What's your religion? [Archive] - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

Coventrysucks

05-04-2004, 02:21 PM

im half jewish and half catholic. so i celebrate holidays for both religions. its awesome. ur bold touching a subject most consider 2 politicaly incorrect to ask people in forums like this

How does that work?
I thought the whole believing in the ressurection of Jesus/ Catholic thing would have made being Jewish impossible.

"...if genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible, and is believed to read:
'To my darling Candy. All characters in this book are ficticious and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.'
The page has universally been condemned by Church leaders." (Red Dwarf: Series 2, Episode 2 "Better than life") ;)

Religion has some good points:
Love one another, be nice in general, that sort of stuff

and some bad ones:
If anyone doesn't do exactly what this book says, kill them, forgetting all about forgiveness, and love thy neighbour, just get smiting quick!

Personally, I try to stay clear of it as much as possible. :)

SPHFerrari

05-04-2004, 02:26 PM

me being half and half has nothing 2 do with what i beleive. im not religious at all. but my moms jewish and ma dads catholic

Coventrysucks

05-04-2004, 04:01 PM

My misunderstanding. :)

DasModell

05-04-2004, 04:14 PM

theoretic ... i'm christian .. now .. i'm nothing .. haven't feel the need to really be an active member :)

Misho

05-04-2004, 05:10 PM

Arabic is a language. Islam is a relegion. Arabic is the main language of Islam.

I assumed u got the 2 mixed up and based on that I voted Arabic.

carlover

05-04-2004, 05:46 PM

Half and half, my dads jewish and my moms christian, but we're probaly the least religious family in the world... :)

GT500

05-04-2004, 05:46 PM

Atheist: There is no God.

ace

05-04-2004, 05:57 PM

atheist

werty

05-04-2004, 06:02 PM

Atheist: There is no God.
how do you know there is no God,
if you truly beleive this then, where are we from
if there is no god, what is after death?
where ever you are right now, look around, look at yourself in the mirror, do you truly beleive you came from nothing
i want to understand how you can truly believe there is no intelligent design in the structure and functions of your body

SPHFerrari

05-04-2004, 06:10 PM

now i do beleive there could be a god, but my answer to every 1 of ur questions wold be: evolution

Misho

05-04-2004, 06:15 PM

What did we Evolve from and where did it come from ?

SPHFerrari

05-04-2004, 06:17 PM

monkies silly :D . and a lot of stuff before that and if i felt like it i could explain wat started it all but its bound to involve large words like hydrogen and atmosphere so ull have to speculate

werty

05-04-2004, 06:22 PM

What did we Evolve from and where did it come from ?
This is where i must express my opinion

We did not evolve, God created us, but what you all must understand is God is not the same person for every religion. There is only one God. Did you know that the Bible(NIV) has not a single contradiction to itself.

All those other religions including-Islam, Hinduism, all others) contradict themselves

werty

05-04-2004, 06:24 PM

now i do beleive there could be a god, but my answer to every 1 of ur questions wold be: evolution

if you can beleive there is a God, you know that evolution is not valid, and you beleive in God you must understand that he sent his son to die for you so that you may join with him in heaven forever

werty

05-04-2004, 06:31 PM

atheist
if you are athiest you beleive there is no right or wrong, because there is no god and you say that men determine what is right or wrong, so what is it that makes men determine what is right or wrong?

GT500

05-04-2004, 08:59 PM

Everyone is entitled to believe what they think, werty (love typing that). And yes, I woudl say we evolved from prokayotes billions of years ago that were able to survive on the Calvin Cycle, and over those billion sof years, evolved slowly. I support the punctuated equilibrium theory. I just can't believe all these religious sotires about how everything was created, imo, it's all fake. There is no God, science and evolution expresses my opinion. Although not all evidence has been found, i believe evolution created everything eventually. What everything evolved from and who put it there? That is the question.

Werty, there is no need to start throwing questions and starting heated discussions on this topic, it's all up to what you think is right, and what works for you. :)

EDIT: How do all those other religions contradict each other? I know, for one, that Hinduism does not contradict itself. Basically you are saying Christianity is the only perfect religion that doesn't contradict itself. That statement insults all people who happen to be of those religions stated, and I, for one, don't think that this forum should start arguing over such things. Everything you've argued with is according to Christianity, what if you don't believe in Christianity? That makes it invalid.
IMO, there is no afterlife, you live and die, then who knows what happens? No one. There is no proof of heaven or afterlife, or coming back to life as another animal. Do deer say "I was a human in my last life"? No, either because they cannot remember, or they never were a human in their past life, that is if you believe in another life after death.

And, who bloody well gives a care? We're here, let's worry about the present, not things that cannot be explained. IMO, screw all this, it's just there to distract people. I think we should worry about our own lives and those who live with us today (not spirits or w/e mind you). The distant future can wait, right now, we all have other things to tend to.

iamME

05-04-2004, 09:31 PM

generally don't think about it...
agnostic probs...
definately not atheist though, denial proves existance...

The Tuner

05-04-2004, 09:36 PM

im a shi'ite muslim, and im proud of it.

btw, werty, who told u islam condradicts itself in its belief of god? it doesnt. and if u think it does, could u plz share ure views here...?

Egg Nog

05-04-2004, 09:40 PM

Athiest...

When it comes to religion, just bear in mind that most every religious group is just as steadfast in what they believe as any other.

Let's not start any flame wars...i'm glad to see that none have started so far. :)

junaman

05-04-2004, 10:39 PM

I'm Jewish

Spastik_Roach

05-04-2004, 10:43 PM

I'm a Sarcastic :D

crisis

05-04-2004, 11:52 PM

Atheist: There is no God.
Do you realsie saying your atheist and there is no god is actually just as dogmatic or fundametalist than beleiving in one. Religious people stake great credibility of scriptures written thousands of years ago by cultures very different from us, to say the least. Nevertheless, they have something
on which to base a belief. Being an atheist is saying you actively dis believe in something that you can in no way disprove despite the alternative you prescribe to. So it is as blind a religion , itself as any other.
An agnostic is basically someone who remains unconvinced, like myself.
Basically there are too many different religions and denomintions of them for me to logically see how one is right and the rest are wrong. Mind you I struggle with evolution to the same extent. How one species/mutation of an ancient life form can survive as the only path for that form to take does not make sense (much, I imagine, like that statement). There, that shouldnt be too controversial. Had a go at everyone.

crisis

05-04-2004, 11:53 PM

how do you know there is no God,
if you truly beleive this then, where are we from
if there is no god, what is after death?
where ever you are right now, look around, look at yourself in the mirror, do you truly beleive you came from nothing
i want to understand how you can truly believe there is no intelligent design in the structure and functions of your body
That should help get the thread going!

ZerK

05-04-2004, 11:53 PM

I'm a Christian. And a creationist.

fordfan2

05-05-2004, 12:30 AM

Catholic

IBrake4Rainbows

05-05-2004, 12:36 AM

I go to a Catholic School, but i've yet to make up my mind.

I find it amazing that people choose to pray so often to what may not be there. I guess they call it faith, but they must have had a lot of time back in the old days, they invented religions, we invent forum topics.......

i quite admire the Buddhist teachings of equality and what goes around coming around, but i don't think i could live without meat.

Islam requires too much from me, no offence to any who follow it, but i am not prepared to sacrifice so much.

Same for Christianity, i'd like to sleep in on a sunday, thanks.

And i like Sweet and Sour Pork, so that's Judaism gone......

Well, i'm spoilt for choice here.....

fordfan2

05-05-2004, 12:41 AM

What i dont get about those type of religions who dont let us eat certain types of things is seeing as it was watever religous leader who created the world why would they create it in the first place lol neways just another wierd things about religions. I'm in the same boat as ibrake4rainbows as i go to a catholic skewl and i am i catholic but i dont go to church on sunday or ever and i dont pray sooooooo :eek:

crisis

05-05-2004, 12:45 AM

LOL
What i dont get about those type of religions who dont let us eat certain types of things is seeing as it was watever religous leader who created the world why would they create it in the first place lol neways just another wierd things about religions. I'm in the same boat as ibrake4rainbows as i go to a catholic skewl and i am i catholic but i dont go to church on sunday or ever and i dont pray sooooooo :eek:
I got lost at the end of your post but I agree with the food issue. Most of these things are no more than traditions that find theri way into religions due to some individual or individuals whim. That they can make wholesale changes when it suits a particular church seems to trivialise their initial importance.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 02:51 AM

I got lost at the end of your post but I agree with the food issue. Most of these things are no more than traditions that find theri way into religions due to some individual or individuals whim. That they can make wholesale changes when it suits a particular church seems to trivialise their initial importance.
or trivialises the particular faction making that break :)

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 02:53 AM

I'm a Christian. And a creationist.
As a creationist confirm something for me please ...

Does a creationist believe in 7 days and the order as written in the bible ?

Or is it sufficient to belive that in some way man WAS created ( possibly through evolution guided by a higher power )

Alwyas wonderd ( I'm in the latter belief camp but don't consider myself "creationist" )

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 03:04 AM

Mind you I struggle with evolution to the same extent. How one species/mutation of an ancient life form can survive as the only path for that form to take does not make sense (much, I imagine, like that statement). There, that shouldnt be too controversial. Had a go at everyone.
Speding 2 years at universiaty sharing a flat with a guy studying natural philosphy we went over this from many angles - soem of the best over a bottle of whisky when we KNEW we had found the real answer. Unfortunately by the time the hangover receeded we'd forgotten it :)

ANyway, it is difficult to grasp as you are looking BACK at an evolutionary path and trying to find reason for the final beast ( us or any other ).

Think of it as a step on the path and ONLY consider the issues AT THE TIME.
So fish came onto the land because for millions of generations of fish there were those which fed at the dhoreline and would be trapped as the tide receeded. So those who could absorb air in some very small part in their gills survived when the tide returned and now THAT genetic trait is carried forward to the next generation. So VERY slowly a fish species evolves whose gills are adapting with each few millinia to "breath" air as well as water ( that being the gills could absorb oxygen from air as well as water ) The classic Darwinian "survival of the fittest".

If you try to explain that from a human perspective at the THIS end of the evolutionary chain and ask WHY did a fish come out of the sea and try to breath you've got the hard end of the puzzle.

Did that help ??

BTW, there should be NO conflict with Darwin and God despite what has been well-publicised - especially in the US court case !! HOW is a fish gene able to mutate ? Is it following some "rule" - "laws of nature" ? So who decided that those rules apply ? Did he/she/it have man in mind when it started ? Or maybe just an animal evolved enough to be able to grasp the concept of divinity, equality and the shared communcal good.

The best debate I've ever had was with a fundamentalist Christian who had the weirdest conspiracy theory and was adamant the Earth was only about 20,000 years old ( he had an exact number ) and that geologists and scientists were all lying. THAT was scary :)

fpv_gtho

05-05-2004, 03:46 AM

i guess you could call me a non practising christian. since im doing death and new life in religion at school, alot of this stuff is fresh in my mind. pretty much i think alot of people cant grasp the fact there can be a scientific explanation as well as a spiritual reason. everyones familiar with God creating the universe in 7 days, but no where does it say each of those 7 days were 24 hours long or anything, it could have been 7 millenia etc. With that in mind, someone can accept things like the theory of evolution and the big bang theory, although i find it hard to grasp everything around us all originated from one timy atom that one day decided to explode into what is around us today and is still expanding.

something ive been hearing alot lately, is if there is no afterlife, then what is the point of the current life? the 3 major religions (judaism, islam and christianity) all believe in a single God which created all life, and similarly all believe in an afterlife of some form or another. most people think of heaven and Hell as an afterlife, and them being a place, but the Catholic church describes them as a state, like when you feel good you say your in heaven, like that, sorta.

alot of confusion about religions contradicting themselves could come from the protestant side of christianity. if you didnt know already, during the reformation during the 1500's, there was alot of corruption in the catholic church. a guy by the name of Martin Luther made a list of over i think 100 things he thought was wrong about the church, and nailed it to the church in Germany. He is known for starting the protestant religion and compared to the catholic church which based its teachings off scripture, traditions and the magesterium (the progression of the pope's from Jesus' crucufixion and resurection), Protestants only rely on the scriptures. because of this, they are working off about 1/3 the knowledge of the catholic church, so of course there is going to be confusioin about what the scripture says and different interpretations, which has spawned many different protestant churches like baptis, anglican etc.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 04:11 AM

no where does it say each of those 7 days were 24 hours long or anything, it could have been 7 millenia etc.
Another point is that "40 days" also translates into " a long time" in aramaiic.
So all those things in the bible(s) saying 40 days ( flood, desert, plagues ) have other interpretations.

i find it hard to grasp everything around us all originated from one timy atom that one day decided to explode into what is around us today and is still expanding.
Yep, but it wans't an atom :)
it was something and just like "infinity" we have trouble comprehending what they both really are.

something ive been hearing alot lately, is if there is no afterlife, then what is the point of the current life?
what is the point of a fish ?
To an agnostic/atheist it's not an issue just as it is for the fish.

the 3 major religions (judaism, islam and christianity) all believe in a single God which created all life, and similarly all believe in an afterlife of some form or another.
cos they all share a common sub-text.

most people think of heaven and Hell as an afterlife, and them being a place, but the Catholic church describes them as a state, like when you feel good you say your in heaven, like that, sorta.
You should study eastern religions a little to get other views on after-life.

alot of confusion about religions contradicting themselves could come from the protestant side of christianity.
Study the meeting in Nicene in 4th century.
The churches were WAY fragmented all with differeing views of what Christ left each of them to do.
The "Nicene Creed" forms the basis of modern Christianity and was an agreement on what really mattered and didn't. Some churches still held to pre-Nicene beliefs.

compared to the catholic church which based its teachings off scripture, traditions and the magesterium (the progression of the pope's from Jesus' crucufixion and resurection), Protestants only rely on the scriptures. because of this, they are working off about 1/3 the knowledge of the catholic church,
Would you be getting taught this in a Catholic school perhaps ?
it's wrong, the scripture and traditions are common with minor exceptions and those form 99% of Christianity. The only issues are the Pope and the role of saints. These are a minor difference and form the basis of the oming together of the Christian churches over the more enlightened last few decades.
Suggesting the Papal Legacy is 1/3 of the church even he would have conerns about :)

so of course there is going to be confusioin about what the scripture says and different interpretations, which has spawned many different protestant churches like baptis, anglican etc.
Some of these differences date back to those discussion in Nicea.
Anglican is a nationalistic thing to when the King was NOT going to have the Pope rule over him so split.

ace

05-05-2004, 05:06 AM

if you are athiest you beleive there is no right or wrong, because there is no god and you say that men determine what is right or wrong, so what is it that makes men determine what is right or wrong?
Mate do you think men are doing such a good job of determining right from wrong in the world right now? As far as me being an atheist that just means that I don't believe in a holly creator that made all things in 6 days. I do believe a lot of the story's in the Bible where based on events that actually may have happed but seem to me have bin exaggerated.
And as far as me not beleiving in right and wrong just because i dont believe in GOD, my DOG knows right from wrong so why wouldnt I.

fpv_gtho

05-05-2004, 05:22 AM

Another point is that "40 days" also translates into " a long time" in aramaiic.
So all those things in the bible(s) saying 40 days ( flood, desert, plagues ) have other interpretations.

Yep, but it wans't an atom :)
it was something and just like "infinity" we have trouble comprehending what they both really are.

what is the point of a fish ?
To an agnostic/atheist it's not an issue just as it is for the fish.

cos they all share a common sub-text.

You should study eastern religions a little to get other views on after-life.

Study the meeting in Nicene in 4th century.
The churches were WAY fragmented all with differeing views of what Christ left each of them to do.
The "Nicene Creed" forms the basis of modern Christianity and was an agreement on what really mattered and didn't. Some churches still held to pre-Nicene beliefs.

Would you be getting taught this in a Catholic school perhaps ?
it's wrong, the scripture and traditions are common with minor exceptions and those form 99% of Christianity. The only issues are the Pope and the role of saints. These are a minor difference and form the basis of the oming together of the Christian churches over the more enlightened last few decades.
Suggesting the Papal Legacy is 1/3 of the church even he would have conerns about :)

Some of these differences date back to those discussion in Nicea.
Anglican is a nationalistic thing to when the King was NOT going to have the Pope rule over him so split.

right now, yes i am at a catholic school, so of course im being taught somewhat of a bias towards catholic over protestant. different people will see it all from a diferent angle which is all understandable. religion is such a vast and important topic (to some) that there are many ways around things i suppose. it probably was a bit too much of a generalisation saying protestants have 1/3 the references to catholics, but in a way its true as catholics hold the scripture, traditions and magesterium all equally, none more important than the other.

Coventrysucks

05-05-2004, 05:47 AM

If there is an afterlife, what is the point of this life?
Why don't we all go straight to heaven, that way everyone would be happy, because they wouldn't have had a chance to sin, therefore everyone gets in. ;)

I hate the notion that this life is some sort of "test" to see if you are worthy enough to join whatever God you choose. I know what is right and wrong, and I don't want other people telling me how I should live.

If there was a God, all the religions would believe in that single God, however, there are so many variations on a theme that I fail to see how it could be true.
Why would a God encourage people to fight by telling the one religion to do things one way, and another to do the same things differently.

And you can't just blow off evolution. It is still happening in the world today, people have evolved to become stronger and taller even in the last 50 years, has God been making these gradual changes?
Why did he not just make us all tall and strong in the first place?
After all, he doesn't make mistakes does he?

If people are evolving on their own, without any divine intervention, it makes it much more plausable that every species has evolved from a common origin.
The fact that all of the vertibrates; mammals, fish, reptiles, amphibians and birds have all the same major organs and skeletal structure indicates that they have descended from a common ancestor, or that God was very unoriginal when he was creating life.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 06:40 AM

And you can't just blow off evolution. It is still happening in the world today, people have evolved to become stronger and taller even in the last 50 years,
Sorry coventry, but the reason we're bigger in the last 50 years is nutrition.
NOT evolution.
Only fruit flies can make genetic alterations that quickly.
We've too long a lifespan, thankfully :)

has God been making these gradual changes?
Why did he not just make us all tall and strong in the first place?
Why should he ?
Perhaps it's the lesson of evolving to a better species that is the reason we have challenges !
HE threw us out becuase we coldnt' behave remember.
We did have it all.
BTW, I'm not a "man in garden of eden" believer, but I do think there was an existance before the universe and their will be after for our 'life energy' :)

If people are evolving on their own, without any divine intervention, it makes it much more plausable that every species has evolved from a common origin.
The fact that all of the vertibrates; mammals, fish, reptiles, amphibians and birds have all the same major organs and skeletal structure indicates that they have descended from a common ancestor, or that God was very unoriginal when he was creating life.
Poorest argument against divine intervention I've seen for years :)
Is the Lotus Elise unoriginal because it uses 10 and 12mm bolts to hodl the engine together ?
Of course not, because those are the obvious things to use.
Ditto living creatures :)

If God were to be as you ask/expect him then we would have no role or need to be here at all. We clearly are, so it's not that simple !!

NoOne

05-05-2004, 07:12 AM

I am an agnostic

I was raised Roman Catholic but started asking myself questions that couldn't be answered from a religious standpoint, I feel no need for any organized religion in my life. At one time I felt myself an atheist, but I found that even more difficult to comprehend than trying to follow a set religion.

From my "pseudo-atheists" days:

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer gods than you. When you understand why you forsake all other gods, then you will understand why I forsake yours. ;)

werty

05-05-2004, 08:51 AM

Mate do you think men are doing such a good job of determining right from wrong in the world right now? As far as me being an atheist that just means that I don't believe in a holly creator that made all things in 6 days. I do believe a lot of the story's in the Bible where based on events that actually may have happed but seem to me have bin exaggerated.
And as far as me not beleiving in right and wrong just because i dont believe in GOD, my DOG knows right from wrong so why wouldnt I.

The question you should be asking yourself is, what is it thats gives me and my dog the knowledge to know what is right or wrong.

ZerK

05-05-2004, 09:17 AM

Does a creationist believe in 7 days and the order as written in the bible ?

Or is it sufficient to belive that in some way man WAS created ( possibly through evolution guided by a higher power )

Alwyas wonderd ( I'm in the latter belief camp but don't consider myself "creationist" )

Well, six days, but yes. On the seventh day, God rested. God is outside of time, so a day to Him could be a second, and it could be a million years. There also could be a huge time between each 'day'. Kinda hard to get yer head round :eek:

I won't count for all the creationists out there, as opinions vary plenty.

www.answersingenesis.org may be of interest to you.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 09:31 AM

Well, six days, but yes. On the seventh day, God rested. God is outside of time, so a day to Him could be a second, and it could be a million years. There also could be a huge time between each 'day'. Kinda hard to get yer head round :eek:
it was the order thing plants - animals - man that I was wondering. When we know we have animals which "arrived" after some plants.

www.answersingenesis.org may be of interest to you.
I do my best not to dis anyone's religion, but is that site/book serious ?
I read one article which said they did a "test" and put a typewriter in a monkey cage in a zoo and not a single word of Shakespeare was typed so all those evolutionsists who had ever repeated Hunxley's famous "given enough time, monkeys typing randomly could eventually type out the complete works of Shakespeare" were obviously wrong in all their beliefs.
Man, it's that kind of non-thinking which scares me away from some organised religions :)
Please reassure me that that is a spoof

ZerK

05-05-2004, 10:11 AM

it was the order thing plants - animals - man that I was wondering. When we know we have animals which "arrived" after some plants.

I do my best not to dis anyone's religion, but is that site/book serious ?
I read one article which said they did a "test" and put a typewriter in a monkey cage in a zoo and not a single word of Shakespeare was typed so all those evolutionsists who had ever repeated Hunxley's famous "given enough time, monkeys typing randomly could eventually type out the complete works of Shakespeare" were obviously wrong in all their beliefs.
Man, it's that kind of non-thinking which scares me away from some organised religions :)
Please reassure me that that is a spoof

Oh sorry, misunderstood. Well I can't speak for all creationists, but I belive it was all as Genesis said. The Bible doesn't lie :)

Yes, I think it's attempting to point out the sheer wonkyness of some stuff evolutionists come out with. The whole idea that information can rise from chaos (the typewriter and the monkey thing) is just stupid in my opinion.

Coventrysucks

05-05-2004, 10:26 AM

Sorry coventry, but the reason we're bigger in the last 50 years is nutrition.
NOT evolution.

True, but...

Surely the minute differences in your DNA that occur whenever a new person is created, making them totally unique, by its very definition is an evolution of something that has gone before?

Evolution is a very gradual process, and therefore every new member of a species must be an evolution at a very minor level, otherwise the process wouldn't occur in the first place, and life would still be limited to the one species of bacteria.

The changes are very minute, but I think that there would be some very minor evolutionary changes that have occured to humans in the recent past.

Has the human digestive system not eveloved to cope with our improved diet?

Poorest argument against divine intervention I've seen for years :)
Is the Lotus Elise unoriginal because it uses 10 and 12mm bolts to hold the engine together ?
Of course not, because those are the obvious things to use.
Ditto living creatures :)

Really?

Using you analagy, although it isn't the best for this purpose, lets look at the car:
The first cars were created by man, obviously, because they aren't alive.
Man designed the car, as God designed man, and all the other creatures.
According to what you say, all cars should use the same basic mechanics, as all of the vertibrates have the same basic internals.

But what about rotary engines, engines that run on compressed air, hybrid electric motors, gas turbines, cvt gearboxes, automatic gearboxes, drive by wire?
Man has designed many different new and different ways of powering a car, with completely new concepts behind some of them.

So, if God designed all the animals, and us in his image, how come we can be so more imaginative? :)

Why are there no species of birds with some other system instead of the normal heart and lungs, that can breath the much more abundant nitrogen, and therefore be better suited to flying through the air?

If you argue that it has taken man nearly 100 years to come up with any major changes in the fundamental design of the car, I can argue that God has had several million years to have a go.

I saw a website that tried to prove evolution didn't exist, saying things like the way a Pandas hand can hold things without getting carpal tunnel syndrome must have been designed.
Alternatively, the Pandas which did get carpal tunnel syndrome found it too difficult to grip bamboo and eat, became weak and died, leaving the Pandas who were resistant to carry on reproducing.

You can't argue against evolution, thre is just too much of it about. ;)

Bill Bryson's "History of nearly everything" does point out the incredible run of luck that life has had, from the planet being in just the right place, to the fact that the next ice age seems to be 2000 years overdue, and everything else inbetween, but I still find it more plausable than saying "God did it."

Rijoh

05-05-2004, 10:31 AM

The Ferrari F50 is my God....

Misho

05-05-2004, 10:35 AM

All those other religions including-Islam, Hinduism, all others) contradict themselves

this is a very bold statement. it is also terribly wrong. if u are going to post such remarks in a highly sensitive and serious topic, please try to have some sort of reasoning or proof.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 11:04 AM

The whole idea that information can rise from chaos (the typewriter and the monkey thing) is just stupid in my opinion.
When you do some advanced statistics and number theory then you will see the point.
It IS possible, very very unlikely but if you have enough and wait long enough anything not outside the laws of physics can happen.
The issue I had with it was the we did it with a group of monkeys for a month and it didn't happen so it never will. THAT is foolish logic.

If you break a car race down into the grouping of individual atoms in a car and try to rationalise that Schumacher will win a race you'd get lots of people saying it was impossible. Thre are things which drive mass events forward. I call it divine influence and so no theological problem :)

Anyone who takes the bible as absolute word needs to read the acts around the Nicean creed and the historical context. Makes a Ford motor company and union meeting seem like a garden party !! Also worth researching why scholars decided which writing would and wouldn't make it into the "official" bible. Ever wondered why there is so little of Jesus between baby and man ? Because someof the texts for that period carried knowledge which our leaders decided were inappropriate for the message THEY wanted the church to have.

So taking the book as infallible takes a LONG stretch of acceptance that the roles of all contributors were truly divine and not influenced by needs of the times and the church.

Worth a wider research ( I was lucky I shared a flat with a natural philosopher and was similar religious upbringing as myself and so we discussed researched and debated it at length. Local priest was a regular visitor - all credit to him. Flatmate's the only guy I've known Jehovah's Witnesses NOT want to talk to :)

<AAA-MOD>

05-05-2004, 11:12 AM

real quick reply, with no arguments or other comments to follow:

atheist, science is all that makes sense to me.

sidenote, little joke:

What do you get when you cross an agnostic, a dislexic, and an insomniac?

someone who lies awake in bed all night wondering if there really is a dog.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 11:22 AM

Surely the minute differences in your DNA that occur whenever a new person is created, making them totally unique, by its very definition is an evolution of something that has gone before?
Well you need ONE generation to have the single dna change.
THEN the next generation has to inter brred AND the new genetic trait has to be dominant.
THEN that generation has to inter breed and produce enough population to make an impact on the species.
10s of thousands of years mate :)

Evolution is a very gradual process, and therefore every new member of a species must be an evolution at a very minor level, otherwise the process wouldn't occur in the first place, and life would still be limited to the one species of bacteria.
Not how evolution works.
An alteration at a genetic level to be evolution has to be carrid in a dominant gene or it will not be passed on.

The changes are very minute, but I think that there would be some very minor evolutionary changes that have occured to humans in the recent past.
SImple test, were there 6' tall, healthy strapping people 1000 years ago ?
Yes of course there was, they were the "gentry", the top of the political ladder the leaders. There wern't a lot of them, ut they were there.
So genetically we always had that capacity and nutrition limited us.
The big concern for short term is the HIGH risk of genetic mutation surviving and being passed on. We have more people suffering eg. asthma with each geneartion. One suggestion is it is pollution, others that it is better doctors to identify and treat and another is that we are altering our species development by treating diseases which in the past would have limited our chances of survival and marriage and passing it on.

Has the human digestive system not eveloved to cope with our improved diet?
No evidence as far as I'm aware that isn't swamped by the adaptability of the digestive system.
Janenese historically had very few colon cancer and more throat. A situation which is inverted in western meat-eating society. In the last 50 years the Japanese have grown in size AND have swapped cancer rates !!
THAT is not evolution, that is adaptation. 2 entirely different acts.

Why are there no species of birds with some other system instead of the normal heart and lungs, that can breath the much more abundant nitrogen, and therefore be better suited to flying through the air?
because we classify what animals are by their major functions.
So if it has a heart and lungs and flies it's a bird.
Flies are different - and yet both breat air and fly.
You are trying to make MANs grouping some systematic act of nature.
It's not, WE group them.

I saw a website that tried to prove evolution didn't exist, saying things like the way a Pandas hand can hold things without getting carpal tunnel syndrome must have been designed.
Alternatively, the Pandas which did get carpal tunnel syndrome found it too difficult to grip bamboo and eat, became weak and died, leaving the Pandas who were resistant to carry on reproducing.
You've got evolution wrong again I'm afraid.
For those subsequent Panda's to have EVOLVED then there would be none or very few Pandas born susceptaible to Carpal Tunnel.
It's not evolution to say the ones that suffer die, it would be evolution when you can identify a class of Panda which NEVER gets CTS.
Man is not a fish because we no longer breath with gills.

You can't argue against evolution, thre is just too much of it about. ;)
Never have argued against evolution.
I do point out inaccuracies on what evolution is and isn't in light of some crazy theories with NO scientific background - like the monkeys test in the zoo !

Bill Bryson's "History of nearly everything" does point out the incredible run of luck that life has had, from the planet being in just the right place, to the fact that the next ice age seems to be 2000 years overdue, and everything else inbetween,
Forgets the billions of suns and billions of planets with billions of "accidents" going on all the time since the universe formed.
The only lucky part is that Bryson is on this line and able to get a book published :)

but I still find it more plausable than saying "God did it."
and it probably always will be to us until we evolve an intelligence capable of comprehending infinity, spirit etc :)

NoOne

05-05-2004, 11:33 AM

but I belive it was all as Genesis said. The Bible doesn't lie :)

But evidently it contradicts itself ...IMHO

Here's a good read ... (if you dare ;) j/k)

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Just a few pages will make you think, I'm not knocking religion ... on any level. I believe "live and let live", "to each his own", etc. :)

Mustang

05-05-2004, 01:23 PM

Im christian but i too dont believe in anything ( to do with god) :)

ace

05-05-2004, 05:13 PM

The question you should be asking yourself is, what is it thats gives me and my dog the knowledge to know what is right or wrong.
Ok the dog one is simple under human protection the dog simply does what is required of him or he gets in trouble, in the wild he also lives in a society he does what’s required or he gets bashed up. We as humans are taught, trained right from wrong from birth, and live under a set of rules many of witch are religious and don’t worry I think they have some good points, I just don’t believe there divinely inspired. I think religions where organized by men to control society I mean just have a look around you got men controlled by religions blowing themselves up with the promise of going to heaven and a one off payment to there families. Look at the pain and suffering in the world and the Catholic Church is in the top 3 largest landholders in the world I’ve got a friend in one Church that demands ¼ of his pay every week or he will go to HELL and the priest drives around in a new BMW (bmw’s are a big deal in AUS) every year. God ether f____n hates us or was never there

crisis

05-05-2004, 05:47 PM

[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]Speding 2 years at universiaty sharing a flat with a guy studying natural philosphy we went over this from many angles - soem of the best over a bottle of whisky when we KNEW we had found the real answer. Unfortunately by the time the hangover receeded we'd forgotten it :)

ANyway, it is difficult to grasp as you are looking BACK at an evolutionary path and trying to find reason for the final beast ( us or any other ).

Think of it as a step on the path and ONLY consider the issues AT THE TIME.
So fish came onto the land because for millions of generations of fish there were those which fed at the dhoreline and would be trapped as the tide receeded. So those who could absorb air in some very small part in their gills survived when the tide returned and now THAT genetic trait is carried forward to the next generation. So VERY slowly a fish species evolves whose gills are adapting with each few millinia to "breath" air as well as water ( that being the gills could absorb oxygen from air as well as water ) The classic Darwinian "survival of the fittest".

If you try to explain that from a human perspective at the THIS end of the evolutionary chain and ask WHY did a fish come out of the sea and try to breath you've got the hard end of the puzzle.

Did that help ??

QUOTE]
No. Im talking about the 1000s of different fish species or insects or whatever that all live in the same environment. Why so many and how can highly specialised animals evolve into whta they are. For instance an angler fish with the luminous appendage over its mouth. We've all seen Nemo havent we? How does this evolve , over millions of years and why, when other fish exist along side it without it. Did it start with a candle until it invented electric light. Nature shows that concentrate on amazing specialisation of certain animals make it harder for me to accept the current theory of evolution without question.

crisis

05-05-2004, 05:50 PM

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer gods than you. When you understand why you forsake all other gods, then you will understand why I forsake yours. ;)
Great quote. Mind if I use some time?

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 06:18 PM

No. Im talking about the 1000s of different fish species or insects or whatever that all live in the same environment. Why so many
Because evolution is genetic mutation over millions of generations so more than one of these proves viable. As long as their is no over-crowding and plenty of resources they will all survive.

and how can highly specialised animals evolve into whta they are. For instance an angler fish with the luminous appendage over its mouth. We've all seen Nemo havent we? How does this evolve , over millions of years and why, when other fish exist along side it without it. Did it start with a candle until it invented electric light. Nature shows that concentrate on amazing specialisation of certain animals make it harder for me to accept the current theory of evolution without question.
I think because you are looking for purpose in the evolution.
THAT isn't how it works,
A species doesn't set out to evolve another skill or attribute.
The evolutionary change either works or it doesn't.
If we were able to see rather than just imagne ALL the species which had a mutation which died at birth or shortly after as it was incompatible with the environment then it would be easier to grasp. Imagine that for every one evolutionary change which works there are millions/billions of others which don't ! It can make it easier to comprehend evolutionary 'drive'.
Specific specialisations jsut show an amazing evolution which we can grasp if we conjecture the millions of steps to that point. Start with luminosity, it occurs in many species. It could have only been a slight glimmer to start with and internal on the body but it gve a feeding advantage. So the fish that get more food are those that are brighter. So that genetic trait becomes top of the food chain for the species. Then those where it is closer to the surface 'survive' in greater numbers because it is a better attractant. Then the growth of an appendage or concentration of light cells in an appendage can become dominant as they are still a goo d attractor but now have the advantage that the 'food' - other fish - can't recognise the mmouth and shape of the predatory fish.
Then that appendage becomes longer as that trait becomes a factor in getting more food and dominant. Dominant animals mate more, so the trait spreads. Soon ( in universasl timeline ) you have an angler fish.
You use candles and electric light as if it has relevance to the fish. First it's luminsoity, nothing to do with mans creations and secondly the fish don't decide to come up with it. That would be adaptation, not evolution. We have accelerated skills OUTSIDE our bodies through our excellent adaptation, learning and manipulation skills

crisis

05-05-2004, 06:23 PM

How did an organ as complex as the human brain evolve from a single cell? Or a kidney or any organ. They are fairly complicated accidents.

GT500

05-05-2004, 06:44 PM

Homem de Gelo

05-05-2004, 06:45 PM

I'm Baptist.
My questions haven't all been answered, but I'm happy with the path I'm on.

Matra et Alpine

05-05-2004, 06:49 PM

How did an organ as complex as the human brain evolve from a single cell? Or a kidney or any organ. They are fairly complicated accidents.
Beacuse you're trying to simplify it into 2 steps.
Thre were more steps than grains of sand on the planet.
A single cell became 2, then more.
Specialisation then started with perhaps intake and excretion of simple nutrients ( I'm just conjecturing those for poitn of illumination )
Then those specilised cells become larger as it has an advatnage. Then they become grouped. Then they become identifiable as single organ.

Similarly the brain.
The slearest evolutionary step which made primates top of the tree wwas the folding of the brain to increase capcity.
Then human evolved an increased frontal lobe.
Call this last part divine intervention if you want or maybe it is ALL divine and the lobes were a natural benefit allowing ius to organise and share for success.
BTW, do you know there is a part of the brain now identified as the "root of religion" ? Research shows activity in this area with people who have religious experiences. Don't know if the opposite is confirmed as additional proof - ie those with no abnormal activity in the are NOT religious. So is THAT evolutionary ( atheists will argue yes ) or divine addition ?? Good discussion point. What are the evolutionary benefits of having a religion ??

crisis

05-05-2004, 06:50 PM

^^evolution contains literally hundreds and hundreds of theories. Religion just screws with my mind imo. I think that someone came up with the idea one day and spread it around. Really, that's what I think it is: some crazy invention designed to make you believe a certain way. No flaming this plz.
Now for all of you who keep saying im wrong: TO ME THERE IS NO GOD. :)
I think it is an invention to make people feel comfortable with their mortality and to make them feel as if there is a reason to life, the universe and everything. I dont there has to be a reason for it.

werty

05-05-2004, 09:05 PM

fpv_gtho

05-05-2004, 09:16 PM

If you beleive there is no God, then when you are dying, you had better be right, because if you don't have a relationship with Christ, you are condemned to eternity in hell. :(

im going to have to disagree there, anyone who lives there life doing good rather than evil, living from the good inside themselves has a spot in heaven.

GT500

05-05-2004, 09:55 PM

GT500

05-05-2004, 09:58 PM

I think it is an invention to make people feel comfortable with their mortality and to make them feel as if there is a reason to life, the universe and everything. I dont there has to be a reason for it.

Wait...im a bit confused here. So you're saying there is no God? You're saying all religions are inventions or what here? :confused:

Egg Nog

05-05-2004, 10:33 PM

Wait...im a bit confused here. So you're saying there is no God? You're saying all religions are inventions or what here? :confused:

That seems to me to be what he is saying. I'm in full agreeance with Crisis here. I was brought up as nothing really, and I'm an atheist by choice.

I'm just surprised that there are such hardcore followers of something so dated. Everyone has the right to their own religion, but I personally completely cannot understand most of them.

megotmea7

05-05-2004, 10:47 PM

"Religion is a bandage created by man to protect a soul made bloody by circumstance" -Theodore Herman Albert Dreiser

great quote, smart man :)

ace

05-06-2004, 12:10 AM

Wishful thinking it is, to beleive there is no God, no supreme being over humans, no right or wrong. If you beleive there is no God then whatever you do is ok, and no one will punish you, except for some cases when humans punish other humans.

If you beleive there is no God, then when you are dying, you had better be right, because if you don't have a relationship with Christ, you are condemned to eternity in hell. :(
IMO its wishful thinking to believe in GOD. It must be nice to believe that this is not all there is, but I just cant make myself believe in something so vague and asks me to just believe with no hard evidence.
I assume you’re a christen, I didn’t catch your religion.
As far as burning in HELL, the Christen religion preaches piece and forgives if there GOD sticks to his teachings know ones going to hell no mater what your beliefs.
By the way my mother is Church of England, my father is a Free Mason and my wife is Catholic good mix yes. Ha.
PS: if I am right, and there is no GOD, than a lot of people have wasted so much of there already short lives worshiping an unseen unproven GOD, its not funny.

crisis

05-06-2004, 12:12 AM

imo heaven doesn't exist.....how funny that I say that!!

I don't believe in Christ. If I don't think there is a Christ,
I think its pretty well document that Christ existed. Whether he was the son of god , was ressurrected etc is the point of contention.

crisis

05-06-2004, 12:16 AM

Wait...im a bit confused here. So you're saying there is no God? You're saying all religions are inventions or what here? :confused:
Im not really saying there is no god. As I stated before, pure atheism is illogical. There is neither enough proof of existence nor any proof on non existence, therefore I would be classed as agnostic. If I see him or meet him , theres your believer. As far as religions go, my opinion is that they are invented to sooth peoples soles. To give them a reason for existence and to quieten their fears of dying and becoming nothing.

IBrake4Rainbows

05-06-2004, 12:19 AM

There is documentation of someone calling himself the messiah, yes. But was he?

This is where the whole faith thing comes in, only if you believe can you truly see, etc. Which is remarkably pointless because it means your followers are labelled a bit batty and your doubters are given more ammunition. To believe means to give your all to your religion, and as far as i'm concerned, let them worship the air above them if they want, no skin off my nose.

It's just something to help people deal with death, we all have lost a loved one, and I certainly hope that they didn't just become worm food, but unfortunately they have, it's as simple as that.

crisis

05-06-2004, 12:20 AM

Beacuse you're trying to simplify it into 2 steps.
Thre were more steps than grains of sand on the planet.
A single cell became 2, then more.
Specialisation then started with perhaps intake and excretion of simple nutrients ( I'm just conjecturing those for poitn of illumination )
Then those specilised cells become larger as it has an advatnage. Then they become grouped. Then they become identifiable as single organ.

Similarly the brain.
The slearest evolutionary step which made primates top of the tree wwas the folding of the brain to increase capcity.
Then human evolved an increased frontal lobe.
Call this last part divine intervention if you want or maybe it is ALL divine and the lobes were a natural benefit allowing ius to organise and share for success.
BTW, do you know there is a part of the brain now identified as the "root of religion" ? Research shows activity in this area with people who have religious experiences. Don't know if the opposite is confirmed as additional proof - ie those with no abnormal activity in the are NOT religious. So is THAT evolutionary ( atheists will argue yes ) or divine addition ?? Good discussion point. What are the evolutionary benefits of having a religion ??
But the brain is made up of nothing more than chemicals. How is it that these materials made up in this form give us conciousness.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 01:13 AM

Wait...im a bit confused here. So you're saying there is no God? You're saying all religions are inventions or what here? :confused:
That is precisely the humanist view.
that a religion is something we have to reate to satisfy the higher intelligence qusetioning of existence. We are alone in being able to consider and evaluate potential futures in great complexity. How could we have survived in caves with that capcity if we did not have some drive to do good.

So some view that it is a thing within us all to be good and to do great things.

Counter o that position is usually the repeated question of how did that ned evolve and was it guided by a higher power so that we would recognise his/her/its power.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 01:24 AM

But the brain is made up of nothing more than chemicals. How is it that these materials made up in this form give us conciousness.
this is an easier discussion than trying to prove/disprove/explain God for sure :)

If you look into the lower animals you can see simpler brains than ours. They have the same materials. The same neurons, dendrites and elctrical patterns.
The same basic structure.
From the simplest slugs with VERY limited capabilities to man there are similar building blocks.
in man we evolved along a line with primates.
The basic differences between man and monkey brains are in the volume and the extra expaneded frontal lobes.
These carry much of our higher level thinking, reasoning and our unique abilities.
In the world around us we can see the evolutionary path of the nervious system through those species which had limited evolutionary change having found a "safe" niche.
Again in the natural world trying to explain the structure as a scientist, engineer or builder can seem near impossible. But that is a limitation of our observation and understanding. Not thinking of it as something built yesterday from a bag of chemicals but an organ which grew and evolved over millions of years to put us at the top of the food chain can make it more comprehensible.

Falcon500

05-06-2004, 07:12 AM

Not sure.....
Mothers Catholic...
And from what i can tell father protistant (spelling)...i judge this from him being mostly irish...the mixed chruch we suupposidly belong too....because he sure as hell aint saying...
That said i believe in god...ibelieve in the devil...i try to give every religion a fair go....im not a heathen but a sure aint no angel either....im confused... :confused:

That said (and i have to ad this:)) Viking relgions seem cool what other relgion do you go to a neat place called valhalla and drink and tell striores.... like dieng and going to a gaint pub :D add a race track and a full gargae and a few good women and my mates and i wouldent want anything:)

werty

05-06-2004, 08:36 AM

im going to have to disagree there, anyone who lives there life doing good rather than evil, living from the good inside themselves has a spot in heaven.

well if you beleive in god or Heaven you know that good works do not save you. As it says in the Bible "no one comes to the father except by me"-Jesus

thats why he died for us, so we didn't have to go to hell, he wants us to be with him in heaven forever, but works won't get you there

werty

05-06-2004, 08:44 AM

imo heaven doesn't exist.....how funny that I say that!!

I don't believe in Christ. If I don't think there is a Christ, then how can I go to heaven? I would go to hell. Then again, I don't believe in hell or heaven. which throws your argument off imo werty. I don't believe in the Bible and what not, I doubt people are condemned to eternity in hell, imo that's a little lame. Eh, I can see this turning into a heated discussion then a flame war real soon..... :(

My point: You can't argue using much biblical stuff, there is no evidence of heaven and hell, no evidence of God, etc.
You can partly argue with evolution, there is lots of evidence such as fossils, geological evidence, DNA, etc.

First of all, i don't want to start a war with anyone, just keep it at the debate level,

Evidence? Evolution has not one single peice of evidence to this date, it is still a theory.

Law of Entropy- everything is moving from order to disorder
Theory of Evolution- everything is going from disorder to order

The Law of Entropy is fact that has to be agreed by all scientists(they can't say its wrong)
yet this truth contradicts Evolution

werty

05-06-2004, 08:55 AM

PS: if I am right, and there is no GOD, than a lot of people have wasted so much of there already short lives worshiping an unseen unproven GOD, its not funny.

There is a difference between knowing something and thinking you know something. I just want you to know i am not trying to condemn you to hell, quite the opposite. I'm trying to open your eyes to God, you are blinded by Satan because he wants you to suffer. I would like to meet you some day, and what better place to know that i might meet you in heaven. It is Gods love for me and all of you that makes me want to share it with all of you. I cant let you live your life and die someday knowing that i didn't try, i would feel terrible.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 09:06 AM

well if you beleive in god or Heaven you know that good works do not save you. As it says in the Bible "no one comes to the father except by me"-Jesus

thats why he died for us, so we didn't have to go to hell, he wants us to be with him in heaven forever, but works won't get you there
Literal interpetation of a translation of a translation of a converstation is never the best.

Another interpreation theolgists have applied is that Jesus was advising that only by following his teachings ( "by me" ) would we be assured entry.

So waving hands, speaking in tongues and acting a selfish asshole won't hack it.

I've discussed Christianity and religion with more people who have a greater graps of the value and outcomes than most church members who slavishly follow a teaching by a modern day interpretor ( priest/minister )

If we were to take it all literally then I should be an inanimate Rock (Peter) :)

Matt

05-06-2004, 09:08 AM

well if you beleive in god or Heaven you know that good works do not save you. As it says in the Bible "no one comes to the father except by me"-Jesus

thats why he died for us, so we didn't have to go to hell, he wants us to be with him in heaven forever, but works won't get you there

But, you can't say all of this as if it is fact. It is your faith. It is your belief. I, however, do not believe it. Just as you can't tell me why you do believe it, I can't tell you why I don't. I never have. It has never been a part of me even though my parents and grandparents are both fairly religious, as they attend church every week. Even my brother-in-law is a pastor. I still don't get it. It doesn't work for me. There's not concrete evidence either way, but the evolution theory tends to be more practical, more plausible. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it's not fair for you to tell everyone else they are wrong. Sure, maybe you're not condemning them to hell. But, you're telling them they are wrong to believe what they believe. No one has told you that. You need to stop doing it yourself.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 09:17 AM

First of all, i don't want to start a war with anyone, just keep it at the debate level,

Evidence? Evolution has not one single peice of evidence to this date, it is still a theory.

Have you seriously studied evolutionary evidence in the breedin g of fruit flies ?
We can test theories on adaptation and SEE them happen.
Keeping off the priamte branch, you need tyo look at Equus and the evolution of the horse as it changed to match food availability, surroundings.

Of course, it is also acceptable to turn a back on science and follow religion intolerantly ( please don't take that last word TOO literally either :) )

Law of Entropy- everything is moving from order to disorder
Theory of Evolution- everything is going from disorder to order

THAT is rubbish.
Who told you that is the theory of evolution ?
You need to take them aside and advise them strongly before they advise anyone on anything important !!
The "Theory of Evolution" is that specis adapt through genetic mutation and change to take better advantage of the resources in their surriondings and continue a strong bloodline.
It has NOTHING to do with disorder to order !!
The fact that there once was didsorder and now there is a tiny sampling of order in the universe is nothing to do with evolution.

The Law of Entropy is fact that has to be agreed by all scientists(they can't say its wrong)
yet this truth contradicts Evolution
BTW the Law of Entropy only works in a closed system.
Evolution by definition is an open system.
You can't compare apples and oranges :)
So there IS no truth to be contradicted !!!!

If you are repeating this from a study group you may want to suggest some classical philospohical reasoning and take the opposite point of view and explain from that perspective. It will open a helpful debate which may save time on UCP :)

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 09:30 AM

There is a difference between knowing something and thinking you know something. I just want you to know i am not trying to condemn you to hell, quite the opposite. I'm trying to open your eyes to God, you are blinded by Satan because he wants you to suffer. I would like to meet you some day, and what better place to know that i might meet you in heaven. It is Gods love for me and all of you that makes me want to share it with all of you. I cant let you live your life and die someday knowing that i didn't try, i would feel terrible.
Have you considerd that you are being blinded by false prophets ?

Mathew 7, the words of Jesus ....
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So are the teachings we chose to follow and believe good for oursel=ves and our fellow man ( christian or otherwise ) ?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So first he asks us to follow his teachings to enter heaven and in the following text he says it through him knowing us. Interesting order he used in setting it down.

Misho

05-06-2004, 09:49 AM

In discussing such an important topic, one first has to understand and acknowledge the fact that the human brain has its limits. There are some things that we will never be able to comprehend, we have our limited capabilities and we need to work with them.

By saying that, I mean to say that neither God's existence nor evolution can be fully understood from a human's point if view. To think about such topics we have to think outside the box and be more open minded. Evolution is the transfrom from one thing to another. It means that we evolved from something that evolved from something and so on, until you will reach a point that you must understand that the very initial "thing" had to be created by some sort of power that our human brain cannot understand. That power is God. Asking about God's existence would lead to no where as we have reached our mental capacities in that field. Our brain has its limits, we think with different parameters such as time and space. Tools that do not enable us to fully understand these unhuman characteristics.

Sure evolution exists and we as humans did evolve, but taking evolution as the basis of our existence doesn't make much sense. So we did evolve from something, but where it come from ? It must of been all started by someone. Thinking beyond that will lead to nowhere, no matter what your beleifs.

A person that beleives in God has went back with his thinking a bit more than an athiest. Too bad we can't go even beyond that with our limited mental capacities.

Matt

05-06-2004, 09:57 AM

Matt

05-06-2004, 09:59 AM

Misho

05-06-2004, 10:02 AM

You're still making an elitist statement and that is very unconstructive to this conversation.

i dont know what is an elitist statement and i wasnt meaning anything bad to anyone. I was relating everything to a time scale and how evolution must of started from something. Not that aethiests didn't think their choice or that they are going to hell and all that stuff that was posted before. I said it in my post and i will say it again, we have to be open-minded.

Matt

05-06-2004, 10:03 AM

i dont know what is an elitist statement and i wasnt meaning anything bad to anyone. I was relating everything to a time scale and how evolution must of started from something. Not that aethiests didn't think their choice or that they are going to hell and all that stuff that was posted before. I said it in my post and i will say it again, we have to be open-minded.

I was referring to your point that people who believe in a God must have come to that conclusion through deeper thought.

Misho

05-06-2004, 10:05 AM

And I'd also go on to say that the vast majority of self-described religious people have NOT thought about it very much. Most went to church because they were brought up that way. Most have not thought beyond what they were told. Otherwise they wouldn't have to keep referring back to the Bible for their evidence.

Again I didnt say that relegious people thought of their situation more than aethiests or any other group of people. I do agree with you that most people just grew up in a situation and never bothered to think about other situations and do a change.
Maybe you misunderstood me.

Matt

05-06-2004, 10:07 AM

Again I didnt say that relegious people thought of their situation more than aethiests or any other group of people. I do agree with you that most people just grew up in a situation and never bothered to think about other situations and do a change.
Maybe you misunderstood me.

I guess so. No worries.

Matt

05-06-2004, 10:08 AM

A person that beleives in God has went back with his thinking a bit more than an athiest.

This was the comment that made me think that.

Misho

05-06-2004, 10:11 AM

I was referring to your point that people who believe in a God must have come to that conclusion through deeper thought.

I mean it is deeper on a time scale not in the sense that it is better. As long as a person did his thinking, reading and research then came to a conclusion for his choice of faith, that is what is important. Just because I grew up in faith, doesnt mean that I have to enforce it to all others. I can discuss it with anyone interested to enable us to reach a conclusion each sees fit. What everyone does with their life, is their own choice that they will be responsible for.

Matt

05-06-2004, 11:00 AM

I mean it is deeper on a time scale not in the sense that it is better. As long as a person did his thinking, reading and research then came to a conclusion for his choice of faith, that is what is important. Just because I grew up in faith, doesnt mean that I have to enforce it to all others. I can discuss it with anyone interested to enable us to reach a conclusion each sees fit. What everyone does with their life, is their own choice that they will be responsible for.

Agreed.

BTW, that's the best Chinese proverb I've heard. :)

NAZCA C2

05-06-2004, 11:42 AM

I don't believe in any of that god stuff.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 01:38 PM

Sure evolution exists and we as humans did evolve, but taking evolution as the basis of our existence doesn't make much sense. So we did evolve from something, but where it come from ? It must of been all started by someone. Thinking beyond that will lead to nowhere, no matter what your beleifs.
The last sentence has just side-lined 5000 years of the planets philosopher :)

We have "created" amino acids from methane and chemical "soup" by subjectig it to a large eltrcial discharge.

Just as could have happened on Earth billions of years ago.
Geologic evidence points to the environment having existed on Earth and that electrical ectivity would have been present in the 'atmosphere' similar to today but in MUCH higher activity levels.

So the planet DID HAVE the same conditions as a lab test in whcih man created amino acids.

Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins and enzymes.

So necessary base parts of our own make up could have been 'created' through naturla activity.

Please don't throuw these facts out.

My scan on it is the power of a divinity is present in the physical laws which meant that those events would combine to create those building blocks.

werty

05-06-2004, 04:00 PM

I was referring to your point that people who believe in a God must have come to that conclusion through deeper thought.

yes that is exactly how it happens, the more you want to know about God the more he opens your mind to him, from there on you grow in understanding of him. I haven't grown enough as a christian to fully understand everything he says, but i am trying, my hope is that one day i will truly undertsand and then i will be able to show you guys what he is all about. :)

Matt

05-06-2004, 04:50 PM

yes that is exactly how it happens, the more you want to know about God the more he opens your mind to him, from there on you grow in understanding of him. I haven't grown enough as a christian to fully understand everything he says, but i am trying, my hope is that one day i will truly undertsand and then i will be able to show you guys what he is all about. :)

I was saying that's an elitist statement that is detrimental to a civil debate. And you embraced it...good job.

Misho

05-06-2004, 05:15 PM

Just out of political correctness, could any of the moderators change the option "Arabic" in the poll into "Islam" as it seems that darkpheonix was mixed up.

Thanks.

GT500

05-06-2004, 05:21 PM

I think its pretty well document that Christ existed.

I would care to mildy diasagree with that. Im not saygint he Bible is fake, but who were the many authors of these books (ones that make up Bible)? How do we know they were written when they were? imo, that's just a tad bit suspicious. Again, I don't want to start arguing.

First of all, i don't want to start a war with anyone, just keep it at the debate level,

Evidence? Evolution has not one single peice of evidence to this date, it is still a theory.

There is lots of evidence for evolution: fossils, DNA, many things. I agree that there are some gaping holes in the theory of evolution however.

I, for one, don't want to start a flame war either, I don't want to destroy people's beliefs in other religions (if atheism is actually a religion). I think I'll leave to my statements to what I've already said. I'll resign from this thread until I find something more to debate about.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 05:27 PM

I would care to mildy diasagree with that. Im not saygint he Bible is fake, but who were the many authors of these books (ones that make up Bible)? How do we know they were written when they were? imo, that's just a tad bit suspicious. Again, I don't want to start arguing.
There are many corroborating texts of the existence of Christ.
Some are NOT as positive as those collated by the church.
Some are suppressed - especially of a report supposedly written by a rulling authority on the actions of Jesus and his followers which basically described them as a fanatic cult with a 'terrorist' leader !! Usually assumed to be biased to justify persecution :)
The secondary issue on the divinity of Christ does require an acceptance of God and the resurrection.
These can justifiably be questioned otherwise it would not be "faith" :)

iamME

05-06-2004, 06:05 PM

Did you know that the Bible(NIV) has not a single contradiction to itself.

I'm sorry but are you sure you've written this down correctly?
Here are a few lovely examples...

GOD IS SUCH A WONDERFUL LOVED FILLED MAN...

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)

WHAT GOD HAS TO SAY ON THE SUBJECT OF HIS PERSON...

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

GOD'S HAVING AN IDENTITY CRISIS

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen

JESUS IS HAVING AN INFERIORIRY COMPLEX...

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Does anyone know why jesus is portrayed as being a white man with fairly fair hair? Just wondering as he is from the middle east and all.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 06:19 PM

I'm sorry but are you sure you've written this down correctly?
Here are a few lovely examples...
Lots of differnec in the God in Old and New Testament.
THAT is why Jesus came to spread the word about the difference.

JESUS IS HAVING AN INFERIORIRY COMPLEX...

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
This is fundamental to the Christian trinity that jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three AND one.
No contradiction :)

Does anyone know why jesus is portrayed as being a white man with fairly fair hair? Just wondering as he is from the middle east and all.
Because most of the imagery we are exposed to is from the Catholic church a predominately caucasion organisation for 1000 years.
It's a relfection of our society over the centuries rather than of the man/god/divinity.
WHy is Santa portrayed as a white man ??

iamME

05-06-2004, 06:41 PM

WHy is Santa portrayed as a white man ??
The santa we see today was created by a corporation, coca-cola, what we have today as christmas is just another "hallmark" holiday like valentines day and mothers day. It's for feel good purposes and way for corporations to make a lot of money. They do have a history, but everyone seams to forgotten it, like how we've convinently forgotten why we invaded Iraq.

Matra et Alpine

05-06-2004, 06:57 PM

The santa we see today was created by a corporation, coca-cola, what we have today as christmas is just another "hallmark" holiday like valentines day and mothers day. It's for feel good purposes and way for corporations to make a lot of money. They do have a history, but everyone seams to forgotten it, like how we've convinently forgotten why we invaded Iraq.
cheers iamME, it was intended as a rhetorical question :)

crisis

05-06-2004, 08:03 PM

First of all, i don't want to start a war with anyone, just keep it at the debate level,

Evidence? Evolution has not one single peice of evidence to this date, it is still a theory.

Law of Entropy- everything is moving from order to disorder
Theory of Evolution- everything is going from disorder to order

The Law of Entropy is fact that has to be agreed by all scientists(they can't say its wrong)
yet this truth contradicts Evolution
These are the type of arguments put forward by people to followers of religions so that they can refute things like evolution. When a church leader says outrageous generalisations or blatant lies like this, the avid follower naturally believes them. Ususally without question or any other research.

iamME

05-06-2004, 08:05 PM

cheers iamME, it was intended as a rhetorical question :)
yeah i know i was just being annoying. :D

crisis

05-06-2004, 08:05 PM

megotmea7

05-06-2004, 08:53 PM

actually the old theory that we dont utilize 100% or we only use 10% or whatever of our brain was a stament made by a famos philosopher, it has no scientific backing esential he was talking out of his ass to try and get ppl to open their mind or something. we do use most of our brain(sorry been a while since i took any phsycology classes so hang with me) most of our brain is dedicated to motor skills, memory, horomone production, and input processing. as far as the extent of our general comprehension and "processing power" i dont belive the limits have been marked or even understood, mabe the limits of our intellegence are out of our comprehension also :rolleyes:

another question science AND religion have failed to answer is whates after the end of the universe, is it possible to be a limitless expanse, mabe to our reletivly short basis of time but if you could travel at a couple billion light years an hour would you reach an end? would you "fall off", would you meet "god", or would you just reset at teh other side ala astroid(old arcade game for you non americans, dont know if you guys had it in other parts of the world) well i think ive completly driven off topic, over the embankment and into the bushes of nonsense...

mr bill

05-06-2004, 09:02 PM

crisis

05-06-2004, 11:07 PM

another question science AND religion have failed to answer is whates after the end of the universe, is it possible to be a limitless expanse, mabe to our reletivly short basis of time but if you could travel at a couple billion light years an hour would you reach an end? would you "fall off", would you meet "god", or would you just reset at teh other side ala astroid(old arcade game for you non americans, dont know if you guys had it in other parts of the world) well i think ive completly driven off topic, over the embankment and into the bushes of nonsense...
I heard or read that some scientists ( one must always be careful with scientists ) believe that there is nothing at the end of the universe. Not nothing in the sense we know, like space nothing , which consists of matter nevertheless, but nothing in a wy we cant comprehend. Possibly nothing in a physical form? I love this shit.

megotmea7

05-07-2004, 01:18 AM

I love this shit
i agree its quite the interesting topic, pitty theres only so much known, and that can be said about it, based on our current understanding on the laws of physics and so on, the idea of just nothing, doesnt make sense, you out there in your space suit on the edge of the universe you stick out your glove and it just disappears into oblivion, you get sucked into nonexistance, matter doesnt just disapear, or mabe it does just in a way we dont understand. this is getting way off the topic of religion, mabe another topic should be created on this matter(hell with the brains we have on this board we could solve the mystery anyways, we even have our own personal engineer! lol@ misho :))

anyway as for the matter a hand, being agnostic im content in not knowning and content in knowing ill never know, it would be illogical to dedicate my life to something based entirely on an ancient document, hearsay, what im "suposed" to belive, and blind faith in a higher power. i think the majority of faith is pushed on childeren while they are young, they arnt given the chance to determine what they want to belive, they grow in an environment when their god is right and thats it, everything else is wrong. i grew up in this environment, my grandparents took me to church every day, i was in sunday school, part of the choir, the works. but being the objective person i am i began questioning my beliefs and you have me today. most hardcore religious people wont even consider questioning their beliefs. its scary, the beliefs you grew up with and were taught was the most important thing are being challenged by some guy. you go into defense mode, whatever they say is wrong, their trying to hurt, confuse, trick you, this is a test of god etc. if you are comfortable in your beliefs then i dont see a problem in even considering the possibility of it being wrong. which brings me to one of my biggest problems with major religions. as its been said before how can you look me in the eye and tell me that the other half of the planet is wrong, ther going to hell because they dont belive what you do, your right and thats the end of it. even some of the most open minded ppl i know are this closed minded about it. it boarders on ignorance. anyway ive rambled on enough, its late, i need sleep, i hope i didnt ofend anyone, just stateing my views, goodnight :)

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 02:54 AM

i agree its quite the interesting topic, pitty theres only so much known, and that can be said about it, based on our current understanding on the laws of physics and so on, the idea of just nothing, doesnt make sense, you out there in your space suit on the edge of the universe you stick out your glove and it just disappears into oblivion, you get sucked into nonexistance, matter doesnt just disapear, or mabe it does just in a way we dont understand.
Well infinity is one conjecture and we can't graps that concept either.
Recent theories suggest that it's a folded space and as you move farther away from one point you will actually be coming round somewhere else. This takes the handling of multi-dimensoinal space. Mathemitecians play with th e theories of n-dimension space to prove theorem and it holds together. Personally I can't comprehed 9 dimensions without resorting to Science Fiction books :)

i think the majority of faith is pushed on childeren while they are young, they arnt given the chance to determine what they want to belive, they grow in an environment when their god is right and thats it, everything else is wrong. i grew up in this environment, my grandparents took me to church every day, i was in sunday school, part of the choir, the works. but being the objective person i am i began questioning my beliefs and you have me today. most hardcore religious people wont even consider questioning their beliefs.
I had a similar up-bringing and was allowed to make my own choices at an early age.
It did instill strong moreal code which I still hold to and in part led me away from the church due to he hypocrisy.
I am now a more committed Christian ( with humanist tendencies :) ) but still argue strongly with church peaders and members on the need for action on the streets and not just in Sundays. The Church of Scotland once had a practise whereby an elder of the church would visit all the homes and you would only be allowed to come to communion if you showed a lifestyle of compassion embracing Christ's teachings. Gone now, probably because most would fail (bias I know :) )

how can you look me in the eye and tell me that the other half of the planet is wrong, ther going to hell because they dont belive what you do, your right and thats the end of it.
Well it's the organised churches which have promulgated that view over the centuires.
Mainly for the purpose of gaining power.
Why are priest not permitted to be married has more to do with matriarchal power 1000 years ago then it has to do with the Word !!

junaman

05-07-2004, 03:37 AM

Am i the only fully Jewish person on this forum???

If so then cool.

Falcon500

05-07-2004, 04:33 AM

Because most of the imagery we are exposed to is from the Catholic church a predominately caucasion organisation for 1000 years.
It's a relfection of our society over the centuries rather than of the man/god/divinity.
WHy is Santa portrayed as a white man ??
Funny thing Santa clauses colours are actually a reasonbly new thing...they are advertising for the coke a cola he origonally was a saint who dropped gold down poor people chineys...not some chubby guy in a red suit with raindeer....yes he was based on a real person....

Misho

05-07-2004, 05:13 AM

we even have our own personal engineer! lol@ misho :))

yep, one that sits at home doing nothing !! :)

anyways, this is my second call to any of the LAZY moderators we have here. can any of you change the poll option "Arabic" to "Islam" ? It was a mistake made by the thread starter. If you can't solve the problem, then tell me so. Dont leave me nagging like that !!

Matt

05-07-2004, 05:37 AM

yep, one that sits at home doing nothing !! :)

anyways, this is my second call to any of the LAZY moderators we have here. can any of you change the poll option "Arabic" to "Islam" ? It was a mistake made by the thread starter. If you can't solve the problem, then tell me so. Dont leave me nagging like that !!

How's that?

Misho

05-07-2004, 05:45 AM

How's that?

Much better, thank you !!

Falcon500

05-07-2004, 05:46 AM

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 06:06 AM

Funny thing Santa clauses colours are actually a reasonbly new thing...they are advertising for the coke a cola he origonally was a saint who dropped gold down poor people chineys...not some chubby guy in a red suit with raindeer....yes he was based on a real person....
St Nikolas wore bishop's robes which were a RED gown, and he had long white hair and beard.
So the Coka-Cola was an adaptation of the original :)

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 06:08 AM

lazy moderators?....i take offense at that...im a bludger:(
The downside of increasing numbers of moderators is at times we'll assume someone else will get it :)
Sorry Misho, my excuse is I was using my limited time on UCP getting the Knockhill posts out. Feeble excuse, huh !!

Falcon500

05-07-2004, 06:19 AM

The downside of increasing numbers of moderators is at times we'll assume someone else will get it :)
Sorry Misho, my excuse is I was using my limited time on UCP getting the Knockhill posts out. Feeble excuse, huh !!
So very true....

And the St Nick Rags where red?....seems toconvient if you ask me :rolleyes: (we need a unbelieving face) though is possibly verytrue...istill think its rather twisted to use an image like that for advetising...but ill get over it...

werty

05-07-2004, 08:41 AM

i agree its quite the interesting topic, pitty theres only so much known, and that can be said about it, based on our current understanding on the laws of physics and so on, the idea of just nothing, doesnt make sense, you out there in your space suit on the edge of the universe you stick out your glove and it just disappears into oblivion, you get sucked into nonexistance, matter doesnt just disapear, or mabe it does just in a way we dont understand. this is getting way off the topic of religion, mabe another topic should be created on this matter(hell with the brains we have on this board we could solve the mystery anyways, we even have our own personal engineer! lol@ misho :))

anyway as for the matter a hand, being agnostic im content in not knowning and content in knowing ill never know, it would be illogical to dedicate my life to something based entirely on an ancient document, hearsay, what im "suposed" to belive, and blind faith in a higher power. i think the majority of faith is pushed on childeren while they are young, they arnt given the chance to determine what they want to belive, they grow in an environment when their god is right and thats it, everything else is wrong. i grew up in this environment, my grandparents took me to church every day, i was in sunday school, part of the choir, the works. but being the objective person i am i began questioning my beliefs and you have me today. most hardcore religious people wont even consider questioning their beliefs. its scary, the beliefs you grew up with and were taught was the most important thing are being challenged by some guy. you go into defense mode, whatever they say is wrong, their trying to hurt, confuse, trick you, this is a test of god etc. if you are comfortable in your beliefs then i dont see a problem in even considering the possibility of it being wrong. which brings me to one of my biggest problems with major religions. as its been said before how can you look me in the eye and tell me that the other half of the planet is wrong, ther going to hell because they dont belive what you do, your right and thats the end of it. even some of the most open minded ppl i know are this closed minded about it. it boarders on ignorance. anyway ive rambled on enough, its late, i need sleep, i hope i didnt ofend anyone, just stateing my views, goodnight :)

We'll you didn't offend me but i do have one question for you that you should be asking yourself. it sounds like to me your saying that kids are brainwashed when they grow up in a christian or any religious enviroment. My point is the same could be said about the enviroment you grew up in; the enviroment that didn't try and tell you what was right or wrong.

werty

05-07-2004, 09:12 AM

I'm an absolutest.

This means that I believe that everything has a perfectly rational explanation, and that anything lacking in a perfectly rational explanation is therefore irrational and does, thus, not exsist.

Hence, seeing as no one has ever provided me with proof of the exsistance of gods they therefore do not exsist.

Simple as that.

ok, mr. Bill, could you please give me the perfect rationalization of how your eyes were created without intelligent design by God. And another- How come i can feel the wind , yet i cannot see it. What makes the world go around, the earth, the rock itself is not alive and it doesn't require to rotate, what is it that keeps it going? I could go all day, and i'll think of some more for later, but i think these are sufficient enough for now.

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 09:49 AM

ok, mr. Bill, could you please give me the perfect rationalization of how your eyes were created without intelligent design by God. And another- How come i can feel the wind , yet i cannot see it. What makes the world go around, the earth, the rock itself is not alive and it doesn't require to rotate, what is it that keeps it going? I could go all day, and i'll think of some more for later, but i think these are sufficient enough for now.
oh ..... my ...... God ..... !!
Werty, you really are taking things to an extreme and I think you should study theology a little before making proouncements.
I don't want to knock your beliefs, I do want to take your teachers/preachers/guides by the throat though !!

Eyes were initially cells which by chance were affected by light.
So the cells which had those could go to where sun was and flourish better.
These then evolved into better 'organs' as specialisation occured based on the drive for improvemnt in different environments.
Furher species have differing ways of eyes working based on their engvironmental needs/dangers. Frogs see MOVEMENT, so they can detect prey/attackers very quickly and simply. We have futher expanded and our brains are adaptable to use our eyes in many ways. So movement, colour, brightness all have roles in our use as hunter/gatherers.

Feeling wind and not seeing is because our eyes don't see molecules.
A nice evolutionary challenge, what benefit would it have given us to SEE wind ? None as it would have created huge visual clutter which would have prevented us seeing the carnivore who was going to eat us ( species ancestors anyway )
So our sense of touch in critical areas enables us to feel wind - even very light ones when we need to.

The earth goes round because of the laws of physics and in particular the conservation of momentum.
I'm not convinced your reading my expanded explanations on all the things raised to date, so I'm not going over all of the physica. But rest assured it's NOT God with a spinning top !!

Our divine belifs are strengthened when we can question them and have an understanding of life around us and not just commit anything we don't understand and dont' bother to research as being 'divine'. Have you considered doing some investigation. It is NOT against any belief system and once was the cornerstone if Islam. Unfortunately for wahtever religious/politcal reason there are only 1 or 2 of the great schools of Islamic teachins and study left ot of once dozes around the world venturies ago. it was those schools which created/discovered many of the things we understand today and is seldom given the due recognition within Islamic society today (IMHO)

megotmea7

05-07-2004, 12:17 PM

We'll you didn't offend me but i do have one question for you that you should be asking yourself. it sounds like to me your saying that kids are brainwashed when they grow up in a christian or any religious enviroment. My point is the same could be said about the enviroment you grew up in; the enviroment that didn't try and tell you what was right or wrong.
reread my post i was raised in a christian environment, with all the morals and commandments that go with it, these are some of the tings the make religions nessesary, they set up a basis of right or wrong and the punishment for breaking them is to the beliver the worst thisng that could happen. and someone who is left to their own devices to determin what is right or wrong for themselfves is not brainwashed, they are neglected, it is the job of the parent to teach morals to the child some choose to do thins thru church

ok, mr. Bill, could you please give me the perfect rationalization of how your eyes were created without intelligent design by God. And another- How come i can feel the wind , yet i cannot see it. What makes the world go around, the earth, the rock itself is not alive and it doesn't require to rotate, what is it that keeps it going? I could go all day, and i'll think of some more for later, but i think these are sufficient enough for now.
give me a break... matra already covered this but jeez...

werty

05-07-2004, 03:51 PM

Eyes were initially cells which by chance were affected by light.

Key word there Matra, Chance

If you were created by chance, then what is your purpose on this earth? Not what you'd like to accomplish in life, not what you have already accomplished in life, why are you here? THATS THE REAL QUESTION MATRA!!!!!!!!!

I will not accept chance as my purpose for being here, that is absurd! I look around, and see the mountains, the sky, i see my friends my family, i see the talents i have been given! No that is not from chance, it has to be from God.
I don't understand how much more facts you need to see that, it is so real and true to me and millions of others around the world, why can't you see it like me?! I want you to see it!!!!!!!!!

Sweeney921

05-07-2004, 03:56 PM

i'm presbyterian (a denomination of christianity), but i act atheist. i get confused when i think about the whole story, and i end up staying away.

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 04:38 PM

Key word there Matra, Chance
you're really showing yourself up here, Werty.
I said the ONE cell was chance. That is what evolution is about.
You clearly still haven't grasped the principles and I don't know whether it is "blind faith" or what !!!
Each evoltionary step is driven by chance, the random error in a DNA replication introducing a new feature.
Most do nothing or create negative traits, the odd ones produce positive traits. These ones ar the ones producing the evolutionary steps.
You really need to stop thinking only in the now when you ponedr these things.

If you were created by chance, then what is your purpose on this earth? Not what you'd like to accomplish in life, not what you have already accomplished in life, why are you here? THATS THE REAL QUESTION MATRA!!!!!!!!!
First, to many belief systems we are here on Earth because we are here, end of story. THEN we have moral systems which guide that as we are here we should do 'good'. Then we have religious systems which say we are here because we were banished from the side of God and one day we may be able to return ( btw that is NOT at death. Read Revelations closely to realise when )

I will not accept chance as my purpose for being here, that is absurd!
Why is it absurd ?
It is chance that you and I have met on this forum. Or perhaps it is divine guidance from God that I am here to assist you in reaching a higher spiritual understanding . Or maybe not :)

I look around, and see the mountains, the sky, i see my friends my family, i see the talents i have been given! No that is not from chance, it has to be from God.
Others will say it is from Gaia.
Are they all wrong and condemned ?
No, because the one thing Christ came to teach us was that God isn't the old testament destroyer and cleaver, He is the caring one. "Above all else is love" are the words. So ABOVE religion, ABOVE government, ABOVE church, love is the most important. Loving ourselves and our fellow man.
You seem to focus on the material things. Evolution, cells, nature, it may help to grasp more theoligical things to be in a better position tp put forward sound and reaseoned statements and arguments.
When does a leaf fall from a tree ?
Does God decide ?
The bible says He "knows" everything. It does NOT say he controls everything.
He guides, not steers, there is a BIG difference.

I don't understand how much more facts you need to see that, it is so real and true to me and millions of others around the world, why can't you see it like me?! I want you to see it!!!!!!!!!
The first FACT is I'm a Christian, I pofess my faith to friends, family and strangers. You struggle with a religious person able to accept the scientific facts and theories that abound,
I affirm my faith through deeds and acts.
I do not need to affirm it by turnign my back on science.
They are NOT competing, they in fact enhance.
We can understand the beauty of this universe MORE by the tools science has given us.
In seeing that beauty, we can appreciate how wonderous it is.
We dont' need to say that it was all CREATED by control and magic to make it anything greater.
it is already great for having grown into this universe.
Personally I think you'd do well to read some Scienvce Fiction to open up wildest possibilities. One of my favourites is a short story where man finally is able to look deep into the atmoics structure of this world and in that way will fully understand it all and as they use an 'instrument' to look deeper and in more detail and beyond the atom, beyond the quark they come to the smallest item. This is the last piece of information that will make man supremen in his understnading of the universe and as it comes into focus they can see writing on this object (C) Copyright God.
I feel this conversation will be ending soon as nothing can be achieved when our eyes are closed to His possibilities and wonderment.
Opening our hearts and minds to God is NOT about closing them to everything else.
Some prefer to live in blind faith.
I contend that they are then not questioning themselves to affirm their faith.
Blind faith is easy, contested faith is hard !!

werty

05-07-2004, 04:49 PM

ace

05-07-2004, 05:00 PM

If you were created by chance, then what is your purpose on this earth? Not what you'd like to accomplish in life, not what you have already accomplished in life, why are you here? THATS THE REAL QUESTION MATRA!!!!!!!!!

I will not accept chance as my purpose for being here, that is absurd! I look around, and see the mountains, the sky, i see my friends my family, i see the talents i have been given! No that is not from chance, it has to be from God.

Werty I applaud your dedication and respect you beliefs, but you haven’t expand why your hear ether.
Just what till life kicks you in the teeth a few times for no apparent rezone I mean if you’re a good man and do no wrong life should be a breeze shorly there’s no need to make the good suffer with the bad.
I appreciate that you care about us and I hope your not taking this all to seriously. , I just want you to think it through as the intelligent person that I know you are, before you dedicate your self completely.
I still haven’t got the name of your religion.
Probably one of the reasons I’m not big on the church is the resent spate of priests indecently dealing with kid’s and the way they back each other to cover it all up, and the or sum wealth they bring to the church if it was such a good organization they would use that wealth to help the poor and suffering in this world. Other wise why are they hear???

Sweeney921

05-07-2004, 05:16 PM

guys, have none of us noticed that differing religions have created unrest and even HUGE wars throughout the existence of man? The mystery of religion may never be settled, unless a divine character descends to teach us all. What's the point in even going in depth on this topic? the title of this thread is "What's your religion?" doesn't say "What's your religion, and explain why you believe in it." You can talk deeper if you want, but make it a different thread, please

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 05:19 PM

So your saying you beleive in God and evolution? I've heard of that before, some people believe that god did create us, but he did it through evolution. My problem with that is, evolution basically says that we won't ever stop evolving, until we become gods in a sense, which i would say is quite blasphemas.
So when God created man in his image what did it mean ?
Is God a human body ?
OR ... is man destined to be in his image.
To ascend to heaven and live by his side ?
Why should that NOT be by evolution if that was the path we have the choice to travel ?
Why does evolution mean we become a god ?
You really haven't grasped the theological nature of religion enough to take it on board, frankly. I am not saying you have to either. You may be comfortable in your faith. However, you then shouldn't try to interfere in others if you are not willing to apply the same to your own belief system.
Blasphemous ? I've never questoined His motives or ways, it isn't for us to do that.
I *DO* quesiton our intepretation which is a huma thing.
You confuse the 2 I think.

i'm not saying you are blasphemas, you just seemed like an athiest while i was talking to you and suddenly you say you are a christain and it confused me.
You confuse being a Christian and what I've heard described as being "churchian".
The latter blindly takes leadership from the church and does not look beyond what the church says and does. Sadly 500 years ago this had little danger as churches were the centres of study, learning and discourse on all things. Today some churches are more businesses and less willing to embrace
learning and knowledge. Christ went into the temple and through the peddlars out. They were there with the permission of the leaders and paying their tithe. Christ through them out. Is there not a lesson there ?

A thought. the bible says we can ascend when the Lord is spread across the land.
Does this mean church membership - to some it does.
Or could it be the WAYS as taught by Christ ?
Have you considered for yourself why Jesus came knowing what would happen ? I don't mean the glib relgious "to save us throug resurrection".
The deeper why ??
do you not consider it was to alter how we were interpreting our world and to 'evolve' us in a theological manner to a better understanding ?
Have you thought that you SHOULD be looking to see the common things in all the religions ( and non-religions ) of the world. There are many more similarities than differences. So is one beter than the other for those differences ? Only by study will we know and (for me) be enlightened to the power we have been given and the beutiful environment we are in.

And to the "could it be chance question" I have considered the best answer is yes it could. But tell me how the rules of chance came about. WHY do coins always have 1 in 2 chance of landing head ? No matter how many times you toss a coin and it turned up a head, the NEXT toss is STILL only 1 in 2 chance of being a tail. A million heads could be tossed and it would STILL only be a 1 in 2 chance of a tail. Really undesrtand that and you understand chance and can perhaps see a "higher power" - God, Gaia, Laws of nature. In them all a purpose and a benefit of being good to our neighbours and "doing unto others as we would do unto ourselves" - a statement sadly not used in the positive sense as much as it could be hoped for.

Matra et Alpine

05-07-2004, 05:24 PM

What's the point in even going in depth on this topic? the title of this thread is "What's your religion?" doesn't say "What's your religion, and explain why you believe in it." You can talk deeper if you want, but make it a different thread, please
Well I think the many flavours of Christianity alone needed each to put up a desciption of what their beliefe was as it is more than just a name.
Granted we've gone into some heavy discourse here.
But why create another thread on religino.
For me frankly one is enough in a car forum :)

werty

05-07-2004, 05:49 PM

werty

05-07-2004, 05:56 PM

Werty I applaud your dedication and respect you beliefs, but you haven’t expand why your hear ether.
Just what till life kicks you in the teeth a few times for no apparent rezone I mean if you’re a good man and do no wrong life should be a breeze shorly there’s no need to make the good suffer with the bad.
I appreciate that you care about us and I hope your not taking this all to seriously. , I just want you to think it through as the intelligent person that I know you are, before you dedicate your self completely.
I still haven’t got the name of your religion.
Probably one of the reasons I’m not big on the church is the resent spate of priests indecently dealing with kid’s and the way they back each other to cover it all up, and the or sum wealth they bring to the church if it was such a good organization they would use that wealth to help the poor and suffering in this world. Other wise why are they hear???

And those preists will be held accountable for the people they miss-led, like you. Humans are born into a world of sin, no one is perfect. I have sinned many times and i have repented my sins, for that i am forgiven because Christ died for me on the cross. As he also died for your sins, that you might repent and ask him into your heart to be your Lord and Savior, so you can join him in Heaven for Eternity. Remember Priests and the Pope or whoever, are human, no higher than me or you. Don't think they haven't sinned, in fact one of their biggest sins is allowing people to think they are holy and without sin. but who am i to judge, when i have also sinned

ace

05-07-2004, 06:12 PM

I have no more to say on this subject lets get back to the car's ;)

Coventrysucks

05-07-2004, 06:22 PM

If you beleive there is no God, then when you are dying, you had better be right, because if you don't have a relationship with Christ, you are condemned to eternity in hell. :(

I am not going to try and post anything to intelligent this time since I managed to chat some complete balls previously, which was fairly easily pulled apart quite expertly by Matra.

So I'll just stick to my thoughts.

This quote from Werty is the type of thing that puts me off religion: hipocrasy.
My understanding of Christainity is that it is about Love, and Forgiveness

So if God truely Loves all of us, yet we do something "wrong", i.e. not believing in God, we get sent to hell for eternity.
Where is the Forgiveness there.

Why not; "You'll be sent to hell for a few billion yaers to think about what you've done, and then we might forgive you."

I think that basing what you are going to be doing for the rest of eternity on your actions over a paltry 80 odd years is just stupid.

That is like determining your career after examining your behavior of your first day at school.

And if God does exist, why are there people in the world who don't know about him?

I am not talking about people who choose not to believe, but the people who live in the depths of the Amazon rainforest, or Eskimos in the frozen wastelands.

They haven't heard about God, or Jesus, so how can they believe in them? Technically, because of where they are born, they are automatically going straight to hell.

God is omnipotent, so he knows these people are there, yet he doesn't send Jesus down for a quick explanation of spiritual affairs.

There are just too many unanswerable questions.

werty

05-07-2004, 06:48 PM

I am not going to try and post anything to intelligent this time since I managed to chat some complete balls previously, which was fairly easily pulled apart quite expertly by Matra.

So I'll just stick to my thoughts.

This quote from Werty is the type of thing that puts me off religion: hipocrasy.
My understanding of Christainity is that it is about Love, and Forgiveness

So if God truely Loves all of us, yet we do something "wrong", i.e. not believing in God, we get sent to hell for eternity.
Where is the Forgiveness there.

Why not; "You'll be sent to hell for a few billion yaers to think about what you've done, and then we might forgive you."

I think that basing what you are going to be doing for the rest of eternity on your actions over a paltry 80 odd years is just stupid.

That is like determining your career after examining your behavior of your first day at school.

And if God does exist, why are there people in the world who don't know about him?

I am not talking about people who choose not to believe, but the people who live in the depths of the Amazon rainforest, or Eskimos in the frozen wastelands.

They haven't heard about God, or Jesus, so how can they believe in them? Technically, because of where they are born, they are automatically going straight to hell.

God is omnipotent, so he knows these people are there, yet he doesn't send Jesus down for a quick explanation of spiritual affairs.

There are just too many unanswerable questions.

Well that is why he calls us Christians to minister to the World, so those tribes people will go to heaven. Here is an interesting fact you might like.

A missionary woman i met was trying to reach a tribe in the africa that had not been in contact with the rest of the world for as long as anyone had records; a very long time. When she and the others went into the village they began work immediately. after many years she was able to communicate with them. What she found out was that the tribes people started talking about the beginning of the world. Curious she kept asking them questions about it. They revealed to her that they knew all about the , adam and eve, the fall of man, the tower of babble, the flood, etc. The tribe only had one God, it was the Lord. They didn't need missionaries is my point, they already beleived and had faith in him.

Maybe not all tribes have continued to beleive in God, but God does not completely give up on them. Here are ways God reveals himself to evryone.
1.Nature
2.Conscience
3.Vision's
4. Incarnate Word(Christ)
5. The written word (Bible)
6. Spoken word (God's Creation)
7. alot of others :)

Egg Nog

05-07-2004, 07:19 PM

Here are ways God reveals himself to evryone.
1.Nature
2.Conscience
3.Vision's
4. Incarnate Word(Christ)
5. The written word (Bible)
6. Spoken word (God's Creation)
7. alot of others :)

Unfortunately, in all cases like this, there's absolutely no evidence to back up such claims.

God reveals himself to everyone through nature? Conscience? How so? i don't say this with bad intentions, but if you try to look at it a different my point of view, you might be able to realise how unfounded all of this sounds!

Matt

05-07-2004, 07:22 PM

Well that is why he calls us Christians to minister to the World, so those tribes people will go to heaven. Here is an interesting fact you might like.

So, if you fail to "spread the gospel", if you miss ONE tribesman in the deepest parts of the jungle who has never heard of your Christianity, are you not condemning him to hell? Does that not make you god-like? Does that not make you blasphemous?

Coventrysucks

05-07-2004, 08:07 PM

Matt - My point exactly

werty

05-07-2004, 08:40 PM

Unfortunately, in all cases like this, there's absolutely no evidence to back up such claims.

God reveals himself to everyone through nature? Conscience? How so? i don't say this with bad intentions, but if you try to look at it a different my point of view, you might be able to realise how unfounded all of this sounds!
there are many ways God reveals himself to people, maybe he hasn't revealed himself to you yet, he could very well be waiting for a critical time in your life, when you will have to accept him, because he will be standing right in front of you

ace

05-07-2004, 09:09 PM

there are many ways God reveals himself to people, maybe he hasn't revealed himself to you yet, he could very well be waiting for a critical time in your life, when you will have to accept him, because he will be standing right in front of you
Yes the time in your life when your down and out when your weak and vulnerable then they get inside your head and mess with all you thought you knew and all you believed in then they send you out to work and give most of your money to them then they send you to your friends to try to get them in also, next thing you know people are avoiding you and you don’t know why, that messes with your head also.
Think I don’t know what I’m talking about, one of my best friends was sucked in just like I described, he thought he had all the answers. 6 months later I helped him through depression and worse. He is ok now though luckily.
:( :( :(

werty

05-07-2004, 09:14 PM

So, if you fail to "spread the gospel", if you miss ONE tribesman in the deepest parts of the jungle who has never heard of your Christianity, are you not condemning him to hell? Does that not make you god-like? Does that not make you blasphemous?

as a christian this is what i beleive, i hope this helps you understand

Romans 1:18-21 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will wright them on their minds."

These are just a couple of examples which show that God has placed the knowledge of himself upon the heart of everyone. Therefore I beleive that you could live in a remote jungle, never have anyone tell you about God, or his son Jesus Christ, and you can be saved soley by faith.

Egg Nog

05-07-2004, 09:40 PM

there are many ways God reveals himself to people, maybe he hasn't revealed himself to you yet, he could very well be waiting for a critical time in your life, when you will have to accept him, because he will be standing right in front of you

Ahh, but there you go again... to me, you must understand, this sounds like a load of unfounded rubbish. There have been many atheists over the course of time... why didn't they convert when god revealed himself to them? Do you believe that it happens to everyone? Why not some people? Shouldn't everyone be "saved"?

Could god "reveal" himself to someone during a psychedelic mushroom trip? When does this happen? With my scientific perspective, I tend to be shown a series of proofs before I will believe someone. I know that to many it is only a matter of "faith", but then again, doubting that is inherently why I'm an atheist to begin with.

megotmea7

05-07-2004, 09:58 PM

now based on what you just said is it possible that the other religions are just different interpretations or manefestations of the same beleifs the created your christianity? is judaism wrong? they worship the same god you do, is islam wrong their god is very similar to yours. is the belief that earth is our "god" wrong, its what gives life, takes it away, sustains us, protects us, and above all other "gods" it is here right in front of you. you say you belive in god becuase the world is so beautiful, you define it as beautiful because this is what you grew up knowing as beautiful. if you grew up with red desert rocks being known as beautiful you would attest gods exestence based on this also.

Romans 1:18-21 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
this is one of the things wrong with the "writen word" of the bible, its is open to interpretation, this could scream out to you one thing but someone else interpretes it a different way, who is wrong? what makes the other person right? im guessing you'll avoid this like most of the other hard/unanswerable questions asked of you so ill leave it at that.

and what about the tribes ppl that died fifty years ago, had no idea about your christianity, worshiped his gods of water, wind, harvest, etc. your saying since he didnt "figure it out" from all the "signs" god gave him he is forever condemned to hell?

If you beleive there is no God, then when you are dying, you had better be right, because if you don't have a relationship with Christ, you are condemned to eternity in hell.
and you'd better be right also or you may have just wasted your life on the "wrong religion" or on something that is nonexistant at all.

i have had this conversation many times before, my girlfriend is a hardcore christian baptist. we disagree on many things relating to religion and she does many of the things you are doing here, avoid the questions you cannot answer and answer questions with questions. pastors ive talked to and had this conversation with come to the same avoidance, disregard for your points, etc. i go to church more than most "believers" every week with my girlfriend. im actually pretty good friends with the pastor too as he is one of the few people such as this that respects my state of mind and opinions as i do his(is he not doing his job because he didnt "convert" me?). ive had some preachers ask me to leave because i asked the wrong questions(perhaps he questioned his faith and was scared?)

now werty(wow that is fun to type) im going to ask you one one one, how can you tell me your reliion is right and everyone elses wrong without any hard proof other than circumstantial interpreted happenings, induvidual beliefs, etc.?

werty

05-07-2004, 10:04 PM

Ahh, but there you go again... to me, you must understand, this sounds like a load of unfounded rubbish. There have been many atheists over the course of time... why didn't they convert when god revealed himself to them? Do you believe that it happens to everyone? Why not some people? Shouldn't everyone be "saved"?

Could god "reveal" himself to someone during a psychedelic mushroom trip? When does this happen? With my scientific perspective, I tend to be shown a series of proofs before I will believe someone. I know that to many it is only a matter of "faith", but then again, doubting that is inherently why I'm an atheist to begin with.

I can understand why this would sound like unfounded rubbish. You can not beleive in God from an intellectual stand point, that would be impossible. You can only beleive in God by Faith. And Faith is one of the great mysteries of the universe, it is not something that can be explained it can only it can only be experienced. For example: In Hebrews 1:3 the author says, "the son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being sustaining all things by his powerful word." This statement can only be believed by faith. Otherwise it would sound like rubbish.

another example, Ephesians 2:8 says, "for it is by grace you have been saved through faith."

again in Hebrews, the author says this about faith- "now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

faith requires beleiving something non-intellectually, without any proof physically or otherwise. Sort of like when you get into your car to go somewhere and even though you have no proof your going to arrive at your destination, you have no doubt that you will arrive at your destination, and that requires faith.

i hope this helps you, talk to you later :)

megotmea7

05-07-2004, 10:11 PM

faith requires beleiving something non-intellectually, without any proof physically or otherwise.
this is quite impossible with me...

isnt it ironic that the very thing you have to "disregard" to have faith is the only thing that could prove its existance...

werty

05-07-2004, 10:23 PM

now werty(wow that is fun to type) im going to ask you one one one, how can you tell me your reliion is right and everyone elses wrong without any hard proof other than circumstantial interpreted happenings, induvidual beliefs, etc.?

I beleive Christianity is not a religion, it is a belief by faith. Religion is man made. I am more apt to believe in Christianity with a loving savior who died for my sins, than to believe in a religion to save me.

werty

05-07-2004, 10:33 PM

this is quite impossible with me...

isnt it ironic that the very thing you have to "disregard" to have faith is the only thing that could prove its existance...

faith is not as complicated as you think, if you go to sleep tonight believing that you will wake up in the morning, that is faith! why is it faith? because you have no proof that you will wake up in the morning, but yet you believe you will. You already have faith in certain things, faith in God to save you requires no physical proof. only belief

ace

05-07-2004, 10:43 PM

Werty witch religion are you affiliated with for the 3rd time????

The Tuner

05-07-2004, 11:25 PM

Have you considered doing some investigation. It is NOT against any belief system and once was the cornerstone if Islam. Unfortunately for wahtever religious/politcal reason there are only 1 or 2 of the great schools of Islamic teachins and study left ot of once dozes around the world venturies ago. it was those schools which created/discovered many of the things we understand today and is seldom given the due recognition within Islamic society today (IMHO)

not bad matra....i did not - for an instance - believe that a non-muslim or even a non-arab would give credit where credit is due....to those muslim scholars of bygone centuries. its tru, the founders of many present day sciences were muslims.

i gotta say, werty, i admire u for your stand. i do not, however, much applaud the way u r presenting it. ure obviously intelligent, and u r jus as obviously very staunch in ure faith. but u r not giving us a very nice picture of the relationship between logic and faith in your view. u sed faith is IT, logic or understanding have no play. if u cant understand it, tuff, u gotta believe it...rite?
i cant agree wit that. i am a staunch believer in creation as opposed to evolution (the only evolution i support are the mitsubishi versions :D ) and i believe that God, in His infinite wisdom, gave us a brain, intelligence and intellect, the ability to learn, think and reason and the ability to improve and hone our thinking and reasoning capabilities so that we understand Him and ourselves better. i am a muslim, and in the Quran, God challenges the people to find any mistakes in the Quran or in creation. now i am not saying if u have any reply to this to come n throw em at me, im not good enuff to answer my own questions, let alone yours, but plz do take them to sum1. actually, give em to me, n ill try n get em answered.
wat im tryin to say is, if we were sposed to blindly follow, then y did God give us intellect? u share my belief that God has not created anything in vain, so now whats the brain for?

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 06:17 AM

I beleive that when God said we are created in his image, it means we are similar in that we have arms, legs, facial features, not an identical image of his face and body, but he will appear to us as in the shape of a human.
erm, so our "image" is only one that God may chose to take ?
That means we are NOT in HIS image, we would be in an image he created.
If you take the biblical literal sense, it doesn't work out the way you've said.
So we already are having to interpret it slightly.
Also, you need to study the semantics of the word image ( and in fact of the Greek and Aramaaic words ). Image is NOT limited to look. It can embrace ALL the characterisics.
So we may have been created to have His caring characteristic, or His nurturing, or his equality all valid.

OR His "loving" and as the Bible says -- "above all else is LOVE"

So I put it that the characteristic of "in his image" that is MOST IMPORTANT is the one Jesus made sure was made VERY clear - that of LOVE.

and when all humaity embraces love ( in all its forms ) of each other then will we be at one and back by his side.

Thus not a physical manifestation, bue a spritual one.
And the one TRUE common thing amongst all religions is the love of fellow man :)

NoOne

05-08-2004, 06:20 AM

I am going to admit straight out that I do not think about religion enough to contribute to this thread the way Werty, Matra, Misho and several others have. I have previously stated in this thread that I am Agnostic, now I'll give you my own personal account as to what led me here. Stop reading here if you are easily bored, can't stand melodramatic tales or if you've been looking for a reason to shit on me. :)

- Age 5, living in Wales, my Dad passes away - heart attack brought about by his diabetes.

- This leaves my Mom alone at 22 with 2 young boys (my brother a year younger than me), working 2 part-time jobs as well as her full time job.

- 2 years later while visiting friends(old neighbors from Wales) here in Canada, Mom meets up with this great guy, they get along great, 2 years later the 3 of us move to Canada, 6 months later they marry, I gain a stepfather and 2 great stepsisters.

- Fast forward 9 fairly uneventful years( I am around 16 or 17 yrs old), I meet Tracey, we get along famously for 2 years, I plan on marrying her ... that plan goes to shit when she OD's at a houseparty.

- Bouts of depression, medication and counselling and countless failed relationships, not to mention my own failed attempt at an anti-depressant overdose (how ironic is that?)

- My partying friends disown me ... appears I'm too hardcore, freakish for them to associate with - good friends are hard to come by apparently. I hook up with a new group of people - car guys !!, so begins my new life as a car fanatic, I build, help build, race and street race and everything is awesome - until that night, a street-racing accident that changed my somewhat turmoiling life once again. It takes a while but I get over that, I still raced, but only at the track, I no longer "toured" the streets with my "friends", I associated with them but not with the street-racing scene.

- Fast forward a few more years, at the age of 27 I meet my wife, we now have 3 great kids together and are very happy.

I ask you this; is this the results of (a)God working in mysterious ways or just another example of random circumstance?

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 06:22 AM

I am not going to try and post anything to intelligent this time since I managed to chat some complete balls previously, which was fairly easily pulled apart quite expertly by Matra.
Sorrry if it felt 'bad' just "spreading the word" :)

So I'll just stick to my thoughts.
Bravo. A better option than follwing IMHO :)

My understanding of Christainity is that it is about Love, and Forgiveness
I agree with your POV.
It's churches that make all the other rules and "guide"
people :(

They haven't heard about God, or Jesus, so how can they believe in them? Technically, because of where they are born, they are automatically going straight to hell.
The one common thing amongst all humans is that there is always some spritiual part of their society.
This has led psychologists to identify a latent 'need' in the human psyche for a greater being(s).
That they don't believe in OUR GOD ( whoever makes the claim ) will send them to hell or purgatory is the baltant nonsene part.

NoOne

05-08-2004, 06:26 AM

If I could turn the tables a minute here, I think if there is a God and thusly an afterlife and (better than just a boring eternity) a choice of that afterlife ... sign me up for reincarnation. I'd take this ride again in a heartbeat !!! :)

Falcon500

05-08-2004, 07:16 AM

Im with NoOne when i die i wish to be rencarnated as a rabbit in country NSW :) then i would like to be rencarnated as something with a brain in their head and not in their busness end :rolleyes: ....
And Werty i am actuually takeingyou posts quite offensivly....mygran (lod bless her dearly departed soul) had enough faith she made a preist gasp...when she was being eaten away by cancer she was willing to put her life in the lords hands....not something i would do but never the less i have to admire her for the strength she showed in her faith and strength of charictor in her final days....
And werty how can so many people be so wrong? if there wasnt a god who loved us and cared for us why would we wish to go on your cynical view of the world is really quite sad...ipersonally leave things up to chance things may or maynot be...there may not be a god...but i really think their is....and also what is wrong with people wanting to believe in something greater then themselves? personally i thinkgod and jesus are greater role models then the ones that are created through famemoney and art and music....

my 2 cents as i said im not relegious but i will not call someone stupid based on a solid belife like a fair dinkum religion.....

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 07:16 AM

Therefore I beleive that you could live in a remote jungle, never have anyone tell you about God, or his son Jesus Christ, and you can be saved soley by faith.
Thank you.

and you don't have to name him God or call him Jesus ??

As long as the "spirit" is good within you, then you'll be fine.

Guess what, I've found more good actheists and agnostics than I've found Christians and I've done a lot of work in both. While at Uni I worked with the poor living on the streets to help them - it was through a Christian organisation which didn't feel it necessary to convert them !

In the name of Christian Missionary, the churches and their leaders have oppressed more people than Hitler, Saddam and all the rest combined !!

As Christians we still can be guilty of using the "spiritual hig ground" to consider ourselves superior and others should "be changed" to conform.
And yet Jesus had a prostitute wash his feet and STILL some don't get it !!!!

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 07:20 AM

fpv_gtho

05-08-2004, 07:23 AM

as far as i know though, the Torah which the Jewish use, is the first 5 or so books of the Old Testament

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 07:25 AM

as far as i know though, the Torah which the Jewish use, is the first 5 or so books of the Old Testament
yep, that was Bible Version 1 :)

werty

05-08-2004, 10:26 AM

I ask you this; is this the results of (a)God working in mysterious ways or just another example of random circumstance?

I would say that God has great plans for you, yes he does work in ways we cannot understand, but you must have faith in Him and trust that what he is doing with your life is the absolute most perfect plan. He loves you more than you can imagine, your life may have been hard, but God is not punishing you or playing around with your life. God is all knowing, whatever he does is perfect, he has not messed up your life, you just haven't seen what he has planned for you yet, and when you do see it, you will understand and be thankful for what he has given you and your family. :)

werty

05-08-2004, 10:31 AM

Thank you.

and you don't have to name him God or call him Jesus ??

As long as the "spirit" is good within you, then you'll be fine.

Guess what, I've found more good actheists and agnostics than I've found Christians and I've done a lot of work in both. While at Uni I worked with the poor living on the streets to help them - it was through a Christian organisation which didn't feel it necessary to convert them !

In the name of Christian Missionary, the churches and their leaders have oppressed more people than Hitler, Saddam and all the rest combined !!

As Christians we still can be guilty of using the "spiritual hig ground" to consider ourselves superior and others should "be changed" to conform.
And yet Jesus had a prostitute wash his feet and STILL some don't get it !!!!
I never said i was superior to others here, i actually admitted that i have sinned, cause we all have, and i am no one to judge you guys, i'm just trying to witness to you :)

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 10:33 AM

I never said i was superior to others here, i actually admitted that i have sinned, cause we all have, and i am no one to judge you guys, i'm just trying to witness to you :)
You need to view the world through other eyes.
When a Christian says to an someone NOT in the church , you will only go to heaven if you come to Christ. You're saying to them that you are in a club that is better and they can join if they want.
THAT is seen as "superiority and arrogance" by many !
They just seldom say it to their faces :)

werty

05-08-2004, 10:37 AM

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 10:38 AM

I would say that God has great plans for you,
Jump back 70 years ...... did the same God have great plans for Hitler ??

See the statement is ILLOGICAL and goes against reasoning.
Trying to justify a Christian faith with platitudes and blind statments only weakens His word (IMHO).

Think about what you written that follows and apply the same logic and try to justify it ....

yes he does work in ways we cannot understand, but you must have faith in Him and trust that what he is doing with your life is the absolute most perfect plan. He loves you more than you can imagine, your life may have been hard, but God is not punishing you or playing around with your life. God is all knowing, whatever he does is perfect, he has not messed up your life, you just haven't seen what he has planned for you yet, and when you do see it, you will understand and be thankful for what he has given you and your family. :)

See ?

So a God-in-control of all things doesnt' make sense really.

A God who gave us choice - as He did - then doesn't guide our every step.
But life gives us opportunities we can take or not.
In those choices we are either doing good things for ourselves and others or not.
For those with strong belief in an active God will see that the OPPORTUNITIES are the things God offers.
So we can "evolve" if we want to :)

werty

05-08-2004, 10:39 AM

You need to view the world through other eyes.
When a Christian says to an someone NOT in the church , you will only go to heaven if you come to Christ. You're saying to them that you are in a club that is better and they can join if they want.
THAT is seen as "superiority and arrogance" by many !
They just seldom say it to their faces :)

well if where you live, if thats how Christ and Christains are seen, then i stiil think that persons heart is hardened towards God, the devil will do aything to make Christainity have a bad name

werty

05-08-2004, 10:43 AM

Jump back 70 years ...... did the same God have great plans for Hitler ??

See the statement is ILLOGICAL and goes against reasoning.
Trying to justify a Christian faith with platitudes and blind statments only weakens His word (IMHO).

Think about what you written that follows and apply the same logic and try to justify it ....

See ?

So a God-in-control of all things doesnt' make sense really.

A God who gave us choice - as He did - then doesn't guide our every step.
But life gives us opportunities we can take or not.
In those choices we are either doing good things for ourselves and others or not.
For those with strong belief in an active God will see that the OPPORTUNITIES are the things God offers.
So we can "evolve" if we want to :)

God is in control of all things, and yes he has given us choice, if God wasn't in control of all things there would be total chaos all over the world- that makes total sense to me

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 10:52 AM

I have to disagree with you though, Jesus said that "no one will come to the father except by me", and the Jews and Islams do not believe Christ was God's only son. Jews and Islamics beleive that they are saved through good works, Christianity is done through faith.
Well I 100% disagree with that laast statement.
The priests who have abused boys in the Catholic church had a 100% "faith" and a 0% "good works".
You've a strongly biased view of other religions and in part of your own.
It's clear you are immovable in those thoughts and mis-undesrtanding of others.

To return to your facts.
Yep, Jewish and Islamic faith sees Jesus as another prophet and only that.

All faiths have factions which claim only following the literal views in their books of faith are the way to salvation.
There are those which claim only by doing good works in their faith will salvation be earned. ( and in Christianity it is accpetance of Him as saviour that is the prima-face entrance test for the faith)
Claiming a fundamental differnce between the 3 religions as you have claimed is dangerous and only stresses the differences and not recogniseing the HUGE commonality.
Only through moving the commonality forward will we progress.

THIS was the fundamental realisation and agreement in the meeting in Neciea in 300AD where the Creed of Nicen was produced which proclaimed the fundamental tents of Christianity. You should realise that before then there were major factions of difference in the way the teachings of Christ were being spread. Remember that some of these were only within 1 or 2 generations of His death !! Romas, Corinthians, Theolosians and oteres are all boks in the NT which are reports of letters written to the members of churches in those regiosn who were straying from the path. So within ONE generation we had differences. All within groups believeing they were following Jesus. So being intransigent on the Bible TODAY towards dufferences seems atrange to me. If you feel strongly why not study what you refuse to embrace. You may be in for a surprise :)

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 10:54 AM

stoppping typing for a while. Apologies for the mess in the last post. Will fix it later, RSI flaring up :(

The Tuner

05-08-2004, 12:17 PM

Just for the record, Judaism, Islam and Christianity are the one and same God.

The differences are Christianity accepted Christ as God-on-Earth and the route to salvation. Islam accepted a later prophet and his writings in the Qu'oran as the "gospel". One way to look at iti is Jews have the Bible Version 1, Christians have Bible Version 2 and Islam is Bible Version 3. I kind of liked that description to ease tensions between the factions :)

lovely description matra...very nice indeed...mind if i use it in my debates sumtime?

and werty, jus one favor if u dont mind....it's "christians, jews and muslims", not islamics. thnx

and as for the idea that everything is gods devine plan....id like to present the muslim view here. atleast, this is the view held by shi'ite muslims; i believe sunni muslims have a slightly different outlook (misho, cud u please correct me if im wrong?) God created man. gave him brains, intellect, strength, conscience, wisdom, created a guide (Prophets). he created angels, and he created wat is known in english as the devil. in arabic, however, the devil and the other creatures like him are called jinn, who are human in almost everything except their state, they are supernatural while we are natural (taking our life as natural, of course). these jinn have the same freedom that man does to choose between good and bad actions. the devil, satan, made a choice to go against God. we believe satan was alive from before the creation of adam, and will remain alive till the time of the re-appearance of the messiah, who will then kill him. we believe that man chooses his own actions. he is not forced to walk a certain path, nor coerced by a supernatural power to commit a certain action. God's infinite knowledge is another matter, just because He knows doesnt mean He made it happen. tht is where the belief of heaven and hell come in...man makes his choice in this world, he lives his life as per he chooses, he dies, comes to God's "court", he is judged, and then rewarded or punished accordingly. God created the cause-and-effect relationship...He will not interfere in the daily lives of humans EXCEPT when there is a need. He has sent guides, the Bibles ver. 1, 2 & 3 (:D) and has given us the inborn guide to choose between right and wrong.
the final choice is ours.
and tht is what we wil be judged on.

Matt

05-08-2004, 12:24 PM

I never said i was superior to others here, i actually admitted that i have sinned, cause we all have, and i am no one to judge you guys, i'm just trying to witness to you :)

Did you create this thread so that you could preach to all of us? If so, that's inappropriate. You seemingly created a simple poll, but have turned it into a sermon of fire and brimstone. Manipulative to say the least.

Benz_Boy_1

05-08-2004, 12:58 PM

btw, i am muslim
me too

werty

05-08-2004, 02:07 PM

who gave me a negative rep, and didn't post there name after it?

werty

05-08-2004, 02:20 PM

Did you create this thread so that you could preach to all of us? If so, that's inappropriate. You seemingly created a simple poll, but have turned it into a sermon of fire and brimstone. Manipulative to say the least.

i didn't start this thread, haven't started a poll, and how is it inappropriate

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 02:20 PM

lovely description matra...very nice indeed...mind if i use it in my debates sumtime?
Well the bible version isn't mine, don't remember where I heard it but it was in a theological debate with someone else :)
I tend to get into these with engineers and scientist as *I* am seen as 'odd' in believeing in God *AND* in science.
Why so many people are brought up to belive thety are in opposition I don't know.
BBC Radio 4 program had a discourse on Islamic history and brought to the attention of the listener the openness and advancment in Muslim higher schools - there was a name for them - and the shame that it seems to have been lost as most of them wre closed down in recent history.

Not just in Muslim countries, but I've been fortunate and travelled alot on business and my curiosty usually means as well as eating all the local food and drink ( some VERY odd ) I usually meeta locals and invariably end up in deep discussions ( jet lag doesn't make me tired but I do end up awake a lot - so usually end up talking to hotel staff, esp. bar staff :) )

The one thing I have been ashamed off is to find local history which has been ignored and actively DESTROYED when Christian Missionaries came to "save them". So many were MUCH more "advanced" than Europe at the time. just not technologically !! and we convinced them to turn their back on that to be "saved" in Christ. It was wrong and I doubt any Christian would not feel remorse in visitng places. I was almost in tears looking at Mayan history in Mexico and how it had been destroyed by Spanish expansion "for the glory of God"

jinn, who are human in almost everything except their state, they are supernatural while we are natural (taking our life as natural, of course). these jinn have the same freedom that man does to choose between good and bad actions.
didn't realise that of jinn, I though they were all bad, just to differnet extremes. Thanks for that.

the Bibles ver. 1, 2 & 3 (:D) and has given us the inborn guide to choose between right and wrong.
the final choice is ours.
and tht is what we wil be judged on.
Nicely put. Can I in turn use the phrase "inborn guide" :)

Matt

05-08-2004, 03:41 PM

i didn't start this thread, haven't started a poll, and how is it inappropriate

My bad about you starting this thread. I was mistaken.

However, I stand by my opinion that you are acting rather inappropriately by preaching to everyone about their beliefs.

werty

05-08-2004, 04:02 PM

My bad about you starting this thread. I was mistaken.

However, I stand by my opinion that you are acting rather inappropriately by preaching to everyone about their beliefs.

i am merely stating, that my God is not the same as the god of other religions, sorry if i have offended you, i am only trying to witness to people who want to know more about my God

Matt

05-08-2004, 04:04 PM

i am merely stating, that my God is not the same as the god of other religions, sorry if i have offended you, i am only trying to witness to people who want to know more about my God

No, you're not trying to say that. What you're trying to say is that all of the other religions are wrong and that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is going to hell. It is absolutely true that the God in your religion is the same God who is part of Judaism and Islam. The issue of Christ is the big difference.

Matra et Alpine

05-08-2004, 04:29 PM

i am merely stating, that my God is not the same as the god of other religions, sorry if i have offended you, i am only trying to witness to people who want to know more about my God
and what evidence do you have that your God is different ?
Many Christian churches use the same bible and yet profess different faith.
Hell in Scotland we've got 3 unique to Scotland !!
So is only one of them the real God and as we share the KJIV root as the source of which texts and books make up the bible then how can SOOO many churches be wrong and one right ?
So if you accept the different Christian churches are the smae God ( though different ) then why not Islam ( same God, just different prophets ( Shi-ite and Sunni differences are over the lineage of Prophets ) ) ?
Jesus was baptised a Jew, so is he doomed for following the wrong God ?
We all worship the same God, Gaia, Budha, Allah, and our selves.
It's the schism created by that kind of "one God and it's mine
that is the downfall of man and the lesson we ALL need to learn for salvation to come to us all. Sorry but you need to grasp how many men, women and children have been killed in this world under the guise of God-correctness to realise how terrifying such a staunch view is !!

GT500

05-08-2004, 06:26 PM

who gave me a negative rep, and didn't post there name after it?

that's one reason i resigned from this thread, I knew something like this would start happening. =/

Falcon500

05-09-2004, 03:52 AM

I apologisetowertythat was a quite from megotmea i was haveing a go at in the thread...and whilei hada go i didnt attackany repjust to clairfy...

Falcon500

05-09-2004, 03:55 AM

i am merely stating, that my God is not the same as the god of other religions, sorry if i have offended you, i am only trying to witness to people who want to know more about my God
But in theiry isnt it true.....apprentlythe muslams believe in the same omni present being we do...also the jews believe in our omnipresent beings son....so why cant it be true just asking?

UK CARS

05-09-2004, 04:27 AM

Ive had shits more intresting than this....... :p

megotmea7

05-09-2004, 05:09 AM

just for the record i havent given out a negetive rep to this date :)

anyway, ill take a little turn here. this is one of the BIGGEST turnoffs of organized religion. its fine with me if people belive what they want but when they go so far as to come up with ways to brainwash people into their religion. ill let you guys come to your own conclusions here. and yes at first i thought this was a joke when i saw it about a year ago, but is 100% real...
take special note of the "objectives"
i like the one where they claim dinosaurs still exist, and they were all herbavors, also look at the little flash animations for kids... its pretty scary really
LINK (http://objective.jesussave.us/)

megotmea7

05-09-2004, 05:20 AM

heres a couple you might find very offencive from the "4kidz" (http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html) section:
"Hey, Habu...
How many gods do you have?"

*the elephant "habu" replies* "i dont know... i lost count!"

"Wouldn't you rather have just one God who loves you a bunch than a bunch of gods that don't love you at all?

Jesus loves everybody, even the unsaved like Habu! Remember to pray for Habu and others like him that they may find Jesus and accept Him into their hearts"

heres one on athiests:
Spiritual Safety Tip
What should you do if you find an Atheist?

*Mr. Gruff the grumpy athiest goat says* "I dont belive in anything! Im staying home on sunday!"

"atheirsts such as crotchety old Mr. Gruff think they have it all figured out...
...but then why are they always so sad?"

*spiritual safety tip for kids*
"If you find an Atheist in your neighborhood,
TELL A PARENT OR PASTOR RIGHT AWAY!

You may be moved to try and witness to
these poor lost souls yourself, however
AVOID TALKING TO THEM!

Atheists are often very grumpy and bitter and will lash out at children or they may even try to trick you into neglecting God's Word.

Very advanced witnessing techniques are needed for these grouches. Let the adults handle them."

you can get a good laugh from the "profesor giraffinstein" one also

also in the "objective mall" you can learn how to profile people as the easiest to be brainwashed!

DarkPhenix

05-09-2004, 05:21 AM

When I started this thread and this poll my intention wasn't create discussions between the members of the forum.. :(

werty

05-09-2004, 09:55 AM

i agree, i think i'm done with this thread. If anyone would like to continue discussing things with me, just email me :)

Lets get back to cars ;)

crisis

05-09-2004, 05:42 PM

Well that is why he calls us Christians to minister to the World, so those tribes people will go to heaven. Here is an interesting fact you might like.

A missionary woman i met was trying to reach a tribe in the africa that had not been in contact with the rest of the world for as long as anyone had records; a very long time. When she and the others went into the village they began work immediately. after many years she was able to communicate with them. What she found out was that the tribes people started talking about the beginning of the world. Curious she kept asking them questions about it. They revealed to her that they knew all about the , adam and eve, the fall of man, the tower of babble, the flood, etc. The tribe only had one God, it was the Lord. They didn't need missionaries is my point, they already beleived and had faith in him.

Maybe not all tribes have continued to beleive in God, but God does not completely give up on them. Here are ways God reveals himself to evryone.
1.Nature
2.Conscience
3.Vision's
4. Incarnate Word(Christ)
5. The written word (Bible)
6. Spoken word (God's Creation)
7. alot of others :)
Missionaries also brought with them som e really excellent diseases that all but wiped out some civilisations. This is where religion becomes most dangerous. While everyone is entitled to follow whatever belief they like, it is when those beliefs are forced on others that religion is bad. Despite the trite explanations and decrees issued by pius church leader, the idiotic analogies ie "how does the the world turn?" (sorry Werty), indignant protestations of blashphemy to those who dare question, there is no defintite proof that god exists. Other than the scriptures , there is nothing. Claimed miracles and manifestations of acts of god are just as likely coincedence. So missionaries have no right to force people to believe. They are not saving these people soles my and many others opinion and ours count as much as the opinions of the religious leaders. Likewise quoting passages of the bible to people who dont believe in it is somewhat futile.

Misho

05-09-2004, 05:49 PM

Islam ( same God, just different prophets ( Shi-ite and Sunni differences are over the lineage of Prophets ) ) ?
!!

i dont understand what u meant by that last part about the differences. can u explain it for me please ?

crisis

05-09-2004, 05:53 PM

i dont understand what u meant by that last part about the differences. can u explain it for me please ?
Can I have a shot? This comes from a docco I saw about Mohammad and the reason I got was that when Mohammed died he said that his followers should not dietise (?) someone else in his place. One side followed his wished but the other group had a new leader. Is that close?

ace

05-09-2004, 06:13 PM

When I started this thread and this poll my intention wasn't create discussions between the members of the forum.. :(
To raze a topic such as religion, politics or finance is guarantied to invite debate, in saying that I think the topic was handled in a mature and respectful way and if this is an indication of the youth of the world I hold hi hopes for a brighter future.
My congratulations on not letting this debate turn into an insulting match such as so many political and religious debates do.

:)

Misho

05-11-2004, 08:14 AM

Can I have a shot? This comes from a docco I saw about Mohammad and the reason I got was that when Mohammed died he said that his followers should not dietise (?) someone else in his place. One side followed his wished but the other group had a new leader. Is that close?

was that the documentary shown on The National Geographic Channel ??

Anyways, i couldnt find any definition for something close to "dietise" !!
but generally speaking, what u mentioned seems to be correct. the main difference between the Sunni and Shia'a Muslims is in the successors of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH).
After the Prophet's death, his close friend and first male to embrace Islam, Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq became the sort of leader for the considerably small muslim empire. He was followed by Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, Usman Ibn Affan then Ali Ibn Aby Talib (the prophet's relative).
Without getting into much details, the Shia'as beleive that Ali was the rightful succesor of the Prophet after his death and not Abu Bakr. They generally have higher affection for the Prophet's family than the Sunni muslims.