Diesel in the USA

[henk4]

I am reading here that BMW has received an order to convert 240000 (twohundred and forty thousand) police cars to diesel propulsion...
The order comes from Carbon Motors and BMW will also supply transmissions, exhaust and cooling system.
According to Carbon Motors the fleet emissions will be reduced by 30% in combination with a 40% power increase.

[Ferrer]

Article: Carbon Motors to use BMW diesel in new E7 police car — Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/22/carbon-motors-E7-to-use-bmw-diesel-in-new-police-car/)

[henk4]

but there is still thisa nagging feeling of April's Fool.....

[Ferrer]

Well April's Fool or not, I'm not too sure on the possibilities of this proposal.

Considering it is meant for government agencies this looks to me as an expensive alternative, not only to buy but to run as well. Car from big corporations can be much more cost effective because they are based on mass produced components ready available to the general public. This looks quite bespoke, and the BMW diesel isn't exactly popular in the US. Furthermore the fuel price difference between Europe and North America negate much of the advantages of the diesel engine in the US.

It does have interesting points, like the reduction in fuel consumption as well as a car designed specifically for law enforcing duties which could overcome the constraints of mass-produced passenger cars, but I don't know if those will be enough to overcome the differences in cost.

Time will tell, I guess.

[Dino Scuderia]

but there is still thisa nagging feeling of April's Fool.....


That number has to be a misprint, that company probably hasn't sold 24 cars much less 240,000.

[Matra et Alpine]

As it's an order for engines it's perfectly feasible that is the lifetime purchase quantity.
So given a likely 5-10 year life, that's not so many per year , especially as it will also include spares and in-service replacements/upgrades.

To the cars themselves, it makes sense for a large organisation covering a smallish geographic area as they can reasonably host the necessary storage and fuelling arrangements that would be necessary in the US as it lacks the infrastructure for decent diesel delivery. Better chance of this type of thing happening than the investment to get national diesel distribution for end users.

By the time a stock car is upgraded for performance, handling and protection it probably is an expensive proposition.
The US don't run the European modl of local patrol cars being "ordinary" and then a few special police cars for high speed pursuit and protection.

I do smile thinking that there is probably someone somewhere us proposing diesel as it's less volatle than petrol. I mean all those shoot-outs and crashes in the films prove to all how explosive petrol is :) NOT !

[Dino Scuderia]

To the cars themselves, it makes sense for a large organisation covering a smallish geographic area as they can reasonably host the necessary storage and fuelling arrangements that would be necessary in the US as it lacks the infrastructure for decent diesel delivery. Better chance of this type of thing happening than the investment to get national diesel distribution for end users.

This is total bs.....you can buy diesel motorfuel almost anywhere in the USA.

[RacingManiac]

That number has to be a misprint, that company probably hasn't sold 24 cars much less 240,000.


RFQ maybe? You always quote for production quantity when you are trying to plan out your production.

[Matra et Alpine]

This is total bs.....you can buy diesel motorfuel almost anywhere in the USA.
NO, we're talking DECENT diesel that is low sulphur ?

[Dino Scuderia]

NO, we're talking DECENT diesel that is low sulphur ?

Yes, ultra low sulphur diesel(15 ppm) fuel is the norm here now.

[henk4]

Yes, ultra low sulphur diesel(15 ppm) fuel is the norm here now.

we are down to 10 ppm....(since 1-1-2009)

[Dino Scuderia]

we are down to 10 ppm....(since 1-1-2009)

15 ppm was mandated here in '06....I don't know the schedule for going lower.

All 2010 and forward road diesels have to have the Diesel Exhaust Fluid systems...I know euro diesels have had this for a while.

[Matra et Alpine]

hmm intersting. WHy DEF when SCR is meeting and planned to exceed Euro strict limits ?
Does DEF allow dirtier/cheaper fuel ? Can imagine the chemical aprpoach coping better than the recycle and catalyse approach.
I'm not aware of any trucks or cars in Europe running DEF ... love the idea of pissing in the urea tank. Scandinavian piss probably increase the octane rating too :)

Is DEF maybe better on the bigger engines in the US ?
OR, is it a preference/licensing/patent cost issue that led the world to catalysts rather than lean burn on petrol ?
I'd love to understand this, but dont' know much on diesels :)

[Dino Scuderia]

hmm intersting. WHy DEF when SCR is meeting and planned to exceed Euro strict limits ?
Does DEF allow dirtier/cheaper fuel ? Can imagine the chemical aprpoach coping better than the recycle and catalyse approach.
I'm not aware of any trucks or cars in Europe running DEF ... love the idea of pissing in the urea tank. Scandinavian piss probably increase the octane rating too :)

Is DEF maybe better on the bigger engines in the US ?
OR, is it a preference/licensing/patent cost issue that led the world to catalysts rather than lean burn on petrol ?
I'd love to understand this, but dont' know much on diesels :)

If Kimi pissed in your tank the octane would definitely go off the scale.;)

Mercedes BlueTec is nothing more than a urea tank which holds their AdBlue fluid. Euro diesel trucks have been using too...so apparently large and small engines benefit.

DEF is not a gimmick for allowing substandard fuel IMO...it's just the most effective way to reduce emissions in diesels so far.

Major truck stops here are already installing DEF dispensers.

[Speedy1985]

That number has to be a misprint, that company probably hasn't sold 24 cars much less 240,000.

It's not wrong... here's the press release

Munich/Washington, D.C. The BMW Group has received a major order from the American law enforcement vehicle manufacturer, Carbon Motors Corp., to supply more than 240,000 diesel engines. Ian Robertson, member of the Board of Management of BMW AG, responsible for Sales and Marketing, and William Santana Li, Chairman and CEO of Carbon Motors Corp. signed the contract at a ceremony held in Washington, D.C. today. The agreement calls for delivery of inline six-cylinder diesel engines complete with cooling and exhaust gas system and automatic transmission.



Ian Robertson: “We announced the expansion of our powertrain system sales business as part of the company’s Strategy Number ONE. Today’s agreement with Carbon Motors marks another important milestone along this route – with others to follow.” Robertson continued: “We are delighted to support Carbon Motors Corp. with our engine expertise. BMW Group diesel engines have a clear lead over the competition when it comes to fuel consumption, emissions and performance. In this way, we will also help reduce the fuel consumption and CO2 emissions of more than 240,000 US law enforcement vehicles by up to 40% over the coming years.”



Carbon Motors Corp. was founded in 2003 and is the world’s first manufacturer of purpose-built law enforcement vehicles. “In the BMW Group, we have found a strong partner who has been operating successfully in the US for more than two decades,” noted Li. “The BMW Group drive system makes it possible to accommodate the mission critical law enforcement needs for performance, efficiency, and driving dynamics. Efficient BMW diesel engines will benefit not only the environment, but – thanks to the fleet’s lower running costs–– also the American taxpayer,” said Li.



More performance combined with lower fuel consumption and emissions – that is the motto of the BMW EfficientDynamics technology that has been standard in more than 1.6 million vehicles the company has sold since 2007. Continuous improvements in diesel engines are also a major part of this program. In recent years BMW diesel engines have dominated their classes at the renowned “International Engine of the Year Awards”. In 2009, the BMW Group sold around 498,000 diesel engines vehicles worldwide – almost 39% of its total sales of 1.286 million units. In Europe the majority of BMW and MINI customers opted for diesel in 2009 – 63% of the more than 761,000 vehicles delivered in Europe were equipped with this kind of drive. Diesel is also becoming increasingly important in the US, where two diesel models, the BMW X5 xDrive 35d and the BMW 335d Sedan have been available since December 2008. Diesel accounted for 17% of X5 sales for 2009 as a whole. In the meantime, almost one in three BMW X5 vehicles sold in the US has an inline six-cylinder diesel motor. The BMW X5 is the premium segment’s bestselling diesel vehicle here.



Engine development and construction is one of the BMW Group’s core competences and is part of the company’s heritage since its founding in 1916. Today the BMW Group has a strong network with a total of 24 production facilities in 13 countries, including three engine plants in Steyr, Austria; Munich, Germany; and Hams Hall, UK.

[Dino Scuderia]

It still could be a misprint.

[Ferrer]

If it was a misprint someone, from either BMW or Carbon Motors, would have corrected it by now.

[Dino Scuderia]

Yeah, but where would the correction be?

[Ferrer]

I guess they would have released an statement correcting the misprint. But the article is from yesterday morning and nothing has been said which leads me to believe the number is correct. However it could be what a Matra says, a long term contract, therefore a bit of marketing play, not instantly purchasing 240 grand engines.

[Dino Scuderia]

Given this little tidbit it is an astounding number of motors to order....which is in line with my skepticism.

"All told, U.S. law enforcement agencies from all 48 continental states have pre-ordered about 12,500 vehicles from Carbon, said Stephens, who stressed that the company has "not done any marketing whatsoever" but declined to say how long a time period the BMW agreement would cover.

Stephens also declined to identify any of the agencies that have placed orders, citing conditions of the agreements with those agencies.

When those cars will be built is another question altogether. Carbon Motors, whose CEO William Santana Li is a former Ford executive, last year applied for a $310 million loan with the U.S. Energy Department and will be able to build cars within about three years of funding, but Stephens declined to say when that funding would be available.

Carbon Motors, which was founded in 2003, last year acquired an Indiana auto plant formerly occupied by auto parts maker Visteon and said at the time that it would invest $350 million upgrading the plant."

"Indiana Startup Carbon Motors Buys 240,000 BMW Diesel Engines for Cop Cars" Green Car Advisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/03/indiana-startup-carbon-motors-buys-240000-bmw-diesel-engines-for-cop-cars.html)

[henk4]

So when can we expect (GOP-inspired?) uproar that it is unthinkable that:
"US Car makers have failed to produce the same type of propulsion units
US Tax Payers are not willing to pay for imported engines to propel THEIR police cars etc, etc"

[Ferrer]

Isn't the Chevrolet technically Australian and the Dodge partly German?

[cmcpokey]

Isn't the Chevrolet technically Australian and the Dodge partly German?

yes and yes. and many different ones are canadian.

[Ferrer]

And the new Ford has Swedish underpinnings.

[henk4]

look, this is about American policecars so we need american products....damn

[Kitdy]

yes and yes. and many different ones are canadian.

Yeah the Charger is built in Brampton which is about a 20 minute drive from my house. The Brampton Assembly Plant is right near my cousins house so when I go to see them, we often pass it - there are vast amounts of Chargers, 300s, and Challengers there.

Funny thing about that plant, their sigh is still Daimler Chrysler, just with Daimler removed or covered up.

Very poor.

[Fleet 500]

Yeah the Charger is built in Brampton which is about a 20 minute drive from my house. The Brampton Assembly Plant is right near my cousins house so when I go to see them, we often pass it - there are vast amounts of Chargers, 300s, and Challengers there.

Funny thing about that plant, their sigh is still Daimler Chrysler, just with Daimler removed or covered up.

Very poor.
Strange. They certainly have had enough time to change the sign!

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^ but no money ? :(

[4wheelsonline]

Is this news for real? April is coming in.. Maybe one of April fools? :D

[group c n b man]

Diesel in the USA is like a socially unacceptable thing still. It really is time it took off there like it has in Europe. The only vehicles which run on diesel in the USA are large trucks and buses whereas in Europe, just about every van, taxi and SUV is diesel.
The USA is taking all sorts of long winded and complicated measures to reduce CO2 emissions, all of which could be avoided by changing every van, SUV and Taxi to diesel.

Example : All those big yellow New York Taxis sound like large petrol V6s or V8s. MPG probably about 25, CO2 emissions probably about 270 g/km. In the UK the most popular Taxi is the Skoda Octavia 1.9TDI. MPG about 54, CO2 emissions 140g/km.

Now if all those big Fords were replaced by Skodas...
Take note of this America!

[Matra et Alpine]

Possible for car use they are seeing the interim diesel stage can be bypassed and go straight to electric/hybrid ??

[group c n b man]

Possible for car use they are seeing the interim diesel stage can be bypassed and go straight to electric/hybrid ??

I think a decade and a half of diesel possibility ignored is inexcusible. There are about 13,000 yellow cabs in New York. Think of how much fuel and CO2 could have been saved over 15 years!!

[Matra et Alpine]

Agreed ... but if Europes only experience of diesel were American truckstops we'd enver have gone that way either :)

[Ferrer]

Europe has only gone diesel because fuel costs a million. It has nothing to do with being green. If it didn't cost a million we would all be driving petrols.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Europe has only gone diesel because fuel costs a million. It has nothing to do with being green. If it didn't cost a million we would all be driving petrols.

This. the greatest motivator on the face of this earth is not one's conscience, it's one's wallet.

[Matra et Alpine]

Fuel prices in Europe are ONLY about political desire and whim.
THe vast majority of what we pay are taxes to our governments.
So in the UK when diesel was the "in thing to use" for the greeenies then the tax was lowered.
Now it's not the "poster boy" and diesel costs more the petrol -- even the crappy 95 sh!t :(

All of this I think maybe refutes part of the claim IB4R. Europeans are "happy" (!) to pay higher fuel prices and use less instead.
THough, it's getting to one of those crunch price points again :)

[Ferrer]

Fuel prices in Europe are ONLY about political desire and whim.
THe vast majority of what we pay are taxes to our governments.
So in the UK when diesel was the "in thing to use" for the greeenies then the tax was lowered.
Now it's not the "poster boy" and diesel costs more the petrol -- even the crappy 95 sh!t :(

All of this I think maybe refutes part of the claim IB4R. Europeans are "happy" (!) to pay higher fuel prices and use less instead.
THough, it's getting to one of those crunch price points again :)
Disagree. The reason may be whatever it is, taxes, market demand, arbitrary price discrimination by the producers,... but the simple fact of the matter is that 45 or 65€ a week for petrol make a huge difference.

[henk4]

If it didn't cost a million we would all be driving petrols.

That does not include me. Leave me out of your generalisations:)

[Ferrer]

Likewise, there's still some lunatics who drive petrols despite everything... ;)

[henk4]

Likewise, there's still some lunatics who drive petrols despite everything... ;)

you should not call names to Americans...

[Ferrer]

I was actually refering to Europeans.

[henk4]

I was actually refering to Europeans.
the thread is about America....

[Ferrer]

But it somewhat became about Europe's astronomical fuel prices.

[henk4]

But it somewhat became about Europe's astronomical fuel prices.
that is irrelevant given the intrinsically lower fuel consumption of diesel engines.

[Kitdy]

This. the greatest motivator on the face of this earth is not one's conscience, it's one's wallet.

I'd say that's second next to the pursuit of pleasure.

[Equinox]

^ I'd put money first for what motivates people, then pleasure.

Money is what dictates pretty much everything. People say we live in an information age, computer age etc.. But I think more then anything we are a money age. It's all about the money these days... If you have it, your set. If you don't, your screwed.

After all... Pleasure doesn't pay the bills.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

First you get the money.

Then you buy the pleasure.

[Matra et Alpine]

hmmmm "money can't buy you love" !!

If we're going to quote homilies :)

However, it buys a helluva lot of lust and sex , so I'm up for it !!!!!!!!

Seriously, the last 50 years has seen the "consumer society" take over from the social, real people, real lives one. So some know no other way ... and to be frank folks like Beck make out that social conscience is a bad thing, so no surprise that the benefits of "caring" are lost to so many :(

Ah well. DAMN, I'm getting old !!!!!

Ferrer, you kind of missed the point about the price.
YES, it makes a difference when you go to fill up, BUT in EUROPE 80% of that cost is taxes YOU ARE PAYING to your government to do "other things".
Taxes that large businesses are able to offset and thus get "reduced" fuel costs.

I'm no longer convinced either that diesels are worth it as the build cost is higher adn the difference in fuel consumption for MOST of the driving public jsut isn't there anymore -- granted folsk like Wouter/Pieter driving French-oil-burners all over Europe racking up the kms can start to offset it, but with newer cars it's jsut not there any more acertainly not at the prices in the UK :)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

In Australia, thanks to Taxes etc, Diesel is actually mor expensive than Petrol to purchase.

And yeah, you are sounding like a crotchety old man there, Matra. But social awareness is cool now.

Like, save the polar bears of Sri Lanka and stuff, you know?

[henk4]

I have made this point before, and having just done 335 km of effortless driving in Italy, I think it is worth repeating. Modern diesel cars so much correspond to the American way of driving, with oodles of torque at low revs, and no nervous revving to get some power at the wheels, that you can only wonder why it is not popular over there, apart from the general well known prejudices, (that are sometimes repeated here by some of our European forum members:)).

[Ferrer]

Ferrer, you kind of missed the point about the price.
YES, it makes a difference when you go to fill up, BUT in EUROPE 80% of that cost is taxes YOU ARE PAYING to your government to do "other things".
Taxes that large businesses are able to offset and thus get "reduced" fuel costs.
I'm not discussing that. :)

My point was that, regardless from where the high prices come and on what are they used, the prices do affect people's choice of powertrain

I'm no longer convinced either that diesels are worth it as the build cost is higher adn the difference in fuel consumption for MOST of the driving public jsut isn't there anymore -- granted folsk like Wouter/Pieter driving French-oil-burners all over Europe racking up the kms can start to offset it, but with newer cars it's jsut not there any more acertainly not at the prices in the UK :)
This. It's often I hear people saying they got a diesel because it "uses less fuel", not caring about the price difference with an equivalent petrol, the running costs, or the fact that they often do 10,000km a year or less.

I have made this point before, and having just done 335 km of effortless driving in Italy, I think it is worth repeating. Modern diesel cars so much correspond to the American way of driving, with oodles of torque at low revs, and no nervous revving to get some power at the wheels, that you can only wonder why it is not popular over there, apart from the general well known prejudices, (that are sometimes repeated here by some of our European forum members:)).
What about your petrol prejudices? ;)

[culver]

I think we get so few options that many don't consider them. For what ever reason very few manufactures feel they are a viable product here. My brother has a new VW Jetta diesel. In comparison to my father's 2.0T Passat I have to say the diesel isn't there yet. It's damn close and the mileage sure is good. I don't know what the price difference would be. However, overall I liked the gasser better. If it were my money I would likely buy the gas model over the diesel though if the prices were similar I would sure consider the diesel.

As I've said in the past, the problem with diesel in the US is aside from the good mileage they offer basically nothing more than we get with a gasoline car. They are almost or just as refined. They are not much more expensive. They are almost as quick. They almost don't smell. They are almost as low maintenance. Diesel prices right now are almost as cheap as gasoline. Diesel's certainly get better mileage (maybe 50% better) but that is the end of the ways diesel is really superior.

One more point, I wouldn't be surprised if the manufactures are a bit wary of some new surprise regulation throwing a wrench in the works. There was a lot of talk recently about many new diesels hitting the US market. However, a new round of emissions proposals seems to have put that on hold. It wouldn't surprise me if the manfactures are simply afraid to invest in US diesels only to have some new emissions reg that raises the price and kills their sales. Since the us diesel passenger car market is almost nil it's not like regulators are sensitive to the voices of diesel car buyers.

[henk4]

One more point, I wouldn't be surprised if the manufactures are a bit wary of some new surprise regulation throwing a wrench in the works. There was a lot of talk recently about many new diesels hitting the US market. However, a new round of emissions proposals seems to have put that on hold. It wouldn't surprise me if the manfactures are simply afraid to invest in US diesels only to have some new emissions reg that raises the price and kills their sales. Since the us diesel passenger car market is almost nil it's not like regulators are sensitive to the voices of diesel car buyers.

It could not be the case that US law makers would invent new regulations that would prevent a further erosion of sales of US made products, could it?

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^^ hmm like the imposition of catalytic convertors on the rest of the world despite "lean burn" developments in Europe surpassing the "standards" ????
Time for us to create "UCP old cynical farts" club Pieter :)

[Dino Scuderia]

"UCP old cynical farts" club

Where do I sign?

[henk4]

Where do I sign?

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/miscellaneous/41618-ucp-old-farts-cynical-club-restricted-membership.html#post935073

here...

[culver]

It could not be the case that US law makers would invent new regulations that would prevent a further erosion of sales of US made products, could it?

Not likely. Much of the emissions standards originate in California. As a state they could give less than two ****s about the US car makers. They are more likely to react if you were to cut their flow of Priuses.

[culver]

^^^^ hmm like the imposition of catalytic convertors on the rest of the world despite "lean burn" developments in Europe surpassing the "standards" ????
Time for us to create "UCP old cynical farts" club Pieter :)

Cats weren't initially mandated and Honda sold cars without them. Don't confuse US bueracracy with US conspiracy. Chysler complained that their 2 stroke technology from the 1990s was shot down because the EPA wouldn't let them skip certain expected emissions technologies that were unnessisary on their engine. I'm sure Europe and other places have similar beuricratic stories.

[Commodore GS/E]

This may be a stupid question (i think everybody knows it, apart from me :(), but i would like to know why diesels are that unloved in the US. From what i heard they are mainly thought as engines for trucks, but not for normal cars (i could possibly be wrong). Does anybody know..?

[Ferrer]

This was the problem.

http://www.autosavant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/olds-diesel.jpg

Also with their fuel prices there's no need for them either.

[culver]

This was the problem.

http://www.autosavant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/olds-diesel.jpg

Also with their fuel prices there's no need for them either.

In the 1980s it wasn't just the GM diesels. Lot's of people have less than fond memories of diesel power Peugeots and others. At the same time I also don't believe that the experience of American consumers in the late 70s and early 80s has anything to do with diesel sales today. I believe that's a myth that might have been true perhaps 10 years after the fact but not today. Many buyers of trucks are fond of diesel pickups.

[Ferrer]

I wouldn't be so sure. Whenever you say around here you want an italian car everyone looks at you as if you like to eat rust for breakfast and prefer your cars to have more lights one than a christmas. Prejudices, especially negative ones, are very hard to overcome. And altough it may not be the main problem, it still is part of the problem.

That and the complete lack of need for them.

[henk4]

I wouldn't be so sure. Whenever you say around here you want an italian car everyone looks at you as if you like to eat rust for breakfast and prefer your cars to have more lights one than a christmas. Prejudices, especially negative ones, are very hard to overcome. And altough it may not be the main problem, it still is part of the problem.

That and the complete lack of need for them.

for a moment I thought you had seen the light.....until your last sentence.

for the historical context, Mercedes sold the 300SD only in the USA...and you can occasionally find them in Europe, with these ugly bumpers.

[culver]

I wouldn't be so sure. Whenever you say around here you want an italian car everyone looks at you as if you like to eat rust for breakfast and prefer your cars to have more lights one than a christmas. Prejudices, especially negative ones, are very hard to overcome. And altough it may not be the main problem, it still is part of the problem.

That and the complete lack of need for them.

While there is some truth to what you say I don't think it applies to diesels. Most US car forums acknowledge the quality of modern diesels. Italian cars are having a harder time getting respect. Also, remember that we do have a number of diesels here. The number of diesel pickups may or may not help the cause. People are somewhat aware that WV and Mercedes both offer diesels in the US and they aren't bad cars at all. As for Italian cars, well few can afford the few Italian models we currently get and I'm not sure Ferrari would be representative of Fiat anyway (in both good and bad ways).

[Commodore GS/E]

What's the current US diesel price?

However, i know that bad memories about a brand/ an engine can last veeery long. Opel had a rust scandal in the mid 90s which was the fault of a man called Lopez (he thought: "well, more is more, so let's produce more cars using less money. Hwo the hell cares about build quality?"). This led to a dramatic image loss that is still affecting Opel's reputation today. Which means the awful diesels of the 70s/ 80s (i've done my homework now :)) could still have effecton today's conservative or older buyers.

[Dino Scuderia]

Currently diesel cost is closer to petrol than it has been in quite a while. Traditionally diesel has been a good bit cheaper than petrol here until about 2-3 years ago then diesel went higher.

Currently at the pump in my area diesel is 5 to 10 cents higher than petrol.

[Commodore GS/E]

Currently at the pump in my area diesel is 5 to 10 cents higher than petrol.

WTH??? The price for both diesel and petrol may be higher in general over here, but i've never seen that diesel was more expensive than petrol... seriously, that' shocking :(

[henk4]

WTH??? The price for both diesel and petrol may be higher in general over here, but i've never seen that diesel was more expensive than petrol... seriously, that' shocking :(

here is a link to the spot prices in various areas of the world. All these prices are without taxes.

Spot Prices for Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_spt_s1_d.htm)

[Ferrer]

for a moment I thought you had seen the light.....until your last sentence.
What light? I think that you are far less objective than I am in the petrol v diesel argument.

Yes diesel has its point, which is low fuel consumption, but that aside petrol engines can be as good if not better than diesel engine in other aspects. And in others they are simply better.

I don't understand why that is so hard to accept for you.

[Matra et Alpine]

fyi ... Central Scotland diesel is 1p/l more expensive than petrol and "premium diesel" is 7p/l more expensive :(

[henk4]

What light? I think that you are far less objective than I am in the petrol v diesel argument.

Yes diesel has its point, which is low fuel consumption, but that aside petrol engines can be as good if not better than diesel engine in other aspects. And in others they are simply better.

I don't understand why that is so hard to accept for you.

sounds like: What have the Romans ever done for us.....
for me diesel is superior in one thing that really matters: everyday driveability. Forget about exploring mountaneous routes at the top of the rev range, that's not everyday business. (I just did that during some parts of the Tour Auto route, and the car let me down, not the engine). The lower fuel consumption comes as a bonus.
And for those who really should be convinced, I was driven around at Villa d'Este in a BMW 530d GT, where the engine stood out, in being absolutely silent. (suspension comfort is something else though)

[Ferrer]

sounds like: What have the Romans ever done for us.....
for me diesel is superior in one thing that really matters: everyday driveability. Forget about exploring mountaneous routes at the top of the rev range, that's not everyday business. (I just did that during some parts of the Tour Auto route, and the car let me down, not the engine). The lower fuel consumption comes as a bonus.
And for those who really should be convinced, I was driven around at Villa d'Este in a BMW 530d GT, where the engine stood out, in being absolutely silent. (suspension comfort is something else though)
And there are plenty of petrol engine with low down torque and wide(r) power bads out there in the market. Not all petrol are peaky, high-revving units. In the same way that not all diesel engines are laggy, narrow powerband engines I guess.

[culver]

While the Corvette isn't against reving I assure you it has power down low! Seriously though I think in the US we are used to larger displacement motors. A 2L diesel VW isn't bad but it really doesn't feel any more powerful than a rather common 2.4L Honda.

I think my best diesel point of reference is the VW 2.0 TD vs the VW 2.0T DI. Both have decent though not overwhelming feeling down low. I like that the 2.0T's rev range is closer to what I'm used to. I must admit, having driven I4 powered cars most of my life it's strange to drive something as low reving as a Corvette (or a 2.0 TD).

Still, at the end of the day, in the US where we don't have displacement limits/incentives, I find gasoline cars are as good or better in all ways other than mileage (which is a big one).

[wwgkd]

While there is some truth to what you say I don't think it applies to diesels. Most US car forums acknowledge the quality of modern diesels. Italian cars are having a harder time getting respect. Also, remember that we do have a number of diesels here. The number of diesel pickups may or may not help the cause. People are somewhat aware that WV and Mercedes both offer diesels in the US and they aren't bad cars at all. As for Italian cars, well few can afford the few Italian models we currently get and I'm not sure Ferrari would be representative of Fiat anyway (in both good and bad ways).

Most people aren't on car forums though. I hear all the time from people that diesels are loud, smelly and horrible for the environment. Many of these same people aren't aware when a TDI drives past or that it's a diesel though, them so I wouldn't call them well informed. But many here people do equate diesels with the horrible ones from the past and semis.


While the Corvette isn't against reving I assure you it has power down low! Seriously though I think in the US we are used to larger displacement motors. A 2L diesel VW isn't bad but it really doesn't feel any more powerful than a rather common 2.4L Honda.

I think my best diesel point of reference is the VW 2.0 TD vs the VW 2.0T DI. Both have decent though not overwhelming feeling down low. I like that the 2.0T's rev range is closer to what I'm used to. I must admit, having driven I4 powered cars most of my life it's strange to drive something as low reving as a Corvette (or a 2.0 TD).

Still, at the end of the day, in the US where we don't have displacement limits/incentives, I find gasoline cars are as good or better in all ways other than mileage (which is a big one).

I think that last part depends on the type of vehicle. For heavy hauling or towing, pretty much everything here is a diesel for a reason. Moving a lot of weight you benefit quite a bit from all that torque.

[henk4]

And there are plenty of petrol engine with low down torque and wide(r) power bads out there in the market. Not all petrol are peaky, high-revving units. In the same way that not all diesel engines are laggy, narrow powerband engines I guess.

with a diesel you don't NEED a wide powerband. Actually what is wide? is 2500 revs enough?

[henk4]

While the Corvette isn't against reving I assure you it has power down low! Seriously though I think in the US we are used to larger displacement motors. A 2L diesel VW isn't bad but it really doesn't feel any more powerful than a rather common 2.4L Honda.

Perhaps you should try my 2.2 liter, with 470 NM at 1500 revs.....but as diesel is mainly for the European market, the big guns, introduced not so long ago, have disappeared again, BMW and Mercedes dropped their V8s from the range, claiming that their I6 and V6 3.5 liters would do the job properly. Only Audi has the V12 still available. It would "smoke" the Corvette at low revs.......;)

[culver]

I think that last part depends on the type of vehicle. For heavy hauling or towing, pretty much everything here is a diesel for a reason. Moving a lot of weight you benefit quite a bit from all that torque.

I chose my words carefully, cars, not trucks. I agree that diesels can be good in trucks but really a lot of that again comes down to the mileage advantages.

[culver]

Perhaps you should try my 2.2 liter, with 470 NM at 1500 revs.....but as diesel is mainly for the European market, the big guns, introduced not so long ago, have disappeared again, BMW and Mercedes dropped their V8s from the range, claiming that their I6 and V6 3.5 liters would do the job properly. Only Audi has the V12 still available. It would "smoke" the Corvette at low revs.......;)

I'm sure I would like say the BMW 3 series diesel. Still, currently all I have to compare is are the two VW motors. Based on those very similar application motors I don't see any reason beyond mileage I would prefer the diesel. The mileage is a big plus and I would consider it but I think in the US market they simply aren't as compelling.

BTW, I agree that we are seeing a move away from larger motors to smaller ones even in the US (6 vs 8 cylinder, 4 vs 6). However, in the US that is probably in part due to the new CAFE rules and in part because the performance of the newest 6 cylinder cars is really on par with V8s from not that long ago. The latest I4s are keeping up with V6s from not long ago. There is truth to the notion that the larger motors are less relevant because what used to be the junior motors are so much better. Heck even the Mustang V6 is no producing a respectable 305hp!

While the low end torque of the diesels is impressive, do remember that gearing comes into play as well. In the end I didn't feel the lighter Jetta diesel with more torque than the Passat felt more powerful. It felt decidedly less potent if not by a huge margin.

In the end I still will argue that until the run up in gas prices in the US there was little compelling need for diesels in the US. At best they were as good. When gas was cheap the big advantage was a bit of a non-issue when looking at cars. As gas went up diesel's mileage started to get noticed and interest went up. However, I think the newest round of emissions from the left coast will make diesels again a technical and cost challenge in the US. I think it would be great if we had more diesel choices but I also have to assume that given the number of manufactures who choose not to bring them here they really feel the market is not compelling in the US.

[henk4]

so one State can basically control/determine the emission regulations of the 50 other states?
(BTW, what are the specs of the VW TDs and Ts that you base your comparisons on?)

[Ferrer]

Still, at the end of the day, in the US where we don't have displacement limits/incentives, I find gasoline cars are as good or better in all ways other than mileage (which is a big one).
Oh they are here too, especially the new downsized and turbocharged engines. They have plenty of performance, very little lag and are quite refined. Of course, again, no competition for fuel mileage though.

with a diesel you don't NEED a wide powerband. Actually what is wide? is 2500 revs enough?
What about 4 or 4 and half grand? In the Mini I can put sixth from about 40km/h and just forget about the gear lever. In the Lancia it's from 70km/h. In the BMW though you need to be doing 100km/h to be able to engage sixth and maintain it.

[henk4]

Oh they are here too, especially the new downsized and turbocharged engines. They have plenty of performance, very little lag and are quite refined. Of course, again, no competition for fuel mileage though.

What about 4 or 4 and half grand? In the Mini I can put sixth from about 40km/h and just forget about the gear lever. In the Lancia it's from 70km/h. In the BMW though you need to be doing 100km/h to be able to engage sixth and maintain it.

I am off to San Marino for the Violati museum, and will engage 6th gear at 70 kph and then if the carabinieri will allow me, go all the way to 225...

[Ferrer]

In the Mini it's 40 to 220. So that's technically moar. ;)

[culver]

so one State can basically control/determine the emission regulations of the 50 other states?
(BTW, what are the specs of the VW TDs and Ts that you base your comparisons on?)

Sadly yes.

According to VW's US website (and assuming no changes from last year) the Jetta is 140hp and 236 lb ft of torque. The Passat motor was 200 and 207 respectively (2010 number, the 2008 engine is different but I don't think the numbers changed much). According to VW's web page the 3300lb empty Passat with get to 60 in under 7 seconds. The 110lb lighter Jetta wagon diesel takes 9.5.

Again using VW's numbers a diesel Golf does 0-60 in 8.5 seconds and costs $22.3k base. The GTI is the closest equivalent and starts at $23.7k and does 0-60 in under 7. I don't know if the levels of equipment are equivalent or not.

I can say the diesel isn't as refined at the DI 2.0T. It's not bad at all and makes my old Mazda Miata motor seem crude (which it is) but it's not as good as the 2.0T nor do I think it's as smooth as the Mazda/Ford Duratec in the Fusion I drove recently. Hard to compare relative power of those two given other differences.

[Commodore GS/E]

I think diesel technologies have come a long way. Just compare the newest commonrail engines with the old pump diesels. But i agree, they make no (or not that much) sense in common cars in america as long as the price difference between diesel and gasoline isn't that big. However, if you have to travel much, i guess that diesels would be a lot more fuel efficient and also a lot cheaper than petrol engined cars.

[wwgkd]

Sadly yes.

According to VW's US website (and assuming no changes from last year) the Jetta is 140hp and 236 lb ft of torque. The Passat motor was 200 and 207 respectively (2010 number, the 2008 engine is different but I don't think the numbers changed much). According to VW's web page the 3300lb empty Passat with get to 60 in under 7 seconds. The 110lb lighter Jetta wagon diesel takes 9.5.

Again using VW's numbers a diesel Golf does 0-60 in 8.5 seconds and costs $22.3k base. The GTI is the closest equivalent and starts at $23.7k and does 0-60 in under 7. I don't know if the levels of equipment are equivalent or not.

I can say the diesel isn't as refined at the DI 2.0T. It's not bad at all and makes my old Mazda Miata motor seem crude (which it is) but it's not as good as the 2.0T nor do I think it's as smooth as the Mazda/Ford Duratec in the Fusion I drove recently. Hard to compare relative power of those two given other differences.

Just to add to this a bit. In the Golf they give the TDI the same suspension as the GTI trying to sell it as a sportier feeling car, but then gear it taller for better mileage, which hampers acceleration. Always thought that was a little strange. But the interior equipment appears to be fairly similar on the cars I checked out, with the diesel still being cheaper.

[henk4]

In Europe the specs are 170 BHP for the GTD (0-100 in 8.1) and 210 BHP for the GTI FSi (0-100 in 6.9)

[Ferrer]

Altough I think the GTD is softer than the GTI, itself not a terribly hard car either.

[Commodore GS/E]

Altough I think the GTD is softer than the GTI, itself not a terribly hard car either.

I thought the GTD was similar to the GTI concerning the suspension

[group c n b man]

I would have thought that diesel cars would suit the US style of driving and roads much beter than petrol. The mileage on a good diesel like a BMW or Audi would be about 50% better than other big American cars, especially on long journeys. The only case for petrol in America is if it's cheaper than diesel.

What are these Californian emissions regulations anyway? In europe diesel cars are normally favoured in emissions test for their low CO2. Is the American test more focused on other nasties like CO, and NOx?

[Ferrer]

Actually at a steady, relatively low speed it is where petrol and diesel have the smallest difference in fuel consumption.