Chevy Volt: 230MPG City [Archive] - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

RacingManiac

08-11-2009, 01:05 PM

TheStar.com | Business | Volt to get 100 km per litre, GM says (http://www.thestar.com/business/article/679303)

Obviously the mileage figure doesn't tell the whole story, since EPA rates the mileage base on the fuel used in city cycle for a fixed distance, and in that range part of the time the car is full electric, and uses no fuel...

Wonder what the 3rd gen Prius with plug-in does, the Hymotion plug-in converted car does 100mpg I think.....

Interesting I think, especially for commuter car point of view, but the cost needs to come down a whole lot...

NSXType-R

08-11-2009, 01:36 PM

Wow, EPA inflation, by any chance?

RacingManiac

08-11-2009, 01:46 PM

I think its feasible, since the car uses no fuel for 40 miles out of that test cycle, and its a fairly small gas engine....with regenerative braking and whatnot....

092326001

08-11-2009, 02:54 PM

how does EPA test anyways?
the 455-SD in the pontiacs firebirds somehow cheated to meet regulations didn't they?

PRC777

08-11-2009, 03:59 PM

All I can say for the Volt and its pricing is "dealer mark-up". I mean, this econobox could face a price hike of at least $40,000 or a little over (i.e premuim package[s] added).

Dino Scuderia

08-11-2009, 04:07 PM

(c)Lutz was just on TV hyping the Volt and said the $40k price tag wasn't firm...and also mentioned the $7500 gov't(taxpayer) incentive for buying one.

Kitdy

08-11-2009, 04:24 PM

Why's Lutz a clutz Dino?

Dino Scuderia

08-11-2009, 04:35 PM

He's a horrible car company manager...along with the telephone guy they hired, Fritz.

GM will always be GM....which is doomed.

RacingManiac

08-11-2009, 05:17 PM

I don't know about him be horrible, he has the right idea with working on products to revive the company...and finally have the right idea of using the rest of world's GM product....

Kitdy

08-11-2009, 05:31 PM

He's a horrible car company manager...along with the telephone guy they hired, Fritz.

GM will always be GM....which is doomed.

Do you have some specific examples of his horribleosity?

wwgkd

08-11-2009, 06:33 PM

Do you have some specific examples of his horribleosity?

I'm going to start using that word now.

As to the car, lets wait and see how it comes out before going wild over it one way or the other.

pimento

08-11-2009, 06:38 PM

The EPA hasn't actually tested it yet, the 230 figure was just come to by GM. Here (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/epa-backs-away-from-gm-claim-of-230-mpg-for-volt/).

cargirl1990

08-11-2009, 06:53 PM

im mixed on this. i don't believe that getting above 55mpg is even possible in this day and age. its a little too fantabulis.

Roentgen

08-11-2009, 07:00 PM

Give it time. Price will drop as the tech gets developed a little more.

pimento

08-11-2009, 07:03 PM

im mixed on this. i don't believe that getting above 55mpg is even possible in this day and age. its a little too fantabulis.

Given that GM are basing that figure mostly running on battery charged from a wall socket with no engine running, it doesn't seem too farfetched that it could happen. Unrealistic in the real world maybe, but possible to achieve if you put your mind to it.

cargirl1990

08-11-2009, 07:13 PM

Given that GM are basing that figure mostly running on battery charged from a wall socket with no engine running, it doesn't seem too farfetched that it could happen. Unrealistic in the real world maybe, but possible to achieve if you put your mind to it.

you have a point thar.

Kitdy

08-12-2009, 01:13 AM

I'm going to start using that word now.

As to the car, lets wait and see how it comes out before going wild over it one way or the other.

'Tis a good word, a good word it is. You can add -osity to many words to make even more superfantabulous words.

LeonOfTheDead

08-12-2009, 02:57 AM

perhaps you may want to discuss this as well: Nissan LEAF LOLs at the Volt (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/nissan-pokes-fun-at-the-volt-claims-367-mpg-equivalent-for-leaf/)

Dino Scuderia

08-12-2009, 04:55 AM

Do you have some specific examples of his horribleosity?

He has had some successes in the models he pushed...and many said Wagoner was brilliant for hiring Lutz who did actually give the design department a kick in the ass and lift it form the hell it was in in the 80's and 90's. IMO his tenure was not steller....I mean he may have transformed GM from horribleosity(;)) to merely mediocrefailurety in the product mix department... so what. When he was at Ford he headed the Merkur failure.

With that said he retires at the end of this year and the Volt will be his swan song.

GM needs an enema and I was(am) hoping that when he's gone some new blood will be hired that can really shake up the old and tired GM culture. That is a tall order in a huge company I realize.

When I see all good stuff Ford has in their product pipeline and then compare to GM I'm not seeing very much light at the end of the tunnel for them. That's the origin for my disappointment so far. Ford could also do even better...IMO Ford should be selling the Falcon XR6 Turbo and Mondeo XR5 Turbo here in the US. Ford is grasping for and getting market share and enthusiasts here are starving for cars like those.

I'm getting off topic of Lutz but this all ties in with what's wrong with American auto. They have to figure why they can't get the formula right ie. product/marketing/price point. Couldn't sell the recent Pontiac GTO or G8's while buyers are driving home 350/370Z's, BMW's, G35's etc. They need to realize where they are on the food chain and price accordingly. Now that they have 'downsized' and restructured debt etc. maybe they can be a price leader.

Then there's the Solstice, a child of Lutz, that one of my friends nailed as soon as it came to fruition, "I remember the boasting when the Solstice came out about it being so much better than the Miata; boasting by GM, boasting by GM fanboys. The press even bought it hook, line, and sinker...guess the pretty style, the press junkets with free food and free travel are enough to buy any automotive writer's opinion. Nearly every rag declared Solstice the winner, Miata the loser. Dealers gouged. At the time I told anyone that would listen "just wait a few years and see for yourself what GM will do with the Solstice". History has a way of repeating itself.

Of course as the years went by, we came to find the Solstice was the worst rated car in the industry, writers/owners complained of shoddy construction, horrible fit/finish, a ridiculously complicated trunk/top, zero luggage space if the top was down, and reliability issues. Another GM half-baked idea. Another GM half-baked idea that got killed before a second generation. It looked good, but that beauty was clearly only skin deep.

Yeah...the Solstice ruled! For 5 minutes."

GM's history is littered with this kind of aimless ambition...yes even in the Lutz era.

G35COUPE

08-12-2009, 05:11 AM

RacingManiac

08-12-2009, 05:35 AM

On the fuel mileage business, the way to extra miles out of a hybrid is also heavily dependent on the driving style. Which is why the drivers needs to be educated about them as well. City of Toronto got these Hybrid buses last year, and they were getting no better mileage. But if you've seen the drivers drive the business in Toronto that's hardly surprising, considering how often I've been cut-off by a bus accelerate while cutting in your lane(sedan vs a bus in a collision, no thanks). And the same reason why my friend who works at a plug-in hybrid company have to teach the customer how to utilize them. I am wondering though if the Volt is different in that respect, since its technically a full electric vehicle, the power comes from the electric motor instead of using the gas to supplement the power.....

IBrake4Rainbows

08-12-2009, 05:48 AM

It's a lovely figure...but I'll believe it when it's independently verified.

Still, 300 miles on like...one 1/2 gallons. thats pretty sweet.

cargirl1990

08-12-2009, 06:31 AM

GM has to focus on marketing and not just engineering. This is where Japanese companies are whooping their a$$e$.

Can anyone show me a V-8 like the Corvette with over 430 horse power that can get 28 mpg on the highway, at a cost as small as $43K? Almost unheard off, and yet few people realize how relatively fuel efficient the Chevy Corvette really is, for the power it produces.

the Corvette gets around 18 to 22 mpg. thats why i like it so much. :D
you have a small block V8 that can achieve the fuel efficiency of, say, a V6?
which i find pretty much filled with awesomeness.

culver

08-12-2009, 07:57 AM

the Corvette gets around 18 to 22 mpg. thats why i like it so much. :D
you have a small block V8 that can achieve the fuel efficiency of, say, a V6?
which i find pretty much filled with awesomeness.

The 28+ mpg figure is a realistic highway mileage for a base Corvette.

henk4

08-12-2009, 08:05 AM

yet few people realize how relatively fuel efficient the Chevy Corvette really is, for the power it produces.
right, but at a time when it is efficient it does not produce much power. If you want to potter along with 65 mph at 1800 revs, you are not using the Corvette for what it was intended. However if you do use the power it can produce, the 28 mpg becomes a purely academic figure.
I do understand that "relatively" is the operative word here, but I think it is more relevant to quote figures for the circumstances the Corvette is principally designed for. There are several threads here where such comparisons have been made in extenso.

RacingManiac

08-12-2009, 08:33 AM

Still, 300 miles on like...one 1/2 gallons. thats pretty sweet.

Well that's not entirely true, since the 230 MPG is the figure used based on the EPA calc, which is based on some defined distance, which on the volt means mixing pure electric + gas generated electric mode. So once you are out of the 40 mile EV mode you are starting to use gas like a normal car. GM is sure that the highway EPA cycle will still yield 100+mpg, which is pretty stellar still....

Then there is the case for the sub-40 miles commuter type, which can potentially not use gas at all....

G35COUPE

08-12-2009, 08:37 AM

right, but at a time when it is efficient it does not produce much power. If you want to potter along with 65 mph at 1800 revs, you are not using the Corvette for what it was intended. However if you do use the power it can produce, the 28 mpg becomes a purely academic figure.
I do understand that "relatively" is the operative word here, but I think it is more relevant to quote figures for the circumstances the Corvette is principally designed for. There are several threads here where such comparisons have been made in extenso.

This is true. I would generally agree. However, based on my extensive observation, I rarely see Corvette drivers driving like they are on the race track on public roads. There are plenty of them around my area and most of the Corvettee drivers are almost always on the slow lane, driving casually and with respect for others. So, for this, I wouldn't discount the 28 mpg of the corvette so easily.

wstander

08-12-2009, 08:47 AM

He's a horrible car company manager...along with the telephone guy they hired, Fritz.

GM will always be GM....which is doomed.

Yeah, unfortunately, even Yugo would have more credibility than most would give to GM..

Imagine if this had come from Toyota or even Volvo!!

The auto press would be having orgasms............

culver

08-12-2009, 08:48 AM

right, but at a time when it is efficient it does not produce much power. If you want to potter along with 65 mph at 1800 revs, you are not using the Corvette for what it was intended. However if you do use the power it can produce, the 28 mpg becomes a purely academic figure.
I do understand that "relatively" is the operative word here, but I think it is more relevant to quote figures for the circumstances the Corvette is principally designed for. There are several threads here where such comparisons have been made in extenso.

When you are driving on the highway the car can deliver 28mpg even at speeds upwards of 80mph. Yes, that isn't the only place to drive a Corvette but it does mater. I drive between states quite a bit so I do care about HW mileage. The twisty roads aren't all located next door.

culver

08-12-2009, 08:50 AM

This is true. I would generally agree. However, based on my extensive observation, I rarely see Corvette drivers driving like they are on the race track on public roads. There are plenty of them around my area and most of the Corvettee drivers are almost always on the slow lane, driving casually and with respect for others. So, for this, I wouldn't discount the 28 mpg of the corvette so easily.

I saw about 20mpg in the city in an '05 Corvette. It was 28 on the long highway runs. So both numbers are correct depending on where you use it.

wstander

08-12-2009, 08:52 AM

Then there's the Solstice, a child of Lutz, that one of my friends nailed as soon as it came to fruition, "I remember the boasting when the Solstice came out about it being so much better than the Miata; boasting by GM, boasting by GM fanboys. The press even bought it hook, line, and sinker...guess the pretty style, the press junkets with free food and free travel are enough to buy any automotive writer's opinion. Nearly every rag declared Solstice the winner, Miata the loser. Dealers gouged. At the time I told anyone that would listen "just wait a few years and see for yourself what GM will do with the Solstice". History has a way of repeating itself.

Of course as the years went by, we came to find the Solstice was the worst rated car in the industry, writers/owners complained of shoddy construction, horrible fit/finish, a ridiculously complicated trunk/top, zero luggage space if the top was down, and reliability issues. Another GM half-baked idea. Another GM half-baked idea that got killed before a second generation. It looked good, but that beauty was clearly only skin deep.

Yeah...the Solstice ruled! For 5 minutes."

GM's history is littered with this kind of aimless ambition...yes even in the Lutz era.

But I wonder what would have been said of the Soltice/Skye had it simply been sold as a Vauxhall __________, which it is???

Perception is 100% of reality to many, you know.

One of the rules of GM salvation being touted was to bring in some of the European cars, like Cadillac and Opel, instead of relying on domestic designs....apparently that did not translte well either.....

culver

08-12-2009, 08:54 AM

Well that's not entirely true, since the 230 MPG is the figure used based on the EPA calc, which is based on some defined distance, which on the volt means mixing pure electric + gas generated electric mode. So once you are out of the 40 mile EV mode you are starting to use gas like a normal car. GM is sure that the highway EPA cycle will still yield 100+mpg, which is pretty stellar still....

Then there is the case for the sub-40 miles commuter type, which can potentially not use gas at all....

The quote I heard was EPA combined cycle. I've heard only very vague rumors for highway but most seem to be on par with other hybrids on the highway. Figure mid 40s. However, I do think that based on the cost of gas vs electricity and the "average" commute the real cost to most consumers would be similar to a car returning over 100mpg. That is a gasoline car would have to get 100+mpg to have the same total fuel cost as the Volt when we include an "average" commute and charging every night. Of course with a plug in system you mileage may vary... a lot!

ScionDriver

08-12-2009, 09:52 AM

RacingManiac

08-12-2009, 10:39 AM

But I wonder what would have been said of the Soltice/Skye had it simply been sold as a Vauxhall __________, which it is???

Perception is 100% of reality to many, you know.

One of the rules of GM salvation being touted was to bring in some of the European cars, like Cadillac and Opel, instead of relying on domestic designs....apparently that did not translte well either.....

I thought the Solstice/Sky was made to replace the Opel/Vauxhall Speedster, and it was made on the global small rwd platform to replace the "specialty" Speedster platform based on the Lotus Elise....

I don't think the idea is to replace domestic with European/Australian cars, more to the point of utilizing existing design to save R&D cost. The product overlap for the same type of application was so big that why would one want to spend 3 times the cost to develop a different car for the same segment of the market in different part of the world, rather develop the same car but adopt it to the different market....that is where companies like Toyota excels at....

G35COUPE

08-12-2009, 11:03 AM

Yeah, unfortunately, even Yugo would have more credibility than most would give to GM..

Imagine if this had come from Toyota or even Volvo!!

The auto press would be having orgasms............

Absolutely true! Well said!

It pains me to know that GM has a harder time convincing americans that they make good cars, and yet Toyota can get away with murder with their problematic and recalled Tundras and their oil sludge issue with some of their previous engines.

We need to start giving american made cars a fair shake. Another classic example of quality in an american made car is the Cadillac CTS. It is unbelievably comfortable. The interior of a BMW 3 series does not come close to the interior of a Cadillac CTS. The first time I saw a modern day Cadillac CTS, i realized that GM was well on its way to waking up from its 4 decade slumber.:)

Dino Scuderia

08-12-2009, 11:10 AM

I thought the Solstice/Sky was made to replace the Opel/Vauxhall Speedster, and it was made on the global small rwd platform to replace the "specialty" Speedster platform based on the Lotus Elise....

The platform never was able to be parlayed over to a viable counterpart in other markets. Another GM goof.

Dino Scuderia

08-12-2009, 11:21 AM

Absolutely true! Well said!

It pains me to know that GM has a harder time convincing americans that they make good cars, and yet Toyota can get away with murder with their problematic and recalled Tundras and their oil sludge issue with some of their previous engines.

We need to start giving american made cars a fair shake. Another classic example of quality in an american made car is the Cadillac CTS. It is unbelievably comfortable. The interior of a BMW 3 series does not come close to the interior of a Cadillac CTS. The first time I saw a modern day Cadillac CTS, i realized that GM was well on its way to waking up from its 4 decade slumber.:)

Agreed. I'm still very critical of GM mostly because of their past gaffe's but they have raised their quality. They just have one helluva reputation... I don't know if they will ever overcome it. The good part is they realize this, now the ball is really in their court to fix it.

For myself....how will I know I'm over it? When they make something I feel is reasonable priced, fun and quality made that I would be inclined to drive home. So far I don't see anything.

culver

08-12-2009, 11:48 AM

It's a good idea but as I saw a GM Spokesperson point out yesterday, the car isn't for everyone. It's for the Prius crowd who think they are making a difference by paying an extra $10-20k for a $15-20k car because it has a battery and gets good MPG. Once the technology drops in price it will be a better and more feasible purchase for normal people.

This was also largely true of the first Prius. It was only marginally better than the Echo. The price difference was I think around $6k ($21k vs $15k) but that number is vague recollection. At the time gas was well under $2/gallon so the payback time was long and Toyota was loosing money on every Prius sold (well rumor has it Tokyo was helping out quite a bit under the table). The latest Prius performs far better, cost about the same and could now be considered a rational purchase even without considering the green bend. Still, if they made a proper Corolla hatch my one reason for getting a Prius over the Corolla would vanish.
I will be very curious to see how much cheaper the Volt type technology becomes as the batteries and other systems become better integrated and streamlined.

Matra et Alpine

08-12-2009, 12:24 PM

im mixed on this. i don't believe that getting above 55mpg is even possible in this day and age. its a little too fantabulis.

Hmmm, you do know that's fairly common over here ?
Top 10 Real World MPG Figures (http://www.whatmpg.co.uk/Top%2010%20real%20World%20MPG.html)

culver

08-12-2009, 12:32 PM

I think those numbers are in Imperial gallons vs US gallons and I think the Euro cycle returns higher mileage numbers than the EPA cycle but your point stands, real cars can and have returned 55mpg. In the US the original Insite returned over 55mpg. I think the Suzuki Swift was also right around 45 mpg just by being small and light. Both for these are gasoline models. A small diesel would really boost the numbers.

pimento

08-12-2009, 05:41 PM

Hmmm, you do know that's fairly common over here ?
Top 10 Real World MPG Figures (http://www.whatmpg.co.uk/Top%2010%20real%20World%20MPG.html)

Yea, but your Gs are bigger than US Gs, so you get more Ms from them.

cargirl1990

08-12-2009, 09:23 PM

Yea, but your Gs are bigger than US Gs, so you get more Ms from them.

and better looking cars.

wstander

08-13-2009, 07:22 AM

The platform never was able to be parlayed over to a viable counterpart in other markets. Another GM goof.

Ahh, but you miss my point.

The anti-GM pundits were stating that "if only GM would bring in more of it European and Australian vehicles, that would save them". Or at least that was the 'conventional wisdom' of those who never had to market an automobile:)

I too have waited a long time to buy USA or GM, only to find that what they build, no matter the quality, no longer meets my needs....pity, because the CTS and even some of the recent Buicks are really solid performers, the equal of some German sedans.........

But now I need a 40+mpg hatchback costing less that USD27K....

Dino Scuderia

08-13-2009, 07:36 AM

Ahh, but you miss my point.

The anti-GM pundits were stating that "if only GM would bring in more of it European and Australian vehicles, that would save them". Or at least that was the 'conventional wisdom' of those who never had to market an automobile:)

I too have waited a long time to buy USA or GM, only to find that what they build, no matter the quality, no longer meets my needs....pity, because the CTS and even some of the recent Buicks are really solid performers, the equal of some German sedans.........

But now I need a 40+mpg hatchback costing less that USD27K....

I wasn't responding to your point, I was responding to RacingManiac's.:rolleyes:

wstander

08-13-2009, 07:44 AM

I wasn't responding to your point, I was responding to RacingManiac's.:rolleyes:

Ooops, sorry...lost track:eek:

wstander

08-13-2009, 07:56 AM

Well that's not entirely true, since the 230 MPG is the figure used based on the EPA calc, which is based on some defined distance, which on the volt means mixing pure electric + gas generated electric mode. So once you are out of the 40 mile EV mode you are starting to use gas like a normal car. GM is sure that the highway EPA cycle will still yield 100+mpg, which is pretty stellar still....

Then there is the case for the sub-40 miles commuter type, which can potentially not use gas at all....

Uhh, are you sure? The petrol engine only generates power to the generator to charge the batteries; it is not connected to the drive wheels at all like a Prius or Insight. So to claim gasoline usage as a normal car is currently without foundation, unless I missed something.

What IS the distance covered in the 'EPA cycle' anyway? 100 miles?, 45 miles? Whatever it is, now it appears that the EPA does not want its test to be used without changing, unfairly, the conditions and rules of that cycle as it applies to cars like the Volt. (i.e.: EPA wants the gas engine to be on all of the time; GM wants it engaged only to recharge...the lawsuit continues..)

Bureaucrats DO hate innovation:rolleyes:

Either the EPA Cycle is a viable measure for ALL cars and trucks, or it needs to be rewritten, again.

Dino Scuderia

08-13-2009, 08:04 AM

Matra et Alpine

08-13-2009, 08:44 AM

The EPA cycle is useless when hybrids are involved as the variation based on variables they do not monitor is HUUUUUGE.

The EP and European standards were recently modified to reflect the different driving conditions and styles of the "average" driver to make it more "realistic".

They MUST do something about hybrids AND pure electrical or there will be no way to comapre "energy costs/impact" between petrol/diesel/hybrid but also looking forward between hybrids and electric.

wstander

08-13-2009, 08:46 AM

The batteries will be made by LG of South Korea....so we're trading dependence on foreign oil for dependence on foreign batteries.

GM Volt battery plant in Brownstown Township will create jobs | detnews.com | The Detroit News (http://www.detnews.com/article/20090813/AUTO01/908130435/1148/GM+Volt+battery+plant+in+Brownstown+Township+will+ create+jobs)

Sort of:

From deeper in the same article--

"Eventually LG Chem's U.S. subsidiary, Compact Power Inc., also will build cells in the U.S."

Funny how the 'greens' drove hard manufacturing overseas, but now some decry the lack of an industrial base here when we need it:rolleyes:

Dino Scuderia

08-13-2009, 10:03 AM

Sort of:

From deeper in the same article--

"Eventually LG Chem's U.S. subsidiary, Compact Power Inc., also will build cells in the U.S."

Funny how the 'greens' drove hard manufacturing overseas, but now some decry the lack of an industrial base here when we need it:rolleyes:

It will still be a dependence on foreign technology.

Yeah, just wait until LG experiences all the red tape they have to endure to build a battery plant in the US.

wstander

08-13-2009, 10:57 AM

It will still be a dependence on foreign technology.

Yeah, just wait until LG experiences all the red tape they have to endure to build a battery plant in the US.

Oh, to be sure!!

Special dispensations will no doubt follow:D

Still, all of that will drive the costs and price up...

wwgkd

08-13-2009, 11:23 AM

Uhh, are you sure? The petrol engine only generates power to the generator to charge the batteries; it is not connected to the drive wheels at all like a Prius or Insight. So to claim gasoline usage as a normal car is currently without foundation, unless I missed something.

What IS the distance covered in the 'EPA cycle' anyway? 100 miles?, 45 miles? Whatever it is, now it appears that the EPA does not want its test to be used without changing, unfairly, the conditions and rules of that cycle as it applies to cars like the Volt. (i.e.: EPA wants the gas engine to be on all of the time; GM wants it engaged only to recharge...the lawsuit continues..)

Bureaucrats DO hate innovation:rolleyes:

Either the EPA Cycle is a viable measure for ALL cars and trucks, or it needs to be rewritten, again.

City cycle is 11 miles long at an average speed of 21mph. Highway is 10.3 miles long at an average speed of 48. Both use acceleration of about 18 seconds to 60. They then use some fancy math to approximate more realistic speeds, but it basically fails. People have been trying to change how the tests are conducted for decades (only 15% of new models are tested anyways, on the rest the epa accepts the numbers from the manufacturers) but there's so much bureaucracy tied up in it that it's almost impossible.

Edit: Also for the european cycle vs american cycle differences, the european cycle is about 30% higher than the EPA ratings.

wstander

08-13-2009, 12:32 PM

wwgkd

08-13-2009, 01:00 PM

Thanks for the clarification.....sheeeshhh, how unrealistic...

By the same token, MPG rating was never the EPAs reason to be; envorinment and clean air...the MPG numbers were (initially) an afterthought..

Yeah, of the 17,000 employees of the EPA less than 20 work on this, so it's still almost an afterthought.

G35COUPE

08-13-2009, 02:57 PM

RacingManiac

08-13-2009, 09:43 PM

It will still be a dependence on foreign technology.

Yeah, just wait until LG experiences all the red tape they have to endure to build a battery plant in the US.

Is there such a thing as "foreign technology" these days? How do you define what technology is domestic and what is foreign?

On the same token, there are also American company supplying battery to foreign companies as well....and yes there are lots of test to be done for the battery to be certified for use, the friend works at A123 System spent the last 2 years traveling to various test labs and stuff to support the test of the battery pack, and not just US, but in Canada and EU as well.....

FYI, the 230MPG is calculated based on the formula EPA made for this type of vehicle, AFAIK its not the same cycle as the traditional cycle....I wouldn't be surprised if other Hybrid are calculated on the same formula may yield similar number....

RacingManiac

08-13-2009, 09:48 PM

wwgkd

08-13-2009, 09:55 PM

If its driven on "extended range" mode, ie the gas engine is charging the battery, basing on the work being done is the same, it shouldn't be an assumption at all that the car will burn gas like any normal car.....unless the losses on Volt is significantly less (or more) than normal car...

Part of the effeciency comes from the fact that it's not using energy at idle, but even in the US Porsche is bringing an engine shutoff feature to a full gas engine so that's not such a big advantage anymore. It's effeciency is pretty good, but the big reason why it's rated mileage will be so good is that it will be running off of wall power, and they don't count the oil burned to produce that power in these ratings unless it is full electric, in which case it gets rated as kWh/100 miles rather than mpg.

pimento

08-13-2009, 10:24 PM

wstander

08-14-2009, 06:47 AM

The main advantage this setup has over a traditional hybrid setup is that the engine will work at constant revs, so it can run at peak efficiency all the time. Presuming they set it up properly anyway.

But that is not what the ICE generator on the Volt does. As I understand it, it only powers on to recharge the batteries, it does not remain on continuously. Yes, when it is 'on' the engine runs at a fixed RPM, but it is cycled on and off as needed.

wstander

08-14-2009, 06:49 AM

Part of the effeciency comes from the fact that it's not using energy at idle, but even in the US Porsche is bringing an engine shutoff feature to a full gas engine so that's not such a big advantage anymore.

Hmm, VW did this about 20 years ago with limited success. Of course, we have better control systems and computers now;)

culver

08-14-2009, 07:34 AM

But that is not what the ICE generator on the Volt does. As I understand it, it only powers on to recharge the batteries, it does not remain on continuously. Yes, when it is 'on' the engine runs at a fixed RPM, but it is cycled on and off as needed.

I'm very curious to see what the ultimate implementation will look like. I suspect GM is still working on it as all the Volt test drives have been EV only. In theory a single speed and power motor system is best. But there may be practical implementation limits with that idea. A full or nothing control might cycle the engine on and off too frequently. It also might create thermal issues for the engine. I suspect GM will throttle the engine at times. They will also likely dynamically load it so the engine spends most of it's running time at near WOT but at lower RPM. This would result in the engine operating relatively efficiently but producing less than its 100hp peak. That's fine as odds are on flat ground the power needed to drive the wheel motor plus charge the batteries is less than 100hp.

We will probably see a system that tries to keep the IC engine at say 2500 RPM (a guess at the engine's peak efficiency speed) and around 40hp (another guess) at most times when it's running. If more power is needed the engine will speed up or slow down but almost always run at WOT. As I mentioned before engine speed can be regulated via the generator load (though fine control can be adjusted via the throttle plate).

All of what I just said is speculation and is subject to change without me admitting I was wrong ;)

pimento

08-14-2009, 08:31 AM

culver

08-14-2009, 08:54 AM

There appears to be some misunderstanding here. The engine will only run to charge the batteries: as such, it only needs to run at peak torque RPM to spin the generator. Job done. This also gives the system the capacity to be adapted to other power generation units as R&D provides them.

The IC engine will charge the batteries and drive the wheel motors at the same time. I completely understand there is no mechanical connection between the IC engine and the wheel motor.

That doesn't necessarily mean the IC engine will only run at one speed and throttle setting. For instance, let's make a few assumptions. First, let's assume the batteries are low. The computer has decided we can't discharge them any more. Now let's assume we can only put about 10hp worth of energy into the batteries at any time to charge them. By that I mean it takes 10hp to generate all the charge the batteries can take on at any moment. So anything over 10hp has to go to the wheel motors or is wasted (ignoring power to drive AC and other accessories). So in this case if we want to move we must use the gas motor to propel. The total load on the gas motor will be 10 hp for charging plus X-hp for moving us forward. If the wheel motors need 20 hp we need the IC engine to produce a total of 30hp. However, if we start up a hill we might need a total of 50hp. The IC engine will have to adjust it's power output.

The IC engine has an advantage over a traditional gas car in that the electric system can act like a really really good CVT. So the gas motor will adjust RPM and throttle setting for the most efficient combination for any total engine load. Most of the time it would run near WOT and simply change the speed of the motor in part by regulating the generator load. If we need all 100 gas ponies to climb a hill it will have to run at peak power (high RPM). If we need only 30hp it will likely run well below the peak torque RPM as the peak efficiency speed and throttle setting needed to generate 30hp is not nessisarily the same as the peak torque RPM. Peak torque RPM might result in more power than needed at WOT thus the engine would need to run throttled which would hurt efficiency.

Because the batteries likely can't take on charge as fast as the IC engine could generate it we will likely see the engine change speeds as road loads demand.

Basically, for what ever power level is needed the IC engine will be able to operate at the most efficient combination of RPM and throttle setting to deliver that power. Sometimes that will be at peak torque RPM, other times it will be higher or lower depending on load.

pimento

08-14-2009, 09:03 AM

Yea, see, I'm assuming that the batteries can discharge as much power as the motors can consume, so there's no need for the ICE to 'pick up the slack', so to speak. Otherwise, yes, you're quite correct. To my understanding this would give the greatest efficiency over long distances. Or course, it may be that the system is set to the assumption that most users will not go for long and as such run on batteries as much as possible. We'll have to watch out for someone doing some long vs short distance tests to let us know which way it sways I guess.

culver

08-14-2009, 09:07 AM

I think the batteries can discharge as much as the wheel motors can consume. I don't think they can charge as fast as they can discharge. My 10hp number is probably low but figure you could probably drain the batteries in 20 minutes (80mph and assume at at that speed you only get 27 mile of EV range) but it would probably take at least 1 hour to put all that charge back into the batteries. The 1 hour assumption is based on the charge profile of a laptop battery. Laptops typically charge at .6-.8C*. I'm assuming the Volt also charges at a peak of .8C. With that charge rate you get from about 30% to about 70% charge in a little less than 1 hour.

* C is charge rate. The C rate of a battery is defined as the current load that will discharge the battery in 1 hour. Your 800mAh cell phone battery can deliver 800mA for 1 hour then it's dead. So 0.8A would be a C rate of 1 for that battery. A discharge rate of 1.6 A would be a 2C rate. Most li-ion batteries can handle discharge rates of 2 or more C. However, they typically don't like a charge rate of more than 1.2C and less if the cells are big. However, the batteries in the Volt aren't exactly the same as a cell phone battery so they might have different max charge and discharge C rates.

wstander

08-14-2009, 09:58 AM

culver

08-14-2009, 10:14 AM

Basically all the hybrids limit the batteries to that 30-85% window (I was calling it 70% because I didn't recall the actual range). By never fully charging or discharging the batteries you get a lot more life out of them.

Dino Scuderia

08-14-2009, 10:52 AM

According to the article in Wikipedia, the batteries discharge only to 30% and even on plug-in recharge, only charge up to 85%...

That article also quotes a GM engineer as stating that the Volt will have a 640+ mile range on combined EV and gasoline-generator power....(!?)

Try this:

How Charging of the Battery Works in the Chevy Volt | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site (http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/27/how-charging-of-the-battery-works-in-the-chevy-volt/)

cargirl1990

08-14-2009, 11:50 AM

how about VVT or CVT's?

culver

08-14-2009, 12:55 PM

how about VVT or CVT's?

Aside from trying to up your post count, what was your question?

cargirl1990

08-14-2009, 09:09 PM

Aside from trying to up your post count, what was your question?

Variable Valve Timing and Continuous Variable Transmission. are those just as good to be fuel efficicient?

G35COUPE

08-14-2009, 10:14 PM

Variable Valve Timing and Continuous Variable Transmission. are those just as good to be fuel efficicient?

As far as i know, not sure, VVT does help with mpg, but i don't think its as effective as having a direct injection system. As for CVT, Nissan had them in their car line ups and they are very good, in terms of driving experience. I am not sure how it affects mpg. However, Nissan does not seem to use the CVT technology in their Infiniti line up. And yet, the transmission in the 7-speed transmissions of the infinitis are as good or even better than the CVTs.

cargirl1990

08-14-2009, 11:31 PM

As far as i know, not sure, VVT does help with mpg, but i don't think its as effective as having a direct injection system. As for CVT, Nissan had them in their car line ups and they are very good, in terms of driving experience. I am not sure how it affects mpg. However, Nissan does not seem to use the CVT technology in their Infiniti line up. And yet, the transmission in the 7-speed transmissions of the infinitis are as good or even better than the CVTs.

thanks! i really interested in how CVT's and VVT's work. when ever i think of VVT's, i think of how vavles will shut off at stop and go's, hence the name, as well as helping with fuel economy. that was what my thoughts were. and with CVT's are usually just a one speed tranny, i think, but im not sure how they help with fuel economy.