Increased violence in Israel, and to likely increase

[CdocZ]

Please, for the sake of the issue at hand, I very much prefer this to not become a political debate. As I understand that that is not very likely, keep it far above the average level of civility and respect.

Tonight, three Arab terrorists went into a Yeshiva (Jewish place of study) in Kiryat Moshe, with explosive belts and guns, and started shooting. As of now, two are dead, and the third is expected to be apprehended within the next half hour perhaps. The estimated death toll is eight as of now, with a few others wounded.

Earlier in the past two weeks, Israel made a military move into Gaza to take out various militants. Around 100 people are said to have been killed, of which Israel claims 90+% were militants. Other sources claim various percentages from 50% up to Israel's claimed 90%. Regardless, there WERE innocent lives lost in the move. The move was in response to the advancement in the range and choice of targets by Arab rockets, as they are now hitting the city of Ashkelon. This puts the number of civilians in range of these rockets up from 25,000, to somewhere around 250,000 who are threatened.

Both the Israeli government and Hamas proclaim that they will be pushing much harder in the future against their counter-part.

For nearly two years there was a relative calm in Israel, until these past two weeks. Now, it has been broken by both sides, and this beautiful country is being torn apart by baseless hatred again.

I feel no side is in the right, and that both sides are in the wrong. All of these events are tragic. That nearly three rockets a day have been falling on Sderot (an Israeli town), that innocent lives had to be lost in a move that was quite obviously a revenge attack, and that three men could walk into a house of worship and study, and shoot un-armed men.

I would just like to take a figurative moment of silence here, in mourning for all the lives lost, Palestinian or Israeli, Zionist militant or radical Muslim. Life is life, and while its loss is inevitable, this whole situation need not happen.

I am on a two month study-abroad program in Jerusalem, and today we went to see the places where Christianity was born.

Today we went to see the birth places of Christianity, the Church of Ascension (from afar), and went inside the place where the Last Supper was to have happened, the Church of Visitation/John The Baptist, and the Church of Mary Magdalene. At the place of the Last Supper, a Christian group of pilgrims went in after us and started singing prayers. It was beautiful, watching them. I have never had the opportunity to see anyone but Jews pray with passion before, and that too is beautiful, but this was new. Afterwards, we sat outside the supposed "Tomb of King David" (Jews do not believe that is his burial place, but many Christians and Muslims do), and got a small lecture. As my teacher was finishing his lecture on a personal view on the anti-Judaic feelings many early Christians had, an Orthodox Yeshivanick was listening (the site is owned by the Diaspora Yeshiva). He listened as my teacher said things along the lines of "It is sad that Jews and Christians have had such bad relations over the past two thousand years, because really, they are simply two ways of loving the same God".

The man who was listening was what I would call a Zionist militant (except for his age). He does NOT represent the typical Israeli at all, just as a very important note. Why is his mention important? He said what my teacher was saying was horrible and disgusting. He said "how could you (my teacher) say such nasty things about Jews? The Europeans killed all of their Jews, how could you love them!" My teacher responded that he was in fact a Jew, and the man responded, "I sincerely doubt this...."

It is absolutely disgusting....that murder happens, almost easily, here, and that there is so much hate. Not even for the "other guys out here", but for each other, too. And that the extremists get their voice heard by the news, and that somehow, the government is at least doing what they ask even somewhat.....

Discuss if you want, share similar stories or thoughts. Just please, for the sake of the eight dead tonight, and the hundred dead from before....keep this discussion at the utmost level of respect :(

[mclaren_crazy]

My sincere condonlences to the families that have been affected by this. I was in many of these places just a year and a half ago and went to I'm sure many of the same places that CdocZ has visited recently. I know the beauty of the country and feel a strong tie to it as a practicing Jew. I only hope and pray for these things to stop needlessly happening over again.

[Gt1Street]

nearly three rockets a day have been falling on Sderot (an Israeli town)

Wrong, its more like thirty a day

and regarding the Yishiva guy you mentioned, it was said by some arab leader (cant remember who) that they shouldnt try and kill the jews all the time its useless, what they need to do is just give them some time and they will devour themselves (which is sad but true)

but, and it is a big one. there is no nation that does not devide itself into classes/sections/views and what not and then begines to hate one another. there for its inevitable and can only be expected...

[MadMax13]

The problem Hamas has is the US is backing Fatah in an attempt to have the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Hamas overthrown, Hamas sees Israel as a part of the scheme and the violence resumes...

[aiasib]

What a shame, so much for the peace process,

My condolences to the eight Israeli families and to the hundreds of Palestinian families of those who were killed this month.

[coolieman1220]

terrorist groups continue to make us muslims look bad. sigh

[digitalcraft]

terrorist groups continue to make us muslims look bad. sigh

Why do you feel more attention is not payed to moderate muslims? we see all the time extremists calling for violence, but the yearly fatwas denouncing terrorism? You might see them for a moment and then they're forgotten.

[coolieman1220]

exactly, ur right its one of those the bad counts a lot more then the good. it's a shame

[kingofthering]

I shake my head in sadness.

As CdocZ's teacher said, they're all worshiping the same person. Just through different methods.

[wwgkd]

Why do you feel more attention is not payed to moderate muslims? we see all the time extremists calling for violence, but the yearly fatwas denouncing terrorism? You might see them for a moment and then they're forgotten.

I hate it when that happens. When people group all muslims into the same category as suicide bombers I always try to point out everything wrong with that way of thinking.

But when the people calling for peace are being ignored by the people with rockets, the voice of peace tends to be drowned out by the explosions and the cries of the wounded. When so many in the area view a ceasefire as a sign of weakness (and thus a sign that their efforts should be ramped up,) it's hard to do anything to stop the cycle. I honestly don't see this ending with mutual peace. I think it will continue until there is a bloodbath big enough to stop one side or the other. Then again I'm also skeptical of the collective intelligence of the human race.

[henk4]

I shake my head in sadness.

As CdocZ's teacher said, they're all worshiping the same person. Just through different methods.


the real sadness is that they are worshiping the same myth.

[Zytek_Fan]

the real sadness is that they are worshiping the same myth.

I'll agree with that, but people may worship God if they choose.

[CdocZ]

Just out of a curious note, despite the relevancy of a specific number, Hamas claims to have fired ~7,000 rockets in 2007, which comes to around 20 a day....regardless what it actually is, it is too many.

I hate to say it, but I am starting to think that wwgkd might be right....the human race in this case is just too near-sighted, and this only looks to be getting worse and worse.

Israel has recently (not as of today, about 2 weeks before the attack last night I believe) said some things that basically amount to "the gloves are off", and that they will make military moves much more often and freely into Gaza. So either somehow Hamas is torn apart simply by having all of their members killed, Israel AND Hamas are forced by the international community to back off, or some third option that has not yet crossed my mind but definitely exists....it does look like the situation is going to simply get worse and worse.

On the note of Islam and it's press....it really is sad. Hamas calculates everything down like math, who they will piss off, when, etc. It's said by many Israeli's that even the comments the people make before they blow themselves up or start shooting are 100% scripted, for a more "accurate" effect. And because of them, racism in America for sure, and very likely the whole Western world, is sprouting up again worse than it has been for a long time. It is disgusting, and it exists on both sides.

Another story: I spent a week recently at a Kibbutz in the South (Ketura), about 45 minutes North of Eilat. There is a very respected agricultural school there, and they get a lot of foreign students; some are from Jordan. We got to meet two from Jordan, and someone asked if there was any pressure to not go to Israel from family or friends. One said there was virtually none at all. The other lost his job as a teacher, his father does not speak to him, was kicked out of the lawyers union, and whether it is officially or unofficially, because he has an Israeli stamp in his passport the only Arabic country that will let him enter their land is Jordan now, only because of his residency. It is really sad because I can already see such an issue developing in the West, even if only "unofficially".

EDIT: Respect for the political and social issues at hand includes a respect for the fact that many people do believe in God/a God-like entity. I am not saying to end any comments on the idea of religion being something real or not, but I am saying that any comments bordering on what could be considered "smart-ass alternatives" be kept out, or rephrased.

[henk4]

I'll agree with that, but people may worship God if they choose.

they may worship anything, as long as they keep it for themselves.

[Gt1Street]

at the moment there is reletive quietness, even though there was a suicide bombing last night at a holy place in the holy city no move has been taken so far.

the only move for the moment is a closure on the borders.

which is another sad thing, we cannot close them because then people wont get necessities such as gas, food, water and medicine but then again as soon as they are open some militant group takes advantage of that and starts smugling firearms and what not and even if not then Hamas seizes the goods and sells them to the highest bidders.

its a lose lose situatuion both for Israel and for Gaza and the West Bank.

[CdocZ]

at the moment there is reletive quietness, even though there was a suicide bombing last night at a holy place in the holy city no move has been taken so far.

the only move for the moment is a closure on the borders.

which is another sad thing, we cannot close them because then people wont get necessities such as gas, food, water and medicine but then again as soon as they are open some militant group takes advantage of that and starts smugling firearms and what not and even if not then Hamas seizes the goods and sells them to the highest bidders.

its a lose lose situatuion both for Israel and for Gaza and the West Bank.

There were no bombs set off - the terrorist(s) did have explosive belts, but "only" guns went off.

Where in Israel are you, by the way?

[Gt1Street]

There were no bombs set off - the terrorist(s) did have explosive belts, but "only" guns went off.

Where in Israel are you, by the way?

right, sorry for missinformation...

Well, I live in Lod (near Ben Gurion airport) and work in Ramat Gan.
But then again I go about all over the country (its easy when its as small as ours)

How long are you here for ?

[CdocZ]

I am here until the end of Purim, then back to the states I go. I'm in Jerusalem for the time being, but I'll be a bit South of Tel Aviv as of tonight for 2 days.

[Gt1Street]

do you have access to your msn messanger account ?

[CdocZ]

Unfortunately, no. I forgot the password, and I could not bring my own computer here. Pathetic, I know :p

[Gt1Street]

well, then its PM's I guess

[jediali]

the real sadness is that they are worshiping the same myth.

I never asked, why are you so sure that "no God exists"? I am certainly not religous but even as a scientific type of guy am not set against the existance of a God as you seem to be.

edit: My heart goes out to those involved with this violence, news thus far is of no slowdown or peace talks.

[Kitdy]

I never asked, why are you so sure that "no God exists"? I am certainly not religous but even as a scientific type of guy am not set against the existance of a God as you seem to be.

There is no proof that can conclusively prove god exists or does not exist.

Agnosticism is the rational solution.

[henk4]

I never asked, why are you so sure that "no God exists"? I am certainly not religous but even as a scientific type of guy am not set against the existance of a God as you seem to be.

I am not sure that no "whatever" exists. Nobody can be sure, which gives nobody a reason to tell me what I should believe or not.

[Wouter Melissen]

Why do you feel more attention is not payed to moderate muslims? we see all the time extremists calling for violence, but the yearly fatwas denouncing terrorism? You might see them for a moment and then they're forgotten.

This is a common misconception. Why should perfectly decent people speak up because a group of people who are completely unrelated to them do something despicable? It's like asking everybody from my area to defend the people from this area after Drakkie does something ridiculous again. There are two groups of people at fault here and the moderate Muslims are certainly not among them. At fault are the people that abuse religion to serve their own personal agenda and those that confuse said religion with said agenda.

[jediali]

which gives nobody a reason to tell me what I should believe or not.

I think i get you but Whos telling you what to believe?


There are two groups of people at fault here and the moderate Muslims are certainly not among them. At fault are the people that abuse religion to serve their own personal agenda and those that confuse said religion with said agenda.

Well phrased. Im not quite sure what to conclude but I am quite sure human corruption has a large part to play, in whatever capacity.

[Wouter Melissen]

Well phrased. Im not quite sure what to conclude but I am quite sure human corruption has a large part to play, in whatever capacity.

Power corrupts.

[henk4]

I think i get you but Whos telling you what to believe?



I think history has provided us with numerous examples of people who were trying to convince others that their belief is the only one that is the truth, and that in many cases those same people have forced their beliefs upon others. (I am sure you remember for instance the Spanish Inquisition).

[Wouter Melissen]

I think i get you but Whos telling you what to believe?

Currently it is not so much people telling me what to believe, but what to do. Actually what not to do. There are many countries where religious believes prevent people from making decisions for themselves. Abortion or homosexuality are subjects that come to mind ...

[dydzi]

the real sadness is that they are worshiping the same myth.

different people live for different values. what can be a truth value if not religious believes

[P4g4nite]

There is no proof that can conclusively prove god exists or does not exist.

Agnosticism is the rational solution.
And we can't disprove leprechauns either but nobody suggests suspension of disbelief is the most rational response.
I don't know for certain there are no gods but I think most human concepts of god are ridiculous and I've got no reason to treat them seriously.

[CdocZ]

Maybe...

Religion helped provide a strong basis of cooperation between humanity early on, and to develop more complex societies. Not just by getting people to work together, but to take on various moral codes and ethics in order to perpetuate this process and bind them together in their own unique way. It has been used to help start humanity as a powerful species, and it has been abused in the worst of ways. Whether or not it is TRUE, is another matter altogether that has been argued by many hundreds of men, believers and non-believers, radicals and moderates, and many of them far more intelligent than we.

Let us drop the issue of whether religion is real, and focus more on the reality of religion; it is currently being abused horribly, and what theories/actions can be done to stop/slow down this abuse.

One way to do this could be to use religion right back at them, but if anyone is activist enough and this is an issue they feel strongly about, to start the same kind of propaganda and protests and etc that they use, except the other way around.

NOTE: The above is a theory I am proposing for discussion, not a request! Sorry if it sounds like I am asking you to get out there and write up your picket sign for the next protest :p So anyone want to come up with pros and cons to that theory, or suggest something to change? Or something else, of course. I am not even sure this is a good idea for a direction to take this thread, haha

[henk4]

Maybe...

Religion helped provide a strong basis of cooperation between humanity early on, and to develop more complex societies. Not just by getting people to work together, but to take on various moral codes and ethics in order to perpetuate this process and bind them together in their own unique way.
I would rather say that religion has many times been used by those in power to exploit the people by incurring fear in a way that if they act against the will of the "higher being(s)" they will be severely punished....

[CdocZ]

I would rather say that religion has many times been used by those in power to exploit the people by incurring fear in a way that if they act against the will of the "higher being(s)" they will be severely punished....

That is abuse, just to note :p Just because one person abuses it to control the other believers, or many believers abuse it to justify atrocities, does not change the fact that it is abuse.

My idea on the matter is that Islam and Christianity have a focus on the afterlife. (Especially the radical fundamentalist Muslims - "die and get 40 virgins!"). The problem with this, which is what I love about Judaism (Judaism does not believe in an afterlife - any Jew who believes in one and thinks it is a Jewish thought is referring to when we were exiled among the Babylonians and got a bit assimilated :)), is that Judaism teaches that people should help and perpetuate society, for society's sake, and for your own as a member of society. There is no "do this Mitzvah or you will not go to heaven" kind of mentality.

No, I am not saying that all practicing Christians and Muslims live the way they do just because of what they believe happens after they die. However, that strain of logic is not exactly rare, from what I have both seen and heard on my own/learnt in school.

One of the more "advanced"/complicated issues with this sort of mentality, is that it instantly becomes VERY easy to justify violence/suicide attacks, as the radical movements in Islam have been prone to do as of the past 10-20 years.

EDIT: So as not to single out Islam repeatedly, Christianity had the crimes commited during the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and etc, that were justified because religious leaders, while they understood the pain and strife they often put people in, figured that what they were doing was not just God's will, but what they had to do to go to heaven/be a "good Christian" or whatever the equivalent would be in any other example.

Yes, I am trying to think of Jewish examples where violence was justified because the commiters of violence thought it would send them to heaven, but as mentioned, Judaism does not actually have much of an afterlife (there are various ideas of an 11-month purgatory after one dies, that is as painful as the person was bad during their life, but it depends on who you ask).

[henk4]

That is abuse, just to note :p Just because one person abuses it to control the other believers, or many believers abuse it to justify atrocities, does not change the fact that it is abuse.

My idea on the matter is that Islam and Christianity have a focus on the afterlife.

I was not talking specifically about Islam or Christianity. Animistic religions in primitive societies have shown the same tendencies and even the old Romans had some problems with it.

[CdocZ]

I was not talking specifically about Islam or Christianity. Animistic religions in primitive societies have shown the same tendencies and even the old Romans had some problems with it.

I never said you were - I just try to stick with the examples that I know about :) I am trying to learn about more religions around the world (more about my own too, while I am at it), but there is only so much time in a day. My goal is to, in the 7 months I have before college, to read through the Old Testament/Tanakh, New Testament, and Koran, and if I finish that, perhaps some of the commentary that major religious philosophers/thinkers have come up with in each of the three. Anything after that is too far in the future for me right now, as there is too much I want to do right now :)

[henk4]

One of the more "advanced"/complicated issues with this sort of mentality, is that it instantly becomes VERY easy to justify violence/suicide attacks, as the radical movements in Islam have been prone to do as of the past 10-20 years.


I think the basis for what you describe there was laid on May 15th 1948..

[CdocZ]

I think the basis for what you describe there was laid on May 15th 1948..

First, I am going to just clarify if you are referring to the 100,000+ Palestinian refugees who were displaced right as/after Israel was created?

1. That was not with suicidal intent, unless they knew the "war" would last past even today.
2. A lot of the Israeli government was busy first off with dealing with founding their own country in the first place, and second, there was a belief (how widespread, I am not sure, but there WERE multiple major government officials who acted on this belief) that the neighboring Arabic countries (Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan in particular) would take in many of the Palestinian refugees. That this was not done by EITHER side, is where a problem comes in.

One of the things I find sad is similar to the social/political infighting among Jews today - These Arabic countries said they were fighting for religious+political reasons, but would not, as the teachings of Islam say they should, take in a fellow believer in need of help. I am not saying that it is all their fault, as they WERE indeed displaced, I will not deny it.

An interesting theory that I have heard, that is a little late to try out now, would have been if Yassir Arafat had originally agreed to an "Isra-stine" --> Create a nation that at its essence, was both the home land the Jews have always wanted since the days of exile, but also a state that incorporated the Palestinians not just as "other residents", but as integrated with their Jewish counterparts, and therefore a displacement would not have been able to go through. I understand, that this would have depended on a will to survive and work together that perhaps did not exist at that point, but it is still a theory to be considered.

EDIT: I realized I answered the question with irrelevant information - Sorry. I won't delete what I wrote, but only add to it, as it is still new information to bring to the table, and is relevant to my new answer :)

Both the Jews AND the Palestinians needed an official homeland of their own. There WAS a very noticable presence of Jews in the Mandate of Palestine (called Sabra's), and hundreds upon thousands who wanted to immigrate to a Jewish homeland to escape persecution and anti-Semitism. Here is where the "Isra-stine" theory can still come into play.

[henk4]

I merely wanted to state a fact. Not to point the finger at anyone.

[CdocZ]

I merely wanted to state a fact. Not to point the finger at anyone.

Entirely acceptable :) There needs to be more of this, I say.

[roosterjuicer]

exactly, ur right its one of those the bad counts a lot more then the good. it's a shame

unfortunately that is very true. thats why they call moderates the "silent majority".

bad news always has better ratings then good news.

[roosterjuicer]

Abortion or homosexuality are subjects that come to mind ...

here's the million dollar question...would people still be against abortion or homosexuality if there was no religion whatsoever or if the religions werent against them?

my take=
abortion-yes
homosexuality-no/maybe

[nota]

1947 (http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html)

[Gt1Street]

I vote yes on both cases.
Regarding homosexuality, as long as it makes a person happy and does not hurt the other party its should be allowed.
And regarding abortion, exactly in the same way conception is a decision so is this.

[henk4]

I vote yes on both cases.
Regarding homosexuality, as long as it makes a person happy and does not hurt the other party its should be allowed.
And regarding abortion, exactly in the same way conception is a decision so is this.

I think you mean to say that you vote "no" in both cases

[CdocZ]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Israel-Palestinians.html?hp

Israel and Hamas have reached an informal cease fire, and progress in the peace talks (which Egypt is mediating) is being made :)

Israel at first stopped air strikes and similar attacks, and the rocket fire Hamas has been using has dropped to ~2 a day (as opposed to 12 a day before this weekend).

Furthermore, as stated in the article, Olmert declares that the peace talks with the Palestinian government WILL continue, even if there is more violence by various smaller groups in the area.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I think we're all looking at this the wrong way.

It's not an Increase in hostility at all, what we've had was a lull in hostility, which has now, unfortunately ended.

And if I'm being honest, I'm not smart enough to think of a solution thats going to please everyone - and I don't think i'm alone in that.

In order for this situation to be solved, someone has to be pissed off. At the moment those who are pissed off are blowing others away and themselves up, which, I think we all agree, doesn't have the desired effect.

[CdocZ]

True, there was a very long lull in suicide bombings, but there still were a good dozen rockets a day fired at places like Sderot, so the "lull" was relative.

There was a very sharp increase in violence and hostility, even if brief. And considering the remarks each side was making, it looked like both were pledging to give everything they had to win (Israel saying it would make much more frequent, "looser" attacks into Gaza, and Hamas saying they would stand up to fight more than before).

What is good and likely WILL have the desired effects, is that 1. the Israeli government is trying to make peace with the official Palestinian government despite everything with militants in the area, and 2. Hamas is realizing that blowing people up with bombs and/or rockets repeatedly, is only hurting their cause and their people, and they probably suffered greatly from the recent major move by the Israeli army into Gaza. What is even MORE important, is that Israel showed it could trust Hamas by standing down earlier then Hamas did, and on the other side Hamas showed they were also trustworthy in that they DID fulfill their part of the informal cease-fire.

To summarize the above paragraph with something that might actually make more sense then a sleep deprived 19 year old, it looks like both sides are standing down to make room for peace, which is a desirable path towards a desirable effect :)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I agree - the only way anything will be sorted out in the region is for both sides to acknowledge there parts in the process and make strides to better each others current position.

However, looking at the regions history, old habits (and grudges) die hard.

[CdocZ]

True, but think of it this way, too: Habits may leave when it's generation dies out. It takes time, but hey, it is easier to make an impression on the son of the rebel, than the rebel (usually).