The Pony Car War Version 2.0

[Kitdy]

First off, I hoped you liked the title - so noughties of me eh?

Well as I hope all of you know, we have been in the middle the full blown second coming of the Pony Car Wars.

What with the Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang, you've got a choice of three models, each with their own engine choices - from the 3.6L LLT in the base Camaro to the 6.1L Hemi in the SRT8 Challenger, there certainly is a lot of options - 7 engine choices for the 3 cars to be exact.

This thread is about who's winning the pony car wars - I dunno where to find sales figures for individual models and have tried looking but all I get is "Camaros on Sale!" etc. So if you guys know where we can find sales figures it'd be great. Also, are these cars making money?

This thread is also about comparing these cars, and if you care, which you'd have and why. Feel free to post comparos here - this should be Pony Car Wars Part 2 Central on UCP.

Have at it!

[baddabang]

Having seen and been in each of a Mustang GT, Challenger, and just yesterday I was snooping around the local Chevy dealer and playing with a Camaro SS with the 6.2L V8 in Orange.

First and most notably is the Mustang and it's lack of horsepower. The GT only has 315, compared to the Camaro SS at 426, and the Challenger at 425.

The interior of the Camaro SS blows the other two out of the water. The challenger makes it feel like I'm sitting in a Grand Cherokee, and the Mustang makes me feel like I'm sitting in... Well, a Mustang. An automatic transmission is also standard on the Challenger, In fact I have yet to see one that is manual.

The Mustang is the smallest of the Three in size which is a plus for me. The Challenger is the biggest and it is BIG. The Camaro is large but It's not huge.

So what would I pick to have? Camaro, Mustang, Challenger. In that order. Not just because of my loyalty to General Motors but because the Camaro is an animal. Just sitting on the lot it has a presence that says I'm going to kick your ass and eat your children. $37,000 is a bit steep though.

[clutch-monkey]

thanks for the review badda
for me the camaro is sort of the weakest on looks (that's not saying much though is it?), but..if the interior is better, and that's where you are when you drive it..
plus.. GS racer!

[pimento]

I guess the power deficiency of the Mustang should be addressed when the 5.0 V8 lands.. and the ecoboost if they do it. As far as Challenger manuals go, I heard the R/T was going to be available with a manual.. that was before it appeared though, so no idea if it actually happened.

[NSXType-R]

Enjoy it while it lasts, it won't last all that much longer. :D

I'd get the Camaro.

[Rasmus]

A month ago I was out looking at a C5 Z06 and a C6 Z51, so take that as an indication of me not being biased despite my current choice of car. Also, I have been out test driving each of the following cars: Challenger SRT8 AT and MT, Challenger R/T AT, 2009 Mustang GT500, 2010 Mustang GT MT and GT MT plus track pack, and finally the Camaro SS and RS.


Exterior
Let it be known that I’m not a fan of the 2010 Mustang redesign. I’ve studied it well, and while I’m cool with the front, the rear end is just not for me. I’m fairly certain somewhere in the facelift process some retarded engineer got in the way of the designers and forced them to compromise. That said, if you are able to look at the car from an angle that hides the rear, it does look good. It looks like a pony car should.

The SS has a decidedly mean and imposing look going, and it does it well, but I think the front has some unfortunate angles to it. The area of the front quarter panels just behind the grill looks bloated for instance. However, while I like the overall badass look, I think it will detract some potential buyers who don’t necessarily want a car that looks like it eats Hyundais for lunch every day. I somehow think the Camaro design will grow old before either the Challenger or the Mustang – but I’m probably way off.

The SRT8, to me, has the most successful overall retro design. It works well from every angle. But it’s huge. It’s friggin huge, and that’s why I can’t give it the win. Getting into a Challenger almost makes you want to shout “all hands on deck!”.

SS = SRT8 = GT

Interior
The interior of the SRT8 is simply bland, boring and uninspiring. If it weren't for the small windows you'd think you were in a Chrysler 300C. Dodge got the outside right, but it seems like they completely ignored the necessity for an appealing inside. Sure, the interior works, but there’s little retro and even less pony car about it.

Both GT and SS have the right retro feel going when you’re in the driver’s seat. The GT recently got the interior update - a much needed update I might add - but it still lacks a bit in the quality of the materials used. While I prefer the design of the GT, the SS is just a bit better put together. I’m not as amazed as some at the SS interior, but I certainly like it.

I could live with either one – I’m actually quite content with the old GT interior – but if I had to pick one, I’d go for the SS.

SS > GT > SRT8

Handling
Handling wise I would have to go for the GT with the optional track pack. Compared to the SS it feels more aggressive, more alive, and sharper. Yes, there’s the live rear, and it does step out a bit every now and again, but it doesn’t detract from the fact that the GT actually does go around corners. You get the feeling that the car is smaller and lighter than it really is, and for me that translates into a more inviting ride. One that I prefer.

The SS feels planted. That’s the best way I can describe it. While it rolls a bit going into a turn, it grips well and stays there. It feels very well sorted, and it made me feel confident behind the wheel. Still, the steering is not quite as sharp as on the GT, and I actually believe the GT grips a bit better.

The SRT8, well, it's a boat. It’s big, and it’s heavy. You have a much higher seating position than in the SS and GT, and that sort of makes you feel like the captain of the good ship MS Challenger. Not a fan. Good for a cross country road trip though.

GT > SS > SRT8

Performance
The SS is faster than the GT. Pony fanboys will deny it, and Maro lovers will exaggerate it, but it doesn’t mean it isn't necessarily true. Even though it feels bigger and heavier than the GT, the SS also feels – and is – faster. It’s as simple as that. That said, there’s not the big difference that simply looking at the numbers suggests. While the GT certainly looks underpowered compared to the SS on paper, driving the two suggests they’re not far apart.

The SRT8 while not necessarily slow does feel unnecessarily sluggish. Even compared to my at the time stock 300bhp GT, the big Hemi didn’t impress me much. Don’t get me wrong, it’s quite capable of reaching comfortably illegal cruising speeds – but you still get the feeling that the speedo should read knots and not mph.

An interesting observation - to me at least - is that the auto SRT8 feels faster than the manual. Not what you'd expect, but that's the way I felt after having tried an auto and a manual SRT8 back to back.

SS > GT > SRT8

Overall
So, when it comes down to it, the GT feels like a smaller car than it is, and the Camaro simply feels overall well rounded. My pick between the two would be the SS. Only when – and if – the 5.0 makes a return in the GT will I reconsider.

That said, I find it interesting most people will compare base V8 to base V8, blindly ignoring the fact that the GT500 is still out there. If people are willing to spring for a spec’ed up SS, a GT500 is not that far away – especially not now seeing how the 2009 GT500s can be found new for less than $40k out the door. I honestly believe the GT500 is simply the overall better choice. I know of at least two people who have opted for a GT500 instead of an SS, and I have the feeling that there are other performance enthusiasts out there doing the same. This will change as the 2010 GT500 takes the place of the 2009, but for now the latter wins.

Comparing the LT to the GT is an exercise in futility. The LT and the V6 Mustang, however, is a much more interesting comparison. While the LT certainly is faster and better put together, I think the Mustang will sell better. People going for a V6 will most likely be going for looks and price over performance, and the Mustang is going to be the cheapest option out there. I know the LT starts at $23k, but I am yet to find one that carried a sticker price of less than $25k. Some have even been as high as $29k. For a V6! I think Ford will definitely win the V6 market, and I don't see the LT changing that.

The Challengers.. no, just no. The base V6 models are pointless, the R/T too slow, and the SRT8 feels like an old quarterback longing for the glory years of high school. While it will still sell, I don’t think any of the Challenger offerings will beat either Mustangs nor Camaros. The SRT8 is not a bad car. It's just that the SS and GT are both better options when it comes to picking a pony car.

So, to sum it up:
Best selling pony car: V6 Mustang
V8 pony car: SS
Performance pony car: GT500

[cmcpokey]

excellent writeup Ras. i would give yoe a +1 if the rep system existed. very enlightening and informative, and really cemented the opinions i already had.

[f6fhellcat13]

From my armchair with no real-world experience with any of them my gut tells me 'Stang, SS, and mentally-challenged whale.
My reasons, flimsy as they are, for these choices:

The Mustang is light and small. It's lightness is the single most attractive feature. I have also heard that visibility and whatnot are much greater than the competition's due to their chunkier b-pillars and higher beltlines (a nice styling trait taken much too far in current cars, imo). My only real bone to pick with the 'Stang is the lack of a six-speed on all save the GT500, and the slightly awkward rear end.

The exterior of the Camaro, from the front at least, disappoints me. It is much too reminiscent of Cadillac's "Art & Design" theme than a cohesive old-style Camaro theme. I personally prefer the look of the facelifted 4th gen. However, the back end is nice and that interior is sublime. I am also a huge fan of the LSx, so that's another box ticked for the SS. Overall, as Rasmus said, the package is good, but it is let down (at least compared to the Mustang) by a few niggling faults. I also don't think the interior is much bigger than the 'Stangs (making that a bad excuse for its size), so I can't help but think how much better it would have been if it was downsized a bit.

When I say I like these two's styling that is saying a lot. I was never a huge fan, and now I am really getting tired of retro, and especially the current style of retro. Raise the beltline, make sure the beltline travels upward so as to give the car an excessively fat ass, and give it HUJE REEIMS, YO!11! I was bitterly disappointed when the original retro 'Stang didn't get coke-bottle-hips, for instance, and instead got the wedge treatment. So I feel like the new Ford is a much more cohesive design, now that the wedge has been toned down and there is a little kick up over the rear wheels, and that the Camaro, despite its unsuccessful front is a decent looking car.

The Challenger really really annoys me. I have seen a very good number and they are almost universally driven by twats. That car's customers can put any Audi driver to shame. Also, with designers making more and more four-door coupes, it was only logical for Dodge to make a two-door sedan. This thing's flabby sides, and generally heavy styling mar a classic that really did nothing to deserve it. It's weight, though, is what annoys me the most. There is simply no good reason for it to be that heavy. Yes, I know it was built on the 300's platform, but I don't think that justifies its black-hole-inducing mass.

[cargirl1990]

i read a comparison in Motor Trend which upon had the big three muscle cars on there. i read that and the Camaro SS kicked butt. why? becuase even though the Challenger may have 6.1 liter V8 Hemi with 425bhp, the car is huge compared to its competition. the Mustang GT has a V8 engine with 315bhp. the Camaro SS? 525bhp to say the least.

[f6fhellcat13]

525bhp

What? :confused:

[clutch-monkey]

^ typo i'd say

[Ferrer]

Great review(s) indeed Rasmus, very informative and well written. And as Brendon said, more or less confirmed what I thought.

[cargirl1990]

What? :confused:

yes, i kid you not, im sure of it. it has a 'Vette engine. :D

[f6fhellcat13]

yes, i kid you not, im sure of it. it has a 'Vette engine. :D
Corvette engines do not live in 500-hp land, only in 400 and 600.

[Ferrer]

Corvette engines do not live in 500-hp land, only in 400 and 600.
In the Z06 they definitely do.

[cargirl1990]

Corvette engines do not live in 500-hp land, only in 400 and 600.


In the Z06 they definitely do.

yeah, and thats what the SS is getting. research it. or read it somewheres in a magazine.

[f6fhellcat13]

In the Z06 they definitely do.

Oh, god I'm ****ing stupid.:p
Especially seeing as that is my favorite 'Vette.

EDIT: cargirl there is no way the SS has a 525hp LS7.
There was the Camaro LS7 Concept that featured a LS7 crate engine wit 550 bhp, but that isn't 525, now is it?

[cargirl1990]

Oh, god I'm ****ing stupid.:p
Especially seeing as that is my favorite 'Vette.

EDIT: cargirl there is no way the SS has a 525hp LS7.
There was the Camaro LS7 Concept that featured a LS7 crate engine wit 550 bhp, but that isn't 525, now is it?

ahh crap, im wrong as usual, it has 426. sorry! i just looked in my Motor Trend magazine. i have a bad memory.:o

[W.R.]

Why argue about stock power outputs when forced induction modifications exist? For sheer potency, an SRT8 with a good ol' blower and straight pipes will do me fine.

[Rasmus]

Cheers mates, I appreciate it. I try not to judge a car by any of the numbers, photographs or opinions until I've actually tried it myself. In real life, the SRT8 looked bigger and felt slower, the SS looked smaller and the Mustang, well, I still didn't like the rear end and it didn't feel any different than my old GT when it was still stock. Of course, these are only my experiences with the cars in questions, and they may very well vary from the next guy's.

Again, for the people discussing numbers. You cannot base any sort of qualified decision on just the numbers. There are multiple factors that come into play such as power delivery, transmission, weight, throttle response and so on. Simply saying one number is better than the other is at the very lest ignorant. You might as well toddle off and claim a tarantula betwice as good as a golden retriever because while still hairy it has twice as many legs. It's all relative and part of a bigger picture.

The Caterham CSR260 has a 2.3 liter I4, which coincidentally is exactly half of the GT's 4.6 liter V8. The C delivers just 260bhp compared to the 315bhp of the GT, but only a flaming imbecile would consider the latter a faster car. More powerful, perhaps yes, but all things are relative, which is my point.

Now, the SS comes with the LS3 engine out of the base Corvette. Not the LS7 of the Z06. If you order the SS with an automatic, it will deliver 400bhp. If you get the manual, it gets bumped to 422bhp (or 404 and 426 respectively seeing as how Chevy recently added +4bhp to both V8s and V6s alike on their website). Here's the kicker, the automatic SS will - according to Chevy - outperform the manual in a straight line. Even with 20bhp less it's faster to 60 as well as in the quarter.

An important aspect that I deliberately didn't go into in my first post, was how each of the cars behaved as platforms for modifications. After all, that's the core of a pony car; the potential to build it into whatever you want it to be.

If you want to discuss platforms for modding, the situation gets even more complicated. The GT hits a plateau at in between 550 to 600bhp, after which you will have upgrade to forged connecting rods, forged pistons, forged everything in order to not blow a fist sized hole in the side of your block. If you can settle for a safe 575bhp/485rwhp SAE, it can be done fairly easily, and for about $5k or less. That's what I opted for. Any higher, and you'll be looking at an additional $5k in shop rebuild costs for a built motor, but it would then handle pretty much anything you could throw at it. Then again, a stroked aftermarket shortblock would be the better option still, and then you'll be able to push it well into the quad digit rwhp numbers.

The SS straight off the assembly line puts down 360-370rwhp SAE corrected - which is a heck of lot more than the stock GT puts down - but it can be pushed even further relatively easy. It will hit 500rwhp territory if you add the right CAI, longtube headers, new x-pipe, upgraded mufflers, aggressive cam and underdrive pulleys. There's a turnkey package out now that will give you that and 500rwhp, but it will set you back $6k installed and tuned.

So, consider this; 480rwhp in a still lighter FI Mustang, or 500rwhp in a slightly heavier NA Camaro? Supercharging a Mustang is something you can do yourself using basic tools(if I can, anyone can), whereas changing the cam in the Camaro is a bit tricky, and not something I'd want to do myself. Not yet anyway. The GT starts at $28k, and the Camaro SS at $31k. FI Stang vs. bolt-on NA Maro, we're looking at $33k vs. $37k. Alternatively $35.5k if you know how to and are capable of performing the work yourself. Those figures should not be considered absolute, but they should serve as an indicator of the Mustang being the cheaper option of the two. Just like it was in the past.

I am not saying either platform is best. Sure, the prices on aftermarket performance parts for the 5th gen Camaros are likely to come down as the car gets older, but so will the price on the GT parts. If your goal is 500rwhp, the two platforms are remarkably close - all things considered.

Then there's the GT500. With it you're looking at being able to push into 600 rwhp with mere bolt-ons. A $500-$1k pulleyswap and tune alone will get you comfortably into the 500's rwhp SAE corrected. Add a cold air intake and a smaller pulley, and you should be close to hitting 600. If you want to take it further, it already comes with a forged 5.4 ltr motor, which can be pushed into 800-900rwhp without even blinking. That's why, stock for stock with high HP numbers in mind, I consider the GT500 a better platform than the SS, and a heck of lot better than the GT.

I know I left out the SRT8, but I'm just not a huge fan of the car. To me, it is much too expensive for what you get. Yes, it has probably the overall most succesful exterior retro design. Yes, a blower will push it into the low 12s or high 11s in the quarter. Yes, it's a well built car and you feel comfortable behind the wheel. Yes, it has an incredibly alluring exhaust note. Yes, by all means, it's a great car, and I'd love to own one. The thing is I'd just get the SS, the GT(500), and the Caterham first.

[Ferrer]

Can't argue with any of that. :)

[P4g4nite]

Hundai Gensis, 2.0 tarbu.

[vr6pilot]

The specs on the Camaro V6 may make it the sales leader. That you can get into a car with that look, make 300+hp, and get decent mileage....that's a formula for success.

I know this thread is largely about the bigger players, but it's significant when the "entry level" model can be just as exciting as the premium models of the past. Remember: In 1994, a Cobra put down only, what....245hp ish??

[Rasmus]

It is rather remarkable, yes. These days a Miata puts down 10bhp more than a '94 V6 Camaro, or 5bhp more than a '75 L48 Corvette.

I just found the April and May sales numbers for the three cars:

Camaro 4.878,
Mustang (2009+2010) 7.699,
Challenger 2.619,

Camaro 5.463,
Mustang (2010) 8.812,
Challenger 2.695

Not divided into V6, V8 and so on, but it was the best I could find.

[Ferrer]

It is rather remarkable, yes. These days a Miata puts down 10bhp more than a '94 V6 Camaro, or 5bhp more than a '75 L48 Corvette.
It's as if from the mid 70's to the mid 90's, US manufacturers had forgotten how to make engines. Even contemporary Asian and European cars were relatively powerful compared to US cars.

[Kitdy]

Rasmus, where did you find those numbers?

[NSXType-R]

Does the Z06 still exist?

I thought the ZR1 was the only crazy performance model.

[cmcpokey]

Does the Z06 still exist?

I thought the ZR1 was the only crazy performance model.

Yeah it still exists. The ZR1 is just an additional line of the corvette. And with is selling as many as it does I doubt it will go away for a long while.

[Ferrer]

Yeah it still exists. The ZR1 is just an additional line of the corvette. And with is selling as many as it does I doubt it will go away for a long while.
I read somewhere that actually the Z06 was the better drivers car.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Does the Z06 still exist?

I thought the ZR1 was the only crazy performance model.

Sure. there would be quite a gap between the standard C6 and the ZR1 otherwise. Also, I don't think the Z06 is so expensive to produce to be eventually canned. That's probably the ZR1. Being the more expensive to manufacture.

[NSXType-R]

Yeah it still exists. The ZR1 is just an additional line of the corvette. And with is selling as many as it does I doubt it will go away for a long while.


I read somewhere that actually the Z06 was the better drivers car.


Sure. there would be quite a gap between the standard C6 and the ZR1 otherwise. Also, I don't think the Z06 is so expensive to produce to be eventually canned. That's probably the ZR1. Being the more expensive to manufacture.

Wow, didn't know that. After the ZR1 came out, the Z06 just kinda disappeared. :D

I don't foresee the ZR1 lasting too long too, especially since the G8 is canned too. I mean, they easily could have reintroduced it as a Chevy.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Wow, didn't know that. After the ZR1 came out, the Z06 just kinda disappeared. :D

I don't foresee the ZR1 lasting too long too, especially since the G8 is canned too. I mean, they easily could have reintroduced it as a Chevy.

Chevy probably need to be less American probably, at least to the eye of the average market man.

[Ferrer]

Wow, didn't know that. After the ZR1 came out, the Z06 just kinda disappeared. :D

I don't foresee the ZR1 lasting too long too, especially since the G8 is canned too. I mean, they easily could have reintroduced it as a Chevy.
But the halo power of the powerful Corvette is much higher than that of the Commodore. Hence why, despite not being a high money maker GM wants keep the ZR1 (and the Corvette itself) going.

[Rasmus]

Yes, the Z06's are still very much alive. My local dealer has a couple of handfuls of Z's sitting on the lot and in storage. They also have two ZR1's that they're holding on to. If I remember correctly, last time I inquired they were selling for ~$110k, or $5k over what the Dodge dealership down the road managed to sell their Viper ACRs for on eBay.


Rasmus, where did you find those numbers?

Google, actually. "mustang camaro sales figures"

May 2009 Dodge Challenger Sales Figures Released - ChallengerBlog.com (http://www.challengerblog.com/blog/1021185_may-2009-dodge-challenger-sales-figures-released)
April 2009 Chevrolet Camaro Sales Figures Released - CamaroBlog.com (http://www.camaroblog.com/blog/1020421_april-2009-chevrolet-camaro-sales-figures-released)

[ThisBlood147]

Well, having gotten a chance to slide into the cockpit of a 2010 Camaro (granted it was an LT and not an SS) just today, I'll offer my input. As much as the car was not really grabbing me from seeing it on the net, I have to say now that I officially wouldn't own one. The car isn't much bigger physically than the Mustang, but it feels big when you sit in it. I don't know how else to say it.......you just feel "enveloped" by the car when you're in it. The seating is low, and the dash and door panels rise up high, just about over my shoulders (and I'm 6 foot tall). The windows being so tiny make it worse. It really did feel like I was sitting in a crop top bunker looking out of the view slats. The car I sat in was an auto, so I don't know how the shifter or clutch feels on the manual cars.

The seats are pretty good, seemed pretty comfortable. The interior is put together very nicely.....very good fitment, and the materials seem pretty good. But there's nothing for it........the interior's design is just wacky. The dash goes from strange (with the two gigantic gauge "humps") to just plain bare (on the passenger's side). And the steering wheel is hopeless.....the guy behind that design needs to be "downsized". The number of ways you can grip the thing is very limited, which I didn't understand at all.

I did not get to drive it because the saleman was a bit of a prick. He didn't care to give me much attention after I mentioned I wasn't interested in buying a base model ponycar that stickered for over 30K (granted, it was fully loaded). But I just don't see it being an excellent driver's car. I just didn't feel so much that I was occupying the cockpit as much as being devoured by it. The visibility in the car was a serious concern, and the interior work did not impress me as much as alot of ppl had led me to believe it would. I can't speak for the peformance, as (like stated) I didn't get to drive it, and it wasn't an SS anyways....so.:rolleyes:

I've yet to get close to a 2010 Mustang or a Challenger. I've seen a few Challengers on the street and do think they look pretty cool. But I have no personal experience with one as of yet. I'll report back when/if I do. The wife is intrigued by the 2010 Mustang, but we're holding off any purchasing thoughts to see if Ford steps up to the new 5.0 or ecoboost for 2011.:cool:

[Kitdy]

Can you swap in a limited slip differential in a Mustang?

[fpv_gtho]

Shouldnt be a reason why not.

I'm surprised the new Mustangs are selling in such strong numbers, given their comparitively weak engines and expected replacements for next year.

[ThisBlood147]

Can you swap in a limited slip differential in a Mustang?

My 05 came with a limited slip. Am I missing something?

[#1 Mustang Fan]

Weren't they talking about putting the ecoboost in the 2010 stang? Which would up the power in the V6 to 400hp+?

To be honest I don't like the styling of the camaro SS, every time I look at it I think its smiling at me and it makes me grimace. I believe it almost looks like a boat at the front with its bow and all. At that the back Chevrolet must rear-end all their Camaro's stock, because that's what it looks like. But anyway I think the challenger has worked "classic" well, and its brought back the muscle with its aggressive body and shape. Though the dodge looks quite nice, I definitely prefer the mustang because it just adds a touch more modernity to that aggressive styling - I actually don't admire the rear of the mustang but looking at the rest of the car is just so much more pleasant than any of the others. I didn't like the shape of the mustang before 2008 (I think that's when they remodeled/reshaped it) but the renewal of the old body makes it look so much better.

My 2cents from what I can make out in NZ.

[cargirl1990]

the Corvette needs a major redesign ( exterior wise ) its in need of a new look. the ZR1 is cool, but ill always be in love with the Z06.

[f6fhellcat13]

Can you swap in a limited slip differential in a Mustang?
It's a factory option, I think.
EDIT: It is $395 for a 3.55 rear end and ltd. slip diff on the GT Premium which is $3,000 more than the base GT. It is also offered on the V6 Premium.
EDIT2: It's a free option on the GT500.

[Rasmus]

Sorry, but not quite. What you quoted was the price for a 3.31 to 3.55 gear ratio upgrade. I can't remember more recent model years, but I do know for 06 the autos came with 3.31's and the sticks 3.55's. When the Bullitt got introduced I think Ford also started offering a 3.73 upgrade.

But I digress. If you can't find any specific mention of a limited slip, it's because Ford calls it 'True Lock' - or something to that effect (they're trying to be marketing clever). It is not really an option on the US market, as it is standard on all GT's, and NA on the V6's. For V6 drag racers it's a typical aftermarket upgrade, eg. Detroit Truetrac.

[f6fhellcat13]

Sorry, but not quite. What you quoted was the price for a 3.31 to 3.55 gear ratio upgrade. I can't remember more recent model years, but I do know for 06 the autos came with 3.31's and the sticks 3.55's. When the Bullitt got introduced I think Ford also started offering a 3.73 upgrade.

But I digress. If you can't find any specific mention of a limited slip, it's because Ford calls it 'True Lock' - or something to that effect (they're trying to be marketing clever). It is not really an option on the US market, as it is standard on all GT's, and NA on the V6's. For V6 drag racers it's a typical aftermarket upgrade, eg. Detroit Truetrac.
I was going off the text blurbs in the ('10) Mustang configurator.
It says:

$395/$8 a month
3.55 Limited Slip Axle Ratio
This performance rear axle is available on GT Premium and Shelby GT500® (manual transmission only).
There is a 3.73 rear for $495 that also has better brakes.

[ThisBlood147]

Yea, I was pretty sure that all GT's had a limited slip. I know my 05 does, so I'm sure the new GT's will have it as standard equipment as well.

[Rasmus]

Yes, I can see how the text is a bit misleading. It's just the gear ratio. All V8s have a LSD.

[Rasmus]

Thread revival!

2011 model year V6 Mustangs - available in 2010 - will see the Duratec 37, ie. a 3.7L NA V6, replace the existing 4.0L V6. It will reportedly make 275+ bhp.

Still no sign of the Ecoboost, although it could end up in between the D37 and the Coyote.

[fpv_gtho]

Apparently the Ecoboost D37 will even go in the F150, so i dare say its a good chance of making it into the Mustang as well, probably at the same figures as the 5L which it reportedly will be for the F150.

[Kitdy]

Still no sign of the Ecoboost, although it could end up in between the D37 and the Coyote.

If the Coyote makes the rumoured 400 hp, why the hell would they offer an Ecoboost with around 365 hp as well? The Duratec (which I assume is related to the Ecoboost) is what I expected - an Ecoboost light.

[Rasmus]

It's a good question, and one that I don't have an answer for.

The Ecoboost is basically a 365bhp twin Garrett T15 turbocharged Duratec35, so where - if at all - it fits in I don't know. Maybe they're going to stick with NA for non-SVT applications. Maybe they're going to up the 5.0 50bhp and do a new Mach1, Boss, whatever.

From a marketing perspective it would seem odd to have a lower displacement, albeit FI, motor in the GT.

[Ferrer]

It's a good question, and one that I don't have an answer for.

The Ecoboost is basically a 365bhp twin Garrett T15 turbocharged Duratec35, so where - if at all - it fits in I don't know. Maybe they're going to stick with NA for non-SVT applications. Maybe they're going to up the 5.0 50bhp and do a new Mach1, Boss, whatever.

From a marketing perspective it would seem odd to have a lower displacement, albeit FI, motor in the GT.
Wasn't the 3rd gen Mustang GT available with the 2.3 litre turbo engine?

[Kitdy]

Mustangs do have live axles though right?

[Rasmus]

Wasn't the 3rd gen Mustang GT available with the 2.3 litre turbo engine?

Excellent point!

Indeed Ford did have a turbo Mustang once, although it was only branded as a GT for the 83 MY. In fact, for 83 it was underpowered compared to the 302 V8 in the GT. It was, however, Fords way of labeling themselves as eco friendly.

84 through 86 we saw the introduction of the special edition SVO - short for 'Special Vehicles Operation' - which became the predecessor to the SVT Cobras. The SVO also came with the turbocharged intercooled 2.3L I4, but they were now the most expensive Mustangs in the lineup. They were branded as the performance choice, and came with different sorts of racing goodies, eg. 5MT, disc brakes all around, Koni gas shocks, and even optimized pedal positioning to allow heel-toe downshifts (which I find oddly amusing for a Mustang). Power and weight wise they were on par with the V8 GTs.

The SVO died after 86 when the 302 EFI V8 was introduced, and Ford no longer had that much interest in providing a comparatively high gas mileage performance alternative to the V8s.

[Rasmus]

Mustangs do have live axles though right?

S197s do. The last model Cobras have independent rear suspension, but most modded Cobras forego the IRS in favor of a live axle. They produce too much torque to not snap the axles in a hard strip launch.

Some Cobra owners swap their rears with Mach 1 owners, who are interested in the IRS for track conversions.

[4wheelsonline]

Camaro for me. It has great looks in exterior.

[cargirl1990]

Camaro for me. It has great looks in exterior.

i'd pick the Camaro as well. BUT. i do like the Mustang and the Challenger as well. although i'd rather have a Camaro than the two! :p

[fisetdavid26]

I've just seen a Ford commercial on telly and I gotta admit the Mustang looks awesome in sky blue, not the colour I'd have thought I'd like the most... and yet :o

I also gotta admit I was very very glad to see the Fiesta in that ad: "Ford brings you European models", phuck yes.

[cargirl1990]

I've just seen a Ford commercial on telly and I gotta admit the Mustang looks awesome in sky blue, not the colour I'd have thought I'd like the most... and yet :o

I also gotta admit I was very very glad to see the Fiesta in that ad: "Ford brings you European models", phuck yes.

yeah i know! that Taurus actually looks good! its kinda sexy in a way. and finally, they bring those eye popping Euro models. i've been waiting for this for years and Ford has anwsered my prayers.

[clutch-monkey]

how much does the taurus wiegh? SHO looks awesome
waits for number plates 'SHO OFF'

[Ferrer]

how much does the taurus wiegh? SHO looks awesome
waits for number plates 'SHO OFF'
IIRC about 1800kg for the non-SHO, front wheel drive model. It is a big car...

[cargirl1990]

how much does the taurus wiegh? SHO looks awesome
waits for number plates 'SHO OFF'

the SHO fully loaded is about $45,000 for fully loaded. sorry, no weight specifications that i couldn't find. the SHO will have about 365bhp with a Ecoboost V6 engine.

[clutch-monkey]

1800kg!!!!!!

i can see why they're not about to start selling it here.
for the FWD model - wow i'd just point myself in the direction of the mondeo

edit: also, what do you guys think of this:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/22/report-s197-ford-mustang-could-have-had-independent-rear-suspen/
i wonder if it would have been as cheap - if it was an option you could tick

[cargirl1990]

1800kg!!!!!!

i can see why they're not about to start selling it here.
for the FWD model - wow i'd just point myself in the direction of the mondeo

edit: also, what do you guys think of this:
REPORT: S197 Ford Mustang could have had independent rear suspension for $100 per car (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/22/report-s197-ford-mustang-could-have-had-independent-rear-suspen/)
i wonder if it would have been as cheap - if it was an option you could tick

i wish we had the Mondeo.... :(

[f6fhellcat13]

Jalopnik published a pretty damning review of the SHO.
As is obvious to anyone not wearing their marketing goggles, it is much too heavy and soft to live up to the much-harder core name that the original SHOs established for themselves.
EDIT: here we are http://jalopnik.com/5296925/2010-ford-taurus-sho-first-drive

[fpv_gtho]

1800kg!!!!!!

i can see why they're not about to start selling it here.
for the FWD model - wow i'd just point myself in the direction of the mondeo

Taurus and Mondeo are a class apart though. Whilst Mondeo is almost as big as Falcon, Taurus would almost be as big as the Fairlane was. Hence its weight.

[clutch-monkey]

ah. in the pictures (and based off previous models..) it always seemed to look like something smaller than a falcon, like mondeo class.

[fpv_gtho]

I think thats because of the proportions. Unlike a Fairlane, theres no long boot or long cabin. Most of the time the Taurus is shown with 20" wheels, still with a decent profile tyre as well.

[clutch-monkey]

i like the proportions; they need to put it through the wash a few times, shrink it

[whiteballz]

I thought the same clutch. it looks like a massicred mondeo.

I'd take a modeo If i were to buy a ford FWD sedan.

[Ferrer]

I think that even the Mondeo has grown to big...

[clutch-monkey]

yeah. i remember the 90's models, it was sort of honda accord sized.

[Ferrer]

yeah. i remember the 90's models, it was sort of honda accord sized.
Exactly now it's as big as some E-segment cars. This however seems to have affected all Fords of lately, the Focus is also massive.

[drakkie]

Exactly now it's as big as some E-segment cars. This however seems to have affected all Fords of lately, the Focus is also massive.

Not to even talk about the Fiesta.. It's almost four meters long, which is exactly the same length as a Mk.3 Escort.. :eek:

[cargirl1990]

I thought the same clutch. it looks like a massicred mondeo.

I'd take a modeo If i were to buy a ford FWD sedan.


I think that even the Mondeo has grown to big...


yeah. i remember the 90's models, it was sort of honda accord sized.


Exactly now it's as big as some E-segment cars. This however seems to have affected all Fords of lately, the Focus is also massive.


Not to even talk about the Fiesta.. It's almost four meters long, which is exactly the same length as a Mk.3 Escort.. :eek:

cars are just getting fatter so that they can accomodate fatter people.
( North Americans are probably one of the best candidates. ) :p :D

[Ferrer]

cars are just getting fatter so that they can accomodate fatter people.
( North Americans are probably one of the best candidates. ) :p :D
I think it's more a problem of "moar because moar".

The only manufacturers which seem to be resisting this trend a bit are premium ones.

[cargirl1990]

I think it's more a problem of "moar because moar".

The only manufacturers which seem to be resisting this trend a bit are premium ones.

yeah, that could be the explanation for larger cars. i remember looking at the early 90's Accords and what not and those are like the size of entry level compact cars! or a larger sedan in the 90's is now the size of a 2nd entry level car! what the heck?

[clutch-monkey]

you'd think ford would have taken mazda's cue with the mazda 2..

[fpv_gtho]

What cue?

[clutch-monkey]

smaller/lighter for the fiesta

[fpv_gtho]

Well both the current gen Fiesta/2 and previous gen Fiesta/2 shared architecture

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The new Fiesta is lighter than the old model....

[clutch-monkey]

whoops, you're right. i mean the fat one, that's like 1500kg
the focus RS is it?

[Ferrer]

The Fiesta is lighter but bigger isn't? If it was at least the same size as the old Fiesta it would've been even lighter.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

you are right - in volume terms it's bigger, but in weight/mass terms it's smaller.

[fpv_gtho]

whoops, you're right. i mean the fat one, that's like 1500kg
the focus RS is it?

This one? http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/gallery/2009FordFocusRS/Ford-FocusRS-15.jpg

[Ferrer]

whoops, you're right. i mean the fat one, that's like 1500kg
the focus RS is it?


This one? http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/gallery/2009FordFocusRS/Ford-FocusRS-15.jpg
It's 1468kg to be precise.

[Ferrer]

It's almost two tons for the SHO Taurus.

First Drive: 2010 Ford Taurus SHO offers excellence without emotion (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/23/first-drive-2010-ford-taurus-sho-offers-excellence-without-emot/)

[clutch-monkey]

1468kg is immense for a FWD hot hatch. that's what evo's weigh iirc. or did with the EVO 9.
hell the older GTR's (or beluga whales, as they are known) aren't far off that.

[cargirl1990]

is North America getting the 2? i think we are but i need a bit of a reminder.
i saw that link you put up there Ferrer. i find that the SHO looks so basic compared to the last generation(s) Taurus.

[Ferrer]

1468kg is immense for a FWD hot hatch. that's what evo's weigh iirc. or did with the EVO 9.
hell the older GTR's (or beluga whales, as they are known) aren't far off that.
Definitely agreed. For instance the Megane R26R is about 1200kg. I prefer less weight rather than more power.

is North America getting the 2? i think we are but i need a bit of a reminder.
i saw that link you put up there Ferrer. i find that the SHO looks so basic compared to the last generation(s) Taurus.
Nope, only the Fiesta AFAIK. Also in rather ugly saloon bodystyle.

[clutch-monkey]

1200kg is pretty good for today's standards, the megane seems more hardcore than the focus RS though from what i gathered, skimming the articles haha.

[Ferrer]

1200kg is pretty good for today's standards, the megane seems more hardcore than the focus RS though from what i gathered, skimming the articles haha.
AFAIK no back seats, six point harnesses, perspex windows, carbon fibre bonnet.

So yes... :p

[clutch-monkey]

haha just a little then...
still, 1200 remains 'heavy' for a hot hatch imo. i think the new generation of hot supermini's (the 500 etc ) are the true hot hatches these days.
hell 1200kg used to be the ballpark for your average sports coupe, and now nissan is weighing in with the ~1500kg 370z...

[Ferrer]

haha just a little then...
still, 1200 remains 'heavy' for a hot hatch imo. i think the new generation of hot supermini's (the 500 etc ) are the true hot hatches these days.
hell 1200kg used to be the ballpark for your average sports coupe, and now nissan is weighing in with the ~1500kg 370z...
I agree. Even the Abarth 500 is comparatively fat. IIRC it weights about 1000kg which is a lot for a car the size of a shoe. It's not quite as fat as the Mini though, the supercharged one almost matches the Megane R26R 1200kg figure...

I remember driving a Polo GT Mk II (about 20 years old, a bit less propbably). It had nothing, including no power and no brakes. But because it had no weight, about 750kg, it was fun. I want more of that. Which is why I need a big garage and lots of 80's cars... :)