (Personally i dont consider most of NFL a sport, the NFL [players are amazed at out league and union players as they were no padding (some helmets) and stay on the field for the whole game (80min)).

Tiger Woods can be compared to Micheal Schumacher as they both (when Schmacher was still in F1) practice for long periods of time. If Tiger Woods doesn't train or practice (even get coaching) his game goes bad, because if you dont practice your body loses the natural memory of the movement and thought process. Schumacher has needs to train and practice a lot otherwise he would lose his thought process and natural memory of movements. HE would still be able to steer but not get the car on the perfect racing line.

[fpv_gtho]

I have no doubt that people like Michael Schumacher and Mark Webber could be competiitve in a marathon or triathlon or something like that because they are tremendous athletes.

Webber does indeed do that, ever year for the last few years he holds his own charity event through Tasmania which is akin to a triathlon event. Schumacher quite often competes in Soccer matches, and is hardly embarrased either!

[henk4]

And did someone mention "agility"? What agility does a race car driver need?


Jacky Ickx was capable of walking a 4 metre rope.
Seb Loeb started his career as a high level gymnast.
It helped both to apply their sense for equilibrium on track.

The ground effect F1 cars from the eighties were banned because the drivers could not stand the G-forces.

And the art of racing is not to go fast, but to go as fast as possible, and the possibilities can be best explorerd when in a pretty good shape.

[Matra et Alpine]

What's going to happen here is that people will show how racing drivers portray and uphold athletic qualities while What will state that the car does the work. I don't see a conclusion in reach.
Why not ?
-What- raise a questino based on lack of knowledge and so far we're seeing quite a few comments that -What- was unaware of and may influence his point of view.

re the car versus the man then if we look back we can find many examples of race drivers in "ordinary" cars driving faster than even performance cars. Jackie Stewart did it in a Capri ... more recently looking up Sabine's lap at the 'ring in a TRANSIT VAN as shown on Top Gear will educate on the difference a driver actually makes.

[henk4]

Look at the complete opposite end of the spectrum - a sport like darts. The physical effort required to play darts is basically standing on a stage and chucking three little brass darts a 6ft distance over and over again. It's easy. What's not easy is the mental strength needed to be able to produce the winning dart at the perfect under the hot lights and the TV cameras in the World Championship Final. EVERY professional darts player can hit bullseyes and treble 20s all day long when practicing. Only a tiny minority can produce the goods consistently under the extreme mental pressure of a World Final. The psychological pressure put on a player in that circumstance is probably akin to the pressure put on a starting quarterback in a Superbowl. That's why I'd argue that Phil Taylor is a great sportsman - because he has had the mental athleticism to produce the goods time and time and time again in the big matches, enough to become a 13 time World Champion.


Was thinking of this example all the time when i read the thread...can we call Andy Fordham or even Raymond van Barneveldt an athlete is the "trained" sense of the world? Not really.....
What about chess players.

[Kitdy]

I always wondered whether or not drivers were athletes as I wondered whether motorsport was a sport.

Here's the definition from dictionary.com.

Athlete: a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.

EDIT: and here's the definition for sport: an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

[LandQuail]

Great work answering "What"'s question. I'm going to start berating him now. If I get banned, so be it. He's ****ing this whole website, and I can't imagine why it's still tolerated.

What, I've made every effort to be civil, losses of temper and the occasional humorous (though often tasteless) ribbing aside. But you've snapped this old 'Quail's last banjo string with this thread.

You're a real piece of shit, "What," and you're bringing this whole website down to your level. That so many have expended so much time on this horseshit thread is a testament to the quality of UCP's membership, but I deal with enough lunatics earning my paycheck; I'll not tolerate them here.

Are you like those Westboro Baptist Church assholes, "What?" Have you from a young age perceived the anger and ridicule directed towards you as vindication? Do you like angering people, "What?" Does it bring you satisfaction?

The 'Quail knows your type, "What;" I've dealt with your kind before. You're a John Wayne type; a type-A personality. Your mind is strong, impenetrable, a fortress.

But you're flawed, "What," I know you are.

You're lonely.

You've got your friends, sure, sure, but they're all assholes, aren't they? You associate with your own kind, but you're all bottomfeeders, losers; you're really all the same, aren't you? You don't have anyone, really, do you?.

You don't. Your kind doesn't. It's just assholes and isolation all around you; just a bunch of assholes keeping to themselves and timidly snickering at "inside jokes" in the far corner of the bar. Nobody would "get it." Nobody would give two ****s. Nobody cares; you've got nothing, and you know you don't.

You're a loser. You always have been. You never "got the girl;" you've never been anyone's hero. You had your chance during your "education," but you just sputtered and died on the launch pad. You didn't do shit. You're a failure. Always have been a failure. Worthless.

How long has it been since you moved out of your teenage bedroom, "What?" Do you still sleep there? Do you justify it, somehow? Do you tell your asshole friends that you're not going to 'waste money on an apartment?'

You're going to continue ad nauseam with your weak excuses and half-hearted explanations for why you're so pitiful. It's going to go on until you're a soft-bellied, ever-chuckling and fat sack of shit; cramming Doritos down your craw and drawing air only because your pussy father and cow mother see fit to feed and shelter you, contrary to their better judgment.

'Quail's got your number, don't he? If you disagree with 'Quail's prognosis, then go **** yourself. This is how I've got you figured, and if you want to change my mind, I'm in Conway, Arkansas. Look for the black Subaru on Ash Street. We'll sort it out in my front yard.

I won't be coming back to this site until this asshole is banned. If "What" stays, 'Quail leaves. Somebody PM me when his sorry ass is out of here.

Squawk.

[Matra et Alpine]

'QUail, put him in your block list, it's easier and saves you losing out on all the other UCP-fun.

-What-'s style IS questionable, but some of the info posted is of mild interest in his comments and responses. eg I now know definatley don't class drag racers as sportsmen ... pretty much the same with footballers like Perry - the "Fridge" - who was nothing more than an immovable mass :)

Until he's abusive, I think his posts are OK.
But don't worry, abuse will be dealt with strongly as he has now been warned and had an infraction and ban to make sure it was listened to.

[ballast]

geez guy's,i see a lot people getting all hot under the coller over this,and frankly -what-
has baited all of you.
if the guy want's to stir up a hornet's nest (and he obviously does)then agree to disagree
there's no point argueing with someone who's point of veiw is fixed because of his own ego,next time he starts a thread ignore it.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Ballast is the hammer, his point is the nail.

He's definately goading a lot of you. Take him for what he is and not so seriously.

He was banned for His abusive behaviour and it was hoped it would cause an Attitudinal Adjustment to curb his arrogance. We'll monitor his reactions very closely.

[henk4]

He was banned for His abusive behaviour


capital H????

[Rockefella]

Why not ?
-What- raise a questino based on lack of knowledge and so far we're seeing quite a few comments that -What- was unaware of and may influence his point of view.

re the car versus the man then if we look back we can find many examples of race drivers in "ordinary" cars driving faster than even performance cars. Jackie Stewart did it in a Capri ... more recently looking up Sabine's lap at the 'ring in a TRANSIT VAN as shown on Top Gear will educate on the difference a driver actually makes.

I understand that, but from knowing what through his posts and general demeanor, he'll just nitpick at the definition of athlete and sport. True, debates often go this way for ages but I doubt what is leaving his mind open towards convincing in the opposite direction.

If you think about it, I think a lot of you have this problem. The lengths of some of UCP's debates are simply just absurd, and nothing ever gets resolved. It's not as if your points being made are faulty or if the question at hand is one-sided but rather the ego of the participants involved. Any debates I partake in tend to be short because I have no problem with admitting a fault in my argument or knowledge. Some people just feel like they CAN'T BE WRONG.

By making this post, I suppose 20 will respond debating my points alone. Remember, I didn't bring up the GTR, ZR-1/ZO6, or the Revetec engine.

[kingofthering]

geez guy's,i see a lot people getting all hot under the coller over this,and frankly -what-
has baited all of you.
if the guy want's to stir up a hornet's nest (and he obviously does)then agree to disagree
there's no point argueing with someone who's point of veiw is fixed because of his own ego,next time he starts a thread ignore it.

Meh, who cares, it's fun for some of us. :p:)

[MRR]

A few things -WHAT-. Firstly, have you ever been driving for a long time and got tired? There is no doubt u have.

Yup long highway driving is the worst but caffeine is the answer! Lemans endurance racing would be worse in this respect (keep from falling asleep).

[henk4]

Meh, who cares, it's fun for some of us. :p:)

like the police academy movies?

[ScionDriver]

Athletes work all the year working at what they do. Race drivers train with weights and have to keep themselves in good health and do off-season testing and other obligations to their team and sponsers and league.

That is why I would justify they are athletes.

[henk4]

Athletes work all the year working at what they do. Race drivers train with weights and have to keep themselves in good health and do off-season testing and other obligations to their team and sponsers and league.

That is why I would justify they are athletes.

and they need to be as slim as possible, just to not to have to carry additional ballast:)

[lith8872]

capital H????
our worst fears have been confirmed, and it what "What" has thought from the very start...he IS God

[ruim20]

our worst fears have been confirmed, and it what "What" has thought from the very start...he IS God

hahah! i was thinking about that to :)

Now. -What-, what is your purpose when you come to this forum? do you seek information? do you come here to know about car news? for the pictures? what? really, what is your interest in the forum? :)

[SolidStradale]

Couldn't have put it any better.

[lith8872]

You can't compare Tiger Woods to Schumacher. The power given to the golf ball comes from Tiger...not a chemical reaction away from the "athlete". Tiger swings, Schumacher pushes a pedal. Yes, Schumacher must steer...in heat! But really, Schumacher can't propel a vehicle to go 150+ mph, the engine does.

but in the same vein, any sport that uses extra "tools" for lack of a better word is no longer considered such under your definition.

a baseball player couldn't hit a homer with a wiffle bat, but (s)he sure as hell can with a wooden one. and the skates on the hockey player? they're moving him along the ice aren't they?

and from someone who has done a lil bit of amateur drag racing, it can be exhausting...but then again it was the middle of summer so it may have just been the sun :p

and yes, racing does involve large sums of money. but then again, doesn't just about any sport? hockey equipment can cost, brand new, about a $1000 easilly for low end equipment, plus the cost of having to replace $100-150 sticks at least once or twice per game. this is money that a lot of kids don't have that want to start playing hockey, me being one of them when i was a youngster.


HELL YES



I don't know ANY rags-to-riches race car stories of modern day.

Ashley Force...SUCKS. But she still manages to win sometimes. You think she would be a PROFESSIONAL if her dad wasn't JOHN FORCE? You tellin' me that this girl has the athletic ability to compete with MEN? What type of "professional male athlete" loses to a GIRL in his respective sport?

My sister can beat me in UNO every now-and-then...but she'd NEVER beat me in a 100m foot race. NEVER.

ah yes, sexism makes everything better.

and for the record i have lost to girls in sports, and i'm not afraid to admit it. i've been beatin in running, long jump, and wrestling matches in the bedroom...

[IBrake4Rainbows]

capital H????

Non capital C?

We all know I worship Spongebob, let's not confuse the issue.

[kingofthering]

like the police academy movies?

I was going to say drinking liquor, but yeah, I'd guess that could work. :p

[h22a]

**** -what- off he's a complete muppet. I cant get enough of quails input - priceless
would be gutting to lose such a quality member

[ScionDriver]

... pretty much the same with footballers like Perry - the "Fridge" - who was nothing more than an immovable mass :)
Actually he was quite athletic. There was a video that circulated when he was with The Bears where in part of his workout he jumped flat-footed from the floor to the top of a regular sized kitchen table top and back down. For a 350+ pound guy to do that is pretty incredible.

[-What-]

ah yes, sexism makes everything better.
Ah yes...witch hunting at its best.

My comments weren't sexist, they were based on facts. Men have a physical advantage on women.



But he still had to work to get to that point.


Like that matters :rolleyes:
You're missing the point.


Let's just say for arguments' sake that you ARE capable of withstanding the physical effort of all the heat, G-forces etc, would you be able to perform the incredible feats of mental agility involved in wheel to wheel racing at >200mph, and under the unimaginable pressures put on you to not screw things up, every single lap of a race? I mean no disrespect, but I sincerely doubt it. Only a tiny minority of the thousands of kids who get into racing every single year will ever make it to the pinnacle of the sport. It's not because they're not fit enough or strong enough, but because they don't have the mentality of a racer and of a champion.

You don't doubt me, you doubt yourself. YOU can't do it. I can. I'm more physically fit than Schumacher ever was and AT BEST he MAY be able to MATCH ME in a mentally stressful situation.


Um for the same reason that rifle, shotgun, etc are Olympic sports.
So you think "rifling" is a sport? What about competitive checkers? Chess?


Here is my point...
All competitive activities (including racing) will have similarities with "sports". ALL. My problem with considering racing as a sport is that the actual athlete during the work of the "sport" is THE CAR. A car is not an athlete. Is it? So you argue that the drivers are the athletes? Why, because they have to press pedals and steer? Pfft...EVEN THEIR STEERING IS POWER ASSISTED.

Let me close a loop hole for some of you...I never said professional drivers are unable to be "athletic". My father runs marathons...but he isn't a professional athlete, so I'm not impressed with Schumacher playing in a pick-up soccer game. But when he's "at work", I find it difficult to consider him engaging in a "sport"...no matter how much he exercises off field. His conditioning is irrelevant to my open-minded opinion.

A racer losing 5 lbs in a race doesn't impress me either and it doesn't prove much. It's WATER WEIGHT. I'm sure the drivers drink liters upon liters of water pre-race with the expectations of sweating it all out. They are sweating because the car is hot...not because they are doing so much work...or maybe I'm wrong.

I'll try to find somewhere that offers a vehicle that I can drive that will give me some idea of what a professional racer feels.



No one has yet to defend professional drag racers.

[-What-]

It's 'Quail or "What." UCP's not big enough for the both of us.

It's ME.

At least it should be if you commit to removing yourself. But the reality is you aren't going anywhere. False threats.

It's ME.

I have opinions and I think I'm the greatest thing on SPACE...but I will not pressure other people into making actions on a PERSONAL PROBLEM I can handle myself. It is selfish and childish of you to GET ANGRY because PEOPLE ARE TALKING TO ME. If YOU don't like me, how about YOU don't talk to me. IGNORE ME. You have NOTHING to do with me. In fact, I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE. Why are you bothered by me? I'll make it easier for you to deal with me...I will never speak to you.


What a shallow ultimatum. This forum isn't big enough for ME ALONE...but you won't ever hear me asking for anyone else to be removed.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I'm just gonna take this from the top.


Ah yes...witch hunting at its best.

My comments weren't sexist, they were based on facts. Men have a physical advantage on women.

I would really like to see you go toe to toe with a female boxer. It'd be funny to see you lose teeth.


You're missing the point.

you had one?

You don't doubt me, you doubt yourself. YOU can't do it. I can. I'm more physically fit than Schumacher ever was and AT BEST he MAY be able to MATCH ME in a mentally stressful situation.

Schumacher is a World champion numerous times over.

You are some punk who gets banned from forums for a lack of common decency. If you can't handle normality, how the HELL can you say you handle stress properly?


So you think "rifling" is a sport? What about competitive checkers? Chess?

The Mental toughness and concentration involved in those events is high. Are they sports? Not to me. but I'm sure they require dedication and hard work to get right.


Here is my point...
All competitive activities (including racing) will have similarities with "sports". ALL. My problem with considering racing as a sport is that the actual athlete during the work of the "sport" is THE CAR. A car is not an athlete. Is it? So you argue that the drivers are the athletes? Why, because they have to press pedals and steer? Pfft...EVEN THEIR STEERING IS POWER ASSISTED.

So you are saying Equestrian events are not sports because the horse is doing the jumping?

Just because you are in control of something mechanical that is "doing the work" for you doesn't mean the driver isn't constantly making tiny inputs to make sure that particular vehicle does exactly what he/she wishes it to.

Let me close a loop hole for some of you...I never said professional drivers are unable to be "athletic". My father runs marathons...but he isn't a professional athlete, so I'm not impressed with Schumacher playing in a pick-up soccer game. But when he's "at work", I find it difficult to consider him engaging in a "sport"...no matter how much he exercises off field. His conditioning is irrelevant to my open-minded opinion.

Your open minded opinion?

You entered this argument with your mind made up, and spent the rest of the argument attempting to justify a shaky position.

Schumacher works as hard or harder than many sports people. Not only physically, but mentally and with an eye for business. Juggling the ability to control an 800hp rocket that responds to your slightest touch, controlling your body so you don't black out in corners, and so you don't get the shakes, is to completely sell short what these people do for a living.

I assume you sit at a desk all day?

A racer losing 5 lbs in a race doesn't impress me either and it doesn't prove much. It's WATER WEIGHT. I'm sure the drivers drink liters upon liters of water pre-race with the expectations of sweating it all out. They are sweating because the car is hot...not because they are doing so much work...or maybe I'm wrong.

Any intelligent athlete who knows they are going to lose that weight due to exertion does the smart thing and stocks there body with resources before entering the event. In the case of your fathers Marathons he would likely be taking cups of water or gatorade throughout the event.

Drivers will lose 5-10kg of weight in a hot car, 2-5 in a cold car. It's based as much on temperature as effort.

I'll try to find somewhere that offers a vehicle that I can drive that will give me some idea of what a professional racer feels.

No one has yet to defend professional drag racers.

Because No one is arguing about Drag Racers. They are built for speed. the same way supposed "athlete" blockers in NFL are built like Brick Houses. Doesn't make them quick or agile, It makes them big.

It's very typical of your argument that you are quick to criticise the work of Drivers such as Schumacher without ever actually experiencing what they do. No doubt your Eclipse was a G-force machine but it's hardly going to require the same amount of reflex-based input, focus and ability to look ahead and process information accordingly.

Remove head from Sphincter, then drive :)

[-What-]

Because No one is arguing about Drag Racers. They are built for speed. the same way supposed "athlete" blockers in NFL are built like Brick Houses. Doesn't make them quick or agile, It makes them big.

It's very typical of your argument that you are quick to criticise the work of Drivers such as Schumacher without ever actually experiencing what they do. No doubt your Eclipse was a G-force machine but it's hardly going to require the same amount of reflex-based input, focus and ability to look ahead and process information accordingly.

Remove head from Sphincter, then drive :)

So you're comparing drag racers (the vehicles) to football players (the humans)?

Don't read too deep, I have raced RACERS before. BUT, I will look to experience something FASTER to completely bust my self-made-myth.


--------

I would really like to see you go toe to toe with a female boxer. It'd be funny to see you lose teeth.
Wait a minute...I missed this one...

I can kill every woman in the world with my bare hands. There isn't a female alive that could stand up to my punch. My MANLY punch to her face would BREAK her. Don't compare me. Don't.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

So you're comparing drag racers (the vehicles) to football players (the humans)?

Don't read too deep, I have raced RACERS before. BUT, I will look to experience something FASTER to completely bust my self-made-myth.

Wow. Semantics. Thats what your argument is down to?

Dragsters = Vehicles
Drag Racers = Individuals who pilot them.

truly, an epic fail on your behalf.

[-What-]

Wow. Semantics. Thats what your argument is down to?

Dragsters = Vehicles
Drag Racers = Individuals who pilot them.

truly, an epic fail on your behalf.

No no...when you said "drag racers" I thought you meant like DRAGSTERS. In America it is common to refer to DRAGSTERS as drag racers. I am sorry for the confusion.

This is not an epic fail. You search for false victories like politicians.

[zeppelin]

Wait a minute...I missed this one...

I can kill every woman in the world with my bare hands. There isn't a female alive that could stand up to my punch. My MANLY punch to her face would BREAK her. Don't compare me. Don't.

Hah, oh my. Now you're just resorting to lame Maddox-esque "edgy" humour. I'm quite certain now that you're a fragile, pale nerd living in your parents' basement. At the very most, the house and cars you've posted photos of are your parents' as well. The quail's got you pegged, you'll be leeching off of them until they kick your sorry ass out onto the street. For now, just enjoy shitting up forums with your inane nerd rage comments.

At first it was kind of amusing, but the act is tired. I cannot believe you've not been banned yet.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Wait a minute...I missed this one...

I can kill every woman in the world with my bare hands. There isn't a female alive that could stand up to my punch. My MANLY punch to her face would BREAK her. Don't compare me. Don't.

If you weren't so delusional and serious I'd be laughing.

I wonder what your model girlfriend thinks about your rage and sexism issues.

Any supposed man who would even threaten violence against a woman is nothing more than a silly boy.

[-What-]

If you weren't so delusional and serious I'd be laughing.

I wonder what your model girlfriend thinks about your rage and sexism issues.

Any supposed man who would even threaten violence against a woman is nothing more than a silly boy.

I haven't threatened anyone and I definitely don't have rage or sexism issues. I respect everyone.

Guys, lets stay on subject and keep the conversation positive.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

......You cannot be serious.

Fine, you don't have rage issues.

You're Bipolar.

[Rockefella]

I haven't threatened anyone and I definitely don't have rage or sexism issues. I respect everyone.

Guys, lets stay on subject and keep the conversation positive.

I think you're on a mission here. I remember when you first troll'ed the forums you acted similarly, so we gave you a lengthy ban for something and you vanished for a while.

Is your goal to be banned, but without blatantly looking like you're trying to be banned?

[Matra et Alpine]

Ah yes...witch hunting at its best.
I'm more physically fit than Schumacher ever was and AT BEST he MAY be able to MATCH ME in a mentally stressful situation.
Seriously ?
First mentally ... consider your approach on this forum ... you're well below the ideal for a driver -- even a school bus driver :)
Next physically ... again unless you're in the top 5 percentile of fitness then you're dreaming. So pray do tell ... what is your daily physical work out. Your resting and exercising heart rate ?

a sport is that the actual athlete during the work of the "sport" is THE CAR.
Is a javelin doing the "work" ? WHat about a discuss ? Pole vaulter ? Tour de France rider ? How many well recognised sports does it take to realise that man has always used "equpment" in sports. So whether there is equipment or not woudl seem pointless argument.

So you argue that the drivers are the athletes? Why, because they have to press pedals and steer? Pfft...EVEN THEIR STEERING IS POWER ASSISTED.
Already pointed out to you the effort it takes to actually RACE a car.
THe power steering in a race car isnt' like in an SUV :)
Yes .. it has gotten "easier" with power steering ... BUT that is because it was getting physically impossible with the higher front grip levels to turn the wheels at the higher speeds !

No one has yet to defend professional drag racers.
Follow your own logic .... by that comparison then you are proposing that an 800 metre runner isn't in a sport because he's not running 100 m in sub 10s. Never mind a marathon runner. DIfferent subset of the sport, different "Measures" :)
Just because nobody defends a drag racer does not negate other forms of driver being involved ina a sport.
Most agree with the point that drag racers are likely not "athletes" .. but are competing in a competitive sport.
Suggest you go to your local track on any day and have a chat with the drivers there to understand what they do day-to-day and compare your fitness levels and "athletic prowess" :)

[ruim20]

Wait a minute...I missed this one...

I can kill every woman in the world with my bare hands. There isn't a female alive that could stand up to my punch. My MANLY punch to her face would BREAK her. Don't compare me. Don't.

YOU NEED TO GET PROFESSIONAL HELP!

There is still time to try and save yourself from the complete lunacy that is inside you!

You must understand that you have a serius mental problem, please seek help.

[Kooper]

Interesting question.

The way I see it is that racing drivers do not fall in the same category as professional ball-sport and track-and-field athletes, but they do compete in a sport.

I wouldn't call them athletes though, just professional racing drivers or professional racing navigators.


Athletes? I guess partly.

[henk4]

This is an example of physical exhaustion. I shot Marcus Lieb (a Porsche factory supported driver) having come in after a stint in the 2006 LMS race at the Nuerburgring GP track. He was fighting for the lead. After having been helped out by his teammate, the crew had to lay him down in the box. The weather wasn't even particularly hot. The car however had no problems to continue....

[Kooper]

This is an example of physical exhaustion. I shot Marcus Lieb (a Porsche factory supported driver) having come in after a stint in the 2006 LMS race at the Nuerburgring GP track. He was fighting for the lead. After having been helped out by his teammate, the crew had to lay him down in the box. The weather wasn't even particularly hot. The car however had no problems to continue....


Yep, racing is definitely a physically and mentally grueling activity. If it isn't a sport, maybe the term 'competitive showcase' will suffice?

I mean, it is a showcase of people with extraordinary hand-eye coordination, concentration, stamina and pure bravado. It's also a showcase in some cases of the engineering power that went into the equipment the racedrivers use.

It's the best of a combination of those qualities which makes a racedriver, as well of engineering and ingenuity.


Sport in a sense, yet so much more.

[Matra et Alpine]

Or how about this .... 2 hours driving flat out in scorching heat ( record hottest ever ) with no aircon :) and then getting out to push to finish.
YouTube - nigel mansell highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aedAO4jZLkg)
See at 03:25

[ringle]

Your question is misleading. Racing is not a sport. Auto racing is a business, plain and simple. Unless of course you are referring to amateur hobby racing. Be it F1, NASCAR, ALMS, LMS, WRC, etc. all have the goal of selling more cars/engines/parts, at a profit to the lowly consumer (read race fan). The drivers are simply highly paid professionals. Athletes...no, not by a long shot.

[RacingManiac]

The drivers are simply highly paid professionals. Athletes...no, not by a long shot.

Why not? Because they don't have any physical exertion since they are ONLY driving a car? I mean going back to Tiger Woods' example, is he not simply promoting Nike's golf equipment and help the company make a profit? Whatabout Cyclist endorsing a brand of bicycles?

[lith8872]

I shot Marcus Lieb

well that wasn't very nice of you

[Matra et Alpine]

well that wasn't very nice of you
http://www.goodgame.fr/graphs/shop/motifs/2421942.jpg (http://www.goodgame.fr/index.php?cat=shop&motive_id=2421942&utm_source=in_shop&utm_medium=motif_top3&utm_campaign=boutique_v4&utm_content=visuel_motif)
http://www.hoppala.com/resim/insanlar/images/parmak_cocuk.jpg

[Alastor]

Your question is misleading. Racing is not a sport. Auto racing is a business, plain and simple. Unless of course you are referring to amateur hobby racing. Be it F1, NASCAR, ALMS, LMS, WRC, etc. all have the goal of selling more cars/engines/parts, at a profit to the lowly consumer (read race fan). The drivers are simply highly paid professionals. Athletes...no, not by a long shot.

By your definition isn't every professional sport a business?

[kingofthering]

Ah yes...witch hunting at its best.


You're missing the point.



You don't doubt me, you doubt yourself. YOU can't do it. I can. I'm more physically fit than Schumacher ever was and AT BEST he MAY be able to MATCH ME in a mentally stressful situation.
.
You have got to be f**king kidding me. I was responding to the point you claim he had it all in front of him. No he didn't. He didn't wake up one morning and mommy and daddy handed him a kart and he won an F1 championship later.


Even if you were "physically stronger" than Schumacher (bull, bull,no questions) I'm willing to bet money you'd drop out of a head-to-head F1 race. But since you're what and God, I'm going to say you'd begin to claim he cheated.






Wait a minute...I missed this one...

I can kill every woman in the world with my bare hands. There isn't a female alive that could stand up to my punch. My MANLY punch to her face would BREAK her. Don't compare me. Don't.

My....Dear...God... (shakes head)

Is your ego that big that you would blindly fall into a trap and expose your weaknesses for further humiliation? ;)

But even Riflery is a sport. As the coach I know said, it's mostly mental work. It's not some walk up and fire a few damn shots. It takes finesse, mental strength, and experience. I'd like to see you, Mr. Football player, pick up, load a rifle, and hit 10 bull-eyes in a row.

Of course, you'd miss and start saying how you intentionally "failed" to avoid humiliating the rest of us, and how you'd be able to nail them all with an AK-47. Blindfolded. :rolleyes:

[h22a]

guys why are we responding to this utter crud. We all know -what- is a complete ****en goose and just stirs shit for the sake of it.

small dick, no job, no car, living with parents, insanely huge porn collection = -what-

[DesmoRob]

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to understand why race car drivers consider themselves to be ATHLETES. Athletes? Serious?

Answer this...is John Force a professional athlete? Jeff Gordon? Schumacher?


Why is racing considered a "sport" and their drivers "athletes" when 99% of the race depends on the CAR.

Are jockeys professional athletes? Are pilots athletes?



I like racing. I like it...but I want to understand the logic.


What about the dude sitting in the driver seat of the rally cars that tells the driver his upcoming route...is he an athlete? Has there been a race car driver that achieved an injury from over-stressing while performing his "sport"?


I am not trying to offend anyone.
__________________


Race car drivers have to work out in order to stay in fit mental and physical condition to perform properly. In case you aren't aware, racing isn't a cake walk. Have you seen schumacher?? His neck is probably twice the size of one of your thighs, from fighting G forces through corners all day long. Racing is a sport, and its called MOTOR sport. I emphasized the word 'motor' there because the sport is based on cars and their manufacturers competing against each other. The people that drive them have to have the best skills in order to show the full potential of the car. So in a nutshell, really its not so much about the people, but rather the car. By no means does that mean that the drivers aren't real athletes. Not everyone is cut out for the job. You try doing the 24 hours of le mans and get back to me.

[Rockefella]

He may not respond at this point.

[RacingManiac]

don't try the 24 hours of Le Mans, just try one of those 3 hour Kart races that I've seen at all sorts of local Kart track.....Meant for 3 guys per team, my race mechanic ex-coworker did the whole thing by himself, needs 2 guys to lift him from the Kart after....

[MrKipling]

Karting is hardcore - I can only imagine what a 70 lap F1 race must be like. Horrific i think.

Lewis Hamilton was recently described by the McLaren trainer as being "as fit or fitter than any Olympian" - and the McLaren trainer used to be an Olympic trainer.

You can blame Senna for that, he raised the game in terms of fitness.

Aside from the physical exertion required to pilot an F1 car (never mid survive a race) the fitter you are, the longer you'll be able to perform at your mental peak. Therefore, the fitter you are, the better competition driver you will be.

[henk4]

Karting is hardcore - I can only imagine what a 70 lap F1 race must be like. Horrific i think.

Lewis Hamilton was recently described by the McLaren trainer as being "as fit or fitter than any Olympian" - and the McLaren trainer used to be an Olympic trainer.

You can blame Senna for that, he raised the game in terms of fitness.

Aside from the physical exertion required to pilot an F1 car (never mid survive a race) the fitter you are, the longer you'll be able to perform at your mental peak. Therefore, the fitter you are, the better competition driver you will be.

greatly off topic, but: Welcome back....:)

[MrKipling]

Off topic? Really?

Cheers for the w/b though.

[henk4]

Off topic? Really?

Cheers for the w/b though.

not your post really, but the welcome was;)

[Matra et Alpine]

Pre-dated Senna for the best drivers :)

eg BBC "Superstars" show pitted top athletes from different sports against each other in strength, endurance, fitness tests ... hers'a couple of F1'ers ..... We didnt' see many after that due to the dearth of decent British drivers and of course now they earn too much money to want to bother doing a TV show :)

1973:
1 David Hemery - athletics
2 Barry John - rugby union
3 Joe Bugner - boxing
3 Jackie Stewart - Formula One
5 Roger Taylor - tennis
6 Bobby Moore - football
7 Tony Jacklin - golf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1976:
1 David Hemery - athletics
2 John Conteh - boxing
3 James Hunt - Formula One
4 Gareth Edwards - rugby union
5 David Duckham - rugby union
6 David Starbrook - judo
7 Jonah Barrington - squash
8 Malcom MacDonald - football
8 JPR Williams - rugby union
10 Stan Bowles - football


and a later "WOrld Superstars" had South African F-1 racer Jody Scheckter win in 1981

actual evidence on the athletisism of drivers ... adn agree it HAS become even more important

[RacingManiac]

Mr. Kipling brought up a good point, as if you are fit to endure the strain in driving a car for prolong period, you are less likely to be distracted due to your physical unwell-ness(if thats a word...lol). If you start to feel fatigue or pain and such you'll start thinking about those instead of actually driving and performing at your best...

[MrKipling]

actual evidence on the athletisism of drivers ... adn agree it HAS become even more important

I wonder how much that had to do with being naturally fit through driving the cars...

Or did these guys 'train' as well?

[Matra et Alpine]

I wonder how much that had to do with being naturally fit through driving the cars...

Or did these guys 'train' as well?
Jackie was an international clay pigeon shot. He was fit and did do "owrk outs" as much as they were in the 70s :)

James Hunt shagged everything that was breathing and possibly even some not. Smoked, drank copious amounts and "drugs" .. but mainly women. So I'm guessing sex really does make you fit :)

[MrKipling]

I've just thought of something else too: the fitter you are and better your strength and flexibility (ie through training) the less likely you are to be injured in a crash.

[lith8872]

I've just thought of something else too: the fitter you are and better your strength and flexibility (ie through training) the less likely you are to be injured in a crash.
but u should be avoiding that at all costs to begin with lol

[Homem de Gelo]

sport - Definitions from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport)

Thick As A Brick Lyrics (http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Albums/ThickAsABrick-lyrics.html)

;)

[Falcon500]

By making this post, I suppose 20 will respond debating my points alone. Remember, I didn't bring up the GTR, ZR-1/ZO6, or the Revetec engine.

Or old cars or a comparative american v8 that isnt a ls1.

[Falcon500]

and yes, racing does involve large sums of money. but then again, doesn't just about any sport? hockey equipment can cost, brand new, about a $1000 easilly for low end equipment, plus the cost of having to replace $100-150 sticks at least once or twice per game. this is money that a lot of kids don't have that want to start playing hockey, me being one of them when i was a youngster.

I have trained in kickboxing for the past year, The journey to my first kickboxing bout to be held this year has taken.

$17.50 A week at odd bods (local Gym) 910
$60 a month Bulldog gym membership (also an extra 30 a month to train with the boxers to improve head movement,hands and ringcraft but its an extra not a neccesity and only recent) 720
$45 bulldog gym canberra thai shorts
$25 redbull thai shorts
$30 3 pairs of wrist wraps
$15 anklets
$15 cup
$80 punch head gear
$80 punch 16oz gloves (leather)
$100 soiled, used by myself on a class trianing day to get qualifications for my personal training buisness in boxercise (legal requirement) 8oz vynil punch gloves,rag filled bodysheild and focus mitts
$50 thai pads again same as above reason only a kickboxing course this time
$30 mouth guard
$80 blood test and a physical (valid for 2 years)
$25 elastic shin guards (I hate the movement in the velcro ones)
$20 1 week membership at pheonix gym due to relocation for a week (and 2 BJJ classes that where pretty cool)

2225 so far and theres bits left out

And then theres things I get for free that people have to pay for like free membership at 2 other gyms (not as well stocked and further away and the other is work),massage, flexability, aromatherapy (amy much thanks) sauna, pool ,spa(work) ect ect.

Then there unmentionables as feeding myself costs alot (I eat alot and on training days I can eat 8 meals and still be hungry), Getting to and from trianing, protein powders, suppliments (which ive stopped because of lack of funds incidently) and most of all time I could be activly seeking more buisness for my own pt buisness which at $50-70 an hour is very lucrative.

That in itself could of gone to some grass roots motorsport.

[Jack_Bauer]

Why do you have memberships at two different gyms? Seems a tad excessive. You could surely cut down your outgoings a lot by just picking the best gym and sticking with it...

[Falcon500]

Why do you have memberships at two different gyms? Seems a tad excessive. You could surely cut down your outgoings a lot by just picking the best gym and sticking with it...

One a martial arts gym (bulldog gym canberra/queanbeyan) arts Gym With hand me down weights and equipment from underground gym (the boxers I mentioned before they lost their building in erindale and shacked up with us), Also the place has no no cardio equipment past skipping ropes and my own 2 feet.

And ones a traditional Gym (odd bods) that has a full compliment of weights and cardio equipment but has a "boxing room" with 2 beaten up and soft (rag filled no sand) genereic punching bags and 2 almost deflated speedballs and long forgotten pads and mitts that are about ready to disintergrate that where thrown into the room more for decoration then anything else.

But the credentials speak highly of the place We are the only gym in the ACT to have a person fight at k-1 level (ben edwards 1/3/0 in k-1) that I am aware of we also currently have 2 amature titels with hopes of extending this to 5 next promotion (we have had much more but had several early retirements and ben at one stage had 3). Ben will soon be going for a world titel went to serbia to get it too but the fighter pulled out and put some 6'8 140ish kilo guy in his place who ben ko'ed 2nd round now hes comming to australia for a reschedule because of the many issues that came from being in serbia (similar to the movie Hostel i was told) which is great because ill get to see it.

And I cant forget Garys boys the boxers from underground where we are graced by a 1 time (hopefully soon to be 2x) olympiad and a commonwealth games medalist too so we arent stressed for skill :)

Odd bods has several athletes of various skills too (stair running, marathon, rugby to even power lifting and bodybuilding among many others) And I have found that their advise and skills have grown my own base and they all have relevant info that can be used in alot of sports. They also offer good rental fees to outside trianers who are members charging practically nothing depending on how much I make from my clients.

I consider the places to like a ying-yang setup they compliment eachother they have what the other lacks :) long winded I know but its a subject Im passionate about I only wish space and money would allow the bulldog gym to have a better weights setup and even a peice or 2 of cardio equipment :(

[Jack_Bauer]

I consider the places to like a ying-yang setup they compliment eachother they have what the other lacks :) long winded I know but its a subject Im passionate about I only wish space and money would allow the bulldog gym to have a better weights setup and even a peice or 2 of cardio equipment :(

Pfft, cardio equipment is for girls! Get yourself a decent pair of running shoes and/or a bicycle. Maybe go swimming every now and then too. The only cardio machine I ever use in the gym is the Concept II, but it's kinda hard to go rowing in the real world whenever you fancy it!

One of my real bug-bears is people who go to a gym just to go on a treadmill or sit on an exercise bike and read a magazine. Just go outside in the fresh air for goodness' sake!

As for the weights, what kind of setup does the martial arts gym have? Can you not pressure them to get/make a cheap squat rack, get some second hand barbells and plates, maybe some kettlebells if they're readily available down there? That wouldn't take up too much space would it? Everyone wins that way as far as I can see. The gym gets a better set-up and would appeal to a much wider clientèle, and their members wouldn't have to keep going elsewhere to work on their strength, they could keep it all in-house and gain a greater control of what their fighters are doing. Plus you'd save money!

[Falcon500]

I was about to complain about the cold and rain we have been getting here but you come from the uk so that really nulifies that rebuttle :p

And I agree with you on the cardio equipment part go hard or go home.

But as for the space in the gym its an industrial complex that houses john and his family in the upper portion and also has ben in what was the store front. For the gym floor we have a space that can happily take 25 people full selection of pads,mitts,shin guards etc and 3 heavy bags a tear drop bag 2 speed balls a full sized ring and half a ring a chin up bar/roman chair fills the main training hall.

Our weights room is a converted 2 car garage With a squat rack and bench press and for pin loaded equipment we have a lateral deltoid raise, leg extenstion,hamstring curl and a militery press machine and 2 sets of dumbells (10kg,12.5kg) and about half a metre to move around in :( although there may be light at the end of the tunnel we may be entiteled to even more land then we have (in which case john said hell build a proper weights room) It has potential but a proper dumbells setup and enough room to clean & jerk, exercise bikes and geographical convinece keep me gravitating back too oddbods.

And the bulldog gym isnt full time either it operates around 4pm-8pm (and early morning boxercise as opposed 5am-9pm at od bods) which would of been fixed if we didnt have so many issues getting that thai fellow imported but it didnt happen and the space that thai trianer was going to take up now has ben in it.

Im eagerly awaiting the results of this land issue on the basis ill save money, might even make money depending on how things turn out :)

[Matra et Alpine]

:) Come on Falc ... be honest ......

One gym is for working out, getting all knackered and sweaty and sore.

The other gym is for looking cool and picking up the ladies :)

[Falcon500]

:) Come on Falc ... be honest ......

One gym is for working out, getting all knackered and sweaty and sore.

The other gym is for looking cool and picking up the ladies :)

Mate I hit paydirt when the year 12 girls (entry collage years usually 17-18 usually done at highschool for the benafit of our american friends) of nearly every local highschool chose to go there for extra class choices.

And there I was the only bloke in the gym at that time of day and lets not forget to mention knew what I was talking about in there and had a more intresting job then most ;)

[togos452]

Hmm

Ask Jaime Melo

YouTube - Battle - Final lap ALMS Sebring GT2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I)

Jaime Melo :: Brasil (http://www.jaimemelojr.com/)

[Badsight]

didnt read the thread . . . . . but :

F1 drivers especially need to be work fit to endure the extremes faced punting the car around - as in athlete work fit

& yes , in car racing the car is the biggest part of the equation when it comes to winning

but just to compete close to the same level , you need a decent level of fitness

[borgward]

It's like being a horse jockey. Their goggles get mudded up, can't see a thing. I was going full tilt down a mile long straight. It was raining and spitting snow at Ft Sumner NM. Hit a really cold pocket of air The bubble shield on my Bell Helmet fogged up. Could not see a thing. Could not get my fingers inside the shield to wipe the fog away. Ripped it off and gritted my teeth.

Now days it really is grueling the way you pull so many G's in a corner that you need to build up your neck muscles.

I could go on.

[NSXType-R]

Wow, what an old thread.

Bordward, welcome to the forums. It's interesting when members bring up old threads, even when you've been here since 2012. So many old members who don't post anymore.