UK police replacing the Imprezas with Lexus IS-F cruisers

[4wheelsonline]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/07/lexusisfpolice_03_hi_opt.jpg



"The Lexus was tested during a 12-month period along with similar vehicles and proved itself to be ideally suited in providing a dynamically safe high performance chassis along with an electronically stable platform for the computer equipment. In the past this equipment has placed huge demands on vehicles but the Lexus IS-F easily met with our requirements. The final product provides a most formidable package and is undoubtedly one of the most advanced police vehicles in the world which in turn enables my officers to deal with the criminals who use the roads for serious and organized crime."

The Lexus IS-Force, an IS-F that has been converted to a cruiser for police duty in the English county of Humberside, also includes the notoriously criminally minded port city of Hull. For the past few years, Humberside bobbies have been chasing baddies in Subaru Imprezas, but the AWD cars just weren't up to the task at hand.

[Spastik_Roach]

Has to be up there with the best looking cop cars. Liked the pic of a Japanese R34 Skyline GT-R Cop car though...if anyone wants to fish it up

[wwgkd]

Wow, nice.

[Clivey]

They still use Imprezas, Evos etc - they're more than adequate for the job they do...but this just proves that our Police don't muck about. Very few people escape from the police in the UK in a full-blown chase using cars now - especially when the pursuit cars are being directed by this:

http://www.eurocopter.ca/asp/images/EC145_MetPolice1MB.JPG

It can, amongst other things, read your registration plate from a mile away and you can't really hide anywhere outdoors because the thermal imaging is so good that they can find you even if you've hidden in a dumpster / forest / river etc.

[LeonOfTheDead]

The Lexus IS-Force, an IS-F that has been converted to a cruiser for police duty in the English county of Humberside, also includes the notoriously criminally minded port city of Hull. For the past few years, Humberside bobbies have been chasing baddies in Subaru Imprezas, but the AWD cars just weren't up to the task at hand.

What's your purpose here?
Autoblog isn't blocked on my computer, and if I want to read news on this forum, I would like them a bit more exhaustive, not just 3 lines, an in-line images and that's all.
Stop this.

[Matra et Alpine]

Also, this looks like one of the many "specials" that are circulated around the different forces to tempt them in to buying.
The EVO one used to return to a dealership in Edinburgh between "test drives" :)

and EVERY Chief Inspector says how good the car is and makes sure of good publicity in the hope of being able to negotiate a better price from the manufacturer.

Each force in the UK is free to buy which car it wants for police use - be it normal beat work or pursuit.

So i'd only read this as susual marketing -- like marked up Lambos -- and not get excited until someone ACTUALLY orders :)

As Clivey said, there's less call for "pursuit" cars in the marjor trouble areas.
And with our congested roads you know you can always find a place to box them in further on :)

[LeonOfTheDead]

The two Italian police Gallardos are effectively used, but they were basically a "gift", not really purchased or ordered by the Police.

[drakkie]

The two Italian police Gallardos are effectively used, but they were basically a "gift", not really purchased or ordered by the Police.

Then why didn't they give me one for my birthday ? :D

[LeonOfTheDead]

Then why didn't they give me one for my birthday ? :D

Because you are a always-drunk-party-boy :p

[Roentgen]

What's your purpose here?
Autoblog isn't blocked on my computer, and if I want to read news on this forum, I would like them a bit more exhaustive, not just 3 lines, an in-line images and that's all.
Stop this.

Just look at his name. It's obvious he wants to be the news presenter on this website.

But for discussion sake, a while ago, they made a few Caparo T1s as highway pursuit cars. I think those are more menacing than something which to most uneducated people would just be a Lexus :)

[derekthetree]

I'll have to look out for them, I live about 20 miles from Hull. I've recently seen some of the Evos and Imprezas they have.

About half of every "Police Camera Action" seesm to be from Humberside, but I'm never sure why....

[LeonOfTheDead]

Just look at his name. It's obvious he wants to be the news presenter on this website.

But for discussion sake, a while ago, they made a few Caparo T1s as highway pursuit cars. I think those are more menacing than something which to most uneducated people would just be a Lexus :)

I don't think so, the Caparo is so un-road-ish even a small hot hatch could smoke it. Wasn't that a one-off btw?

[RacingManiac]

If I see a Caparo, I'd slam on the brake, let it hit my trunk, and takes off...too fragile...

[dydzi]

I don't think so, the Caparo is so un-road-ish even a small hot hatch could smoke it. Wasn't that a one-off btw?

of course not, it's in production

[LeonOfTheDead]

of course not, it's in production

I meant the police version, of course.

[NSXType-R]

If I see a Caparo, I'd slam on the brake, let it hit my trunk, and takes off...too fragile...

It'd probably get stuck over a speed bump. :D

[cargirl1990]

nice pick for a police car. the IS-F should definatley do the job.

[wwgkd]

It'd probably get stuck over a speed bump. :D

That's why police out in the country often have a pickup on the force. Otherwise something like my jeep would just cross a rough field and be gone.

[f6fhellcat13]

I would like to see the full police analysis, proving than £ for pound this is better than the competition.
As Matra said; as of now, this seems to mostly be hot air.

[coolieman1220]

i'm still more scared of this bad boy

don't know why my attachment isn't working

http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2006_08_charger.jpg

[DesmoRob]

i'm still more scared of this bad boy

don't know why my attachment isn't working

http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2006_08_charger.jpg

Only until you get to a corner, then you'll be okay :D.

[f6fhellcat13]

I saw some of LA's finest cruinsin' in a Charger the other day, and I have to admit I laughed. I guess I am too used to Crown Vics, but also the Charger tries too hard to look intimidating and pretty much fails.

Sledge, have you guys jumped ship to Chargers or are you sticking with your 4x4?

[Roentgen]

I don't think so, the Caparo is so un-road-ish even a small hot hatch could smoke it. Wasn't that a one-off btw?

I was just reading up on it, and it seems like Jeremy Clarkson and Co. along with the Metropolitan Police built it just for the MPH show. Then it goes on the say that is would be deployed on the M25 Motorway.

That would actually mean it's ok, unless of course it had a crash, because motorways have no speed bumps right?!

[Black Edition]

wow, an IS-F for a police car. awesome. what's next?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

So like...what does this do for their green Credentials?

Plodders using Panda's get Smart cars, and choose a lumbering V8 for their pursuit vehicle? seriously?

[DFH]

an lexus ISF how scary iw ould be scared if they are going to use super cars... a lexus is easy to outrun even if it has an V8 with an 8-speed auto gearbox

[G35COUPE]

I saw some of LA's finest cruinsin' in a Charger the other day, and I have to admit I laughed. I guess I am too used to Crown Vics, but also the Charger tries too hard to look intimidating and pretty much fails.

Sledge, have you guys jumped ship to Chargers or are you sticking with your 4x4?

At a minimum, the police Dodge Charger is probably a Dodge Charger R/T, and it is pretty fast. It can generally run down any car that isn't deemed a super car, and bumping its horsepower by about another 20 - 30 horses is easy and relatively cheap to do. I KNOW, because I have run with chargers, and their acceleration is insane. I won't even go into the Dodge Charger SRT-8--thats another story for another day.

[G35COUPE]

an lexus ISF how scary iw ould be scared if they are going to use super cars... a lexus is easy to outrun even if it has an V8 with an 8-speed auto gearbox


Highly doubtful. Even the Lexus IS-350 V-6, the younger sibling of the IS-F, runs the same 0-60 times as a Ford Mustang GT V-8.

The IS-F will do that time in about 4. 6 to 4.7 seconds. If you are not a real supercar like the Porsche 911 Turbo or a Nissan GTR, you are toast with a lexus IS-F, up to and including a Dodge Charger SRT-8 V-8, a BMW M3 V-8, Camaroos, etc. Do not run if you ever see one with its light flashing blue right behind you.:)

[cargirl1990]

At a minimum, the police Dodge Charger is probably a Dodge Charger R/T, and it is pretty fast. It can generally run down any car that isn't deemed a super car, and bumping its horsepower by about another 20 - 30 horses is easy and relatively cheap to do. I KNOW, because I have run with chargers, and their acceleration is insane. I won't even go into the Dodge Charger SRT-8--thats another story for another day.

the Charger: good performance, ugly design. :D ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

So like...what does this do for their green Credentials?

Plodders using Panda's get Smart cars, and choose a lumbering V8 for their pursuit vehicle? seriously?

"Pursuit vehicle" and "green" are never going to be in the same sentence.

Yeah a Smart is going to catch a 911 :)

[cargirl1990]

"Pursuit vehicle" and "green" are never going to be in the same sentence.

Yeah a Smart is going to catch a 911 :)

how about a Tesla Roadster? but then again, it still wont catch the criminals.

[NSXType-R]

i'm still more scared of this bad boy

don't know why my attachment isn't working

http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2006_08_charger.jpg

That depends on what engine is under the hood. If it's the V6, then there really isn't much to worry about.

[NSXType-R]

"Pursuit vehicle" and "green" are never going to be in the same sentence.

Yeah a Smart is going to catch a 911 :)

You'd be surprised.

Granted, they aren't pursuit vehicles, but the NYPD does have Toyota Priuses and Nissan Altima Hybrids.

[Rasmus]

At a minimum, the police Dodge Charger is probably a Dodge Charger R/T, and it is pretty fast. It can generally run down any car that isn't deemed a super car, and bumping its horsepower by about another 20 - 30 horses is easy and relatively cheap to do. I KNOW, because I have run with chargers, and their acceleration is insane. I won't even go into the Dodge Charger SRT-8--thats another story for another day.

SHP are using R/Ts, and they top out at 150'ish. Regular PD is just the V6. Not trying to be an ass about it either, but the R/Ts are being outrun around here. Not even the SRT8s are that hard to outrun either.

That being said, I'm not the one to run from the PD.

[Matra et Alpine]

You'd be surprised.

Granted, they aren't pursuit vehicles, but the NYPD does have Toyota Priuses and Nissan Altima Hybrids.
Can't say for the NIssan. but having driven one there is NO way a Prius coudl ever be used for pursuit.
Skinny tyres, weight in all the wrong places ?
It woudl be troubled trying to d a PIT maneouver on a granny on a buggy :)

[G35COUPE]

SHP are using R/Ts, and they top out at 150'ish. Regular PD is just the V6. Not trying to be an ass about it either, but the R/Ts are being outrun around here. Not even the SRT8s are that hard to outrun either.

That being said, I'm not the one to run from the PD.

What is SHP?? Do you mean "State Highway Patrol"?? I was talking about acceleration and not top speed. No doubt some PD will use V-6 Charger versions---maybe to serve warrants or to conduct interstate inmate transfers, etc. However, it is unlikely that the versions they use to hand out tickets on highways are V-6 versions. They are most likely V-8 versions,a nd you can hear that distinct v-8 sound when they pass you.

Finally, please, name the cars you claim are outrunning the R/Ts. And also can you name the cars that beat the SRT-8s that easily?

[Rasmus]

SHP; State Highway Patrol. Let me preface this with saying that I always slow down and stop when a LEO is coming up behind me and flashes the blues. Yes, sometimes I speed, but I'm willing to take the ticket and not endanger anyone's life.

Anyway, the problem for the LEOs is acceleration, not the top speed. They're sitting stationary at the side of the road, or on the grass median. Sometimes they're even going the opposite direction on the highway, in which case they will have an even greater disadvantage.

Let's do this with a real world scenario instead of paper racing. Let's say the R/T is parked in the median, which they usually are. A car flies by doing 100. Now, from a standstill, and under ideal circumstances, it's going to take a stock AWD R/T around 14 seconds to get to 100mph. Assuming the offender stays at 100, he will have moved at least .6 km down the road from the LEO's starting point -- of course the LEO will be further down the road as well, but it's going to be one big gap. Then add the fact that the LEO is starting off on grass, rubble or what have you, and has a car that's seen extra modifications adding weight, and it's not terribly difficult to see where they're losing out. By the time he gets up to a 100, I can almost guarantee you I will be at 150 and climbing in my car. Then again, I don't run. My point is, the initial gap is what will allow offenders to get away. No, Chargers are not more intimidating than the Crown Vics in that regard. No, you can't outrun radio, but unless it's a sting there won't be another LEO close by.

We have quite a few of what we call "Mexico cars", and they're all quite capable of outrunning the SHP. Amongst those are stock and modified C6 Z06s, Terminator Cobras and GTOs. As for actual stories about cars outrunning the PD, I know of two stock Terminators that each outran a SHP Charger R/T on two separate occasions in two different states. One happened as late as last week at Mustang Week in Myrtle Beach. Then comes the modified cars. Heck, even an S2000 can outrun the SHP. I've been told by a LEO that one up in Durham has done so on three separate occasions.

If you want to talk acceleration, a stock Charger SRT8 does a mid'ish to high 13 second quarter mile on my local track; Fayetteville Motorsports Park. I've only seen a 13.6 as the fastest, but I know that under ideal circumstances they're capable of 13.3's. On the other hand, I was in the low 13's with my at the time close to stock, naturally aspirated Mustang GT. All I had was a $400 CAI and tune -- here's a link to a 13.2 slip: http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3513/132435slip.png.

If you want to talk stock cars that will easily beat an SRT8, I suggest you look at any of the C6 Vettes, a C5 Z06, the Goats, any of the old LS1 Camaros or Firebirds, the new Camaro SS, a Shelby GT500, or a Termi. Most of them are 12 second cars stock, and several are much cheaper than the SRT8. Mildly modified there are lots of cars that will outrun it. The 350Z with a CAI springs to mind.

While I was still NA, my experience taught me that I would happily run any Charger, Challenger, 350Z, Cobalt, Skittle or LT1 at the track. LS1 too if it didn't sound like it had cams done. I would actually be more worried if the trunk badge said SRT4, than if it said SRT8.

Again, I'm not trying to stir up any shit here, but with Chargers the LEOs are still losing. And an SRT8 badge doesn't really mean all that much.

[Kitdy]

What the hell is a Skittle Rasmus?

[Rasmus]

Skittle is an SRT4. They're small, round, and come in all sorts of bright colors.

WRX; Scooby. 240; kouki. GTO; Goat. LS1; oh damn. LT1; oh lulz.

[Clivey]

Can I just point something out? The Police don't have to have pursuit cars with better acceleration than the crims in order to catch them.

The average pursuit car in the UK is a Volvo V70 T5. There are loads of cars that can beat the Volvo's 0-60 (6.6 seconds, more when the Volvo is loaded with Police kit), but none that can beat the speed of the short wave radio used to tell the unit up the road to set-up a stinger.:)

[G35COUPE]

SHP; State Highway Patrol. Let me preface this with saying that I always slow down and stop when a LEO is coming up behind me and flashes the blues. Yes, sometimes I speed, but I'm willing to take the ticket and not endanger anyone's life.

Anyway, the problem for the LEOs is acceleration, not the top speed. They're sitting stationary at the side of the road, or on the grass median. Sometimes they're even going the opposite direction on the highway, in which case they will have an even greater disadvantage.

Let's do this with a real world scenario instead of paper racing. Let's say the R/T is parked in the median, which they usually are. A car flies by doing 100. Now, from a standstill, and under ideal circumstances, it's going to take a stock AWD R/T around 14 seconds to get to 100mph. Assuming the offender stays at 100, he will have moved at least .6 km down the road from the LEO's starting point -- of course the LEO will be further down the road as well, but it's going to be one big gap. Then add the fact that the LEO is starting off on grass, rubble or what have you, and has a car that's seen extra modifications adding weight, and it's not terribly difficult to see where they're losing out. By the time he gets up to a 100, I can almost guarantee you I will be at 150 and climbing in my car. Then again, I don't run. My point is, the initial gap is what will allow offenders to get away. No, Chargers are not more intimidating than the Crown Vics in that regard. No, you can't outrun radio, but unless it's a sting there won't be another LEO close by.

We have quite a few of what we call "Mexico cars", and they're all quite capable of outrunning the SHP. Amongst those are stock and modified C6 Z06s, Terminator Cobras and GTOs. As for actual stories about cars outrunning the PD, I know of two stock Terminators that each outran a SHP Charger R/T on two separate occasions in two different states. One happened as late as last week at Mustang Week in Myrtle Beach. Then comes the modified cars. Heck, even an S2000 can outrun the SHP. I've been told by a LEO that one up in Durham has done so on three separate occasions.

If you want to talk acceleration, a stock Charger SRT8 does a mid'ish to high 13 second quarter mile on my local track; Fayetteville Motorsports Park. I've only seen a 13.6 as the fastest, but I know that under ideal circumstances they're capable of 13.3's. On the other hand, I was in the low 13's with my at the time close to stock, naturally aspirated Mustang GT. All I had was a $400 CAI and tune -- here's a link to a 13.2 slip: http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3513/132435slip.png.

If you want to talk stock cars that will easily beat an SRT8, I suggest you look at any of the C6 Vettes, a C5 Z06, the Goats, any of the old LS1 Camaros or Firebirds, the new Camaro SS, a Shelby GT500, or a Termi. Most of them are 12 second cars stock, and several are much cheaper than the SRT8. Mildly modified there are lots of cars that will outrun it. The 350Z with a CAI springs to mind.

While I was still NA, my experience taught me that I would happily run any Charger, Challenger, 350Z, Cobalt, Skittle or LT1 at the track. LS1 too if it didn't sound like it had cams done. I would actually be more worried if the trunk badge said SRT4, than if it said SRT8.

Again, I'm not trying to stir up any shit here, but with Chargers the LEOs are still losing. And an SRT8 badge doesn't really mean all that much.

1. You use a lot of fancy words. What is a LEO??:confused: By the way, thanks for the response.

2. Why are you raising a hypothetical situation about the police staying on grass and all what not?? Most people will slow down when the see the blue light. So your hypothetical story is just as even or as incredible as my hypothetical assertion about people slowing down. I wasn't asking you about some hypothesis. I was asking you about facts---from a stand still, which is also hypothetical, how many cars will outrun a Dodge R/T?.

3. What is a "Mexico car"????:confused: I can't beleive I am hearing all these new terms eventhough we live in the same country. I must be living under a rock or a very secluded cave. :D

4. The GTO is probably on the same level as the Dodge SRT-8, and both are one step ahead of the Dodge R/T. A stock Z06 and GT500, are one step ahead of the Dodge SRT-8 and GTO. Each of these cars has at least a 5.7 Litre or a 6.2L V-8 engine in them, and taken together, are all mostly faster than the Dodge R/T---more horsepower and torque in most cases. So, you are comparing apples to oranges here. And how many of these cars do you really see running around our highways everyday???? Very few to warrant any remarks on them being associated with cops pulling them over.

5. All the smaller cars you talked about in your story (S2000), if true, probably had forced induction systems. As a naturally aspirated car, which of the small cars you metioned is capable of matching the Charger R/T one-on-one???? Using an S2000 as an example is really fishy and suspect. An S2000, has so little torque that it is laughable. Do you ever wonder why it has to rev up to 8000 - 9000 rpm to stay in a real race???

6. Your quartermile numbers for an SRT-8, is even more suspect and troubling. A stock charger SRT-8 will do a quarter mile most likely in less time, on a good day or if it is functioning properly. Mid to high 13s is the time a mildly modified G-37 or a stock 370Z will easily achieve.

7. I don't need the link. I already know that a lightly modified Mustang GT will do a mid to low 13s on the quarter mile. Its performance is at par with the performance of a stock Nissan 370Z.

8. Again, you make very suspect comments. A Z06 and a GT500 are on a level or step higher than a Dodge SRT-8. Again, you compare apples to oranges. Perhaps the C6 vette or their 2009 LT1 and LT2 versions, may be on the same level as the Dodge SRT-8. And by the way, the power-to-weight ratio of the Vette (this means the vette is lighter than the Charger) is always going to be better than that of the Charger. Charger weighs about 4,000 pounds while the Vette weighs about 3,100 pounds. So, the weight advantage the vette has, is painfully obvious. Less weight, better acceleration.

9. A lightly modified 350Z will struggle hard to make it to the high 13s on the quartermile. I know because the engine in my car is the VQ35DE engine, same as that in the early generation 350Zs. This result gets better with 350Zs that have the VQ35HR engines.

10. Again, your final comments worry me a great deal. Why would you take Dodge SRT-4 over a Chevy Cobalt SS??? The Dodge SRT-4 is prone to lag because it uses a turbo, and the Chevy SS Cobalt is generally free of lag because it uses a supercharger. In fact, the turbo lag in the SRT-4 is so bad that i was amazed at how good the turbo in the Mazda Speed 3 really is. And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??

I personally ran a Dodge SRT-4 prior to modifications in my car and i was surprised at how slow it was in picking speed, and yet it was suspiciously hailed as king of small cars. If I had the modifications I have in my car today, then, it wouldn't even be close. Try running a Chevy Cobalt SS and it will hand you your behind without even a blink. A stock Chevy Cobalt SS will spank a Mustang GT without breaking a sweat. Even a stock Corvette has to work relatively hard to beat a Chevy Cobalt SS, on a bad day.

11. Contrary to your comments, the GT500, the Z-06, and the base Vette LT1 and LT2 versions are all more expensive than the Dodge SRT-8, by at least $10, 000 or more.

12. The V-8 Camarro is a complete slouch. It has about the same performance numbers as the Ford Mustang GT and the Nissan 370z, eventhough it has a lot more horsepower under the hood. The V-6 Camaro version seems to be a better performer than the V-8 version. Frankly, the V-8 Camarro and the Pontiac G8 GT, are about the worst performing muscle cars GM has ever made because of their unnecessary heavy weight, though they look great in person.

13. And for the record, I have run with most of these cars and so I am giving you first hand information.

14. Finally, how many people do you think can afford a Z06 or a GT500 that can technically outrun a Police Dodge R/T or a Dodge SRT-8 under almost any condition?? Are these cars so common in your area, which i doubt they are, that you speak of them as if they are taxi cabs?? I was asking you for daily drivers that can outrun a Police Dodge Charger R/T, since most cars on the road are daily drivers. I still haven't gotten a convincing response from you.;)

[Matra et Alpine]

Can I just point something out? The Police don't have to have pursuit cars with better acceleration than the crims in order to catch them.
To operate the UK "box" system they do need cars that can match acceleration of the crims.

The average pursuit car in the UK is a Volvo V70 T5.
2 things imho ....
1. The T5 is a capable handling and performing car.Been 4 up in a T5 with a professional race driver on a trackday and also had the "pleasure" of being taken for a drive in a police old style T5 years back. ( and NO, it was in the front seat NOT the back :) )
2. It's the driver that makes the difference :)

radio I agree, but only if you can keep "eyes on".

[wwgkd]

I'd just like to point out that there is a problem with lighter wieght cars, and cars with no back seats as regular police cars. Light weight cars can't pit very well since they take quite a bit of damage, and that's something that chargers do very well. Police versions have taken an incredible amount of abuse including running over stuff that would total a Z06. Also, having a back seat is nice for when you actually need to arrest someone. Very few times in the course of a police officers career does he actually need to chase down a Z06 or terminator cobra or the like. Quite often they do have to haul someone in for drunk and disorderly.

[coolieman1220]

when i drive 95 thru NC, i use my V1 and catch nothing. the roads are sooo horrible doing 150 is incredibly dangerous on those bumpy roads.

prius is only used by traffic enforcemnt agents, not NYPD cops

[Rasmus]

Part 1/3


1. You use a lot of fancy words. What is a LEO??:confused: By the way, thanks for the response.


You're welcome. I enjoy a discussion as much as anyone. A LEO is a Law Enforcement Officer. English is not my primary or secondary language, so thank you for noticing my terribly fancy words.



2. Why are you raising a hypothetical situation about the police staying on grass and all what not?? Most people will slow down when the see the blue light. So your hypothetical story is just as even or as incredible as my hypothetical assertion about people slowing down. I wasn't asking you about some hypothesis. I was asking you about facts---from a stand still, which is also hypothetical, how many cars will outrun a Dodge R/T?.

First off, this thread was about faster than average police vehicles , and not general performance characteristics of a family 4-door saloon. It seems like I have struck a nerve with you for not being impressed by the R/Ts.

Secondly, the situation described is is not a hypothetical situation. This is the situation here in NC in which people can get away, simply because the LEO from a starting point is at a severe disadvantage.

The point I tried to make to you, was that it doesn't matter if it's a Crown Vic or a Charger R/T. Neither is fast enough to catch the people in fast cars who know radar has been on them when they were going 100mph, and have subsequently decided to run. They are long gone by the time the LEO gets up to speed. The gap is simply too big for the police vehicle in pursuit to catch up. If you fail to consider this, we cannot continue this part of the discussion.

Now as for the psychological aspect of being pursued by the police, yes, most people of course will slow down and pull over. Some, however, will not even see the lights.

Since the main focus of the thread has turned, to make it easier for the mods, I split the second part of my answer into separate posts.

[Rasmus]

Part 2/3

If we're talking about a plain old stock Charger R/T, I believe it will do an estimated low to mid 14 second quarter mile, and a low 14 only under excellent conditions. With bolt-ons it might just dip into the 13s. That, to me, is horribly slow, and it doesn’t impress me.

The following cars, given the same driver, will easily be capable of outrunning an R/T on a track:

05-09 Nissan 350Z
10 Nissan 370Z
05-09 Mustang GT, incl. Shelby GT, Bullitt et. al.
10 Mustang GT
00-01 Mustang Cobra, non-FI
03-04 Mustang Cobra
98-02 LS1 Camaros and Firebirds
10 Camaro SS
08-10 Cobalt SS
03-05 SRT4
E46 M3

And this is just off the top of my head.

As for cars that it will run even with and sometimes beat, the following spring to mind:

03-04 Nissan 350Z
10 Camaro V6
04-10 Honda S2000, with the later MY having the advantage.



3. What is a "Mexico car"????:confused: I can't beleive I am hearing all these new terms eventhough we live in the same country. I must be living under a rock or a very secluded cave. :D


Being disrespectful will get you nowhere, especially on these boards. Please reconsider your tone.

The term Mexico, with regards to high powered cars, started being used on primarily online forums as well as on video hosting sites as a disclaimer for doing 40-roll and 60-roll races on Interstates and highways. Thus, a Mexico Car is one that does high speed runs on public roads. As it has turned out, most of these cars are not your average street racing car, but instead more powerful, modified supercars and built muscle cars capable of +180mph.



4. The GTO is probably on the same level as the Dodge SRT-8, and both are one step ahead of the Dodge R/T. A stock Z06 and GT500, are one step ahead of the Dodge SRT-8 and GTO. Each of these cars has at least a 5.7 Litre or a 6.2L V-8 engine in them, and taken together, are all mostly faster than the Dodge R/T---more horsepower and torque in most cases. So, you are comparing apples to oranges here.


I am glad we seem to agree on the hierarchy, and that all are faster than both SRT8 and the R/T. They all compare on some levels though. I fail to see where engine displacement comes into play as the R/T has a 5.7, the SRT8 a 6.1, and the GT500 a 5.4 albeit supercharged. Whether or not the Hemis are good engines doesn’t really matter since they have plenty of vehicle to lug around.



And how many of these cars do you really see running around our highways everyday???? Very few to warrant any remarks on them being associated with cops pulling them over.



I believe I see more of these cars running around daily than most people, so I will of course give you that.

Just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from: My local shop just built a 1080rwhp '98 Mustang for the street *). I was in an 816rwhp twin turboed '98 Cobra the other day *). I know of at least three 03-04 Cobras pushing around 600rwhp, one is at 890rwhp *). There's quite a few blown S197 GT's over 500rwhp *). I know three people with C5 and C6 Z06's with most of them being modified. I know of at least one local twin turboed Viper in the quad digit rwhp range. There are multiple LS1 F-bodies in the high 400's and low 500’s NA. I see different, stock Shelby GT500's at least once or twice a week. I have grown used to these cars, and now no longer consider my old M3 as fast.

*) Videos of dyno pulls at the shop I frequent have been added in the Appendix.

I am by no means saying these cars make up the majority, but I am saying that, yes, these cars do exist, and yes, I see them on the street. Just because they are fast or expensive cars doesn't mean people don't use them. These are the cars that I was referring to in my original post. Some of these cars are Mexico Cars. Some of them have run from SHP Charger R/Ts.

I am also not saying outrunning the police happens on a regular occasion. That would be preposterous. I am merely saying that, yes, it does happen. I do not condone it, but it happens.




5. All the smaller cars you talked about in your story (S2000), if true, probably had forced induction systems. As a naturally aspirated car, which of the small cars you metioned is capable of matching the Charger R/T one-on-one???? Using an S2000 as an example is really fishy and suspect. An S2000, has so little torque that it is laughable. Do you ever wonder why it has to rev up to 8000 - 9000 rpm to stay in a real race???


As for the S2000, I honestly don't know about the one the Officer referred to. Most likely it was not stock. Most S2000s I see on the track or on the street seldom are.

Please refer to the above mentioned list of cars, and feel free to subtract the FI cars, although I'm not sure why you seem to want only NA cars. Big displacement NA and low displacement FI, are both ways of producing torque.

Apart from that, an S2000 will run close to heads up with a Charger R/T on a drag strip. They're both mid to low 14 second cars, with the advantage depending on the S2000 MY going to the R/T. I mentioned it in my previous post as a way to illustrate that even a relatively slow car has been and will be able to run from the police, if the initial gap is there. Again, the gap is the one thing that will allow a successful (depending on how you view it) getaway.

And no, I haven't wondered why it needs to rev. It's called variable valve timing and lift control. Peak torque doesn't necessarily matter as much as torque over time. The Toyota RVX-06 put out 202 lbs-ft (or 274Nm) of torque, but still had a mean effective pressure of 14.3 bar, or roughly the same maximum MEP as that of the I6 in the E46 M3 CSL. I would hardly call the Toyota engine weak or ineffective. But I digress.



6. Your quartermile numbers for an SRT-8, is even more suspect and troubling. A stock charger SRT-8 will do a quarter mile most likely in less time, on a good day or if it is functioning properly. Mid to high 13s is the time a mildly modified G-37 or a stock 370Z will easily achieve.


There is nothing magical about my numbers or the SRT8's performance. It is not a stellar performer. The platform is too heavy, and the first few generations of SRT8s had horrible shift point settings in their automatic transmissions.

Again, a stock SRT8 under ideal circumstances such as a low density altitude will do a 13.2-13.3 quartermile. At my local track they have run mid 13's mainly due to the average 1500-3500 ft. DA. I have not to this day seen a Charger SRT8 run faster than a 13.6 on that track. This is what I stated before, and I stick by it.

I will refrain from speaking of the Infinitis, as I have not had the pleasure of either running one or seen one running.



7. I don't need the link. I already know that a lightly modified Mustang GT will do a mid to low 13s on the quarter mile. Its performance is at par with the performance of a stock Nissan 370Z.


Actually, this one I would like to give to the 370Z. The ones I've seen on the track have been faster than the GTs on the day. I really do like the Zs. They're fun, little cars on a well engineered platform.



8. Again, you make very suspect comments. A Z06 and a GT500 are on a level or step higher than a Dodge SRT-8. Again, you compare apples to oranges. Perhaps the C6 vette or their 2009 LT1 and LT2 versions, may be on the same level as the Dodge SRT-8. And by the way, the power-to-weight ratio of the Vette (this means the vette is lighter than the Charger) is always going to be better than that of the Charger. Charger weighs about 4,000 pounds while the Vette weighs about 3,100 pounds. So, the weight advantage the vette has, is painfully obvious. Less weight, better acceleration.



All the C6's -- be they 2005-2007 LS2 motored or 2008 and up LS3 motored -- are comfortable 12 second cars, and a step up from the SRT8. They are all faster, and I'm glad you provide the reason for this yourself. The SRT8s are pigs, and they suffer badly for it. They are not insanely fast by any means.

Also, thank you for explaining what power to weight ratio is.




9. A lightly modified 350Z will struggle hard to make it to the high 13s on the quartermile. I know because the engine in my car is the VQ35DE engine, same as that in the early generation 350Zs. This result gets better with 350Zs that have the VQ35HR engines.


I agree. It depends on the MY of the 350Z. I have still seen faster quarters out of late MY, mildly tuned 350Zs on my track, than I have out of the SRT8s.

[Rasmus]

Part 3/3



10. Again, your final comments worry me a great deal. Why would you take Dodge SRT-4 over a Chevy Cobalt SS??? The Dodge SRT-4 is prone to lag because it uses a turbo, and the Chevy SS Cobalt is generally free of lag because it uses a supercharger. In fact, the turbo lag in the SRT-4 is so bad that i was amazed at how good the turbo in the Mazda Speed 3 really is. And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??


First off, it doesn't sound like you know the full story of the Cobalt SS. It came with a roots style Eaton blower first, but when GM's contract with Eaton ran out, they introduced the turbocharged version.

Secondly, on the track most cars launch at an RPM that is in the beginning of the power band with the power adder of choice. This is also where 2-step launch controls and WOT -- or Wide Open Throttle -- shift boxes come into play so as to not lose boost.

As for turbo vs. supercharger, knowing what I know now, having driven multiple forced induction high performance cars, and having built a supercharged car myself, I would go for a turbo -- provided I had a lower end that could cope with the high boost levels. On a street car the power potential of a turbo setup is simply bigger than that of a blower.

Also, I am not quite sure where in my post you see me wanting an SRT4. I want neither Skittle nor Cobalt. In my experience they break down too easily once they get proper fast, eg. 11 second or faster quartermile, and I am honestly not a fan of them from a daily driven performance car point of view. What I did say in my previous comment, was that I would be more worried in the staging lanes, if I were to run against a car that had an SRT4 badge on the on the trunk, than one that said SRT8. And I stand by that comment.

Lastly, I am not sure what you mean by "And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??" I have not made any direct reference to the SRT4's turbo, or the capabilities of the car with a turbo swap.



I personally ran a Dodge SRT-4 prior to modifications in my car and i was surprised at how slow it was in picking speed, and yet it was suspiciously hailed as king of small cars. If I had the modifications I have in my car today, then, it wouldn't even be close. Try running a Chevy Cobalt SS and it will hand you your behind without even a blink. A stock Chevy Cobalt SS will spank a Mustang GT without breaking a sweat. Even a stock Corvette has to work relatively hard to beat a Chevy Cobalt SS, on a bad day.


You seem to think highly of the Cobalts, and I will gladly admit to them having the potential of becoming nasty little buggers once built, but we still see faster Skittles than Cobalts. I cannot say why, but it seems to be the platform of choice for FWD racers that don’t want a Civic. Also, I am glad that you acknowledge there is nothing special about a stock Skittle. That warms my heart.

I have run both stock turbocharged as well as stock supercharged Cobalt SS cars on the track -- several times -- and I'm sorry to report back that none of them handed me my behind with or without blinking. I may have simply encountered bad drivers and slow cars, but they still didn't impress me all that much. That said I did not run faster than a built, black SS that consistently cut 0.1-0.2 second faster quarters than me. That one was faster than me. Curiously enough, it happened to be a turbo Cobalt. I will give credit where credit is due.

I still stand by that any C6 will be capable of running faster than any dealer installed stage 1, 2 or 3 Cobalt SS/Sport. The C6 bone stock is a mid to high 12 second car with even a bad driver.




11. Contrary to your comments, the GT500, the Z-06, and the base Vette LT1 and LT2 versions are all more expensive than the Dodge SRT-8, by at least $10, 000 or more.


I did not comment on the price. I did not state that the SRT8 was the same price. I can only say that when I was looking at the cars mentioned, it didn't matter much to me if it was plus or minus $10k. If you go out to buy a performance car that is faster than your average family econobox GTI-R-whatnot, price is secondary and not a deciding factor. I also acknowledge that this is not the case for all people.



12. The V-8 Camarro is a complete slouch. It has about the same performance numbers as the Ford Mustang GT and the Nissan 370z, eventhough it has a lot more horsepower under the hood. The V-6 Camaro version seems to be a better performer than the V-8 version. Frankly, the V-8 Camarro and the Pontiac G8 GT, are about the worst performing muscle cars GM has ever made because of their unnecessary heavy weight, though they look great in person.


While I certainly can and will agree with you on the new Camaro being slower than anticipated, I would not call it a "complete slouch". The Camaro SS has begun running 12's in the hands of normal people, and they are certainly faster stock for stock than the Mustang GT and the 370Z.

That the new cars are disappointingly heavy is something I myself have stated on these boards several times, but again, I will give credit where credit is due. I may not like the 2010 Camaros styling or heavy platform, but it is still a faster car in a straight line than many, if not all, of its stock competitors.




13. And for the record, I have run with most of these cars and so I am giving you first hand information.


That is perfectly okay, and I fully respect your opinions on the Infinitis and Nissans. Of the American cars mentioned, save for the Cobalt and SRT4, I have had the pleasure of having had a few of them in my possession. This is part of the reason why I am less than impressed with the Charger SRT8. To me it’s a nice road trip vehicle, and not a performance sedan.



14. Finally, how many people do you think can afford a Z06 or a GT500 that can technically outrun a Police Dodge R/T or a Dodge SRT-8 under almost any condition?? Are these cars so common in your area, which i doubt they are, that you speak of them as if they are taxi cabs?? I was asking you for daily drivers that can outrun a Police Dodge Charger R/T, since most cars on the road are daily drivers. I still haven't gotten a convincing response from you.;)

This is not an “under almost any condition”. Please reread my previous post, as it seems you have not understood my point. I do not wish to repeat myself.

The only situation that I know of in which the SHP cars have been outrun, is if they are either travelling in the opposite direction or parked on the median or the side of the Interstate or highway.

To put it frankly, yes, these cars are common in my circle of friends and acquaintances. Again, doubt all you want, it is a natural human response, but I have nothing to gain by appearing dishonest - especially not on this board where I've come to respect the sober tone and people's opinion greatly.

As for convincing you, I honestly don't feel the need to.

To round this off, I would again like to focus on my original statement


[..]the R/Ts are being outrun around here. Not even the SRT8s are that hard to outrun either..

I stand by that. The SHP and local PD Chargers are still being outrun in the situations described, and the SRT8 is still an underpowered pig of a muscle car.

If you think any of the Chargers have "insane acceleration", you have not been in a fast car. If you ever find yourself in the central NC area, I will gladly take you out in my car that, while still several hundred pounds lighter than the Charger SRT8, currently puts down more hp on the rear wheels than the SRT8 is rated at the flywheel. My car is considered slow compared to what else is running around.

[Rasmus]

Appendix
YouTube - Twin Turbo 1000 hp Saleen Video
YouTube - Fastlane Motorsports Twin Turbo 01 Cobra race tune Drew Owens 24psi
YouTube - Fastlane Motorsports - 07 Mustang GT CS KB supercharged - Johhny B
YouTube - Fastlane Motorsports - 98 Mustang Cobra Twin Turbo Ken H. dyno

[G35COUPE]

Part 1/3



You're welcome. I enjoy a discussion as much as anyone. A LEO is a Law Enforcement Officer. English is not my primary or secondary language, so thank you for noticing my terribly fancy words.



First off, this thread was about faster than average police vehicles , and not general performance characteristics of a family 4-door saloon. It seems like I have struck a nerve with you for not being impressed by the R/Ts.

Secondly, the situation described is is not a hypothetical situation. This is the situation here in NC in which people can get away, simply because the LEO from a starting point is at a severe disadvantage.

The point I tried to make to you, was that it doesn't matter if it's a Crown Vic or a Charger R/T. Neither is fast enough to catch the people in fast cars who know radar has been on them when they were going 100mph, and have subsequently decided to run. They are long gone by the time the LEO gets up to speed. The gap is simply too big for the police vehicle in pursuit to catch up. If you fail to consider this, we cannot continue this part of the discussion.

Now as for the psychological aspect of being pursued by the police, yes, most people of course will slow down and pull over. Some, however, will not even see the lights.

Since the main focus of the thread has turned, to make it easier for the mods, I split the second part of my answer into separate posts.

1. How is English not your primary or secondary language?? I am confused. What does NC mean---North Chicago, North Carolina, or what???

2. You did not strike any nerves at all. I particularly don't like Dodge Chargers because they perform poorly, based on my experience, in track-like conditions. I am personally thrilled when i go driving in my twist and turns, which is where the Chargers perform poorly.

3. Why would you seperate the performance of a car from its intended purpose??? Does a Charger R/T being used for family purposes, make it any less of a performance car, if the same R/T is used by the Police???

4. I maintain that the situation is hypothetical to the extent that (1) most people don' t have fast enough cars to outrun a Dodge Charger (2) most people do pull over when they see blue lights.

5. Again I ask you, how many of these fast cars do you think exist on the roads, relative to the general population?? Fewer than you would imagine. And, because they are so few, they are insignificant to be considered in the scenario you layed out. Thus, a reason why I maintain your scenario is hypothetical.

6. How anyone can miss the really bright blue lights behind them, leaves me wondering. I am not saying it does no happen, but, it raises questions about the driver's competence on the highway.

[Rasmus]

1. How is English not your primary or secondary language?? I am confused. What does NC mean---North Chicago, North Carolina, or what??? .

I am a Danish Citizen. I speak Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, English, German, French, some Russian, Flemish, and I try to pick up new languages when I can. I read some Korean, but only enough to get by with the public transportation in Seoul.

NC is North Carolina. As it appears you are American, I thought the meaning of NC was obvious. I do apologize.


2. You did not strike any nerves at all. I particularly don't like Dodge Chargers because they perform poorly, base don myt experience, in track-like ocnditions. I am personally thrilled when i go driving in my twist and turns, which is where the Chargers perform poorly.

I agree, and I am relieved I did not strike a nerve. My experience has taught me personal discussions are best left alone.


3. Why would you seperate the performance of a car from its intended purpose??? Does a Charger R/T being used for family purposes, make it any less of a performance car, if the same R/T is used by the Police???

I fail to see your reasoning. I maintain that the Charger R/T is a poor performing, 4 door family saloon regardless if it’s being used as a pursuit vehicle or a grocery getter. I did not state otherwise.


4. I maintain that the situation is hypotheticla to the extent that (1) most people don' t have fast enough cars to outrun a Dodge Charger (2) Most people do pull over when they see blue lights.

That is your disposition, and I can respect that.

If you fail to see that any car will have a disadvantage when from a standstill trying to catch up with a moving vehicle at relative high speed, then I have failed to prove my point, and the basis for our initial discussion cannot be established.

Also, I gave you concrete examples of how people have eluded capture, but you seem intent on calling it hypothetical. It is, in fact, not a hypothetical proposition, but a recount of events that have transpired. Since I don’t want to repeat myself unnecessarily, I am willing to leave it at this.


5. Again I ask you, how many of these fast cars do you think exist on the roads, relative to the general population?? Fewer than you would imagine. And, because they are so few, they are insignificant to be considered in the scenario you layed out. Thus, a reason why I maintain your scenario is hypothetical.

Please see my previous comment regarding hypothetical propositions. Simply because an event happens with a low mean frequency, does not make it hypothetical. In fact, it makes it anything but hypothetical.

Also, it seems like you avoided, ignored or did not read part of my response. I did, in fact, not state that these cars make out the majority. I stated that people have been outrunning police vehicles. You asked what cars. I gave you the answer.


6. How anyone can miss the really bright blue lights behind them, leaves me wondering. I am not saying it does no happen, but, it raises questions about the driver's competence on the highway.

Again, it seems like you have not read nor understood the situation I have been trying to describe. I do apologize for not being able to make it any clearer. As I’m afraid I cannot find the means to do so, I am willing to leave it at this.

[G35COUPE]

Part 2/3

If we're talking about a plain old stock Charger R/T, I believe it will do an estimated low to mid 14 second quarter mile, and a low 14 only under excellent conditions. With bolt-ons it might just dip into the 13s. That, to me, is horribly slow, and it doesn’t impress me.






Actually, this one I would like to give to the 370Z. The ones I've seen on the track have been faster than the GTs on the day. I really do like the Zs. They're fun, little cars on a well engineered platform.




All the C6's -- be they 2005-2007 LS2 motored or 2008 and up LS3 motored -- are comfortable 12 second cars, and a step up from the SRT8. They are all faster, and I'm glad you provide the reason for this yourself. The SRT8s are pigs, and they suffer badly for it. They are not insanely fast by any means.

Also, thank you for explaining what power to weight ratio is.




I agree. It depends on the MY of the 350Z. I have still seen faster quarters out of late MY, mildly tuned 350Zs on my track, than I have out of the SRT8s.

1. Your comments clearly show that you are mixing up track racing with drag racing. You mention 13s and 14s, which are drag race numbers, and then you suggest that the cars posted, will dust the Dodge R/T. Again, your drag numbers are suspect. And be specific about whether you are discussing track performance versus drag perofrmance. I beleive cop chases are more in line with drag performance as they generally occur in straight lines than they do in windy/twisty conditions as on a track. So, the list you provided lends no credibility to your argument. I, on the other hand, have run a Charger R/T on drag and on track, and the results are entirely differrent. Search for one of my write ups i did on this on one of the threads.

2. Sorry if you considered my tone disrespectful. I meant exactly what I said, and I stand by them. Wasn't meant to be disrespectful.

3. Thanks for clarifying the "Mexico" phrase. I have never heard of it before in any online auto forum. May be that is what other online auto forums call "street racing". Perhaps, using terms that we all understand could be helpful. If I haven't heard these terms befor, then am i living under a rock or what?

4. You misunderstood the heirachy I presented. Go back and read my comments again. I said that the Z06 and Ford GT 500, are faster than the GTO and SRT-8, which in turn are faster than the Charger R/T. My intent was not to lump the R/T and SRT-8 into one category, even if it appears that way to you. I didn't even refer to engine displacement as a significant factor. I just simply threw it in there.

5. Our discussion was originally based on street cars that can outrun the SHP. Unfortunately, you were the one that brought up the issue of exotic cars, which IMHO, does not fit into this argument. I have repeatedly asked you to provide me the name of the regular street car that can outrun a Dodge Charger R/T and you have not been able to do so, without bringing up one exotic car after another, as an example. So, those vidoes are baseless as a matter of the discussion we are having. I personally don't care about having 100,000 horsepower in a car, if that horsepower cannot be converted into a real track racing win. Again, you continue to confuse drag racing with track racing. They are different disciplines of the racing world. Drag racing requires lots of torque and even horsepower. Track racing would require much less of that.

5. I have been on a pseudo track for so long as to realize that the best track cars are the ones that can come N/A or a detuned forced induction application car with the right sets of suspension and handling components. Thats why I am mostly an NA guy. And most street cars are NA, and most cars cops deal with, are NA.

6. Again, your comments are highly doubtful. On a dragstrip, all you mostly need is torque, on the low end, and on a race track, all you want is top end horsepower. An S2000, while lighter than a Dodge Charger, has little or no torque for its size. All it has giong for it, is its high revving engine to get the top end horsepower it needs to stay competitive. It is essentially a track car and not a drag car. Again, you continue to mix up drag racing with track racing. The Dodge Charger R/T has more than aenough torque to soundly defeat a 350z or an S2000, which both are track cars, unlike the Charger R/T, which is a drag car. Police need drag cars and not track cars since their chases are mostly straightline than they are chases on twisty and windy roads.

7. My car is a G-35 Coupe and it also has Variable Valve timing and yet it produces a very decent amount of torque in the low to mid range. The VQ35 DE engoine is known for this. But somehow, this torque ability got missing in the S2000 engine, which is its achilles hill. So, i am not sure why you brought this into the discussion. It does not lend credibility to your argument, you know. What the heck does MEP have to with anything we are discussing?? By the way, Toyota had to recall tons of their engines that had oil sludge issues. So, Toyota engines so far, has not had the best credibility.

8. The SRT-8 and R/Ts are drag cars. All they need is plenty of torque, and they have tons of it, which allows them to catapult their massive weights on a straight line fairly easily. They both have at least 300 - 360 ft-pounds of torque which makes the S2000 and 350 Z torque levels, seem like child's play. Once again, the R/T and SRT-8 are basically drag cars and not track cars. Their handling is certianly not up to par on a track as the S2000 or 350Z. I know because I have tried them.

9. Again, you claim about the Z running neck to neck with an SRT-8 remains questionable. Don't forget that the magazines track relatively new cars, which incidentally, produce worse performance numbers than a car that has been broken in, with time. So, you can't necessarily go by those numbers. the same issue can be identified with mpg as well. A broken in car will provide better mpg than when it was new.

:)

[G35COUPE]

Part 3/3



First off, it doesn't sound like you know the full story of the Cobalt SS. It came with a roots style Eaton blower first, but when GM's contract with Eaton ran out, they introduced the turbocharged version.

Secondly, on the track most cars launch at an RPM that is in the beginning of the power band with the power adder of choice. This is also where 2-step launch controls and WOT -- or Wide Open Throttle -- shift boxes come into play so as to not lose boost.

As for turbo vs. supercharger, knowing what I know now, having driven multiple forced induction high performance cars, and having built a supercharged car myself, I would go for a turbo -- provided I had a lower end that could cope with the high boost levels. On a street car the power potential of a turbo setup is simply bigger than that of a blower.

Also, I am not quite sure where in my post you see me wanting an SRT4. I want neither Skittle nor Cobalt. In my experience they break down too easily once they get proper fast, eg. 11 second or faster quartermile, and I am honestly not a fan of them from a daily driven performance car point of view. What I did say in my previous comment, was that I would be more worried in the staging lanes, if I were to run against a car that had an SRT4 badge on the on the trunk, than one that said SRT8. And I stand by that comment.

Lastly, I am not sure what you mean by "And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??" I have not made any direct reference to the SRT4's turbo, or the capabilities of the car with a turbo swap.



You seem to think highly of the Cobalts, and I will gladly admit to them having the potential of becoming nasty little buggers once built, but we still see faster Skittles than Cobalts. I cannot say why, but it seems to be the platform of choice for FWD racers that don’t want a Civic. Also, I am glad that you acknowledge there is nothing special about a stock Skittle. That warms my heart.

I have run both stock turbocharged as well as stock supercharged Cobalt SS cars on the track -- several times -- and I'm sorry to report back that none of them handed me my behind with or without blinking. I may have simply encountered bad drivers and slow cars, but they still didn't impress me all that much. That said I did not run faster than a built, black SS that consistently cut 0.1-0.2 second faster quarters than me. That one was faster than me. Curiously enough, it happened to be a turbo Cobalt. I will give credit where credit is due.

I still stand by that any C6 will be capable of running faster than any dealer installed stage 1, 2 or 3 Cobalt SS/Sport. The C6 bone stock is a mid to high 12 second car with even a bad driver.




I did not comment on the price. I did not state that the SRT8 was the same price. I can only say that when I was looking at the cars mentioned, it didn't matter much to me if it was plus or minus $10k. If you go out to buy a performance car that is faster than your average family econobox GTI-R-whatnot, price is secondary and not a deciding factor. I also acknowledge that this is not the case for all people.



While I certainly can and will agree with you on the new Camaro being slower than anticipated, I would not call it a "complete slouch". The Camaro SS has begun running 12's in the hands of normal people, and they are certainly faster stock for stock than the Mustang GT and the 370Z.

That the new cars are disappointingly heavy is something I myself have stated on these boards several times, but again, I will give credit where credit is due. I may not like the 2010 Camaros styling or heavy platform, but it is still a faster car in a straight line than many, if not all, of its stock competitors.




That is perfectly okay, and I fully respect your opinions on the Infinitis and Nissans. Of the American cars mentioned, save for the Cobalt and SRT4, I have had the pleasure of having had a few of them in my possession. This is part of the reason why I am less than impressed with the Charger SRT8. To me it’s a nice road trip vehicle, and not a performance sedan.



This is not an “under almost any condition”. Please reread my previous post, as it seems you have not understood my point. I do not wish to repeat myself.

The only situation that I know of in which the SHP cars have been outrun, is if they are either travelling in the opposite direction or parked on the median or the side of the Interstate or highway.

To put it frankly, yes, these cars are common in my circle of friends and acquaintances. Again, doubt all you want, it is a natural human response, but I have nothing to gain by appearing dishonest - especially not on this board where I've come to respect the sober tone and people's opinion greatly.

As for convincing you, I honestly don't feel the need to.

To round this off, I would again like to focus on my original statement



I stand by that. The SHP and local PD Chargers are still being outrun in the situations described, and the SRT8 is still an underpowered pig of a muscle car.

If you think any of the Chargers have "insane acceleration", you have not been in a fast car. If you ever find yourself in the central NC area, I will gladly take you out in my car that, while still several hundred pounds lighter than the Charger SRT8, currently puts down more hp on the rear wheels than the SRT8 is rated at the flywheel. My car is considered slow compared to what else is running around.


1. I am not going to belabor this post. I did not intend to go into the history of any car. I am not a historian. However, I am not convinced that the R/T is outperformed by daily drivers on our streets, which barely produce 200 horsepower. While the circle of friends you have, may have expensive and exotic cars, people on that level don't usually run from the law, when they can fight the ticket that comes from the law, fairly easily in court, since they have the means to do so. Why go to jail by running and then lose out on driving your nice car?? Those who run are few and far between, and so small to be considered an real threat to the performance of a Charger R/T. And that my argument. The cars you listed are not owned by many, even if you beleive so.

[Rasmus]

1. Your comments clearly show that you are mixing up track racing with drag racing. You mention 13s and 14s, which are drag race numbers, and then you suggest that the cars posted, will dust the Dodge R/T. Again, your drag numbers are suspect. And be specific about whether you are discussing track performance versus drag perofrmance. I beleive cop chases are more in line with drag performance as they generally occur in straight lines than they do in windy/twisty conditions as on a track. So, the list you provided lends no credibility to your argument. I, on the other hand, have run a Charger R/T on drag and on track, and the results are entirely differrent. Search for one of my write ups i did on this on one of the threads.

I thought it painfully obvious that my numbers were all about quarter mile performance, as that is what had the most relevance in the initial discussion.

I am also more than willing to accept that we have various definitions of the term “track”. Around here we only have drag strips, hence the term is only used for that. Had we had circuit tracks, I would have differentiated.

Apart from that I obviously do agree. Police pursuits are more about straight line acceleration than corner carving capabilities.



2. Sorry if you considered my tone disrespectful. I meant exactly what I said, and I stand by them. Wasn't meant to be disrespectful.


I accept, and thank you.



3. Thanks for clarifying the "Mexico" phrase. I have never heard of it before in any online auto forum. May be that is what other online auto forums call "street racing". Perhaps, using terms that we all understand could be helpful. If I haven't heard these terms befor, then am i living under a rock or what?


Mexico racing is more than simple street racing. The crowds are different. The cars are different.

Terms are to be explained and understood. I am sure you know some that I haven’t heard of.

Your living quarters I do not care about.



4. You misunderstood the heirachy I presented. Go back and read my comments again. I said that the Z06 and Ford GT 500, are faster than the GTO and SRT-8, which in turn are faster than the Charger R/T. My intent was not to lump the R/T and SRT-8 into one category, even if it appears that way to you. I didn't even refer to engine displacement as a significant factor. I just simply threw it in there.


I do not believe I misunderstood you, but I might be mistaken. Let me elaborate. By ‘hierarchy’ I meant performance wise with regards to track, ie. drag strip, performance, in which case – given the cars presented, ie. Z06, Mustang GT500, and GTO – the Chargers fall to the bottom.





5. Our discussion was originally based on street cars that can outrun the SHP. Unfortunately, you were the one that brought up the issue of exotic cars, which IMHO, does not fit into this argument. I have repeatedly asked you to provide me the name of the regular street car that can outrun a Dodge Charger R/T and you have not been able to do so, without bringing up one exotic car after another, as an example. So, those vidoes are baseless as a matter of the discussion we are having. I personally don't care about having 100,000 horsepower in a car, if that horsepower cannot be converted into a real track racing win. Again, you continue to confuse drag racing with track racing. They are different disciplines of the racing world. Drag racing requires lots of torque and even horsepower. Track racing would require much less of that.


Our definition of exotic is what divides us. I do not view a Z06 as an exotic. I do not view a Mustang GT500 as an exotic either. These are common daily drivers in my world.

My preposition for joining this initial debate was to draw attention to the real life situations an SHP Charger R/T has to deal with, in which case it doesn’t matter where the offending vehicle is from, where it’s built, how it’s running or if it’s modified or not. The SHP has to deal with these cars, since this is what they’re up against here.

If you are intent on limiting the cars capable of outrunning the SHP to stock production cars, then you are not dealing with the reality of the situation. Of course, it is up to you, but I cannot add to that discussion other than what I already have, so I am willing to leave it at that.

I say again, the SHP Charger R/Ts are being outrun here, and I have given everybody here good examples of the types of vehicles that are and have been outrunning them.




5. I have been on a pseudo track for so long as to realize that the best track cars are the ones that can come N/A or a detuned forced induction application car with the right sets of suspension and handling components. Thats why I am mostly an NA guy. And most street cars are NA, and most cars cops deal with, are NA.


That is good, and I, having spent most of my childhood on European circuits, would most of the time choose an NA car for this purpose.

Turbo cars do have their merits, eg. Formula 1 seasons ‘77/’78 through ‘88 where turbo cars dominated the naturally aspirated cars.



6. Again, your comments are highly doubtful. On a dragstrip, all you mostly need is torque, on the low end, and on a race track, all you want is top end horsepower. An S2000, while lighter than a Dodge Charger, has little or no torque for its size. All it has giong for it, is its high revving engine to get the top end horsepower it needs to stay competitive. It is essentially a track car and not a drag car. Again, you continue to mix up drag racing with track racing. The Dodge Charger R/T has more than aenough torque to soundly defeat a 350z or an S2000, which both are track cars, unlike the Charger R/T, which is a drag car. Police need drag cars and not track cars since their chases are mostly straightline than they are chases on twisty and windy roads.


Because this discussion initially was about cars capable of outrunning police vehicles, of course straight line performance is vital. As such, the performance numbers in my previous posts should be on performance on a drag strip.

You are, of course, free to believe that an R/T is a fast car on the track, ie. drag strip. I will continue to recount the track, ie. drag strip, runs against Charger and Challenger R/Ts, and of the Nissan 350Z and 370Zs. Please refer to my previous post. My numbers are based on my experience from the track, ie. drag strip.



7. My car is a G-35 Coupe and it also has Variable Valve timing and yet it produces a very decent amount of torque in the low to mid range. The VQ35 DE engoine is known for this. But somehow, this torque ability got missing in the S2000 engine, which is its achilles hill. So, i am not sure why you brought this into the discussion. It does not lend credibility to your argument, you know. What the heck does MEP have to with anything we are discussing?? By the way, Toyota had to recall tons of their engines that had oil sludge issues. So, Toyota engines so far, has not had the best credibility.


I do believe the low torque of a Honda VTEC motor was brought into this discussion by you.

As a means of explaining to you that torque is not everything, I offered the typical example of a Formula 1 engine. In this case Toyota’s engine for the 2006 season.

However, since this is only part of the discussion on a peripheral level, I will leave it at that.



8. The SRT-8 and R/Ts are drag cars. All they need is plenty of torque, and they have tons of it, which allows them to catapult their massive weights on a straight line fairly easily. They both have at least 300 - 360 ft-pounds of torque which makes the S2000 and 350 Z torque levels, seem like child's play. Once again, the R/T and SRT-8 are basically drag cars and not track cars. Their handling is certianly not up to par on a track as the S2000 or 350Z. I know because I have tried them.


Again, our definition of a drag car differs, and I am willing to leave it at that. The Chargers are not drag cars in my book. They are family cars. With regards to torqur they do not, by my definition, have “tons of it”. Again, our definitions differ, and I accept that.

Also, they have horrible circuit track skills, but it seems we agree on that one.



9. Again, you claim about the Z running neck to neck with an SRT-8 remains questionable. Don't forget that the magazines track relatively new cars, which incidentally, produce worse performance numbers than a car that has been broken in, with time. So, you can't necessarily go by those numbers. the same issue can be identified with mpg as well. A broken in car will provide better mpg than when it was new.


My numbers, again, are not merely based on paper racing. If you recall, I am an opponent of paper racing. I have my experience from the track – drag strip, not circuit track -- which is what I use to base my opinions on.

As for the specific example of late MY 350Z vs. SRT8; I used to have a TorRed Charger SRT8 in possession if only briefly. I also took this car to the track, ie. drag strip, on a couple of occasions, and I ran it against different street cars. I have not owned a 350Z, however I have driven a friend's late MY 350Z on the track, ie. drag strip. The Z was and still is faster on a track, ie. track in general be that circuit or drag.

From the best of my knowledge, and from my relatively considerable experience from straight line drag racing, the numbers I have provided on the Chargers are correct. You are, of course, free to question them. That is your prerogative.

[Rasmus]

1. I am not going to belabor this post. I did not intend to go into the history of any car. I am not a historian. However, I am not convinced that the R/T is outperformed by daily drivers on our streets, which barely produce 200 horsepower. While the circle of friends you have, may have expensive and exotic cars, people on that level don't usually run from the law, when they can fight the ticket that comes from the law, fairly easily in court, since they have the means to do so. Why go to jail by running and then lose out on driving your nice car?? Those who run are few and far between, and so small to be considered an real threat to the performance of a Charger R/T. And that my argument. The cars you listed are not owned by many, even if you beleive so.

I would again like to point out, that it doesn't matter if it's a Charger R/T, SRT8 or SRT10. It's all in the initial gap that the LEO in pursuit has to make up, in which case you don't need a, by your definition, exotic car.

Your view on why to run is one we share. I do not believe it worth the effort, and I while I have in the past when I was young and reckless in Europe, I would not run again. Neither would my friends. Others would.

No, it is true, not that many people have fast cars like the ones I posted, but many of my friends do. I do not believe I stated anything but that. I have been in a most fortunate situation that allowed me to pursue my interest in cars on a level most can't. I am not hiding that fact, although I seldom wish to talk about it. You asked me if the cars I described were common. In my everyday life, yes, they are.

If you will allow me to do so, I will leave this discussion about police pursuit vehicles and fast cars, and strike it down as a difference in perspective.

[NSXType-R]

Can't say for the NIssan. but having driven one there is NO way a Prius coudl ever be used for pursuit.
Skinny tyres, weight in all the wrong places ?
It woudl be troubled trying to d a PIT maneouver on a granny on a buggy :)

Nah, there's no way the Nissan can be a pursuit car. It just has the V6.


when i drive 95 thru NC, i use my V1 and catch nothing. the roads are sooo horrible doing 150 is incredibly dangerous on those bumpy roads.

prius is only used by traffic enforcemnt agents, not NYPD cops

And I think traffic enforcement is under the NYPD, although yeah, they don't use Priuses for everyday police use, only traffic.

Here's a NY Times article that I found amusing- the officers are finding the hybrid cars' seats are too small. :D

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/nyregion/30hybrid.html?ref=nyregion

[G35COUPE]

I would again like to point out, that it doesn't matter if it's a Charger R/T, SRT8 or SRT10. It's all in the initial gap that the LEO in pursuit has to make up, in which case you don't need a, by your definition, exotic car.

Your view on why to run is one we share. I do not believe it worth the effort, and I while I have in the past when I was young and reckless in Europe, I would not run again. Neither would my friends. Others would.

No, it is true, not that many people have fast cars like the ones I posted, but many of my friends do. I do not believe I stated anything but that. I have been in a most fortunate situation that allowed me to pursue my interest in cars on a level most can't. I am not hiding that fact, although I seldom wish to talk about it. You asked me if the cars I described were common. In my everyday life, yes, they are.

If you will allow me to do so, I will leave this discussion about police pursuit vehicles and fast cars, and strike it down as a difference in perspective.

1. Unfortunately, the vast majority of cars on US highways, are not performance cars that can really outrun a Dodge Charger R/T. However, in the last 10 years, more better performing stree cars than the typical Police Crown Victoria's can be found on our roads. So, it was only logical for them to upgrade their cars to cheap and affordable power vehicle. And, unfortunately, the circle of friends you have that own exotic cars, are not a reflection of the general population in the USA. And, this is a fact.

As a poor man that i am, i think I am in a better position to know what is out there in terms of what other poor people drive on a daily basis, than you may realize, don't you think?

2. I agree completely with you and I see why our discussion got lengthened---our definition of exotic cars are different. I can't afford a Z06---too much money and expense to maintain. More than 50% of the US population cannot aford one. So, to that end, its an exotic car in our eyes.

[Rasmus]

1. Unfortunately, the vast majority of cars on US highways, are not performance cars that can really outrun a Dodge Charger R/T. However, in the last 10 years, more better performing stree cars than the typical Police Crown Victoria's can be found on our roads. So, it was only logical for them to upgrade their cars to cheap and affordable power vehicle. And, unfortunately, the circle of friends you have that own exotic cars, are not a reflection of the general population in the USA. And, this is a fact. So, why even engage in this discussion since those around you are not the norm on the roads??????????? :confused:

As a poor man that i am, i think I am in a better position to know what is out there in terms of what other poor people drive on a daily basis, than you do, don't you think?

Again, I do not disagree with you. The Crown Vics are horrible tanks according to the Officers I know on a personal basis. They welcome the new Chargers as being durable, more comfortable, and more spacious. They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. The R/Ts have bette performance relative to the SEs, but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders. Clearly the Charger has other merits than its -- all things considered -- lackluster performance that makes it a worth wile investment for the PDs.

The reason for joining in on the conversation was to offer an insight in what real life situations the LEOs are being put in when it comes to high speed pursuits, of which I have some 2nd party experience. Obviously only a few number of total cars out there are capable of up to 180mph speeds, but the ratio of fast cars to normal cars that are making successful getaways are clearly higher than the ratio of fast to normal on the street.

If any given police department in any given country is taking new, faster performance cars in use, eg. the Lexus IS-F in Hull or the Z06 here in Wake County, the opposition must be evaluated. With regards to this area, I have given you just that. This is what the LEOs are up against. This is why the Charger R/Ts are losing out. This is why Wake PD chose to put an undercover Z06 into active duty.

Also, the actual getaways I used as examples were done by built Terminator Cobras, the turn key cost of which for each current owner being below $30k.

As for your final statement, I clearly resent that. Your proposition is ludicrous, and I find it utterly ignorant. You are, of course, entitled to your prepositions, faulty as they may be.

[G35COUPE]

Again, I do not disagree with you. The Crown Vics are horrible tanks according to the Officers I know on a personal basis. They welcome the new Chargers as being durable, more comfortable, and more spacious. They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. The R/Ts have bette performance relative to the SEs, but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders. Clearly the Charger has other merits than its -- all things considered -- lackluster performance that makes it a worth wile investment for the PDs.

The reason for joining in on the conversation was to offer an insight in what real life situations the LEOs are being put in when it comes to high speed pursuits, of which I have some 2nd party experience. Obviously only a few number of total cars out there are capable of up to 180mph speeds, but the ratio of fast cars to normal cars that are making successful getaways are clearly higher than the ratio of fast to normal on the street.

If any given police department in any given country is taking new, faster performance cars in use, eg. the Lexus IS-F in Hull or the Z06 here in Wake County, the opposition must be evaluated. With regards to this area, I have given you just that. This is what the LEOs are up against. This is why the Charger R/Ts are losing out. This is why Wake PD chose to put an undercover Z06 into active duty.

Also, the actual getaways I used as examples were done by built Terminator Cobras, the turn key cost of which for each current owner being below $30k.

As for your final statement, I clearly resent that. Your proposition is ludicrous, and I find it utterly ignorant. You are, of course, entitled to your prepositions, faulty as they may be.

1. I find your comment, "They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. .......... but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders", very spurious. I don't know why any officer would reveal such a position or detail to anyone, about their tribulations with speedsters. Is the PD suggesting that they are loosing the battle on the highways or that if you have a fast enough car, then you are home free from being pulled over if caught speeding, and thus, never having to worry about being served a citation???:confused:

Secondly,

2. Once again, I meant exactly what i said, however ignorant as you might find it. It takes a poor man to know the plight of another poor man. I doubt Bill Gates understands or cares to understand the needs of a vagabond who may sleep underneath a cardboard box every night. The fact here is that the rich, which you have suggested to us, are not in a position to know what ails or propels the masses. This is not their fault at all. We are all victims of our immediate and past environment. If you know of any rich person who understands the plight of a poor man, then, tell me. Remember, you have not yet produced a single daily driver that is affordable by the masses which can smoke the Dodge R/T or escape cops with ease. S2000 and 350z wil not run too far from a cop with a Dodge Charger R/T even if the 350Z is moving and the Charger pursues it from a stand still.:)

3. You continue to present these exotic cars as the norm on the highways. They are not. Anyone capable of installing an after-market turbo or supercharger on an already powerful engine as a 350z, isn't the common man. They are rich and their upgraded car is technically an exotic car. This is my opinion.

[cmcpokey]

3. You continue to present these exotic cars as the norm on the highways. They are not. Anyone capable of installing an after-market turbo or supercharger on an already powerful engine as a 350z, isn't the common man. They are rich and their upgraded car is technically an exotic car. This is my opinion.

and this is where you fail. with 10 grand you can build a very fast mustang or camaro that can outrun a cop car. hell even the ricer civics can do 140+. the guys that have cars like this are the ones that will be driving excess speeds, and also these are the same guys that will run... grandmothers in their lincoln are not who the cops are worried about.

[Rasmus]

1. I find your comment, "They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. .......... but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders", very spurious. I don't know why any officer would reveal such a position or detail to anyone, about their tribulations with speedsters. Is the PD suggesting that they are loosing the battle on the highways or that if you have a fast enough car, then you are home free from being pulled over if caught speeding, and thus, never having to worry about being served a citation???:confused:


Yes, they are saying they are not able to keep up with some cars, hence the need for the Z06 that are now being used. I count some LEOs as friends, and I associate with them on a private basis.




Secondly,

2. Once again, I meant exactly what i said, however ignorant as you might find it. It takes a poor man to know the plight of another poor man. I doubt Bill Gates understands or cares to understand the needs of a vagabond who may sleep underneath a cardboard box every night. The fact here is that the rich, which you have suggested to us, are not in a position to know what ails or propels the masses. This is not their fault at all. We are all victims of our immediate and past environment. If you know of any rich person who understands the plight of a poor man, then, tell me.



I do not like to address my own circumstances, but I would let you know that I come from a poor yet loving family. I have paid my dues, and I have become successful where others have not. I have given more than I have received, and I will continue to do so till the day they lay me to rest in the same ground that the hobo lies in.

Your feeble attempts at lecturing, and general grasp of the world that you display is naïve at best. You bear the mark of inexperience, and I am not seeking to offend you.



Remember, you have not yet produced a single daily driver that is affordable by the masses which can smoke the Dodge R/T or escape cops with ease. S2000 and 350z wil not run too far from a cop with a Dodge Charger R/T even if the 350Z is moving and the Charger pursues it from a stand still.:)


As you have ignored my previous posts, I will refer you back to them. I see no point in repeating myself.



3. You continue to present these exotic cars as the norm on the highways. They are not. Anyone capable of installing an after-market turbo or supercharger on an already powerful engine as a 350z, isn't the common man. They are rich and their upgraded car is technically an exotic car. This is my opinion.

I present them not as the norm. I present them as examples. Another example of you continuously ignoring the response while repeatedly focusing on your message.

Thank you for not considering me a common man, although that is what I am. If you wish to think of my supercharged Mustang GT as exotic, then that is your choice.

--

With this I will leave this discussion. Arguing on the internet is seldom fruitful, and I see no point in continuing under these circumstances.

Have a good day, Sir.

[cmcpokey]

well stated ras.

[G35COUPE]

and this is where you fail. with 10 grand you can build a very fast mustang or camaro that can outrun a cop car. hell even the ricer civics can do 140+. the guys that have cars like this are the ones that will be driving excess speeds, and also these are the same guys that will run... grandmothers in their lincoln are not who the cops are worried about.

Fail???? How?????:confused:

I was talking about everyday commuter cars that are as affordable as a Dodge Charger R/T. I beleive you can get one, if you look hard enough, for about $23,000 - $24,000.

Build a fast mustang and/or camarro for $10,000 ( I don't know what 10 grand means)??? What in the world are you talking about? How many commuters have $10,000 to put in a car for the purpose of trying to outrun a cop car?? I would generally consider anyone who does something like this, very suspect :confused:

[G35COUPE]

Yes, they are saying they are not able to keep up with some cars, hence the need for the Z06 that are now being used. I count some LEOs as friends, and I associate with them on a private basis.




I do not like to address my own circumstances, but I would let you know that I come from a poor yet loving family. I have paid my dues, and I have become successful where others have not. I have given more than I have received, and I will continue to do so till the day they lay me to rest in the same ground that the hobo lies in.

Your feeble attempts at lecturing, and general grasp of the world that you display is naïve at best. You bear the mark of inexperience, and I am not seeking to offend you.



As you have ignored my previous posts, I will refer you back to them. I see no point in repeating myself.



I present them not as the norm. I present them as examples. Another example of you continuously ignoring the response while repeatedly focusing on your message.

Thank you for not considering me a common man, although that is what I am. If you wish to think of my supercharged Mustang GT as exotic, then that is your choice.

--

With this I will leave this discussion. Arguing on the internet is seldom fruitful, and I see no point in continuing under these circumstances.

Have a good day, Sir.


You take offense too quickly. Maybe growing a tough skin would be helpful here. Nothing I have said was meant to hurt anyone. If there is anything I said that is untrue, then tell me. I am all ears.

I am yet to see a cop driving a Z06 as you have proclaimed. If such a Z06 exists, then it is in the minority, and it is probably a Z06 seized from drug dealers or for some federal offense. As you well know, when the feds seize certain property under certain offense in a locality, the cops in that locality sometimes get to keep some or all of the seized property, if the local cops were involved with the operation.

I cannot verify if you have given more than your fair share to those around you or not, or if you are poor or not. As far as I am concerned, anyone who is able to afford over $4,000 in forced induction systems for a car, and of which all cars depreciate in value, is simply a rich person, because why throw the extra money on a material that depreciates. Why did you not give the money for the forced induction system to charity, since you claim you have given so much to others?? I am confused here. :confused:

In my inexperience (perhaps i am a 12 year old owner of a G-35 Coupe), which i humbly admit, i ask relevant questions, and i get no tangible or convincing response from you. My questions have not been adequately answered. Why???????????:confused:

I have a hard time considering you an ordinary man, especially with what you do with the money you have---buying expensive forced induction systems with money that can be used to feed and aid the poor and lame that live among us. I am even more confused now.:confused:

Since you give so much, can you send me $300 so that i can buy 4 new fuel injectors for my Nissan B13??? It is my little hot rod and it has been sputtering for the last 3 days. It needs the tender love and care that lots of money can provide. As a poor man, i have to choose between buying new tires for my G-35 Coupe and buying fuel injectors for my B13. Can you help a brother out?? :D

[cmcpokey]

Fail???? How?????:confused:

I was talking about everyday commuter cars that are as affordable as a Dodge Charger R/T. Build a fast mustang and/or camarro for $10,000 ( I don't know what 10 grand means)??? What the hell are you talking about? How many commuters have $10,000 to put in a car for the purpose of trying to outrun a cop car?? I would generally consider anyone who does something like this, very suspect :confused:

how much do you have into your car? you said you have a 2007 6MT, so that means at least 33k for purchase, then with the mods you have, about another 2k? so thats 35 grand, excuse me $35,000.00.. and you are saying people dont have 10 grand? what are you on? why do you keep arguing?

and im not talking about commuters. i am talking about people like you who have fast cars, and are willing to risk their, and others lives by trying to out run the cops. people that are reasonable will pull over and take the slap on the knuckles, but thats not the half a percent these pursuit vehicles are procured for.

for being a supposed tuner, you really know nothing about the tuning world.

[cmcpokey]

You take offense too quickly. Maybe growing a tough skin would be helpful here.

I am yet to see a cop driving a Z06 as you have proclaimed. If such a Z06 exists, then it is in the minority, and it is probably a Z06 seized from drug dealers or for some federal offense. As you well know, when the feds seize certain property under certain offense in a locality, the cops in that locality sometimes get to keep some or all of the seized property, if the local cops were involved with the operation.

I cannot verify if you have given more than your fair share to those around you or not, or if you are poor or not. As far as I am concerned, anyone who is able to afford over $4,000 in forced induction systems for a car, and of which all cars depreciate in value, is simply a rich person, because why throw the extra money on a material that depreciates. Why did you not give the money for the forced induction system to charity, since you claim you have given so much to others?? I am confused here. :confused:

In my inexperience (perhaps i am a 12 year old owner of a G-35 Coupe), which i humbly admit, i ask relevant questions, and i get no tangible or convincing response from you. My questions have not been adequately answered. Why???????????:confused:

I have a hard time considering you an ordinary man, especially with what you do with the money you have---buying expensive forced induction systems with money that can be used to feed and aid the poor and lame that live among us. I am even more confused now.:confused:

Since you give so much, can you send me $300 so that i can buy 4 new fuel injectors for my Nissan B13??? It is my little hot rod and it has been sputtering for the last 3 days. It needs the tender love and care that lots of money can provide. :D
alright, you are starting to frustrate me. first off read this thread: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/multimedia/39877-whats-wrong-picture.html

second, for someone that has money invested in aftermarket on his car, i would think you would understand putting money in your car. especially when your car stock costs more than his with all of his mods.

actually. i am betting you have none of these cars you claim to have. please, so i can take you out of the poseur category, conduct an egg-nog test (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/users-rides/2584-official-ucp-ownership-challenge.html) on your G35. then read everything that rasmus posted in his earlier posts, and then come back and act like a big boy.

[G35COUPE]

how much do you have into your car? you said you have a 2007 6MT, so that means at least 33k for purchase, then with the mods you have, about another 2k? so thats 35 grand, excuse me $35,000.00.. and you are saying people dont have 10 grand? what are you on? why do you keep arguing?

and im not talking about commuters. i am talking about people like you who have fast cars, and are willing to risk their, and others lives by trying to out run the cops. people that are reasonable will pull over and take the slap on the knuckles, but thats not the half a percent these pursuit vehicles are procured for.

for being a supposed tuner, you really know nothing about the tuning world.

I have never run from a cop before and i have no reason to do so. I am not sure why you suggest that people like me try to outrun cops. I wonder where you got that from.:confused:

How do you know i know nothing about the tuning world?? Do you know that I was born with an adjustable wrench on my right hand, and spark plugs on my left hand??? I can change tires with my left foot alone.

Well, I got on my knees, prayed hard, and one day, my Fairytal Godmother appeared in my room, handed me the key to my car, and asked me to go to any infiniti dealership to pick up a car of my choice. I had to clean my ears and eyes three times, in disbeleif, when all of this was ocurring. Thank you Fairytale Godmother. You are too sweet ;)

[cmcpokey]

this thread got too far off topic. did some house cleaning. now everyone can be back on good behavior.

[Lukeno52]

Surely a IS-F cop car will outrun the aforementioned Chargers? The IS-F has similar power to a SRT-8, but weighs less, is more aerodynamic and has a better 'box.

[uknown]

getting back to the original point of the thread

im really impressed the LEXUS IS-F will be used by the police force !

i really hope the local police here in Dubai use this car...with the mercedes E-class and BMW 5-series they already have hahaha

and really the IS-F does look gorgeous in that pic

[f6fhellcat13]

getting back to the original point of the thread

im really impressed the LEXUS IS-F will be used by the police force !

i really hope the local police here in Dubai use this car...with the mercedes E-class and BMW 5-series they already have hahaha

and really the IS-F does look gorgeous in that pic
Which engines do the E-Klasses and 5s have?

[G35COUPE]

Surely a IS-F cop car will outrun the aforementioned Chargers? The IS-F has similar power to a SRT-8, but weighs less, is more aerodynamic and has a better 'box.

This is true. However, budget, long and short run maintenance costs, etc, are also factors to be considered by any police force when buying these cars. My thoughts are that the SRT-8 would be cheaper all around. I am not certain about this. Just a thought.:)

[cargirl1990]

This is true. However, budget, long and short run maintenance costs, etc, are also factors to be considered by any police force when buying these cars. My thoughts are that the SRT-8 would be cheaper all around. I am not certain about this. Just a thought.:)




its cheap because it has tupper ware interiors, and it ain't the original. and becuase its a Chrylser

[wwgkd]

its cheap because it has tupper ware interiors, and it ain't the original. and becuase its a Chrylser

The police models have highly modified interiors. For a cop car, tupperware interior is actually pretty desireable, that way you can hose it out after some guy spits/pees/pukes or worse all over the place.

[cargirl1990]

The police models have highly modified interiors. For a cop car, tupperware interior is actually pretty desireable, that way you can hose it out after some guy spits/pees/pukes or worse all over the place.

yeah i guess. but is it good for people who don't have a profession in police work? no.

[wwgkd]

yeah i guess. but is it good for people who don't have a profession in police work? no.

Well, my dream jeep would have a bedlinered interior. Of course that's more for mud, but it does come in usefull since I'm quite often the designated driver and drunk people don't do so well in bouncy vehicles for some reason.

[uknown]

replying to f6fhellcat13

im not really sure of the engine models but i think the 5 series is a 530i since the model badges are stripped off....

they also have got GMC Tahoe, Toyota Fortuner and also Nissan Pathfinder just in case the pursuit goes off-road and into the sand dunes

[cargirl1990]

Well, my dream jeep would have a bedlinered interior. Of course that's more for mud, but it does come in usefull since I'm quite often the designated driver and drunk people don't do so well in bouncy vehicles for some reason.

i can see that for Jeeps, but Chrysler's and Dodge's. no thank you. i don't trust a Chrysler product for everyday driving.

[f6fhellcat13]

i can see that for Jeeps, but Chrysler's and Dodge's. no thank you. i don't trust a Chrysler product for everyday driving.
But, Jeeps are a Chrysler product these days, even if wwgkd's is an AMC product (for some reason I assume it's early '80s).

[cargirl1990]

But, Jeeps are a Chrysler product these days, even if wwgkd's is an AMC product (for some reason I assume it's early '80s).

yeah but Chrysler is a LUXURY BRAND. not a basic, affordable brand. its supposed to be competition for Buicks and Cadillacs and the like. and i know those companies do better than Chrysler can.

[wwgkd]

But, Jeeps are a Chrysler product these days, even if wwgkd's is an AMC product (for some reason I assume it's early '80s).

It's a YJ which debuted in the 80's but mine is a '94, the 2nd to last year of production for the square headlight jeeps.


yeah but Chrysler is a LUXURY BRAND. not a basic, affordable brand. its supposed to be competition for Buicks and Cadillacs and the like. and i know those companies do better than Chrysler can.

I've been in a 300C limited and it compared pretty well to the Buicks I've been in. It's just the stripper base model that isn't that great. Remember the 300C won more awards from car magazines than any other car sold in north america.

[LeonOfTheDead]

yeah but Chrysler is a LUXURY BRAND. not a basic, affordable brand. its supposed to be competition for Buicks and Cadillacs and the like. and i know those companies do better than Chrysler can.

Chrysler isn't a luxury brand, really.
Buick is a wannabe luxury brand.
Cadillac...I don't know, perhaps it's a luxury brand by North American standards, even if I have to say they improved a lot with the recent line-up.
Chrysler just isn't what you said.

PT Cruiser, Neon.

[cargirl1990]

am i overgeneralizing again with my ignorance?

[LeonOfTheDead]

am i overgeneralizing again with my ignorance?

No, you just got screwed by a bit of chrome and ads.
I like the 300 (300C over here) and it's surely a good competitor for the other cars of the segment, but honestly, it's a generation behind the competition.
From all points of view except its quality which is rather good. It costs less, it has less useless stuff, and its less wannabe-the-cool-old-daddy.
Which can be good, depending on your point of view.

If you think to the rest of their line-up...luxury isn't really contemplated.
I can't even say MB is really a luxury brand, but it's surely is some steps above Chrysler.
If Cadillac is a luxury brand, does Chrysler even look like Cadillac? I don't think so, and I'm still wondering what's the purpose of the Buick brand these days.

[cargirl1990]

No, you just got screwed by a bit of chrome and ads.
I like the 300 (300C over here) and it's surely a good competitor for the other cars of the segment, but honestly, it's a generation behind the competition.
From all points of view except its quality which is rather good. It costs less, it has less useless stuff, and its less wannabe-the-cool-old-daddy.
Which can be good, depending on your point of view.

If you think to the rest of their line-up...luxury isn't really contemplated.
I can't even say MB is really a luxury brand, but it's surely is some steps above Chrysler.
If Cadillac is a luxury brand, does Chrysler even look like Cadillac? I don't think so, and I'm still wondering what's the purpose of the Buick brand these days.


well, Buick and Oldmobile had the same purpose: entry level luxury brand.
thats why they killed Oldsmobile!! :D

[Kitdy]

I think Wiki puts it well: Chrysler is a near-luxury brand that competes with Buick.

I was just looking at Chrysler's line up and it is very, very sad. They have the PT Cruiser which is a joke and has nearly been axed several times, the Town and Country which is a more expensive and slightly more luxurious Dodge Caravan that makes no sense, the Sebring which is frankly garbage, and the 300 which made sense when it came out but is now not so great with gas prices and the recession. Chrysler the division, has no good cars.

Now I shall check Dodge... Avenger - crap. Caliber - crap. Charger - fat, bad on gas, not really good. Challenger - cool, but I'd heavily bet it sells less than the Camaro and Mustang and is fat and bad on gas and introduce about 10 years after it woulda been optimal to do. Viper, pretty good, the ACR proves that the Viper has it going on but it was gonna be sold and no buyers brought enough to the table so I think that speaks to how well it's doing - I don't really see any new Vipers but I see tons of new Corvettes.

So Dodge really doesn't have any successful cars either. Then there's the trucks. Nitro - unbelievable crap. Journey - I guess they figured they'd cash in on the crossover thing but when there's the Caravan too... Caravan I'd say is good but I think minivans make sense for families but people are too dumb to buy them and buy/bought SUVs instead. Maybe the economic crisis/gas prices will make things come back to the minivan a bit soon, I dunno; or maybe Dodge has it right with the Journey and the minivan will die off. Durangos don't sell and no longer make any sense, the Ram is worst in sales of in the Big Three truck war, and the Sprinter is a commercial vehicle.

As for Jeep, I don't know much about them but I don't think SUVs are a good thing right now or when the economy picks up and gas prices skyrocket again... But then again, looking at their numbers, they only had a -2% daily sales rate decrease in US sales in July 2009 over July 2008 so either they aren't losing out badly, or things were bad enough this time last year and they somehow didn't get worse.

Looking at all these cars makes me think Fiat is making a big mistake buying Chrysler and that Chrysler really needs some new stellar product if it intends to survive into the future.

[cargirl1990]

I think Wiki puts it well: Chrysler is a near-luxury brand that competes with Buick.

I was just looking at Chrysler's line up and it is very, very sad. They have the PT Cruiser which is a joke and has nearly been axed several times, the Town and Country which is a more expensive and slightly more luxurious Dodge Caravan that makes no sense, the Sebring which is frankly garbage, and the 300 which made sense when it came out but is now not so great with gas prices and the recession. Chrysler the division, has no good cars.

Now I shall check Dodge... Avenger - crap. Caliber - crap. Charger - fat, bad on gas, not really good. Challenger - cool, but I'd heavily bet it sells less than the Camaro and Mustang and is fat and bad on gas and introduce about 10 years after it woulda been optimal to do. Viper, pretty good, the ACR proves that the Viper has it going on but it was gonna be sold and no buyers brought enough to the table so I think that speaks to how well it's doing - I don't really see any new Vipers but I see tons of new Corvettes.

So Dodge really doesn't have any successful cars either. Then there's the trucks. Nitro - unbelievable crap. Journey - I guess they figured they'd cash in on the crossover thing but when there's the Caravan too... Caravan I'd say is good but I think minivans make sense for families but people are too dumb to buy them and buy/bought SUVs instead. Maybe the economic crisis/gas prices will make things come back to the minivan a bit soon, I dunno; or maybe Dodge has it right with the Journey and the minivan will die off. Durangos don't sell and no longer make any sense, the Ram is worst in sales of in the Big Three truck war, and the Sprinter is a commercial vehicle.

As for Jeep, I don't know much about them but I don't think SUVs are a good thing right now or when the economy picks up and gas prices skyrocket again... But then again, looking at their numbers, they only had a -2% daily sales rate decrease in US sales in July 2009 over July 2008 so either they aren't losing out badly, or things were bad enough this time last year and they somehow didn't get worse.

Looking at all these cars makes me think Fiat is making a big mistake buying Chrysler and that Chrysler really needs some new stellar product if it intends to survive into the future.

agree. i can rant about Chrysler forever...

[LTSmash]

entry level luxury brand.

This is an oxymoron.

[Kitdy]

It makes sense sorta. It's entry level for a luxury car manufacturer, but I think we've found the better term - near-luxury.

[cargirl1990]

It makes sense sorta. It's entry level for a luxury car manufacturer, but I think we've found the better term - near-luxury.

heres my term: no luxury.

[wwgkd]

It makes sense sorta. It's entry level for a luxury car manufacturer, but I think we've found the better term - near-luxury.

So instead of entry level supercar it's a near-supercar?

[LTSmash]

So instead of entry level supercar it's a near-supercar?

Entry level super car = sports car. Maybe?

[Kitdy]

So instead of entry level supercar it's a near-supercar?

Hush you. There is no such thing as an entry level supercar. The GT-R, ZR1 and ACR just happen to be cheapish supercars.

[wwgkd]

Hush you. There is no such thing as an entry level supercar. The GT-R, ZR1 and ACR just happen to be cheapish supercars.

I forget the car, but some company was advertising as such. Always seemed stupid to me, but so does calling any high performance car a super car. It creates the need for terms like super-duper-car.

[cargirl1990]

Hush you. There is no such thing as an entry level supercar. The GT-R, ZR1 and ACR just happen to be cheapish supercars.

then the CCX is a Super D Dupercar?

[LeonOfTheDead]

You are all discussing about supercars and Chrysler.
The first category was invented by kids and run by men, the second was created by men but in the last years run by kids.
Both are something really hard to identify, both has a real subjective value.
Just supercars are worth something.
If you look at the disctionary-by-G35coupe you'll find out an exotic (so basically a supercar, ok?) is a car you can't own. So if you can't own a Corvette Z06, that's a supercar. For the record I live in a world of exotics.
What about Chrysler, what is it?
It's a gamble by Fiat and the US Government. Some say it used to built cars, good ones any now and then, and that they are still used in a place call Area 51.
All we know is now one buys a Chrysler these days.

[clutch-monkey]

is Chrysler dead now? why does it need to still exist?
after inflicting that jeep on me, i'd rather it went ahead and committed sepuku than be saved by anyone.

[LeonOfTheDead]

its purpose is to allow Fiat to enter the North American market, officially, and then something else I never understood.

[MRR]

If this wasn't a "gift" to the police this is an incredible waste of taxpayer money

[LeonOfTheDead]

If this wasn't a "gift" to the police this is an incredible waste of taxpayer money

it's an ad.

[G35COUPE]

You are all discussing about supercars and Chrysler.
The first category was invented by kids and run by men, the second was created by men but in the last years run by kids.
Both are something really hard to identify, both has a real subjective value.
Just supercars are worth something.
If you look at the disctionary-by-G35coupe you'll find out an exotic (so basically a supercar, ok?) is a car you can't own. So if you can't own a Corvette Z06, that's a supercar. For the record I live in a world of exotics.
What about Chrysler, what is it?
It's a gamble by Fiat and the US Government. Some say it used to built cars, good ones any now and then, and that they are still used in a place call Area 51.
All we know is now one buys a Chrysler these days.


Frankly, you are right. Its a huge risk between Chrysler and the US govt. The US govt has already prepared plans to fully liquidate Chrysler if need be. But the owner of FIAT, known for his huge appetite for risk-taking, is being given a chance to revive Chrsyler since no US corporation, with all their MBA executives they have, has the balls to do so. If FIAT fails, the US govt has no problems with liquidating Chrysler for good.

It saddens me to see that my fellow americans are not up to the task of rescuitating our own coriporations. All we want is short-term quick gains on evertything in life. It is sad that it is going to take an Italian to teach us how to bring corporations back to life. :)

[cargirl1990]

Frankly, you are right. Its a huge risk between Chrysler and the US govt. The US govt has already prepared plans to fully liquidate Chrysler if need be. But the owner of FIAT, known for his huge appetite for risk-taking, is being given a chance to revive Chrsyler since no US corporation, with all their MBA executives they have, has the balls to do so. If FIAT fails, the US govt has no problems with liquidating Chrysler for good.

It saddens me to see that my fellow americans are not up to the task of rescuitating our own coriporations. All we want is short-term quick gains on evertything in life. It is sad that it is going to take an Italian to teach us how to bring corporations back to life. :)

just look at Kitdy's summary of Chrylser G35COUPE. he's got the right resources and i'd totally side with him.

[group c n b man]

The ISF should prove rather deadly to criminals who try and flee. It's almost the ideal vehicle because of it's performance and rather subtle appearance. It will run down ordinary cars and hothatches with ease. The only cars it may have trouble with are very very fast cars which, lets be honest, most criminals can't afford to own.

[popei.oliver]

http://www.autoshortnews.com/cops-zeta-sedan-gm-unveils-355-hp-chevy-caprice-police-car/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/01-caprice-police-press-620op.jpg

[G35COUPE]

One benefit of being a cop these days is that you get to drive around a super fast wikid car at high speeds all day. Oh yeah, I can live with that.

[Ferrer]

One benefit of being a cop these days is that you get to drive around a super fast wikid car at high speeds all day. Oh yeah, I can live with that.
Here the most you'd drive is a Seat Toledo diesel...

[G35COUPE]

Here the most you'd drive is a Seat Toledo diesel...

So, whats happening with Silvio Berlusconi? Are you all in Italy gonna finally nail him for all his crimes and corruption? Is he really divorcing his wife? Will she take him to the cleaners? How old is Silvio, really?

[Ferrer]

So, whats happening with Silvio Berlusconi? Are you all in Italy gonna finally nail him for all his crimes and corruption? Is he really divorcing his wife? Will she take him to the cleaners? How old is Silvio, really?
I live slitghlty more to the west than that...

[IBrake4Rainbows]

YouTube - Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

It's near the Iraq.

[G35COUPE]

YouTube - Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww)

It's near the Iraq.

Epic!!!

As i have always beleived in this life, the law of proportions and ratios (my law), suggests that providence cannot give any human being complete beauty and complete brains, in equal proportions. He gives these qualities in ratios that ultimately add up to 100%. So one may get 30% brains and 70% beauty, or 60% brains and 40% beauty. 50 - 50 is a rarity of nature. :)

[pimento]

Epic!!!

As i have always beleived in this life, the law of proportions and ratios (my law), suggests that providence cannot give any human being complete beauty and complete brains, in equal proportions. He gives these qualities in ratios that ultimately add up to 100%. So one may get 30% brains and 70% beauty, or 60% brains and 40% beauty. 50 - 50 is a rarity of nature. :)

I've met some pretty ugly stupid people in my time.. and some rather attractive intellegent ones.

[G35COUPE]

I've met some pretty ugly stupid people in my time.. and some rather attractive intellegent ones.

You met statistical outliers in the population of the human race. :)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I think this girl might have been deprived of oxygen during birth or something.

Having said that though she has a great future in Politics...saying nothing in particular for the alloted time on an issue she clearly has no care or understanding of.

[LeonOfTheDead]

So, whats happening with Silvio Berlusconi? Are you all in Italy gonna finally nail him for all his crimes and corruption? Is he really divorcing his wife? Will she take him to the cleaners? How old is Silvio, really?

if you hear something bad about him, his relatives, his friends, his political alleys, it is true.
if you hear something good about him, his relatives, his friends, his political alleys, the person who is speaking has been payed to say that and he is probably a member of the aforementioned categories.