The Lotus Elise R vs. the Mini Cooper S JCW. [Archive]

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 03:50 AM

That is EXACTLY what i was gonna say. Also, The Lotus'll be more reliable than the fat ugly piece of crap.
A BMW-Engined, BMW-Engineered conservatively revving supermini vs a high revving engine renound for catching on fire regularly from a small company based in a warehouse in Hethel. Well done, you've made a completley unfounded comment!

In the Exige I had real fears that it was going to set alight. If you went under 20mph for more than 15 minutes, the radiator in the front clam would start to smoke infront of the windscreen and the cabin temperature would start to get unbearable, as would the smell of burning oil. However, it would have been hard to set alight seeing as everytime it rained water would gush into the cabin through the gaping window seals ... I now know what it is like to be incontinent.

Regardless of this, the Elise. I've never driven a new Mini, but I wouldn't trade the smile a Lotus puts on my face for anything (even if it does burn fuel and oil like no tomorrow).

clutch-monkey

03-02-2008, 03:58 AM

^ rover K engined or toyota engined?
and aren't the mini engines from mexico..

Suka

03-02-2008, 04:00 AM

you mean the clubman? It's a bleedin monstrosity.

...and by Clubman, do you mean the Countryman...;):D

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 04:10 AM

^ rover K engined or toyota engined?
and aren't the mini engines from mexico..
Both the K-series and the Toyota engines have overheating problems. Admittedly the Toyota engine is much more refined (and unfortunately less balsy than the S1), it still has the same smoking radiator and firey engine problem but to a lesser extent. Still, by no means reliable.

Interesting link for you Lotus Elise Problems (http://www.elises.co.uk/problems/common.html)
Interesting pic for you http://www.elisetrophy.com/file_repository/0/0a/Lotrdc_wallpaper_exige_fire_1024px.jpg :D

Matra et Alpine

03-02-2008, 04:12 AM

...and by Clubman, do you mean the Countryman...;):D
No, in a classic piece of historical abuse, BMW applied the Clubman name to the countryman version...
Why you may ask ?? Well, in an oversight the equal of the Rolls-Royce name debacle, BMW didn't buy the rights to use the Countryman name .... but DID buy the Clubman name.
So they coudl either have produced an odd, square-fronted MINI with the correct name or produced an odder, square-backed MINI and try to fob off the old name on idiots :D

clutch-monkey

03-02-2008, 04:26 AM

Both the K-series and the Toyota engines have overheating problems. Admittedly the Toyota engine is much more refined (and unfortunately less balsy than the S1), it still has the same smoking radiator and firey engine problem but to a lesser extent. Still, by no means reliable.

Interesting link for you Lotus Elise Problems (http://www.elises.co.uk/problems/common.html)
Interesting pic for you http://www.elisetrophy.com/file_repository/0/0a/Lotrdc_wallpaper_exige_fire_1024px.jpg :D

cheers. a quick scan of the first link seems to indicate it's mainly the earlier lotus' that are the worst? are those produced in the last 2 years any better?

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 04:26 AM

...and by Clubman, do you mean the Countryman...;):D
Very much off topic, but are you at Kent Uni? I'm on a year out at the moment but I'll be at Kent next year. I'm in Canterbury quite alot at the moment anyway because one of my friends goes to Kent, and the temptation of cheap booze on campus is too much to resist :o

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 04:34 AM

cheers. a quick scan of the first link seems to indicate it's mainly the earlier lotus' that are the worst? are those produced in the last 2 years any better?
Oh definitely. The fact that people have managed to get 400bhp out of the new Toyota unit with surprisingly little modification (apart from the mahoosive turbos and forged pistons) as opposed to a very warm 320bhp from the K-series just goes to show the new unit is more reliable. However, the new unit is also heavier and alot more docile .... definitely not as exciting as the Rover K-Series.

But after speaking to various people who race the new Elises/Exiges for a living, overheating is still an issue that plagues the cars more than it does with most other cars. It's a strange car because you have to go fast to keep it cool as it relies on air passing through the radiator, but if you over-do it then the engine generates too much heat. The worst place to be is in slow-moving traffic ... watching the temp gauge slowly rise while in a traffic jam is scary.

clutch-monkey

03-02-2008, 04:48 AM

Oh definitely. The fact that people have managed to get 400bhp out of the new Toyota unit with surprisingly little modification (apart from the mahoosive turbos and forged pistons) as opposed to a very warm 320bhp from the K-series just goes to show the new unit is more reliable. However, the new unit is also heavier and alot more docile .... definitely not as exciting as the Rover K-Series.

But after speaking to various people who race the new Elises/Exiges for a living, overheating is still an issue that plagues the cars more than it does with most other cars. It's a strange car because you have to go fast to keep it cool as it relies on air passing through the radiator, but if you over-do it then the engine generates too much heat. The worst place to be is in slow-moving traffic ... watching the temp gauge slowly rise while in a traffic jam is scary.
good to hear.
doesn't sound too diferent to an air cooled 911 :D

Street_Dreamer

03-02-2008, 05:05 AM

A BMW-Engined, BMW-Engineered conservatively revving supermini vs a high revving engine renound for catching on fire regularly from a small company based in a warehouse in Hethel. Well done, you've made a completley unfounded comment!

In the Exige I had real fears that it was going to set alight. If you went under 20mph for more than 15 minutes, the radiator in the front clam would start to smoke infront of the windscreen and the cabin temperature would start to get unbearable, as would the smell of burning oil. However, it would have been hard to set alight seeing as everytime it rained water would gush into the cabin through the gaping window seals ... I now know what it is like to be incontinent
You'd be surprised mate, don't be ignorant about the reliability problems of the Mini. My brother had one, it ate clutches among not being very reliable in other areas. His ECU and head gasket (i think the gasket) were screwed 2 months out of warranty forcing him to sell the car as he couldn't start it, even when he tried jumping it. A lot of people that buy minis expect it to be solid, but it isn't.

New Lotus are much more reliable as well, with Toyota engines and better, more reliable mechanicals.

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 06:00 AM

You'd be surprised mate, don't be ignorant about the reliability problems of the Mini. My brother had one, it ate clutches among not being very reliable in other areas. His ECU and head gasket (i think the gasket) were screwed 2 months out of warranty forcing him to sell the car as he couldn't start it, even when he tried jumping it. A lot of people that buy minis expect it to be solid, but it isn't.

New Lotus are much more reliable as well, with Toyota engines and better, more reliable mechanicals.
And you're basing your facts on just one car? Reliability rankings for 2004 - Autos - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7119227/) ... 13/100 cars had problems, which is really rather good.

Now go to the Lotus section of the PistonHeads forums and look at the percentage of owners who are having problems on there. I can guarantee you that 75% of the owners have had problems with their car within the first 6 months of ownership. This isn't a made-up percentage; I was told this by my local Lotus dealer of all people! :o

I'm not saying the Mini is reliable ... it's reliability is completley average. I'm saying that the Lotus is hell of a lot less reliable.

Also yes, the Toyota engined Elises are more reliable. But you could also say that the TVR Tuscan is more reliable than the TVR V8S ... that still doesn't make it a reliable car ;)

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 06:02 AM

good to hear.
doesn't sound too diferent to an air cooled 911 :D
Yeah, except in an Exige you're just scared in a traffic jam ... I bet in your 911 you're scared all of the time! Scary cars eh? All fun and games :D

Suka

03-02-2008, 06:17 AM

No, in a classic piece of historical abuse, BMW applied the Clubman name to the countryman version...

Thats what i was getting at... :rolleyes:

Ferrer

03-02-2008, 06:21 AM

and aren't the mini engines from mexico..
They were, the new ones are half french half german.

You'd be surprised mate, don't be ignorant about the reliability problems of the Mini. My brother had one, it ate clutches among not being very reliable in other areas. His ECU and head gasket (i think the gasket) were screwed 2 months out of warranty forcing him to sell the car as he couldn't start it, even when he tried jumping it. A lot of people that buy minis expect it to be solid, but it isn't.

New Lotus are much more reliable as well, with Toyota engines and better, more reliable mechanicals.
Our old Cooper S has been completely reliable. 3 years and 73,000km and no problem at all.

baddabang

03-02-2008, 07:05 AM

Mini. I can't fit in an Elise.

Street_Dreamer

03-02-2008, 08:49 AM

And you're basing your facts on just one car? Reliability rankings for 2004 - Autos - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7119227/) ... 13/100 cars had problems, which is really rather good.

Now go to the Lotus section of the PistonHeads forums and look at the percentage of owners who are having problems on there. I can guarantee you that 75% of the owners have had problems with their car within the first 6 months of ownership. This isn't a made-up percentage; I was told this by my local Lotus dealer of all people! :o

I'm not saying the Mini is reliable ... it's reliability is completley average. I'm saying that the Lotus is hell of a lot less reliable.

Also yes, the Toyota engined Elises are more reliable. But you could also say that the TVR Tuscan is more reliable than the TVR V8S ... that still doesn't make it a reliable car ;)Actually no, i know more people who have bought Minis and have had to take their cars to get problems fixed within 1 month of delivery. I'm not saying the Lotus is as reliable as an Audi or a Lexus, i'm just saying the Mini's not reliable, so that's not exactly something you can put in favour of it.

Aston Martin's are pretty unreliable (from what i've heard) but people still buy them because they're no so unreliable that the they will be picked over a less fun/special, slightly more reliable car.

The Elise/Exige might not be reliable, but the Mini isn't either and i'd take the Elise over it as if i wanted a (relatively) unreliable car, i'd much rather have one which would make me feel better and be better to drive.

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 09:18 AM

The Elise/Exige might not be reliable, but the Mini isn't either and i'd take the Elise over it as if i wanted a (relatively) unreliable car, i'd much rather have one which would make me feel better and be better to drive.
Have you not been reading anything anyone has been writing? The Mini doesn't have bad reliability ... if you call 13/100 cars having faults unreliable then obviously the whole car industry is unsatisfactory for you. If all of your friends just so happen to have bad Mini's then it's their fault because they're obviously buying them from somewhere dodgy. Afterall, 87% of other Mini drivers haven't had a problem with theirs.

And the Elise is in a completley different league when it comes to reliability ... 13/100 cars failing as opposed to atleast 75/100 cars failing ... that's almost 800% more unreliable! The Mini isn't unreliable ... it's reliability is average and exactly what you'd expect for a £12k super-mini.

Of course, I think I know why some people think the Mini is unreliable. The average Lotus driver is a man who when his car breaks down, fixes it.

The average Mini driver however is a metrosexual male who whenever his car breaks down complains and whines until someone fixes it for him.

Welcome to the 21st Century people ;)

NicFromLA

03-02-2008, 09:25 AM

For everyday the Mini no doubt, for blast in a twisty country road the Lotus.

By the way doesn't the latest Mini have like 210bhp or so?

The previous JCW had around 207hp, the new one is around 192 (source EVO mag). I was disapointed by this, but the reviews describe the new engine as all grown-up and they say the torque can really pull you out of a jam.

NicFromLA

03-02-2008, 09:27 AM

It's funny, from the comments you'd think the voting would be a little bit closer.

Ferrer

03-02-2008, 10:25 AM

The previous JCW had around 207hp, the new one is around 192 (source EVO mag). I was disapointed by this, but the reviews describe the new engine as all grown-up and they say the torque can really pull you out of a jam.
The new, new one has 212bhp apparently. :)

MINI Cooper S Clubman JCW - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/3618/MINI-Cooper-S-Clubman-JCW.html)

NicFromLA

03-02-2008, 10:33 AM

The new, new one has 212bhp apparently. :)

MINI Cooper S Clubman JCW - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/3618/MINI-Cooper-S-Clubman-JCW.html)

EVO lied to me. I will never trust Metcalf again.

Ferrer

03-02-2008, 10:35 AM

EVO lied to me. I will never trust Metcalf again.
He didn't lie, it was just the old new package (if that makes any sense). This has just been released some days ago.

With this new age of ultra powerful superminis the 192bhp option was lacking in outright numbers.

Street_Dreamer

03-02-2008, 11:12 AM

Have you not been reading anything anyone has been writing? The Mini doesn't have bad reliability ... if you call 13/100 cars having faults unreliable then obviously the whole car industry is unsatisfactory for you. If all of your friends just so happen to have bad Mini's then it's their fault because they're obviously buying them from somewhere dodgy. Afterall, 87% of other Mini drivers haven't had a problem with theirs.

And the Elise is in a completley different league when it comes to reliability ... 13/100 cars failing as opposed to atleast 75/100 cars failing ... that's almost 800% more unreliable! The Mini isn't unreliable ... it's reliability is average and exactly what you'd expect for a £12k super-mini.

Of course, I think I know why some people think the Mini is unreliable. The average Lotus driver is a man who when his car breaks down, fixes it.

The average Mini driver however is a metrosexual male who whenever his car breaks down complains and whines until someone fixes it for him.

Welcome to the 21st Century people ;)Sorry, truth be told i've skimmed through this really quickly, saw you replied so i wrote a quick one back while i was busy with school crap.

Also, I'll have to admit i didn't realise the Elise was so much higher, i thought it'd have double the failure rate. Also, lots of people who buy the Mini buy it with a ton of extras. My bro's cost £16k and for that money (and from BMW) we did expect better. I'm not gonna argue, i'm getting a fiat if i do well in exams and i don't expect that to be perfectly reliable but the dealership said that the Mini's weren't very reliable (BMW dealership, not Fiat, obviously), but I'm not sure. Just a few bad experiences with my bro and other people i know.

I'd still take an Elise, just because i want one, lol.

NicFromLA

03-02-2008, 11:16 AM

Of course, I think I know why some people think the Mini is unreliable. The average Lotus driver is a man who when his car breaks down, fixes it.

The average Mini driver however is a metrosexual male who whenever his car breaks down complains and whines until someone fixes it for him.

Welcome to the 21st Century people ;)

I'm that second type. Actually I'm pretty good at diagnosing what's wrong with a car, but as soon as the tools come out I'm inevitably going to make it worse.

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 12:22 PM

Sorry, truth be told i've skimmed through this really quickly, saw you replied so i wrote a quick one back while i was busy with school crap.

Also, I'll have to admit i didn't realise the Elise was so much higher, i thought it'd have double the failure rate. Also, lots of people who buy the Mini buy it with a ton of extras. My bro's cost £16k and for that money (and from BMW) we did expect better. I'm not gonna argue, i'm getting a fiat if i do well in exams and i don't expect that to be perfectly reliable but the dealership said that the Mini's weren't very reliable (BMW dealership, not Fiat, obviously), but I'm not sure. Just a few bad experiences with my bro and other people i know.

I'd still take an Elise, just because i want one, lol.
Haha, I think most of us would still take the Elise as the poll seems to show. Every man has his own experiences of certain cars, and it sure does sound like Minis have been out to get you :D

At the end of the day it hurt me to defend the New Mini in any way because it is a huge gimmick, and there will always be people who will buy into their marketing. Maybe if it didn't have a Mini badge, or it atleast resembled the original Mini in any way, I'd like the car. However it doesn't offer cheap motoring, it's absolutely not Mini in size and it has not shown itself as a complete and utter weapon like Paddy Hopkirk showed us the original was.

If you want a 2008 Mini, buy a Renault Clio Sport ... for me that resembles pretty much everything the original Mini Cooper S was (though I would really like to hear what you guys think which modern car most deserves the Mini badge :))

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 12:26 PM

I'm that second type. Actually I'm pretty good at diagnosing what's wrong with a car, but as soon as the tools come out I'm inevitably going to make it worse.
Oh no, you don't sound like that sort of person. The sort of person I'm talking about usually threatens legal action and forces the company to recall all of their cars when they hear a small clicking noise coming from their indicators ;)

Atleast you have the patience to spend more than 14 seconds thinking about what is actually wrong with the car :)

Ferrer

03-02-2008, 12:30 PM

Haha, I think most of us would still take the Elise as the poll seems to show. Every man has his own experiences of certain cars, and it sure does sound like Minis have been out to get you :D

At the end of the day it hurt me to defend the New Mini in any way because it is a huge gimmick, and there will always be people who will buy into their marketing. Maybe if it didn't have a Mini badge, or it atleast resembled the original Mini in any way, I'd like the car. However it doesn't offer cheap motoring, it's absolutely not Mini in size and it has not shown itself as a complete and utter weapon like Paddy Hopkirk showed us the original was.

If you want a 2008 Mini, buy a Renault Clio Sport ... for me that resembles pretty much everything the original Mini Cooper S was (though I would really like to hear what you guys think which modern car most deserves the Mini badge :))
Interesting that you criticise the Mini for the bulk, and yet after recommend the Clio RS, which has won a lot of mass and size in the transition from Mk II to Mk III.

:Exige:

03-02-2008, 12:53 PM

Interesting that you criticise the Mini for the bulk, and yet after recommend the Clio RS, which has won a lot of mass and size in the transition from Mk II to Mk III.
It was actually the MkII I was reffering to ... I didn't even know Renault released a MkIII Renault Sport until now :o The dealer I pass is still selling the MkIIs.

Street_Dreamer

03-02-2008, 02:05 PM

Interesting that you criticise the Mini for the bulk, and yet after recommend the Clio RS, which has won a lot of mass and size in the transition from Mk II to Mk III.Cinquecento Abarth is what you need, mate. :D

Ferrer

03-02-2008, 02:49 PM

Cinquecento Abarth is what you need, mate. :D
Well actually...

Lotus Elise + Mini Cooper S = Mazda MX-5

Or something.

whiteballz

03-02-2008, 04:06 PM

Well actually...

Lotus Elise + Mini Cooper S = Mazda MX-5

Or something.

Half the fun, twice the hairdresser? :D

jks

kigango123

03-02-2008, 08:07 PM

Elise all the way, besides i doubt i can fit in a mini without some problems :D

Quiggs

03-02-2008, 08:11 PM

80% of the people in these polls that pick the faster/more hardcore/more exclusive/more expensive car would sell them inside the first month of owning them. You couldn't afford the running costs, or chiropractor bills, from daily driving an Elise.

The_Canuck

03-02-2008, 08:16 PM

Quiggs

03-02-2008, 08:18 PM

Toyota dealers don't service Lotuses last I checked. And if you think Lotus charges Toyota prices for engine parts, you've got another thing coming.

The_Canuck

03-02-2008, 08:19 PM

Toyota dealers don't service Lotuses last I checked.

Im sure any toyota dealer would be happy to have you spend money there...

Quiggs

03-02-2008, 08:22 PM

Good idea- let the same knuckle head who works on Corollas all day near your $50,000 track toy. Let me know how that works out for you.

http://www.my914-6.com/crap/PICT0077.JPG

NicFromLA

03-02-2008, 09:37 PM

Elise all the way, besides i doubt i can fit in a mini without some problems :D

If you can't fit in in a Mini there is NO WAY YOU ARE EVER fitting in an Elise.

clutch-monkey

03-03-2008, 12:08 AM

Toyota dealers don't service Lotuses last I checked. And if you think Lotus charges Toyota prices for engine parts, you've got another thing coming.
it costs about the same as the mini to service. it's more expensive for consumables such as tires and brakes, though.

If you can't fit in in a Mini there is NO WAY YOU ARE EVER fitting in an Elise.
qft
unless you left the roof off permanently

:Exige:

03-03-2008, 03:55 AM

The running costs of a toyota engine are suddenly higher than that of a BMW? wtf...
Just because an engine is made by Toyota, doesn't mean it'll have the reliability of every other Toyota engine. It's a Toyota engine that is revved to hell and back.

As I said earlier in the thread, it drinks oil and petrol like no tomorrow. It eats tyres for breakfast and the suspension bushings wear out in minutes. Insurance Group 20. And then there are the multitude of unpredictable problems you get ... electricals going, oil leaks, cooling problems. And by unpredictable, I actually mean it's unpredictable what problem you're going to get this week ;)

Oh and get one with forced induction and you're in for an even bigger shock :( If anything the Lotus teaches you that you can put a price on happiness ... unfortunately that price is pretty damn high. Oh and please don't mention depreciation.

Q TOY

03-03-2008, 04:10 AM

I think the pole results say it all. No contest. Chalk and cheese comparison.

whiteballz

03-03-2008, 04:24 AM

typical brittish rant

Who cares? when it looks so sexy, and is so fun, What does it matter? plus, over here we dont get traffic, and out roads are better :), so exige/elise = win

:Exige:

03-03-2008, 06:25 AM

Typical ignorant rant
How are you meant to drive a car if you can't afford the petrol/insurance/parts for it?

Hell, if it was as simple as how you've made it out to be I'd still be driving the Exige. However it doesn't quite work like that in the real world, Whiteballz ;)

NSXType-R

03-03-2008, 01:56 PM

I'm no fan of the Mini. The Clubman, by the way, looks hideous from the rear end.

Nuff said.

whiteballz

03-03-2008, 05:24 PM

How are you meant to drive a car if you can't afford the petrol/insurance/parts for it?

Hell, if it was as simple as how you've made it out to be I'd still be driving the Exige. However it doesn't quite work like that in the real world, Whiteballz ;)

:eek: Oh noes! :p

Nowhere in the original post does it mention anything about running costs or anything of the sort, I appreicate that you guys are going into more detail, But it was a simple question - Simple answer call IMO. Regardless, You dont buy a car you cant afford the ancillaires on, and should be aware of all issues with a car before buying, so I'd still say elise ;)

:Exige:

03-04-2008, 03:30 AM

:eek: Oh noes! :p

Nowhere in the original post does it mention anything about running costs or anything of the sort, I appreicate that you guys are going into more detail, But it was a simple question - Simple answer call IMO. Regardless, You dont buy a car you cant afford the ancillaires on, and should be aware of all issues with a car before buying, so I'd still say elise ;)
Well if you had taken the time to read the whole thread, you will have noticed that my posts are not in reply to the original post :rolleyes: