2008 US Debates & Election

[f6fhellcat13]

I know most of you are tired of this election already but I wanted to create a thread for it anyway.
So, discuss.
I'll start.
McCain seemed on his back foot in the debate definately.
McCain suggested that if you like universal healthcare you are unAmerican(implied) and should move to Canada or UK. I couldn't tell how tongue-in-cheek this remark was.

If this thread has already been created, I did a very quick search and found nothing, feel free to delete it, mods.

Try to keep the hate to a minimum.

[cmcpokey]

i went to a large cafe/coffeeshop/bar (very cool place) to watch the debate. they gave out ping pong balls to everyone there watching, maybe about 100, and when McCain said something they didnt like they chucked the balls at the TV. it was a democrat heavy crowd, and proved to be very entertaining.

[scottie300z]

I'm not going to vote and yet I've watched two of the debates. I don't like either for president really. And everyone knows how my state will go anyways.

[f6fhellcat13]

Me too, this last one and the VP debate. I used to like Obama more than I do now, but I guess, if I could vote, I'd go for good 'ol Osama.

This is awesome hehehe:

[Turbo.Jenkens]

I'm not going to vote and yet I've watched two of the debates. I don't like either for president really. And everyone knows how my state will go anyways.

I agree with every word in this post

[f6fhellcat13]

**** Joe the Plumber.

[Wouter Melissen]

**** Joe the Plumber.

Yeah what happened to Joe Sixpack?

[nota]

Haha she says "Nookulah"



Who does that remind you of...

[Canam fan]

Socialism has worked so well in the banking system, free houses for everyone!, that I can't wait until we try it in healthcare, etc. Welcome to the U.S.S.A. Obama's comment about how the government needs to distribute the wealth just put me off completely. He has obviuosly never read the constitution. George Bush was awful but the next President will amost certainly be just as bad.

[Jack_Bauer]

Haha she says "Nookulah"



Who does that remind you of...

Kinda reminds me of this:

YouTube - Billy Connolly - How to say N U C L E A R (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qjS5bbKsyWI) (NOT work safe!)



Oh, and Tina Fey for President!

[MRR]

Whoever I vote for it won't be for Obama or McCain. Trying to decide between Bob Barr, Chuck Baldwin, or a Ron Paul write in.

[coolieman1220]

nader? if ur in the 45 states he is approved in!

oBamBam all the way!

[Rockefella]

I'm votin for mah n***a Obama

[baddabang]

**** Obama. I like my guns, and their rights. **** McCain too.

I look at the Democrats and say "this is the best you can come up with?" Then I look at the Republicans and say "this is the best you an come up with?" Then I look at both Vice Presidential candidates and begin to cry. I'd rather cast my vote for Hillary Clinton then a nigger or someone likely to suffer a coronary leaving Mrs. Winks-A-Lot as president.

I'm not voting. NY runs the train on the Republicans so it doesn't really matter.

[my porsche]

I'd rather cast my vote for Hillary Clinton then a nigger

Interesting.

Is Obama a competent politician? Depends on your views. If elected, will it be because of his competency and the voters' agreement with his policies? Absolutely not.

I really don't know enough about each candidate's policies to make an informed vote (I can't vote yet anyway) or judgment either way, however, it definitely seems to me, at least in having interacted with Obama supporters and from watching TV, that he's gotten so much support because he is the "cool candidate", because hey, "It'd be cool to have a black president!". None of the people I've talked to who plan to vote for him have any reasoning to explain it. This is about the best they can come up with;

"I'm voting for Obama!"
"Well, why?"
"Because McCain sucks, he's old."

...and this is the 18-22 year old voting base that is pretty much entirely for Obama, and has no idea why other than it being the cool thing to do.

He could be the greatest politician ever, and have the world's greatest fiscal policies, and he still would only get elected because he's hip.

Interesting video:
YouTube - Howard Stern Exposes Clueless Obama Supporters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhbH9IYirD0)

[Niko_Fx]

I gotta give it to Obama for keeping it cool throughout the whole debate while McCain desperately failed to put him down. He emphasized more on putting Obama down than answering questions, I wonder what his next strategy will be.... Jenny the waitress?

[Quiggs]

I fear for the future of this country. Either way. Stewart/Colbert 08.

CHANGE. HOPE. CHOPE. SOCIALISM.

[f6fhellcat13]

They way I see it, there's a somewhat considerable chance that either of them will die in office, Obama assassinated for being black or McCain assassinated for being old.

Palin vs. Biden?
Biden >> Palin

[Niko_Fx]

Interesting.

Is Obama a competent politician? Depends on your views. If elected, will it be because of his competency and the voters' agreement with his policies? Absolutely not.

I really don't know enough about each candidate's policies to make an informed vote (I can't vote yet anyway) or judgment either way, however, it definitely seems to me, at least in having interacted with Obama supporters and from watching TV, that he's gotten so much support because he is the "cool candidate", because hey, "It'd be cool to have a black president!". None of the people I've talked to who plan to vote for him have any reasoning to explain it. This is about the best they can come up with;

"I'm voting for Obama!"
"Well, why?"
"Because McCain sucks, he's old."

...and this is the 18-22 year old voting base that is pretty much entirely for Obama, and has no idea why other than it being the cool thing to do.

He could be the greatest politician ever, and have the world's greatest fiscal policies, and he still would only get elected because he's hip.

Interesting video:
YouTube - Howard Stern Exposes Clueless Obama Supporters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhbH9IYirD0)

Just like some people will say:

"I'm voting for McCain!"
"Well why?"
"Because Obama is black!"
"Because Obama is a muslim and was planted in the US, his studies financed by terrorists, etc etc... to ultimately become the US president and destroy the World"
"Because Palin is hot

Give me a break, you will find ignorance on either side... you must be talking to a bunch of idiots MP.

[f6fhellcat13]

Idiots seem to be quite prevalent.

[cmcpokey]

i wouldn't criticize anyone for choosing a candidate based on them agreeing with your principles, politics, or for specific programs. and to a lesser extent i wouldnt criticize someone for voting for the candidate that is the representative of the party they are members of, even if they don't particularly like that candidate.

the people, especially us young people (and the college age ones most of all) that call themselves democrats and have no idea what that means, or republicans and not know what principles the party was founded upon; those are who really get me angry. at least know where your candidate stands on the issues, or better, know what the issues are.

my single biggest peeve though, is that thinking that by voting for a fringe candidate you are somehow speaking your mind out against the 2 party system and will have your voice heard. that is false. 100% false. in the 2000 election the left was spilt between gore and nader. had nader not run, a majority of those votes would have fallen on gore, and it would have more than sealed the deal for him. conversely, in the 1992 election ross perot stol a large percentage of votes on the right, and lost the election for H.W. Bush. so what does that all mean? in our system, if you spit the votes on either the left or the right, that side will lose, and you will not have a representative in office for the majority.

example loosely based on the 2000 election:
you have 51% of the country on the left
you have 49% on the right.
there is a fringe candidate on the left (Nader) who takes 3%
the democrat gets 48% and the one on the right get the plurality
the minority rules.

that is called Duverger's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvergers_Law)

[Zytek_Fan]

I gotta give it to Obama for keeping it cool throughout the whole debate while McCain desperately failed to put him down. He emphasized more on putting Obama down than answering questions, I wonder what his next strategy will be.... Jenny the waitress?

Indeed.
Joe the plumber was an epic fail.


And so you guys know, Obama can't take away guns because it's the second amendment to the constitution and the Bill of Rights CANNOT be taken away.

[f6fhellcat13]

^But he can sure as hell limit them.

[Zytek_Fan]

^But he can sure as hell limit them.

It has to be approved by the House of Representatives and Congress ;)

I highly doubt he'd limit them any further than now. We don't need automatic weapons or armor piercing rounds.

[Spastik_Roach]

its amazing how much emphasis some people put on guns, so much that it would decide a vote on that one sole issue. kind of sad too. I don't think Obama's just hip or anything, I think he's a seriously competent politician and the exact sort of person that needs to be President. Neil Young thinks so too!

[my porsche]

Just like some people will say:

"I'm voting for McCain!"
"Well why?"
"Because Obama is black!"
"Because Obama is a muslim and was planted in the US, his studies financed by terrorists, etc etc... to ultimately become the US president and destroy the World"
"Because Palin is hot

Give me a break, you will find ignorance on either side... you must be talking to a bunch of idiots MP.
Yeah good example, only problem is the number of people who say is extremely small compared with the people who will vote Obama because it's cool. Just because YOU are informed and are voting for Obama because you agree with his policies doesn't mean the majority of young people voting for him are.

[The_Canuck]

Yeah good example, only problem is the number of people who say is extremely small compared with the people who will vote Obama because it's cool. Just because YOU are informed and are voting for Obama because you agree with his policies doesn't mean the majority of young people voting for him are.

Even if they are both bad choices...i mean just listen to McCain...

Obama is without a doubt the lesser of two evils for most people. If you think both canidates are bad, look at who'll do the worst.

PS, Americans don't know jack about socialism

[Zytek_Fan]

Even if they are both bad choices...i mean just listen to McCain...

Obama is without a doubt the lesser of two evils for most people. If you think both canidates are bad, look at who'll do the worst.

PS, Americans don't know jack about socialism

A lot of people think socialism = Communism :p

[The_Canuck]

A lot of people think socialism = Communism :p

Last time i checked your roads were funded by the government...and your schools...:p

[scottie300z]

Palin vs. Biden?
Biden >> Palin

But you have to keep in mind it's for the VP and this only matters if the VP acts like our current VP and has more control than the job describes. Palin of course will just go along for the ride and therefore can't really be in control of much or have a big influence on actual happenings. So in that sense maybe she should be VP.

[Niko_Fx]

Yeah good example, only problem is the number of people who say is extremely small compared with the people who will vote Obama because it's cool.

Proof? :confused:

There's probably hundreds of thousands of rednecks who would never ever listen to a word that Obama says simply because he's black. Trust me, there's enough ignorance on both sides.

[scottie300z]

Proof? :confused:

There's probably hundreds of thousands of rednecks who would never ever listen to a word that Obama says simply because he's black. Trust me, there's enough ignorance on both sides.

It doesn't take away from his point, which ya'll both have.

[cmcpokey]

I thought about starting a new thread for this, but figured it was more apt just to keep it all in one thread.

The L.A. Times and the Chicago Tribune both endorse Obama.

This is a big leap for both papers, the Times, a republican leaning paper, has not made an official endorsement since Nixon. The Tribune has never endorsed a Democrat in its history dating back to the 19th century.

With these, Obama has extended the newspaper endorsements to a better than 3:1 ratio, with 51 to McCain's 16 endorsements.

For a list updated this morning, see UPDATED DAILY ENDORSEMENT TALLY: Obama Widens Lead (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003875230)

[Fleet 500]

I thought about starting a new thread for this, but figured it was more apt just to keep it all in one thread.

The L.A. Times and the Chicago Tribune both endorse Obama.

This is a big leap for both papers, the Times, a republican leaning paper, has not made an official endorsement since Nixon. The Tribune has never endorsed a Democrat in its history dating back to the 19th century.

With these, Obama has extended the newspaper endorsements to a better than 3:1 ratio, with 51 to McCain's 16 endorsements.

For a list updated this morning, see UPDATED DAILY ENDORSEMENT TALLY: Obama Widens Lead (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003875230)
Since when has the L.A. Times been a Republican-leaning newspaper?

[LTSmash]

I'd have to say I don't really agree with economic equality. You deserve to keep what you work hard for. Sammy Slacker shouldn't be rewarded with a portion Wendy Workhorse's money.

[Niko_Fx]

I spoke to a Jewish lady yesterday, she said that Obama and his entire campaign are a bunch of liars, and that Muslims shouldn't have more power in this World, that you can't trust such people.

Talk about ignorance.

[henk4]

I spoke to a Jewish lady yesterday, she said that Obama and his entire campaign are a bunch of liars, and that Muslims shouldn't have more power in this World, that you can't trust such people.

Talk about ignorance.

Talking about liars, Colin Powell (remember his UN presentation??) has just endorsed Obama....one of the reasons being that Mrs Palin is not suitable to become president...

[Dino Scuderia]

The Colin endorsement has to put a hurt on McSenile....and a large amount of conservatives who have said they'd vote for Powell if he would run.

Even Peggy Noonan is now saying Palin is a failure as a VP choice.

[LTSmash]

The Colin endorsement has to put a hurt on McSenile....and a large amount of conservatives who have said they'd vote for Powell if he would run.

Even Peggy Noonan is now saying Palin is a failure as a VP choice.

I'm not sure that Palin was the best move at all. It was publicity stunt to get Hillary voters in my opinion. However, I do find all four of them to be unsuitable but McCain (through all of my political research) seems to be the slightly better person of the quartet.

[cmcpokey]

Talking about liars, Colin Powell (remember his UN presentation??) has just endorsed Obama....one of the reasons being that Mrs Palin is not suitable to become president...

i would like to point out, that he was given an order to do that, and did not agree with it, knew the evidence was false, and did not want to go into iraq at that time.

colin powell is a much better man than anybody else in the administration.

[henk4]

i would like to point out, that he was given an order to do that, and did not agree with it, knew the evidence was false, and did not want to go into iraq at that time.

colin powell is a much better man than anybody else in the administration.

I wanted to be ahead of people who would started in all seriousness to call Powell a liar, because of this....at least he had the guts to leave after GWB's first term.

[MRR]

I fear for the future of this country. Either way. Stewart/Colbert 08.

CHANGE. HOPE. CHOPE. SOCIALISM.

Yeah the people who worship Obama are akin to a cult thinking the god Obama will solve everything and pay for our college educations and healtcare (ahem with non-existent money). McCain is an old senile idiot who did a 180 degree turn on everything he used to believe in when the primaries came around so he can't be trusted either. Both McCain and Obama are morons and dangerous for our country and basically anyone would be better presidents than these two. Vote third party or independent

[f6fhellcat13]

I spoke to a Jewish lady yesterday, she said that Obama and his entire campaign are a bunch of liars, and that Muslims shouldn't have more power in this World, that you can't trust such people.

Talk about ignorance.
Yes, unfortunatley many of the old Jews in Florida have a natural distrust of the schvartzes bred into them.

I respect Colin Powell quite a bit for leaving after Term No. 1, and as I have said before, Palin is completly unsuited for the job.

EDIT:
Vote third party or independent
Just don't vote, it's easier.

[f6fhellcat13]

This demonstrates what Niko was saying a while back. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/us/politics/19palin.html)

[henk4]

This demonstrates what Niko was saying a while back. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/us/politics/19palin.html)

it seems that every country gets what it deserves. I pity the serious American, a dying breed obviously.

[f6fhellcat13]

it seems that every country gets what it deserves. I pity the serious American, a dying breed obviously.
The same men who are voting McCaon because they think Palin is hot are the ones who voted in Schwartzenegger because he's "like, totally awesome, dude!"

[MRR]

Just don't vote, it's easier.

That kind of attitude has kept the 2 party system in place for decades.

[f6fhellcat13]

Until another Bull Moose party or Ross Perot comes along, that's unfortunatley how it's gonna stay.

[drakkie]

i would like to point out, that he was given an order to do that, and did not agree with it, knew the evidence was false, and did not want to go into iraq at that time.

colin powell is a much better man than anybody else in the administration.

If he was so good, why did he still lie ? Career-saving selfishness ? Remember that his actions indirectly killed thousands of people ! If i would know it is false, i would definately NOT lie about it in such a situation !

[The_Canuck]

I can smell the smoke already.

[scottie300z]

That kind of attitude has kept the 2 party system in place for decades.

Not necessarily, just b/c they don't like the 2 parties that are running doesn't mean they like the 3rd but just aren't voting.

[cmcpokey]

That kind of attitude has kept the 2 party system in place for decades.

no, the constitution has kept the 2 party system... read my earlier post refuting exactly what you are a proponent of.

[f6fhellcat13]

If he was so good, why did he still lie ? Career-saving selfishness ? Remember that his actions indirectly killed thousands of people ! If i would know it is false, i would definately NOT lie about it in such a situation !
Just following orders... :(
Military mentality, maybe Pokey can comment on this more accurately.

Another interesting NY Times article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/weekinreview/19cohen.html)

[cmcpokey]

Just following orders... :(
Military mentality, maybe Pokey can comment on this more accurately.

Another interesting NY Times article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/weekinreview/19cohen.html)

i believe he was following orders. no matter where you are in rank, from VP to the most junior person in the military, the president is your boss, and you do what he says. you can protest, but when it comes down to it, you do what he says.

i am sure he disagreed behind closed doors, and protested strongly, but thats not the face you put to the public. a divided administration looks weak, and that is not in the cards in a neocon administration. dissent is not authorized. he was probably trying to prevent being railroaded by the neocons in the administration. even so, once he left the administration he had his character assasinated more than he deserved.

[baddabang]

I can smell the smoke already.


i would like to point out, that he was given an order to do that, and did not agree with it, knew the evidence was false, and did not want to go into iraq at that time.

colin powell is a much better man than anybody else in the administration.

It's a shame his son could not follow step.


no, the constitution has kept the 2 party system... read my earlier post refuting exactly what you are a proponent of.

There is nothing in the Constitution about political parties.

[cmcpokey]

It's a shame his son could not follow step.



There is nothing in the Constitution about political parties.

you're right. There is nothing in the constitution about parties. It does establish how elections will be decided though. Specifically the single member district, winner take all method. That, in turn, will lend itself to a two party system. As I explained in my earlier post I reference in the post you quoted.

Durvurger's Law. It is a political science thing, which happens to be what I studied in undergrad.

[kingofthering]

you're right. There is nothing in the constitution about parties. It does establish how elections will be decided though. Specifically the single member district, winner take all method. That, in turn, will lend itself to a two party system. As I explained in my earlier post I reference in the post you quoted.

Durvurger's Law. It is a political science thing, which happens to be what I studied in undergrad.

Yeah, but didn't one of the framers kinda see that parties would be inevitable?

Where did you study pol sci? My teacher studied it at UCSB and he knows jack shit about it. Yet he's teaching this so the above point maybe moot.

[cmcpokey]

Yeah, but didn't one of the framers kinda see that parties would be inevitable?

Where did you study pol sci? My teacher studied it at UCSB and he knows jack shit about it. Yet he's teaching this so the above point maybe moot.

Yeah, Washington thought that parties were a bad thing. divisive, conflict causing, and bad for the morale of the nation. However, he did think they were a necessary evil in order to promote debate, and generally lead to progress. Other constitutional congress members weren't as against them, but there were several that had a general mistrust of them.

I went to undergrad at Tulane. A decent school, with one of the best PoliSci programs in the South. I had a concentration in International Relations, so I am not an expert on American politics, but I did have a class or two on it.

[henk4]

I had a concentration in International Relations, so I am not an expert on American politics.
Anywhere else in the world these two topics are very closely related though;)

[cmcpokey]

i studied a lot of comparitive politics, so i actually learned more about european and asian systems than my own. i ended up studying Latin America more than any other region, and I was an expert on 1960s Chile.

[henk4]

i studied a lot of comparitive politics, so i actually learned more about european and asian systems than my own. i ended up studying Latin America more than any other region, and I was an expert on 1960s Chile.

So was getting rid of Allende a necessity?

[cmcpokey]

in my eyes, no. i am very pro-allende, and anti 1960s CIA.

[henk4]

in my eyes, no. i am very pro-allende, and anti 1960s CIA.
Very good to hear.

[f6fhellcat13]

in my eyes, no. i am very pro-allende, and anti 1960s CIA.
I don't think many people, after they hear of many of the CIA's doings, would be big fans of their conduct, especially during that era.

[cmcpokey]

Very good to hear.

i think that was a very low point in our nations history. there was a widespread fear of communism, and it was a destroy at all costs mentality. it is a mentality that is still present in the mids of today's americans. mainly the older crowd, but still current voters. and you can see this with McCains subtle allegations that Obama is a Socialist. Using this to scare people away from voting for him.

Allende was a popular, yet divisive figure in south american politics. he was working to fix chile's economy but was so sabotaged by the US and other major econic partners in the pockets of the US that he was unable to get anywhere. like trying to swim up a waterfall. i think he had good ideas, and could have done amazing things with a country i have a lot of respect for. he does still have the distinction of being the only popularly elected communist in the western hemisphere.

[f6fhellcat13]

McCain suggested that if you like universal healthcare you are an unAmerican(implied) commie/socialist and should move to Canada or UK. I couldn't tell how tongue-in-cheek this remark was.
v Indeed. v

i think that was a very low point in our nations history. there was a widespread fear of communism, and it was a destroy at all costs mentality. it is a mentality that is still present in the mids of today's americans. mainly the older crowd, but still current voters. and you can see this with McCains subtle allegations that Obama is a Socialist. Using this to scare people away from voting for him.

Allende was a popular, yet divisive figure in south american politics. he was working to fix chile's economy but was so sabotaged by the US and other major econic partners in the pockets of the US that he was unable to get anywhere. like trying to swim up a waterfall. i think he had good ideas, and could have done amazing things with a country i have a lot of respect for. he does still have the distinction of being the only popularly elected communist in the western hemisphere.
I cannot say I know much about Allende, I have not taken a S. American history class, and he gets lost in all of the Marxism of that era, for me at least. The containment policy was so stupid in practise, if logical on paper.

[henk4]

i think that was a very low point in our nations history. there was a widespread fear of communism, and it was a destroy at all costs mentality. it is a mentality that is still present in the mids of today's americans. mainly the older crowd, but still current voters. and you can see this with McCains subtle allegations that Obama is a Socialist. Using this to scare people away from voting for him.

Allende was a popular, yet divisive figure in south american politics. he was working to fix chile's economy but was so sabotaged by the US and other major econic partners in the pockets of the US that he was unable to get anywhere. like trying to swim up a waterfall. i think he had good ideas, and could have done amazing things with a country i have a lot of respect for. he does still have the distinction of being the only popularly elected communist in the western hemisphere.

I don't think Allende was a communist, but more of a socialist. And I also know these words have a far more extreme connotation in the USA than they have over here. (I have been a member of our socialist party since 1974)
Using the word Socialism in (some parts of) the USA is a certain guarantee to get people in the curtains, and this is what the McCain campaign is apparently speculating upon.

[f6fhellcat13]

Unfortunalty, for some; a socialist is a communist is an evil dictator.
Others beleive that they are merely harmless hippies.

[henk4]

Unfortunalty, for some; a socialist is a communist is an evil dictator.
Others beleive that they are merely harmless hippies.
I recognise myself in both of these qualifications;)

[f6fhellcat13]

An evil-harmless-dictator hippie? ;)
Candidates reluctant to release medical records. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/20/us/politics/20health.html)
I was unaware that Biden had health problems because all the focus on health has been centerd around McCain. But as he is a VP, like Cheney, he can get away with bad health. :|

[nota]

Allende was a popular, yet divisive figure in south american politics.

he does still have the distinction of being the only popularly elected communist in the western hemisphere.
Meet Rhodes Scholar & twice democratically-elected Communist Fred Paterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Paterson) :)


In 1939 Townsville elected Australia's first Communist alderman. Five years later, Bowen elected not only Australia's first but also the British Empire's first, Communist state government member. Of the five electorates the Australian Communist Party contested in the 1944 Queensland State elections, in none did the Party's candidate receive less than twenty per-cent of the formal vote.

Fred Paterson died in 1977, after a lifetime of devotion to the Communist Party. In an interview in the mid-1970s, he said, "As an ardent communist I have been motivated by a much higher and more noble vision: the vision of a world where ... the fear of want is banished and the law of the forest is at last no more".

[cmcpokey]

I don't think Allende was a communist, but more of a socialist. And I also know these words have a far more extreme connotation in the USA than they have over here. (I have been a member of our socialist party since 1974)
Using the word Socialism in (some parts of) the USA is a certain guarantee to get people in the curtains, and this is what the McCain campaign is apparently speculating upon.
Allende wasn't a true believer in communism, but he did run on the communist ticket, and received some support from Moscow and Havana

Meet Rhodes Scholar & twice democratically-elected Communist Fred Paterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Paterson) :)

I guess I should have specified communist head or state.

[MRR]

i wouldn't criticize anyone for choosing a candidate based on them agreeing with your principles, politics, or for specific programs. and to a lesser extent i wouldnt criticize someone for voting for the candidate that is the representative of the party they are members of, even if they don't particularly like that candidate.

the people, especially us young people (and the college age ones most of all) that call themselves democrats and have no idea what that means, or republicans and not know what principles the party was founded upon; those are who really get me angry. at least know where your candidate stands on the issues, or better, know what the issues are.

my single biggest peeve though, is that thinking that by voting for a fringe candidate you are somehow speaking your mind out against the 2 party system and will have your voice heard. that is false. 100% false. in the 2000 election the left was spilt between gore and nader. had nader not run, a majority of those votes would have fallen on gore, and it would have more than sealed the deal for him. conversely, in the 1992 election ross perot stol a large percentage of votes on the right, and lost the election for H.W. Bush. so what does that all mean? in our system, if you spit the votes on either the left or the right, that side will lose, and you will not have a representative in office for the majority.

example loosely based on the 2000 election:
you have 51% of the country on the left
you have 49% on the right.
there is a fringe candidate on the left (Nader) who takes 3%
the democrat gets 48% and the one on the right get the plurality
the minority rules.

that is called Duverger's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvergers_Law)

Nadar stood for a completely different type of left wing movement compared to a more moderate Gore (in much the same way Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan represented a different type of "right" than George HW Bush and Bob Dole). You are oversimplifying things by calling groups of people just "right" and "left" and claiming that the minority right or left gains a control over the majority opposite when a relatively significant portion of the population shifts the balance by voting for a Nadar like candidate. Right and left can mean many different things (paleoconservative, neocon, libertarian, socialist, green, etc).

When neither of the candidates even come close to my personal political views I consider it my duty to vote for someone who are more aligned with my beliefs. For the first time since I can remember if you vote either democrat or republican you get bigger government. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.

[cmcpokey]

Nadar stood for a completely different type of left wing movement compared to a more moderate Gore (in much the same way Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan represented a different type of "right" than George HW Bush and Bob Dole). You are oversimplifying things by calling groups of people just "right" and "left" and claiming that the minority right or left gains a control over the majority opposite when a relatively significant portion of the population shifts the balance by voting for a Nadar like candidate. Right and left can mean many different things (paleoconservative, neocon, libertarian, socialist, green, etc).

When neither of the candidates even come close to my personal political views I consider it my duty to vote for someone who are more aligned with my beliefs. For the first time since I can remember if you vote either democrat or republican you get bigger government. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.

and thats why bush has been in office for 8 years.

I'm not saying that you dont have somewhat of a point, you do. However, if there is a significant enough group of fringe candidates, the minority will rule. so instead of having someone that is still not what you want, but closer to what you believe, you get someone on the opposite side of the spectrum for you.

so as all as i'm saying, that if you want a republican in office for 4+ more years, vote for nader. a vote for nader is a vote for a republican. if you can live with voting for mccain, then go for it.

[henk4]

When neither of the candidates even come close to my personal political views I consider it my duty to vote for someone who are more aligned with my beliefs. For the first time since I can remember if you vote either democrat or republican you get bigger government. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.

the current crisis shows clearly that the USA cannot do without a Government, whether you like it or not. And now that the mess is complete you only need more of that.....I presume you are a fan of Reagan's famous words....

[MRR]

the current crisis shows clearly that the USA cannot do without a Government, whether you like it or not. And now that the mess is complete you only need more of that.....I presume you are a fan of Reagan's famous words....

The current crisis shows how incompetent the government is at solving our problems. The government forced banks to give people mortgages under the Clinton administration and the Federal Reserve lowered interest rates to artificially low levels starting the housing bubble by creating easier access to credit than the market would have provided on its own.

What the government is doing now with the bailout is trying to prop up the price of housing, worthless financial derivates, and insolvent businesses and banks with the bailout which works against market forces and will prolong our misery. They should have let the market work for itself in the first place but now that the screwed it all up they need to let the price of houses and other worthless assets FALL because they were overvalued to begin with and let bad businesses and banks fail (we are setting a bad precedent by bailing out the largest banks in this country - textbook example of moral hazard). Working against market forces is what prolonged the depression in the 1930s when Roosevelt and congress tried to set prices (they tried it with crops for example and people starved).

De-regulation is not what causes this crisis - it was BAD or INCORRECT regulation by congress and our central banks screwing with the money supply, and interest rates that caused this.

ps Reagan was a neo-con and his unbalanced spending was not typical of a true fiscal conservative. Reagan said no new taxes but I say NO income tax or spending on anything the constitution doesn't specifically allow period but that is another story altogether.

[MRR]

and thats why bush has been in office for 8 years.

I'm not saying that you dont have somewhat of a point, you do. However, if there is a significant enough group of fringe candidates, the minority will rule. so instead of having someone that is still not what you want, but closer to what you believe, you get someone on the opposite side of the spectrum for you.

so as all as i'm saying, that if you want a republican in office for 4+ more years, vote for nader. a vote for nader is a vote for a republican. if you can live with voting for mccain, then go for it.

I wasn't planning on voting for Nadar and was just using him as an example (I think Nadar is a blithering socialist idiot). I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin or Bob Barr (but hell that is probably ok with you because it takes votes away from McCain - bet you wouldn't say the same if I voted for Nadar though).

[henk4]

The government forced banks to give people mortgages under the Clinton administration and the Federal Reserve lowered interest rates to artificially low levels starting the housing bubble by creating easier access to credit than the market would have provided on its own.

Did the Government force people to ask for credit for things they cannot really afford? And btw the US mortgage system is quite unique in that it bails out the house owner, when he cannot afford the interest anymore. He will hand the key to the bank and that's it. Under normal international loan conditions he would in all cases have to repay his loan.

[henk4]

I wasn't planning on voting for Nadar and was just using him as an example (I think Nadar is a blithering socialist idiot). I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin or Bob Barr (but hell that is probably ok with you because it takes votes away from McCain - bet you wouldn't say the same if I voted for Nadar though).

Perhaps you should first learn to spell Nader's name correctly.....

[cmcpokey]

I wasn't planning on voting for Nadar and was just using him as an example (I think Nadar is a blithering socialist idiot). I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin or Bob Barr (but hell that is probably ok with you because it takes votes away from McCain - bet you wouldn't say the same if I voted for Nadar though).

i figured you were a leftist. my apologies. generally the left wing are the ones that try and get you to ruin the election. and I agree that Nader is an idiot. Has been for decades.

however, i am such a believer in this that even if you voted on the right, i would think you were making a mistake. it is better, in my mind, to be represented by someone who has similar beliefs to you, even if they dont match up, then someone who is really the opposite of you.

i don't want to start trading insults based on political beliefs, i can lean both ways politically at different times. i like a lot of ron paul's economic ideas. he's just bat-shit insane. not unlike Nader. Mac woudl be a lot better for the military than Obama, and that's something that directly affects my paycheck. but as a believer in the international system, i can not see voting for anyone who pledges to keep us at odds with the rest of the world, and make it less safe for me to travel around the world. which is something i have to do for my job. i could go on at length about this very topic, but i will save it for another day.

[MRR]

Did the Government force people to ask for credit for things they cannot really afford? And btw the US mortgage system is quite unique in that it bails out the house owner, when he cannot afford the interest anymore. He will hand the key to the bank and that's it. Under normal international loan conditions he would in all cases have to repay his loan.

And their credit rating goes to crap and they can't get another mortgage for years.

The government wanted to increase home ownership (particularly under Clinton) because it made politicians look good (despite the face that home ownership is not and should not be a right). Clinton actually created a lot of this mess by initiating the market for subprime mortgages (great article below).

IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- The Real Culprits In This Meltdown (http://ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306370789279709)


Perhaps you should first learn to spell Nader's name correctly.....
Um...simple typo who cares

[MRR]

however, i am such a believer in this that even if you voted on the right, i would think you were making a mistake. it is better, in my mind, to be represented by someone who has similar beliefs to you, even if they dont match up, then someone who is really the opposite of you.

Both are the opposites of me politically. McCain's foreign policy is just wrong and both Obama and McCain's domestic policies contradict my beliefs as well in different ways (they aren't even similar).


i like a lot of ron paul's economic ideas. he's just bat-shit insane. not unlike Nader.

How was he insane exactly? I wouldn't even begin to compare Paul to Nader.

[henk4]

Um...simple typo who cares

not a simple typo, a consistent and repeated one.

[henk4]

And their credit rating goes to crap and they can't get another mortgage for years.

The government wanted to increase home ownership (particularly under Clinton) because it made politicians look good (despite the face that home ownership is not and should not be a right). Clinton actually created a lot of this mess by initiating the market for subprime mortgages (great article below).

IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- The Real Culprits In This Meltdown (http://ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306370789279709)
The article fails to explain as to how people were "forced" into going for high risk mortgages or otherwise face stiff punishment from the Government. That sounds like pure rhetoric, because in a " free" society nobody is forced to take a mortgage.

[MRR]

The article fails to explain as to how people were "forced" into going for high risk mortgages or otherwise face stiff punishment from the Government. That sounds like pure rhetoric, because in a " free" society nobody is forced to take a mortgage.

I think you misinterpreted what I said. People were not forced to but banks were forced to loosen their standards with the Clinton modifications to the Community Reinvestment Act during the 90s (a law which originated in Carter's administration).
How Government Stoked the Mania - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122298982558700341.html)

Community Reinvestment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act)


not a simple typo, a consistent and repeated one.

You just like to argue for the sake or arguing

[henk4]

I think you misinterpreted what I said. People were not forced to but banks were forced to loosen their standards with the Clinton modifications to the Community Reinvestment Act during the 90s (a law which originated in Carter's administration).
I did not interpret what you said. I read the article.....

[kara.lockard]

Hi,

I found it a very good thread. Very good discussion on US Presidential Election 2008.

[f6fhellcat13]

It's started:
Feds disrupt alleged plot targeting Obama - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_el_pr/skinhead_plot)

[Zytek_Fan]

It's started:
Feds disrupt alleged plot targeting Obama - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_el_pr/skinhead_plot)

It's skinheads, what do you expect?

[f6fhellcat13]

Phuckin 1st Amendment allows 'em to exist, wish they could be gotten rid of. :mad:
some sarcasm there but not much

[Quiggs]

Phuckin 1st Amendment allows 'em to exist, wish they could be gotten rid of. :mad:
some sarcasm there but not much

I don't like Christians. Wish they could be gotten rid of.
I don't like blacks. Wish they could be gotten rid of.
I don't like Californians. Wish they could be gotten rid of.

[f6fhellcat13]

I don't like Christians. Wish they could be gotten rid of.
I don't like blacks. Wish they could be gotten rid of.
I don't like Californians. Wish they could be gotten rid of.

Phuck you
you stupid Pennsylvanian a**hole
agree on the Christian



:p

[Quiggs]

Least I'm not a dirty liberal tree hugging dirt worshiper vegan yoga-doing tofu-eating Californian.

[fisetdavid26]

Phuck you
you stupid Pennsylvanian a**hole
agree on the Christian



:p
Tsst tsst you can use "phuck" as in "phuck yes!" but not to insult someone. And the A-word is not tolerated either.

Oh wait.

Those insults were directed toward Quiggs... nevermind then.

Nah, we're not biased at UCP. Who would think that anyway?

[Quiggs]

Hey, Canadian. Thiss is a US Election thread. Gtfo. Don't you have a seal to go club or some ice to make?

[fisetdavid26]

Hey, Canadian. Thiss is a US Election thread. Gtfo. Don't you have a seal to go club or some ice to make?
You should know by now your elections concern Canadians as well. Since your government and our government like to do it in the [censored, there are small children lurking around].

You know, Harper.

[henk4]

I just had dinner and I made a small survey in the restaurant. Nobody considers McCain to be a war hero.
Greetings from Hanoi.

[MRR]

Hey, Canadian. Thiss is a US Election thread. Gtfo. Don't you have a seal to go club or some ice to make?

http://www.sharkkarma.com/uploaded_images/mighty_hunter_2006-798091.jpg

[The_Canuck]

Funny site

http://this****ingelection.com/

[cmcpokey]

I just had dinner and I made a small survey in the restaurant. Nobody considers McCain to be a war hero.
Greetings from Hanoi.

I think he deserves the credit he gets for sitting in a prison cell for 5 years, with routine beatings.

Is he a hero? No.

Why you may ask? Well if you are a contributing factor to the Forrestall fire, then get shot down, then (albeit after torture) divulge critical information to the enemy. . . I dont think you can truely be called a hero.

[henk4]

I think he deserves the credit he gets for sitting in a prison cell for 5 years, with routine beatings.


probably the risk for participating in a basically illegitimate war

[cmcpokey]

probably the risk for participating in a basically illegitimate war

yeah, but that wasnt his fault...

[csl177]

it seems that every country gets what it deserves. I pity the serious American, a dying breed obviously.

No pity needed Henk, but understood. If this election goes into a scenario like 2000, can I sleep on your couch when I skip the country? :rolleyes:
After voting in every election for 30+ years and watching the slower 50% of the U.S. electorate decide our (and perversely, the rest of the world's) fate I don't think tolerance of American stupidity will work for me anymore. I've kept a dog-eared pocket copy of the Declaration and Constitution for years, and have never found anyone able to hold a cogent political argument against facts. But that never stops the chattering masses from declaring the opposite.

Unions? Communist. Universal health care? Socialist. Alternative energy proponent? Tree hugger. Educated or inquisitive? Elitist.

I know we don't have a patent on irrational behavior, other countries have their wacko elements too... but absolutist, jingoist, racist, straw-man baiting ideologues have run the United States for too long. And their followers have been given unwarranted legitmacy.
Joe "the Plumber" on foreign policy, for instance. Or Sarah Palin on energy.

The rest of the world hopes the thinking 50% will prevail this time. We've got a generation's worth of clean-up to accomplish.
Sorry about the mess. :o

[henk4]

Unions? Communist. Universal health care? Socialist. Alternative energy proponent? Tree hugger. Educated or inquisitive? Elitist.


you forgot spreading the wealth....thieves (after eight years if increased concentrating of wealth...)

[csl177]

in my eyes, no. i am very pro-allende, and anti 1960s CIA.

Sadly, another event dated 9/11 (1973). You are likely also aware the intent of installing Pinochet was to implement the economic theories of Milton Friedman... which of course, was then promulgated worldwide to "countries of economic interest" by our government/corporate oligarchy. Worked out really well for the ruling class, sorta screwed Joe Six Pack. Or Juan. Or Joachim. Or Yusef.

"But hey!" says the wiley American, "that's not our problem... and it's too complicated and old an' stuff. Turn the channel, ain't Dancin' With the Stars on TV?"

So it goes.

[csl177]

you forgot spreading the wealth....thieves (after eight years if increased concentrating of wealth...)

Exactly. Milton Freidman's legacy to the world. Or, at least the leaders of the G8.

[f6fhellcat13]

So it goes.
Slaughterhouse-Five was not as good as I expected it to be. :)
I agree with you about voter apathy, though. :(

[csl177]

I don't like Christians. Wish they could be gotten rid of.
I don't like blacks. Wish they could be gotten rid of.
I don't like Californians. Wish they could be gotten rid of.

You lost me with those last two... but Christians? Roasted with nice veg and mash, pretty tasty. :p

[henk4]

You lost me with those last two... but Christians? Roasted with nice veg and mash, pretty tasty. :p

do you want your Christian rare, medium or born-again?

[csl177]

Least I'm not a dirty liberal tree hugging dirt worshiper vegan yoga-doing tofu-eating Californian.

Said with love.

[henk4]

Said with love.

what would the world be if we had no labels and had to think for ourselves...

[csl177]

do you want your Christian rare, medium or born-again?

Best falling-off-the-bone, Southern style. Plenty 'o moppin' sauce.

[csl177]

what would the world be if we had no labels and had to think for ourselves...

Paradise Found. ;)

EDIT: A wonderfully complicated, imperfect, confusing cultural amalgam approximating Paradise (as we have been inculcated to understand it). I got dibs on the tree with the snake in it.

[f6fhellcat13]

do you want your Christian rare, medium or born-again?
I like medium-rare Catholics marinated in that nice transubstantiated wine with a couple of those delicious crackers.
please :)

[DieFrage]

This is going to be a pretty strong post for someone who hasn't posted in quite awhile:D


Footnotes, McCain's a Republican running for president in a country that has come to loath conservatives and Republicans inparticular. He doesn't have a chance and I don't agree with hardly anything he has said.

Obama has been hardly touched by the media and has captivated millions during his campaign. He may not be the best man for the job, but he will bring confidence back to the american public and THAT will help the economy more than either of their daft plans. I'm going for Obama.


I haven't read this whole thread, most but not all, nor am I very articulate or concise so bear that in mind. Here's my take on this...

For starters, I'm an independant. I was too young to vote in the last 4 elections, but looking back and taking into account the world view at the time, I would've gone for both Slick Willy and the Texas Dunce. That being said, conservatives have had their time in power for 8 years deregulating the market and staying out of peoples lives while at the same time giving tax cuts to the upper class(I wont open that can of worms, but I don't entirely disagree with it). Bottom line, 8 years is a LOOOOONG time to be in power in the US. I like the idea of a free market, but not at the expense of everyone else, there needs to be regulation and McCain is not willing to do that. He cannot multi-task. He has proven that a few times now with his grand scheme to halt his campaign and fly to Washington bit, then his proposal of a total credit freeze, then his proposal of a total credit freeze while still leaving needed programs in operation, then blah blah blah. Obama is getting a free ride to the presidencey. The press has been MORE THAN LIENIENT towards him, praising him and witholding damaging media while at the same time knocking McCain and holding little, if anything back. Obama has made numerous messups and made many an unpopular statement during his campaign, but those have been overlooked by all but the McCain campaign. Common "wisdom" is that voting for a 3rd party is wasting your vote and I still adhere to that to a degree, but people are doing it. Conservatives don't like Obama OR McCain. McCain was at best their 5th pick and then he throws the hail mary that is Sarah Palin out there and polarizes the Republican party. No, many true conservatives will be going for Bob Barr this Tuesday. I suspect that Barr and Nader will get a larger percentage of the vote than anyone is recognizing now. I find it tremendously hypocritical that the McCain campaign has questioned Obama's experience and then picks not just a rookie, but someone who cites "Putin flying over Alaska while I was in office" as foreign policy experience. If she gets in the White House and makes policy decisions, we're totally screwed. I cannot trust the polls, I can trust the people that I know and the signs that I see. A large majority of the polls, aside from exit polls, are done via landlines. Well, not many in the 18-25 age group have landlines and my family now uses only cell phones as well. The younger american public leans strongly democratic and they haven't, for the most part, been polled in large #'s. They do get many older people in these polls and yet they are still strongly democratic. There are 72 million registered Dems in the US, 45ish million Reps and about as many non-affiliated people. McCain has polarized his own party, Obama has captivated millions and will undoubtedly carry the majority of the 100 million+ minorities in the US due to his being black, and a dem. I know of several steadfast Republicans(the kind of idiots who almost exclusively vote along party lines) who will be going for Barr, not McCain. McCain has not come up with anything that could be deemed a "good idea" as far as the current situation is concerned and a total credit freeze will only compound issues and slow recovery. His surprisingly harsh views on Abortion, Stem Cell research and several other topics that are of issue to the huge evangelical population in the US are not his own. McCain is not a religous man and even called the Catholic Church "The Great Whore"(I cannot cite that, no, but I both read it in Time Magazine and saw it on Fox news of all places over a year ago). He is grabbing for votes like a drowning man for a raft. Anything he can do or say to gain support, he will do. That is why I will be casting my ballot for Barack Hussain Obama.

[kingofthering]

Summarized version of John McCain's campaign.

Vote for John McCain - he's just like you
Vote for John McCain - he was a POW.
Vote for John McCain - he's a Maverick. Whatever the hell that is.
Vote for John McCain - he likes women.
Vote for John McCain - he's not a Commie/Socialist/American hater.
Vote for John McCain - he's not a terrorist.
Vote for John McCain - he...

[f6fhellcat13]

Vote for John McCain - he's a Maverick. Whatever the hell that is.

This is a Maverick:
http://media.motortopia.com/files/7611/vehicle/47a34e9a60381/Red_Mav_2.jpg

[Dino Scuderia]

In McSenile's case...this is a Maverick.


http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=288109&stc=1&d=1225584803

[MRR]

Exactly. Milton Freidman's legacy to the world. Or, at least the leaders of the G8.

Leaders of the G8. Friedman was a great man. What we have now is a form of corporatism (or as I like to call it socialism for the rich) not free market capitalism.

[my porsche]

Summarized version of John McCain's campaign.

Vote for John McCain - he's just like you
Vote for John McCain - he was a POW.
Vote for John McCain - he's a Maverick. Whatever the hell that is.
Vote for John McCain - he likes women.
Vote for John McCain - he's not a Commie/Socialist/American hater.
Vote for John McCain - he's not a terrorist.
Vote for John McCain - he...

Summarized version of Barrack Obama's Campaign:

Vote for Barrack Obama - He'll change things.
Vote for Barrack Obama - He'll only redistribute your wealth if you make over $200,000 per year.
Vote for Barrack Obama - He'll vote 'Present'.
Vote for Barrack Obama - He'll change things.
Vote for Barrack Obama - He wouldn't even pass clearance to work at the FBI, now he wants to run it.
Vote for Barrack Obama - He's hip and black.
Vote for Barrack Obama - He'll change things.



I can't wait for this to be over, if I never heard another word about Obama or McCain I would be completely fine with that.

[Quiggs]

Hope

change

chope

[f6fhellcat13]

I can't wait for this to be over, if I never heard another word about Obama or McCain I would be completely fine with that.
We got at least fo' mo' years of them, buddy.
:o

[teatako]

in a lighter , humorous note, the argentinean dude covering Formula One said "Formula One has its very own Obama, Lewis Hamilton is the World Champion" :rolleyes:

[my porsche]

in a lighter , humorous note, the argentinean dude covering Formula One said "Formula One has its very own Obama, Lewis Hamilton is the World Champion" :rolleyes:

Too bad he hasn't even won yet? :confused: People need to get off Barrack's nuts. Seriously.

[f6fhellcat13]

in a lighter , humorous note, the argentinean dude covering Formula One said "Formula One has its very own Obama, Lewis Hamilton is the World Champion" :rolleyes:
Is lulz :D

Too bad he hasn't even won yet? :confused: People need to get off Barrack's nuts. Seriously.
Lighten up, we're ****ed either way.;) And to help, here's this.

[baddabang]

McCain already lost. It's pretty sad when you're own VP pick stops thinking about winning now and starts thinking of herself in 2012.

[Kitdy]

Leaders of the G8. Friedman was a great man. What we have now is a form of corporatism (or as I like to call it socialism for the rich) not free market capitalism.

I am not sure how well a completely free market would work for the middle and lower class aka the bulk of society.

Didn't ol' Milty support Pinnochet's regime in Chile?

What a "great man".

[my porsche]

Is lulz :D

Lighten up, we're ****ed either way.;) And to help, here's this.
We're double ****ed if/when Obama wins though. Spreading the wealth FTL.

And sadly, that's exactly how he and millions of uninformed voters view him, Superman/Obamessiah.

[The_Canuck]

We're double ****ed if/when Obama wins though. Spreading the wealth FTL.

And sadly, that's exactly how he and millions of uninformed voters view him, Superman/Obamessiah.

http://libizblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/monopoly-man.jpg

[Zytek_Fan]

We're double ****ed if/when Obama wins though. Spreading the wealth FTL.

And sadly, that's exactly how he and millions of uninformed voters view him, Superman/Obamessiah.

You only say that because mommy and daddy will have to pay more taxes.

[f6fhellcat13]

McCain already lost. It's pretty sad when you're own VP pick stops thinking about winning now and starts thinking of herself in 2012.

Hate... Palin... :mad:
Dumb... Bitch... Should... ****... Off...

[Kitdy]

We're double ****ed if/when Obama wins though. Spreading the wealth FTL.

And sadly, that's exactly how he and millions of uninformed voters view him, Superman/Obamessiah.

For whoever wins, let's judge their presidency after it happens, not before. I think that whoever is elected may look good because the economy is gonna rebound regardless of the action that they take and the common person may accredit the next president with the recovery even though it was just part of the busisness cycle.

[my porsche]

For whoever wins, let's judge their presidency after it happens, not before. I think that whoever is elected may look good because the economy is gonna rebound regardless of the action that they take and the common person may accredit the next president with the recovery even though it was just part of the business cycle.
Yeah I'm not even commenting on either of their "presidencies", just the ridiculous Obamamania going on.

And you're right about the economy, just as Bush got screwed with his terms, whoever the next president is will look very good, especially in comparison to GWB.

[my porsche]

You only say that because mommy and daddy will have to pay more taxes.

So? Should I wish that my parents have to pay more taxes? Also I expect to be in that bracket pretty soon after college, so I'm looking out for myself as well. In addition to that, the idea of taxing one sector more in order to give more to another sector is inherently unfair.

I don't expect anyone on here to agree with me, actually pretty extremely the opposite, but this is a debate thread, where people voice their opinions and expect others to come back with a stronger counter argument than "You only say that because mommy and daddy will have to pay more taxes."

[f6fhellcat13]

In addition to that, the idea of taxing one sector more in order to give more to another sector is inherently unfair. So is life.


I don't expect anyone on here to agree with me, actually pretty extremely the opposite, but this is a debate thread, where people voice their opinions and expect others to come back with a stronger counter argument than "You only say that because mommy and daddy will have to pay more taxes."
I understand your position, but what I think Zytek_Fan was getting at was that you should look beyond your own wants and pick slighly more altruistically. That is not a pro-Obama statement.

[henk4]

Yeah I'm not even commenting on either of their "presidencies", just the ridiculous Obamamania going on.

From an outsider point of view, if any ridiculous mania is going, then it relates to Mrs. Palin.....(but she might be ideologically closer to you, so you would be less inclined to call that ridiculous)

[clutch-monkey]

So? Should I wish that my parents have to pay more taxes? Also I expect to be in that bracket pretty soon after college, so I'm looking out for myself as well. In addition to that, the idea of taxing one sector more in order to give more to another sector is inherently unfair.

I don't expect anyone on here to agree with me, actually pretty extremely the opposite, but this is a debate thread, where people voice their opinions and expect others to come back with a stronger counter argument than "You only say that because mommy and daddy will have to pay more taxes."

how exactly do you expect America to pay off it's massive debt though? you got into the war and ensuing debt; you can damn well pay it off.
if anything, blame everyone who kept bush in office and the war going lol

[my porsche]

From an outsider point of view, if any ridiculous mania is going, then it relates to Mrs. Palin.....(but she might be ideologically closer to you, so you would be less inclined to call that ridiculous)

No. The number of people blindly following the Messiah is astounding. The number of people saying "I like McCain but I really don't like Palin." is also pretty high, so where is the Palinmania? Everyone I've talked to is at best neutral on Palin.

[f6fhellcat13]

Pieter, Palinmania has subsided to a much greater extent than Obamamania has.
MP was being unbiased when he said that.

Everyone I've talked to is at best neutral on Palin.
Do you associate yourself with people of substandard intelligence? I'm assuming, aside from the members of this forum :p, you don't. Palin has what idiots are looking for in a political candidate, looks. (Please don't bring up JFK, he is completly different imo)

[my porsche]

how exactly do you expect America to pay off it's massive debt though?

By increasing everyone's taxes evenly. I don't have a problem with the $200,000+ bracket receiving a tax increase, my qualms arise from the rest of the country getting a tax cut.

Yes, it costs a certain amount to live, so the very few bottom tax brackets should see no increase, but once you're into the $40,000+ territory, you have plenty to live on, and, in my opinion, should be eligible for an increase in taxes.

BUT, here arises the problem of actually getting into office to implement this plan, it is MUCH more appealing to the 95ish% of the country that makes less than $200,000 per year to hear tax "cut" instead of "raise", and as they are a much larger portion of the voters, it is a much better idea to pander to them than the upper echelon. I can only hope that if Obama is elected he will go back on his word and increase taxes slightly for everyone. Simply increasing the taxes on the upper class isn't going to generate enough revenue to pay off the debt, there just aren't enough people in that bracket to make a dent on it. The fact is, the money for all of Obama's aggressively optimistic programs has to come from somewhere, and the only foreseeable way to do that is a uniform tax increase, unless you drastically raise taxes on the upper class.

[henk4]

No. The number of people blindly following the Messiah is astounding. The number of people saying "I like McCain but I really don't like Palin." is also pretty high, so where is the Palinmania? Everyone I've talked to is at best neutral on Palin.
the Palinmania is on her rallyes, where she does not even have to speak. (and when she does you have to listen in astonishment) How did you count the number of people "blindly" following the Messiah? How many are "blindly" following McCain? What you are implying is that those who support Obama are not supporting his ideas and plans but how can you be so sure of that?

[f6fhellcat13]

Without being an evil pinko, I would like to point out to you that that 5% does indeed control either a majority or a sizable minority of the country's wealth. It's not about the number of people in that category, it's about how much they have.

[my porsche]

Do you associate yourself with people of substandard intelligence? I'm assuming, aside from the members of this forum :p, you don't. Palin has what idiots are looking for in a political candidate, looks. (Please don't bring up JFK, he is completly different imo)
So if Palin appeals to idiots, and no one I know likes her...this implies I associate myself with people of substandard intelligence? :p

And no, I don't, I'm in pretty much all AP classes, and scored 96th percentile or higher nationally on almost all of my standardized testing (**** you, SAT English section, and your 92nd percentile...:mad: ) and I try to associate with those smarter than me. Sorry if that sounded braggadocios, but I was just trying to illustrate that on the contrary, I associate with those of immense intelligence. :p

[f6fhellcat13]

So if Palin appeals to idiots, and no one I know likes her...this implies I associate myself with people of substandard intelligence? :p

And no, I don't, I'm in pretty much all AP classes, and scored 96th percentile or higher nationally on almost all of my standardized testing (**** you, SAT English section, and your 92nd percentile...:mad: ) and I try to associate with those smarter than me. Sorry if that sounded braggadocios, but I was just trying to illustrate that on the contrary, I associate with those of immense intelligence. :p

That's what I was implying. :)

[henk4]

By increasing everyone's taxes evenly. I don't have a problem with the $200,000+ bracket receiving a tax increase, my qualms arise from the rest of the country getting a tax cut.

Yes, it costs a certain amount to live, so the very few bottom tax brackets should see no increase, but once you're into the $40,000+ territory, you have plenty to live on, and, in my opinion, should be eligible for an increase in taxes.

BUT, here arises the problem of actually getting into office to implement this plan, it is MUCH more appealing to the 95ish% of the country that makes less than $200,000 per year to hear tax "cut" instead of "raise", and as they are a much larger portion of the voters, it is a much better idea to pander to them than the upper echelon. I can only hope that if Obama is elected he will go back on his word and increase taxes slightly for everyone. Simply increasing the taxes on the upper class isn't going to generate enough revenue to pay off the debt, there just aren't enough people in that bracket to make a dent on it. The fact is, the money for all of Obama's aggressively optimistic programs has to come from somewhere, and the only foreseeable way to do that is a uniform tax increase, unless you drastically raise taxes on the upper class.

I recently saw some figures about how the wealth has been redistributed during the past eight years. There was quite a large shift in favour of the rich (10%?) while the lower income brackets saw no increase at all. And Obama's proposals to address that issue are labeled as Marxism (or Socialism, which also seems to be a dirty word)....

[f6fhellcat13]

Without being an evil pinko, I would like to point out to you that that 5% does indeed control either a majority or a sizable minority of the country's wealth. It's not about the number of people in that category, it's about how much they have.


I recently saw some figures about how the wealth has been redistributed during the past eight years. There was quite a large shift in favour of the rich (10%?) while the lower income brackets saw no increase at all. And Obama's proposals to address that issue are labeled as Marxism (or Socialism, which also seems to be a dirty word)....

"In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth"
From the Federal Reserve (http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss/oss2/papers/concentration.2001.10.pdf)

[henk4]

"In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth"
From the Federal Reserve (http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss/oss2/papers/concentration.2001.10.pdf)

that's interesting but outdated, and on top of that it does not cover the actual income. (which of course relates to wealth, but is something else.) From what I understood, it is income tax that Obama wants to change not "property" tax.
On a side note, the preoccupation of Americans with taxes is also stimulated by their retail pricing system. Every time I go into a shop and note the prices I am in for a surprise to have to pay additional taxes, so you are confronted with that issue on a daily basis. I can tell you that in Europe everywhere all prices are inclusive of all taxes (sales tax, VAT), it is even against the law to publish prices exclusive of all the taxcomponents. I personally found it very frustrating to never see the real price (always ending with .99) and having to pay more.

[my porsche]

Without being an evil pinko, I would like to point out to you that that 5% does indeed control either a majority or a sizable minority of the country's wealth. It's not about the number of people in that category, it's about how much they have.

True, but the top 5% is less than impossible to be in, roughly $150,000 and up per year and you're in, and the number of people making that far outweigh those making $10M per year. There are 138,000,000 taxpayers in the United states, so the top 5% is 6,900,000, and top 1% 1,380,000.

The average income of the top 5% is $153,542 (I'm not sure if this includes the top 1% or not, but for simplicity's sake, let's say this it does not) and the average income of the top 1% is $388,806. So with both of those groups, that is a total income of $1,384,101,412,000. The tax rate is 35% for those making over $357,700 annually and 33% for those making $164,550-357,700, so again for simplicity's sake, let's say 33% for our top 5% of taxpayers and 35% for our top 1%.

So with 5,520,000 in the 5-1% and 1,380,000 in the top 1%, average incomes of $153,542 and $388,806 respectively, that gives us $279,692,107,000 and $187,932,980,000 of tax revenue, so say a 3% increase on those segments, that results in a total increase of tax revenue of $13,845,032,110 each year. $13 billion dollars more to pay off the debt and fund these programs, know how much the national debt is? :)

Who Pays Income Taxes? See Who Pays What (http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6)
» 2008 Federal Income Tax Brackets: Official IRS Figures on Blueprint for Financial Prosperity (http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/2008-federal-income-tax-brackets-official-irs-figures.html)

[f6fhellcat13]

that's interesting but outdated, and on top of that it does not cover the actual income. (which of course relates to wealth, but is something else.) From what I understood, it is income tax that Obama wants to change not "property" tax.
I'm sure I could find a more up-to-date source, but I'm too lazy and I doubt it has changed dramatically.

On a side note, the preoccupation of Americans with taxes is also stimulated by their retail pricing system. Every time I go into a shop and note the prices I am in for a surprise to have to pay additional taxes, so you are confronted with that issue on a daily basis. I can tell you that in Europe everywhere all prices are inclusive of all taxes (sales tax, VAT), it is even against the law to publish prices exclusive of all the taxcomponents. I personally found it very frustrating to never see the real price (always ending with .99) and having to pay more.
I dont think retail taxes have anything to do with MP's objection to Obama's plans. However, it is quite annoying.
EDIT: I will rejoin this argument in an hour. I have to go do something.

[my porsche]

the Palinmania is on her rallyes, where she does not even have to speak. (and when she does you have to listen in astonishment) How did you count the number of people "blindly" following the Messiah? How many are "blindly" following McCain? What you are implying is that those who support Obama are not supporting his ideas and plans but how can you be so sure of that?
There's definitely Palinmania and I don't quite understand it, but the amount of people who "support" Obama because it is the cool thing to do is much larger than that of Palin. It would be very obvious to you if you lived here. :)

[my porsche]

Every time I go into a shop and note the prices I am in for a surprise to have to pay additional taxes, so you are confronted with that issue on a daily basis. I can tell you that in Europe everywhere all prices are inclusive of all taxes (sales tax, VAT), it is even against the law to publish prices exclusive of all the taxcomponents. I personally found it very frustrating to never see the real price (always ending with .99) and having to pay more.
It's really not that big of a deal, just mentally add 10% and you will get a rough idea, even with sales tax it still comes out a lot cheaper than the same goods in Europe. :D

[my porsche]

That's what I was implying. :)

My bad, I reread it and have no idea why I thought that...

[henk4]

There's definitely Palinmania and I don't quite understand it, but the amount of people who "support" Obama because it is the cool thing to do is much larger than that of Palin. It would be very obvious to you if you lived here. :)
well probably because supporting Obama IS a cool thing to do...(because it may imply that you have thought about some real problems...)

[henk4]

It's really not that big of a deal, just mentally add 10% and you will get a rough idea, even with sales tax it still comes out a lot cheaper than the same goods in Europe. :D
I wasn't talking about absolute price levels...but about the daily reminder that one has to pay tax, tax, tax. For me the whole tax issue plays only once per year when I have to fill out my tax forms....

[my porsche]

well probably because supporting Obama IS a cool thing to do...(because it may imply that you have thought about some real problems...)
I would be totally fine with that, but it isn't the case a larger percent of the time. Not to introduce race into the discussion, but a LOT of black people will be voting for him on the grounds that he will be the first black president.

For instance, Friday at lunch a girl walked by selling Obama t-shirts, our table said no thank you and:
Greg: Wait come back.
Girl: Yes?
Greg: Do you support Obama's decision to keep troops in Iraq?
Girl: Hmm...ooo man don't axe me that, I failed geometry.
Greg: What about Palin, do you think she will be a good vice president for him?
Girl: Hmm...noooo? I don't think so.

Her vote will count just the same as an educated, informed Obama supporter, thus the basis of my frustration at the situation. :)


I wasn't talking about absolute price levels...but about the daily reminder that one has to pay tax, tax, tax. For me the whole tax issue plays only once per year when I have to fill out my tax forms....

One price would be nice, some stores advertise prices including tax, but more often than not it's separate as you mentioned.

[henk4]

Her vote will count just the same as an educated, informed Obama supporter, thus the basis of my frustration at the situation. :)

so will the votes of some white people that have a peculiar dislike.....(but there is no entry level IQ for being allowed to vote in a democracy...)

[Kitdy]

As for taxes being raised onthe rich, the question I thikn that can be asked is is the amount of money they make "fair"? Is the free market always right? Is it altruistic when it determies the pay of the wealthy? It isn't when it coinsders the pay of the poor. What if there was no minimum wage? That'd suck for a lot of people I'd bet. Beyond that, maybe it is unfair but the wealthy can afford to pay more taxes and maybe it is wrong that we force taxes on people, but society works well this way - the rich pay more, that is just how our Western society works. I would be in favour of more wealth normalisation and having some kind of system where minimum wage is increased so that poverty in the West at least is eliminated - maybe some sort of redistrubution? Sure, call me a communist, I just want to see poverty eradicated.

And Henk, there does seem to be an Obama cult of personality goign on, way way more than teh rest of the candidates. Conisder that Obama is eaily the furthest left of the 4 on the ticket, rated the most liberal senator, and maybe the most left wing major candidate ever and I think that it is clear to see that some people are voting not for his policies but for him because he has charisma and is black and different. Many will not vote for him becasue he is black, but many will becuase he is. I don't think that the negative view of Bush has pushed the mainstream American public left enough to be in Obama's territory (though I would say he is still right of centre). What got me was a CNN poll had 53% of Americans call themselves conservative, and a conisderable amount less liberal, a small amount as undecided, and I suppose a bunch as not sure. Were Bush's presidency not such a disaster in the eyes of the public, I think McCain would have done much better - especially if he ran under his 2000 platform as one of the leftmost Republicans and as a bridge between Democrat and Republican. He coulda illustrated Obama as being rated the leftmost senator and portrayed himself as being a moderate - his problem would be the oratory skill and charsima of Obama. Now the huge monkey on his back is Bush and his turn to the right which may have alienated "moderates" in Amerca.

[Rockefella]

True, but the top 5% is less than impossible to be in, roughly $150,000 and up per year and you're in, and the number of people making that far outweigh those making $10M per year. There are 138,000,000 taxpayers in the United states, so the top 5% is 6,900,000, and top 1% 1,380,000.

The average income of the top 5% is $153,542 (I'm not sure if this includes the top 1% or not, but for simplicity's sake, let's say this it does not) and the average income of the top 1% is $388,806. So with both of those groups, that is a total income of $1,384,101,412,000. The tax rate is 35% for those making over $357,700 annually and 33% for those making $164,550-357,700, so again for simplicity's sake, let's say 33% for our top 5% of taxpayers and 35% for our top 1%.

So with 5,520,000 in the 5-1% and 1,380,000 in the top 1%, average incomes of $153,542 and $388,806 respectively, that gives us $279,692,107,000 and $187,932,980,000 of tax revenue, so say a 3% increase on those segments, that results in a total increase of tax revenue of $13,845,032,110 each year. $13 billion dollars more to pay off the debt and fund these programs, know how much the national debt is? :)

Just taxing the wealthy isn't going to alleviate the debt. The reason, at least in the way I view it, for Obama's proposed economic agenda is to give the middle and lower class a break. Lowering taxes creates more (disposable) income and encourages spending, something that is crucial at a time where banks seem to be in a race for who can go under quickest and sales are down. The stock market lost something like 25% of it's value in a span of 3 weeks and people are just down-right scared to spend/invest.. even though it's the most opportunistic time to do so. Hell, Circuit City stock was 20 cents a share earlier this week.

Once the American consumer is more confident in the government and economy (which I feel will happen when Obama's a few months into his term - not saying that because I'm a democrat but more because of the altered direction that will be taken in terms of the war/relations/change from Republican party values) the banks will more than likely gain strength, the housing/real-estate sector will grow again, and America will be on thicker ice than we're standing on right now. At that point you can restructure taxes and political/economic agenda.

I know the above is a bit of an idealized/simplistic scope of the future that could turn out to be completely untrue, but that's the image that comes to mind when taking into account the election.

[Rockefella]

I would be totally fine with that, but it isn't the case a larger percent of the time. Not to introduce race into the discussion, but a LOT of black people will be voting for him on the grounds that he will be the first black president.

For instance, Friday at lunch a girl walked by selling Obama t-shirts, our table said no thank you and:
Greg: Wait come back.
Girl: Yes?
Greg: Do you support Obama's decision to keep troops in Iraq?
Girl: Hmm...ooo man don't axe me that, I failed geometry.
Greg: What about Palin, do you think she will be a good vice president for him?
Girl: Hmm...noooo? I don't think so.

Her vote will count just the same as an educated, informed Obama supporter, thus the basis of my frustration at the situation. :)

I went to the Dover NASCAR race in Delaware about a month and a half ago. Yeah.. it is kind of irritating watching people, especially minorities, jump onto the Obama band-wagon because of what you mentioned: Black, young, motivational, etc. But, you have to view it both ways here Colin. You and I both know that a lot of Republican supporters have similar enlightenment when it comes to politics as this girl selling Obama t-shirts does. They vote because you're SUPPOSED to vote Republican.. because mom and dad do, and so does your neighbor, and he'll protect you, etc. (generalizations)

At the race there was a slew of race fans for McCain and 'NObama' stickers being handed out with not a single Obama supporter in sight in fear of being ridiculed and even threatened for the notion of supporting a, and I quote, ''nigger.'' Perhaps it's a bit harsh writing the previous sentence here but when you hear it through your own ears, even though racism especially in sequence with this election is understood, it kind of puts things into perspective.

It'd be great if all voters were informed and well-read about politics and our/other nations, but then the noble idea of a Democracy is thrown out the window. 'Everyone' has a say, regardless if your black, white, Hindu, ugly, brilliant, or stupid. Taking that into account, the amount of rampant Obamessiah supporters is balanced by the band-wagon Republican supporters, demonstratively far-right 'red' states.

[Jack_Bauer]

I would be totally fine with that, but it isn't the case a larger percent of the time. Not to introduce race into the discussion, but a LOT of black people will be voting for him on the grounds that he will be the first black president.

For instance, Friday at lunch a girl walked by selling Obama t-shirts, our table said no thank you and:
Greg: Wait come back.
Girl: Yes?
Greg: Do you support Obama's decision to keep troops in Iraq?
Girl: Hmm...ooo man don't axe me that, I failed geometry.
Greg: What about Palin, do you think she will be a good vice president for him?
Girl: Hmm...noooo? I don't think so.

Her vote will count just the same as an educated, informed Obama supporter, thus the basis of my frustration at the situation. :)


And there will be a fair amount of people NOT voting for Obama on the basis that he's a muslim terrorist. Go figure...

In the US, or any democracy for that matter, eliminate the politically ignorant or naive from the vote and you automatically eliminate at least two thirds of the population. Sad but true.

[drakkie]

'Everyone' has a say, regardless if your black, white, Hindu, ugly, brilliant, or stupid.

How about the major election fraud then ? I read in an article in NRC Handelsblad last week that in some towns supporters of party X are scrapped from the inhabitants list, so they cannot vote. In total it would be about 1 in 9 americans thus being unable to vote and some places as high as 1 in 4..

[henk4]

How about the major election fraud then ? I read in an article in NRC Handelsblad last week that in some towns supporters of party X are scrapped from the inhabitants list, so they cannot vote. In total it would be about 1 in 9 americans thus being unable to vote and some places as high as 1 in 4..

this is because the USA has a hugely primitive system of registering their inhabitants. While we are taking it for granted that we are registered in a city/village, which gives us automatically access to every voting process, (we get the invitation sent to our home address) in the USA you have to permanently prove where you live, who you are etc. Even on a state level the authorities are unable/unwilling to properly organise this.

[my porsche]

so will the votes of some white people that have a peculiar dislike.....(but there is no entry level IQ for being allowed to vote in a democracy...)

Right, just as those white supremacists who plotted to kill Obama's vote would have counted just the same as say my parent's.

I really think there should be an IQ test or something similar when you register to vote.

[Wouter Melissen]

I really think there should be an IQ test or something similar when you register to vote.

So you want to create two types of citizens?

[my porsche]

So you want to create two types of citizens?

Sure, if that's what it comes down to, but I just think this election is going to be determined by politically ignorant and generally ignorant people, whichever way it goes. Similar to 2004. You have people voting for Obama because he's black, solely because of that, and people voting for McCain because he's a republican. Neither even knowing where their candidate stands on simple issues.

Obviously any sort of test to prove that you know what's going on in the country would slow the process down immensely, so it's not likely we'd ever see anything like that.

[Jack_Bauer]

Obviously any sort of test to prove that you know what's going on in the country would slow the process down immensely, so it's not likely we'd ever see anything like that.

It would also contradict the basic premises of democracy. You know, that part about all citizens having the right to choose their government etc...

[henk4]

You have people voting for Obama because he's black, solely because of that,

you have people NOT voting for Obama, because etc....

[Kitdy]

'Everyone' has a say, regardless if your black, white, Hindu, ugly, brilliant, or stupid. Taking that into account, the amount of rampant Obamessiah supporters is balanced by the band-wagon Republican supporters, demonstratively far-right 'red' states.

I say amend the constitution and scrap the ugly vote.


this is because the USA has a hugely primitive system of registering their inhabitants. While we are taking it for granted that we are registered in a city/village, which gives us automatically access to every voting process, (we get the invitation sent to our home address) in the USA you have to permanently prove where you live, who you are etc. Even on a state level the authorities are unable/unwilling to properly organise this.

I dunno how different the system in the US is from here, but it seems overly complex and the state run election processes are frankly retarded in my eyes. It should be universal everywhere, there should be more access to voting a la Nevada, and federally run. Afterall, this is a federal election first state election second(?) Are there state elections everywhere?


I really think there should be an IQ test or something similar when you register to vote.

Something I thought of but disagree with. Maybe you could do a knowledge of the issues of policies test or that test and IQ test. I think there are plenty of intelligent people that vote that also have little grasp of the issues and policies of the candidates. The oligarchy would create intense discord in the society it was implemented in and probable a huge backlash against the voting clash. An interesting policy is one put forth in Starship Troopers (no not the goofy movie) but the novel by Heinelin - the only citizens in society are people that serve in the military and only they are allowed to vote. I disagree with that as well, but it's interesting.

[scottie300z]

Something I thought of but disagree with. Maybe you could do a knowledge of the issues of policies test or that test and IQ test. I think there are plenty of intelligent people that vote that also have little grasp of the issues and policies of the candidates. The oligarchy would create intense discord in the society it was implemented in and probable a huge backlash against the voting clash. An interesting policy is one put forth in Starship Troopers (no not the goofy movie) but the novel by Heinelin - the only citizens in society are people that serve in the military and only they are allowed to vote. I disagree with that as well, but it's interesting.

What if you set up a database of issues and when people go vote they are presented with an issue and two different solutions. They choose which solution they'd pick and then at the end, the solutions are averaged out and whichever candidate they matched up with most is the one their vote is cast for. And if some issues are more important to the voter than others, they might be able to add or subtract to/from the scoring weight of each particular issue.

[The_Canuck]

There should be a racist test for voting too, keep the hillbillys out. Oh and an individual opinion test to ensure that you actually have one.

[Kitdy]

What if you set up a database of issues and when people go vote they are presented with an issue and two different solutions. They choose which solution they'd pick and then at the end, the solutions are averaged out and whichever candidate they matched up with most is the one their vote is cast for. And if some issues are more important to the voter than others, they might be able to add or subtract to/from the scoring weight of each particular issue.

I disagree with this system entirely but it is interesting to think about.

Also, there are more than 2 parties even though outside these tow parties your chances of being elected to any part of the US or State legislature is small.

[Kitdy]

News just came in 10 minutes or so ago that Obama's grandmother has died from cancer.

What a shame, I feel bad for him. He is probably gonna be elected tomorrow, and he loses a lady that helped raise him. She also doesn't live to see him elected and the day before the freaking election - what a disaster.

I wonder how he will take this and what he'll do in the next 48 hours.

[my porsche]

Henk, for further proof of Obamamania, go into a US bookstore, Obama, a man that has done nothing extraordinary in his life excluding the last 6 months (first black presidential nominee...) has dozens of books written about him. By this logic any rookie senator should have dozens of books written about them. :)

I just went to buy Hamlet and was confronted with an entire free-standing section of political books, easily 30% of which I'd say were about Obama in a positive way.

[my porsche]

What if you set up a database of issues and when people go vote they are presented with an issue and two different solutions. They choose which solution they'd pick and then at the end, the solutions are averaged out and whichever candidate they matched up with most is the one their vote is cast for. And if some issues are more important to the voter than others, they might be able to add or subtract to/from the scoring weight of each particular issue.

Very interesting idea, but I'm sure that would slow the voting process even more, which will never do. This would at the very least make sure you knew every one of the policies of the candidate you wish to vote for in order to actually vote for them.

[Rockefella]

Sure, if that's what it comes down to, but I just think this election is going to be determined by politically ignorant and generally ignorant people, whichever way it goes. Similar to 2004. You have people voting for Obama because he's black, solely because of that, and people voting for McCain because he's a republican. Neither even knowing where their candidate stands on simple issues.

Obviously any sort of test to prove that you know what's going on in the country would slow the process down immensely, so it's not likely we'd ever see anything like that.

In a way we kind of have that with our use of the electoral colleges.

[The_Canuck]

Henk, for further proof of Obamamania, go into a US bookstore, Obama, a man that has done nothing extraordinary in his life excluding the last 6 months (first black presidential nominee...) has dozens of books written about him. By this logic any rookie senator should have dozens of books written about them. :)

I just went to buy Hamlet and was confronted with an entire free-standing section of political books, easily 30% of which I'd say were about Obama in a positive way.


I think you fail at understanding why there is a huge mania. This is history, its like you saying; "well i don't get why Churchill was such a big deal, every prime minister should have dozens of books on them"

Obama has so much media attention, because he's black, it's true, but there's also nothing wrong with it, he's a good canidate.

And why the hell were you buying Hamlet?

[my porsche]

I think you fail at understanding why there is a huge mania. This is history, its like you saying; "well i don't get why Churchill was such a big deal, every prime minister should have dozens of books on them"

Obama has so much media attention, because he's black, it's true, but there's also nothing wrong with it, he's a good canidate.

And why the hell were you buying Hamlet?
Brb, plotting to kill uncle and steal throne.

I had to buy it for my AP English class. It was only $4 though...not bad. :p

So, and I know this isn't what you meant, but this is basically how it would sound to some random person, it's ok that Obama is getting so much attention just because he is black and is making history? If there were a white guy with all the same ideas and going solely on this empty promise of "Change" and "Hope", he wouldn't even make it past the democratic primaries.

[Zytek_Fan]

Brb, plotting to kill uncle and steal throne.

I had to buy it for my AP English class. It was only $4 though...not bad. :p

So, and I know this isn't what you meant, but this is basically how it would sound to some random person, it's ok that Obama is getting so much attention just because he is black and is making history? If there were a white guy with all the same ideas and going solely on this empty promise of "Change" and "Hope", he wouldn't even make it past the democratic primaries.

I lol'd.

What makes you think it's an empty promise? Believe me, there is change coming, and it's for the betterment of society.

[f6fhellcat13]

Brb, plotting to kill uncle and steal throne.

I had to buy it for my AP English class. It was only $4 though...not bad. :p

So, and I know this isn't what you meant, but this is basically how it would sound to some random person, it's ok that Obama is getting so much attention just because he is black and is making history? If there were a white guy with all the same ideas and going solely on this empty promise of "Change" and "Hope", he wouldn't even make it past the democratic primaries.

Can you deny Obama's skill with words?

[Kitdy]

Brb, plotting to kill uncle and steal throne.

I had to buy it for my AP English class. It was only $4 though...not bad. :p

So, and I know this isn't what you meant, but this is basically how it would sound to some random person, it's ok that Obama is getting so much attention just because he is black and is making history? If there were a white guy with all the same ideas and going solely on this empty promise of "Change" and "Hope", he wouldn't even make it past the democratic primaries.

Obama also has charisma and he would get attention for it were he white. The fact he is half black is a blessing and a damnation politically: the attention he gets for being historic and motivating African American to vote form him is good, but how many would not vote for him because he is hal;f black?


I lol'd.

What makes you think it's an empty promise? Believe me, there is change coming, and it's for the betterment of society.

I doubt he will live up to his promise (if he is elected that is), as his promise is so great, and politicians always seem top promise the moon and deliver much less. The thing with Obama is he represents sop much hope and change that it could be a big let down if he doesn't deliver, and I can't see him doing it. I hope he does, but I doubt he will.

[Kitdy]

Well, we're about an hour into US election Eastern time. Will it be closer than the polls indicate? Will McCain have a miracle and manage to make it a close fight or will it be over before the West Coast comes into play? We shall see in a few hours. I am excited for sure.

I encourage those following on TV to find some election night drinking rules and apply them liberally to your drinking tonight.

[Zytek_Fan]

Every time they say the names Obama or McCain, you take a drink.
Have fun getting wasted or alcohol poisoning in short time :p

[clutch-monkey]

Well, we're about an hour into US election Eastern time. Will it be closer than the polls indicate?
speaking of polls...wonder if all that talk about how prone to tampering they are is accurate.

[Zytek_Fan]

speaking of polls...wonder if all that talk about how prone to tampering they are is accurate.

Well, the Diebold voting machines are pieces of shit and can be hacked quite easily in the time it takes for someone to "vote", so it could happen :(

[f6fhellcat13]

Every time they say the names Obama or McCain, you take a drink.
Have fun getting wasted or alcohol poisoning in short time :p

No!
Maverick, change and hope, buddy.
and McCain, palin, biden, obama, votes, america, any articles, verbs or nouns.
get wasted at will :p

[Rockefella]

Just got back from voting.

RON PAUL '08 BABYYYY

Kidding. Went Democrat. Also saw this stop sign on my way back. Lulz were had. The bottom reads 'without mustard' btw.. it's a bit tough to see.


http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=288219&stc=1&d=1225804803

[scottie300z]

Just got back from voting.

RON PAUL '08 BABYYYY

Kidding. Went Democrat. Also saw this stop sign on my way back. Lulz were had. The bottom reads 'without mustard' btw.. it's a bit tough to see.


http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=288219&stc=1&d=1225804803

that speaks to my interests. I am pro-mustard.

[Dino Scuderia]

Obama is going to confiscate your mustard. - My Porsche

[scottie300z]

Obama is going to confiscate your mustard. - My Porsche

What!!?? Then I must rock this vote. Or whatever the kids are saying these days.

[cmcpokey]

Will it be closer than the polls indicate? Will McCain have a miracle and manage to make it a close fight or will it be over before the West Coast comes into play? We shall see in a few hours. I am excited for sure.
no. for McCain, hope=0.

Well, the Diebold voting machines are pieces of shit and can be hacked quite easily in the time it takes for someone to "vote", so it could happen :(
diebold is a significant republican contributer. i have been opposed to them making voting machines since 2000. the veracity of the votes compiled by their macines is constantly questioned by election watchdog groups. i really believe that if you have a controlling stake in the vote tabulation, then you shoudl be independant or impartial. unfortunately that is never the case. such as the secretary of state in florida (appointed by Jeb Bush) deciding the election for W.

Just got back from voting.

RON PAUL '08 BABYYYY

Kidding. Went Democrat. Also saw this stop sign on my way back. Lulz were had. The bottom reads 'without mustard' btw.. it's a bit tough to see.


even joking about voting for ron paul makes me nausious. but the pic is a riot.

[Kitdy]

no. for McCain, hope=0.

There have been upsets in the past, but I dunno if the polling was as prevalent and accurate as it was today. The one thing that gives me pause is the Bradley effect or whatever it is called - no less, you heard it here first, 343 votes in the college for Obama, 195 for McCain.

In the end, I like electronic stuff, but for elections, too fishy. Good old fashioned on paper hand counts by multiple volunteers monitored by independent groups and party associates I think is best still. Also as I said before, the US should federalise elections and make the poll times the same for every state. Some polls close at 6 tonight? That is a joke. I think the earliest were 5 or 6 which is great, but I think 9 or 10 would be a good close time so that you can get all the voters. It also seems like you need more polling stations - the lack of ones in certain areas is fishy.

My 3 cents.

[Dino Scuderia]

The one thing that gives me pause is the Bradley effect or whatever it is called

If Obama loses it will not be due to the 'Bradley Effect' ...there are enough perceived reasons for people not to vote for him besides his color( which is a very small segment anyway). This is a very different time than when Bradley campaigned.

[nopassn]

I like the idea of an entrance exam for voters... pass, go vote - fail, go home.

My own mother is the worst example I can think of... Once a week I get an email about why she isn't voting for Obama. One week it was cause he refused to salute the flag (not true,) another week it was because he refused to cover his heart during the national anthem (not true,) and this week it was because he is a Muslim and wants to be sworn in with the Koran and not the Bible (neither true) - I replied, "Ya'll are voting for McCain, I get it, I really do. That's fine, you chose to support the Republican party.... I just wish you supported what it stood for - NOT what you HEARD or THINK the other guy stands for."

[cmcpokey]

There have been upsets in the past, but I dunno if the polling was as prevalent and accurate as it was today. The one thing that gives me pause is the Bradley effect or whatever it is called - no less, you heard it here first, 343 votes in the college for Obama, 195 for McCain.
i dont buy the bradley effect. maybe in very small numbers, but i think the majority will do what they have said they would do. i also think there is a large portion of the population that typically doesnt vote that will this time, and hasnt been adequately represented in poll numbers.

In the end, I like electronic stuff, but for elections, too fishy. Good old fashioned on paper hand counts by multiple volunteers monitored by independent groups and party associates I think is best still. Also as I said before, the US should federalise elections and make the poll times the same for every state. Some polls close at 6 tonight? That is a joke. I think the earliest were 5 or 6 which is great, but I think 9 or 10 would be a good close time so that you can get all the voters. It also seems like you need more polling stations - the lack of ones in certain areas is fishy.

My 3 cents.
i dont think the federalization of elections woudl really solve anything. especially since there are so many local issues voted upon. i voted in florida, but also saw a CA ballot, and there are so many more thing to vote on in CA. the one thing that the federal government could do, which i see as a plus, is give a standard format, and a standard vote tabulation method. there are so many different ways to do it, and of the different ways i have voted, Florida's seems the best currently. essentially a paper ballot, electronically scanned. paper and digital, the best combo. i voted in NC in 2004, they had a touch screen which was nice and easy, but no paper at all. good for the trees, bad for backup documantation. and in this case i say trees arent worth that much. compromise and use recycled paper.

as for polling station times, i really think the states do a fine job administering it. the states that have a much larger urban workforce stay open later than the ones that dont. maybe we shoudl all be like that town in NH or VT that everyone in the voting district, like 45 people, vote before 1am on election day.

i personally have done early voting, or absentee ballots, for every election, and only voted on an official voting day for primaries. i think thats really the future of the elections, and seems to be catching on. with over 50% of colorado, and over 40% in a lot of states, voting early, i think voters have decided to vote on their terms, at the day and time of their choosing. and if it makes it easier or more convenient for voters to vote, they will, and that makes me happier.

[Kitdy]

What do you think Palin's political future holds amigos?

[Kitdy]

i dont think the federalization of elections woudl really solve anything.

I just want standardised ballots and the like. And polls to have the same hours in each time zone (longer). Also as I said more polling stations like in Nevada where CNN claimed they were prevalent. Running it state by state makes it much more complicated in my eyes and may well add redundancies and make it cost more money. I can't see the patchwork being better than a universal federal system. There should be a federally mandated number of polling stations per population in my eyes.

We do it it all by hand hear and you never hear of voting fiascoes - maybe because of less coverage, but I would say probably because of a good system. Also the voter registering sounds laughable. Here, you get it in the mail well in advance no panic. The polls were I live, there is not lines, it is so simple, you make an "X" on a clearly marked simple ballot. Mind you, this district has low turnout, but even still if you were to double or quadruple the people there would be minimal wait time. And the times I've gone have been at peak hours - after work, usually 7ish. Elections Canada does a great job and when can any Canadian on this board or anyone else remember a voting controversy here?

[my porsche]

Can you deny Obama's skill with words?

He reads a teleprompter very well. Ever seen him off of a teleprompter? Stutters like a mofo.

YouTube - Obama Speech - Teleprompter Goes Out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJSVPAx8xc)
YouTube - Barack Obama "Uh" Count (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&feature=related)

Luckily, he will more than likely always read off of one, so he can maintain his flawless image for his sheeple.


I like the idea of an entrance exam for voters... pass, go vote - fail, go home.

My own mother is the worst example I can think of... Once a week I get an email about why she isn't voting for Obama. One week it was cause he refused to salute the flag (not true,) another week it was because he refused to cover his heart during the national anthem (not true,) and this week it was because he is a Muslim and wants to be sworn in with the Koran and not the Bible (neither true) - I replied, "Ya'll are voting for McCain, I get it, I really do. That's fine, you chose to support the Republican party.... I just wish you supported what it stood for - NOT what you HEARD or THINK the other guy stands for."
Thank you, I'm glad someone else agrees.

And, luckily, your mom might fail. :p

[Kitdy]

He does stutter a lot m_p. I would really like to see a quick and intelligent exceptional debater (national champion?) as leader of a country - the logic would help decisions and press conferences would be great.

[my porsche]

He does stutter a lot m_p. I would really like to see a quick and intelligent exceptional debater (national champion?) as leader of a country - the logic would help decisions and press conferences would be great.

Exactly, he is extremely charismatic and inspirational...when he is reading a teleprompter, off of it however, far less than impressive. :)

Why can't there be a politician who sees eye to eye with me on every single issue, and is a motivational speaker without a teleprompter? :p

[Rockefella]

Exactly, he is extremely charismatic and inspirational...when he is reading a teleprompter, off of it however, far less than impressive. :)

Why can't there be a politician who sees eye to eye with me on every single issue, and is a motivational speaker without a teleprompter? :p

Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. DIAF Colin.

[Kooper]

I still think Ron Paul would've been the best choice. He's not in the running though, so do you Americans mind if we ship him to SA? We need some good politicians over here... :D

[my porsche]

Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. DIAF Colin.
Hahaha if you seriously think he looks polished and charismatic in those videos I feel sorry for you.

[Kitdy]

I doubt he does m_p, but he's sick of your view I suppose, and when Rocke has had enough (he is pretty easy going) you musta pissed him off good. "I feel sorry for you."

Really m_p?

DIAF is kinda funny too.

Here is all I ask of Americans. NO matter whois elected, if their polcies havea clear positive impact on the World and Ameirca, then give them credit even if they aren't your choice. Have an open mind.

Did anyone watch CNN's "holograms"? The Capitol was ok, she was kinda cool, I wanted higher res, (and expected it) but it got me talking and I thought it was cool. Imagine that tech in 5, 10, 20 years. Man technology is wondrous.

[whiteballz]

Media projections lean to Mcain with an upset, however exit polls lead to Obama.

How many hours till the winner is decided?

[Jack_Bauer]

Media projections lean to Mcain with an upset, however exit polls lead to Obama.

How many hours till the winner is decided?

Obama has just taken Pennsylvania, which many predicted McCain would need to take if he's to have any chance of winning. Looks like Obama is on course at the moment.

[f6fhellcat13]

Media projections lean to Mcain with an upset, however exit polls lead to Obama.

How many hours till the winner is decided?
till Hawaii or alaska is done at 8pm their time iirc

[Rockefella]

He reads a teleprompter very well. Ever seen him off of a teleprompter? Stutters like a mofo.

YouTube - Obama Speech - Teleprompter Goes Out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJSVPAx8xc)
YouTube - Barack Obama "Uh" Count (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&feature=related)

Luckily, he will more than likely always read off of one, so he can maintain his flawless image for his sheeple.


Thank you, I'm glad someone else agrees.

And, luckily, your mom might fail. :p

The first video was embarrassing, that's obvious. However, if you're reading a speech off of a teleprompter without rehearsing much before-hand, I'm sure it will throw a massive spanner in his thoughts when it suddenly goes out. Especially so if someone wrote the speech for him in a busy election campaign. I'm sure both candidates (Obama/McCain) rely much on their party sidekicks for speeches and preperation. It'd be nigh on impossible to have every speech memorized when these guys partake in so many rallies and political fundraising.

The second video just displays his habit of saying uh very briefly before speaking. I don't think it shows him as a poor speaker, it's just a mannerism of sorts. If you think Obama in general is a poor speaker and needs to only rely on a teleprompter I'm sure most would agree that you are wrong.

What my point is Colin in all of this, when the chips are down and it comes down to your supported candidate in McCain versus the generally popular candidate in Obama, you find ill-fated straws to grasp at in order to make him look bad. I'm sure if Obama was the Republican candidate you would praise him as an ideal candidate and McCain as a poor representative of what our country needs. Don't be so black and white on the issue. I used to like McCain and considered him the best candidate from 2-6 years ago. Then he seemed to drift over to the far-right in order to pick up all the red votes that helped Bush overcome Gore and Kerry in the prior 2 elections. Just because I'm pro-democrat doesn't mean I need to blast McCain for his party values and persona. I just feel Obama's better-suited to my interests.

Since this is an automotive forum, I'll equate it to our favorite topic of ZR1 versus GT-R. Both cars are outstanding motoring and engineering achievements, but since they go about doing so in different ways, people feel the need to proclaim one the victor and the other a piece of garbage. Just because I personally prefer the ZR1 over the GT-R doesn't mean I have to hate the Nissan. I respect it for it's outstanding technology and performance on the dollar. Applying all that to the election is similar. I guess it's harder for something like that to happen in Texas where there is undoubtedly a mass McCain appeal and Obama slander is rampant.

[SlickHolden]

Who's won Bush or Gore ???.

[f6fhellcat13]

How are y'all tracking the election? TV? the netz?

[my porsche]

Since this is an automotive forum, I'll equate it to our favorite topic of ZR1 versus GT-R. Both cars are outstanding motoring and engineering achievements, but since they go about doing so in different ways, people feel the need to proclaim one the victor and the other a piece of garbage. Just because I personally prefer the ZR1 over the GT-R doesn't mean I have to hate the Nissan. I respect it for it's outstanding technology and performance on the dollar. Applying all that to the election is similar. I guess it's harder for something like that to happen in Texas where there is undoubtedly a mass McCain appeal and Obama slander is rampant.

That is actually a perfect analogy, they are both pieces of garbage, one just slightly less soiled than the other. :p

Lmao, come to Texas. It's Obamamania. :)

[fisetdavid26]

How are y'all tracking the election? TV? the netz?
Telly.

[whiteballz]

partial coverage on radio @ work, When I can im sneaking onto some news sites.

But Im not as 100% on coverage as i'd like to be.

Im more interested in the US elections than the australian.

[Zytek_Fan]

Projection says Obama wins Pennsylvania.

[The_Canuck]

That is actually a perfect analogy, they are both pieces of garbage, one just slightly less soiled than the other. :p

Lmao, come to Texas. It's Obamamania. :)

Aren't you in Housten or Austin? Both city centres and therefore dem?

[Kitdy]

Lmao, come to Texas. It's Obamamania. :)

Maybe in certain parts of urban Texas but statewide and rurally?

Also this is looking done like dinner. Obama has a 4% lead in Florida, and took Pennsylvania and is leading in Ohio early. Exit polls and projections seem to me to be usually right and with the three west coast states tied up for Obama and a few western states that may go Obama's way, it looks at this stage like McCain is dead in the water like everyone said he was.

McCain aides are objecting to the Penn call according to Fox. Regardless, if Obama gets either Flordia or Ohio or both it is basically done and will take an epic epic epic upset like one never known with modern polling in the US by my estimation.

Interestingly, CNN seems hesitant to make calls as other news outlets are fleshing up the college faster. I am primarily watching CNN but am sorta afraid I will miss the first call for the election due to their hesitance.

[my porsche]

Aren't you in Housten or Austin? Both city centres and therefore dem?

Houston.


Exit polls and projections seem to me to be usually right

The most flamingly liberal person I know even says exit polls are worthless. :p

[Rockefella]

I can't see McCain winning without Pennsylvania or Florida. Both seem to be favoring Obama, and Pennsylvania's been called.

302-236 Obama over McCain.

[whiteballz]

what are the two three digit numbers I keep hearing?

Number of majority centres taken or something?

[f6fhellcat13]

what are the two three digit numbers I keep hearing?

Number of majority centres taken or something?
# of Electoral votes, perhaps

[my porsche]

what are the two three digit numbers I keep hearing?

Number of majority centres taken or something?

The way our voting system works each state has a certain number of electoral votes, whoever wins that state gets that many votes, and you need 270 to win.

[Rockefella]

what are the two three digit numbers I keep hearing?

Number of majority centres taken or something?

In America there are 538 electoral votes that are spread across the 50 states and the District of Columbia (Washington D.C.) The way it works is that each state has 2 electoral votes for the 2 senators that represent each state plus 1 electoral vote for each member the state has in the House of Representatives. For that reason you see most smaller states with 3-5 electoral votes (H of R has members from each state based on population) with larger states like New York, Florida, and California having 25+. As said, totaling all these states plus D.C. gives you 538 total 'electoral votes'. For the candidate to win he needs 270 out of 538 which is the majority. The numbers we post are just predictions of the final electoral vote count.

[f6fhellcat13]

Just saw an AP report that Obama is taking the wome's an hispanic vote.
I guess Hillary's supporters didn't jump ship like they said they would.

[fisetdavid26]

Ohiooooo

[454MAG]

mC CAIN texas!

[fisetdavid26]

Interesting what they did on CNN, even by giving McCain a lot of states he reached 266, not enough!

[Rockefella]

Interesting what they did on CNN, even by giving McCain a lot of states he reached 266, not enough!

Yeah, it's over.

[baddabang]

Exactly, he is extremely charismatic and inspirational...when he is reading a teleprompter, off of it however, far less than impressive. :)

Why can't there be a politician who sees eye to eye with me on every single issue, and is a motivational speaker without a teleprompter? :p

And McCain sounds like his balls haven't dropped yet. Whats your point?

[Rockefella]

And McCain sounds like his balls haven't dropped yet. Whats your point?

Not cool. I just thought about what McCain's balls look like.

[baddabang]

Not cool. I just thought about what McCain's balls look like.

Homo.

[Rockefella]

Homo.

Takes one to know one.

</End off topic>

Obama projected to win Iowa and New Mexico. Nails in the coffin.

[baddabang]

Takes one to know one.

</End off topic>

Obama projected to win Iowa and New Mexico. Nails in the coffin.

McCain? Nails in the coffin? I see what you did there.

[f6fhellcat13]

Ladies and Gentleman, the next President of the United States:
*Hail to the Cheif*

[Zytek_Fan]

Just wait until California, Oregon, and Washington come in :D

[whiteballz]

so its 100% sealed?

[Zytek_Fan]

so its 100% sealed?

As soon as the West Coast results come in in an hour, yes it will be.

[fisetdavid26]

so its 100% sealed?
No, not 100%. Not yet.

[f6fhellcat13]

Was it the swastikas in they pic that made you delete it?
I know we've had a long discussion about calling people "Nazis" before, but the purpose in that pic was to show the ridiculuosness of some of Obama;s critics and in no way degrades Germans and the like.

[fisetdavid26]

Was it the swastikas in they pic that made you delete it?
I know we've had a long discussion about calling people "Nazis" before, but the purpose in that pic was to show the ridiculuosness of some of Obama;s critics and in no way degrades Germans and the like.
Well first off it's Obama photoshopped into Osama Bin Laden, that's out of place to begin with, then there's the Swastika, then the weapons and dynamite belt which implies he's a terrorist AND a Nazi, that just didn't belong on a car forum, so I deleted it.

[fisetdavid26]

McCain unsurprisingly won Texas.

[f6fhellcat13]

You don't think people would have detected my sarcasm?

[fisetdavid26]

You don't think people would have detected my sarcasm?
Maybe, but people are easily offended as well. You just don't take chances with touchy subjects.

[Rockefella]

Well first off it's Obama photoshopped into Osama Bin Laden, that's out of place to begin with, then there's the Swastika, then the weapons and dynamite belt which implies he's a terrorist AND a Nazi, that just didn't belong on a car forum, so I deleted it.

So this picture I made isn't very appropriate either.

[fisetdavid26]

Nice job ruining my moderating, asshat.

:D

[Rockefella]

Nice job ruining my moderating, asshat.

:D

K, I'll delete it.

[f6fhellcat13]

So this picture I made isn't very appropriate either.
Thanks, Rocke. ;)

[fisetdavid26]

Thanks, Rocke. ;)
I'm just doing my job.

[whiteballz]

Teamwork in action right there folks.

[f6fhellcat13]

I'm just doing my job.
I ain't mad at cha'. :p
It was kinda out ot line, but I'm feeling argumentative. :)

Teamwork in action right there folks.
Fo' Sho'

[fisetdavid26]

I ain't mad at cha'. :p
Life goes on. ;)

[whiteballz]

Like rocke, badda and quzzigz piledriving your sister in the next room.

Wait. What?

So, Is there ANY way Mcain can claw back a win?

Like if he wins EVERY electorate left?