Canadian Government to be Overthrown

[Kitdy]

... by rebels. No, actually, the three opposition parties have let lose and are attempting to oust the government form parliament.

As a bit of background for our non-Canadians (I am pleased to see this is the lead story on the BBC News Website for the Americas). In power is Prime Minister Stephen Harper after he was re-elected once again to a minority - albeit a stronger one. His Conservative Party of Canada got 143 seats out of 308 - just a handful short of a majority with which he could have used to pass laws with impunity as in Canada unlike say, the US, pretty much Ministers of Parliament are made to toe party line and when you vote against your party in votes you risk being thrown out of caucus. So, the three other parties, including the Liberal Party of Canada - Canada's typical ruling party, have reached an agreement. The Liberals (centre/centre-right) plan on forming a coalition with the New Democratic Party (centre-left) and receive support from the Bloc Quebecois (Quebec separatist/Quebec advocate/centre-left)/ The Liberals and the NDP combined have less votes than the Conservatives so the Bloc's support will be crucial.

Now, in Canada, there are certain critical votes in the house of commons called confidence votes - votes on the budget for example - which if the government loses, the PM is obliged to ask the Governor General (the Queen's representative in Canada) to dissolve government and have an election. However, we just had an election, and the people do not want to spend in excess of 300 million on another one. The Liberals and NDP were caught taped in coalition talks by the Conservatives (the NDP is seeking legal action in this matter) before the economic plan was released by the finance minister in which a plan for the economic crisis was not included and a small surplus was planned, as well as the elimination of the $1.95 of public money per vote that the parties receive in funding (I hate that parties get public money - right now, the Conservatives are rich, the traditionally rich Liberals are poor, the NDP always poor, and I dunno about the Bloc - but they are not happy about this). So, when the PM asks the GG to dissolve parliament, it is expected, and there is precedent, that she will invite the opposition to form government which they are expected to do. Apparently, before government forms, especially when there is a minority elected, the GG canvases to determine who governs - in Canada, that is usually the largest party in parliament although I suppose that the opposition coulda done this earlier but I bet wanted the economic plan released so that they could jump on it to get public favour. However, the Liberal leader, Stephane Dion is ridiculed in public squares for his poor English, his poor leadership, and unpopular policies. In fact, the Liberals have a leadership convention coming up in May where three have announced they are running, but it seems to me that Michael Ignatieff will win this and if all goes to the opposition's plan, will accede to the position of Prime Minister when Stephane Dion steps down. The NDP will receive 6/24 cabinet positions and will push for more economic stimulus or bailout packages. I was hoping that the Liberals and NDP would form a coalition and Obama would win, and it looks like I'll get my wishes granted. However, the way this has gone down I think is gonna piss of many, many Canadians and the Conservatives may well get a majority next election if the population rejects this coalition. I think if the GG does call an election, which in my eyes is highly unlikely, I think the Conservatives getting a majority would be a great possibility as a result of backlash against the opposition.

Sadly in Canada, we are not used to minority governments and they don't often last long and end up not even being coalitions - the other parties vote with the government in large enough numbers just to pass legislatoin so that an election isn't called when people don't want it. Fact is, with 4 parties in parliament, and 5 with a shot at seats, it is hard for a party to get over 50% of the popular vote, so if we used proportional representation, we'd likely have coalitions all the time, like some European countries. I hope this works and am optimistic, but fear an even stronger Harper and Conservative party after the coalition. I think that the hope for them is that the economy cleans up (although Canada has weathered the financial crisis maybe the best of any Western nation so the media/government has told me) and they are seen as saviours of jobs and livelihoods.

Recently, people were talking about how boring Canadian politics were in the Canadian media as opposed to the US. As exciting as the US election was, it was still just a normal election - this is something that has not happened ever before in this fashion in Canada and is potentially more dramatic.

Also, Ted Rogers well known by Canadians for controlling all the media died at age 75. And the TSX had the 2nd biggest loss ever. Busy day in the news yesterday.

[wwgkd]

I've been watching this and wondering if it were really going to happen. As for jobs and making people look like saviors, just saw a story in the news about chrysler employees in Canada worrying about their jobs, with or without a US bailout. I was going to post the link but I've lost it.

[Kitdy]

I've been watching this and wondering if it were really going to happen. As for jobs and making people look like saviors, just saw a story in the news about chrysler employees in Canada worrying about their jobs, with or without a US bailout. I was going to post the link but I've lost it.

I see you hail form Idaho - just wondering what you were watching this on? I saw some CNN yesterday but they didn't mention it and their website had no mention that I saw.

[wwgkd]

I see you hail form Idaho - just wondering what you were watching this on? I saw some CNN yesterday but they didn't mention it and their website had no mention that I saw.

Google News website. Has a nice variety of stuff from all over the world.

[mclaren_crazy]

Doesn't matter

http://www.canadians.org/water/documents/NA_Future_2025.pdf

CSIS is the Canadian intellegence operation for anyone who does not know

[Kitdy]

Doesn't matter

http://www.canadians.org/water/documents/NA_Future_2025.pdf

CSIS is the Canadian intellegence operation for anyone who does not know

That is awfully long. I scanned some of it - it seems we are all gonna die?

[Kooper]

All I can say is all governments need to be abolished. Step in the right direction?

I just saw ZeitGeist II in case anyone was wondering

[digitalcraft]

No, not step in the right direction. People will just create new ones. Remember what early governments were? Despotism. It took quite a while to get to democracies, and while they have many problems, they're better than anything else tried so far.

I really don't want to have to wait through all that again.

[Kooper]

You're right of course, but still, who wouldn't want to live in a world without politicians?

On a bit more serious note, why's this happening in Canada of all places? You'd think something like this would be par for the course for almost any African country, but in North America?

[Kitdy]

A right-wing paper carried a column where if I'm not mistaken, the guy called it like a Bannana Republic but the fact of the matter is that this is how parliamentary democracies are designed to work. If not a single party can control government, then a coalition should form to gain a majority. This is what is happening. I'd say the same thing if two parties that were ideologically opposite me did the things the opposition is doing now - it is within the system and a viable option. Unfortunately, so often partisan hackery intercepts politics and so rarely do you ever hear straight talk.

[wwgkd]

A right-wing paper carried a column where if I'm not mistaken, the guy called it like a Bannana Republic but the fact of the matter is that this is how parliamentary democracies are designed to work. If not a single party can control government, then a coalition should form to gain a majority. This is what is happening. I'd say the same thing if two parties that were ideologically opposite me did the things the opposition is doing now - it is within the system and a viable option. Unfortunately, so often partisan hackery intercepts politics and so rarely do you ever hear straight talk.

If they did talk straight people would think they were still slanting and then judge from there as if they were to find the truth...

But despise politics as much as you want (and I do) it's the next evolution over the "I'm stronger than you so I rule" philosophy. Who knows what's next? I keep hoping it will happen some day. Bet it will still be related to the original philosophy, though...

[Kitdy]

What upsets me most is not when politicians spin, it's when media outlets do - it's a fact of life but I mean what a load of crap. At least what I read was in the opinion column but a newspaper's bias I think often bleeds through all it's pages.

[wwgkd]

What upsets me most is not when politicians spin, it's when media outlets do - it's a fact of life but I mean what a load of crap. At least what I read was in the opinion column but a newspaper's bias I think often bleeds through all it's pages.

I completely agree. The news is supposed to be unbiased, but for all the trash talking of Fox, everyone does it. If you have an opinion save it for an editorial page or bitching with your friends at a bar.

[mclaren_crazy]

Kooper, I suggest watching Endgame or any other film by Alex Jones its like zeitgeist but does not misquote or mislead. I highly suggest to anyone interested in politics to listen to or watching anything with Alex Jones.

[Kitdy]

Kooper, I suggest watching Endgame or any other film by Alex Jones its like zeitgeist but does not misquote or mislead. I highly suggest to anyone interested in politics to listen to or watching anything with Alex Jones.

Looking into this guy one must ask a simple question. Is there is a New World Order that actually has any power and influence and are these conspiracies true or is it more likely that he is simply a businessman that realises that this conspiracy theory material sells well?

[mclaren_crazy]

Looking into this guy one must ask a simple question. Is there is a New World Order that actually has any power and influence and are these conspiracies true or is it more likely that he is simply a businessman that realises that this conspiracy theory material sells well?

He encourages the free copying and distribution of all his material

[wwgkd]

Looking into this guy one must ask a simple question. Is there is a New World Order that actually has any power and influence and are these conspiracies true or is it more likely that he is simply a businessman that realises that this conspiracy theory material sells well?

I know a guy that keeps trying to sell those theories to me, and I personally go for the latter. As much as I find it important to take things with a grain of salt and find conspiracy theories interesting...no.

[Kitdy]

He encourages the free copying and distribution of all his material

OK I watched the trailer and it is pretty much laughable. I see the classic religion problem - many religious people say their way is the one true path and yet there have been so many religions to claim this so which is right? Same with these Illuminati NWO type conspiracies. How many have there been throughout the ages? Why is this guy's any more realistic? He makes a low budget movie with stock footage and then gives it away for free - no doubt because it would be pirated anyways and then profits in other ways - his radio show, his books, I suppose people that buy the movie - savvy.

Maybe he actually believes all this - Wiki claims that he tried to revive the Branch Davidians at Waco. This does not lend to his credibility in my eyes. Then agian, maybe the Bilderberg Group are controlling his Wiki page to make it less reliable. Maybe they control Wikpedia! Maybe they control me!

I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying that it seems like a crock. A North American Union? When is that supposed to happen? Can you imagine the US in any kind of strict alliance a la the EU? Yeah right. What Canadians would ever want to be associated with the US in such a manner?

[wwgkd]

OK I watched the trailer and it is pretty much laughable. I see the classic religion problem - many religious people say their way is the one true path and yet there have been so many religions to claim this so which is right? Same with these Illuminati NWO type conspiracies. How many have there been throughout the ages? Why is this guy's any more realistic? He makes a low budget movie with stock footage and then gives it away for free - no doubt because it would be pirated anyways and then profits in other ways - his radio show, his books, I suppose people that buy the movie - savvy.

Maybe he actually believes all this - Wiki claims that he tried to revive the Branch Davidians at Waco. This does not lend to his credibility in my eyes. Then agian, maybe the Bilderberg Group are controlling his Wiki page to make it less reliable. Maybe they control Wikpedia! Maybe they control me!

I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying that it seems like a crock. A North American Union? When is that supposed to happen? Can you imagine the US in any kind of strict alliance a la the EU? Yeah right. What Canadians would ever want to be associated with the US in such a manner?

And vice versa! Freaking pea soup eaters... :p

[Kitdy]

And vice versa! Freaking pea soup eaters... :p

We eat pea soup? I despise peas unless they are fresh form the pod in which case they are only so-so.

[wwgkd]

We eat pea soup? I despise peas unless they are fresh form the pod in which case they are only so-so.

Yes, yes, but it's the first stereotype I could think of. For some reason my brain isn't working and my usually awesome levels of racism seem to have stalled.

[Kooper]

I dunno, the Zeitgeist doccies I always find interesting. At the very least it's thought provoking.

Everyone has an agenda so I guess you always have to take things similar to these with a pinch of salt. Even so, what's the harm in getting a different take on something?

But back to the Canada government issue, can your elected officials walk over to other parties once elected to parliament? That's kind of a big issue down here at the moment where a certain amount of politicians from party A and a certain number of politicians from party B get elected. Let's say party A holds 16 seats and party B holds 24.
BY LAW (what is entertainingly referred to as the walk-over period), party A can now bribe the politicians in party B to convince them to join party A.
It's possible that party A can now end up holding more seats in parliament than party B, even though the people voted primarily for party B...

[wwgkd]

I dunno, the Zeitgeist doccies I always find interesting. At the very least it's thought provoking.

Everyone has an agenda so I guess you always have to take things similar to these with a pinch of salt. Even so, what's the harm in getting a different take on something?

But back to the Canada government issue, can your elected officials walk over to other parties once elected to parliament? That's kind of a big issue down here at the moment where a certain amount of politicians from party A and a certain number of politicians from party B get elected. Let's say party A holds 16 seats and party B holds 24.
BY LAW (what is entertainingly referred to as the walk-over period), party A can now bribe the politicians in party B to convince them to join party A.
It's possible that party A can now end up holding more seats in parliament than party B, even though the people voted primarily for party B...

How often does that happen? Wouldn't it be kind of self defeating since those people who walked may never get elected to anything again due to voter antipathy?

[Kooper]

How often does that happen? Wouldn't it be kind of self defeating since those people who walked may never get elected to anything again due to voter antipathy?

It will damage the image of the officials in question, but once they walked over they usually get to stay planted for another 4 years. By that time I think they'll be financially well off enough not to care too much about what the people who voted for them think of the whole mess.

[Matra et Alpine]

The "walk over" is not a million miles away from what all minoroty government coalitions become.

It IS supposed to be the local political representative that folsk vote for ... not the "party" he/she belongs in. So if the elected person does what they promised and fully represents the electorate then whether they "walked over" or not is irrelevant.

Only the two party states like to keep it otherwise to ensure the power stays away from the hands of the people.

[Kitdy]

It happens here to but very rarely and the elected official gets owned. A few years ago, Belinda Stronach, Frank Stroanch's (of Magna fame) daughter crossed the aisle as it's called and went from being a Conservative to a Liberal and got a low level cabinet position. She crossed the floor and ended up saving the minority Liberal government when a confidence vote tied and the speaker had to break the tie by casting a vote for the government. She was reelected as Liberal but did not run in this election.

So yes it does happen, but it is rare and there are not masses of defections like you have there.

[Kitdy]

The "walk over" is not a million miles away from what all minoroty government coalitions become.

It IS supposed to be the local political representative that folsk vote for ... not the "party" he/she belongs in. So if the elected person does what they promised and fully represents the electorate then whether they "walked over" or not is irrelevant.

Only the two party states like to keep it otherwise to ensure the power stays away from the hands of the people.

That is not the case anymore in Western party systems as I see it. You vote for the party, not your representative in many cases I think. On the sub-federal and municipal level it is a bit different but not that much. That;s how things seem to be here, and I think - though I may be wrong - that that's how it is in other Western countries.

[Dino Scuderia]

[QUOTE=mclaren_crazy;850827]Kooper, I suggest watching Endgame or any other film by Alex Jones its like zeitgeist but does not misquote or mislead. I highly suggest to anyone interested in politics to listen to or watching anything with Alex Jones.[/QUOT


This guy was on a radio show this morning...a conspiracy nut to core.

[Matra et Alpine]

That is not the case anymore in
That was why I said "supposed".
It astounds me that we are conned each election time by the parties and their ads into seeing the party as the important factor.
It's waht a politician does for those that elect him that makes an "elected representative" government work.
I've always voted for the person and the persons views/believes and actions and NEVER the party.
As a Scot we have had decades of English Tory party decided rule over-ruling the 80% majority the left wing parties hold up here.
All because of party-politics rather than personal choice.

Proportional representation is a much better fit for oour needs -- but the least desired by any of the power parties !!

[Kitdy]

Luckily you now have a proper party in power.

Keep in mind I have no idea how things are going under them.

Sean Connery told me to vote for them and I suppose I could.

Matra, I was on my Mom's British passport when I was a child, could I then easily obtain citizenship? She clearly was born in Scotland.

[Kooper]

The "walk over" is not a million miles away from what all minoroty government coalitions become.

It IS supposed to be the local political representative that folsk vote for ... not the "party" he/she belongs in. So if the elected person does what they promised and fully represents the electorate then whether they "walked over" or not is irrelevant.

Only the two party states like to keep it otherwise to ensure the power stays away from the hands of the people.

That's interesting to say the least.

Problem down here though is that the ruling party needs two thirds of power in order for them to change certain laws or whatever the case may be. I'm speaking under correction by the way, my political knowledge or interest is virtually zero.

Based on that, most people down here vote for whichever party they want to. The ruling party being what it is though, simply bribes the amount of politicians it needs in order to get two thirds of the representation they require.

I can't imagine how something like this would fall within the bounds of "democracy".

[The_Canuck]

Doesn't matter

http://www.canadians.org/water/documents/NA_Future_2025.pdf

CSIS is the Canadian intellegence operation for anyone who does not know

Umm....I hope you're joking :p My sarcasm detector is turned off right now.

And Kitdy your spectrum on the parties seems all wrong. The NDP is left not centre left. The Liberals Float around the center and can be centre left as well as centre right, and the Conservatives float between centre right and right.

Not that theres any concrete way to put it but im just illustrating that theres differing opinions lol.

[wwgkd]

Umm....I hope you're joking :p My sarcasm detector is turned off right now.

And Kitdy your spectrum on the parties seems all wrong. The NDP is left not centre left. The Liberals Float around the center and can be centre left as well as centre right, and the Conservatives float between centre right and right.

Not that theres any concrete way to put it but im just illustrating that theres differing opinions lol.

That does seem kind of confusing. I guess it gets easier if you actually live there.

[NicFromLA]

The name of this post got me all excited and it's just a lot of blah, blah, blah.

Listen Quebec, we have troops on the boarder and in Alaska, you tell us when you're ready and we're go!

[fisetdavid26]

The name of this post got me all excited and it's just a lot of blah, blah, blah.

Listen Quebec, we have troops on the boarder and in Alaska, you tell us when you're ready and we're go!
lol, epic post.

[wwgkd]

lol. Canadian Bacon all over again.

[Matra et Alpine]

I can't imagine how something like this would fall within the bounds of "democracy".
I'm intrigued ... especially having worked in SA under a previous "democracy" headed by Mr Botha :(

WHen you say "bribed" do you mean the subversive donation of money and personal benefits or the negotiation of needs and wants ? The former is definately bad, the latter is just how a democracy "should" work. Otherwise it's a autocracy ( sadly nothing to do with cars :) )

If party A wants to make minimum wage $10 and party B wants it at $15 then is it a bribe to suggest that $12 be proposed ? Or is that a compromise ? If A accepts $15 as long as it gets non-union workplaces is that a bribe, compromise or negotiation ? ( These are plucked as possible scenarios, not real live options :) )

[Kitdy]

Umm....I hope you're joking :p My sarcasm detector is turned off right now.

And Kitdy your spectrum on the parties seems all wrong. The NDP is left not centre left. The Liberals Float around the center and can be centre left as well as centre right, and the Conservatives float between centre right and right.

Not that theres any concrete way to put it but im just illustrating that theres differing opinions lol.

I believe that you are incorrect, but maybe I am incorrect. When I pinned down the parties, that was an average. The Liberals as far left as they go are centre, but are generally a centre right party. The old PC party was centre-right to right but the new Conservative party is a bit further right and I would classify it as right wing and maybe a bit centre-right. The NDP if at all ranges from centre-left to left but I think the Conservatives are further right than the NDP left - fact is that in the West, even so called left wing are often note left or only mildly left. Then again, maybe everything I read and learned in class was a vast left-wing conspiracy meant to make all parties but the Conservatives seem moderate and them more extreme.

[Kooper]

I'm intrigued ... especially having worked in SA under a previous "democracy" headed by Mr Botha :(

WHen you say "bribed" do you mean the subversive donation of money and personal benefits or the negotiation of needs and wants ? The former is definately bad, the latter is just how a democracy "should" work. Otherwise it's a autocracy ( sadly nothing to do with cars :) )

If party A wants to make minimum wage $10 and party B wants it at $15 then is it a bribe to suggest that $12 be proposed ? Or is that a compromise ? If A accepts $15 as long as it gets non-union workplaces is that a bribe, compromise or negotiation ? ( These are plucked as possible scenarios, not real live options :) )

To be honest, I have no idea what the bribes themselves entail, but I'm pretty sure it isn't about minimum wages or anything like that, rather something like a new SUV to the politician that does the waltz over to the other side.

As I said though, I am speaking under correction.

The question you pose about whether it's a bribe, compromise or negotiation is an interesting take on it. My biggest problem with it is that the votes of the people resulted in x amount of representatives from party A and x amount of representatives from party B. That's how it should stay, not changed by which party has the most amount of money to throw around.
When did notes of money become voting ballots?

Enough about politics though, I can feel the greys popping out on the sides of my head just reading what I typed above...

You've been to SA before? If so, please tell me you sampled some biltong while you were down here.

[Matra et Alpine]

You've been to SA before? If so, please tell me you sampled some biltong while you were down here.
Couple of months in jo'burg and another a year later.

Of course. tried everything I could get my hands on :)
I preferred the kudu one I had, the beef was fien but the ostrich didn't taste as good. Mate had some shark when he was down at Cape, but didnt' bring any back with him L(

Most upset to find that all commercial drinks from marula don't taste as the same as the stuff I tried ... had been told it was illegally distilled :)
Vitblits another favourite.

the braais were the best in the world !!

[Kooper]

Couple of months in jo'burg and another a year later.

Of course. tried everything I could get my hands on :)
I preferred the kudu one I had, the beef was fien but the ostrich didn't taste as good. Mate had some shark when he was down at Cape, but didnt' bring any back with him L(

Most upset to find that all commercial drinks from marula don't taste as the same as the stuff I tried ... had been told it was illegally distilled :)
Vitblits another favourite.

the braais were the best in the world !!


Ah man, I'm getting home sick even though I'm still in SA :D

Next time you're down here let me know and we'll fire up a proper braai :)

[roosterjuicer]

k wait a minute. the GC or whatever. you said "the queen's representative"? as in the queen of england?

[Kitdy]

k wait a minute. the GC or whatever. you said "the queen's representative"? as in the queen of england?

The Governor General is the representative of the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland yes - "the queen of england." The head of state in Canada is Queen Elizabeth II represented in Canada by Michaëlle Jean. The Commander in Chief of the Canadian Armed forces is the Queen. Awwwwww yeah.

[RacingManiac]

What I don't like about this whole deal, is that while no parties is a majoity now in the parliment, Conservatives are the biggest in numbers. That means if there are bills that needs to be passed or resolved, they only need to convince a smaller number of others to get it to pass. Now if the coliation were to be the governing side, the "driving" party can be anyone of them(likely liberal), but the values and priority of the the 3 will be quite different, and they need to be totally together for everything in order for stuff to get done, or else the Conservatives would just obliterate them every time in voting. My view is that even if Conservatives were toppled, nothing will get done under coalition, and we'll be looking at another election in 6 month's time...which is plain silly...

[Matra et Alpine]

k wait a minute. the GC or whatever. you said "the queen's representative"? as in the queen of england?
England ??

:(

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith


bloody colonials :(


RM, you're fear are valid as long as the parties think they can regain absolute power. Once they realize that won't happen then a change in attitude usually occurs and the advantages of a properly representative political system will rise.

[roosterjuicer]

that is crazy! i never knew. first of all, i didn't think the queen had any power over england (i thought she was just there for sure) and i sure as hell didn't know she had any say over our northern friends. is she pulling strings in america i dont know about? :^)

[wwgkd]

that is crazy! i never knew. first of all, i didn't think the queen had any power over england (i thought she was just there for sure) and i sure as hell didn't know she had any say over our northern friends. is she pulling strings in america i dont know about? :^)

No. Many scottish and irish came over here to get away from her (including a lot of my relatives) and there'd be a whoopass rebellion if she was. Very few good things come from england, beer being top among them. :D

[Matra et Alpine]

Bush or The Queen ? You sure you made the right choices ?? :) :) :)

[roosterjuicer]

as far as I'm concerned, the only good thing to ever come out of England is America.

seriously though, does the queen have any real power in england?

[The_Canuck]

seriously though, does the queen have any real power in england?

Not really, and it's the same in Canada, mostly a symbol.

Although there are some ceremonial duties.

[roosterjuicer]

so does the queens representative call the queen up and ask for advice or is it just a title and the representative actually makes his/her own decision?

does this representative run for office or is he/she appointed? if so, who is he/she appointed by?

[The_Canuck]

so does the queens representative call the queen up and ask for advice or is it just a title and the representative actually makes his/her own decision?

does this representative run for office or is he/she appointed? if so, who is he/she appointed by?

Used to be recommended by the PM and approved by the Queen. Now I think it's all the PM's choice.

I believe there could be some dialog but it's the GG's decision.

[Kitdy]

I doubt that the GG talks to the Queen other than at ceremonies and the like.

[Kitdy]

I saw something that enraged me. A giant upside down Canadian flag flown at half mast on a business off the 400 - I presume this was done in protest of the current government situation. I thought it was absolutely disgraceful and I woulda really liked to say a word or two to the person that did it.

[Matra et Alpine]

It's only a flag !!!!
And in a democracy you should be happy that those with opposing views to you feel they CAN protest :)

Probably 50% of British flags are hanging upside down :) :) :)

[Kitdy]

It's only a flag !!!!
And in a democracy you should be happy that those with opposing views to you feel they CAN protest :)

Probably 50% of British flags are hanging upside down :) :) :)

Yeah because the Union Jack has that ugly off-centre red diagonal cross. I've seen it centred and it looks much better.

I'm pissed because whoever flew it is being disrespectful. Come to think of it, I'd like to show that to a bunch of veterans and see what they thought - I bet they would not be so pleased to see the flag disrespected in such a manner.

I'm not even a crazy nationalist - in human relations my first allegiance is to all of humanity as a whole, but when you do something like that with a flag it is insulting and frankly, juvenile.

[Matra et Alpine]

WOw, I didnt' think the Canucks were as anal about a flag as the yanks are !!!!!

It's only a bit of material dyed to a nice pattern :)

[Kitdy]

WOw, I didnt' think the Canucks were as anal about a flag as the yanks are !!!!!

It's only a bit of material dyed to a nice pattern :)

Pff, I'm probably one of the few in my generation that care about that, and you wouldn't think it due to my typically left-wing/liberal views but with something like this - I just get annoyed. I was annoyed that at our Remembrance Day ceremonies there were no Canadian Red Ensigns - the de facto flag of Canada during that time that our soldiers fought and died under. It pisses me off that that flag has been relegated to obscurity even though it was the flag that flew when we were born under, and the flag our country arrived on the world stage in WWI under. I will probably purchase one and one day may have a few flags flying, the Maple Leaf, the Red Ensign, and the UN flag which I see as more a symbol of humanity than of the UN.

You know it's more than a dyed material - imagine if you saw protesters burning the Saltire, or stomping on the Scottish Royal Standard - would you not be pissed? Not the same as what I saw, but still angering I think - or not? Clearly the right to do that should exist and that flag-burning amendment that was mulled over in the US is nonsense but it is still enraging.

[roosterjuicer]

I'm pissed because whoever flew it is being disrespectful. Come to think of it, I'd like to show that to a bunch of veterans and see what they thought - I bet they would not be so pleased to see the flag disrespected in such a manner.


wait a minute...Canada has veterans? what war has canada ever fought in?


(totally kidding, i know Canadians fought well in the war to end all wars (2) but in all seriousness, id be willing to wager that 95% of Americans wouldn't know that)

As to whoever says "its just a piece of fabric with colors on it" thats wrong. its a symbol of something more than any one person, it signifies all the sacrifices made over the years of people fighting for something they believed in at one time or another. saying a flag is just a piece of fabric with some dye is like saying a cross is just two pieces of wood, or a constitution is just a piece of paper with some ink on it, or a bible or a koran is just a bunch of papers with ink on them bound together.

that being said. Even though I am against flag burning and you'll never find me feeling anything but disgust toward anyone who burns one, I dont think flag burning, or using a flag in any other "political speech" kind of manner should be outlawed or made into a crime. part of what makes this country and your country great, and part of what all those brave men fought and died for is that those pricks that are disrespecting the flag have just as much of a right to do that as we pricks have to dislike them for doing it.

and to be honest, i think flying a flag upside down and at half mast is a better statement than burning one. that guy flying it at half mast and upside is saying "things are jacked up right now budday" but he still likes his country. the guy burning a flag or urinating on it is saying "this country sucks, i hate this country, sh#t on you!"

[Matra et Alpine]

all that "symbolism" crap is just so twisted.

That a society allows a person to protest by flying a flag upside down or even burniing it says much more about FREEDOM in that society than the idiots who protect it as if it was a person.


oh and "fought well" :( I really do wish you guys got decent education on wrold affarirs :(
WIthout the Canadian willingness to commit forces despite knowing the uselessness of it then D-Day woudl have been a waste of time. But it held up the German attempts to reinforce Normandy with heavy tanks.

[Kitdy]

We also fought in the war to end all wars (1).

Matra you didn't answer my question about the disparagement of the Saltire though...

[roosterjuicer]

all that "symbolism" crap is just so twisted.

That a society allows a person to protest by flying a flag upside down or even burniing it says much more about FREEDOM in that society than the idiots who protect it as if it was a person.


oh and "fought well" :( I really do wish you guys got decent education on wrold affarirs :(
WIthout the Canadian willingness to commit forces despite knowing the uselessness of it then D-Day woudl have been a waste of time. But it held up the German attempts to reinforce Normandy with heavy tanks.

1st of all. what is so twisted about it?

2) are you insinuating that we dont have FREEDOM? because we are allowed to burn or do whatever to flags here, maybe you didn't know.

3)I'd say holding up German attempts to reinforce normandy is fighting well. i dont see what your problem is here.

[Kitdy]

Dieppe was rough on our boys - you got that straight Matra.

To put our service in WWI in perspective to your guys in WWI rooster, we lost 67k, you lost 117. Our population was 7 million, yours was 92 million.

[wwgkd]

wait a minute...Canada has veterans? what war has canada ever fought in?


(totally kidding, i know Canadians fought well in the war to end all wars (2) but in all seriousness, id be willing to wager that 95% of Americans wouldn't know that)

As to whoever says "its just a piece of fabric with colors on it" thats wrong. its a symbol of something more than any one person, it signifies all the sacrifices made over the years of people fighting for something they believed in at one time or another. saying a flag is just a piece of fabric with some dye is like saying a cross is just two pieces of wood, or a constitution is just a piece of paper with some ink on it, or a bible or a koran is just a bunch of papers with ink on them bound together.

that being said. Even though I am against flag burning and you'll never find me feeling anything but disgust toward anyone who burns one, I dont think flag burning, or using a flag in any other "political speech" kind of manner should be outlawed or made into a crime. part of what makes this country and your country great, and part of what all those brave men fought and died for is that those pricks that are disrespecting the flag have just as much of a right to do that as we pricks have to dislike them for doing it.

and to be honest, i think flying a flag upside down and at half mast is a better statement than burning one. that guy flying it at half mast and upside is saying "things are jacked up right now budday" but he still likes his country. the guy burning a flag or urinating on it is saying "this country sucks, i hate this country, sh#t on you!"

Whoa! Canada has an army?

But yeah, well said.


all that "symbolism" crap is just so twisted.

That a society allows a person to protest by flying a flag upside down or even burniing it says much more about FREEDOM in that society than the idiots who protect it as if it was a person.


oh and "fought well" :( I really do wish you guys got decent education on wrold affarirs :(
WIthout the Canadian willingness to commit forces despite knowing the uselessness of it then D-Day woudl have been a waste of time. But it held up the German attempts to reinforce Normandy with heavy tanks.

If the flag wasn't symbolic, then flying it upside down wouldn't mean anything. So yes, it is symbolic. But like he said, we may not like it but we do let them do it. That's a real expression of freedom. If no one cared it wouldn't be an example of freedom to let them do it, it would just be nothing.

And yes, that is fighting well.

[Matra et Alpine]

We also fought in the war to end all wars (1).

Matra you didn't answer my question about the disparagement of the Saltire though...
thought it was obvious from my answer.

NO. It would not bother me ... adn I am very proud of my Scottish heritage. It is only a flag, it is a symbol of a nation, nothing more.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" might seem appropriate :)

I'd be happy for every flag to be burnt if it meant comfort for an old age pensioner on a winters night !!!!

I have enough confidence and belief in my nation to know that it's the people who make it, not the flag, or its leader :)

[roosterjuicer]

I have enough confidence and belief in my nation to know that it's the people who make it, not the flag, or its leader :)

we all do. :)

[wwgkd]

Dieppe was rough on our boys - you got that straight Matra.

To put our service in WWI in perspective to your guys in WWI rooster, we lost 67k, you lost 117. Our population was 7 million, yours was 92 million.

Yes, but we didn't really get a chance to fight much in WW the first. When we entered and showed that we were willing to fight the Germans decided they couldn't win and decided to get the best out of it they could. So you could say that all your deaths had less effect than our lives, which is kind of how I'd like to win a war... ;)

Seriously though, I've never seen anyone on this forum badmouth the canadian military and I consider them to be one of the most professional armies in the world, if a little on the small side. In fact, I have held them up as an example (on this forum) of why I laugh at the french. So why are you guys so sensitive over the matter? And if the french comment sparks another argument, I regret nothing. :p

[Matra et Alpine]

we all do. :)
so why ....

I am against flag burning and you'll never find me feeling anything but disgust toward anyone who burns one,
?
If you really have that strength, then why the weakness to protect an image ???

[Matra et Alpine]

Yes, but we didn't really get a chance to fight much in WW the first. When we entered and showed that we were willing to fight the Germans decided they couldn't win and decided to get the best out of it they could. So you could say that all your deaths had less effect than our lives, which is kind of how I'd like to win a war... ;)
Doesn't soudn anything to be very proud of really :(
Putting it that way makes it look a very selfish move. Did you really intend that ???

Seriously though, I've never seen anyone on this forum badmouth the canadian military
There's a been a few comments in this thread that don't recognise the Canadian forces as they deserve. So I just reminded us of the sacrifices they willingly undertook KNOWING it to be such :(

And if the french comment sparks another argument, I regret nothing. :p
But without the French you woulnd't have that flag :)

[wwgkd]

Doesn't soudn anything to be very proud of really :(
Putting it that way makes it look a very selfish move. Did you really intend that ???

There's a been a few comments in this thread that don't recognise the Canadian forces as they deserve. So I just reminded us of the sacrifices they willingly undertook KNOWING it to be such :(

But without the French you woulnd't have that flag :)

I don't really get what you mean by the selfish move. What I was (trying to)saying was the fact of our coming in on your side ended the war before we had a chance to do any fighting. According to interviews of some German generals, they though they could still fight before we came in and weren't really planning on ending any time soon. But our coming in with our industrial power and numbers meant that they could not win, so they decided to settle while they still had some strength to bargain with. They really only waited long enough to be sure we would actually fight.

Ah, I guess I've just never seen them. What I normally get is people (*coughyou* ;) ) bad mouthing our education at the drop of a hat saying we have no idea how much you've fought or how good you are.

Edit: Yes, it was our moment of weakness, but we paid them back in full.

[wwgkd]

Whoa, back on topic, what's with this? Can he do that?

VOA News - Canadian PM Shuts Down Parliament to Avoid No-Confidence Vote (http://voanews.com/english/2008-12-04-voa46.cfm)

[Matra et Alpine]

Ah, I guess I've just never seen them. What I normally get is people (*coughyou* ;) ) bad mouthing our education at the drop of a hat saying we have no idea how much you've fought or how good you are.
First, I dont' "bad mouth" , just tell it as it is.
Happy to apologise for one example you can find where I've said somethign negative about educational levels that isn't true :)

Second, I'm not Canadian, so was jsut pointing out how much THEY fought.

Third, I also know how bad we are and say it as loudly and proudly :)

There is a difference I think, I do use our own good examples when other nations are below that standard. Guess you guys don't see it when we have to then recognise where we are below the standards of say Sweden or Japan.

[The_Canuck]

lol owned.

"What you want to back door me with a coalition? How about i just suspend parliment for a month or so, muahahah."

Sounds like an evil xmas plan.

[Matra et Alpine]

Whoa, back on topic, what's with this? Can he do that?
Soudns liek they can :(
Wow, that's manipulation of the house of the worst type !!

I see the reason seems to be to let the PM come back with a budget. I think that's a sensible idea BUT should have been reached in debate in the chamber :(

Does make it soudn like a dictatorship :(
A Canadian dictator ? Not two words I ever thought I coudl see in the same sentence :)

[wwgkd]

First, I dont' "bad mouth" , just tell it as it is.
Happy to apologise for one example you can find where I've said somethign negative about educational levels that isn't true :)

Second, I'm not Canadian, so was jsut pointing out how much THEY fought.

Third, I also know how bad we are and say it as loudly and proudly :)

There is a difference I think, I do use our own good examples when other nations are below that standard. Guess you guys don't see it when we have to then recognise where we are below the standards of say Sweden or Japan.

Well, rj said canadians fought well and you instantly jumped in saying you wished we had better educations, for one. Give the context that could easily be considered badmouthing his education. And what did you want him to say, canadian fought like super men? I think "fought well" covered it and I'd say the same for our own troops as well during WW2.

Good point, I mixed up the naming there, meant canadians, not you.

Gotta admit that last part confused me. Could you reword that?

[wwgkd]

Soudns liek they can :(
Wow, that's manipulation of the house of the worst type !!

I see the reason seems to be to let the PM come back with a budget. I think that's a sensible idea BUT should have been reached in debate in the chamber :(

Does make it soudn like a dictatorship :(
A Canadian dictator ? Not two words I ever thought I coudl see in the same sentence :)

That's because he's really saddam hussein...

Wait, does anyone else here watch southpark or was that joke more wasted than usual?

[Matra et Alpine]

i know Canadians fought well in the war to end all wars (2) but in all seriousness, id be willing to wager that 95% of Americans wouldn't know that)
I didn't bring up the education wwqkd :)
Dare I suggest :) that your comprehension on this and on the last point I'd made kind of proves the point on education you are so upset over :) Coulnd't resist that !!!!! :) :) :)

Your comment about me saying how good we were was being clarified in the bit you didn't grasp. I was pointing out that I only point out the good when needing to give a reference for comparison. I also suggested you don't see when I've pointed out where we're not so good. That's part of the human psyche sadly and needs critical-thinking to manage to control it. So it's understandable.


DAMN< WIsh I'd made the SOuth Park reference now :) :) :)

[wwgkd]

oh and "fought well" :( I really do wish you guys got decent education on wrold affarirs :(
WIthout the Canadian willingness to commit forces despite knowing the uselessness of it then D-Day woudl have been a waste of time. But it held up the German attempts to reinforce Normandy with heavy tanks.


I didn't bring up the education wwqkd :)
Dare I suggest :) that your comprehension on this and on the last point I'd made kind of proves the point on education you are so upset over :) Coulnd't resist that !!!!! :) :) :)

Your comment about me saying how good we were was being clarified in the bit you didn't grasp. I was pointing out that I only point out the good when needing to give a reference for comparison. I also suggested you don't see when I've pointed out where we're not so good. That's part of the human psyche sadly and needs critical-thinking to manage to control it. So it's understandable.


DAMN< WIsh I'd made the SOuth Park reference now

Oooooh, your right he did. I feel pwnage. :o hehe

Still, your response seemed to be an attack on what he said (I may be wrong) which would then be attacking his education. And frankly, I used this as an example because I'm too lazy to look up the older post I was thinking of. So, bad call on my part and I'm still too lazy to look up the old one, so we may as well call it a day. :)

Oh, I get it now. I thought you had skipped over to scotland when you started saying we, or possibly france since I had mentioned them...
Honestly, it's 3:40 pm here and I haven't slept since 2:00 am yesterday morning (night?) when I woke up for no freaking reason and I'm having to do quite a bit of squinting just to get my eyes to focus enough to read these posts. So I'm easily confused at the moment.

Wow, I had to delete some of your smileys to fit this on (limit 10, never hit that before.)

Edit: Hey, 38 hours, not bad. Right, well before this post gets too long I'm off. Thanks for helping to keep me awake so I can make my meeting.

[Matra et Alpine]

I am a smiley-whore, sorry :)
Hope meeting goes well !!!!

[Kitdy]

Several things, when you say wwkgd why some get so sensitive over the Canadain service I hope you didn''t mean me as I was just trying to show rj that we had served a lot I know you guys came in late but the fact of the matter was we were in it for the long haul etc.

Harper suspending parliament is a good call by him as this is a firestorm issue and he wants to present a budget that will give some of the opposition demands and make them look bad if they try to overturn it. You call him a dictator, funnily enough, there was a book written about our last long time PM, Jean Chretien called "The Friendly Dictator". Harper has been known as controlling of his cabinet and caucus but that is common in Canadian politics recently it seems. The coalition, based on polls, is not as bad as the straw polls that the CBC was taking with cameras on the streets but they are still not the preferred option. The Conservatives are running a pseudo-election campaign on the radio and the ads are very slick - they use audio of Liberal leader Stephane Dion saying he would not run a coalition government with the NDP (who I think he calls socialists - I think Harper has used this terminology as well - so I guess in Canada the term socialist can be used pejoratively as well).

I don't think the shut-down of parliament is that dictatorial Matra - it is just unusual at this point but so is this coalition so whatever.