Castro steps down!! :^)

[roosterjuicer]

Well boys that SOB fidel castro has finally stepped down. And as a first generation Cuban-American i gotta say i am very happy and to is my family. Im sure this wont make a lick of difference because his government is still in power and, to be honest he has been more of a figurehead than anything the past few years. But either way he has caused my family and friends so much heartache and made life soo crappy for Cuba that im glad to see him step down (i cant wait till he's dead:D)

whats your guys take?

[NSXType-R]

This is weird. I had thought that all Cubans loved Castro. It's a wrong stereotype for me to assume that.

But, I guess I can relate to your hatred of your country's former leader. I am first generation Chinese, and I hate Mao Zedong probably just as much as you hate Castro.

[ZeTurbo]

Official (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/02/19/castro-cuba.html)
I cant see it make much difference though...

[dydzi]

i wouldn't be surprised if he's already dead. anyhow, nothing will change as long as raul is the leader

[SlickHolden]

I have never herd a good thing about him?.

[Niko_Fx]

Who's Castro?

[baddabang]

Who's Castro?

Syntec?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

So another Communist with Nepotism. Curious.

[MadMax13]

Gotta love the haters and Castro, what would they do without him???. It will be interesting though to see where it goes with brother...

[Blue Supra]

He's not all bad.

Cuba has much better healthcare then the States... but thats not really much of an accomplishment i suppose.

[Niko_Fx]

He's not all bad.

Cuba has much better healthcare then the States... but thats not really much of an accomplishment i suppose.

He'll kill you for speaking your mind... Pretty damn bad if you ask me.

[digitalcraft]

Gotta love the haters and Castro, what would they do without him???. It will be interesting though to see where it goes with brother...

Don't worry, they've still got France.

[werty]

YouTube - Castro Falls on his face (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ctBeqRJK4GM)

[nota]

YouTube - US sinks in a bay of pigs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMA7Jv1RWIA&feature=related)

[lightweight]

Cuba has much better healthcare then the States... but thats not really much of an accomplishment i suppose.

You've been watching Michael Moore's "Sicko":)

[roosterjuicer]

He's not all bad.

Cuba has much better healthcare then the States... but thats not really much of an accomplishment i suppose.

He's pretty much all bad. I can tell you firsthand that paying for your own medical care is a lot better than living in Cuba.

in addition to killing you if you speak against him as someone stated earlier people in cuba are hungry. i have been there several times and i speak relatively often with family members out there and they have to ration everything there. a perfect example of this is before castro "communized" everything she used to have a lot of pet birds but shortly after castro the birds all died because according to her, "birds dont have ration cards". people there have no freedom, no technology, most dont have tv's or cars. there are constant rolling blackouts, the streets are decrepid, there are very few parts available to fix anything when it breaks, and although there are tons of great beaches there most of them are off limits to Cubans and reserved for tourists, the same goes for restaurants and airports. People there have nothing to strive for, nothing to work for, no reason to do much more than the bare minimum to survive. having decent food is a much better way to stay healthy than free medical care.

And yes, everyone gets free healthcare but you have to wait for rediculously long ammounts of time and the medical care is very substandard compared to what we get here when it comes to surgery and stuff like that. if you ever need to get something serious done, you can forget about it due to lack of technology, poor training and just an overall broken system...but its free.

[Jack_Bauer]

in addition to killing you if you speak against him as someone stated earlier people in cuba are hungry. i have been there several times and i speak relatively often with family members out there and they have to ration everything there. a perfect example of this is before castro "communized" everything she used to have a lot of pet birds but shortly after castro the birds all died because according to her, "birds dont have ration cards". people there have no freedom, no technology, most dont have tv's or cars. there are constant rolling blackouts, the streets are decrepid, there are very few parts available to fix anything when it breaks, and although there are tons of great beaches there most of them are off limits to Cubans and reserved for tourists, the same goes for restaurants and airports. People there have nothing to strive for, nothing to work for, no reason to do much more than the bare minimum to survive. having decent food is a much better way to stay healthy than free medical care.


It should be noted that the economic struggles of Cuba are largely down to the crippling economic and commercial embargo imposed by the United States since 1962; an embargo which has long since been widely condemned by most of the international community. Cubans struggle to get their hands on good quality health supplies and food stuffs because they are unable to get them from America.

Also, comparing things to how Cuba was prior to Castro is not a wise argument. Things were arguably considerably worse under the rule of Batista, both in terms of political suppression and human rights abuses, and in terms of the general welfare of the Cuban people.

[Matra et Alpine]

He's pretty much all bad. I can tell you firsthand that paying for your own medical care is a lot better than living in Cuba.Unless you're getting old or are under 5 perhaps ?

According to the World Health Organisation a Cuban man can expect to live to 75 and a woman to 79. The probability of a child dying aged under five is five per 1,000 live births. That is better than the US and on a par with the UK.
Cuba provides a doctor for every 170 residents, ahead of the US where the ratio is 1 to 188.

an overall broken system
The real numbers suggest it ain't broke :)

and .....
BBC NEWS | Business | Medical know-how boosts Cuba's wealth (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4583668.stm)
clearly being regarded outside of Suba too :)

Perhaps too much Fox News and anti-Moore bias ?
Hey, I agree Moore is a manipulative, distorting lens on every program he's ever made. BUT that doesn't make the core information erroneous :)

[wwgkd]

He'll kill you for speaking your mind... Pretty damn bad if you ask me.

Hehe, true, but at least that will get rid of any diseases you may have had.

[magracer]

Only good things can happen with Castro stepping down. He's leaving a "democratic" system in place, so, I guess we'll soon see if the people love Raul as much as Fidel (I think not). We'll also see if what held together the revolution was the icon (Fidel), or the goodness of the system. Weird thing is that even if they have to cue for food (crapy food that is), they love the guy, but I think that is because they don't know anything else.

A few random thoughts:
1. They do have a very strong health system, and very good doctors, who earn all of USD$20 a month (or something close to that).
2. The problem with communism, is that there is still a ruling class that enjoys all the rewards of capitalism, so not everybody is equal.
3. The problem with government managing all markets is that there are always parallel markets that reap rewards for the crooked ones (very often in the government) at the expense of the civilians.
4. I'd too impose an embargo if someone allowed missiles pointed towards me to be installed in their backyard.

[MadMax13]

I only call them "haters" because under Castro has been MILES better than Batista. Cuba isnt great now but at least EVERYONE has access to healthcare, an education and other luxuries that only the Americans and the rich had under Batista...

[MadMax13]

Only good things can happen with Castro stepping down. He's leaving a "democratic" system in place, so, I guess we'll soon see if the people love Raul as much as Fidel (I think not). We'll also see if what held together the revolution was the icon (Fidel), or the goodness of the system. Weird thing is that even if they have to cue for food (crapy food that is), they love the guy, but I think that is because they don't know anything else.

A few random thoughts:
1. They do have a very strong health system, and very good doctors, who earn all of USD$20 a month (or something close to that).
2. The problem with communism, is that there is still a ruling class that enjoys all the rewards of capitalism, so not everybody is equal.
3. The problem with government managing all markets is that there are always parallel markets that reap rewards for the crooked ones (very often in the government) at the expense of the civilians.
4. I'd too impose an embargo if someone allowed missiles pointed towards me to be installed in their backyard.

Communism only contains a ruling class because the leader of the country isnt a REAL Communist, Socialist, etc.. And dont be stupid, embargos effect no one but the general population, the assholes, like Kim Jong Il, still enjoy lavish lives while the people suffocate...

[MadMax13]

This is weird. I had thought that all Cubans loved Castro. It's a wrong stereotype for me to assume that.

But, I guess I can relate to your hatred of your country's former leader. I am first generation Chinese, and I hate Mao Zedong probably just as much as you hate Castro.

No, the majority of the people that DONT like Castro were the middle and upper classes, the ones that had access to the shit the poor and the working classes DIDNT, not to mention those that lived outside Havana, in the hills. As far as Mao, dont compare Mao to Castro, Mao was a cunt that ruled through fear and propaganda, Mao ran China into the ground while Castro built Cuba up for the have nots...

[magracer]

Castro built Cuba up for the have nots...

Have you been to cuba? I have. Have you spoken to anybody born and raised in Cuba. I have.
Have you lived in Cuba? I haven't, but one of my closest friends did for six months.
From where I see it, he only made it better for the have nots by converting everybody (that isn't in the government) into a have not.



EVERYONE has access to healthcare, an education and other luxuries that only the Americans and the rich had under Batista... ...

Yes, good healthcare...

So tell me now, how does being well educated serves you if you earn a pittance (do a search, USD$10 to $20 a month, plus stamps ) , and you can' t even travel overseas to apply to a better job. Hell, you don't even have access to the internet! Yes, unemployment is below 2%, but agian, they pay $20 bucks a month for an educated employee!!!

I can tell you they don't even have access to candy, so what "other luxuries" are you talking about?

Ok, so Batista was a dictator, and he stole and he was bad, but the revolution's solution was to put another dictator (49 years for gods sake!) in place, and for the people to loose all notions of freedom.

[MadMax13]

Have you been to cuba? I have. Have you spoken to anybody born and raised in Cuba. I have.
Have you lived in Cuba? I haven't, but one of my closest friends did for six months.
From where I see it, he only made it better for the have nots by converting everybody (that isn't in the government) into a have not.




Yes, good healthcare...

So tell me now, how does being well educated serves you if you earn a pittance (do a search, USD$10 to $20 a month, plus stamps ) , and you can' t even travel overseas to apply to a better job. Hell, you don't even have access to the internet! Yes, unemployment is below 2%, but agian, they pay $20 bucks a month for an educated employee!!!

I can tell you they don't even have access to candy, so what "other luxuries" are you talking about?

Ok, so Batista was a dictator, and he stole and he was bad, but the revolution's solution was to put another dictator (49 years for gods sake!) in place, and for the people to loose all notions of freedom.

Been to Cuba, as has most of my family. It didnt convert everyone into a have not, it converted the filthy ****ing rich into the average man, everyones equal instead of an upper class exploiting the working. As far as education its the basics they were being denied, before the revolution the VAST MAJORITY of the people living outside of Havana could neither read nor write, thats not counting the ones that didnt have an education IN Havana. Dont forget that $20 a month is livable in Cuba, while $300-$600 is not in the US. And candy, lol, icecream, once reserved for only the rich, is now accessable to everyone...

[aNOBLEman]

Been to Cuba, as has most of my family. It didnt convert everyone into a have not, it converted the filthy ****ing rich into the average man, everyones equal instead of an upper class exploiting the working. As far as education its the basics they were being denied, before the revolution the VAST MAJORITY of the people living outside of Havana could neither read nor write, thats not counting the ones that didnt have an education IN Havana. Dont forget that $20 a month is livable in Cuba, while $300-$600 is not in the US. And candy, lol, icecream, once reserved for only the rich, is now accessable to everyone...

If you were really rich would you enjoy being turned into an "average man?" Also I do not believe that every rich person out there is exploiting the poorer people. People can become rich and still be nice believe it or not.

[The_Canuck]

Why in gods name would Cuban's regularily risk their lives floating to florida on boats made of cars from the 50's, if Cuba was an even remotely good place to live for the common man?

[kingofthering]

Been to Cuba, as has most of my family. It didnt convert everyone into a have not, it converted the filthy ****ing rich into the average man, everyones equal instead of an upper class exploiting the working.

How would you feel if I yanked every cent you had, burned down your house, and destroyed your goods in the name of converting you into an average man?

Exactly ;)

The rich may be assholes, but they still have feelings.

[MadMax13]

How would you feel if I yanked every cent you had, burned down your house, and destroyed your goods in the name of converting you into an average man?

Exactly ;)

The rich may be assholes, but they still have feelings.

I AM THE AVERAGE ****ING MAN!!!. When the top 6% or so own 97% of the wealth i think seizing and redistributing the wealth is a pretty good ****ing idea. Put that on top of a national health system, which is the leading cause of poverty in the US, and guaranteed college education id be a much happier man...

[kingofthering]

I AM THE AVERAGE ****ING MAN!!!. When the top 6% or so own 97% of the wealth i think seizing and redistributing the wealth is a pretty good ****ing idea. Put that on top of a national health system, which is the leading cause of poverty in the US, and guaranteed college education id be a much happier man...

You don't get it, do you? How would you feel if I took everything you had and handed it down to whatever hobo walked in front? Would you still be happy?

As nice as socialized health care is, I don't think the United States is ready for it yet. So is guaranteed college is good, as long both are it's kept to legal residents only.

[MadMax13]

I wanna know why everyone seems to think im some dreadlocked wannabe Rasta with rich parents in Monterey???...

[MadMax13]

You don't get it, do you? How would you feel if I took everything you had and handed it down to whatever hobo walked in front? Would you still be happy?

As nice as socialized health care is, I don't think the United States is ready for it yet. So is guaranteed college is good, as long both are it's kept to legal residents only.


I GUARANTEE if they seized and liquidated the assets of the ultra rich my quality of living would increase dramatically...

[kingofthering]

I GUARANTEE if they seized and liquidated the assets of the ultra rich my quality of living would increase dramatically...

Try telling that to the Chinese. Some of those assets they seized belong to my mother's family, leaving them with nothing. Do you think that was fair?


Yet, 60 years later, a majority of China is still the same crappy shithole it might have been. ;)

Also, history dictates that the politically motivated tended to be upper-middle class who have money. ;)

[MadMax13]

Thats because those assets were only redistributed to the ultra rich, NOT the general population. Not to mention the government their isnt, and never WAS, a true communist government, thats why theres ultra rich assholes having murals painted all over their mansions while people starve outside...

[my porsche]

I AM THE AVERAGE ****ING MAN!!!. When the top 6% or so own 97% of the wealth i think seizing and redistributing the wealth is a pretty good ****ing idea.
That's a terrible idea.

[magracer]

Time for a joke...

A working man sends his daugther to college and she learns about socialism, and rightfully so comes back home with the idea that it should be the way things are run. The parent discusses the pros and cons with the girl but they don't get to a common point.

So the dad moves on, and asks about her grades. She says she worked her ass off and did very well, getting an A average. The dad then asks about her friend Mary. She says she partied a lot, simply didn't focus on her subjects and as a result got a C average. The dad says that she should propose the administrators to give her and Mary a B average, as they are so close. She obviously refuses arguing she worked her ass off for her grades and Mary didn't. The father just says "see, that's socialism at work".

Get it? :rolleyes:

The idea is great, but the execution almost everywhere has been awful.

And about healthcare, they have great doctors and probably great hospitals, but more than often they lack medicines!

[Kitdy]

That's a terrible idea.

I can see some merits of making the ultra-rich less rich.

[Matra et Alpine]

Why in gods name would Cuban's regularily risk their lives floating to florida on boats made of cars from the 50's, if Cuba was an even remotely good place to live for the common man?
Because they currently earn $20 a month and are already educated and see that in the US they could earn $500 a month. Shame so many end up in ghettos, with no healthcare earning $400 a month and costs of $600 :(
They've bought into the capitalism dream that anyone can become a mllionaire .... not looking with open eyes to see how many start out to do so and fail along the way ?
Can propose a hundred reasons :) The myth of "freedom" is only one :D

[Matra et Alpine]

That's a terrible idea.
Only because of scarry McCarthyist views embeeded in the psyche :)

You dont' take ALL the wealth ... that's revolution no socialism or communism !

It's about redistribution and again that does NOT Mean everyone is "equal", but that the lowest paid jobs earn a living wage and that the gap between the richest paid and the poorest is not so wide. It's frightening to compare the salary of the CEO to the salary of the lowest hourly rate employee in some companies. It's not THAT big a contribution to the company difference ! Yes, good companies try to not make it wide, but they are few and far between.

So, putting the scary neo-con boogy-man in the closest stories aside, there is value in redistribution. Equally it's worth considering taxing income from assets higher than we currently do ( in nearly all nations ) as the ultra rich use those to get even richer with NO effort, no "worth" and at the cost to someone else.

[Matra et Alpine]

I can see some merits of making the ultra-rich less rich.
As they did themselves and a few do today.

Look at Carnegie .... look around the world and see how many "gifts to the community" he funded ! ( LIke to point out he was SCOTTISH :) )

[Kitdy]

As they did themselves and a few do today.

Look at Carnegie .... look around the world and see how many "gifts to the community" he funded ! ( LIke to point out he was SCOTTISH :) )

From my grandfather's town.

He could have paid his workers better.

[Matra et Alpine]

Time for a joke...
The dad says that she should propose the administrators to give her and Mary a B average, as they are so close. She obviously refuses arguing she worked her ass off for her grades and Mary didn't. The father just says "see, that's socialism at work".

Get it? :rolleyes:
Well funny stories are just that ... could equally have written the punchline as ...

Dad sends a cheque to the adminstrators and so his daughter never has to sit the exam and because that is only in rich schools, Mary drops out as there is poor schooling for the rest. The father says " See that's capitalism at work"

Get that ?:D

Re drugs in Cuba ... lets see ..... which nation has had an embargo on CUba for the last 40 years ? Know how much paperwork it takes to get the US to agree to sales to Cuba ? You have to prove that every tablet/injection will NOT get to a soldier, airman or sailer -- when you rationlise trying to achieve that it's clearly untenable. The US are acting like the French did over VCRs in the 80s !! Yes you CAN do it but just see how much red tape puts you off bothering :)

Also, Cuba's esporting lots of it's medicines and skills. WOudl be interesting to see the figures on that as it grabs headlines but I'm not sure of the real numbers.

[MadMax13]

Dont forget that dozens of Americans are going to Cuba to get their medical degrees, because its free, with the promise that when they return home they administer healthcare to the poor for free...












Oh, and the US has no problem with that, i wonder why???...

[roosterjuicer]

'cmon now, take a common sense approach. if communsism was so great, why did they have to build a wall to stop people from crossing into west germany? if cuba is so great how come people float here in little rafts and die quite often doing it? if cuba is so great why arent Americans and people from other first world countries immigrating there?

ill answer it for you...BECAUSE ITS A CRAPHOLE!!! AND THE SYSTEM DOESNT WORK!!!!

Everybody in Cuba is a "have not" unless they are high ranking government officialls. You should see some of my family's pictures from before castro and compare them to now its like night and day. My family was not rich, but they werent poor, they were middle class and people who did nothing to earn my family's house got to live in it for no reason.

And guess what, while some people have been wronged in one way or another and have become second class citizens, a vast majority of second class citizens are there because of their own fault. (GASP!) Open your eyes, if you dont get good grades as a kid your not gonna be able to go to college, if you decide to screw around instead of working hard at your job your not going to move up, if you blow your paychecks on playstations, booze, drugs, tv's, ect... and dont save it for a rainy day or the future your not gonna have money to spend on healthcare or education. If you get pregnant at a young age without a decent job or the means to support a kid, life is not gonna be easy. And its nobody's responsiblity but your own.

And what is all this talk of a "Guaranteed college education". That is rediculous, you need to work hard and be the best to get to college. thats the whole point of it college is made to separate the good from the mediocre. then graduate school separates the great from the good and so on and so on. if everyone went to college, then it wouldn't be special and a degree wouldn't be worth as much.

[MadMax13]

'cmon now, take a common sense approach. if communsism was so great, why did they have to build a wall to stop people from crossing into west germany? if cuba is so great how come people float here in little rafts and die quite often doing it? if cuba is so great why arent Americans and people from other first world countries immigrating there?

ill answer it for you...BECAUSE ITS A CRAPHOLE!!! AND THE SYSTEM DOESNT WORK!!!!

Everybody in Cuba is a "have not" unless they are high ranking government officialls. You should see some of my family's pictures from before castro and compare them to now its like night and day. My family was not rich, but they werent poor, they were middle class and people who did nothing to earn my family's house got to live in it for no reason.

And guess what, while some people have been wronged in one way or another and have become second class citizens, a vast majority of second class citizens are there because of their own fault. (GASP!) Open your eyes, if you dont get good grades as a kid your not gonna be able to go to college, if you decide to screw around instead of working hard at your job your not going to move up, if you blow your paychecks on playstations, booze, drugs, tv's, ect... and dont save it for a rainy day or the future your not gonna have money to spend on healthcare or education. If you get pregnant at a young age without a decent job or the means to support a kid, life is not gonna be easy. And its nobody's responsiblity but your own.

And what is all this talk of a "Guaranteed college education". That is rediculous, you need to work hard and be the best to get to college. thats the whole point of it college is made to separate the good from the mediocre. then graduate school separates the great from the good and so on and so on. if everyone went to college, then it wouldn't be special and a degree wouldn't be worth as much.

People float to the US A. because they think its still the land of opportunity, where ANYONE can achieve greatness and B. because they cant fly. Not EVERYONE is a have not, theyre average, and while your family was one of the few middle class families the majority of the country was illiterate and poor. Im not a second class citizen because i dont work hard, im a second class citizen because i have dual citizenship and ENTRY LEVEL JOBS DONT ****ING PAY A LIVING WAGE!!!. EVERYONE has to start out at an entry level job, its what happens after high school, no matter how well you did grade wise, its the fact that living expenses are increasing while pay is not. College should be available for EVERYONE and be PAYED BY TAXES, yeah you should only get in if you work to but i worked for decent grades so i could get into college only i cant pay for it and my parents wont. If the country made college available to EVERYONE then youd probably have a shitload more kids going to college...

[kingofthering]

People float to the US A. because they think its still the land of opportunity, where ANYONE can achieve greatness and B. because they cant fly. Not EVERYONE is a have not, theyre average, and while your family was one of the few middle class families the majority of the country was illiterate and poor. Im not a second class citizen because i dont work hard, im a second class citizen because i have dual citizenship and ENTRY LEVEL JOBS DONT ****ING PAY A LIVING WAGE!!!. EVERYONE has to start out at an entry level job, its what happens after high school, no matter how well you did grade wise, its the fact that living expenses are increasing while pay is not. College should be available for EVERYONE and be PAYED BY TAXES, yeah you should only get in if you work to but i worked for decent grades so i could get into college only i cant pay for it and my parents wont. If the country made college available to EVERYONE then youd probably have a shitload more kids going to college...

ya'know, if you hate the spirit of America so much, you're welcome to walk right out. That's right. You don't have to stay. I'm sure you're more than welcome.

If everyone was paid the same wage, there wouldn't be any motivation for Ph.Ds. If I'm going to be paid as much as the McDonalds cashier down the street, why the f**k would I be a doctor?

The idea of free college is great. Unfortunately it will turn every college into something along the lines of Berkley or UCLA- impersonal and cold.

But there's a thing called "community college". It's like college, but it's cheaper and people don't look as favorably on you compared to other students. There's also this wild new thing called scholarships. Where people pay so you can go. You've got some shit going on, so I'm sure there's gotta be some money out there with your name on it.

[Kitdy]

People float to the US A. because they think its still the land of opportunity, where ANYONE can achieve greatness and B. because they cant fly. Not EVERYONE is a have not, theyre average, and while your family was one of the few middle class families the majority of the country was illiterate and poor. Im not a second class citizen because i dont work hard, im a second class citizen because i have dual citizenship and ENTRY LEVEL JOBS DONT ****ING PAY A LIVING WAGE!!!. EVERYONE has to start out at an entry level job, its what happens after high school, no matter how well you did grade wise, its the fact that living expenses are increasing while pay is not. College should be available for EVERYONE and be PAYED BY TAXES, yeah you should only get in if you work to but i worked for decent grades so i could get into college only i cant pay for it and my parents wont. If the country made college available to EVERYONE then youd probably have a shitload more kids going to college...

I think higher education should be taxpayer paid as well, and I think that in the States, more kids would go if this were the case, but I've heard that a higher percentage of kids attend university in Canada where you have to pay for secondary education than the UK where it is free.

[Matra et Alpine]

king ... there is NO political system in the world which EVER said everyone is paid the same !
Too much Fox influence :)

[Kitdy]

king ... there is NO political system in the world which EVER said everyone is paid the same !
Too much Fox influence :)

I think certain strands of communism can be interpreted as such, and in some idealised communist situations, everyone is paid the same amount of money $0, as there is no need for currency as we know it today.

[kingofthering]

king ... there is NO political system in the world which EVER said everyone is paid the same !
Too much Fox influence :)

Actually, I was referring to an earlier post.

[my porsche]

I can see some merits of making the ultra-rich less rich.

Sorry, I can't. The ultra-rich are so because they've found a way to either do something no one has done before, or do something better than everyone else. Taking their wealth from them would essentially be punishing them for having ingenuity and work ethic.


College should be available for EVERYONE and be PAYED BY TAXES, yeah you should only get in if you work to but i worked for decent grades so i could get into college only i cant pay for it and my parents wont. If the country made college available to EVERYONE then youd probably have a shitload more kids going to college...

College IS available to everyone, so long as you work hard in school and get good grades. If you can't, and/or your parents can't pay for it, no big deal. There are state sponsored schools which offer cheaper tuition, there are scholarships, there are student loans. The thought that people should pay higher taxes so that you can receive free college instead of taking out a student loan and working to pay for your college is utterly ridiculous.



Look at Carnegie ...( LIke to point out he was SCOTTISH :) )

How did I know if he was brought up in this thread, it would be by you? :D


everyone is paid the same amount of money $0, as there is no need for currency as we know it today.
Except then there is no incentive whatsoever to do work. People are lazy by nature, so if they don't see any return for their work, will they even bother? No. If no one makes any money, then the entire consumer market ceases to exist, because there is no one to buy the products. So, if there is no consumer market, what are all of these non-wage earning workers going to do?

[MadMax13]

ya'know, if you hate the spirit of America so much, you're welcome to walk right out. That's right. You don't have to stay. I'm sure you're more than welcome.

If everyone was paid the same wage, there wouldn't be any motivation for Ph.Ds. If I'm going to be paid as much as the McDonalds cashier down the street, why the f**k would I be a doctor?

The idea of free college is great. Unfortunately it will turn every college into something along the lines of Berkley or UCLA- impersonal and cold.

But there's a thing called "community college". It's like college, but it's cheaper and people don't look as favorably on you compared to other students. There's also this wild new thing called scholarships. Where people pay so you can go. You've got some shit going on, so I'm sure there's gotta be some money out there with your name on it.

Here we go with the "dont critisize, just leave"...

Free college should be free because EVERY child, given they work hard, should have acess to a higher education, NOT "doesnt matter how hard you worked or how smart you are, if you cant pay for it, **** you"...

Community College is not all that cheap, i know, im currently putting myself through. Community College educations dont come even CLOSE to competing with a mainstream college degree for that EXACT REASON, theyre not respected. Oh, and scholarships, hundreds, if not THOUSANDS, of kids compete for scholarships, usually mounting nowwhere more than 6 or 7, its theyre like the NBA, lots of qualified people, just not enough room to go around...

[The_Canuck]

There's scholarships and loans?

[my porsche]

Free college should be free because EVERY child, given they work hard, should have acess to a higher education, NOT "doesnt matter how hard you worked or how smart you are, if you cant pay for it, **** you"...

You're right on the first part of that, but extend that theory to what I mentioned earlier about the loans. Work hard to get into a good college, then if you can't afford it, take out a load, and work hard after college to pay it off quick.

[my porsche]

There's scholarships and loans?

Not according to MadMax, no.

[MadMax13]

Sorry, I can't. The ultra-rich are so because they've found a way to either do something no one has done before, or do something better than everyone else. Taking their wealth from them would essentially be punishing them for having ingenuity and work ethic.



College IS available to everyone, so long as you work hard in school and get good grades. If you can't, and/or your parents can't pay for it, no big deal. There are state sponsored schools which offer cheaper tuition, there are scholarships, there are student loans. The thought that people should pay higher taxes so that you can receive free college instead of taking out a student loan and working to pay for your college is utterly ridiculous.


A. Dont be ****ing stupid, thats the EXACT PROBLEM people have with the rich, very few have EARNED it, its been passed down. Parents or grandparents worked hard at a time when pulling yourself up by your bootstraps was possible and now their successes are being inherited by children who havent earned it, not to mention havent worked a REAL job in their LIVES...

B. College isnt available to everyone, for ****s sake student loans are what just about every college student spends half their life trying to pay off. Oh, and you seem to miss the part about EVERYONE paying a little higher taxes, cutting military spending, lobbying, etc.. Im sick of hearing Americans going on and on about how much higher taxes are in Europe for "free" college, theyre not that much higher. They have a national health system and "free" college and their quality of living FAAAR exceeds that of the US, not to mention that recently the average salary of the average person is now HIGHER in England than it is in the US...

[MadMax13]

You're right on the first part of that, but extend that theory to what I mentioned earlier about the loans. Work hard to get into a good college, then if you can't afford it, take out a load, and work hard after college to pay it off quick.

People BUST THEIR ASSES OFF to try and pay off their student loans, mainly because its the loans that drag them down, and spend YEARS, sometimes NEVER, paying off that loan, only keeping up with the interest...

[Rockefella]

A. Dont be ****ing stupid, thats the EXACT PROBLEM people have with the rich, very few have EARNED it, its been passed down. Parents or grandparents worked hard at a time when pulling yourself up by your bootstraps was possible and now their successes are being inherited by children who havent earned it, not to mention havent worked a REAL job in their LIVES...

B. College isnt available to everyone, for ****s sake student loans are what just about every college student spends half their life trying to pay off. Oh, and you seem to miss the part about EVERYONE paying a little higher taxes, cutting military spending, lobbying, etc.. Im sick of hearing Americans going on and on about how much higher taxes are in Europe for "free" college, theyre not that much higher. They have a national health system and "free" college and their quality of living FAAAR exceeds that of the US, not to mention that recently the average salary of the average person is now HIGHER in England than it is in the US...

Calm down with the anarchy and language. That is all, now you guys can continue on in an appropriate manner.

[Fleet 500]

A. Dont be ****ing stupid, thats the EXACT PROBLEM people have with the rich, very few have EARNED it, its been passed down. Parents or grandparents worked hard at a time when pulling yourself up by your bootstraps was possible and now their successes are being inherited by children who havent earned it, not to mention havent worked a REAL job in their LIVES...

No, that is not true. Statistics show that most of the wealthy in the U.S. did not inherit it.

[Fleet 500]

No, that is not true. Statistics show that most of the wealthy in the U.S. did not inherit it.
From 2003 from Forbes:
"Only 82 of the Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans inherited their money. Most rich Americans have not 'won the lottery of life.' They earned the money they have."

[Rockefella]

From 2003 from Forbes:
"Only 82 of the Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans inherited their money. Most rich Americans have not 'won the lottery of life.' They earned the money they have."

Not to create debate here, but more often than not a figure that shows the x wealthiest people in the world would probably be recent
CEO's that have made their money with the technology boom. As a whole, when taking into account wealth over say, 5 million in assets, the inherited figure would probably be a bit higher.

[Fleet 500]

Not to create debate here, but more often than not a figure that shows the x wealthiest people in the world would probably be recent
CEO's that have made their money with the technology boom. As a whole, when taking into account wealth over say, 5 million in assets, the inherited figure would probably be a bit higher.
It does show, though, that not all of the rich inherited their wealth, as some claim.

[Kitdy]

Sorry, I can't. The ultra-rich are so because they've found a way to either do something no one has done before, or do something better than everyone else. Taking their wealth from them would essentially be punishing them for having ingenuity and work ethic.

Tons of people have work ethic. Someone that works at Wal Mart full time making 15k a year is still working hard. Fact of the matter is, even if everyone tires their hardest, and everyone wasn't lazy, there are always gonna be people left at the bottom - the world does not work without people manning those jobs. I am in favour of wealth distribution if it means taking from the rich and making wages fair for the lower class. The poor bastards at the bottom ought to get paid reasonable wages.

[Kitdy]

It does show, though, that not all of the rich inherited their wealth, as some claim.

This may be the case, but I think it would be more interesting to see how may of the wealthiest Americans came from lower class families - probably a massively disproportionally small amount, less so with middle class, and a huge over representation of wealthy people coming form wealth families - it is how the socio-economic situation is. Wealthier kids can afford to go to private schools, or at least in the case where I live, certain rich neighborhoods have superior public schools.

While the wealth may not be directly inherited, the place in society you are gonna be in is probably most likely the one you grew up in.

[Matra et Alpine]

Sorry, I can't. The ultra-rich are so because they've found a way to either do something no one has done before, or do something better than everyone else. Taking their wealth from them would essentially be punishing them for having ingenuity and work ethic.
Let me repeat again :)
Rdistribution is not about "taking their wealth" ... they are and will be still weealthy, just not the huge gap that exists today and not where just being welathy means earning more money.
If you think those people made rich in the industrial age or during the war years are now working "as hard" then I'd like to know who you consider those people to be.


So, if there is no consumer market, what are all of these non-wage earning workers going to do?
Confusing things again and I'm sorry if it seems it supports the view that US political education is very alcking :(
Of course there is still a "consumer market" .... but it is not untethered as it is now for many products.

[roosterjuicer]

I know it makes a lot of people sore when people inherit money (even though most rich people got rich on their own, not through inheritence) but to be honest, there's nothing wrong with it.

If i work hard my whole life and make a decent living for myself and save my money and what not in order to make sure my kids have a better and easier life than I did shouldn't that not be a problem? I mean, when its all said and done isn't that what most people who work hard work for? Isn't that a big motivation to bust your arse off?

I know when i graduate law school one of the first things im going to do is start a trust fund for my future kids so they dont have to worry about paying for college.

[Matra et Alpine]

Love the irony, R ... the most important thing to do with your high salary is to invest in funds to pay for your kids future education ? OK, so lets just say that you did NOT take home as much money as now and that you lived where education - even to degree level - was free. NOW do you see what "redistribution" is about ?
You're not any worse of .... BUT thousands of much poorer kids are better off because there is a single tier high performance educational system :)

Sadly, R, you nor I are likely to be in the billionare status and for most folks ""decent living" is fine and is what all socialist norms strive for. It's the immoral, indecent living that's the issue. Especially if the accumulated billions means that the children can be spoiled brats who never need to work and yet their net wealth STILL manages to grow. Put that money to folks with energy to apply it and the economy strengthens ion leps and bounds.
Australia's entreprenrouship network is superb in that sence and through SVA many programs are funded by million/billionaires donating the sums to foster real programs returngin real value. Many copy them .... shame some govermnetns dont' see the need for balance :)

[roosterjuicer]

Love the irony, R ... the most important thing to do with your high salary is to invest in funds to pay for your kids future education ? OK, so lets just say that you did NOT take home as much money as now and that you lived where education - even to degree level - was free. NOW do you see what "redistribution" is about ?
You're not any worse of .... BUT thousands of much poorer kids are better off because there is a single tier high performance educational system :)


Well that wouldn't help me any because id still have to put away money to put them through graduate school since a lot more people will have bachelors degree's out there the bachelors wont be worth as much thus my kids will have to go to graduate school to get a leg up. :D

[MadMax13]

Tons of people have work ethic. Someone that works at Wal Mart full time making 15k a year is still working hard. Fact of the matter is, even if everyone tires their hardest, and everyone wasn't lazy, there are always gonna be people left at the bottom - the world does not work without people manning those jobs. I am in favour of wealth distribution if it means taking from the rich and making wages fair for the lower class. The poor bastards at the bottom ought to get paid reasonable wages.

Yeah, and Wal-Mart happens to be one of those mega corps that, when the salary at the top is threatened, fire their employees and tell them they can reapply for the bottom job. Yeah, however when i say inherited i dont LITERALLY mean inherited, wealth is things such as lifestyle, most of the wealthiest people today CAME from well off families...

[roosterjuicer]

wealth is things such as lifestyle, most of the wealthiest people today CAME from well off families...

Success breeds success my friend.:D





(sorry, its friday im being a smarta** today)

[Matra et Alpine]

Well that wouldn't help me any because id still have to put away money to put them through graduate school since a lot more people will have bachelors degree's out there the bachelors wont be worth as much thus my kids will have to go to graduate school to get a leg up. :D
Come on R ... think out the box :)

You wouldn't need to pay for post graduate either as it shoudl be provided too.
THe BIG advantage for an economy is that there is a large pool of well educated bright people. The laws of statistics still says that there will be a very small minority capable of Masters or Doctorates ...... but now rather than it being based on how much money you can afford to pay for it, it's down to the ability of the person involved.

Just because the education is free doesn't mean that it is not ability-tested.

[Kitdy]

Just because the education is free doesn't mean that it is not ability-tested.

Indeed. I also would be in favour of free graduate education as well.

[MadMax13]

Success breeds success my friend.:D





(sorry, its friday im being a smarta** today)

No, wealth breeds WEALTH...

[kingofthering]

Here we go with the "dont critisize, just leave"...


Well...there's a difference between normal dissent (nah, that's just a stupid idea. We never should have voted for Bush) and what you have, which is outright hatred (America is EVIL!!! IT OPRESSES MINORITES AND WE MUST (do something crazy) IT TO INSTALL FREE HEalTH CARE.)

You might have not said those exact words, but the spirit was there. ;)

[my porsche]

Confusing things again and I'm sorry if it seems it supports the view that US political education is very alcking :(
Of course there is still a "consumer market" .... but it is not untethered as it is now for many products.
Think about it, if no one makes any money, no one will have the means to buy anything, which in turn means people will stop making things that no one will buy.

[Kitdy]

Think about it, if no one makes any money, no one will have the means to buy anything, which in turn means people will stop making things that no one will buy.

I think the idea is that everybody produces.. what the hell is it.

Ah yes, A Marxian maxim (heh): "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

The idea being you produce what you can, and take what you need.

I am in no way endorsing/opposing this system, I am just trying to explain how it's supposed to work.

[Matra et Alpine]

Think about it, if no one makes any money, no one will have the means to buy anything, which in turn means people will stop making things that no one will buy.
no . no . no ........... :)
You're repeating the boogyman stories of solcialism.
Of course there is money AND production AND consumption.

[MadMax13]

Well...there's a difference between normal dissent (nah, that's just a stupid idea. We never should have voted for Bush) and what you have, which is outright hatred (America is EVIL!!! IT OPRESSES MINORITES AND WE MUST (do something crazy) IT TO INSTALL FREE HEalTH CARE.)

You might have not said those exact words, but the spirit was there. ;)

I dont think America is evil, just arrogant and thick as shit. In order to change the problems you have to ADMIT the problems exist...

[aNOBLEman]

Except then there is no incentive whatsoever to do work. People are lazy by nature, so if they don't see any return for their work, will they even bother? No. If no one makes any money, then the entire consumer market ceases to exist, because there is no one to buy the products. So, if there is no consumer market, what are all of these non-wage earning workers going to do?

I'd just like to point out that money is not the ONLY incentive for working. The main reason I want to become a pharmacist is so that I can help people heal from sickness, injury, etc.

[Kitdy]

no . no . no ........... :)
You're repeating the boogyman stories of solcialism.
Of course there is money AND production AND consumption.

There certainly is! Just less of a gap between wealthy and poor.


I'd just like to point out that money is not the ONLY incentive for working. The main reason I want to become a pharmacist is so that I can help people heal from sickness, injury, etc.

Respect - that's what I like to see. People working in a job that they love.

[MadMax13]

Respect - that's what I like to see. People working in a job that they love.

Yeah, and most like the job because it pays well. I have yet to hear ANYONE thats a doctor, nurce, etc. that has genuinely said "because i want to help people" and not added "and it pays well" at the end. Most kids these days want to become doctors and lawyers and such say they want to do so because it pays well, NOT simply to help others...

[Kitdy]

Yeah, and most like the job because it pays well. I have yet to hear ANYONE thats a doctor, nurce, etc. that has genuinely said "because i want to help people" and not added "and it pays well" at the end. Most kids these days want to become doctors and lawyers and such say they want to do so because it pays well, NOT simply to help others...

Nurses don't get paid well here in Canada - the ones I know love their jobs.

Doctors - that's a different story.

[Matra et Alpine]

It does show, though, that not all of the rich inherited their wealth, as some claim.
Who claimed that ?
Show us where and when ......

( hint to save you time .... nobody DID :D )

[aNOBLEman]

Yeah, and most like the job because it pays well. I have yet to hear ANYONE thats a doctor, nurce, etc. that has genuinely said "because i want to help people" and not added "and it pays well" at the end. Most kids these days want to become doctors and lawyers and such say they want to do so because it pays well, NOT simply to help others...

Sure it pays well, but I genuinely want to help people and the money is just an extra bonus. My ultimate goal is to eventually go back to school to become a dermatologist so that I can research a cure for Ichthyosis, a skin disease, which both my brother and sister have.

[Fleet 500]

Who claimed that ?
Show us where and when ......

( hint to save you time .... nobody DID :D )
See post #58.
MadMax13 made the claim. To quote: "Very few people have earned it. It has been handed down."

Not true. :D

[Kitdy]

See post #58.
MadMax13 made the claim. To quote: "Very few people have earned it. It has been handed down."

Not true. :D

However, if you read carefully, you'll see that you claimed that someone said all the rich inherited their money - nobody actually did say this. MadMax said a majority did.

[Fleet 500]

However, if you read carefully, you'll see that you claimed that someone said all the rich inherited their money - nobody actually did say this. MadMax said a majority did.
But that is not true. Only 82 of the Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans inherited their money.

[Kitdy]

But that is not true. Only 82 of the Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans inherited their money.

That is a logical error for several reasons.

We have not defined who the rich are in solid terms - if you consider the rich only the Forbes 400 then yes, it is true - but I think you have to consider the wider pictures. I would predict that most people make their fortune of their own work, not their parents.

This does not mean that the wealth of the parents used to send them to good private schools, pay for undergraduate and possibly graduate education is not helpful.

[Fleet 500]

That is a logical error for several reasons.

It is not an error; it is a fact. :D


We have not defined who the rich are in solid terms - if you consider the rich only the Forbes 400 then yes, it is true - but I think you have to consider the wider pictures. I would predict that most people make their fortune of their own work, not their parents.

This does not mean that the wealth of the parents used to send them to good private schools, pay for undergraduate and possibly graduate education is not helpful.

I agree with what I outlined in bold. I don't know if there have been any studies or data showing how many students are paid for by their parents. But, many of the students who are helped do not have parents who are considered wealthy, but more like middle class.

[MadMax13]

Sure it pays well, but I genuinely want to help people and the money is just an extra bonus. My ultimate goal is to eventually go back to school to become a dermatologist so that I can research a cure for Ichthyosis, a skin disease, which both my brother and sister have.

Would you do the same job even if it onlay payed $40k a year???...

[MadMax13]

I'd just like to point out that money is not the ONLY incentive for working. The main reason I want to become a pharmacist is so that I can help people heal from sickness, injury, etc.

Oh, and pharmacists dont help heal people, unless you mean the ones that actually "CREATE" the drugs, even then i i dont respect them much. The Pharmacist used to be exactly that, a healer, now theyre just the ones the combine two drugs so they can sell the one new one for a higher profit, their like "The Pusher Man", they flog you shit you dont actually need, like doctors...

[MadMax13]

That is a logical error for several reasons.

We have not defined who the rich are in solid terms - if you consider the rich only the Forbes 400 then yes, it is true - but I think you have to consider the wider pictures. I would predict that most people make their fortune of their own work, not their parents.

This does not mean that the wealth of the parents used to send them to good private schools, pay for undergraduate and possibly graduate education is not helpful.

When i say rich i mean the tip top guys, their wealth has been passed down, they come from 2 or 3 or 4 generations of wealthy landowners, businessmen, etc....

[roosterjuicer]

When i say rich i mean the tip top guys, their wealth has been passed down, they come from 2 or 3 or 4 generations of wealthy landowners, businessmen, etc....

Warren Buffet. Nuff Said.

[MadMax13]

Rooster im pretty sure no ones listening to you anymore, youre in Gods Country, go talk to him...














Unless youre another one that thinks HE talks to YOU...

[Matra et Alpine]

Loved this one ....

In 2002, Liesel Pritzker, then an undergrad at Columbia University, launched a $6 billion lawsuit against her father and 11 older cousins, accusing them of looting her trust funds and those of her brother Matthew. The battle eventually led to the carving up of the family fortune; it was split 11 ways, resulting in 10 more Pritzkers joining the Forbes 400; the most members of any family. Liesel and Matthew are not among the rich-listers, having received a reported $500 million apiece.
Missed that as a point ..... inherited money handed down is inevitably diluted. So a billionaire parent is likely only going to create millionaire siblings :)

[MadMax13]

I think thats saying that the man was that rich that he had enough to give ten children enough to maek the Forbes 400 and the other two, with 500 million each, DIDNT. I think it says that to be in the Forbes 400 you have to be filthy, stinking, distugstingly ****ing rich...

[aNOBLEman]

Would you do the same job even if it onlay payed $40k a year???...

Yes I would. I've already done an internship helping out pharmacists, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and I've already been accepted to Purdue's College of Pharmacy.


Oh, and pharmacists dont help heal people, unless you mean the ones that actually "CREATE" the drugs, even then i i dont respect them much. The Pharmacist used to be exactly that, a healer, now theyre just the ones the combine two drugs so they can sell the one new one for a higher profit, their like "The Pusher Man", they flog you shit you dont actually need, like doctors...

Unless I'm mistaken drugs usually help heal people or at least relieve symptoms of illnesses. They also have to mix and dilute different drugs to get the desired results. Also I am hoping to get into research pharmacy anyway, and I do not really care about your level of respect for pharmacists.

If you think that pharmacists are just "The Pusher Man" try getting your wisdom teeth pulled or getting tonsils taken out without any prescription pain medication and tell me how fun it is.

[MadMax13]

Yes I would. I've already done an internship helping out pharmacists, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and I've already been accepted to Purdue's College of Pharmacy.



Unless I'm mistaken drugs usually help heal people or at least relieve symptoms of illnesses. They also have to mix and dilute different drugs to get the desired results. Also I am hoping to get into research pharmacy anyway, and I do not really care about your level of respect for pharmacists.

If you think that pharmacists are just "The Pusher Man" try getting your wisdom teeth pulled or getting tonsils taken out without any prescription pain medication and tell me how fun it is.

Good then, we need more people in the medical field that dont do it for the big paycheck. What im on about with Pharmacists, doctors, etc. is that nine times out of ten they prescribe you shit you dont need, drugs to "help" with an illness that is usually brought on by something in persons lifestyle. Second, my mums a nurse, shes seen this shit first hand, shit like Pharmacists mixing two drugs together to make one and then marketing it as something new, for three times the price. We dont need mixed drugs for minor shit, we need drugs to combat HIV, cancer, etc....

[MadMax13]

If you think that pharmacists are just "The Pusher Man" try getting your wisdom teeth pulled or getting tonsils taken out without any prescription pain medication and tell me how fun it is.

Oh, and ive had my wisdom teeth pulled, i was knocked out but when i came to they gave me shit that didnt work, so i know what its like to sit through a week of excruciating pain...




















Ive also been stabbed on several different occaisons, just in case the med free wisdom teeth story isnt painful enough...

[The_Canuck]

Why does every other post you make have a missive gap in the middle?

[kingofthering]

Why does every other post you make have a missive gap in the middle?

To show us how hardcore he is compared to the rest of us. In other words, he's trying to be the new Drakkie. :rolleyes:

Hey, Max, I got my ears cut because they were swollen! My mother works at a community college, she sees the shit that goes down. I know this shit too!

Does that make me a hardcore guy just like you? ;)

[aNOBLEman]

Good then, we need more people in the medical field that dont do it for the big paycheck. What im on about with Pharmacists, doctors, etc. is that nine times out of ten they prescribe you shit you dont need, drugs to "help" with an illness that is usually brought on by something in persons lifestyle. Second, my mums a nurse, shes seen this shit first hand, shit like Pharmacists mixing two drugs together to make one and then marketing it as something new, for three times the price. We dont need mixed drugs for minor shit, we need drugs to combat HIV, cancer, etc....

Well I can assure you that I WILL NOT be one of those pharmacists that tries to con people out of even more money than they already have to pay. :)


Ive also been stabbed on several different occaisons, just in case the med free wisdom teeth story isnt painful enough...

Stabbed!? Why did you get stabbed?

[Rockefella]

MadMax is the kind of guy who hates those above him.

[roosterjuicer]

Rooster im pretty sure no ones listening to you anymore, youre in Gods Country, go talk to him...
.


People used to listen to me?! :eek:


In all seriousness however, Warren Buffet lives about 40 minutes from me (also in gods country)
And look it up, he came from very humble beginnings.

[my porsche]

Of course there is money AND production AND consumption.
If everyone gets paid $0 for their work...how is there still money, production and consumption? Do you mean to say that people will produce goods and give them away?

I feel like I'm missing something here...

[my porsche]

People used to listen to me?! :eek:


In all seriousness however, Warren Buffet lives about 40 minutes from me (also in gods country)
And look it up, he came from very humble beginnings.

God's Country = Washington?

Last I saw he lived on Peugot Sound, about 5 minutes from my grandma...?

[MadMax13]

Well I can assure you that I WILL NOT be one of those pharmacists that tries to con people out of even more money than they already have to pay. :)



Stabbed!? Why did you get stabbed?

Thats fab, youre one of the good ones. And i was stabbed on two different occaisions, that i remember, one was with a pencil, in a grade school fight, and the other was with a knife, again in a fight. The pencil COULD have been bad if it had went in full length, it only went in about 35-40%, the knife was through my hand, knicked the bone of my index finger but not too bad...

[MadMax13]

MadMax is the kind of guy who hates those above him.

What is it with Americans that they all seem to think they can figure you out simply by reading your posts on a website that dabbles in nothing more than hobby and recreation, spotted with lack luster threads about serious issues in which none seem to know ANYTHING about???...

[Rockefella]

What is it with Americans that they all seem to think they can figure you out simply by reading your posts on a website that dabbles in nothing more than hobby and recreation, spotted with lack luster threads about serious issues in which none seem to know ANYTHING about???...

Because I feel threatened by tough guys like you.

[henk4]

If everyone gets paid $0 for their work...how is there still money, production and consumption? Do you mean to say that people will produce goods and give them away?

I feel like I'm missing something here...

There used to be the barter trade......there were days when there was no money....

[MadMax13]

There used to be the barter trade......there were days when there was no money....

Even if there was no money people would find something to barter with, what are now common household goods were once currency. I saw do it like the natives, barter with pics like the Kombai or Mek in Papua New Guinea or Heroin like the Afghans, theres thousands of things that could be used as currency. Also if items were currency a persons wealth really would depend on how much they work...

[Matra et Alpine]

If everyone gets paid $0 for their work...how is there still money, production and consumption? Do you mean to say that people will produce goods and give them away?

I feel like I'm missing something here...
It's not a problem, the environment you live in will always hide the truth :)

There IS money in socialism ... and communism.It's theoretical systems that work on no money, but as already said, many of these are effectively bartering.

But excessive ownership of money is "dissuaded" either through tax or limits or just sensibel management -- eg German labour councils on company boards.

[roosterjuicer]

God's Country = Washington?

Last I saw he lived on Peugot Sound, about 5 minutes from my grandma...?

He was born and raised right here in Nebraska and has lived here most of his life. he lives in a house not too far from where he grew up and lives very modestly...he went to the university of nebraska (just like yours truly) drives a caddillac.

[MadMax13]

Found this link on one of my favorite sites...

AlterNet: Democracy and Elections: When Change Is Not Enough: Seven Steps to Revolution (http://www.alternet.org/democracy/77498/)

If anyones interested in checking the site out its Guerrilla News Network (http://www.GuerrillaNews.com)...

[roosterjuicer]

Found this link on one of my favorite sites...

AlterNet: Democracy and Elections: When Change Is Not Enough: Seven Steps to Revolution (http://www.alternet.org/democracy/77498/)

If anyones interested in checking the site out its Guerrilla News Network (http://www.GuerrillaNews.com)...

you have problems my friend.

[MadMax13]

you have problems my friend.

Why, because i posted the link to an article pointing out the seven key problems that drive you masses to revolt???...


















Sorry, ill just tow the line and hope the elite drop a few scraps my way...

[The_Canuck]

Ha ha the guerilla news network, I though that was a joke in grade 7 man, look at any given article and I bet I could point out factual inaccuracies and bias.

[MadMax13]

You sound like my old man, dont read the articles just because the name of the website. The article actually came from AlterNet, the link will take you straight to it, but im sure you wont read it either way...

[kingofthering]

You sound like my old man, dont read the articles just because the name of the website. The article actually came from AlterNet, the link will take you straight to it, but im sure you wont read it either way...

Oh yes. You are right, oh mighty one. We are merely slaves. :rolleyes:

Some of us want another source to draw our conclusions from. This is the liberal equivalent of Fox News.

[MadMax13]

For the love of god come up with a new excuse, that ones as old as the hills...

[henk4]

Some of us want another source to draw our conclusions from. This is the liberal equivalent of Fox News.

Just labeling the "other" poster does not free you from looking at the arguments posted....in other words, have a look at what was said and not base your opinion on whom you think said it.....(it is "liberal" and can therefore be dismissed).

[roosterjuicer]

Originally Posted by MadMax13 View Post
He killed thousands of US backed contras and right wing paramilitaries, those political prisoners were arrested for promoting the overthrow of the government and such like, which you KNOW would get you imprisoned in the US, he didnt rob any wealth from Cuba because after the US embargo and the fall of the Soviet Union there was no one to trade with, so they had very little income to rob.


I decided to reply to this on the castro thread so we dont hijack the world leader thread.

First of all, yes, he did kill some us backed people (but thats not a good thing) however most of the people he has killed and most of his political prisoners were not actually trying to overthrow the government they were just trying to speak freely and/or protest or vote or leave the country or support political opposition do other things that are legal in america. the stuff most of his prisoners/victims did would not be imprisonable offenses in america. Unless you have been brainwashed into thinking bush will imprison you for supporting hillary or barak or ralph nader.

your second statement about him not robing any wealth is just plain wrong. there was plenty of wealth in cuba. My grandmother's family owned 3 chrysler dealerships there and they had their dealships, houses, money, and most of their valuable possessions robbed from them by Castro. Castro also nationalized all the industry there, thus robbing the business owners of the business. Believe it or not, when castro first took over America was trading quite a bit with cuba and castro took all the money away from everyone who had it and turned everyone there into a poor person.:D YAY COMMUNISM RULES!

[MadMax13]

Originally Posted by MadMax13 View Post
He killed thousands of US backed contras and right wing paramilitaries, those political prisoners were arrested for promoting the overthrow of the government and such like, which you KNOW would get you imprisoned in the US, he didnt rob any wealth from Cuba because after the US embargo and the fall of the Soviet Union there was no one to trade with, so they had very little income to rob.


I decided to reply to this on the castro thread so we dont hijack the world leader thread.

First of all, yes, he did kill some us backed people (but thats not a good thing) however most of the people he has killed and most of his political prisoners were not actually trying to overthrow the government they were just trying to speak freely and/or protest or vote or leave the country or support political opposition do other things that are legal in america. the stuff most of his prisoners/victims did would not be imprisonable offenses in america. Unless you have been brainwashed into thinking bush will imprison you for supporting hillary or barak or ralph nader.

your second statement about him not robing any wealth is just plain wrong. there was plenty of wealth in cuba. My grandmother's family owned 3 chrysler dealerships there and they had their dealships, houses, money, and most of their valuable possessions robbed from them by Castro. Castro also nationalized all the industry there, thus robbing the business owners of the business. Believe it or not, when castro first took over America was trading quite a bit with cuba and castro took all the money away from everyone who had it and turned everyone there into a poor person.:D YAY COMMUNISM RULES!

Then please tell me why im repeatedly seeing Cubans openly prostesting Castro in the streets, and no, i dont think Bush will imprison me for being pro Hillary but people have been imprisoned for simply speaking out against his government, hell Colorado had been one of the worst for this. The wealth in Cuba was the rich upper class and Americans, the rich upper class, and even the middle class, fled Cuba for the US, taking much of their wealth with them. I know the US traded significantly with Cuba, however everyone isnt poor in Cuba, even now, the lowest class is simply higher, like in England...

[roosterjuicer]

your right, the upper and middle class in cuba did flee, but most of them didn't get to take much wealth with them.

plus even if you were right, the people who left cuba wouldn't have left if castro had never taken over. ipso facto, even in your dream world casto is still responsible for the lack of wealth.

as to your last sentance, you are wrong. most people are poor in cuba, and while the lowest class in cuba might be slightly better off than people living under bridges and eating out of trashcans in America, making everyone else suffer so that there arent homeless people is not the right way to do things.

[Matra et Alpine]

Another historical perspective ....
from History of the Cuban Revolution (http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk/ratb/cuba/cuba_rev.htm)

"Cuba became an economic colony of the USA, with US troops returning to suppress revolts. By 1920, US investors owned two thirds of the arable land. The Mafia moved into Havana's gambling and tourist business in the 1930s. After the Second World War, Cuba became a transshipment stage for 'French Connection' heroin into the USA, and a degenerate playground, brothel and casino for US imperialism. "

history goes farther back than the Bay of Pigs you know !!

[MadMax13]

your right, the upper and middle class in cuba did flee, but most of them didn't get to take much wealth with them.

plus even if you were right, the people who left cuba wouldn't have left if castro had never taken over. ipso facto, even in your dream world casto is still responsible for the lack of wealth.

as to your last sentance, you are wrong. most people are poor in cuba, and while the lowest class in cuba might be slightly better off than people living under bridges and eating out of trashcans in America, making everyone else suffer so that there arent homeless people is not the right way to do things.

Yeah, they wouldnt have left if the revolution hadnt of succeeded, but the masses that were neglected and oppressed under Batista would have remained so if the country had remained under the US backed Batista regime. The majority of Cuba is now educated and has some opportunity instead of education and opportunity being available to those who could afford it. The fact is the indigenous Cubans, like every other indigenous population, were treated as subhuman by the much smaller Spanish mixed Cubans. Im sorry your one of those Spanish mixed Cubans that lived conmfortably in Havana but the majority were suffocating and someone took action, for the better of the majority...

[kingofthering]

Just labeling the "other" poster does not free you from looking at the arguments posted....in other words, have a look at what was said and not base your opinion on whom you think said it.....(it is "liberal" and can therefore be dismissed).
No,no,no, Henk, I was referring to the 2nd link. I read it. Most of it is just oh-help-me stuff.



The fact is the indigenous Cubans, like every other indigenous population, were treated as subhuman by the much smaller Spanish mixed Cubans. Im sorry your one of those Spanish mixed Cubans that lived conmfortably in Havana but the majority were suffocating and someone took action, for the better of the majority...
It's funny how doing things for "the greater good" always leads to interesting outcomes. ;)

[roosterjuicer]

Im sorry your one of those Spanish mixed Cubans that lived conmfortably in Havana.

Im not.

I dont believe its neccessary to speak negatively about someone's race on this message board. while we do have plenty of heated discussion here one thing i like about this board is that nobody here seems to be much of a racist. i think we should try to keep it that way.

Additionally, my granpa's side of the family lived in the country and farmed tobacco. ive been to the place he grew up, and i can tell you it wasn't that comfortable.

[MadMax13]

Im not speaking negatively of ANYONES race, what i said is FACT, its the way in Africa now, the lighter skinned black population is higher up the chain than the darker skinned ones, its not right, plain and simple. My question is why does the mixed race population ALWAYS treat the indigenous, usually faaar darker, population like shit???...

[roosterjuicer]

Im not speaking negatively of ANYONES race, what i said is FACT, its the way in Africa now, the lighter skinned black population is higher up the chain than the darker skinned ones, its not right, plain and simple. My question is why does the mixed race population ALWAYS treat the indigenous, usually faaar darker, population like shit???...

do you think the dark skinned group would treat the light skinned one any different if the tables were turned?

[MadMax13]

Perphaps, i know when the early settlers came to what is now the US the "Indians", who outnumbered them ten fold, didnt slaughter them like the white settlers did the moment they gained their trust. Not EVERY indigenous population is a group of primitive savages...

[roosterjuicer]

indeed if the situation in rawanda has taught us anything its that when the darker skinned people take over, everything because like a perfect utopia...

seriously though, get a grip man, when people get in power, no matter what shade their skin is, oftentimes someone else who looks different gets screwed.

[MadMax13]

Not always, yet another TYPICAL American statement of "its gonna go apeshit anyways, so why bother???". Sometimes you change things because ANYTHING is better than the present...