UCP: I need your help

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

Hello again everyone, i cant apologize enough for my ghosting, i cant seem to snap out of it and the forums are as alive as ever. In any case i need help and theres no better place to turn than UCP.

Im writing a paper on "Why all young drivers should be given sports cars." If you dont think so then humor me because its a paper and my next one is arguing against that point. In anycase id like everyone here whos abit more technical with examples or ideas as to why, anything about like the extra safety in sports cars and such, backed with some sort of cite-able study or company press realease. Please keep the off topic banter to a minimum, at least for awhile till we get this thing off the ground. thanks everyone for your help

-CT

[blingbling]

why are you writing a paper on such a trivial issue

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

for my english comp class, making an argument and doing both sides and such. I figure its a fairly bold statement and very easy to argue either side.

[lightweight]

You mean driving on public roads? Or on the controlled environment of a race track?

[Ferrer]

I don't know but off the top of my head sportscars have better active safety. Better handling, brakes and so on. That would make them safer and less prone to have an accident if driven in the same way as a normal car. Some sportscars, like the Lotus Elise, can have relative low maintenance and running costs too.

I can't cite any report or press release though.

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

driving on public roads, like as their day to day cars.

as far as accident avoidance; i have that. the low running cost is a very nice thought tho, thanks ferrer

[TheScrutineer]

Powerful cars are safer than the norm in the hands of a disciplined and skilled driver. You can accelerate away from trouble, overtake easily and swiftly and have much more confidence braking and cornering.

However, in the hands of your average 'young' un-experienced driver the extra power and ability can be very dangerous.

Giving a young driver a moderately powered rear wheel drive vehicle is good in my opinion. They can learn the dynamics of a true sports car with power matched to their experience. Even if they were to buy a front wheel drive car next, their car control would have been improved.

[henk4]

Giving a young driver a moderately powered rear wheel drive vehicle is good in my opinion. They can learn the dynamics of a true sports car with power matched to their experience. Even if they were to buy a front wheel drive car next, their car control would have been improved.

I think we have to first determine what makes a car a "sportscar". At least for the purpose of writing a paper for the uninformed, good definitions are paramount. I take it from the above that "sportscar" and FWD combined in one car are a no-go. I think this needs to be established, supported with evidence, etc etc. (putting myself in the position of somebody who has to judge the quality of a paper).

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

oh no, id consider some fwd cars sports cars acutally, i guess determening a sports car in this case is a car purpose built with going faster than its average counterpart/typical "good starter car" in mind. Ill establish that in the paper but good point henk.

A properly developed and tuned fwd car counts

[G35COUPE]

I hope these two articles help in forming your views about this topic.

Strict rules from parents lead to safer-driving teens - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-09-24-safer-driving-teens_N.htm)


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/world/middleeast/08drift.html

but you must first define what a race car really means, and then start your argument with the general population of cars and then move into race cars.

So, in essence the two points I have are that, giving all young drivers a sportscar should be dependent on the parental involvement in their lives.

The second point is that two theories called "Goal Setting Theory" and "Self-Efficacy Theory", when combined, suggest that people prefer challenging tasks, and they will perform such tasks if they beleive they can actually perform it. Young drivers love the challenge of doing something challenging and each one of them beleives that they can drive a sports car well. Check WIKI for more on these theories and then decide for yourself how young drivers see themselves and why they do what they do.

I hope this is helpful. :)

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

It is helpful thankyou, my views are fairly set. This is more of a propaganda paper for the sake of an A. (worthy cause i hope youll agree) so i cant weight back and forth i have to present a one sided argument. And i greatly apprecaite the links G35, not to mention your name lol

[G35COUPE]

It is helpful thankyou, my views are fairly set. This is more of a propaganda paper for the sake of an A. (worthy cause i hope youll agree) so i cant weight back and forth i have to present a one sided argument. And i greatly apprecaite the links G35, not to mention your name lol


You are welcome. We are glad to be of assistance to you. :)

[Ferrer]

oh no, id consider some fwd cars sports cars acutally, i guess determening a sports car in this case is a car purpose built with going faster than its average counterpart/typical "good starter car" in mind. Ill establish that in the paper but good point henk.

A properly developed and tuned fwd car counts
So is a hot hatch a sportscar?

Or for isntance, a BMW has excellent driving characteristics over, say a Renault. Would that count as a sportscar as well?

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

Id say a hot hatch would have to count but not any bmw, its not so much a car with superior driving characteristics as it is one that was developed with going faster and being low slung as its primary design objectives

[clutch-monkey]

pro; sportscars in general have less safety nets (well, the good ones anyway) and if the bet way to learn to drive as a youngster is without any aids at all; if they crash, so be it, you'll bet they will be more cautious the next time.

cons: whilst you can crash at any car at say 100mph, it does take you a lot less time to get there in a sportscar, hence you could concievably hit that speed more often in a spotscar were you that way inclined.

[Cotterik]

give them/us sports cars so we can stop pretending our cars are sportscars and do things our cars cant handle and spin off the road into innocent old ladies / lamp posts.

[whiteballz]

Sports cars pros -
Increased driver training - perhaps include theoretical manditory courses for cars above a set power/weight ratio.

damage
- Include the point that if something is exclusive/a point of pride (like a nice phone or car) alot of people will treat it with alot of respect.

- While the risk of a youthful driver to floor it wherever he goes is higher - the safety surrounding that car is much higher than in a much smaller/older car. better tyres, brakes, electric assists, like ESC and TCS with ABS.

- If possible include that a while ago over here Toyota debuted a car that depending on what key you used to turn it on - Would supply different amounts of power/torque. So parents give their kids the key with the least power - great looks, but less power than fully allowed.

[CHEESE-TACULAR]

- If possible include that a while ago over here Toyota debuted a car that depending on what key you used to turn it on - Would supply different amounts of power/torque. So parents give their kids the key with the least power - great looks, but less power than fully allowed.

that is the coolest thing, link me to anything about it?

[whiteballz]

Toyota Sportivo Coupe Concept : News & Reports : Motoring : Web Wombat (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/melb04_2.htm)


Toyota Sportivo Coupe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



2004 Toyota Sportivo Images, Information and History | Conceptcarz.com (http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z7881/default.aspx)

[pimento]

My uncle had the idea that all new drivers should be on a motorbike for a year. 'Snot a bad idea.. most of them will learn to pay attention to everying going on around them and more of the idiots will be removed from the gene pool.

[wwgkd]

A sports car (and sports car's don't have to be power monsters, look at a Miata) could be considered safer in a couple ways I could think of. Some have already been stated, such as accident avoidance. But kind of an extension of that is that a car that can drive at 150 is going to be much better able to handle the driver doing something slightly stupid at 60 than a car that can only safely go 60.

Plus a car like that leads to greater driver awareness for what's going on. If you don't have the power to spin the tires then you're much more likely to floor it every where you go (see a lot of civic drivers doing that and not many viper drivers.) The first time you don't have traction (say first rain in a while and the roads are really slick) then that bad habit and lack of awareness of how a car will respond at the limits can bite you in the @ss.

Of course there's easier passing, and much shorter emergency braking. An example of the braking was that once I was going through sacramento in my dad's truck (****ing hate the drivers there) on my way to pick up a trailer when traffic slowed down pretty quickly and I had to brake hard. Some idiot in a little geo decided that was the perfect time to cut into my lane and I had to stomp on the brakes hard to keep from rolling right over him (have no idea how I didn't hit him.) The 911 behind me that had been tailgaiting ended up stopping 15 feet further back than me despite having no warning and less space to stop than me; where I could have been in an accident, he was never in any danger at all. Brakes being one of the most important safety devices on a car, it makes sense the lighter weight and better brakes of a sports car would be much safer. Emergency lane change is a common saftey test, and one that's usually dominated by sports cars.

When all is said and done I'd much rather avoid an accident through greater awareness and abilities (both mine and the vehicles) than try to live through it. Remember that someone who's going to drive like an idiot will probably drive likethat in anything, so I'm not so sure that a sports car really encourages that since most real sports cars I see (vette's vipers, lambo's , ferraris, porsches) all drive safely while it's the schmucks in civics and infiniti G35s that are trying to take themselves out of the gene pool.

[henk4]

So is a hot hatch a sportscar?

Or for isntance, a BMW has excellent driving characteristics over, say a Renault. Would that count as a sportscar as well?
I see where you are coming from, but giving the universal praise the hot Megane versions get in the roadholding department, you comparison might not be totally correct. You could have used Citroen in stead as an example.
Anyway, I don't think it is a good idea to give a (any) BMW to a young driver, before subjecting them to a closed circuit test, with the ESP switched off, to learn them to control oversteer.

[TheScrutineer]

I think you can certainly call a FWD car sporty, and their of plenty of good handling FWD cars. In fact, I'm trading my BMW in for a Focus ST170 at the moment! :p Lets remember most of the field of the prestigious British Touring Car Championship are FWD cars.

However, being a massive RWD fan I would say that RWD is the true 'sports' configuration and any driving enthusiast should own a RWD car once in their life. I would never consider spending £10,000+ on anything FWD and with less than 200hp EVER! :o Unless I had kids.

*two years time in a Renault Scenic diesel with screaming kids in the back :D

Sorry to go off topic

[Ferrer]

I see where you are coming from, but giving the universal praise the hot Megane versions get in the roadholding department, you comparison might not be totally correct. You could have used Citroen in stead as an example.
Anyway, I don't think it is a good idea to give a (any) BMW to a young driver, before subjecting them to a closed circuit test, with the ESP switched off, to learn them to control oversteer.
I know hot Renaults are excellent, I just picked a brand at random.

What I meant is that for instance, in the BMW I can be inch perfect, especially at high speed. However it is a car that encourages you to drive fast. The Lancia is much less precise in that aspect, so it encourages you to drive slower. So in this case what would be the "safer" car for a young driver?

I agree completely on the closed racetrack lessons, they should be mandatory to have your license everywhere in the world in my opinion. I think that currently, at least here, they only teach you how to go from point A to point B without braking the law, they don't teach you how to drive.

PD I can relate to Scenic madness, I drove a Mk I 1.6 ages ago. It was fun, in a way... :p

[henk4]

I think that currently, at least here, they only teach you how to go from point A to point B without braking the law, they don't teach you how to drive.

Using the navigation system overhere has also become an intrinsic part of the drivers test....which of course is much more important than being able to handle a car.

[Ferrer]

Using the navigation system overhere has also become an intrinsic part of the drivers test....which of course is much more important than being able to handle a car.
What if you don't have satnav on your car...

I still remember a Top Gear episode where they showed that finnish learners were teaches to powerslide, brake and drive in difficult conditions before they were allowed on publics roads. That should be done everywhere.

[henk4]

What if you don't have satnav on your car...

Irrelevant, because you do not pass your exam in your own car.

[whiteballz]

That works two ways does it not? Over here you pass in your own vehicle.

[henk4]

That works two ways does it not? Over here you pass in your own vehicle.

how can you own/drive a vehicle if you don't have a license?

[whiteballz]

In australia we dont need an instructor to teach us, a documented amount of hours (varies state to state) with a fully licenced driver teaching you is all you need to pass your learners (as well as a final test with the tester)

[henk4]

In australia we dont need an instructor to teach us, a documented amount of hours (varies state to state) with a fully licenced driver teaching you is all you need to pass your learners (as well as a final test with the tester)
I am really surprised. I assume that also in your country car insurance is mandatory, and here you can only get insurance on your car if you have a license.

[Ferrer]

In australia we dont need an instructor to teach us, a documented amount of hours (varies state to state) with a fully licenced driver teaching you is all you need to pass your learners (as well as a final test with the tester)


I am really surprised. I assume that also in your country car insurance is mandatory, and here you can only get insurance on your car if you have a license.
I think that in France something similar happens (happened?).

[whiteballz]

I am really surprised. I assume that also in your country car insurance is mandatory, and here you can only get insurance on your car if you have a license.

Correct yes, CTP (compulsory third party) or the "greenslip" is required to get the car onto the road, but you dont need a licence to get a greenslip.

[henk4]

I think that in France something similar happens (happened?).
In France you get a license and you have to drive with an "A" on the rear of your car for the first year, indicating that you are new to the sport, and that you for instance are not allowed to exceed 110 kph.

[Ferrer]

In France you get a license and you have to drive with an "A" on the rear of your car for the first year, indicating that you are new to the sport, and that you for instance are not allowed to exceed 110 kph.
Yes but IIRC while undertaking the driving lessons with an instructor you can also do a certain number of kilometres with a designated tutor (usually your father, mother,...) to help you pass the test easier and sooner.

[henk4]

Correct yes, CTP (compulsory third party) or the "greenslip" is required to get the car onto the road, but you dont need a licence to get a greenslip.
how generous of the insurance companies....but whatever, you are therefore allowed to drive it on the road without a license?

[henk4]

Yes but IIRC while undertaking the driving lessons with an instructor you can also do a certain number of kilometres with a designated tutor (usually your father, mother,...) to help you pass the test easier and sooner.
even without having double brakes?

[LeonOfTheDead]

isn't it the same in the States?
We were checking the prices comparing Italy to California for the girlfriend, and while here I payed about 400/500 € for my license, keeping the driving school to a minimum to save money as I already knew how to drive (and knew the rules as well), in California (or States side for what that it matters) it would costs about...35 $.

It was possible to use your own car even here until double pedals for the practicing/exam car became mandatory.
EDIT: you can still practice with a private car and a tutor with 10 years of license, with a huge "P" attached to the rear and a few limitations as well (like no motorway, but that's even with the driving school).

[Ferrer]

even without having double brakes?
I think so. I don't know the exact rules, but maybe you had to undertake a number of lessons before being allowed in a car without double controls. I'm sure french members can be much more precise than me with this.

[clutch-monkey]

how generous of the insurance companies....but whatever, you are therefore allowed to drive it on the road without a license?

as long as someone with an 'open' license is in the passenger seat, yes. don't need an instructor. and have to display L plates and the like

[henk4]

I think so. I don't know the exact rules, but maybe you had to undertake a number of lessons before being allowed in a car without double controls. I'm sure french members can be much more precise than me with this.
possibly, in the mean time we have ran away from the thread topic quite a bit....

[henk4]

as long as someone with an 'open' license is in the passenger seat, yes. don't need an instructor. and have to display L plates and the like

OK, so the car can be fully registered on your name without having a license? (having a license is mandatory here to be allowed to register a car in your name, as you will be liable for road tax)

[clutch-monkey]

yes, you can have a car registered in your name without having a license, before you're even of eligible age for a license, etc etc, and you can insure it too (but not for you driving it, if you're driving completely unlicensed so to speak, learners are allowed)

[G35COUPE]

A sports car (and sports car's don't have to be power monsters, look at a Miata) could be considered safer in a couple ways I could think of. Some have already been stated, such as accident avoidance. But kind of an extension of that is that a car that can drive at 150 is going to be much better able to handle the driver doing something slightly stupid at 60 than a car that can only safely go 60.

Plus a car like that leads to greater driver awareness for what's going on. If you don't have the power to spin the tires then you're much more likely to floor it every where you go (see a lot of civic drivers doing that and not many viper drivers.) The first time you don't have traction (say first rain in a while and the roads are really slick) then that bad habit and lack of awareness of how a car will respond at the limits can bite you in the @ss.

Of course there's easier passing, and much shorter emergency braking. An example of the braking was that once I was going through sacramento in my dad's truck (****ing hate the drivers there) on my way to pick up a trailer when traffic slowed down pretty quickly and I had to brake hard. Some idiot in a little geo decided that was the perfect time to cut into my lane and I had to stomp on the brakes hard to keep from rolling right over him (have no idea how I didn't hit him.) The 911 behind me that had been tailgaiting ended up stopping 15 feet further back than me despite having no warning and less space to stop than me; where I could have been in an accident, he was never in any danger at all. Brakes being one of the most important safety devices on a car, it makes sense the lighter weight and better brakes of a sports car would be much safer. Emergency lane change is a common saftey test, and one that's usually dominated by sports cars.

When all is said and done I'd much rather avoid an accident through greater awareness and abilities (both mine and the vehicles) than try to live through it. Remember that someone who's going to drive like an idiot will probably drive likethat in anything, so I'm not so sure that a sports car really encourages that since most real sports cars I see (vette's vipers, lambo's , ferraris, porsches) all drive safely while it's the schmucks in civics and infiniti G35s that are trying to take themselves out of the gene pool.

Why the hating and prejudice of G-35s?? First of all, its not on the same league as any civic, stock for stock, and corvettes owners love to run with G-35s, for reasons I have not figured out yet. What has the G-35 done to you this beautiful day? :D

Hear ye, hear ye, one day you are gonna own a G-35 and you are gonna love it like a wife. :)

Oh my beautiful G, do not listen to WWGKD. What God has brought together, let no man put asunder. Thats right!