The best sorts of cars for young drivers [Archive]

group c n b man

10-10-2009, 03:39 PM

The world of obtaining car insurance at a reasonable price for 17 year olds is a daunting idea. I think that mandatory advanced driving courses could make other young drivers more aware of the hazards. However, my theory is that the insurance companies and government are doing the wrong thing. By only making it feasible for young drivers to drive hopelessly cheap, small and slow cars, the chances of accidents are higher.
Consider this. If you give someone a slow car, then all they are going to do is try and make it go faster with hard driving and amateurish mods. This is the attitude that most will have probably :

"My car only has a tiny engine therefore I can drive as fast and hard as possible and still nothing bad can happen because it's so slow and rubbish. If I do crash severely then it's no problem ; I'll just get another since it only costs a grand or two"

This promotes irresponsible and dangerous driving. On the other hand, if young drivers were able to drive fast, large and expensive cars then this would be the attitude :

"I am in control of a nice piece of machinery here, therefore I better be careful because this car has the potential to be dangerous if I over step the mark and my driving ability. If this were to be written off then I wouldn't be able to get another for cheap money, so I better not make any risky or rash decisions. I'll need to drive more conservatively"

This promotes responsible and safe driving while still providing thrills when safe to do so. I hope you read this, BLASTED insurance companies and use your brains a bit more

andreslom

10-10-2009, 09:04 PM

Mmmm, I dont think so. I live in Mexico and the insurance for a 17 year old is the same as a 40 year old person so you buy what you can afford, and trust me there are a lot more accidents with the more powerful cars among guys my age.

jump15vc

10-10-2009, 10:52 PM

Dude, definitely not. im 21 and i dont think i know anyone that would drive slower and more carefully in a bigger, faster, nicer car. That just doesnt make sense to me, nor would it to most people i know. since i got my license ive had 2 suvs (aviator(still have it) and mountaineer(gone)) and ive since moved on to my 350z. I obviously drive the z faster and more aggressively than i do in the aviator and to a greater extent, the mountaineer. but it has nothing to do with the price of the car, its just that the z goes faster and is much more fun to be driven fast. obviously the lincoln wasnt designed for fast driving but my point is that people are going to drive faster in a more expensive, more powerful car. i really wish that insurance was cheaper for people in my demographic, but for financial, rather than safety reasons. i dont think i know anyone my age that would be guilt tripped into driving slower in a more expensive, faster car. im pretty certain it would end up having the opposite effect.

clutch-monkey

10-10-2009, 11:44 PM

haha i can just imagine what would happen if i had my current car when i was that young. hell i already managed to crash a VN commodore at that age, all 132kw of it

Roentgen

10-11-2009, 12:57 AM

Safe, economical, and at least 4 doors for your mates. Basically a typical family car would be good for most young people.

W.R.

10-11-2009, 02:47 AM

Young drivers should be made to drive the scariest, most unpredictable and downright dangerous cars, so they're forced to drive sensibly or end up very dead.

Matra et Alpine

10-11-2009, 02:53 AM

The comaprison of "tiny engine" and "nice machinery" doesn't waork in the OP as it's taken from two different personal perspectives.

Give the "nice" car to the idiot and he/she will curb it, scratch it, crash it, abuse it.
Give the "tiny engine" car to an enthusiast and he/she will learn car control, maintenance and an understanding of what type of car they enjoy most and what limits it has and their ability to cope with it at those limits.

As with motorbikes, I always recommend getting "enough power" to learn but not too much to get into trouble faster than you have the skills to get out of it.
It's not a marriage, nothing stops us chaning cars every year so 2-3 years after getting a license then a 2nd hand performance car is then somethgin that the owners is skilled enough in to know the limits.

A good handling, low-ish power car is fine. A Smart roadster coupe manages twisties roads around south of Birmingham faster than a Mazda RX-8 with 3 times the power !
First hand experience :)

First cars shoudl be ones with few vices - be they mechanical, electrical, handling, performance or "image" ( NOBODY shoudl drive a City Rover :) )

The UK situation is cr@p as they ASSUME that all young drivers are a high risk because OTHER young drivers crash cars. All "guilty" of bad driving when given a driving license :)
Tough :(

However, there is a chink in that armour. Kit car clubs negotiate insurance and there the assumption is the owner is an enthusiast and looks after the car, cherishes it and less likely to claim. So get a kit car ( no not a Caterham R500 :) ) !!

henk4

10-11-2009, 03:26 AM

It's not a marriage, nothing stops us changing cars every year so 2-3 years after getting a license then a 2nd hand performance car is then something that the owners is skilled enough in to know the limits.

Let me just sit and think about a second hand performance woman.....;)

Ferrer

10-11-2009, 04:43 AM

Give the "tiny engine" car to an enthusiast and he/she will learn car control, maintenance and an understanding of what type of car they enjoy most and what limits it has and their ability to cope with it at those limits.
This.

Learning to drive fast in a slow car makes you a much better driver than learning to drive fast in a fast car. Driving fast a powerful car is easy, just press the right pedal a little bit further. Driving fast a slow car is an art, you learn to keep momentum, changing gear to keep the engine in its sweet spot, etc. Also if you overdo it, and you will, the consequences in a slow car are far less dangerous than in a fast one.

henk4

10-11-2009, 04:45 AM

This.

Learning to drive fast in a slow car makes you a much better driver than learning to drive fast in a fast car. Driving fast a powerful car is easy, just press the right pedal a little bit further. Driving fast a slow car is an art, you learn to keep momentum, changing gear to keep the engine in its sweet spot, etc. Also if you overdo it, and you will, the consequences in a slow car are far less dangerous than in a fast one.

my formation years were in a rear engined, rear driven Fiat 850 Coupe, with a whopping 47 BHP. Wow, have I become good.....
:)

group c n b man

10-11-2009, 05:46 AM

Young drivers should be made to drive the scariest, most unpredictable and downright dangerous cars, so they're forced to drive sensibly or end up very dead.

At last, someone who shares my point of view. If only more people of power would see it our way!

group c n b man

10-11-2009, 05:49 AM

This.

Learning to drive fast in a slow car makes you a much better driver than learning to drive fast in a fast car. Driving fast a powerful car is easy, just press the right pedal a little bit further. Driving fast a slow car is an art, you learn to keep momentum, changing gear to keep the engine in its sweet spot, etc. Also if you overdo it, and you will, the consequences in a slow car are far less dangerous than in a fast one.

Don't think it makes much difference. Every week here in the UK you read about road deaths with slow and small cars. You can't be more dead by crashing a fast car. Besides, bigger cars offer more protection in heavy shunts than smaller ones. The cars are heavier, more space between the driver and the panels, more airbags etc. Big cars are just safer, end of.

Ferrer

10-11-2009, 06:57 AM

Don't think it makes much difference. Every week here in the UK you read about road deaths with slow and small cars. You can't be more dead by crashing a fast car. Besides, bigger cars offer more protection in heavy shunts than smaller ones. The cars are heavier, more space between the driver and the panels, more airbags etc. Big cars are just safer, end of.
But, if you are in twisty country lane going fo it in you 60bhp supermini you may crash at 40mph. In a 200bhp hot hatch you'll be crashing at double that. Also it isn't the same trying to control a slide at 40mph than at 80mph.

Matra et Alpine

10-11-2009, 10:03 AM

drakkie

10-11-2009, 02:34 PM

group c'n'b .... bigger cars do worse on Scottish twisties !
Small cars can steer and brake out of trouble that big cars plough threw :(

More people survive incidents by AVOIDING the crash than those who survive the crash :)

Absolutely true. On the twisty roads in the area here I outran big cars often in my 60hp Fiesta. On the straights they blazed past though.

In my own experience, a small car is best for starters. 9/10 kids feel as proud of the Alto / Corsa / Fiesta / korean shit-box as they do later of their bigger cars. Most will be careful, especially if they paid for it themselves. This went for me anyway..
The rich kids in the 5-series their mummy bought them crash all the time around here. There used to be this kid that totaled 5 cars in 2 weeks time here, all vehicles in the 3/5-series price range.

For myself I have always been very careful. I tried to find the limits of all my cars, however on a abandoned parking lot at night. Worst that could happen was hitting a sand wall or a rabbit. IMO this made me a better driver and made the challenge of finding them on the road obsolete.

I did crash my car though, this week, on a slippery road. Totalled.

jcp123

10-11-2009, 03:39 PM

Front wheel drive. Hatchback.

clutch-monkey

10-11-2009, 03:44 PM

Don't think it makes much difference. Every week here in the UK you read about road deaths with slow and small cars.
so quite clearly they'll find a way to crash no matter what the car, rather it be an expendable hatchback then a good car.

f6fhellcat13

10-11-2009, 04:44 PM

The cmcpokey route; asthmatic RWD pickup.
No weight on the rears teaches good throttle control, lack of frills keeps you focused, and a crappy engine forces you to manages your speed much better.

pimento

10-11-2009, 07:20 PM

The cmcpokey route; asthmatic RWD pickup.
No weight on the rears teaches good throttle control, lack of frills keeps you focused, and a crappy engine forces you to manages your speed much better.

And if it's anything like the one I had at first, shitty brakes that will lock the fronts up really rather easily.. so you gotta stay on the ball and make sure you don't need em.

cmcpokey

10-11-2009, 07:23 PM

The cmcpokey route; asthmatic RWD pickup.
No weight on the rears teaches good throttle control, lack of frills keeps you focused, and a crappy engine forces you to manages your speed much better.

lol... thanks for remembering me, and not forcing me to reiterate it.

group c n b man

10-15-2009, 11:32 AM

Young drivers should be made to drive the scariest, most unpredictable and downright dangerous cars, so they're forced to drive sensibly or end up very dead.

Something fast but with unpredictable, lairy and scary handling. Good examples include : old 911s, Ferrari 360, Jag XJ220, Renaultsport Clio V6.:D

jcp123

10-15-2009, 12:12 PM

Young drivers should be made to drive the scariest, most unpredictable and downright dangerous cars, so they're forced to drive sensibly or end up very dead.

Pretty much the route I took when I got a '68 Mustang at age 17. Taught me a lot about driving judiciously. The fact that I put a lot of work into that car helped, I didn't want to wreck it.

LeonOfTheDead

10-15-2009, 12:52 PM

The list of young drivers dead after dad bought them the something fast and also too expensive is pretty long.
I can speak of Mini Cooper S, 1 Series, A3, Seat Cupras and so on.
You're not going to learn something from a car you didn't pay and that you don't respect.
That applies to an old Ford Fiesta as well, but generally, with a more expensive and fast car, they died in stupider ways, with all due respect.

Last year, a Modenese businesman let his just-licensed son (18) his Maserati 4200 GT.
The guy quickly went to meet three friends to share the event.
They were all dead a few minutes later.

Family's friends had the son dead after his father bough him a Cooper S, a relative of mine keeps crushing the cars my uncle keeps buying him (expensive and fast cars of course), and he always managed to walk away from the accident.

I'm pretty sure someone else died driving his Daihatsu Cuore after he just got the license.
Heck, I almost had my neck broken riding on my scooter because of damn wet white stripe on the tarmac.

The point is, it isn't the car that can save you or teach you something, it's all about your brain.

group c n b man

10-15-2009, 02:57 PM

Most deaths here in the UK are in the typical small cars that I hate so much. Mainly Peugeot 206s, Corsas, old fiestas, and the rest are to blame. A few of the rich ones have Corsa VXRs which their dads probably bought them. In the UK, the Corsa VXR is like the ultimate "ned/chav/boyracer" mobile. Probably quite a nice little car but the audience which it appeals to ruins it's image. 190bhp 1st car... Now were talking.

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 03:59 PM

I had 170bhp in my first car and I didn't crash or die. Horspeower has nothing to do with sutpidity. If you can't drive you are going to have an accident regardless of having 60 or 600bhp.

LeonOfTheDead

10-15-2009, 04:17 PM

I had 170bhp in my first car and I didn't crash or die. Horspeower has nothing to do with sutpidity. If you can't drive you are going to have an accident regardless of having 60 or 600bhp.

Good summary.

I never had a car of my own, but my parents always let me drive whatever car was available at home, being the Clio (54 bhp), the 156 (105 bhp), the Phedra (128-136 bhp), the Stilo (115 bhp) or the Croma (150 bhp).
I had the pleasure to pass all my practicing period with the 156, but I can't really say it's excellent handling and feeling helped me how to properly know how to drive. It was even it's relative lack of power, as I saw with my own eyes a guy crashing really stupidly with a Lancia Y (82 bhp), while just starting moving the car, but in the direction of a road sign.
Perhaps with 100.000 bhp the car would have just spin and avoid the sign, or perhaps with 1 bhp the car would have turned off.

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 04:23 PM

Good summary.

I never had a car of my own, but my parents always let me drive whatever car was available at home, being the Clio (54 bhp), the 156 (105 bhp), the Phedra (128-136 bhp), the Stilo (115 bhp) or the Croma (150 bhp).
I had the pleasure to pass all my practicing period with the 156, but I can't really say it's excellent handling and feeling helped me how to properly know how to drive. It was even it's relative lack of power, as I saw with my own eyes a guy crashing really stupidly with a Lancia Y (82 bhp), while just starting moving the car, but in the direction of a road sign.
Perhaps with 100.000 bhp the car would have just spin and avoid the sign, or perhaps with 1 bhp the car would have turned off.
Of course overdoing it in a million horsepowers cars is potentially more dangerous than a supermini with two horses for reasons we've already underlined. But I think that far more important than that is knowing where and when to brake, turn and accelerate and that a 60km/h corner is a 60km/h corner, no matter wheter you drive a Ferrari or a Fiat.

cmcpokey

10-15-2009, 04:24 PM

no matter wheter you drive a Ferrari or a Fiat.

redundancy?

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 04:28 PM

redundancy?
What I meant is that some people think that because they have a high performance car they can do a million in every corner. And that just isn't the case. Nor is the case that a performance car is going to solve everything for you and that is going to make you a super driver automatically.

LeonOfTheDead

10-15-2009, 04:44 PM

redundancy?

More than what you think...or even less.

Just wait a few years and you could say that of Maserati.
The next gen QP will be/is more Ferrari than Fiat, could be different for the GranTurismo replacement.

clutch-monkey

10-15-2009, 04:47 PM

whiteballz

10-15-2009, 05:07 PM

i crashed with 170hp lol, i don't know what that says about me :D

You were in a commodore, the car was trying to commit suicide.

pimento

10-15-2009, 05:11 PM

Hang on.. are you guys talking about learning to drive a car on a race track or on the public roads? It doesn't matter how much power you have if you're going to drive like a moron, you're still going to have a crash and potentially kill yourself or someone else. Sure, have a bit of fun on an empty road with plenty of visibility but in a daily driving situation it really doesn't matter what you have. I know I'm being a wet blanket but it really shits me to see young drivers hooning about, regardless of what they're in.. especially now that I'm a bikist and one wayward youth cocking about is enough to kill me.

whiteballz

10-15-2009, 05:13 PM

You signed your temporary citizen papers then?

I'm a firm believer in that there is no "safe" speeding on public roads. But I DO believe that you can minimise the risk.

pimento

10-15-2009, 05:20 PM

You signed your temporary citizen papers then?

I'm a firm believer in that there is no "safe" speeding on public roads. But I DO believe that you can minimise the risk.

Well, I have my organ doner card.. I mean bike license.

Agreed, there is risk minimisation. Unfortunately there's too many people who don't get this, so we end up with a 'war on speed' to prevent them from their unsafe driving. Only they don't police it well enough to prevent people from weaving through traffic on busy motorways and whatnot. Damn young'uns, ruining it for the rest of us..

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 05:23 PM

Well, I have my organ doner card.. I mean bike license.

Agreed, there is risk minimisation. Unfortunately there's too many people who don't get this, so we end up with a 'war on speed' to prevent them from their unsafe driving. Only they don't police it well enough to prevent people from weaving through traffic on busy motorways and whatnot. Damn young'uns, ruining it for the rest of us..
Tailgating, not using the indicators, undertaking,... Young ones (and not so young ones) do it. It's very dangerous indeed. I don't understand why the don't realise the danger they are creating with this sort of behaviour.

whiteballz

10-15-2009, 05:25 PM

pimento

10-15-2009, 05:27 PM

undertaking is fine by me, If someones sitting in the right hand land and not moving left I'm going under and past. F*ck sitting behind mum and her three kids hogging the highway in their 4wd heading into the city.

Yea, hogging the inside lane while the outsides are free is worse than undertaking to pass them. I hate people who do that.

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 05:28 PM

undertaking is fine by me, If someones sitting in the right hand land and not moving left I'm going under and past. F*ck sitting behind mum and her three kids hogging the highway in their 4wd heading into the city.
I prefer to either wait patiently or flash the lights. Since I drive quite fast I take those other rules very seriously and always obey them.

clutch-monkey

10-15-2009, 05:29 PM

I'm a firm believer in that there is no "safe" speeding on public roads. But I DO believe that you can minimise the risk.
yeah there are too many variables on the roads that it becomes a risk. but then our speed limits are rdiculously conservative, and more of a suggestion really...like wearing pants

undertaking is fine by me, If someones sitting in the right hand land and not moving left I'm going under and past. F*ck sitting behind mum and her three kids hogging the highway in their 4wd heading into the city.

x2
undertaking is fine so long as it's not sudden, and other people are aware

pimento

10-15-2009, 05:30 PM

whiteballz

10-15-2009, 05:30 PM

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 05:34 PM

Nope, If I'm on the highway and traveling fast I keep the headlights on, and my car is low/stiff enough to bounce the headlights into their mirrors.

If they were competent drivers they would move left long before I undertake them.
I'm also lights on whenever I'm outside urban areas (except in the BMW and Lancia which have daytime running lights). It's not about seeing, but about being seen. Especially if you drive fast.

Ferrer

10-15-2009, 05:35 PM

Unfortunately, the sort of person hogging up the inside lane is often the sort of person who is an idiot and would take being flashed at badly and probably hit the brakes or something stupid like that.
It's always an idiot in a Citroën Saxo which thinks is more manly but he is going as fast as a BMW in the fast lane. Because he is doing 110km/h and no one can get past.

whiteballz

10-15-2009, 05:37 PM

Careful- That sounds dangerously close to sex-spec drivers rationale... (be seen)

I learnt to drive in my mums liberty wagon, safest and most reliable damned thing in the world. Moved up into my old silvia after 6 months with my licence. Spun the silvia once, and that was while I was drifting in the wet - On a rural backroad.

clutch-monkey

10-15-2009, 05:39 PM

I'm also lights on whenever I'm outside urban areas (except in the BMW and Lancia which have daytime running lights). It's not about seeing, but about being seen. Especially if you drive fast.
having dirty great big stripes down the middle of the car and steam coming off your front brakes also works...

Careful- That sounds dangerously close to sex-spec drivers rationale... (be seen)

I learnt to drive in my mums liberty wagon, safest and most reliable damned thing in the world. Moved up into my old silvia after 6 months with my licence. Spun the silvia once, and that was while I was drifting in the wet - On a rural backroad.

and the pothole incident. :p ;) you crazy

whiteballz

10-15-2009, 05:44 PM

having dirty great big stripes down the middle of the car and steam coming off your front brakes also works...

and the pothole incident. :p ;) you crazy

Oh yeah, the pothole incident. Still glad I knew what the **** to do to keep it from going nose first into the other car!

cargirl1990

10-15-2009, 11:06 PM

Ford Tempo. That is all.

jcp123

10-15-2009, 11:15 PM

In the interests of full disclosure, my first accident was in a 130hp Ford Focus. It wasn't the HP that got me in trouble, it was me thinking I could cut the corner on a two-way, two lane road with no markings at 25mph. A green Acura Integra was coming the opposite way and BOOM! In correcting to get out of the Integra's way, I ended up in the opposite side's barbed wire fence. I was 16 and 8 years later can say it was state of mind, not the car, that got me f*cked.

cargirl1990

10-15-2009, 11:20 PM

Sometimes experience teaches you things. And the hard way too sometimes. I just wish that people looked at their drivers liscence's as a priviledge. It really is a priviledge to drive. It gives people a sense of independence. And there's a reason why there are rules in the driving world. So many lives are lost to reckless behaviour like drinking while driving, or even talking on your cell phone. Think about it. It can get a little dicey out there.

Ferrer

10-16-2009, 12:53 AM

Careful- That sounds dangerously close to sex-spec drivers rationale... (be seen)
What I meant is that if I'm doing 160km/h (or more) on the outside lane of the motorway someone in the middle lane doing 130km/h or so will see me better in the mirrors if I have my lights on rather than if I don't and therefore one pull into the outside lane and won't cause a big accident.

LeonOfTheDead

10-16-2009, 03:39 AM

THere are good chances the moron blocking the way on whichever lane won't see you even if you are IT dressed by a horror clown driving a Beetle made of Kryptonite.

The worst risk is taking chances on what other people/driver are thinking.

Even if morons end up being quite predictable.

Ferrer

10-16-2009, 04:45 AM

group c n b man

10-16-2009, 01:34 PM

We've all gone a bit off topic here. Lets get back to more car suggestions.

Ferrer

10-16-2009, 02:17 PM

We've all gone a bit off topic here. Lets get back to more car suggestions.
Low-powered supermini with narrow tires and power or electric nothing.

LeonOfTheDead

10-16-2009, 02:21 PM

We've all gone a bit off topic here. Lets get back to more car suggestions.

it isn't offtopic, it's the argument "the right car doesn't exist, to each his own, if you're a good and responsible guy even an F40 could do the job, if you're stupid and reckless be afraid of your bicycle".

Ferrer

10-16-2009, 02:30 PM

it isn't offtopic, it's the argument "the right car doesn't exist, to each his own, if you're a good and responsible guy even an F40 could do the job, if you're stupid and reckless be afraid of your bicycle".
That makes a lot of sense. Far too much for modern teenagers.

group c n b man

10-16-2009, 03:25 PM

That makes a lot of sense. Far too much for modern teenagers.

I understand that perfectly. I'm not the stereotype boyracer, dangerous, ill-informed and ignorant. I'm one of the very few of my generation who have always had a genuine, geeky and sound interest for all things automotive. The problem is... everyone thinks all young drivers are the same. Perhaps my thread title was misleading, I was just having a rant about the fact that real enthusiasts can't get easy access to good cars due to the iresponsibility of the masses.

Ferrer

10-16-2009, 03:29 PM

I understand that perfectly. I'm not the stereotype boyracer, dangerous, ill-informed and ignorant. I'm one of the very few of my generation who have always had a genuine, geeky and sound interest for all things automotive. The problem is... everyone thinks all young drivers are the same. Perhaps my thread title was misleading, I was just having a rant about the fact that real enthusiasts can't get easy access to good cars due to the iresponsibility of the masses.
Well that is true. But while some us drive responsibly there are many other young guys who think they are the next Schumacher and that they can drive better than anyone else.

On the other hand I can understand why parents wouldn't be very keen to put their teenage children in high performance cars.

csl177

10-16-2009, 11:13 PM

Well that is true. But while some us drive responsibly there are many other young guys who think they are the next Schumacher and that they can drive better than anyone else.

On the other hand I can understand why parents wouldn't be very keen to put their teenage children in high performance cars.

In countries that have high licensing requirements and comprehensive training, are 16-25 year olds hooning about as badly as in countries without such training and requirements? My guess is maybe... but insurance companies use tables for a reason. And that's enough for most parents to choose safe and humble first cars for their children. Economical, too.

My first car ('65 GT350) was a potential death machine. Only race karting experience prevented me from getting killed a couple of times, but certainly didn't prevent some of my stupid behaviour. And I was considered a careful and responsible teenager.
It's funny: I also soloed at 16 and got my pilot's license at 17... but I never did ANYTHING stupid in an airplane.

Even with extensive training, driving a car should be considered a revocable privilege, and safe low-powered autos a good first choice.

pimento

10-17-2009, 12:26 AM

I'm also going to put it out there that a first car should have a manial gearbox.. the theory being that if people have to change gears, they're going to be concentrating on driving more.

wwgkd

10-17-2009, 12:33 AM

I'm also going to put it out there that a first car should have a manial gearbox.. the theory being that if people have to change gears, they're going to be concentrating on driving more.

I hear that a lot, but it seems to me if someone was going to daydream they're probably still going to day dream. If they were going to pay attention they're probably still going to pay attention. If it took all that much attention to shift, then you'd run into the problem that they're paying attention to that instead of what's going on around them.

I think a varied driving experience is more important than what exactly your first car is. By driving large trucks you learn quite a bit that you don't notice on a motorcycle, and vice versa. Driving in crazy city traffic and off road both give you insights that can come in handy.

But all in all you can't fix stupid and some people just are, so learning to spot/avoid them is more important than being able to double clutch.

LeonOfTheDead

10-17-2009, 02:05 AM

I hear that a lot, but it seems to me if someone was going to daydream they're probably still going to day dream. If they were going to pay attention they're probably still going to pay attention. If it took all that much attention to shift, then you'd run into the problem that they're paying attention to that instead of what's going on around them.

I think a varied driving experience is more important than what exactly your first car is. By driving large trucks you learn quite a bit that you don't notice on a motorcycle, and vice versa. Driving in crazy city traffic and off road both give you insights that can come in handy.

But all in all you can't fix stupid and some people just are, so learning to spot/avoid them is more important than being able to double clutch.

Correct. All.

My aunt never drove my uncle's cars, just her mini hatch, and she quite often ends up in small accidents, mostly while maneuvering.
A friend of mine only drives in open roads, never in the city, and and when he does...oh jesus.
My father raced with motocross bikes when he was young, drove lorries, super minis (beat the original Fiat 500 and Mini), large boats (Citroen DS and Volvo Polar) and minivans (Lancia Phedra) with a lot of stuff in the middle. He never had an accident (superstitious gesture), but he is also quite of a responsible person.

He also used to be a paratrooper while in the army (40 years ago), I guess that could have helped getting things "straights".

Ferrer

10-17-2009, 04:23 AM

My first car ('65 GT350) was a potential death machine. Only race karting experience prevented me from getting killed a couple of times, but certainly didn't prevent some of my stupid behaviour. And I was considered a careful and responsible teenager.
My first car was a supercharged Mini Cooper S and that was also a potential death machine. I didn't crash it fortunately, but as you said that didn't prevent from acting stupidly sometimes. Especially in the early days. Then if you have a scary moment you learn lots of things. And I was also considered careful and responsible. But even so, we've all been there.

Personally I'd make some safety/high performance driving courses mandatory for all new drivers. Exploring the laws of physics in a controlled enviroment teaches you a lot and it's much safer that exploring them on you own in some local mountain roads.

LeonOfTheDead

10-17-2009, 04:50 AM

My first car was a supercharged Mini Cooper S and that was also a potential death machine. I didn't crash it fortunately, but as you said that didn't prevent from acting stupidly sometimes. Especially in the early days. Then if you have a scary moment you learn lots of things. And I was also considered careful and responsible. But even so, we've all been there.

Personally I'd make some safety/high performance driving courses mandatory for all new drivers. Exploring the laws of physics in a controlled enviroment teaches you a lot and it's much safer that exploring them on you own in some local mountain roads.

That could potentially lead them to think they are now once again the new Schumacher of the road though.
I knew guys thinking they know a bunch of stuff just because they test drove a car for 5 minutes with a pro driver during some sort of show or exhibition.

At that point studying a bit of vehicle dynamics could help too, but I think the simplest and more effective solution is to be good parents and be sure you're son can handle (psychologically) the car he is driving.
After that, shit happens, you can't do much about that.

Revo

10-17-2009, 05:33 AM

Personally I'd make some safety/high performance driving courses mandatory for all new drivers. Exploring the laws of physics in a controlled enviroment teaches you a lot and it's much safer that exploring them on you own in some local mountain roads.
We have that over here. After getting a driver's licence, you have to pass a slippery driving course within next year. The course contains 10 hours of practical driving lessons on a slippery track incl. skidding, obstacle avoidance etc.

The point of a course is not to make participants into race car drivers, but to make them feel how easy it is to loose control and how to act in possible danger situations in order to avoid the worst consequences.

pimento

10-17-2009, 06:27 AM

TheScrutineer

10-17-2009, 01:40 PM

csl177

10-17-2009, 08:11 PM

We need mandatory skidpan lessons worldwide like Revo mentioned. They have a lot of that in Finland, a country that produces a lot of top racers. I think if you gave young drivers the feel and dynamics of a car on the edge they would learn a lot. I don't necessary mean gaining car control skill, I mean giving them a shock of how unpredictable things can be.

Agreed. Many years back some within the BMWCCA (PCA too IIRC) thought mentoring programs supporting public school drivers education would be a good thing for both the clubs and participating schools. In the US, school drivers ed is minimal, but all that 99.9% of young drivers get. Would have been a good symbiosis and a positive direction for better training, but the fear of litigation killed the idea. Liability concerns effect a lot of good ideas.

Guess the same lawyers prefer revenue from teen accident settlements over preventing them.

Even without a skid pad, teaching vehicle dynamic extremes (physics) should be several hours of coursework before stepping into a car. Good simulators available to classrooms aren't a bad idea as an alternative to track time... could be cheaper than fleets of training cars, and eliminate those pesky release forms.

What am I saying... no way that could ever be agreed to nationwide.
Every school district in our country is politically controlled, each state deciding what's best, without any continuity whatsoever. :(

wwgkd

10-17-2009, 11:10 PM

Dunno what it's like in other countries, but in this state of the AU (NSW) to get a bike license they go one and on about what happens when you need to quickly manuvre it and that you need to be talking to yourself while you ride:

I can see... (some idiot)
He might... (swerve in front it me)
I will... (slow down and give some space)

If everyone said that to themselves as they drove, all minor accidents and several major ones would go away in an instant. Think about it.. many of you probably already do that in that you keep yourselves aware about what everyone else might do around you. Encourage all new drivers to do that. It's a great way to get people to think about what's going on around them.

I actually do that all the time. Since I tend to day dream, when I'm driving (and if there's not much else to look at when I'm a passenger) I kind of make a game out of trying to guess what the cars around me are going to do. It's surprising how often you can predict what a guy is going to do just by the car he drives (model, modifications, etc.) I'm pretty sure it's saved me from several accidents, even if it is a little dorky to do.

We need mandatory skidpan lessons worldwide like Revo mentioned. They have a lot of that in Finland, a country that produces a lot of top racers. I think if you gave young drivers the feel and dynamics of a car on the edge they would learn a lot. I don't necessary mean gaining car control skill, I mean giving them a shock of how unpredictable things can be.

I learned to drive offroad in the foothills near Mt Ranier years before I was old enough to drive on the road and I think it helped a lot having all that experience. When you're used to minimal traction and having to plan out what you want to do well in advance it's a definite advantage. Also teaches you that you are not in fact the immortal star of a fast and furious movie, so you tend to pull less stupid stunts where it can hurt you.