Return of the 5.0L Mustang - Ford Coyote V8

[Kitdy]

View (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/18/return-of-the-5-0-ford-exec-confirms-400-hp-coyote-v8-coming/).

Key points:
Aluminum (or Aluminium for weirdos)
4 vpc, DOHC
400 hp
400 torques
Affixed to 'Stang and F-150 sometime in 2010

Rejoice. This is great news for me - I've heard whispers of this before but with a Ford executive leaking it it seems to be plain out there and confirmed.

[Niko_Fx]

I've always had a soft spot for Mustangs, the sound of a well-modified 5.0 fox body can drive me nuts... I guess a 5.0 new gen sounds promising :) Let's hope it's not just rumors.

[digitalcraft]

While this is interesting, I think I'm still more excited about the eco-boost...

[fpv_gtho]

I dont think Russell Christophers actually confirmed anything, the original article (New 300kW 5.0-litre V8 tipped for Falcon - www.drive.com.au (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=62920&vf=2)) is more about speculation. The only thing he said was Ford were planning on replacing the current DOHC 5.4L in the Falcon with a new V8. Its well known Ford are developing both the 5L Coyote V8 and the 6.2L BOSS/Hurricane V8, and the former is a much better fit for car applications. The BOSS/Hurricane isnt even expected to be fitted to anything short of the F250 and is reported to be pretty average on economy.

[acfsambo]

I wonder if these will replace the 5.4 V8 from the falcon as well?

(Aluminium is its original and proper name)

[f6fhellcat13]

I love Five Ohs!
This is very promising if it is indeed true.

[Kitdy]

(Aluminium is its original and proper name)

Incorrect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum#Nomenclature_history).

The discoverer of Aluminum, Humphry Davy, first named it Alumium, he then called it Aluminum and the name was somehow taken away from it's discoverer (bullshit) and perverted into that nonsense you non-North Americans use as an excuse for a word.

[johnnynumfiv]

Yay for Ford designing a new engine? OMG its 5.0l, big whoop.

[P4g4nite]

I like the idea, but unfortunately the Ecoboost 3.5L V6 is going to have to be physically restrained to keep from monstering this new 5.0 in the same way that turbo Falcons were/are held back from V8 GT.

[P4g4nite]

Also, 400 feet pounds of torque seems like quite a lot for a short stroke production 5.0 from Ford. I'd expect more like 360/370.

[acfsambo]

Ford Aus. should put the 5.0L V8 in the XR8 and get the 6.2 for the FPV GT.

[clutch-monkey]

something to put into GT40 replica's :cool:

[fpv_gtho]

Ford Aus. should put the 5.0L V8 in the XR8 and get the 6.2 for the FPV GT.

The 6.2 is going to be a bit of a donkey compared to the 5L. Coyote is the natural successor to the Modular V8 whilst the 6.2 is more of a replacement for the 6.8L V10 and is likely to be only available as SOHC. I cant imagine it'll be able to accomodate VCT, which the DOHC 5L will. In short, its a truck motor. Much like the 5.4 but at least that being based off the 4.6 could take the DOHC heads.

[culver]

Also, 400 feet pounds of torque seems like quite a lot for a short stroke production 5.0 from Ford. I'd expect more like 360/370.

I *think* the modular motors are long stroke. A 5.0 motor should be rather easy. It's right in the middle of the 4.6 and 5.4 and the DOHC heads already exist in basic form. Sounds like just a small evolution of the existing engine family. That said, I'm all for it as the Mustang V8s seem much sweater in real life than their numbers would suggest. The SC 4.6L from the Fox body Cobra would have been at home in a BMW. I kid you not that thing was sooo smooth.

[Kitdy]

Bore/Stroke from UCP for the GT's 4.6 Modular V8: 90.2 mm (3.6 in) / 90.0 mm (3.5 in), so it's just about a square engine so I guess(?) that's long stroke.

[P4g4nite]

I *think* the modular motors are long stroke.The old ones were fairly square, but the Coyote is a new development with completely different block casts, a google around suggests that it will use a 102mm bore on all capacities up to 7.0L, so a 102mm X 75mm for the 5.0L, which is much more oversquare than the M5's V10.
Should be a good high spinner anyway.

[fpv_gtho]

I dont think we'll see this getting anywhere near 7L, that would be something better suited to the 6.2L as a starting base.

[P4g4nite]

I dont think we'll see this getting anywhere near 7L, that would be something better suited to the 6.2L as a starting base.

.......Wat?

[culver]

Bore/Stroke from UCP for the GT's 4.6 Modular V8: 90.2 mm (3.6 in) / 90.0 mm (3.5 in), so it's just about a square engine so I guess(?) that's long stroke.

I think the 5.4 is basically a longer stoke engine so I suspect the 5.0 would be an under square motor.

Edit: Wiki quotes the motor at 90.2 with a 105.8 stroke. However, if the 5.0 is a new engine then this is academic only.

[fpv_gtho]

.......Wat?

I havent heard the 7L figures ever mentioned for Coyote. At most, ive heard it can be stroked to 5.8L.

The 6.2L BOSS however ive heard 460 cubes mentioned.

[P4g4nite]

I havent heard the 7L figures ever mentioned for Coyote. At most, ive heard it can be stroked to 5.8L.

The 6.2L BOSS however ive heard 460 cubes mentioned.
You might be right, the more I read the more conflicting reports I get. Anyway, I don'[t know where this guy (https://www.motorgen.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17702&postcount=14) got his info but It sounds about right.

Correct my friend, the modular motors are going away. The new Ford Motors are as follows:

Ecoboost 3.5TT - Twin Turbo V6 with hp ranging from 350-365 so far. The truck version is rumored to be 400hp/400tq.

Coyota 5.0 V8 - A new 32-valve 5.0L that is expected to replace the 4.6L and 5.4L V8s in the Mustang and the F-150. Unlike the 5.4L in the trucks, the new "Coyote" V8 uses a significantly lighter aluminum block, and based on the spy pics that have just turned up, it will also use an aluminum intake manifold in place of the plastic unit used on the current V8s. The Coyote should give the Mustang GT 400 hp to play with, putting it on par with the Camaro SS but at a lighter weight. Rumored HP is 400.

Ford Boss 6.2L - The 6.2 L Boss engine will reportedly displace 379 cubic inches (6207 cc) and produce roughly 425 hp (317 kW) and 425 lb·ft (576 N·m) upon introduction. The engine architecture will offer the ability to exceed 7.3 L (≈445 cu in) in future applications. Reports indicate the Boss will retain several design similarities with the Modular V8 such as deep skirt block with cross bolted main caps, crankshaft driven gerotor oil pump, and overhead camshaft valve train arrangement. The Boss' single most significant departure from the Modular V8 will be seen in the wider 4.53 in (115 mm) bore centerline; the Modular V8 is 3.94 in (100 mm) by comparison. The 6.2 L will reportedly employ a 4.015 in (102 mm) bore diameter and a 3.74 in (95 mm) stroke to achieve it's 6.2 L of displacement. The initial versions of the Boss will have single overhead camshafts, two valves per cylinder, two spark plugs per cylinder and employ a form of cylinder deactivation for increased fuel economy and reduced emissions.

Initial information on valve sizes of the 6.2 L puts the intake valve at 2.10 in and the exhaust valve at 1.65 in. [2] Later high-performance versions will be equipped with DOHC 4-valve heads and gasoline direct injection (GDI). A "TwinForce" 6.2 L DOHC 4-valve, twin-turbo, GDI version of the Boss is being developed and has reportedly produced over 650 lb·ft (881 N·m) in testing, although there are no known plans time to install this engine in a production application.
So the new 5.0 is an oversquare, short stroke V8 for Mustangs and what else? The new Boss 6.2 is for trucks?

[clutch-monkey]

..or falcons

[fpv_gtho]

Everything ive read is basically the same as that, sans the last paragraph. From what ive heard, all performance 6.2's have been dumped and theres no plans for a DOHC version. The only solid rumours of a performance BOSS were a DOHC 5.8L motor for some sort of super-Mustang in the future (perhaps the next Cobra R) but they ditched development of the DOHC heads some time ago (perhaps they saw better scope for a 5.8 Coyote) and the heads for Coyote and BOSS arent interchangeable.

Current rumours suggest 4-6 variants of Coyote are being developed, with at least 3 specifically for Mustang, 1 for F150 and the remaining are possibilities of 2 for Falcon. The current power/torque rumours are more of a generalisation - base Mustang for example will produce more power and less torque, whilst F150 will be the opposite. The other two Mustang variants are a hipo NA version and a blown/boosted engine for GT500. Theyve apparently been nicknamed RoadRunner. Theres a good chance we'll see at least 1 variant, available off a US production line and ready to go in Falcon tuned for 95 octane and less stringent exhaust regs that is likely to see power anywhere between the normal Mustang and hipo NA Mustang motor. The other motor, well Rod Barret still wants a locally assembled V8 for FPV use.

If the 5L is oversquare, i'd imagine it wont be by much. In many ways, the 5L cammer crate motor has very much been a test bed for the motor, as theres still alot of similarity between the 5L and the Modular 4.6. The 4.6 was pretty much a square engine, the extra bore spacing the 5L has will probably accomodate the needed increase in bore rather than stroke to get the capacity.

[culver]

Interesting stuff. I haven't been following Ford engine news so this is a good update. I hope the new engine maintains much of what is good about the mod motors. The mod motors are heavy, large, not overly efficient (or maybe that's just the cars they are in) and don't produce big power. However, they are also very refined and in the case of the Mustang sound great. I hope Ford keeps the good and improves the bad.

I wounder if Ford, seeing the success of the LSx and HEMI motors considered going back to pushrods.

[nota]

The mod motors are heavy, large, not overly efficient (or maybe that's just the cars they are in) and don't produce big power.
FPV Boss 5.4L vs GM LS3 6.2L
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/nota_photo/th_FPVGTvsHSVGTS-1.jpg (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/nota_photo/FPVGTvsHSVGTS-1.jpg)

[culver]

FPV Boss 5.4L vs GM LS3 6.2L
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/nota_photo/th_FPVGTvsHSVGTS-1.jpg (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/nota_photo/FPVGTvsHSVGTS-1.jpg)

I wonder why they don't sell that one here. The most powerful NA mod engine was in the Ford GT. At 550 (with lot's of torque) it was no slouch but that's not much more peak power than the 7L LS7. It also isn't as light or small. Most of the ones we have in the US are down on power in both truck and car form. Conversely, we do get the LS3 in at least a few cars here.
Still, as I said, I like the mod motor. I've driven two cars with that engine. One was an '04 Mustang GT. It the power didn't blow me away. I was blown away by just how smooth the engine was. The Fox body Mustang was not known for great NHV control yet at idle the SC V8 could have been in a BMW. It's throttle response and smoothness through the range was remarkable. They only thing that would keep it out of a BMW was the wonderful but loud exhaust note. In comparison the LS2 Corvette engine delivered similar power but was a bit lumpy at idle.
The '05 Mustang was against so smooth. Of course this time it added a decent (not wonderful but decent) shifter to the mix.
I like the mod motor a lot but in the US applications it's always been down on power when not equipped with a blower. It isn't small and it isn't light.

[fpv_gtho]

I wonder why they don't sell that one here.

They did, somewhat. The concept was the same as the engine in the last Cobra R. Other than that, SVT were smart enough to realise a supercharged 4.6 achieved the same thing easier. Ford Aus evaluated the 4.6 as a whole, but IIRC it suffered from a lack of torque in NA form which they wouldve needed for lesser spec Falcons. Mustang doesnt have that problem being about 200kg lighter

[culver]

They did, somewhat. The concept was the same as the engine in the last Cobra R. Other than that, SVT were smart enough to realise a supercharged 4.6 achieved the same thing easier. Ford Aus evaluated the 4.6 as a whole, but IIRC it suffered from a lack of torque in NA form which they wouldve needed for lesser spec Falcons. Mustang doesnt have that problem being about 200kg lighter

The Cobra R, IIRC, wasn't road legal in the US. I believe it was due to emissions. Probably just that Ford didn't test it for US emissions rather than it couldn't meet them but I'm not sure.

[Rasmus]

The most powerful NA mod engine was in the Ford GT. At 550 (with lot's of torque) it.. was no slouch

You're not saying the GT plant was naturally aspirated, are you? :confused:

[Rasmus]

The Cobra R, IIRC, wasn't road legal in the US. I believe it was due to emissions. Probably just that Ford didn't test it for US emissions rather than it couldn't meet them but I'm not sure.

The 2000 R was quite street legal.

[nota]

Ford Aus evaluated the 4.6 as a whole, but IIRC it suffered from a lack of torque in NA form which they wouldve needed for lesser spec Falcons. Mustang doesnt have that problem being about 200kg lighter
AFAIK FoA's disinterest in the 4.6 V8 was because, despite the extra weight, size, and capacity advantage, it offered very little advantage in hp or torque over their base DOHC 6cyl. Hence FoA's first usage worldwide of both the 3-valve 5.4 and resultant 4-valve 5.4 Boss, the latter engine being locally conceived IIRC and then co-developed with Ford-NA.

FPV's premuim variant of the Boss is unique to Oz, featuring local internals and largely hand-built on Australia's only V8 production line.

This below is from an engine dyno of FPV F6 (6cyl Turbo) but nevertheless its interesting to compare the curves (such as they are!) against those V8s...

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/nota_photo/th_FORDF6graph.jpg (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/nota_photo/FORDF6graph.jpg)

[fpv_gtho]

The 4.6 wouldve been good for about 240kw/430nm if they'd taken the DOHC version for base use, which wouldve given a decent enough kick over the standard 182kw/380nm I6, but it wouldve been about half what they needed to match the Gen3 Commodores. Supercharging wouldve been a must to match that, which wouldve likely generated a one sided media shit storm anyway (although the F6 ultimately did anyway)

[culver]

You're not saying the GT plant was naturally aspirated, are you? :confused:

No. [added characters]

[culver]

The 2000 R was quite street legal.

Perhaps it was only sold to buyers with a competition license? I was never interested in the car so my recollections of the thing are fuzzy. I do recall that unlike the standard Cobra is was not quite a regular production car. IIRC, Ford really did mean for the buyers to use the car in competitions rather than just as a higher end Mustang.

It seems a bit like the original Corvette ZR1 (the C3 ZR1) where the production numbers were VERY small and if you didn't know about the car before it went on sale, it was too late to get one.

[nota]

The 4.6 wouldve been good for about 240kw/430nm if they'd taken the DOHC version for base use, which wouldve given a decent enough kick over the standard 182kw/380nm I6, but it wouldve been about half what they needed to match the Gen3 Commodores. Supercharging wouldve been a must to match that, which wouldve likely generated a one sided media shit storm anyway (although the F6 ultimately did anyway)
In Ford's evaluation of 4.6 as a whole, as you stipulated, the 4.6 SOHC V8 is a bit of a hole compared to the base Barra 6cyl. No advantage in output, economy, weight, or cost. In fact to the contrary. The 4.6 DOHC bears similar deficiencies against Falcon 6cyl turbo.

But in any case, if in the highly unlikely event that Ford chose to equip base Falcons with either 4.6 DOHC or its performance equal the turbo 6cyl, it would also have "likely generated a one sided media shit storm" beyond imagining ;)

[Rasmus]

Perhaps it was only sold to buyers with a competition license? I was never interested in the car so my recollections of the thing are fuzzy. I do recall that unlike the standard Cobra is was not quite a regular production car. IIRC, Ford really did mean for the buyers to use the car in competitions rather than just as a higher end Mustang.

It seems a bit like the original Corvette ZR1 (the C3 ZR1) where the production numbers were VERY small and if you didn't know about the car before it went on sale, it was too late to get one.

Negative. The Cobra R was available to all buyers at an MSRP of $55k. The dealers, however, had to enter in a lottery for a chance of getting one due to the limited production run of 300 cars. This, of course, added quite a bit of 'market adjustment' to the sticker price.

The R was indeed to the Cobra as the CSL was to the M3 - no radio, no AC, no rear seat, etc. - but it still was a perfectly street legal production car, albeit with a limited run.

[nota]

Cobra RA variant (A for Aus) for your interest

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/472477-post31.html