Gumpert Coming Out of Nowhere!

[PRC777]

Gumpert Apollo Speed sets new Ring record (7:11) - Confirmed! - FastestLaps.com (http://www.fastestlaps.com/article_Gumpert_Apollo_Speed_sets_new_Ring_record_ 7_11_Probably.html)

Alright! One of my favorite cars (I might not ever own...damn college; this better pay off.:() making the best 'ring time of 7:11! I guess this trumps the Viper ACR's 'ring time? Sorry, I don't really have to google it, but I keep hearing from other gearheads that the Viper ACR still has the best track time overall. However, with the upcoming debut of the of the McLaren P11, I'm pretty sure Gumpert's record time will be blown out of the water.

Also, I'm kinda dissappointed that the P11's driver seat isn't centered like the F1. Oh well, maybe McLaren's next supercar will.

[Kitdy]

A few things, first off, I already said this in another thread but the actual production car record is held by the Radical SR8 - it's apparently not street legal in Germany but is in the UK and thus by some accounts people say it's the fastest production car around the 'ring with a time of 6'55" - many outlets seemingly just ignore this fact.

Secondly, the according to what I've read (initial reports) the McLaren P11 is meant to be more of a competitor with the Ferrari RMR V8 series which would probably put it at a bit of a disadvantage when compared to the Apollo's 690 hp (so I read on Wiki - I think I recall a different figure elsewhere). Also, the Apollo only weighs about 2500 lbs so the P11 would need to be an absolute welterweight to undercut the mass of the Apollo and that probably would defeat it's purpose as a 458 challenger. Even if the P11 is exceedingly fast and does manage to beat the Apollo's time (which I highly doubt based on the given information) I don't think it will be blown out of the water.

There are probably a few other cars that actually could blow the Apollo out of the water, for example, the most powerful Ultima GTR, the Caparo T1, and if they are made, the Caterham Levante and Ariel Atom 500. Other than those, I can't think of any other cars that would be able to best this time.

People may complain that were discussing largely meaningless lap times here but I personally find the ongoing 'ring wars/dickwaging contest rather amusing.

[CaesarLeo]

I have to agree. Because of the increasing focus on "Ring" times I can see how these things could become mundane. However, considering that "The Ring" has become widely accepted as the performance benchmark for cars, I feel it's hard not to get caught up in the whole ordeal.

[Roentgen]

It maybe a good car, it maybe a fast car, but it's too ugly to behold, so nobody cares :P

[Lotec_Sirius]

The time of 7:11.5 is 10.6 seconds better than the Viper ACR. Keep in mind the Apollo also holds the Top Gear track record by .2 seconds over the Ascari A10.

The Apollo is one of my favorite cars too BTW.

[NicFromLA]

It maybe a good car, it maybe a fast car, but it's too ugly to behold, so nobody cares :P

Agreed. And it's called a "Gumpert"!

[digitalcraft]

I do find 'ring times basically meaningless when you're considering a car to own and drive, but people care about things like that when they're buying the type of car that boasts their 'ring times.

Besides, it's more meaningful than a horsepower or 0-60 war.

[W.R.]

Am I the only one who likes the purposeful looks of the Gumpert? And thank goodness it's done that lap, it'll shut Nissan up for a few minutes while they fit even stickier tyres to the V-spec. 6:55 is still the record in my eyes (for a road car). Porsche 956 is the ultimate Nurburgod

[clutch-monkey]

it's ugly and has a stupid name and companies really need to stop sending in their own laptimes
as someone said; laptimes are set by real race cars, in real certified events, with official observers and timing equipment/rules.

[Black Edition]

i'm not surprised, gumpert is pretty much a road legal race car in my opinion

[switters78]

The funny thing about "ring lap times" and 0-60 times, etc is that a lot of the people that own these cars probably don't have the skill to reproduce them.

[culver]

So a race car thinly dequised as a road car beats the lap time of a road car with race upgrades and produced by the thousands. What's the point?

[NicFromLA]

Am I the only one who likes the purposeful looks of the Gumpert?

Yes.

I dragged my girlfriend to the LA Autoshow and when she saw the Gumpert she said it was the ugliest thing she's ever seen and that she wouldn't be caught dead in the passenger seat. Then she saw a 430 Scuderia and said, "I love you, but I'd love you more if you drove this car."

[Matra et Alpine]

So a race car thinly dequised as a road car beats the lap time of a road car with race upgrades and produced by the thousands. What's the point?

It IS road legal and I think smart marketing by Radical to DRIVE it from the UK through France and Germany to the 'Ring :) Nobody can say it's not road legel anymore otherwise they'd have been stopped. Nice way to close that line of objection down :)

For all manufacturers the 'Ring times are all about bragging rights and "proving" the underlying capability of the platform they've produced.

If you were buying a car that was equal in ALL aspects to your decision making EXCEPT one was 30 secs faster at the 'Ring, what woudl you do ? :)

[henk4]

Yes.

I dragged my girlfriend to the LA Autoshow and when she saw the Gumpert she said it was the ugliest thing she's ever seen and that she wouldn't be caught dead in the passenger seat. Then she saw a 430 Scuderia and said, "I love you, but I'd love you more if you drove this car."

the reply "yes" to the question asked, rather conflicts with the second part of your post. (Unless you are a bit cynical about your gf's car taste of course)

[henk4]

It IS road legal and I think smart marketing by Radical to DRIVE it from the UK through France and Germany to the 'Ring :) Nobody can say it's not road legel anymore otherwise they'd have been stopped. Nice way to close that line of objection down :)

For all manufacturers the 'Ring times are all about bragging rights and "proving" the underlying capability of the platform they've produced.

If you were buying a car that was equal in ALL aspects to your decision making EXCEPT one was 30 secs faster at the 'Ring, what woudl you do ? :)

I would not be surprised if the number of SR8's produced so far exceeds the number of Apollos...

[Kitdy]

It IS road legal and I think smart marketing by Radical to DRIVE it from the UK through France and Germany to the 'Ring :) Nobody can say it's not road legel anymore otherwise they'd have been stopped. Nice way to close that line of objection down :)

I thought he was referring to the Apollo and Viper, not the SR8 and Apollo.

I also dug the part where they said the drove it - very clever of them to say that.

[culver]

Both the Apollo and SR8 are closer to race car than mass produced automobile. The Viper may be low volume compared to most Chryslers but it is still a full volume production car. It gets no special low volume exceptions from any regulatory body and has to meet all of the normal safety guidelines like airbags and the like.

I think it's great that road legal cars like the Apollo and SR8 can go so fast yet I still look at them as basically race cars that can be made road legal rather than production cars setup as a racing car. I recall someone made a UK legal F3000 car a while back. I wouldn't call that a "production" car even though it was likely produced in larger numbers than the Apollo ever will be.
StreetFire.net - street legal Formel 3 open wheeler race car

Incidentally this road legal Lotus looks interesting:
http://www.xanthos.com/grandprix/images/22side-medium.jpg

[clutch-monkey]

Both the Apollo and SR8 are closer to race car than mass produced automobile. The Viper may be low volume compared to most Chryslers but it is still a full volume production car. It gets no special low volume exceptions from any regulatory body and has to meet all of the normal safety guidelines like airbags and the like.


i agree with this
guidelines for production car should be a bit tighter, although we can all see them for what they actually are i suppose

[Ferrer]

i agree with this
guidelines for production car should be a bit tighter, although we can all see them for what they actually are i suppose
Maybe these should be labelled as the lap record for cars with number plates...

[clutch-monkey]

haha yeah, even if those rego plates are club rego or special allowance rego..

[NicFromLA]

the reply "yes" to the question asked, rather conflicts with the second part of your post. (Unless you are a bit cynical about your gf's car taste of course)

"Yes" as in "Yes, WR, you're the only person who likes the looks of the Gumpert."

[wwgkd]

I'm a little late to the party, but as has been said, it's still slower than the SR8 and comparing it to the Viper isn't real fair since the viper is road legal in the US, and the gumpert isn't.

I always figured that comparing ring times to find the best car is kind of like jello wrestling to find the hottest woman. It may not be the most scientific method but it is fun and rather widely accepted.

[Guibo]

I'm a little late to the party, but as has been said, it's still slower than the SR8 and comparing it to the Viper isn't real fair since the viper is road legal in the US, and the gumpert isn't.

The Viper that ran the 'Ring wasn't in its US road-legal configuration. Not so sure legality-in-the-US is a prerequisite for fairness. The track isn't in the US, after all. Is it fair to compare a car like the Viper, with its adjustable aero and suspension, unforgiving spring rates, MPSC's, and obvious concessions to comfort, against other cars that are far less hardcore and more like other everday cars?

[G35COUPE]

At the end of the day, many real race cars aren't there to look pretty. The Gumpert Apollo has sacrificed some beauty for real race functionality. I beleive the Nissan GTR has this same issue as well. Only God can bring true beauty with true performance. My thinking is that the Gumpert Apollo has done well. So, they have my two-thumbs up. Well done Gumpert.

[P4g4nite]

At the end of the day, many real race cars aren't there to look pretty.
But sometimes when form follows function the results can be fantastic.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SH8texVC3uI/AAAAAAAAyds/A_WjBvuezKY/s400/Jaguar-XJ13-1.jpg


Only God can bring true beauty with true performance.
I totally agree..
http://ideiafix.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/_41118852_ayeaye_pa.jpg

[wwgkd]

The Viper that ran the 'Ring wasn't in its US road-legal configuration. Not so sure legality-in-the-US is a prerequisite for fairness. The track isn't in the US, after all. Is it fair to compare a car like the Viper, with its adjustable aero and suspension, unforgiving spring rates, MPSC's, and obvious concessions to comfort, against other cars that are far less hardcore and more like other everday cars?

That adjustable aero and suspension is from the factory and 100% US street legal. The version they ran is in fact the version sold here that you can drive on the street, despite what fanbois on teh internets are saying (not meaning you, there's a lot of that going around and it's easy to get confused.)

[Badsight]

The funny thing about "ring lap times" and 0-60 times, etc is that a lot of the people that own these cars probably don't have the skill to reproduce them.

that doesnt matter

the ring is a real test of your roadcars performance , woreso than tighter , smoother racetracks

a good ring time holds real weight in saying which is best

[clutch-monkey]

that doesnt matter

the ring is a real test of your roadcars performance , woreso than tighter , smoother racetracks

a good ring time holds real weight in saying which is best
not really
with a track that long it's impossible to differentiate which car is better when the times are within seconds of each other
too many variables.

[pimento]

not really
with a track that long it's impossible to differentiate which car is better when the times are within seconds of each other
too many variables.

Basically you need them all there with the same driver on the same day.. and the driver has to have had the same esperience with them all.. and the day has to be consistant with weather.. and etc, etc, etc. So yea.. only good for general comparo.

Or, get real scientific and run each car 20 (or so) times on different days and take an average.

[clutch-monkey]

good point, if the gumpert is tricky then it may have had a freak lap, lol. the viper might be slower but perhaps it is consistently achieving it's times.

[wwgkd]

good point, if the gumpert is tricky then it may have had a freak lap, lol. the viper might be slower but perhaps it is consistently achieving it's times.

True. I think that's where the longer laps can help a little, but really "the fastest car" is so dependant on specific tracks and drivers and conditions that people are always going to complain about inconsistencies. Still I don't think you'd be short of volunteer drivers for these enduro comparisons.

[Guibo]

That adjustable aero and suspension is from the factory and 100% US street legal. The version they ran is in fact the version sold here that you can drive on the street, despite what fanbois on teh internets are saying (not meaning you, there's a lot of that going around and it's easy to get confused.)
I am not saying the adjustable aero and suspension by themselves are not street legal. I'm saying that components on the splitter as used for the 'Ring test have been deemed illegal in some parts of the US. I'm not going to delve into the federal motor vehicle code, but perhaps there are laws regarding parts of the car extending a certain distance beyond the leading edge of the bumper; these laws could be designed for pedestrian safety purposes.

From the C&D test:
"For the street, [Chrysler engineer Jeff] Reece unbolted the front splitter (illegal for the street, it removes easily with eight bolts and fits under the hatch)..." (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/08q3/chevy_corvette_z06_vs._dodge_viper_srt10_acr_nissa n_gt-r_porsche_911_gt2-comparison_tests/2008_dodge_viper_srt10_acr_page_3)
I would be amazed if C&D came to the conclusion that the splitter was illegal all on their own.

[wwgkd]

I am not saying the adjustable aero and suspension by themselves are not street legal. I'm saying that components on the splitter as used for the 'Ring test have been deemed illegal in some parts of the US. I'm not going to delve into the federal motor vehicle code, but perhaps there are laws regarding parts of the car extending a certain distance beyond the leading edge of the bumper; these laws could be designed for pedestrian safety purposes.

From the C&D test:
"For the street, [Chrysler engineer Jeff] Reece unbolted the front splitter (illegal for the street, it removes easily with eight bolts and fits under the hatch)..." (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/08q3/chevy_corvette_z06_vs._dodge_viper_srt10_acr_nissa n_gt-r_porsche_911_gt2-comparison_tests/2008_dodge_viper_srt10_acr_page_3)
I would be amazed if C&D came to the conclusion that the splitter was illegal all on their own.

Ah, I see what you're saying. That's correct, but it's a little part that comes standard with the car and easily bolts and unbolts. It's not like it's that big, either, it just fills in a little dip in the splitter. Here it is with and without that bolted on. Minor details. :D

[Badsight]

not really
with a track that long it's impossible to differentiate which car is better when the times are within seconds of each other
too many variables.


no

the Ring is a long track & is very bumpy & uneven , it shows real world road ability far better than short tracks

with its length , an easy to push car is going to have a great time & a difficult to drive car is going to have a horrible time

short distances dont show the difference enough

[pimento]

no

the Ring is a long track & is very bumpy & uneven , it shows real world road ability far better than short tracks

with its length , an easy to push car is going to have a great time & a difficult to drive car is going to have a horrible time

short distances dont show the difference enough

The variables don't come from the track, they come from having different drivers, different levels of track knowledge, different weather conditions, all that sort of stuff. As far as the track goes, it would be a good way to show real world ability.. all else being equal.

[clutch-monkey]

The variables don't come from the track, they come from having different drivers, different levels of track knowledge, different weather conditions, all that sort of stuff. As far as the track goes, it would be a good way to show real world ability.. all else being equal.

exactly. it's a ridiculous benchmark. something only the most retarded of benchrest racers use as a valid measurement to distinguish cars that are seconds apart

[wwgkd]

exactly. it's a ridiculous benchmark. something only the most retarded of benchrest racers use as a valid measurement to distinguish cars that are seconds apart

I'll admit that if they're only a couple seconds apart I generally call it a draw, but what do you suggest as a better alternative? Not many track are as well known or respected world wide, so how do you choose which one track will be the benchmark? There's always going to be variables, one car will run much faster (relatively) on a tighter course than a more open course, or vice versa, so saying which car will be fastest on any course by using one course is futile anyways. And judging the "street performance" is also futile since none of the cars being discussed could be run anywhere near their limits on public streets in anything even remotely resembling a safe manner. It's just jello wrestling; an entertaining way of ranking cars that doesn't really decide which one you want to take home.

[Ferrer]

How many people here race cars?

I'm guessing not many. Therefore, what's the point of having the absolute fastest lap time?

[clutch-monkey]

How many people here race cars?

I'm guessing not many.
yup
off the top of my head, track regulars;
Matra
Charged
pokey (i think?)
that viper guy
frederik

that's all i remember for now, out of hundreds of users?

[Ferrer]

yup
off the top of my head, track regulars;
Matra
Charged
pokey (i think?)
that viper guy
frederik

that's all i remember for now, out of hundreds of users?
I meant race, not track. On that basis only Fred and charged AFAIK.

My point is, lap times are for racers. For the rest of us mere mortals they are a bit meaningless.

[clutch-monkey]

I meant race, not track. On that basis only Fred and charged AFAIK.

My point is, lap times are for racers. For the rest of us mere mortals they are a bit meaningless.

that's true. and neither of them are using late model cars either - older, much lighter stuff.

[henk4]

I recently did my first lap around the Ring, it was on my bicycle and it took me 1 hour and about 15 minutes (distance 28 km). There are some quite steep climbs there.

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^^^^^^^ picsorban :)

I also race, hillclimb and rally. Classics mainly, but also a few outings with the RX-8 -- yes including a full on gravel stage !!! yikes :)

I also do some track tuition and have an apartment at the 'Ring.

What relevance are ring times ?
Nowhere near the top of the list of things to have in a car ( road or competition ).
BUT, I think the value of the 'Ring times are

1. Proves the car IS capable and has few vices ( or at least small enough to be surmounted :) )
2. Increases confidence of car for daily use ... why ? Because "proper" 'Ring testing puts on lots of miles stressing suspension and other components, so improviong things for road use.
3. It's great for internet debates :)
4. It attracts drivers to want to bring their cars and see how they do. ( sic. :) )

as said, tho', it's jsut a number and once you get with 10-15 seconds of each other it's moot. If looking at it from a road use persepctive I'd even suggest getting within 1 minute is enough :)

I view it like bhp/litre. An insight into other things but not a true metric.

[clutch-monkey]

I view it like bhp/litre.
that's a good way of putting it.

[wwgkd]

How many people here race cars?

I'm guessing not many. Therefore, what's the point of having the absolute fastest lap time?

For once I have to disagree with you. Most of us will never one one of the better cars on these pages (probably more race than will ever even have a chance of owning a gumpert) but that doesn't mean discussion of the cars is meaningless. Just that you shouldn't go all pistols at dawn over which one is better.


I recently did my first lap around the Ring, it was on my bicycle and it took me 1 hour and about 15 minutes (distance 28 km). There are some quite steep climbs there.

That's class, there. Was that pushing pretty hard or taking it easy? I'm sure you've mentioned it before, but do you compete on a bike or is it just for fun and transportation?


that's a good way of putting it.

Ditto.

[Ferrer]

For once I have to disagree with you. Most of us will never one one of the better cars on these pages (probably more race than will ever even have a chance of owning a gumpert) but that doesn't mean discussion of the cars is meaningless. Just that you shouldn't go all pistols at dawn over which one is better.
I never said we shouldn't discuss cars. I mean this is a car forum what are we supposed to do if we don't discuss cars? :p

My point arguing that a car is better or worse than another because it was some tenths of a second slower in a gruelling 20-mile long track is a bit pointless since we are never going to race those car nor get that close to the edge on public roads.

I prefer a rewarding drive even if it's slower than a fast but gutless one.

[Badsight]

exactly. it's a ridiculous benchmark. something only the most retarded of benchrest racers use as a valid measurement to distinguish cars that are seconds apart

says you

you wont break 8 minutes unless its at least dry . the distance means a slow car is going to really show it in the time - & a fast car is going to really show it in the time . & as far as racetracks go this one is closer to a real road than all the new ones

[G35COUPE]

Most of these cars tested at the ring, do very poorly at speeds below 50 miles per hour or sitting in traffic. These cars have gone feral (claws, snarls, whiskers, fangs, etc).

[clutch-monkey]

says you

you wont break 8 minutes unless its at least dry . the distance means a slow car is going to really show it in the time - & a fast car is going to really show it in the time . & as far as racetracks go this one is closer to a real road than all the new ones

so you're saying the gumpert and radical are perfectly capable on the street? lol.
distance is a good thing yeah, but it's too long in this case, for all the previously mentioned reasons. half the length, or do the jaguar way... test the car on individual segments rather than an overall lap time.
it's the perfect benchrest racers icon...

[whiteballz]

I sort of sit on the fence in the ring - good/bad benchmark situation.

Its a tough challenging circut for car and driver.
And thats where its weakness is.

its so long the differences in drivers and climate makes more of a difference than on any other circut.

[Badsight]

lol
laugh at your own statements much ?

ring times . praising them means to say the car is perfect in every way for the road . or at least thats what clutch-monkey will try putting you down as meaning

[clutch-monkey]

laugh at your own statements much ?

ring times . praising them means to say the car is perfect in every way for the road . or at least thats what clutch-monkey will try putting you down as meaning
:confused:
righto..

I sort of sit on the fence in the ring - good/bad benchmark situation.

Its a tough challenging circut for car and driver.
And thats where its weakness is.

its so long the differences in drivers and climate makes more of a difference than on any other circut.
+1
doesn't make or break a car, despite what some would have you believe :rolleyes:
remember the E46 M3 CSL back in the day - got the same lap time as the F430 or something. Difference was ferrari drove up there and did a few laps, BMW spent weeks there getting the optimal time.

[Matra et Alpine]

Most of these cars tested at the ring, do very poorly at speeds below 50 miles per hour or sitting in traffic. yep and that's what sets apart a sports/performance car ! :)

BEST car at low speeds and traffic is likely one of Fleet's limos !

[clutch-monkey]

i think fleet should take his limo around the 'ring. as a piss take.

[pimento]

Or a diesel Transit?

[G35COUPE]

yep and that's what sets apart a sports/performance car ! :)

BEST car at low speeds and traffic is likely one of Fleet's limos !

I only realized this fact after i bought my 6MT G-35 Coupe. Thats why i have kept my B13 for street useage.

And then the other night, i saw a 2008/2009 M5 cruising along. You won't beleive how much this car rattles, even from the outside. The engine literally has an angry sound at low speeds--its like it is complaining to be at low speeds. The driver had to speed up to let the car breathe normally, and then the sound it made when he sped up was super awesome. I seriously doubt an M5 is comfortable in the inside. it just isn't ralistic to demand power and performance, together with luxury, without paying an arm and a leg.

It is hard to build street useability into a sports car without something giving. :)

[whiteballz]

I agree. An M5 from a few years back. Same time as an E46 I think. Sounded absolutely horrible untill he canned it.

[Ferrer]

I think you can have good driving enjoyment and a bit of comfort. Of course it'll be a compromise, but you can have it if you want.

[wwgkd]

I think you can have good driving enjoyment and a bit of comfort. Of course it'll be a compromise, but you can have it if you want.

Definitely. I'd say the current M3s are luxurious and comfortable, and according to just about everyone who's driven one (unfortunately not me) they're a lot of fun to drive (despite those who complain about theincrease in size.) There's a lot of other cars that fit the bill, too, depending on your standards of comfort and how pure you want your car to be.

[Ferrer]

Definitely. I'd say the current M3s are luxurious and comfortable, and according to just about everyone who's driven one (unfortunately not me) they're a lot of fun to drive (despite those who complain about theincrease in size.) There's a lot of other cars that fit the bill, too, depending on your standards of comfort and how pure you want your car to be.
There are many examples. Many BMWs fit the bill as well as Jags. Grand Tourers, sports saloons and hot hatches are all part of it. They are my favourite cars.

[G35COUPE]

Definitely. I'd say the current M3s are luxurious and comfortable, and according to just about everyone who's driven one (unfortunately not me) they're a lot of fun to drive (despite those who complain about theincrease in size.) There's a lot of other cars that fit the bill, too, depending on your standards of comfort and how pure you want your car to be.

The M3s are great looking and I have never heard a rattle from any M3---I love them. I was taken aback by the truck-like rattle of such a new M5. The angry sound from the M5 I saw was even more angry than the sound of another E55 AMG I came across. For both cars, even at low speeds, when you hear their low end growls, you get the feeling that there is plenty and tons of power under the hood.

[LTSmash]

The M3s are great looking and I hav enver heard a rattle from any M3. I was taken aback by the truck-like rattle of such a new M5.

V10 maybe?

[G35COUPE]

V10 maybe?

Yep! Its a 500 HP, 40 valve, V-10 with 7 speed manual transmission. That would explain the rattles.

[whiteballz]

I meant race, not track. On that basis only Fred and charged AFAIK.

My point is, lap times are for racers. For the rest of us mere mortals they are a bit meaningless.


Somehow I missed this post earlier - My father and I are looking at buying a track car - We're extremely interested in track times - just because we're not in a championship doesn't mean we dont care what time our car could run.

[LTSmash]

My father and I are looking at buying a track car - We're extremely interested in track times - just because we're not in a championship doesn't mean we dont care what time our car could run.

The ultimate father/son bonding right there; screw fly fishing. What are your prospects as of now?

[whiteballz]

I started a thread a while back, cant remember the name of it, its like racing experience or something.

Basically we're extremely interested in a subaru wrx, Type R V-limited.

Its a Japanese import, 2door wrx with STI goodies and a few other special bits. It's 1 of 1000 made and is vastly faster than equivalent WRX's and on par with STI's.

Recently we saw they have dropped the price to 7990 AUD. so we're seriously considering it.

[LTSmash]

Is it RWD?

[whiteballz]

No - There was an option for a variable center diff to divide power up to 90% to the rear. but the car we are looking at skipped that option.

AFAIK no RWD subaru's have ever been made from factory.

[LTSmash]

No - There was an option for a variable center diff to divide power up to 90% to the rear. but the car we are looking at skipped that option.

AFAIK no RWD subaru's have ever been made from factory.

I didn't think so too but when you said track car I* had to ask.

A rally effort in the works then? whiteballz Sr. will read the notes?

[whiteballz]

not for a while. the car in consideration is rally/track use only and track is far cheaper than bringing the car up to rally spec.

basically motorkhana, gymkhana and track days will be the way. (and skidpans)

[pimento]

(and skidpans)

Maccas car park?

[whiteballz]

driver training etc.

[clutch-monkey]

god i hate motorkhana :(
still, i'll give it a try in your car eh ;) :D

[whiteballz]

hell yeah. the WRX club of NSW wet the skidpan for the motorkhanas. Its all about sideways :D