Engines 101 for Slick [Archive] - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

Matra et Alpine

05-01-2004, 03:44 PM

We have Lotus here, the Esprit has a V8 that is physically larger than the LS1 and Ford 4.6.
You prove my point again.

The later Esprit were developed for the US market.
So big engines went in which made it heavier so the engines had to be bigger still.

It's a pointless game.

Check out an Elise or Exige when they get state-side.

Renault Spider

Matra M25 ( unfortunately never saw production for political reasons ) but was THE fastest accelerating car in the world on street tyres and normal fuel.
1600cc engine :)

MG uses Ford engines
No, MG use the Rover K-series engine. NEVER has used Ford. long long time ago used BMC engines.

Caterhams are more like motor cycles than cars
Caterham Superlight are cars, just not in the air-conditioniing battle-tank mould :)
So are Westfields, Donkevoorts, Strikers and dozens of other fast, light sports cars around the world.

Renault, citrogen, peugeot, and fiat dont produce cars that could match the perfomance of a vette or viper, and for that price too.
I'd take a Clio V6 over a 'vette on a twisty road any day.
Focus RS, Alfa 166, Peugeot 206 GTi all are stunning handling and good performance.

I'll give the 'vette the top speed and the straight line acceleration, but a car that long does NOT turn in and "point-and-squirt" as well as lighter competition with less power and loses out on real roads away from highway/motorway/autobahns.

BTW, I have driven a Viper and it is a great car.
But I woulnd't buy one over here.
Likewise, I never wanted an original Mini when I worked in the US :)

Hopfeully, slick, this might expand your interest in cars of a different design criteria to the norm in the USA and you never know you may want one. The Elise will soon be for sale there.

Coventrysucks

05-01-2004, 03:49 PM

No, MG use the Rover K-series engine. NEVER has used Ford. long long time ago used BMC engines.

Apart from the 4.6 Ford V8 in the Rover 75 V8, MG ZT260/385, and SV ;)

Matra et Alpine

05-01-2004, 04:18 PM

Apart from the 4.6 Ford V8 in the Rover 75 V8, MG ZT260/385, and SV ;)
Thanks coventry, I'd forgotten - and I'd taken pics of it at Knockhill too !!!!

Slicks

05-01-2004, 06:25 PM

You prove my point again.

The later Esprit were developed for the US market.
So big engines went in which made it heavier so the engines had to be bigger still.

It's a pointless game.

Renault Spider

Matra M25 ( unfortunately never saw production for political reasons ) but was THE fastest accelerating car in the world on street tyres and normal fuel.
1600cc engine :)

No, MG use the Rover K-series engine. NEVER has used Ford. long long time ago used BMC engines.

Caterham Superlight are cars, just not in the air-conditioniing battle-tank mould :)

I'd take a Clio V6 over a 'vette on a twisty road any day.

I'll give the 'vette the top speed and the straight line acceleration, but a car that long does NOT turn in and "point-and-squirt" as well as lighter competition with less power and loses out on real roads away from highway/motorway/autobahns.

Hopfeully, slick, this might expand your interest in cars of a different design criteria to the norm in the USA and you never know you may want one. The Elise will soon be for sale there.
How fast is this Marta M25?
The X-Power MG uses a Ford V8, and is not sold in america.

The Caterham Superlight is a great car, but like i said its more like a bike than a car. Holding the driver comfortably, with a passanger its a little tight. And hitting anything and you can kiss your life goodbye.

The renault spyder(i assume your talking about the spyder sport) and the Clio V6 both get slower times on the slalom than a Z06, and the Z06 has much higher skid pad #s. And i much rather be driving a 12-13 second car than a 14-16 second car. Id get more thrill out of being thrown back hard from the Z06 or normal vette, than taking a turn 10mph faster.
BTW the elise is and has been on the american market for quite a while, and every now and then i see a few around. I really like them, but would much prefer a vette for the same price. It would get better track times, and like i said i would get more of a thrill of being thrown back from the acceleration. And the vette sounds alot better :D

Matra et Alpine

05-01-2004, 06:42 PM

The Caterham Superlight is a great car, but like i said its more like a bike than a car. Holding the driver comfortably, with a passanger its a little tight. And hitting anything and you can kiss your life goodbye.

With the race cage fitted it's as safe as anything else.

The renault spyder(i assume your talking about the spyder sport) and the Clio V6 both get slower times on the slalom than a Z06, and the Z06 has much higher skid pad #s.
I've had this discussion elsewhre.
Slalom is relativesly easy to get good times with big cars as you can plan the pitch and swing of the car to be in time with the slalom.
REAL roads are nothing like slaloms. You often have to change direction with shoirt notice.
One of the reasons Top Gear use a track and are much preferred for comparison is to emulate the real world and not a spec sheet capability.

And i much rather be driving a 12-13 second car than a 14-16 second car. Id get more thrill out of being thrown back hard from the Z06 or normal vette, than taking a turn 10mph faster.
Point accepted.
But let me ask how often you can enjoy each in the real world ?
The latter wins hands down for me :)

It would get better track times, and like i said i would get more of a thrill of being thrown back from the acceleration. And the vette sounds alot better :D
Really what tracks would you think a Vette would win ?
Something like Laguna I can believe for the lonhish straights.
But few tracks are like that.

Your coments remind me of a conversation with bike friends with a police rider with a Honda Pan-European with a V6 and an R1 rider. The R1 went on and on about the acceleration and the braking. They went out together and the Pan thrashed the R1. Because the Pan was being ridden hard THROUGH the corner so didn't need all that acceleration to try to make good pace.

Likewise, lighter cars can carry more speed through corners - changing corners where suspension has to work. Constant radius test don't actually map to the real world.

Sound is also a perrsonal thing.
I like the sound of a big V, no doubt that throaty burble and roar are nice. But nothing hets me going like a fast and high revving engine using peak power.

Liek this conversation started out way back on another thread.
US market is used to ( and hence likes ) big engines.

Eureop tends to prefer faster revving.

Slicks

05-02-2004, 09:23 AM

but a car that long does NOT turn in and "point-and-squirt" as well as lighter competition with less power and loses out on real roads away from highway/motorway/autobahns.

The vettes wheel base is only about 4.5 inches longer, and its less than 50lbs heavier.

Point accepted.
But let me ask how often you can enjoy each in the real world ?
The latter wins hands down for me :)

If your asking how often i can enjoy acceleration or handling in the real world, accleration would definetly take the cake. I rather do a quick 0-60 than find a nice turn that noone is on and take that fast. I more often on strait roads than twisty ones.

Really what tracks would you think a Vette would win ?
Something like Laguna I can believe for the lonhish straights.
But few tracks are like that.
Yes on a big track the vette has the advantage of top speed, and even on a small twisty track the vette still breaks better, and accelerates faster.

Likewise, lighter cars can carry more speed through corners - changing corners where suspension has to work. Constant radius test don't actually map to the real world.
Agreed but the Z06 is 32lbs heavier, which is unnoticable.

Sound is also a perrsonal thing.
I like the sound of a big V, no doubt that throaty burble and roar are nice. But nothing hets me going like a fast and high revving engine using peak power.
True, but i like the sound of muscular cars mainly because they sound good all the way throught he RPM range. Most high revving cars sound like a weed wacker at idle.

Liek this conversation started out way back on another thread.
US market is used to ( and hence likes ) big engines.
Now that is untrue, just because were used to something doesnt mean we like it. Hell, im used to seeing atleast one ricer a day, but that doesnt mean i like it. I for one dont really like big engines, unless in something like a truck. I like them small and compact, yet powerful, and have plenty of torque. Hence the love for the LS1, and other small, light weight V8s. I dont prefer the smaller displace engines(perfomance based) becasuse most dont have torque, sound terreble, have bad fuel efficientcy compared to the "bigger engines, and are most of the time over weight, and over sized for the amount of power produced.

Matra et Alpine

05-02-2004, 10:26 AM

The vettes wheel base is only about 4.5 inches longer, and its less than 50lbs heavier.
Well that is 15 INCHES longer than an Elise or similar nimble car.
Comparing one US tank with another is about the equivalent of saying that carrots make better fruit than cabbages :)

If your asking how often i can enjoy acceleration or handling in the real world, accleration would definetly take the cake. I rather do a quick 0-60 than find a nice turn that noone is on and take that fast. I more often on strait roads than twisty ones.
That was partly my point explaining the differnece between the typical US car nut and elsewhere, But we ALL enjoy acceleration :)

Yes on a big track the vette has the advantage of top speed, and even on a small twisty track the vette still breaks better, and accelerates faster.
I'll accept the vette beats the Z06, but I was trying to bring another angle on the car choices you compare.
It takes a fully prepped race version of the cars to beat on track performance of run of the mill sports and fast cars. The Saleen race car IS awesome round Knockhill. But it couldn't beat the track time of a Legend :), Caterham, Radical, Exige !!

Agreed but the Z06 is 32lbs heavier, which is unnoticable.
That's 10% of the wait of a real sports car :)
Though by the time BFB like me gets in it's all irrelevant :) [ BFB == Big Fat B*****d ]

True, but i like the sound of muscular cars mainly because they sound good all the way throught he RPM range. Most high revving cars sound like a weed wacker at idle.
Because you are used to hearing big V8s all around. THAT'S MY POINT !!!

Now that is untrue, just because were used to something doesnt mean we like it. Hell, im used to seeing atleast one ricer a day, but that doesnt mean i like it.
duh !! and to that one ricer you see 10 THOUSAND V8s :)
Still don't get the "social influence" do you.
That's a reason we don't like BIG cars much.
They look "wrong", that doens't make them wrong but it IS a socially-influenced opinion.

I for one dont really like big engines, unless in something like a truck. I like them small and compact, yet powerful, and have plenty of torque. Hence the love for the LS1, and other small, light weight V8s.
You've taken this tack before.
For ever lightweight V8 there are many lightweight I4s.
You tried to justify by choosing heavy I4s.
Please try to be objective and compare like with like.

I dont prefer the smaller displace engines(perfomance based) becasuse most dont have torque, sound terreble, have bad fuel efficientcy compared to the "bigger engines, and are most of the time over weight, and over sized for the amount of power produced.
You've stopped reading about small lightweight engines in the 1960s ??
You're list is 99% wrong.
Fuel efficiency is the one I'll partially accept. In an American car a small engine is higher stressed and a bigger V8 will pull better and do better on fuel efficiency. BUT, take a lighter car and the roles are reversed. When has a V8 EVERY got 50-60 mpg ?? Tha's become the accepted high-end of the showroom market. 30-40 is the norm, most folks would baulk at buying a familty saloon which did not get that in the tests.
In terms of power to weight ratio, then accepted that trying to get over 300 bhp from an I4 is MUCH harder than in a V8 and usually means the I4 is heavier than it's lower powered counterparts. BUT, you don't NEED 300bhp if the car weighs half as much. THAT is still the cultural difference I'm failing to get over.

Recapping, I like big V8 muscle cars. They have their place in motorsport and in 'cruising'. Drag strip will belong to top fuel which can only be handled in a big V8 ( the forces would tear an I4 crank out :) ). But blindly claiming superiority because a 'vette is better than a Z06 ( or vice-versa ) is forgetting that they're middle of the pack performance wise on roads and tracks.

Matra et Alpine

05-02-2004, 10:38 AM

Missed your question on the Matra M25 earlier.

IT was a trick input, sorry :)

The M25 was Matra's proposal for a new sportscar for the road recognising that authorities in Europe were clamping down on speeding. So they proposed a car which accelerated. 0-60 in 4 seconds, not bad for a street car in 1987 :) Geared for acceleraiont it's top speed was only 120mph.
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Prototypes/Gallery1/M25/Gallery1/Medium/mf_m25-c.jpg
They built one and it did what they said :)
Shame that Renault had their own ideas at the time of what a sportscar should be. Thankfully the Renault Spider borrowed from the M25 and things turned out for the better :) Except the Spider never quite matched the M25 :(

Coventrysucks

05-02-2004, 10:46 AM

...a 'vette is better than a Z06 ...

A Z06 is a Corvette ;)

I think you are underestimating the potency of the Corvette here.
Most people in the UK have very limited knowledge of the current crop of US Muscle, and from seeing videos of a Z06 around the Nurburgring, it has very capable handling, considering the supposed lumbering size and weight you seem to think it has. :)

Yes, things like a Caterham or a Radical are obviously going to be quicker than a Corvette, but then they are half the weight, and not just of the Corvette, but half the weight of almost everything else on the roads.

I think if an American manufacturer decided to build a rival to the elise, they would be able to make a good job of it. I don't know if they would be able to get the chassis set up as nicely as British engineers seem to, but I think they could make it competative.

However, the market for that type of car is much smaller than the market for the Corvette et al. Being performance cars, capable of carrying two people and their luggage over long distances in comfort, and then going tear-a*seing around a track. :)

American cars are ideally suited to America, and European cars are ideally suited to Europe, trying to compare one against the other is much more Cabbages and Carrots :D

Matra et Alpine

05-02-2004, 11:15 AM

A Z06 is a Corvette
My typo, slicks had been comparing the 'vette with the Esprit.

I think you are underestimating the potency of the Corvette here.
Most people in the UK have very limited knowledge of the current crop of US Muscle, and from seeing videos of a Z06 around the Nurburgring, it has very capable handling, considering the supposed lumbering size and weight you seem to think it has.
The 'ring Z06 was heavily modified for the track !
If you're going to do THAT comparison then you should find the Exige one, it's equally awesome.

I've been on track with Saleens and I've been IN a Viper, I know the performance ( and limitations ) of the 'stock' cars.

Yes, things like a Caterham or a Radical are obviously going to be quicker than a Corvette, but then they are half the weight, and not just of the Corvette, but half the weight of almost everything else on the roads.
This was where I wasn't sure myself if slicks appreciated the difference and that more power with bigger engines means more weight which drives a need for more power which ... ad infinitum. Lateral thinking produces things like the Radical and the Deronda :)

I think if an American manufacturer decided to build a rival to the elise, they would be able to make a good job of it. I don't know if they would be able to get the chassis set up as nicely as British engineers seem to, but I think they could make it competative.
I disagree with you there.
Renault failed to produce and Elise-beater and were using similar technology.
There is a LOT more to geting it right than just the designers, it takes a mindset.
One that's not easy to buy in - just ask M-B in F1 :)

However, the market for that type of car is much smaller than the market for the Corvette et al. Being performance cars, capable of carrying two people and their luggage over long distances in comfort, and then going tear-a*seing around a track. :)
Not sure the point here coventry.
MY A610 does both quite well for a 14 year old design :)
And IT can carry 4 ( as long as the 2 in the back are either kids is have VERY short legs :)
A Subaru or Evo 7 do quite well carrying the kids to school. They're becoming the equivalnet of the US soccer-mom-SUV over here !! :)

American cars are ideally suited to America, and European cars are ideally suited to Europe, trying to compare one against the other is much more Cabbages and Carrots :D
I've traveled to the US regulalry for over 20 years now and I have to point out that their is more recognition of influence of the small cars and European/Japanese designs on the US market than there has been the other way round.
You can't squeeze a quart into a pint pot --- but you can put a pint into a quart can

Was lucky to talk to the Radical rep at Knockhill - they are developing a V8 version for even more performance ... ( for the US market ? :) . Here's the engine - two Hayabusa blocks combined with innovative casing and bottom end....http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/news_folder/v8/v8_3.jpg and details at http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/news_folder/v8/index.php

Fastest lap of the 'ring now belongs to the Radical SR-3, don't know if there are any videos of it. Will ask nex time I meet the guys.
BUT I *WILL* accept that whilst the Rad is a street car it goes no way to being usable as normal transport :)

Anyway, slicks and I are having fun and we'd brought it here from elsewhere to have our own on-topic tirades :)

Slicks

05-02-2004, 11:17 AM

Well that is 15 INCHES longer than an Elise or similar nimble car.
Comparing one US tank with another is about the equivalent of saying that carrots make better fruit than cabbages :)

But were not talking about the elise anymore :p

That was partly my point explaining the differnece between the typical US car nut and elsewhere, But we ALL enjoy acceleration :)
Hey everyone is different, but what are you saying then, the typican european like to corner fast rather than accelerate fast?

That's 10% of the wait of a real sports car :)
Though by the time BFB like me gets in it's all irrelevant :) [ BFB == Big Fat B*****d ]
Do you mean weight?(thats ok im a bad speller too :D )
It depends on what you view as a sports car. Do you think that than every car heavier than 3000lbs is not a sports car? IMO thats rediculous.

Because you are used to hearing big V8s all around. THAT'S MY POINT !!!

duh !! and to that one ricer you see 10 THOUSAND V8s :)
Still don't get the "social influence" do you.
That's a reason we don't like BIG cars much.
They look "wrong", that doens't make them wrong but it IS a socially-influenced opinion.

Thats untrue, i hear as many V8s as i do I4s, and I6/V6. The most common V8s are in trucks(being that they are the most sold cars in the US) That doesnt mean i like them though. And are you saying your socially influenced to like small displaced light cars?

You've taken this tack before.
For ever lightweight V8 there are many lightweight I4s.
You tried to justify by choosing heavy I4s.
Please try to be objective and compare like with like.

I was trying to compare powerfull N/A I4s.

You've stopped reading about small lightweight engines in the 1960s ??
You're list is 99% wrong.
Fuel efficiency is the one I'll partially accept. In an American car a small engine is higher stressed and a bigger V8 will pull better and do better on fuel efficiency. BUT, take a lighter car and the roles are reversed. When has a V8 EVERY got 50-60 mpg ?? Tha's become the accepted high-end of the showroom market. 30-40 is the norm, most folks would baulk at buying a familty saloon which did not get that in the tests.
In terms of power to weight ratio, then accepted that trying to get over 300 bhp from an I4 is MUCH harder than in a V8 and usually means the I4 is heavier than it's lower powered counterparts. BUT, you don't NEED 300bhp if the car weighs half as much. THAT is still the cultural difference I'm failing to get over.
Are V8s make make increadable power for how much they weigh. What performance I4s make 30mpg, and still get a reasonable amount of power. Like i said im talking about perfomance engines, i know I4s are great for fuel economy in family cars. And remember you can only make a car so light, after that its up to making more power. I know there are limits in power for V8s, but there high as hell.

Matra et Alpine

05-02-2004, 12:57 PM

But were not talking about the elise anymore :p
Sorry slicks, I know you used the Esprit as the example of choice. I'd already tried to push that aside as a car updated and made 'bigger' FOR the US market.

Hey everyone is different, but what are you saying then, the typican european like to corner fast rather than accelerate fast?
Pretty much - handling important.
Remember we don't have 20 miles of arrow straight roads ANYWHERE.
Our geography forced roads with many twists and turns - even our motorways :(
But like all things I think we would all like everything !!

Do you mean weight?(thats ok im a bad speller too :D )
It depends on what you view as a sports car. Do you think that than every car heavier than 3000lbs is not a sports car? IMO thats rediculous.
Why ?
That weight means it will struggle to turn and change direction.
MASS is the killer in cornering.
Shock absorbers and springs are stressed, bad :(
Brakes need to be BIG and can suffer bad fade on twisties.
2000 pounds is a heavy car for us.
1000 pounds is a serious track car.

What do you call a sports car ? Surely it's a car designed and built for performance. So why so heavy when it can be engineered lighter.
The US market has a history of car tests which drove the industry to bigger and heavier vehicles to survice the test. In Europe they develoepd deformable crash zones to absorb the impact ( I'm not claiming it is right or perfect as some cars were also designed to pass the test but failed in real world crashes BADLY )

Thats untrue, i hear as many V8s as i do I4s, and I6/V6. The most common V8s are in trucks(being that they are the most sold cars in the US) That doesnt mean i like them though. And are you saying your socially influenced to like small displaced light cars?
I'm maybe seeing them more often when I'm over, certainly every rental I've had has been a V6 or V8.
Social influence occurs all the time. Of course anyone in Europe is "used to seeing" smaller, lighter cars and very small sportscars. Look at Alpine A110s, MGs, Spitfires, Matra Bagheera/Murenas. That's where our surroundings influence us. Americans are used to much larger cars.

I was trying to compare powerfull N/A I4s.
Are V8s make make increadable power for how much they weigh. What performance I4s make 30mpg, and still get a reasonable amount of power.
Clio 182 Sport 0-60 in 7s 140mph 4-seater family hatchback gets 35mpg in the Urban cycle which equated to real world driving. Not sure what it gets steady 55mph motorway, but usually cars are 30-40% higher so could be 50mpg.
90bhp/litre. The Z06 gets 71bhp/litre.
HOWEVER, 150 foot pounds rather than a stonking 400 with the 'vette !
Hence why we rev higher and change gear lots to keep ahead.

But that's not pushing the envelope :)

I've already agreed with you that as power output requirements increase then a V8 will be best. Equally for higher still then V10, 12 and 16 have been built.
BUT for the 300-400hp/ton performance then I'm suggesting that smaller, lighter cars and tuned light engines make a more sensible choice than bigger engines in heavier cars.

Like i said im talking about perfomance engines, i know I4s are great for fuel economy in family cars. And remember you can only make a car so light, after that its up to making more power. I know there are limits in power for V8s, but there high as hell.
Depends what you mean by only so light.
Manufacturers can make cars sub 1000kg ( 2250 pounds ) and still pass all the safety crashes and side impacts etc etc.
So already it could be 50% lighter than a 3000 pound "sportscar".
50% lighter measn 50% less breaking needed and less heat -- less fade.
50% less work on the shocks so less likelihood of 'fade'.
50% less power needed to do the same accelleration.
50% smaller engine - 3 litre V6/8 becomes a 2llitre I4 ?? - Only teasin :)

Now I accept that in the race for more power that bigger IS best ( top fuel dragsters being second only to rockets :) ). But given that they need to be driven on real roads there is a limit. I'd love to find how long a set of tyres last on something liek a Lingenfelter. They're SO wide and large footprint that the scrub must be sever on cornering. I know from my Matra that serious scrub wear halves the life of the rears :(

The real advantage that V8s have is balance and that's the real winner as power increases.
I'd love to see a revisit to small V8s.
Radical are playing with a 2litre V8 configuration for their next car.
Then we'd get the great sound that V8 pulses produce *AND* an engine capable of screaming high revs :)
BTW, have you heard the 'burble' from the MG Power SV I posted up ? I've never heard such a sweet 'blurp' from an exhaust :)

Slicks

05-02-2004, 01:47 PM

Pretty much - handling important.
Remember we don't have 20 miles of arrow straight roads ANYWHERE.
Our geography forced roads with many twists and turns - even our motorways :(
But like all things I think we would all like everything !!

Wow, i thought you guys had more strait aways than that. I have miles and miles of strait highway where a car could easily get to 170mph.

Why ?
That weight means it will struggle to turn and change direction.
MASS is the killer in cornering.
Shock absorbers and springs are stressed, bad :(
Brakes need to be BIG and can suffer bad fade on twisties.
2000 pounds is a heavy car for us.
1000 pounds is a serious track car.

I know, and totally agree, but car companies make cars to sell them, so not every company can make a profit off small, super weight weight cars. There are alot of cars that you would consider heavy that handle like no other, youd be surprised.(great example would be Corvette Z06)

What do you call a sports car ? Surely it's a car designed and built for performance. So why so heavy when it can be engineered lighter.
The US market has a history of car tests which drove the industry to bigger and heavier vehicles to survice the test. In Europe they develoepd deformable crash zones to absorb the impact ( I'm not claiming it is right or perfect as some cars were also designed to pass the test but failed in real world crashes BADLY )
My personal definition of a sports car is RWD or AWD, 2 seats, and IRS. You wouldnt call a Ferrari Enzo a sports car, its heavier than a Z06. What about the McLearen F1, thats 2600lbs, the Porche carrera GT is 3000lbs, BMW M3 CLS is 3000lbs, that just a few off the top of my head. You wouldnt call those sports car because there to "heavy"?

Clio 182 Sport 0-60 in 7s 140mph 4-seater family hatchback gets 35mpg in the Urban cycle which equated to real world driving. Not sure what it gets steady 55mph motorway, but usually cars are 30-40% higher so could be 50mpg.
90bhp/litre. The Z06 gets 71bhp/litre.
HOWEVER, 150 foot pounds rather than a stonking 400 with the 'vette !
Hence why we rev higher and change gear lots to keep ahead.

To me 0-60 in 7 seconds is a complete joke for a sports car. Most of our family cars do that, hell my moms van does that(yes i timed it :D ) I thought you would be knowledgable enough not to bring up hp/l, thats what ricers say. HP/L on street cars effects perfomance in now way what so ever.

Depends what you mean by only so light.
Manufacturers can make cars sub 1000kg ( 2250 pounds ) and still pass all the safety crashes and side impacts etc etc.
So already it could be 50% lighter than a 3000 pound "sportscar".
50% lighter measn 50% less breaking needed and less heat -- less fade.
50% less work on the shocks so less likelihood of 'fade'.
50% less power needed to do the same accelleration.

What im saying is as long as there is mass to the car, than there wil lbe weight. We can always find more ways to make more power.

Now I accept that in the race for more power that bigger IS best ( top fuel dragsters being second only to rockets :) ). But given that they need to be driven on real roads there is a limit. I'd love to find how long a set of tyres last on something liek a Lingenfelter. They're SO wide and large footprint that the scrub must be sever on cornering. I know from my Matra that serious scrub wear halves the life of the rears :(

To give you an idea, i know that the 4 second top fuel dragsters go through a new set of tires about every 4 runs if i remeber right. The tires are not that wide, the street ones are the same size as stock, and the drag street ones anrt that much bigger. But the wider the tire the more the grip. heres a cool video of the 427 running the quarter here (http://www.lingenfelter.com/lpe%20-%208%20sec%20Vette.mov)

The real advantage that V8s have is balance and that's the real winner as power increases.
I'd love to see a revisit to small V8s.
Radical are playing with a 2litre V8 configuration for their next car.
Then we'd get the great sound that V8 pulses produce *AND* an engine capable of screaming high revs :)
BTW, have you heard the 'burble' from the MG Power SV I posted up ? I've never heard such a sweet 'blurp' from an exhaust :)
Never saw that clip, ill look for it.

Matra et Alpine

05-02-2004, 03:14 PM

Wow, i thought you guys had more strait aways than that. I have miles and miles of strait highway where a car could easily get to 170mph.
Well I got to within 5 of that a few years back at 4am on a deserted stretch and what used to be a gentle curve became a corner and the back end was getting twitchy. Many years back I drove SF to LA and one stretch of freeway seemed to be a direct line from the horizon behind to the horizon in front. Damned if I can remeber the road id :(

My personal definition of a sports car is RWD or AWD, 2 seats, and IRS. You wouldnt call a Ferrari Enzo a sports car, its heavier than a Z06. What about the McLaren F1, thats 2600lbs, the Porche carrera GT is 3000lbs, BMW M3 CLS is 3000lbs, that just a few off the top of my head. You wouldnt call those sports car because there to "heavy"?
Pretty much.
I'm old enough to remember that GT once stood for Grand Tourer.
BEFORE it was a monicker tacked onto a model in everyones car range it stood for fast cars with comfort. I'd rank all you've listed as true GTs - only the Porsche having the hereditery to stick with the naming.
Even the Noble is labelled a GT car and it ways 2200 pounds.
Now these are all great "sports cars" but are not the pinnacle.

To me 0-60 in 7 seconds is a complete joke for a sports car. Most of our family cars do that, hell my moms van does that(yes i timed it :D )
So that will be a V-what engine then ?
Though what about gearing for max speed, what is it ? - the old Matra trick :)
BTW, when you quote 0-60 times how are you doing it ? there is a cultural difference I've found trhough the pages of UCP. Some US mags and companies quote 0-60 times from a rolling start. This is so the journos don't destroy the clutches and transmission. In the UK it is always standing start and it is always validated with a 5th wheel or electronic timing. Using speedos is easily out by a second or more.
What I quoted you was from a crochure I had handy ( I'm thinking about a CLio ) and rather than taking the extremem V6 I gave you the fast hot-hatch Clio. FWD with seatiing for 5. Given your definition of sportscar ( RWD ) I guess I should have quoted the Clio V6 - 0-62 in 5.8 ( 62! trust the bloody French :) )

I thought you would be knowledgable enough not to bring up hp/l, thats what ricers say. HP/L on street cars effects perfomance in now way what so ever.
It was used to compare performance LONG before ricers were born !!
It is one way to look at engine efficiency - which is where it was cited.
The best bike engines can achieve 300bhp per litre. ( racing ones tho' street manage about 200/l )
SO, would it be better to put two bike engines in rather than a bigger single engine ?
Damned right and why the Tiger holds the fastest 0-60 STREET car record.
To match efficiency, a 3 litre engine should produce 900bhp. On normal petrol/gas !! A 4.7l Z06 should do 1500 ???? Anything less and it is not as "efficient" as that Honda V5.

What im saying is as long as there is mass to the car, than there wil lbe weight. We can always find more ways to make more power.
but it's cheaper, easier and more cost-effective to lose mass.
Obviously there is a happy medium in the middle where performance v cost benifits are best. We just have a disagreement in viewpoiont as to where that should be :)

To give you an idea, i know that the 4 second top fuel dragsters go through a new set of tires about every 4 runs if i remeber right. The tires are not that wide, the street ones are the same size as stock, and the drag street ones anrt that much bigger. But the wider the tire the more the grip. heres a cool video of the 427 running the quarter
I'd seen the Lingenfelter, I'd already posted an article on it here at UCP.
An awesome upgrade. But should we compare a Lingenfelter with a street car. There is more money spent there than in a WRC rally car. Now one of those shows what a 2l engine can do :) Just lets not talk fuel consumption !!

BUT, it was the cornering scrub on the tyre I was raising.
With a wider tyre then as you corner part of that tread must scrub on the tarmac. The inner and outer of a wide tyre cannot travel the same distance AND go rond a corner. So you get scrub wear. The insides of my Matra rears disappear VERY quickly because of this and the specific geometry of the suspension. With VERY wide tyres as fited to these cars it must be severe and MUST affect handling too - wide tyres don't want to turn. Hence the question as to how long they actually last being driven on the roads and not just on strips.

Slicks

05-03-2004, 07:41 AM

So that will be a V-what engine then ?
Though what about gearing for max speed, what is it ? - the old Matra trick :)
BTW, when you quote 0-60 times how are you doing it ? there is a cultural difference I've found trhough the pages of UCP. Some US mags and companies quote 0-60 times from a rolling start. This is so the journos don't destroy the clutches and transmission. In the UK it is always standing start and it is always validated with a 5th wheel or electronic timing. Using speedos is easily out by a second or more.
What I quoted you was from a crochure I had handy ( I'm thinking about a CLio ) and rather than taking the extremem V6 I gave you the fast hot-hatch Clio. FWD with seatiing for 5. Given your definition of sportscar ( RWD ) I guess I should have quoted the Clio V6 - 0-62 in 5.8 ( 62! trust the bloody French :) )
Its a V6, and FWD. What about gearing for max speed? Its a friggen van, i dont know. My 0-60 times are from a standstill.

It was used to compare performance LONG before ricers were born !!
It is one way to look at engine efficiency - which is where it was cited.
The best bike engines can achieve 300bhp per litre. ( racing ones tho' street manage about 200/l )
SO, would it be better to put two bike engines in rather than a bigger single engine ?
Damned right and why the Tiger holds the fastest 0-60 STREET car record.
To match efficiency, a 3 litre engine should produce 900bhp. On normal petrol/gas !! A 4.7l Z06 should do 1500 ???? Anything less and it is not as "efficient" as that Honda V5.

Yes, i know it has been used for many years, even in the muscle car era. But it effects the perfomance of street cars in no way. If it were a race, and displacement was limited, than it would have effect. The Z06 is 5.7, not 4.7, and is more efficient than any other engine in its class. The honda V5 is a racing bike engine is it not? You cannot compare bike engines to car engines, its a different idea all together.

but it's cheaper, easier and more cost-effective to lose mass.
Obviously there is a happy medium in the middle where performance v cost benifits are best. We just have a disagreement in viewpoiont as to where that should be :)

True, but loosing mass may resault in loosing costomers. By loosing mass, you could be getting rid of things that help the cars sell, like speakers, radio, a/c, etc etc.

BUT, it was the cornering scrub on the tyre I was raising.
With a wider tyre then as you corner part of that tread must scrub on the tarmac. The inner and outer of a wide tyre cannot travel the same distance AND go rond a corner. So you get scrub wear. The insides of my Matra rears disappear VERY quickly because of this and the specific geometry of the suspension. With VERY wide tyres as fited to these cars it must be severe and MUST affect handling too - wide tyres don't want to turn. Hence the question as to how long they actually last being driven on the roads and not just on strips.
I see what your saying. If the LPE427TT would actually want to race on a course, it would loose the slicks and get some street tires.

Matra et Alpine

05-03-2004, 08:53 AM

The Z06 is 5.7, not 4.7, and is more efficient than any other engine in its class.
I love those kinda quotes :)

My A610 is the fastest accelerating , hughest road speed and damn best looking car in ITS class - that being French cars built in 1992 and garaged in Broxburn ).
"Its class" always needs describing.

The honda V5 is a racing bike engine is it not? You cannot compare bike engines to car engines, its a different idea all together.
I'd have let this slip as race engines shouldn't really be compared to road.
BUT, you suggest bike and car engines are different idea all together.
WRONG.
They share the same purpose which is to provide motive power in the most efficient way possible.
Bikes have historically gone the higher peak power efficiency route to the detriment of torque and relied on gears to make no difference at the wheel. ( H-Ds aside but they've not been motorbikes for at least 20 years )
It's bike engine technology which is driving forward the car engine designers today.
Exotic materials and complex firing patterns have been used in bikes to get power for over 50 years ! Only now are cars trying it in the latest gen V6 and V10s where materials, firing order and timing are revisited.
Pre-engaged cogs and sequential gear changes - been like that in bikes for 80 years to give fast gear changes with minimal loss of drive.
But we digress.
The big difference I think you perceive is the high revving versus high torque of a big car and the concept of LOTS of gears versus 4 or 5 :)

True, but loosing mass may resault in loosing costomers. By loosing mass, you could be getting rid of things that help the cars sell, like speakers, radio, a/c, etc etc.
These can all be included with minial weight as well.
BUT THAT is not a driver in a world of bigger engines are easier and fuel economy isn't that important. ( I justify THAT with the vision of cars with 70-80mpg which ARE possible NOW )

I see what your saying. If the LPE427TT would actually want to race on a course, it would loose the slicks and get some street tires.
For sure, but just like ricers go on about a Skyline with 1200hp and how great THAT is I find it crazy that the Lingenfelter gets quoted as performance when it's a special AND was NOT on street tires and somehow that is relevant to the base car in the showroom :)
Wonder what it's performance would be then ?

Mind you some people buy cars because of F1 success :)

Slicks

05-03-2004, 01:32 PM

I love those kinda quotes :)
My A610 is the fastest accelerating , hughest road speed and damn best looking car in ITS class - that being French cars built in 1992 and garaged in Broxburn ).
"Its class" always needs describing.

Its class being in its price range, being a sports car/perfomance car, and getting similar track times. The 911Turbo, NSX, and Viper are in its class just to name a few, and the LS1(corvettes engine)is lighter, more compact, and gets better gas milage than all in its class.

BUT, you suggest bike and car engines are different idea all together.
WRONG.
They share the same purpose which is to provide motive power in the most efficient way possible.
Bikes have historically gone the higher peak power efficiency route to the detriment of torque and relied on gears to make no difference at the wheel. ( H-Ds aside but they've not been motorbikes for at least 20 years )
It's bike engine technology which is driving forward the car engine designers today.
Exotic materials and complex firing patterns have been used in bikes to get power for over 50 years ! Only now are cars trying it in the latest gen V6 and V10s where materials, firing order and timing are revisited.
Pre-engaged cogs and sequential gear changes - been like that in bikes for 80 years to give fast gear changes with minimal loss of drive.
But we digress.
The big difference I think you perceive is the high revving versus high torque of a big car and the concept of LOTS of gears versus 4 or 5 :)

There different in being that you cant drop a large ass V12 in it and have balanced perfomance. And like you said, bikes have alot more HP/L than cars, being that they have such small displaced engines to work with. So simply they make them hi-revving and get more power out of them.

These can all be included with minial weight as well.
BUT THAT is not a driver in a world of bigger engines are easier and fuel economy isn't that important. ( I justify THAT with the vision of cars with 70-80mpg which ARE possible NOW )

Gas milage is important, especially over here where they over price it like crazy. Over here it greatly helps sell cars. And the cars getting 70-80mpg, are the fuel-cell or electric engined cars(also once again not perfomance engines), with laughable acceleration times like 0-60 in 12+ seconds.

For sure, but just like ricers go on about a Skyline with 1200hp and how great THAT is I find it crazy that the Lingenfelter gets quoted as performance when it's a special AND was NOT on street tires and somehow that is relevant to the base car in the showroom :)
Wonder what it's performance would be then ?

Im not really sure what your saying, but the "1200hp" skyline, would have less than 800ft-lbs of torque(torque is what moves your car) and it would be running on racing fuel, and well over 20psi of boost. The Lingnefelter did run on street legal tires, i told you everything about that car is street legal, thats what makes it so great(also not modified to its fullest being that it used alot of stock parts. When you say base car i assume you mean the base Corvette. Well its the best bang for your buck in the US, and only starting at $42,000, its a very affordable sports car.

sandwich

05-03-2004, 02:15 PM

Matra I gotta voice my opinion here and say it sounds like you have an out for Americans.

Calling Harleys not motorbikes? What the hell? I know you're comparing peak HP of a crotch rocket vs. torque of a twin, but what the hell? Harley's have some balls my friend, and I can't fathom why you would simply discount them from the face of the earth.

Maybe that's the difference? In America we like to go out cruising on the open road, whereas in the UK and Europe in general they want to get as much crap into as small a space as possible? I know i'm throwing crap around now too, but I think you fail to view American cars with an open mind.

In addition, I don't know where you lived in America, or when, or anything, but a V8 powered CAR is a rarity here. RARE. As in, I can count the number of V8's I see on the way to work on two hands, not including trucks. If I were counting BMW's and other yuppie mobiles, I would need to be driving a school bus if we were counting on fingers.

I understand where you're coming from, engines don't need to be huge to make good power. Neither do cars themselves. I think you're leaving area out of the equation entirely. In the US, we travel massive distances, sometimes daily. I can drive from one state to another without changing roads. Can you do that in Britain and Scotland? I don't know sh.t about geography, but when you cover vast expanses of lands, would you rather drive a ratty little elise, or a nicely adorned Corvette? Around a track, the elise may hand it to the corvette if the track were tight, but the corvette might give it back when the straights get long...like they do in the US.

Now, could you throw a v8 in and elise and smoke both? I'd say yes, the price penalty wouldn't be that high, and HP/TQ numbers would be off the charts for the weight of the car.

There's more I have to say but it'll have to wait, i get to go home.

Matra et Alpine

05-03-2004, 02:59 PM

Its class being in its price range, being a sports car/perfomance car, and getting similar track times. The 911Turbo, NSX, and Viper are in its class just to name a few, and the LS1(corvettes engine)is lighter, more compact, and gets better gas milage than all in its class.
Not hard to beat the NSX and Viper thay're "old" engines now.
Which 911 you talking about ? The latest is an awesome track car :)

There different in being that you cant drop a large ass V12 in it and have balanced perfomance.
As long as you judge by the ability to drop a big V12 in then you're limiting your choices to VERY expensive Eureopan cars.

Gas milage is important, especially over here where they over price it like crazy. Over here it greatly helps sell cars. And the cars getting 70-80mpg, are the fuel-cell or electric engined cars(also once again not perfomance engines), with laughable acceleration times like 0-60 in 12+ seconds.
Eureopan cars have managed thos mpg with lean-burn, but accept the performance sucks :)
MAN you really touched a nerve with the gas price comment. Nearly 5 quid ( $8 ) for a GALLONG :(

torque is what moves your car
Torque AT THE WHEEL is what moves your car.
You can either stay in a single geaer and have an engine with a large torque curve, or you can use lots of gears and get equal torque force at the wheel. Gearboxes convert speed into torque.
Way back in the 60s Honda produced a race bike for road-racing with 50cc and 12 gears. It beat many of the larger (torquier) bikes on the Isle of Man race.
CVT is the perfect way to convert it, just we haven't the technology to make the belts yet :)
Until then lots of gears have the disadvantage in 0-60 and 0-100 times in that gear changes cause delay. So in those big torque wins out.

The Lingnefelter did run on street legal tires,
if you check the post I'd made on it, the tyres used were 'street legal' but were specials NOT intended for street use. Can't compare apples and oranges if someone paints all the fruit orange :)

When you say base car i assume you mean the base Corvette. Well its the best bang for your buck in the US, and only starting at $42,000, its a very affordable sports car.
Within the constraints of your preference in cars I would concur.
I'm a lightweight nut ( even though the '610 doesn't meet my criteria ).
I've driven and raced some heavy machinery and had fun with a Z28 many years back :)
As a racer ( and rider ) I don't see the skill in going fast in a straight line. There is the need for those skills and more to take on twisties. So I prefer the buzz from that.

Thankfully we all do like different things or the world of cars would be VERY boring :)

In terms of acceleration I still contend nothing beats the kick that a lightweight car with high hp/weight will give in those first few fractions of a second. All comes back to moving mass and you can move less mass quicker :)

Slicks

05-03-2004, 03:27 PM

Not hard to beat the NSX and Viper thay're "old" engines now.
Which 911 you talking about ? The latest is an awesome track car :)

True about the NSX, but the point was that its a smaller displaced engine, and double the price of the Vette. And the new Viper is one hell of a track competitor.

Eureopan cars have managed thos mpg with lean-burn, but accept the performance sucks :)
MAN you really touched a nerve with the gas price comment. Nearly 5 quid ( $8 ) for a GALLONG :(

Are you saying over there you pay $8USD for 1 gallon?? Holly crap thats outragious. Im paying $1.70 for one gallon(unleaded normal).

if you check the post I'd made on it, the tyres used were 'street legal' but were specials NOT intended for street use. Can't compare apples and oranges if someone paints all the fruit orange :)

True, there not tires youd use for comfortable driving, but there still approved to be on the street.

Within the constraints of your preference in cars I would concur.
I'm a lightweight nut ( even though the '610 doesn't meet my criteria ).
I've driven and raced some heavy machinery and had fun with a Z28 many years back :)
As a racer ( and rider ) I don't see the skill in going fast in a straight line. There is the need for those skills and more to take on twisties. So I prefer the buzz from that.

I know it takes more skill to run on a track than in a strait line, and would get more thrill out of being on a track. But I still get thrill out of accleration fast, like 0-60mph in 4 seconds is a rush. There arnt many race tracks around me, and going around turns on a street would be more dangerous than doing a quick 0-60mph run.

Matra et Alpine

05-03-2004, 03:28 PM

Matra I gotta voice my opinion here and say it sounds like you have an out for Americans.
Sorry it sounds like that sandwich and I can see how it could be read that way.

If I've got anything it's a zeal for fast, nimble cars and a propensity to try to get folks to explore the limits they provide rather than blindly believing the "local produce" is the best approach to the problem of going fast :)

Calling Harleys not motorbikes? What the hell? I know you're comparing peak HP of a crotch rocket vs. torque of a twin, but what the hell? Harley's have some balls my friend, and I can't fathom why you would simply discount them from the face of the earth.
The bike is GREAT for freeways. A cruiser is a great way to go a long distance on 2 wheels.
But they don't accelerate, don't steer and you can't get between stationary traffic jams :)

Maybe that's the difference? In America we like to go out cruising on the open road, whereas in the UK and Europe in general they want to get as much crap into as small a space as possible?
Nearly right - you've seen some of the modern houses in the UK :)
We've MUCH older roads which have to follow contours rather than blast a straight line. So we have more twisty roads. So cars and bikes which are nimble do better. We go for drives and rides, not cruises :)
It's not crap, the engineering in a Honda is 2003 technology. H-D is still 1930s. They have there place. Like with cars, the world would be boring if everything was one make and style.

I know i'm throwing crap around now too, but I think you fail to view American cars with an open mind.
I hope through my various posts in many areas I've shown an open mind - I've certainly been open in explainng my experience and exposure to different types.
It's usually the opposite I've seen which groups all small cars into the 'crap' and describes European cars on the basis of exposure to those shipped to the US. The difference I think is in the UK we only get what is marketed as the 'best' of the US and it comes up well short. Check out any Top Gear show - with the exception of JCs waxing on the new Ford GT. Can;t wait ti get a try of one - not likely to happen :(

In addition, I don't know where you lived in America, or when, or anything, but a V8 powered CAR is a rarity here. RARE. As in, I can count the number of V8's I see on the way to work on two hands, not including trucks.
It's easier to say I've NOT been in Alaska :)
Company rentals through Hertz and it's usually a Lincoln or Mercury.
I'm sure they've always been V8s, but maybe V6s. They're certainly not small engines as oodles of torque :)

If I were counting BMW's and other yuppie mobiles, I would need to be driving a school bus if we were counting on fingers.
Yep and BMW are happy for every dollar you've given them for stuff they can't sell in those volumes in Europe :)

In the US, we travel massive distances, sometimes daily. I can drive from one state to another without changing roads.
I've already pointed that out in many posts.
I talked about it as social input to our upbringing. We have historically had small cars as we've small roads and you don't cruise for hours.

Can you do that in Britain and Scotland? I don't know sh.t about geography, but when you cover vast expanses of lands, would you rather drive a ratty little elise, or a nicely adorned Corvette?
Check out last years Gumball with the guy in the Elise ( maybe an Exige ).
THAT was his very comment at the end.
Definately agree.
BUT when we get into talkign about best car and putting down alternatives then most Americans don't see the point of Japanese and European I4s without taking into account they are maybe better over here.
It was that very point that got this thread going under the "what engine in an elise" thread !! No point putting huge engines into a light car , OR comparing 0-60 times when they're not relevant to the driving needs of the real world.

Around a track, the elise may hand it to the corvette if the track were tight, but the corvette might give it back when the straights get long...like they do in the US.
Yep, the Saleen at Knockhill was AWESOME. I've already mentioned in another thread. It was like watching the Mini's and Galxies form the 60s. One tearing up the track on the twisties and the other on the straights. Made for great racing. Nobody went around claiming one was BETTER than the other outright !!

Now, could you throw a v8 in and elise and smoke both? I'd say yes, the price penalty wouldn't be that high, and HP/TQ numbers would be off the charts for the weight of the car.
And it would be uncontrollable.
You would have to increase the wheelbase to make it stable.
That would add more weight AND would make turning less capable.
The reason GroupB cars becaome banned in rallying was that they tried to make nimble HIGH powered cars. They were unstable in a straight line !! I'm sorry I'm starting to sound liek "old fart" saying what it used to be like. But the competion world has gone the route of LOTS of power in lightness and it is counter-productive. Rallies nowadays AVOID the really difficult stages because they are deemed too dangerous for the capabilities of todays cars.

The trick with an Elise would be finding a balanced way to get power up. Maybe it is to go the bike engine route as the Radical has done and taken every record around the world where it appears.
Maybe it's to get a new generation V10.
It certainly isn't to take a BIG engine and over-power all the other features of the car.
Matra did this with the Bagheera U8. Intended to be an "engine upgrade" and ended up a complete redesignd of chassis, suspension and brakes which ultimately made the car unviable to make :(

There's more I have to say but it'll have to wait, i get to go home.
Looking forward to more discourse.
Slicks has already pointed out that my picture of lots of V8s may be biased by my exposure. I'm happy for that to be adjusted, but in my latest response to him I'm still sure the cars I've driven were V8s. But maybe we just hire big cars :)

Matra et Alpine

05-03-2004, 03:41 PM

True about the NSX, but the point was that its a smaller displaced engine, and double the price of the Vette. And the new Viper is one hell of a track competitor.
I don't know why Honda don't stop making that.
It's old technology.
Was a great car in it's day - got chance to drive one in Canada many years back. ( Note to self, find the photos. I'd forgotten that :) )

Are you saying over there you pay $8USD for 1 gallon?? Holly crap thats outragious. Im paying $1.70 for one gallon(unleaded normal).
Yep, bloody ridiculous :(

But I still get thrill out of accleration fast, like 0-60mph in 4 seconds is a rush. There arnt many race tracks around me, and going around turns on a street would be more dangerous than doing a quick 0-60mph run.
Country roads are great in Scotland and on lots you can get a good speed going safely. But the real fun is on the track and I'm spoiled there :0
I agree acceleration is a buzz as a passenger, I'm not so great about it as a driver. It's been explained to me that as a driver we don't experience motion as much, as we are waiting for it based on our inputs. So we push the throttle and wait for the acceleration. A passenger just experiences the push :)
I'm still hoping to let UCP have us post attachments and then can share the acceleration AND cornering of the Radical from a passenger point of view.

sandwich

05-03-2004, 06:15 PM

Slicks

05-03-2004, 06:25 PM

word. I didn't mean to step on toes, it just seems like people have this negative stigma of american cars...like we all drive around in 5680 lb cadillac eldorados with 502 cubic inch engines eating big macs and hitting kitties.
hitting kitties? LOL, yes that sounds like the steriotype to me.

I think I can sum up my sentiments with one phrase:

4-cyllinder engines sound like crap.

Don't care if they're powerful, or pretty, or high tech, they sound like a bunch of honey bees coming to harvest. And that doesn't do it for me. V6, V8, any flat engine (12 PLEASE) 3-rotor or 5 cyllinder (YES) all sound great...but the four-popper....just meh.
True, although ive heard some pretty good sounding 4 bangers, but they are very very rare(and lot from the carborated days). Most are the stupid rice heads with their fart cans.
The other day a dude in a nice 300ZX(i know its a 6 cylinder) came into my subdivision as i was leaving. Without looking at it, it could have passed being a mustang cobra with the exaust note it had. I had to take a double look at it, that was the best sounding japanese car ive ever heard. If i see the guy around ill try and talk to him. :cool:

Matra et Alpine

05-03-2004, 09:49 PM

word. I didn't mean to step on toes, it just seems like people have this negative stigma of american cars...like we all drive around in 5680 lb cadillac eldorados with 502 cubic inch engines eating big macs and hitting kitties.

I think the truth is our cars are bigger because our country is bigger. And public transportation suXX TH4 c0qq here in the us.

I think I can sum up my sentiments with one phrase:

4-cyllinder engines sound like crap.

Don't care if they're powerful, or pretty, or high tech, they sound like a bunch of honey bees coming to harvest. And that doesn't do it for me. V6, V8, any flat engine (12 PLEASE) 3-rotor or 5 cyllinder (YES) all sound great...but the four-popper....just meh.
sorry sandwich but in your fourth sentence you just do EXACTLY what you argue about in your first.
Personally I see a LOT more personal bias against tuned I4 than I do for tuned V8s.
I've been tared with being anti-American, anti-V8 when in reality all I've tried to do is show the benefits of I4s ( and 5s ! ).
I've tried reasoned statement based on decades of competing and tuning a multiplicity of engines and it all comes donw to what seems uneducated comments like "4s sound like crap". Yes they sound DIFFERENT. But do they do the job ?
It's time to pull this to an end.

I feel like the Linux salesman in a world of PCs :)

Matra et Alpine

05-03-2004, 09:54 PM

Most are the stupid rice heads with their fart cans.
ah, now I see.
Japanese pop-off valves and over-huge exhaustrs are more about noise than performance.
I think you're not hearing a real competition I4 :)
We've already touched on the revs thing.
You don't like high revs coz you're not used to them.
EVERY bike racer will enthuse on revs because they ARE used to them.
It's social learned preference.
Like Big Macs versus pasta :)

Some appreciate difference and some prefer same.

The other day a dude in a nice 300ZX(i know its a 6 cylinder) came into my subdivision as i was leaving. Without looking at it, it could have passed being a mustang cobra with the exaust note it had. I had to take a double look at it, that was the best sounding japanese car ive ever heard. If i see the guy around ill try and talk to him. :cool:[/QUOTE]

Notice that the only car you've said you like is becuase it SOUNDED like a Cobra. Not it's performance.

This thread was started because there was a view of putting big engine in an Elise as the source of a better car. For SOUND , fine, do that if you own one and can afford it. But lets not confuse sound with performance PLEASE.

crisis

05-04-2004, 12:14 AM

This thread was started because there was a view of putting big engine in an Elise as the source of a better car. For SOUND , fine, do that if you own one and can afford it. But lets not confuse sound with performance PLEASE.
Seems like someone thinks dropping a V8 in a little car isnt such a bad idea. All that and a good exhaust note too.

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 12:25 AM

Seems like someone thinks dropping a V8 in a little car isnt such a bad idea. All that and a good exhaust note too.
Check out the Westfield Seight.

Been done years ago :)

Great performance and lovely sound.

0-60: 4.3 seconds

Of course into the same chassis they put Engine: GSXR1300R Suzuki Hayabusa 1300cc and get 0-60: 3.48

:)

HOWEVER, it is a relatively old technology Rover V8.
Though I'll also add that the Hayabusa is a stock engine unlike the Radical SR-3.

crisis

05-04-2004, 12:41 AM

Check out the Westfield Seight.

Been done years ago :)

Great performance and lovely sound.

0-60: 4.3 seconds

Of course into the same chassis they put Engine: GSXR1300R Suzuki Hayabusa 1300cc and get 0-60: 3.48

:)

HOWEVER, it is a relatively old technology Rover V8.
Though I'll also add that the Hayabusa is a stock engine unlike the Radical SR-3.
I would imagine the Hayabusa engine would have a somewhat shorter lifespan that the V8. Then again it was a Rover V8 ;) .What sort of economy can you expect from a bike engine like that?

eyebrows

05-04-2004, 01:23 AM

wow i read all that stuff u wrote!!!! ne way r we arguing about inlines and v's? cos there are so many arguments for both sides, like WRX Vs Lancer EVO both about the same cc and both turbo charged but the WRX produces more bhp (i think) if its bigger engines are better than small engines depnds on tuning and design and i'll put a unfair example as well V8 supercar Vs F1 car ooo juese i wonder which would win? if the argument was what engine to put in the elise to improve its performance you couldn't just put LS1 in it to big and heavy compared to the engine in it (not for power to wieght or any thing like that just physical size) if you want more power and the same or a little more wieght it would be a rotary the v5 as marta el alpine suggested or a revtec if its avalable. u guys covered to many topics to write it all down in one post... but sound isn't really something to base whether a car is good or not (i know people that don't like the sound of the F1's).
two more things how bout we compare the pinicales of both american cars vs pinical of european cars? if thats what were arguing about???? and 2. for the person who said bloody french cos they measured the acceleration from 0-62 well thats cos its closer to being 100km/h thats all.

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 01:57 AM

I would imagine the Hayabusa engine would have a somewhat shorter lifespan that the V8. Then again it was a Rover V8 ;) .What sort of economy can you expect from a bike engine like that?
It won't be any less life than a tuned V8.
Granted it won't be as good as a low-revving V8.
BUT again, materials and manufacturing has come a long way since the days when it was ony V8s that got good life. My Espace 2l is now at 180,000 miles and none of that has been easy as it was a farmers for most of that and has towed horses since I got it :)
But with a sports car short-ish longevity is a given. It will be tired and need a rebuild after a few serious trackdays ( or the drivers not been using the power :) ) The life of an engine at peak power is measured in hours !!

Another point the Radical guys make is that you can get a new engine for a fraction of any other alternative - including K-series :)

WHen you look at economy it gets difficult.
What do you mean ? in town, freeway cruising or track days ?
I'll pass on the latter as the figures just scare most folks who've never experienceed track days and besides the wife might read this and realise how much a track day REALLY costs me :)

I've had a club memeber say he gest 20mpg on average since he built one.
I think that included a couple of track days !!
I'd say 20-25 would be about right as whilst they are low consumption in low revs , you don't drive them that way when you own one. So they are a 'naturally' thirsty car because you tend to use the acceleration :)

Here's a Westfield Megabus on track in the US. Engine sound change anyones viewpoint ?? http://dpcars.randomresearch.com/pirwest.mpg
Don't compare with professional vid/audio as it's amateur but still some nice shots.

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 02:00 AM

for the person who said bloody french cos they measured the acceleration from 0-62 well thats cos its closer to being 100km/h thats all.
That was me eyebrows.
I'm having a bad month trying to get bits and tools for engine rebuild on the A610 and the French are not too helpful :)
Blame myself for owning 4 French cars and 3 of those from odd-ball low-volume sports specialists :(
You're right of course, most times are now actually 0-100km/h and we're lazy saying it's the same as 0-60.

sandwich

05-04-2004, 06:24 AM

Don't take my opinion for ignorance. I know the best engine for the Elise is probably the four that it has, maybe with a turbo for more power...but I think a rotary would work well due to it's compactness and penchant for high power in a small package.

And I have heard race engines- I saw the classic auto race at watkins glen, and hearing all the mgb class cars with their 4 bangers hitting the rev limiter, I kind of wish that I hadn't. Nothing sounded worse, not even the two-rotor can-am car. By far the best were the poorly muffled v8's. Then again, the Nissan v8's sounded pretty amazing as well.

I guess I went over the line generalizing- i've wound my friend's CbR F4i up to around 14k RPM and nothing sounds sweeter. Most car engines don't come close to that many revs though, unless it's an F1.

I guess I'm not even sure where this thread came from or where it's going. In my opinion a bigger displacement engine is not a detriment, if there is no weight penalty. If the specs that slicks mentioned are correct, then what is the problem? I agree, there is no sense of a v8 in an elise, but I still think it would be fun...for one or two sets of tires. I understand the benefits of having a smaller engine, but a larger engine can simply be far more driveable under normal, everyday driving conditions (ie, 4 speeds instead of six, broad power band)

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 06:49 AM

but I think a rotary would work well due to it's compactness and penchant for high power in a small package.
I think it got a thumbs up in the original thread for the Elise :)

And I have heard race engines- I saw the classic auto race at watkins glen, and hearing all the mgb class cars with their 4 bangers hitting the rev limiter, I kind of wish that I hadn't. Nothing sounded worse,
MGBs engines were designed in the 1950s to move family cars. The 1800 was NEVER a sports car engine. ( Even though I'm competing in historic rallying with one just now ! ) Compared to a Gordini or Alpine engine the MG was a lumbering tortoise.
The A-series engine was and always has been a nightmare to tune.
Later B-series were only marginally better.
That would be like me comparing a 1950s V8 with a current gen :) - not the same thing.

i've wound my friend's CbR F4i up to around 14k RPM and nothing sounds sweeter. Most car engines don't come close to that many revs though, unless it's an F1
Or a Megabus, Megabird, Radical, Tiger or many others using bike engines ?
Even the little Honda Beat 600cc would rev beautifully.

In my opinion a bigger displacement engine is not a detriment, if there is no weight penalty. [/QOUTE]
Well there always is.
My last word on this is to suggest doing a search on Megabusa and see the many owners who HAVE them and enthuse on their performance, handling and speed. I'd already posted a link to a video clip of a Megabusa on track in the US.
The penchant for lighter, peakier engine performance isn't some quirk that is only mine :)
[QUOTE] but a larger engine can simply be far more driveable under normal, everyday driving conditions (ie, 4 speeds instead of six, broad power band)
Driavabillity is definately better with a big torquey engine.
But GT cars are built for that.
Sportscars shoul be built for "sport" :)
In mentioning gear changes another point to note is that many drivers use gearboxes and are used to them.
Gear change is not anything of a chore and moving up and down a box quickly is a skill and to be enjoyed when it all goes right in and out of corners.
Course it relies on a decent gearchange, something which I only found OK in the Viper when I drove it.
Of course with bike engines you get the immediate advantage of sequential change and clutchless up-shifts so it's nothing to the driving effort :)
So far I've been disappointed with paddle shifts as they are done by computer and pneumatic and can't shift as quick as a rod.
I think with more cars like Radical doing well that we might see a shift back to pre-engaged gearboxes for cars and then it would be equally as quick and easy.

Seriously, a point to raise is comparisons -- 4 gears versus 6 and 12 seconds versus 14.
Frankly you wouldn't notice the difference if the concentration is on driving the road fast rather than measuring what it's doing.
and I think that may be the fundamental difference in the posts.
I drive on track and rally stage FAST, I use the car - whichever one it is - to it's utmost and don't really care about the numbers. So my focus is on car performance doing a job and not doing a measurement. I can go from a 4-gear MGB to a 6 gear bike and I'm not thinking what gear I'm in. I'm listening to the engine note, feeling the scrub, drift and spin and using brake, throttle and gears to execute the fastest route in and out of corners. So far, I've not been or driven a V8 which turned my toes up !
Viper, XK8 in recent years.
Even the Westfield Seight isn't as fast on track as Sylva Fury with a Blackbird engine. FACT. Done it on the same day. Even got the vid somewhere !!
You can overcome weight with power in accelerating, but you can't overcome it easily on corners or braking.

However, what I will say about the Viper that was impressive and slicks talks about is the pull.
Not so much the time, but to go from 2000 revs to 6000 with that thrumm of a big engine is nice.
Other cars I've driven would have taken one if not 2 gear changes which is a "different" sound.

sandwich

05-04-2004, 07:23 AM

I see your points, and there's no doubt those cars would smoke most any car on the track...but they aren't really cars, are they? Sure some may be street legal, but only in fair weather, and only under certain conditions (eg no stop and go, no long highways, perhaps no passengers, and no luggage). Fine cars no doubt, but hardly cars.

My statement of MGB's included the entire class, including midgets and etc. Not limited to MG's, either. It was just similar cars in the class. Even if you listen to rally cars they sound pretty ratty.

In addition, i believe it is Peugot who is now experimenting with a 4 speed gearbox instead of six. Less shifts means throttle earlier and less fooling around with the gearbox, in addition to more reliability. You simply can't do that with a peaky engine, or else you'll be out of the powerband.

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 07:36 AM

My statement of MGB's included the entire class, including midgets and etc. Not limited to MG's, either. It was just similar cars in the class. Even if you listen to rally cars they sound pretty ratty.
I'm fed up pointing out that THAT is a personal preference guided by what we are used to.
Have you ever listened to Japanes music ( traditional ).
It is discorndant and "nasty" to Western ears as we are used to the chromatic scale.
To the Japanes our music is very limited in pitch variation and.
THAT is nothing to do with genes, it's an expression of the upbringing and exposure to sounds.
SAME WITH ENGINES :)

In addition, i believe it is Peugot who is now experimenting with a 4 speed gearbox instead of six. Less shifts means throttle earlier and less fooling around with the gearbox, in addition to more reliability. You simply can't do that with a peaky engine, or else you'll be out of the powerband.
Peugeot started the season with a 4-speed box in the 307CC in the belief that the increased torque they are now producing that they could use less gears and it waould be faster.
It didn't work out that way.
I suspect because EVERYONE managed to get increased torque in the new cars for this season and the advantage was ONLY in the gear change.
THey have now gone back to a 6 speed ( though may sometinmes be a 5 ) for the rest of the season.
I belive that hindsight shows that no matter what the engine designers do there is ALWAYS a peak to the power and torque curves and that a driver needs to use the gears to keep the engine operating in that peak range. A few percentage difference is engough to win or lose a stage in WRC and so they've gone back to more gears to keep the engine in the power band.
Comparing the 307 with alkst years 206 the 4-speed had an advantage.
Mainly because of the engine and NOT the gearbox.
Well done to Peugeot for trying something different, but it didnt work out.

Slicks

05-04-2004, 08:00 AM

ah, now I see.
Japanese pop-off valves and over-huge exhaustrs are more about noise than performance.
I think you're not hearing a real competition I4 :)
We've already touched on the revs thing.
You don't like high revs coz you're not used to them.
EVERY bike racer will enthuse on revs because they ARE used to them.
It's social learned preference.
Like Big Macs versus pasta :)

Once again you assume i dont like high revs. I do like high revving engines but only when there is use to them. For example, most japanese high revving engines(on cars, not bikes) are annoying for daily driving being that they have no low end torque. You have to ride at 5000RPMs just to keep up with traffic, opposed to being in something like my blazer that has low end torque, where i ride at about 1600 RPMs in traffic. Also for most of the torqueless ones nothing happens untill you hit that peak power point, which is annyoing also, and decreases accleration.

Notice that the only car you've said you like is becuase it SOUNDED like a Cobra. Not it's performance.
This thread was started because there was a view of putting big engine in an Elise as the source of a better car. For SOUND , fine, do that if you own one and can afford it. But lets not confuse sound with performance PLEASE.
No i didnt like it because of its sound, i was more interested, and impressed of it because of its sound. I see 300Zxs all the time, this being unique, not sounding like another high winding week waker. Being a TT i already now how it perfoms, and its most likely better being that it was modified.

Slicks

05-04-2004, 08:06 AM

I'm fed up pointing out that THAT is a personal preference guided by what we are used to.
Have you ever listened to Japanes music ( traditional ).
It is discorndant and "nasty" to Western ears as we are used to the chromatic scale.
To the Japanes our music is very limited in pitch variation and.
THAT is nothing to do with genes, it's an expression of the upbringing and exposure to sounds.
SAME WITH ENGINES :)

I know that your saying but would you rather be driving a car that sounded like a lawnmower or other garden appliences, or be drving a car that sounded like a speed boat?

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 08:09 AM

You have to ride at 5000RPMs just to keep up with traffic,
Hmm, a differnce I wasn't aware of.
Are you serious about the numbers ?
Coz the engines we get will pull from 2000 revs 4 up and will pull from 1500 with no passengers. So I think you're either mistaken or thre is something severely wrong with what you get shipped. I didn't think the octane difference would have made such a big difference - Europe has higher octane fuel on the forecourts than US.

Also for most of the torqueless ones nothing happens untill you hit that peak power point, which is annyoing also, and decreases accleration.
Not as much as you state, but yes there is a bit of keeping it in the 2000-6000 range. But as they can reve to 7500 it's still lots of revs left :)

ANyone know the US octane rating and I guess from EUropean perspective how it rates energy-wise against the "new fuels" like Shells OPTIMAX ??
Driver in rally team is an ex-BP manager, he usually knows this kind of stuff, I'll ask him

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 08:18 AM

I know that your saying but would you rather be driving a car that sounded like a lawnmower or other garden appliences, or be drving a car that sounded like a speed boat?
bias, bias always the bias .... "garden appliance"

Funnily Honda are proud of their lawnmower engines, they are high in the efficience stakes :)

What kind of speed boat would you be referring to ?
Would that be diesel Volvo Penta's ??

Sterndrive are BIG Vs - and multiples , but they don't have to steer much :)

Anyway, WHAT has that to do with cars.
We've already had a thread with the largest engine in the world being for a boat. It was posted for fun !!

I want a car that sounds like a car.
You seem to lack the exposure to all the forms of engine and race setups to grasp the differences.
A car can sound great because it has a very fast, high revving low inertia engine and it can sound great because it has a burbling V* ( catch the MG Power SV I posted :) )
It's not the sound that makes a car.
I can stickk a CD with Ferrari engien noies into my Nissan Micra and enjoy the "sound"
It won't make it go better.

Performance and getting the hairs on the back of the nekc up make it.
For some it's straight line and 0-60.
For others it's gravel stages and rallying.
Others it's track and twisties.
No one configuratino is right for them all no matter how much you try to squeeze it.

I can accept that NO I4 can hope to meet the power of a V* dragster.
Seemingly you can't concur under any circumstances.

Ah well you only flog a dead horse for sooo long :)

DasModell

05-04-2004, 12:26 PM

Me . an european.. consider this being a sports car :)

Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale .. although i think the stats are a little to high .. :)
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=968

Slicks

05-04-2004, 01:28 PM

Hmm, a differnce I wasn't aware of.
Are you serious about the numbers ?
Coz the engines we get will pull from 2000 revs 4 up and will pull from 1500 with no passengers. So I think you're either mistaken or thre is something severely wrong with what you get shipped. I didn't think the octane difference would have made such a big difference - Europe has higher octane fuel on the forecourts than US.
A good example of this would be the S2000, one of my friends dad has one, and it does have to be in the higher RPMs to go any where. Also Car and Drive stated that untill the high RPMs are reached the s2000 drives like a civic.

ANyone know the US octane rating and I guess from EUropean perspective how it rates energy-wise against the "new fuels" like Shells OPTIMAX ??
Driver in rally team is an ex-BP manager, he usually knows this kind of stuff, I'll ask him[/QUOTE]
The high octane is 93.

Slicks

05-04-2004, 01:36 PM

bias, bias always the bias .... "garden appliance"

Only somewhat, most high revving I4s (mostly japanese) do sound like garden appliences.

What kind of speed boat would you be referring to ?
Would that be diesel Volvo Penta's ??

Just simply somthing like a double 454 speed boat. Those gurgles give me the goosebumps.

I want a car that sounds like a car.
You seem to lack the exposure to all the forms of engine and race setups to grasp the differences.
A car can sound great because it has a very fast, high revving low inertia engine and it can sound great because it has a burbling V* ( catch the MG Power SV I posted :) )
It's not the sound that makes a car.
I can stickk a CD with Ferrari engien noies into my Nissan Micra and enjoy the "sound"
It won't make it go better.

And i want a car that doesnt sound like im going to cut the grass with it. I dont know if you would understand or not, you said you guys dont "go out for a drive, or cruise" like americans. Enjoying the open road, and listening to your car. I love the sound of a downshift of a nicely displaced V8, as the RPMs drop.

Matra et Alpine

05-04-2004, 02:17 PM

Only somewhat, most high revving I4s (mostly japanese) do sound like garden appliences.
:dump:

Just simply somthing like a double 454 speed boat. Those gurgles give me the goosebumps.
:sarcasm on: well you would as most of your cars handle like boats :sarcasm off:

And i want a car that doesnt sound like im going to cut the grass with it.
:dump:

dont know if you would understand or not, you said you guys dont "go out for a drive, or cruise" like americans. Enjoying the open road, and listening to your car. I love the sound of a downshift of a nicely displaced V8, as the RPMs drop.
Wow, first time in THIS forum I've actually had to tell someone to go back and read wqhat was written.
I actully pointed out we don't "cruise" we tend to drive more energetically.
THAT doesn't preclude enjoying the sound and feel of the car - the opposite, there is no "feel" on a lazy straight line :)
To support your bias, you only read into it what you wanted ...
:dump:

For someone so cast in the sound of the V8 you seem unable to grasp that to others the sound of a couple of downshifts into a corner and fast clutchless upshifts as you exit with wheels spinning and the engine drawing air and spitting from a high-revving I4

:looks for killfile support in UCP:

crisis

05-04-2004, 05:22 PM

It won't be any less life than a tuned V8.
Granted it won't be as good as a low-revving V8.The life of an engine at peak power is measured in hours !!
I imagine a Hyabusa motor would have to rev harder than a V8 to produce equal hp. Therefore it is doing more work and thus wearing quicker.

WHen you look at economy it gets difficult.
What do you mean ? in town, freeway cruising or track days ?!!
If we are talking performance then we are talking about the engines working at their most effective range to produce the required power. A 4cylinder at 10000 vs a V8 at 5500?

DasModell

05-04-2004, 07:05 PM

well .. you'll have to rev a little higher then 5500 :)

Slicks

05-04-2004, 07:09 PM

:sarcasm on: well you would as most of your cars handle like boats :sarcasm off:
Please, and dont even think that they would handle bad because of the weight. Some of the best track cars weight 2500-3000lbs. (i.e McLearen F1, Ferrari Enzo)

Wow, first time in THIS forum I've actually had to tell someone to go back and read wqhat was written.
I actully pointed out we don't "cruise" we tend to drive more energetically.
THAT doesn't preclude enjoying the sound and feel of the car - the opposite, there is no "feel" on a lazy straight line :)
To support your bias, you only read into it what you wanted ...

There is feel on a "lazy" strait line, as much feel as going around a turn or slowing down. You should be the last to call anyone bias, being that a sports car must weigh a certain amount to be a sports car.

For someone so cast in the sound of the V8 you seem unable to grasp that to others the sound of a couple of downshifts into a corner and fast clutchless upshifts as you exit with wheels spinning and the engine drawing air and spitting from a high-revving I4

sarcasm: Yes i love the sound of a lawnmower shifting down an up dont you? Its just so indiscribable :rolleyes: :sarcasm
Here just listen to these engines http://www.corvettekillstories.com/videos/CorvetteChaos.wmv

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 01:24 AM

I imagine a Hyabusa motor would have to rev harder than a V8 to produce equal hp. Therefore it is doing more work and thus wearing quicker.
Not significant with todays materials, manufacturing tolerances and lubricants.
This was true 20 years ago, is insignificant now.
THe issue with an I4 versus a V8 is if you try to get the same poiwer then you are overstressing the engine components NOT because of the revs but because of the compression and chamber pressures.
A V8 will always be better there. And I've said that often )
BUT we started out on a discourse about engines being bigger to get more power as the only solution in sportscars which isn't true. A Radical is NOT state of the art, it is run-of-the-mill engineering and yet can produce a true sportscar which is beating EVERYTHING where it is tested. Tigers twin Kawasaki '7' wins on acceleration ( on street tyres, street roads, street fuel ) again only using off-the-shelf engineering.
BECAUSE they don't fight weight with power they defeat it with design choice.

If we are talking performance then we are talking about the engines working at their most effective range to produce the required power. A 4cylinder at 10000 vs a V8 at 5500?
And the significance of THAT is only in the sound and in the last 1% of performance when an engine builder will remove oil scavenging rings and go for oval pistons. I wasn't even going thre in my discussion on I4 engines. They are different beasts - Honda ceramic V4 in the 70s :)

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 01:47 AM

Please, and dont even think that they would handle bad because of the weight. Some of the best track cars weight 2500-3000lbs. (i.e McLearen F1, Ferrari Enzo)
Either your tracks are limited in the cars they run or you don't get there often.
The big cars are truly awesome track cars and race cars where they fit into a classification.
You need to see a TVR race, or a Caterham Superlight or Radical.
Hell even go see a Legends race - these still hold some of the track records in the UK. A bike engine in a scaled down spaceframe chassis with a Ford 1937 replica bodywork :)
On tracks like Road America the winner will be the one to get a higher speed THAT requires massive power and a willingness to give up conernering for speed. I've already mentioned the classic Min v Galaxie which I saw and was the limit of each benefit.
At Knockhill I've already posted lots of pictures where folks can SEE the smaller cars over-powering the bigger ones. It was embarrasing to wathc the Lambo come up to and round the hairpin.
I've exoerienced this myself in the 610 at Brands. Caterham factory were doing test on the same day and were braking 20metres AFTER me on EVERY corner. My higher top speed won it back on the long er straights but there are more corners than straights on most tracks ( and real roads ) so I wished to do a swap on that day :)
Lightness is also a disadvantage as you up the powers, it takes a lot of driver skill to keep the lightest cars from stepping out at the apex as the power is wound up, the downward force on the tyres just isn't enough to prevent slip :(
But it's a prefernece, I like to test that skill. A reason I hate F1 and traction control - what the hell was THAT doing in a race car ??

There is feel on a "lazy" strait line, as much feel as going around a turn or slowing down.
cough, splutter, what like sitting on your soaf at home.
Just sit back, put on the video and turn the surround sound up and imagin you're sitting in a 'vette on I26
:)

You should be the last to call anyone bias, being that a sports car must weigh a certain amount to be a sports car.
WRONG. A sportscar has to be a certain weight to compete in a class in an authorised competitive event. That's a regulations thing and new classes are created as new designs come out - Radical endurance racing being one to look out for this coming year :) 7-likes have ALWYAS had their own classification. TVRs, Clios and even Ford Fiestas all had their own classes.
You're confusing race control with design.
Every car has to be a certain weight to be allowed on the street ( well at least in the UK ).
But I can build anything to use as a trackday car - and some folks do !!

sarcasm: Yes i love the sound of a lawnmower shifting down an up dont you? Its just so indiscribable :rolleyes: :sarcasm
Here just listen to these engines http://www.corvettekillstories.com/videos/CorvetteChaos.wmv
Do you deliberately not READ psots.
I've not disputed that V8s sound great. I've even within the last week posted a file so folks on UCP can hera the MG Power SV ( shame only at idle ).
My bias is a preference based on an appreciation of all sides.
Yours is based on very little more than bad humour :)
You need to listen to an F1 car ( and not the last 2 years sh!t with traction ).
18,000 revs does it still sound like a lawnmower ?
A matra V12 - 10,000 revs - again do the seearch in UCP, I've posted likns to IT already. A state-of-the-art performance engine over 20 years ago.
Big engines DO sound good.
But so do great biek engines.
In first hand experience NOTHING will match the sound of the Honda bike on the Isle of Man accelerating away at 24,000 rpm and changin up through 12 gears as it went to an average 100mph round the island.
teh BDA engien from the rally Escorts sound great ( currently have one planted in a friends Stryker ) A great sound.
I can list lots of cars, engines and sites where sounds of real cars are posted.
it would be better than the vid, whilst interesting I don't need to see guys "proving" their cars by doing doonuts and burnouts. The best part was the last 10 second. Sadly folks thein kdonuts and burnouts ARE performance instead of the reality of poor design - a perfect design will NOT be able to do a burnout :) When you can explain why, you will have come far grasshopper :)

DasModell

05-05-2004, 02:19 AM

lol .. F1 cars can't do donuts . exactly because they are almoast perfect designs .. :) and Traction control is one of the things that makes them so .. but i woudn;t miss them :)

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 03:10 AM

lol .. F1 cars can't do donuts . exactly because they are almoast perfect designs .. :) and Traction control is one of the things that makes them so .. but i woudn;t miss them :)
They can, but as with WRC what the driver does is switch off traction control and dump the clutch and hope it doens't break or dial out the rear brake bias and then do as many as they like.

it would only be in a perfect world you could NEVER do donuts, there is always a away to make the back end break away, TEasiest for cars with VERY sticky rears is to start forward movement and then full lock, brakes and rev like billy-o Works for the 610 when I've spun out :)

DasModell

05-05-2004, 03:19 AM

yeap . Traction control is what makes the F1 "almoast" impossible to donut .. :) .. and i did something like that with the GPL :) .. no traction control there .. :)

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 05:00 AM

Please, and dont even think that they would handle bad because of the weight. Some of the best track cars weight 2500-3000lbs. (i.e McLearen F1, Ferrari Enzo)
Last word on light versus big PLEASE ...

From Radical newsletter re American track outing....One member driving his yellow slick-shod F-50, attempted to stay in front of the SR3 Turbo but soon spun off course yielding to the pressure to keep on the pace. Another member driving a brilliant red Ferrari Enzo was unable to pull away from the Turbo on the main straight.

Radical SR-3 on normal tyres and the F-50 was on SLICKS.
So it still couldn't manage to corner better.
And the Enzo lost out on the straights.

I love facts in arguments over over opinions :)

This is only on the performance axis of our discussion.
Though I'd not like to sit in an Enzo for 4-5 hours either :)

Slicks

05-05-2004, 06:56 AM

Either your tracks are limited in the cars they run or you don't get there often.
The big cars are truly awesome track cars and race cars where they fit into a classification.
I know you know what the nuringbring is. For example the corvette Z06 ran a 7:56 on it, thats not too shabby.

cough, splutter, what like sitting on your soaf at home.
Just sit back, put on the video and turn the surround sound up and imagin you're sitting in a 'vette on I26
:)
Yeah, and then you just lean to one side to turn ;)

WRONG. A sportscar has to be a certain weight to compete in a class in an authorised competitive event. That's a regulations thing and new classes are created as new designs come out - Radical endurance racing being one to look out for this coming year :) 7-likes have ALWYAS had their own classification. TVRs, Clios and even Ford Fiestas all had their own classes.
You're confusing race control with design.
Every car has to be a certain weight to be allowed on the street ( well at least in the UK ).
But I can build anything to use as a trackday car - and some folks do !!

This isnt Gran Turismo on playstation, this is real life. These classes your talking about dont mean squat on the road.

You need to listen to an F1 car ( and not the last 2 years sh!t with traction ).
18,000 revs does it still sound like a lawnmower ?
What does an F1 car have? Oh thats right a V10...not a I4.

A matra V12 - 10,000 revs - again do the seearch in UCP, I've posted likns to IT already. A state-of-the-art performance engine over 20 years ago.

Yes, a V12.

I can list lots of cars, engines and sites where sounds of real cars are posted.
it would be better than the vid, whilst interesting I don't need to see guys "proving" their cars by doing doonuts and burnouts. The best part was the last 10 second. Sadly folks thein kdonuts and burnouts ARE performance instead of the reality of poor design - a perfect design will NOT be able to do a burnout :) When you can explain why, you will have come far grasshopper :)
That is where you are wrong. These are street cars, not race cars. None on that video was "proving" thier cars by doing doughnut or burnouts, you really need to stop assuming things. Doughnuts can be done in anycars, same as burnouts, so there is no "proving". Its just simply baby play fun in your sports car. Not only that but ever heard of traction control :rolleyes: Yeah a vette comes standard with it, and it can be turned off as you can see. BTW i guess the elise is not perfect then?

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 07:26 AM

Slick, listen, I've posted comments showoing the benefits of bigger engines and instead of READING them you feel convinced to use them as some justification that I'm saying something different.
If I post a V8/10/12/16 comment I AM already aware and I dont' see what hang up you have that someone ccan identfy their benefits. Take the blinkers off your attitude please !!

I know you know what the nuringbring is. For example the corvette Z06 ran a 7:56 on it, thats not too shabby.
the old 'ring has some huge straights.
even so Radical did 7.32 and have the ourtright record.
so what ????
It's common to go visit it in Europe .. http://www.delands.force9.co.uk/nurburgring.htm#NURBURGRINGPICS

Didn't you get the point of my comparing Road Atlanta and Oulton ?
Of course a bigger car will reduce the advantage if it can go on long straights.
ONE QUESTOIN HERE: Tell me if you bothered to look up Oulton. If you didnt' then what do you want out of a forum ? I come to share and learn from othres. I'm trying to help you understand another point of view.

This isnt Gran Turismo on playstation, this is real life. These classes your talking about dont mean squat on the road.
Wrong, the Euroepan classes are for production cars. So these are little modified from what you drive on the street.
The Radical and Caterham classes are based on the street car to start with, but they were winning everything so they were moved into their own classes otherwise nothing else could win.
Suggest some research before commenting further.
I can't speak for American race series and classes only FIA Europe track and rallying.

What does an F1 car have? Oh thats right a V10...not a I4.
Why does F1 have V1 ?
BECAUSE the rule says the engine must be .... V10.
WHy ? Because they want to keep costs down and know that it's cheaper to produce power from a larger engine than a smaller one.
it's going to get worse with the new ratified changes coming :(
However, F1 used to be very small capcity 1500cc and has changed engine sizes over the years.
In part to attract a world-wide audience.
Then of course there were the years of the 1500cc turbos which produced the most powerful engines ever in F1 :) and some fo the fastest - but I believe that to be more to do with ground-effect and skirts.
[QUOTE]Yes, a V12.
Haven't you made the connection with my nic and the Matra company ?
So why might I have posted a V12 ? To let you hear a fast revvign big engine.
So I guess the first thought wasn't that it was a lawnmower engine then :)

That is where you are wrong. These are street cars, not race cars. None on that video was "proving" thier cars by doing doughnut or burnouts, you really need to stop assuming things. Doughnuts can be done in anycars, same as burnouts, so there is no "proving". Its just simply baby play fun in your sports car. Not only that but ever heard of traction control :rolleyes: Yeah a vette comes standard with it, and it can be turned off as you can see. BTW i guess the elise is not perfect then?
Lost the plot a bit there, slicks.

I've never said the Elise is perfect in all conditions.
Or a Caterham, or Westfield or Radical.
I've competed in too many classes and rallies to hold a thought that one car does all :)
You do seem to hang onto the 'vette and big engines tho' !
So stop attributing your personal traits to others, thank you very much :)

You're being particulary childish and churlish in your traction control comment so I won't respond to the jibe.

YOU posted the vid.
I can do those things in any number of cars.
It's easy to make ANY car burn rubber.
It's even easier if it's over-powered !!
All the vid did was let me hear the car in the last 10 seconds and the rest of it was show-boating, pah, any kid can do that in a $500 Nova :)

Slicks

05-05-2004, 03:47 PM

Slick, listen, I've posted comments showoing the benefits of bigger engines and instead of READING them you feel convinced to use them as some justification that I'm saying something different.
If I post a V8/10/12/16 comment I AM already aware and I dont' see what hang up you have that someone ccan identfy their benefits. Take the blinkers off your attitude please !!

I know and have read them, and now the benifits of both sides. The only attidue i get is when you start assuming things that are completely wrong.

the old 'ring has some huge straights.
even so Radical did 7.32 and have the ourtright record.
so what ????
It's common to go visit it in Europe .. http://www.delands.force9.co.uk/nurburgring.htm#NURBURGRINGPICS

I brought up the Nuringbring because its supposed to be one of the hardest race tracks in the world. And according to many car companies and magazines it really brings out the weaknesses of car.

Didn't you get the point of my comparing Road Atlanta and Oulton ?
Of course a bigger car will reduce the advantage if it can go on long straights.
ONE QUESTOIN HERE: Tell me if you bothered to look up Oulton. If you didnt' then what do you want out of a forum ? I come to share and learn from othres. I'm trying to help you understand another point of view.

Yeah i looked it up, but that didnt help, i coudnt find any pics of the full course, but i know what your saying. I understand your point of view, and neither one is wrong.

Wrong, the Euroepan classes are for production cars. So these are little modified from what you drive on the street.
The Radical and Caterham classes are based on the street car to start with, but they were winning everything so they were moved into their own classes otherwise nothing else could win.
Suggest some research before commenting further.
I can't speak for American race series and classes only FIA Europe track and rallying.
It sounded like you were talking about street cars, and taking them to a track stock.

BECAUSE the rule says the engine must be .... V10.
WHy ? Because they want to keep costs down and know that it's cheaper to produce power from a larger engine than a smaller one.
it's going to get worse with the new ratified changes coming :(
However, F1 used to be very small capcity 1500cc and has changed engine sizes over the years.
In part to attract a world-wide audience.
Then of course there were the years of the 1500cc turbos which produced the most powerful engines ever in F1 :) and some fo the fastest - but I believe that to be more to do with ground-effect and skirts.

And it doesnt sound too bad being a V10 was my point.

Haven't you made the connection with my nic and the Matra company ?
So why might I have posted a V12 ? To let you hear a fast revvign big engine.
So I guess the first thought wasn't that it was a lawnmower engine then :)

No, actually i havnt really made any connection, you have to remember im in america, i dont know what alpine is, but im assuming its a race track.

I've never said the Elise is perfect in all conditions.
Or a Caterham, or Westfield or Radical.
I've competed in too many classes and rallies to hold a thought that one car does all :)
You do seem to hang onto the 'vette and big engines tho' !
So stop attributing your personal traits to others, thank you very much :)

It just sounds like your saying the elise is better than car X because its lighter. And the reason i bring up the vette is because it the best perfoming car for the money over here.

You're being particulary childish and churlish in your traction control comment so I won't respond to the jibe.

Sorry, it wasnt meant to be cruel toward you. Its just the fact that it seems you lack so much knowledge about american cars, and about american people, so you start assuming things that are untrue.

YOU posted the vid.
I can do those things in any number of cars.
It's easy to make ANY car burn rubber.
It's even easier if it's over-powered !!
All the vid did was let me hear the car in the last 10 seconds and the rest of it was show-boating, pah, any kid can do that in a $500 Nova :)

The point of the video was for sound and sound alone. I could hear almost every car on there, i dont know why you could only hear the last part.
Im sorry if i have affended you it was not my intentions. ;) :D

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 05:01 PM

And according to many car companies and magazines it really brings out the weaknesses of car.
Yes as it has off-camber corners, complex sequences and long straights.
But the BIG thing is anyone can go on it for 12 Euroes ( about $10 ) :)

It sounded like you were talking about street cars, and taking them to a track stock.
That was part of what I was trying to convey that theses were cars capable of racing and winning without the need for a large sum of moeny to tune them and make them different from what an ordinary owner can have.

No, actually i havnt really made any connection, you have to remember im in america, i dont know what alpine is, but im assuming its a race track.
No, Matra and Alpine are 2 of the great French sportscar companies. Multiple winners of Le Mans and world rally championships. Alpine developed the concept of racing a turbo 1500cc engine for F1 and delivered the prototype that Renault then used as the basis for domination in the sport. Matra built the screaming V12 for Le Mans and Formula 1.
Sadly both companies are no long independant or making sports or race cars.
I own 2 Matra sportscars ( small I4s ) and an Alpine A610, the last Alpines - a GT car which was raced in Le Mans. So as my UCP member entry says and my nic, I'm a bit of a race/rally and French car freak :)

It just sounds like your saying the elise is better than car X because its lighter. And the reason i bring up the vette is because it the best perfoming car for the money over here.[/QUOTE}
I only wanted to make the point that in some cases the Elise is a better car.
Depends what you want to do with it.
I've repeatedly agreed that if you want more power to move a big car quickly then you don't beat capacity and that means V configuration.
But I've clearly failed to commmunicate the difference in handling that exists. I HAVE been in both types of car on road and track.
My input is based on first hand experience.
[QUOTE]Its just the fact that it seems you lack so much knowledge about american cars, and about american people, so you start assuming things that are untrue.
Tthe things you say are untrue that I have "assumed" aren't. I've tried to explain my experiences so you could see they were first hand. I have also asked you to confirm where it didn't fit with your perception. But we never did get that cleared up.

The point of the video was for sound and sound alone. I could hear almost every car on there, i dont know why you could only hear the last part.
Im sorry if i have affended you it was not my intentions. ;) :D
The music hid most of the great sounds until that last section.
I'm not big on it as I've heard it live and I've heard better.
You want to stand at a circuit as an F1 car goes past.
You need to experience Isle of Man TT where a bike will go past you at 180mph in top on full revs and you could reach out and touch the bike.
Recordings are OK, but it's like sex, nothing beats the real thing :)

I've tried to convey some of that experience to expand knowledge for you and UCP readers.
Unfortunately, you see it as argument rather than discussion and statement.

I forget I'm one of the older guys on UCP and shouldn't assume everyone has developed and broadened horizons.

eg I'd posted the cars I always get when in the US. I was sure they were V8s. I would like to check if they ARE V8 and if that is unusual as a rental. As I'd said at the time, based on real experience I see lots of V8s in the US :)

Slicks

05-05-2004, 05:23 PM

Yes as it has off-camber corners, complex sequences and long straights.
But the BIG thing is anyone can go on it for 12 Euroes ( about $10 ) :)

Thats sweet for $10. I wish i had a track around me :mad:

That was part of what I was trying to convey that theses were cars capable of racing and winning without the need for a large sum of moeny to tune them and make them different from what an ordinary owner can have.

That makes perfect sence if they had classes.

No, Matra and Alpine are 2 of the great French sportscar companies. Multiple winners of Le Mans and world rally championships. Alpine developed the concept of racing a turbo 1500cc engine for F1 and delivered the prototype that Renault then used as the basis for domination in the sport. Matra built the screaming V12 for Le Mans and Formula 1.
Sadly both companies are no long independant or making sports or race cars.
I own 2 Matra sportscars ( small I4s ) and an Alpine A610, the last Alpines - a GT car which was raced in Le Mans. So as my UCP member entry says and my nic, I'm a bit of a race/rally and French car freak :)

Nice, any pics? Do you have any sites with good pics of marta and alpine cars?

Tthe things you say are untrue that I have "assumed" aren't. I've tried to explain my experiences so you could see they were first hand. I have also asked you to confirm where it didn't fit with your perception. But we never did get that cleared up.

Im sorry im not following you there.

The music hid most of the great sounds until that last section.
I'm not big on it as I've heard it live and I've heard better.
You want to stand at a circuit as an F1 car goes past.
You need to experience Isle of Man TT where a bike will go past you at 180mph in top on full revs and you could reach out and touch the bike.
Recordings are OK, but it's like sex, nothing beats the real thing :)

haha, true, but with the speakers up enough you can hear the cars pretty good. Ive had a super bike go past me at about 120mph, but thats it.

I've tried to convey some of that experience to expand knowledge for you and UCP readers.
Unfortunately, you see it as argument rather than discussion and statement.

It seems like you present it as an argument some times, so i take it as one.

eg I'd posted the cars I always get when in the US. I was sure they were V8s. I would like to check if they ARE V8 and if that is unusual as a rental. As I'd said at the time, based on real experience I see lots of V8s in the US :)
It would seem like it depends on where you go to rent your car. Most rental cars around me are I-4s and V/I6.