What that car should have been in first place?!

[LeonOfTheDead]

since in a lot of discussion the point was that some cars should have been in first place like others, even from the same manufacturer, I thought that it should be a good idea to create this thread.
rules are very simple: mention one car and another one (concept or production one) which should have replaced the first since its appearance, and why. pics would be appreciated.
For example:
Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Vs Reventon
they share the same underpinning and power train, but the body style is totally different, and since a lot of enthusiasts actually think Lamborghini is one of the more outrageous manufacturers, the LP640 appears a little too much "educated" in front of its more extreme evolution which maintains the same "practicality" and level of "comfort".

[LeonOfTheDead]

and than there is the Mecedes-benx E Class Vs CLS
while the first is a common sedan like an Audi A6, a Jaguar XF or a lot of other contenders, the CLS "create" a new segment of sedan whit just 4 seats because it's actually very diffiult to see 5 people inside a sedan nowadays. and then the CLS is also better looking and has a better drive, since it's more focused than what a "common sedan" as the E CLass can actually be to be sell.

[Ferrer]

Maserati MC12 v Birdcage Pininfarina:
Maseratis have always been about the elegance and beauty. And the production MC12 is anything but those. Created for motorsport it was based on Enzo mechanicals. And then in 2005 Pininfarina stunned the world with the Birdcage 75th Anniversary, which is what the MC12 should've been from the start. Impossibly long and low it still looks aboslutely gorgeus 3 years on.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I'm not so sure about this:
Ferrari Enzo Vs Pininfarina 612 P4/5
even if the Enzo is all about F1 technology and style, it isn't a truly good looking car, as you would expect it to be since it's a Ferrari, and designed by Pininfarina too. but it's far from being a passionate car and it isn't even so entertaining to drive, AFAIK, like F1 cars...
while on the other hand, the P4/5 is the best reinterpretation of a classic car, and one of the best looking I have to say. it has style, presence, charisma, those curves, and it's yelling "power" from every corners, but it's also elegant and very "female", as all the best looking car should be, imo.

[Ferrer]

Ferrari Enzo Vs Pininfarina 612 P4/5
I disagree with that one.

I don't like the Enzo, but the P4/5 while a good looking car it's too retro. It's as if Ferrari lacked ideas and then suddenly they came across a magazine from the 60's.

[LeonOfTheDead]

this is one of my favourite:
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti Vs Pininfarina 612 K
I am a fan of the standard 612, but I have to admit the 612 K has those minimal changes that makes it almost perfect, renewing a 3 years old car, which imo has a very aging design, you can feel the time passed since its unveiling just looking at it, but without astounding its look.
even if I would have prefer the Scaglietti to be the K, fortunately, it is far away from being similar to the Italdesign GG50

[LeonOfTheDead]

I disagree with that one.

I don't like the Enzo, but the P4/5 while a good looking car it's too retro. It's as if Ferrari lacked ideas and then suddenly they came across a magazine from the 60's.

Maybe you are right, but even if I see the point behind the Enzo, sometimes I feel like it's simply too much. The 612 P4/5 is for sure very retro, but it's the best revamped design I can remember now. it's mediterranean, while the Enzo is just "high-tech" without passion. but I'm not so sure too.

[faksta]

GG50 is one of the most ugly cars I've ever seen :(

[LeonOfTheDead]

this one, another little "fail", even if I would like to buy one one day...
Porsche Cayman Vs Studio Torino RK Coupè
and of course Porsche Boxter Vs Studio Torino RK Spyder

what can I say...the Studio Torino's are simply gorgeous.

[The_Canuck]

I like Studio Torino's Boxter a little, but definitely not their Cayman.

[LeonOfTheDead]

well this is quite obvious, but I'm still waiting official excuses from Pontiac for this car.
Pontiac Aztek Vs Burned Aztek

[LeonOfTheDead]

Maserati 4200 GT Vs Maserati Gransport
I'm aware they are basically the same car, but the first is too similar to the old 3200 GT but without those stylish boomerang-style led rear lights.
the minor are very few between these two cars, but I think they would have helped the 4200 Gt to sell more in the first time, but at the end of its life they would have needed something else to revamp it a little instead of the Gransport.

[Ferrer]

Maserati 4200 GT Vs Maserati Gransport
I'm aware they are basically the same car, but the first is too similar to the old 3200 GT but without those stylish boomerang-style led rear lights.
the minor are very few between these two cars, but I think they would have helped the 4200 Gt to sell more in the first time, but at the end of its life they would have needed something else to revamp it a little instead of the Gransport.
What they should have done is keep the boomerang rear lights. They were fantastic.

The replacement units were average...

[LeonOfTheDead]

What they should have done is keep the boomerang rear lights. They were fantastic.

The replacement units were average...

IIRC it was US regulations' fault. they couldn't homologate those lights, AFAIK. too bad:(

[Ferrer]

IIRC it was US regulations' fault. they couldn't homologate those lights, AFAIK. too bad:(
Damn Americans.

Not only can't they drive but they can't homolgate beautiful cars.

Damn.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Horacio, please, don't kill me.
Pagani Zonda C12 Vs Pagani Zonda F
the car are both beautiful, I love Pagani's cars, but even if you think the first C12 is good looking, what to say about it once you saw the last F?
this car is becoming better and better with every step further, it's just a shame it's very close to be substituted.

[Ferrer]

Horacio, please, don't kill me.
Pagani Zonda C12 Vs Pagani Zonda F
the car are both beautiful, I love Pagani's cars, but even if you think the first C12 is good looking, what to say about it once you saw the last F?
this car is becoming better and better with every step further, it's just a shame it's very close to be substituted.
I think that actually Pagani is losing the plot a bit with the Zonda. It seems like it's turning into the latest special edition extraordinaire. Mustang beware!

The original Zonda in any of its variants, but especially the 7.3 S, was simply spot on. It was just everything you could expect and want from a supercar. It made the Enzo look nerdy and the Murcielago look boring. The Zonda simply blowed them into middle of next week.

The amount of drama, excitement, styling, panache and attention to detail is simply unparalleled even today. There may be faster cars, cars that handle better or cars which are more technologically advanced, but the Zonda does what a supercar should do even with only looking at it. It makes you feel special.

Arguably the F may have been an improvement but nevertheless the original cannot be forgotten or underestimated.

[NSXType-R]

since in a lot of discussion the point was that some cars should have been in first place like others, even from the same manufacturer, I thought that it should be a good idea to create this thread.
rules are very simple: mention one car and another one (concept or production one) which should have replaced the first since its appearance, and why. pics would be appreciated.
For example:
Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Vs Reventon
they share the same underpinning and power train, but the body style is totally different, and since a lot of enthusiasts actually think Lamborghini is one of the more outrageous manufacturers, the LP640 appears a little too much "educated" in front of its more extreme evolution which maintains the same "practicality" and level of "comfort".

To a certain extent I agree that the Reventon is more "Lamborghini" of the two, but both are equally good looking, and both are worthy of their badges.

The E and CLS classes I talked about already. Since both are being built and equally easy to be attained, it's a moot point.

Meanwhile, the Maseratis. I don't see the beauty in the Birdcage. I hear about its lineage all the time. I don't see any of it in its supposed ancestors. Not all that great looking either. I liked where they wanted to go with the bottom half. Then you get to the greenhouse and wonder what happened there? All glass, no doors? I don't mind that it's low. It's supposed to be low. But I prefer a more conventional approach.

p 4/5 vs. Enzo. P 4/5 wins. Hands down. The Enzo looks clumsy next to it. It looks like a klutz. It actually is slab sided.

The Scaglietti isn't a car I like in any iteration. But the concept is alright I guess.

[NSXType-R]

Studio Torino? What Studio Torino? Why mess with perfection? Besides slight cosmetic changes/paint changes, I see absolutely no difference between the two. I'd take the original thanks.

Aztec. No comment. :D

Maserati- Don't know enough to comment, don't see the difference between the two. They're both good looking though.

Pagani Zonda- They look about the same out there, perform about the same, drive about the same. Don't see much difference either.

[RacingManiac]

Maserati MC12 v Birdcage Pininfarina:
Maseratis have always been about the elegance and beauty. And the production MC12 is anything but those. Created for motorsport it was based on Enzo mechanicals. And then in 2005 Pininfarina stunned the world with the Birdcage 75th Anniversary, which is what the MC12 should've been from the start. Impossibly long and low it still looks aboslutely gorgeus 3 years on.


Concept car vs a homologation special, totally moot point.....Although Maserati/Ferrari did make a mistake in MC12's design: it didn't conform to any rules, which meant it cannot compete in any series properly without modifications. And it is still ineligible for ACO/Le Mans competition, and too slow for something like Super GT....

a racecar made for nothing....

[Ferrer]

a racecar made for nothing....
Therefore if it more or less failed its point, why not forget it and change the approach? :)

[ruim20]

What they should have done is keep the boomerang rear lights. They were fantastic.

The replacement units were average...

Agreed, the redesigned lights where rubish, the 3200 was so much elegant, the new lights just ruined the hole car for me.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Studio Torino? What Studio Torino? Why mess with perfection? Besides slight cosmetic changes/paint changes, I see absolutely no difference between the two. I'd take the original thanks.

here you can see how much the two cars are different. (posted pics)



Pagani Zonda- They look about the same out there, perform about the same, drive about the same. Don't see much difference either.

actually, the first C12 had "only" 394 hp from the standard 6.0 liter V12 from the old S-Class.
IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F, the level of details (perfect details imo) is astonishing, it's the best evolution I can remember now, from the same car, not like the 911 saga...

[clutch-monkey]

IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F
agreed, it's predecessors were a bit wacky and unresolved; the F neatened everything up and made it awesome imo.

[NSXType-R]

here you can see how much the two cars are different. (posted pics)




actually, the first C12 had "only" 394 hp from the standard 6.0 liter V12 from the old S-Class.
IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F, the level of details (perfect details imo) is astonishing, it's the best evolution I can remember now, from the same car, not like the 911 saga...

If you need a diagram to show me the changes, then that's too few on its own. :D

Original still wins in my book.

Performance wise it is way different, but generally speaking from the exterior they kinda look the same. Although yes, the V12 in the first car is a huge difference from the F.

Talking about the exterior, I wonder how they do in the wind tunnel? The headlights aren't exactly streamlined.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Talking about the exterior, I wonder how they do in the wind tunnel? The headlights aren't exactly streamlined.

think about the MC12, sometimes the headlights are without the cover...

[fpv_gtho]

1999 FTE T-Series vs 2001 FTE T3 T-Series

Ford launched a failed attempt with their unloved AU series Falcon to match Holdens upmarket sports brand HSV. It might have worked, but they released the cars with underpowered engines that only provided 200kw for the TE50 and 220kw for the TS/TL50. Holden and HSV had just recieved first shipment of GM's LS1 V8, which in stock tune produced 250kw for the base HSV models whilst Holden ran a detuned version matching FTE's best 220kw figure. It took them 2 years before they finally could match HSV's firepower, by developing a stroker kit for the now out of production 302/5L V8, bumping capacity up to 5.6L and allowing a power figure of 250kw. The car was so good, it was still faster in the right hands than the later released BA model FPV GT which superceded the FTE TE50 in the marketplace.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Lancia Nuova Delta Vs Lancia Delta Vs Fiat Bravo Vs Fiat Croma
My idea is this: the new Delta is a good looking car and it seems to be a good car too, from the first review. but it appears it has the wrong name, since everyone is connecting it to the old Delta Integrale, so rallies and world championships. so that's my idea: the new Delta should have been the new Fiat Bravo, that is to say, same platform but shortened, and maybe with 3 doors. at that point an HF version could be very possible, and with it a WRC version to use in the rallies but in a different championship from the Abarth S2000.
in this case the actual new Delta should become the replacement for the old Dedra.
and at that point, what to do with Fiat?! the Delta is simply to big for it, since it's nearly as long as the Croma, so there are more options to evaluate.
a double version of the Croma, SWB and LWB, together with the actual bravo, maybe limited to the 3 doors variant. I like the idea.
another idea could be to enlarge even more the new Delta to replace the aging Multipla.
thoughts?!

[LeonOfTheDead]

and this is a gift for those who actually think Delta is only a sport car.
look at the differences...;)

[Ferrer]

actually, the first C12 had "only" 394 hp from the standard 6.0 liter V12 from the old S-Class.
IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F, the level of details (perfect details imo) is astonishing, it's the best evolution I can remember now, from the same car, not like the 911 saga...
The peak of the 911 family was reached in 1972 with the Carrera RS. Since then nothing has bettered it and nothing ever will probably. On the other hand the 993 was a nice highlight too.

Lancia Nuova Delta Vs Lancia Delta Vs Fiat Bravo Vs Fiat Croma
My idea is this: the new Delta is a good looking car and it seems to be a good car too, from the first review. but it appears it has the wrong name, since everyone is connecting it to the old Delta Integrale, so rallies and world championships. so that's my idea: the new Delta should have been the new Fiat Bravo, that is to say, same platform but shortened, and maybe with 3 doors. at that point an HF version could be very possible, and with it a WRC version to use in the rallies but in a different championship from the Abarth S2000.
in this case the actual new Delta should become the replacement for the old Dedra.
and at that point, what to do with Fiat?! the Delta is simply to big for it, since it's nearly as long as the Croma, so there are more options to evaluate.
a double version of the Croma, SWB and LWB, together with the actual bravo, maybe limited to the 3 doors variant. I like the idea.
another idea could be to enlarge even more the new Delta to replace the aging Multipla.
thoughts?!
The Lancia Delta is a fine car. For a Fiat that is.

I'm sorry but I've never liked it. And it's not the fact that it's a Bravo underneath or that it has a torsion beam rear suspension. No, what's worse of all in my opinion is that after unveiling the Granturismo Carcerano and the Granturismo Stilnovo the new Delta doesn't feel special at all. An opportunity missed in ym opinion. Altough it seems that now they want to introduce a million sportscars which I don't quite understand.

[LeonOfTheDead]

The peak of the 911 family was reached in 1972 with the Carrera RS. Since then nothing has bettered it and nothing ever will probably. On the other hand the 993 was a nice highlight too.

I'm more into the 964


No, what's worse of all in my opinion is that after unveiling the Granturismo Carcerano and the Granturismo Stilnovo the new Delta doesn't feel special at all. An opportunity missed in ym opinion. Altough it seems that now they want to introduce a million sportscars which I don't quite understand.

too many things changed between those concepts and these days, but I admit I would l like a 3 door version very similar to the Stilnovo Concept...--> HF --> WRC

[70cuda88]

2006 Roush 427 Ford Mustang vs. 2008 Saleen S302E Ford Mustang

Both amazing performers, but the new saleen just smoked the roush in performance this year with 185 more horsepower and imo much better looks

[LeonOfTheDead]

Porsche Cayenne Vs Fornasari RR
I know, this is a weird comperison, but I hope you'll get my point.
forget about the need for money of Porsche, and the silly people who buy th Cayenne.
it isn't a Porsche, that's for sure, eve if it handle well, as a SUV of course, but it's basicly a VW Touareg, with VW (original) and Audi (modified) engines, comfy interiors and...nothing more, from my point of view. but Porsche do have some "rally heritage" with the old 911 and the experimental 959 at the Paris-Dakar, so my idea is that they should have built a proper tout terrain car, with eventually a more comfortable version to satisfy the market and obtain a bigger selling number.
so, imho, they should have built a Fornasari in first place. I am aware that the Fornasari is kinda ugly, but the Cayenne isn't good looking in my book. I'm talking about the characteristics of the car, it's ability in off-road. but with Porsche engineering capabilities and refinements.
btw, the Fornasari factory is quite near where I used to live in Padua, four years ago, with my parents, but I never saw one.

[Ferrer]

some "rally heritage"
Some? They won the International constructors championship in 1970 and the Montecarlo Rally four times.

The problem with the Cayenne is that any Porsche that doesn't have a boxer engine behind the seats isn't a Porsche.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Some? They won the International constructors championship in 1970 and the Montecarlo Rally four times.

I was rhetorical...;)


The problem with the Cayenne is that any Porsche that doesn't have a boxer engine behind the seats isn't a Porsche.

...I like the 928...but I understand that since Porsche insisted so much on the 911, everything different from it is difficult to accept as a Porsche. in a way, wrong marketing, for the enthusiast point of view. :)

[Ferrer]

...I like the 928...but I understand that since Porsche insisted so much on the 911, everything different from it is difficult to accept as a Porsche. in a way, wrong marketing, for the enthusiast point of view. :)
Well actually Porsche wanted to replace 911 with the 928. Up to the point that in the late 70's and early 80's they simply stopped developping and investing in the 911.

However people kept buying the 911 and that prompted Porsche to start spending money in the aging 911 again. They first introduced the full convertible 911 Cabriolet in 1983 and the rest is history.

And also the 911 has an illustrious racing history. The 928 has almost no racing history to speak of. Finally the 911 survived the 928.

In my view if your cars have defining characterisitcs better stick to them. It'd be like actually buying Lotus which isn't a lightweight sportscar. The 928 is a good car but if I want a front engined rear wheel drive V8 Grand Tourer I'll buy a Maserati or something.

[LeonOfTheDead]

In my view if your cars have defining characterisitcs better stick to them. It'd be like actually buying Lotus which isn't a lightweight sportscar. The 928 is a good car but if I want a front engined rear wheel drive V8 Grand Tourer I'll buy a Maserati or something.

ok, good point, you convinced me :D

in this case, the message for Porsche is: stop doing over 100.000 cars a year. stop doing silly SUV to improve selling numbers and do not introduce hybrid and diesel version of that SUV to low your emissions.
actually, I think that without the Cayenne the number of cars sold per year could be so low that they wouldn't need to low the emission levels. probably eve the average emission level would be lower.

[LeonOfTheDead]

My last victim:
new BMW 7 Series Vs aging BMW 5 Series
I looked at the pics and videos of the new 7 series in the last couple of days, and besides some critics to its banal and ugly (in some parts, as the front air intake, imo) look, I have this feeling, especcially when looking at the ar moving in the videos: do it with a shorter bonnet and you would have the new 8still to be unveiled) 5 Series. the bonnet job would be possible since the 5 series never came with V12 engines.
what I mean is that the car look smaller than what it is but not in a good way, it appear less special, less expensive. maybe is because of it isn't so different from the previous E65 in the overall shape and interior. I was expecting another revolution. maybe it isn't to prevent another little flop on selling numbers.
I'm aware the new 5 series is far from being revealed, but this, the F01, in my mind, doesn't fit the role of being the new flagship in the BMW line-up.

[Ferrer]

BMWs are just fugly except the 3er Coupe.

And that's well... that's it, isn't it?

[faksta]

The 5 series could be much closer to a new 7 - I have some pics of one of its projects, will scan them as I get the possibility, as my main PC is not working now, so as scanner. The reason is a room refreshing, so maybe up to 1 week.

[LeonOfTheDead]

The 5 series could be much closer to a new 7 - I have some pics of one of its projects, will scan them as I get the possibility, as my main PC is not working now, so as scanner. The reason is a room refreshing, so maybe up to 1 week.

just yesterday I re-installed the OS (vista, unfortunately) in my notebook after an epic fail of the hard disk...the Hp customer service provided me the new hd since the pc it's only 5 months old, but since they don't perform the back up oh broken HD, it was up to me to save all my tons of gigabytes of pics, which is kinda of problem if your hd is broken. windows machine (both xp and vista) simply crashed or slowed down if connected to my hard disk both via motherboard or usb. a linux machine (ubuntu 7.1) told me that the volume was unmountable but that the data were not lost, while the Mac (intel) of my father simply read the disk allowing me to save all my data. wow.:eek:
after this, I gifted myself an external 750 GB Seagate for 92 €, 30% off.:cool:

with this, I lost 2 Hitachi, 3 Maxtor and 1 Western Digital hard disks:(

and, back on topic, I don't like the new 3 Series coupe too, the rear end is simply disproportioned, too small, looking at the front part. but I began to dislike BMW since two generations ago...

[Kitdy]

BMWs are just fugly except the 3er Coupe.

I've seen that car in person sometimes and each time it was an event for me - it is maybe the best looking car that I see on a somewhat regular basis.

[NSXType-R]

BMWs are just fugly except the 3er Coupe.

And that's well... that's it, isn't it?

So why'd you buy a 1 series two door hatch? :confused:

[Ferrer]

So why'd you buy a 1 series two door hatch? :confused:
Because it's brilliant to drive. Plus if I wanted rear drive in this size there was no other option.

And furthermore it's ugly, but bearable. Just.

[NSXType-R]

Because it's brilliant to drive. Plus if I wanted rear drive in this size there was no other option.

And furthermore it's ugly, but bearable. Just.

Did you get it with IDrive?

Love hate relationship. :D

[Ferrer]

Did you get it with IDrive?

Love hate relationship. :D
Nope it's pretty basic.

Just xenons, alloys and color coded bumpers.

[NSXType-R]

Nope it's pretty basic.

Just xenons, alloys and color coded bumpers.

Wow. It didn't even come with body colored bumpers...?

[LeonOfTheDead]

...never saw one without them in Italy...but in a way it wouldn't surprise me

[Ferrer]

...never saw one without them in Italy...but in a way it wouldn't surprise meI've seen some. In light colors they look especially bad.