Audi R8 GT

[Kitdy]

Lighter, more powerful, faster.

The new R8 has the V10 engine, bumped up from 525 hp to 560, and has been lightened 220 lbs.

Also, they threw on a wing.

Press release below. For the Hide-out.

Audi R8 GT #1


Ingolstadt, 2010-05-01
The Audi R8 GT: Extreme lightweight construction and tremendous performance

* Limited-production, top-of-the-line version of the high-performance sports car
* 100 kilograms lighter, body parts in carbon
* V10 FSI with 412 kW (560 hp), 0 – 100 km/h in 3.6 seconds

Now even more powerful, lighter and faster: Audi presents a limited-production version of it R8 high-performance sports car, the R8 GT. The output of its 5.2-liter V10 has been increased to 412 kW (560 hp); vehicle weight has been reduced by roughly 100 kilograms (220.46 lb). The R8 GT accelerates from zero to 100 km/h (62.14 mph) in 3.6 seconds and reaches a top speed of 320 km/h (198.84 mph).

The R8 high-performance sports car has been a winner from the very beginning. This applies to both the production models, winners of the "World Performance Car" Award in 2008 (R8) and in 2010 (R8 V10), and to the race car, the R8 LMS, which won 23 races in its first season and claimed three championships. The genes of the race version are now coming to the street – in the R8 GT. The exclusive series is limited to 333 units. Each R8 GT has a badge with its production number on the shift lever knob.

Consistent use of lightweight construction: 100 kilograms (220.46 lb) trimmed
The production R8 5.2 FSI quattro is already a shining example of the Audi's lightweight construction philosophy. Its aluminum Audi Space Frame (ASF) body weighs only 210 kilograms (462.97 lb). The aluminum body panels are joined to the frame of extruded profiles and cast nodes by means of positive and friction connections. The engine frame is made of ultra lightweight magnesium.

The ASF body is largely hand-built at the Neckarsulm plant in a complex manufacturing process. The extremely high strength of the body is the basis for the high-performance sports car's precise handling, and it also offers good vibration comfort and first-rate crash safety.

Thanks to the ASF body, the production R8 5.2 FSI quattro weighs only 1,625 kilograms (3,582.51 lb) – with quattro permanent all-wheel drive and optional R tronic transmission. This made it all the more difficult for the engineers to once again achieve substantial weight savings. They took an elaborate approach involving every aspect of the vehicle, and in the end the scales came to rest at 1,525 kilograms (3,362.05 lb).

The windshield of the R8 GT is made of thinner glass; the bulkhead between the passenger cell and engine compartment, as well as the window in the rear hatch are made of strong, lightweight polycarbonate. These three modifications saved nine kilograms (19.84 lb). The fixed rear wing is good for an additional 1.2 kilograms (2.65 lb); thinner sheet metal and additional cutouts shaved 2.6 kilograms (5.73 lb) from the aluminum hatch over the 100 liter (3.53 cu ft) luggage compartment at the front of the car.

The long rear hatch is made of carbon fiber-reinforced plastic (CFRP) – an advantage of 6.6 kilograms (14.55 lb). The rear bumper and the sideblades of this same material save an additional 5.2 and 1.5 kilograms (11.46 and 3.31 lb), respectively. With its minimal weight and extremely high strength, CFRP is the ideal material for a high-performance sports car, and Audi has broad-based expertise in its use.

The engineers also fought to shave every possible gram of weight from the technical components of R8. They shaved one kilogram (2.20 lb) from the power brake system, four kilograms (8.82 lb) from the aluminum caps of the brake discs and 9.4 kilograms (20.72 lb) from the battery. The engineers also found 2.3 kilograms (5.07 lb) in the air intake module and 2.8 kilograms (6.17 lb) in the insulation of the engine compartment.

[Kitdy]

Audi R8 GT #2


The interior also harbored substantial weight-savings potential. The new, lightweight carpeting accounts for 7.9 kilograms (17.42 lb); the bucket seats with a chassis of glass-reinforced plastic (GRP) account for 31.5 kilograms (69.45 lb). Numerous additional detailed measures targeted the interior, the exterior and the technology, such as higher-grade, lighter steel for the exhaust system's tailpipes.

Even sharper and more effective: the design
The design of the Audi R8 GT is the expression of concentrated power – a beautiful, technical sculpture measuring 4.43 meters (14.53 ft) long, 1.93 meters (6.33 ft) wide and only 1.24 meters (4.04 ft) high. The exterior underwent numerous modifications that further sharpened the appearance. Many of them also reduce the weight and enhance the aerodynamics. The R8 GT produces even more downforce when driven fast than the production model – without any increase in the Cd value (0.36) or frontal area (1.99 m2) (21.42 sq ft).

The frame of the single-frame grille, its struts and the slats in the air intakes are finished in matt titanium gray; the grille is painted matt black. The splitter under the bumper has a double lip and is made of carbon. Slender, curved flics at the corners of the nose increase the downforce on the front axle and are also made of a carbon fiber composite.

One highlight of the R8 GT are the standard LED headlights, which use light-emitting diodes for all functions. They produce bright, homogeneous light, have a long service life and low energy consumption. The headlights also have an attractive and distinctive appearance. The daytime running lights each comprise 24 LEDs and appear as a continuous band. The reflectors are reminiscent of open mussel shells.

The defining element of the side view are the sideblades, which direct air to the engine and in the R8 GT are also made of matte carbon. The same material is used for the reduced-size housing of the side mirrors, which are mounted on an aluminum base. The 19-inch wheels feature an exclusive five twin-spoke Y design in a titanium-look finish. The front fenders sport "GT" badges.

The modifications to the rear of the car are particularly apparent, beginning with the fixed wing of matte carbon. The ventilation louvers on both sides of the rear hatch and the CFRP bumper, which integrates the large, round tailpipes and vents for the wheel wells, have been redesigned. The larger diffuser is made of carbon fiber composite; the license plate bezel and the wide slats at the rear are in matte titanium gray. The tail lights, which also use LED technology, have dark housings with panes of clear glass.

Audi offers the R8 GT in a choice of four body colors: Samoa Orange metallic, Suzuka Gray metallic, Ice Silver metallic and Phantom Black pearl effect.

Breathtakingly powerful: the 412 kW (560 hp) 5.2 FSI
The modified V10, whose cylinder head covers are painted red, gives the Audi R8 GT breathtaking performance. The R8 GT sprints from a standing start to highway speed in 3.6 seconds, and from zero to 200 km/h (124.27 mph) in 10.8 seconds. And the thrust does not let up until the top speed of 320 km/h (198.84 mph) is reached.

Changes to the engine electronics coaxed an additional 26 kW from the ten-cylinder, which now produces 412 kW (560 hp) from a displacement of 5,204 cc. The torque curve peaks at 540 Nm (398.28 lb-ft) at 6,500 rpm, 10 Nm (7.38 lb-ft) more than in the production version. The V10 has a specific power output of 79.2 kW (107.6 hp) per liter displacement. Its power-to-weight ratio is 3.70 kilograms (8.16 lb) per kW or 2.72 kilograms (6.00 lb) per hp. The engine redlines at 8,700 rpm.

The long-stroke engine (bore x stroke 84.5 x 92.8 millimeters [3.33 x 3.65 in]), which is hand-built at the factory in Györ, Hungary, features a crankcase made of a aluminum-silicon alloy that is both lightweight and very strong. A bedplate – a frame for the crankshaft bearing bridges – further enhances its rigidity. The complete engine weighs only 258 kilograms (568.79 lb). It is characterized by a cylinder angle of 90 degrees and dry-sump lubrication, which uses a highly efficient oil pump module. Both solutions lower the center of gravity and thus improve driving dynamics.

The crankshaft is designed as a common pin shaft. The connecting rods of the opposing pistons engage a common crankpin, resulting in alternating firing intervals of 54 and 90 degrees. This unique rhythm gives the V10 its fascinating sound – a grand, technical music very much like that in racing. Two flaps in the exhaust system modulate its volume and tone as a function of load and engine speed.

The normally aspirated engine consumes an average of 13.7 liters of fuel per 100 km (17.17 US mpg) – very good fuel economy given the tremendous power. The FSI gasoline direct injection system injects the fuel into the combustion chambers at up to 120 bar of pressure. The turbulent mixture cools the cylinder walls, enabling a compression ratio of 12.5:1. A variable intake manifold and the continuous adjustment of the chain-driven camshafts ensure that the combustion chambers are fully filled. Flaps in the intake ports facilitate the formation of the mixture by inducing a tumbling motion in the inflowing air.

The drivetrain: uncompromising traction
Gear changes in the R8 GT are handled by the R tronic sequential manual transmission. The electrohydraulic clutch and switching unit receive their commands electronically. It changes its six gears much faster than a skilled driver could – within a tenth of a second at high load and engine speed.

The electronic management system offers an automatic mode with the Sport and Normal characteristics, and two manual levels. It is controlled using the short gear selector lever on the center tunnel and two paddles on the steering wheel. Maximum thrust when starting is ensured by Launch Control – a program that manages full acceleration with high engine speed and minimum wheel slip when starting.

quattro permanent all-wheel drive is the ideal technology for a high-performance sports car. The central viscous coupling located at the front differential sends 15 percent of the power to the front axle and 85 percent to the rear axle during normal driving. This split harmonizes perfectly with the Audi R8 GT's 43:57 percent weight distribution. The coupling sends as much as 30 percent of the power to the front wheels within milliseconds, if necessary. A mechanical locking differential at the rear axle further improves traction. It provides up to 25 percent lockup when accelerating and up to 40 percent on the overrun.

Chassis even tauter and more precise
The Audi R8 GT high-performance sports car is a driving machine with breathtaking lateral acceleration and lightning-fast, nearly instantaneous reactions. Its engine is mid-mounted close to the vertical axis; its mass is almost negligible during fast direction changes. The R8 GT is dynamic, precise and stable in almost every situation.

The chassis follows the classic racing design – double wishbones made of aluminum locate the wheels. The hydraulic, power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering has a direct 16.3:1 ratio and connects the driver closely and precisely with the road. A manually adjustable coilover suspension, which lowers the body by as much as 10 millimeters (0.39 in), is standard. Higher front and rear wheel camber rates make the handling a tick more agile than with the standard model.

The 19-inch forged wheels are 8.5 J x 19 up front and 11 J x 19 at the rear, and are shod with size 235/35 and 295/30 tires, respectively. Audi will mount 305/30 tires together with optional wheels on the rear axle upon request. Cup tires, which offer the ultimate in performance on dry roads, are available for racing enthusiasts.

Audi mounts internally ventilated, carbon fiber ceramic brake disks standard. They are extremely durable and abrasion-resistant as well as particularly lightweight. Together they weigh nine kilograms (19.84 lb) less than their steel counterparts of the same size. They measure 380 millimeters (14.96 in) in diameter up front and 356 millimeters (14.02 in) at the rear. The friction rings are bolted to the stainless steel caps via elastic elements. Red anodized aluminum brake calipers – with six pistons up front – are exclusive to the R8 GT.

The ESP stabilization program has been specially tuned to the R8 GT and can be switched into a Sport mode at the push of a button to allow spectacular, but safe, oversteer when accelerating out of a corner. The driver can deactivate the system entirely for a trip to the race track.

[Kitdy]

Audi R8 GT #3


Exclusive and dynamic: interior and equipment
At Audi, reducing weight means increasing performance and efficiency, but not sacrifice. The Audi R8 GT, which Audi sells in Germany for €193,000, comes with an automatic climate control system and power windows, a navigation system with MMI operating logic and a powerful sound system. A 465 watt, ten-channel Bang & Olufsen sound system, a CD changer and the Audi Music Interface are available as options. As always with Audi, the interior shows loving attention to detail. Rich materials spoil the occupants with a fine look and feel.

The ergonomic interior is adorned in sporty black and dark gray. The steering wheel, the headliner, the roof posts, the knee pad, the parking brake lever and the bucket seats are covered with Alcantara accented with contrasting stitching. A synthetic sharkskin-look material that feels slightly rough to the touch is applied to the bulkhead, the door liners, the instrument cowl and the dashboard. The "monoposto" – the arch in the cockpit – is made of matt carbon.

The instrument cluster features white dials with "R8 GT" badges. The newly designed selector lever is made of CFRP and aluminum; the center tunnel and the door liners sport decorative inlays in the body color. The door sills feature trims of matt aluminum decorated with the "R8 GT" logo.

A number of exclusive features are available as options for the R8 GT. Exterior options include two alternative wheels, a body-color front splitter and a CFRP engine compartment lining. Carbon elements on the doors, the tunnel, in the cockpit and on the instrument panel are available as interior options. Others include a multifunction leather steering wheel, seat belts in red, orange or gray, floor mats with the "R8 GT" logo and CFRP door sill trims illuminated in red. If desired, Audi will fit seats with carbon frames, which are somewhat lighter than the CFRP shells. The Alcantara seat covers are optionally available with an embroidered "R8 GT" logo.

A race package is available for racing enthusiasts. It includes a bolt-in roll bar in red or black, which has both road and type approval, as well as road-approved four-point belts in red or black, a fire extinguisher and a kill switch for the battery. An optional front bar module for motorsports evens includes a rotary lock for the four-point seatbelt and turns the roll bar into a full cage. Buyers looking for more comfort and convenience can choose cell phone preparation with an innovative belt microphone. Audi also offers a full leather package, control elements in leather with contrasting stitching and a cruise control system as options. The parking aid is included with the standard equipment.

[Ferrer]

I was going to ask what's the point of a Gallardo with this.

I guess the point is not wanting a stupid spoiler in the back of your sportscar.

[W.R.]

I was going to ask what's the point of a Gallardo with this.

I guess the point is not wanting a stupid spoiler in the back of your sportscar.

Unless you get an LP570-4...

[Roentgen]

LP570-4 competitor? Porsche GT3-RS?

[DesmoRob]

An R8 Superleggera....nice :D.

[pimento]

I was going to ask what's the point of a Gallardo with this.

I guess the point is not wanting a stupid spoiler in the back of your sportscar.

This will also be rarer and probably more expensive.

[LeonOfTheDead]

The Gallardo has been the mule for the R8. As simple as that.
They better do something awesome and exclusive to replace the new Murcielago, or I'm afraid Lamborghini could be left in the dust in a few years after Audi will have considered itself as an established sportscars maker.

[Ferrer]

The Gallardo has been the mule for the R8. As simple as that.
They better do something awesome and exclusive to replace the new Murcielago, or I'm afraid Lamborghini could be left in the dust in a few years after Audi will have considered itself as an established sportscars maker.
I wouldn't hold my breath...

I read somewhere that in the future Lmaborghini will abandon the clutch pedal too.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The Gallardo has been the mule for the R8. As simple as that.
They better do something awesome and exclusive to replace the new Murcielago, or I'm afraid Lamborghini could be left in the dust in a few years after Audi will have considered itself as an established sportscars maker.

Because, you know, there haven't been thousands of iterations of the Gallardo like this...

I think it's an invalid comment to think the Gallardo is simply Audi testing future R8 development - it has it's own seperate character and indeed seperate clientele.

This is a beautiful example of the aspirational Audi that is attempting to push itself further upmarket by appealing to the bedroom wall crowd - and for the most part it works. but the cynicism surrounding Lamborghini's future is not founded. the Murclielago replacement will be special, and the Gallardo replacement even moreso.

This hatred of Audi is really, really tiresome.

[Rockefella]

This hatred of Audi is really, really tiresome.

Agreed. I think people hate on Audi's not because they're bad cars, but because it's the new cool thing to do. I still fail to see what's wrong with any of Audi's models. Same price as the competition, best interiors, great engines, (imo) great styling, and so on.

[clutch-monkey]

Agreed. I think people hate on Audi's not because they're bad cars, but because it's the new cool thing to do. I still fail to see what's wrong with any of Audi's models. Same price as the competition, best interiors, great engines, (imo) great styling, and so on.

if it doesn't have an S or an R in the name they tend to be pretty shit,imo. they're like the camry of the upper class, A to B only.
cars like this R8 are pretty spectacular though, and it's always nice just to see them on the roads, which you will, because they're so much easier than the equivalent lambo to drive everyday.

[cargirl1990]

First I was like: Oh yes!
Then I was like: R u srs?
Now I'm all: *disappointed*

[VOGUE_MAN]

I'm not one to question any car maker who should choose to lose weight and add power to one of the models, but I find the body changes of this car to be ugly. I always thought of the R8 as being a good looking car, at least near that of a Maserati, but with the front and rear spoilers, rear light alterations (I think they're different) etc... I would just rather a plain R8.

[Ferrer]

if it doesn't have an S or an R in the name they tend to be pretty shit,imo. they're like the camry of the upper class, A to B only.
cars like this R8 are pretty spectacular though, and it's always nice just to see them on the roads, which you will, because they're so much easier than the equivalent lambo to drive everyday.
I'd like to test drive an R8. For the first time ever probably, it's the cheaper version of something and it seems like they did a good job with it. I'm personally willing to give it the benefit of doubt. And I liked the A2, again unlikely for an Audi it was clever car with no equivalent option in another VAG brand. A shame it sold so poorly.

However, I fail to see the point of the others. The tranverse engined cars are available cheaper in other VAG divisions, and the longitudinal engine cars fail to excite in any way. Besides, this isn't the only problem. Their customers are like those of a Ferrari, only without the brilliant car.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Audi's job is to be the aspirational VW. There isn't anything particularly wrong with that.

I see them more as a Mercedes Benz Competitor in comparison to perhaps BMW. But to be honest, most German luxury manufacturers are muddying their core brand strategies.

Audi's are certainly a more cerebral choice than a heart choice, but they're no worse than a Lexus or Infiniti.

[Ferrer]

But you see, Mercedes-Benz gives you unique engineering and the correct layout and I'm sure the cars ride better. And their costumers are somewhat nicer than Audi's (and BMW's for that matter). Maybe pretending to be sporty turns you into an imbecile, I don't know.

As for the Japanese, I'm not terribly interested in Lexus either but at least their costumers don't think they have the be all end all of sports saloons (maybe because there aren't any in Europe, but that's another matter). Concerning Datsun I disagree, altough I do think it would be better if they sold them as the Skyline, and whatever the bigger one is called.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

How can you possibly say something like a Mercedes Benz Van is a correct Layout.

Or an A-Class, for that matter.

The comment about customers is kind of irrelevant - I know more Douchebags who drive BMW's than I do Audi's. Does that make any of the cars better or worse?

As for Lexus customers and Sport Saloons...May I present the ISF?

I think you're negative experience with Audi has more to do with the idiots you associate driving with them more than the actual cars themselves. The assertion that they have the "wrong layout" is moot because hundreds of vehicles share that layout - and some of them are even sporty.

Much of the appeal of an Audi is the sure footed handling matched with luxury - not the sportiest, not the most luxurious, but the best mix between.

Mercedes Benz are cars your father drives, BMW's are driven by those who take themselves (and their ability behind the wheel) too seriously, and are nowhere near practical enough at the lower ends, Lexus' are too alternative and somewhat lacking in luxury cache...

[DesmoRob]

But you see, Mercedes-Benz gives you unique engineering and the correct layout and I'm sure the cars ride better. And their costumers are somewhat nicer than Audi's (and BMW's for that matter). Maybe pretending to be sporty turns you into an imbecile, I don't know.

As far as I'm concerned, its somewhat futile generalizing entire brands by the people that we think drive them. Everyone seems to have a habit of doing it. I've been guilty of it myself, but its not really anything fundamental to base a statement on. If you ask me, I'd say that all upper-class car brands have their stuck-up, wierdo, snob etc followers. Dicks just like being seen in nice stuff. Its not any given brand itself that markets itself to those particular people. I've had two separate BMW dealerships turn down picture taking inside their stores, while a Ferrari sales associate let me sit in, start and rev an F430 Spider in theirs. Its a mixed bag of tricks out there.

[jediali]

Audi's are certainly a more cerebral choice than a heart choice, but they're no worse than a Lexus or Infiniti.

I was thinking about this very point the other day. I think its becoming more and more evident with their changing model line up.


But you see, Mercedes-Benz gives you unique engineering and the correct layout and I'm sure the cars ride better. And their costumers are somewhat nicer than Audi's (and BMW's for that matter). Maybe pretending to be sporty turns you into an imbecile, I don't know.

really? You are better than this Ferrer. Do you hate the cars technically or there clientel? I am getting confused.

Regarding badge values you should hate Porsche too (wrong layout too). Weirdly I find Porsche drivers rather pleasant locally and eager to show they are enthusuiasts not overpaid selfish road users.


As far as I'm concerned, its somewhat futile generalizing entire brands by the people that we think drive them.

I think cars are such a massive part of our lives. I think too many people see the car as an extension of themselves. On the basis that you could not generalise people by looking at them, I dont think you can look at a car and judge the driver. Sure there are some trends but to go to beyond humour with the stereotypes is perhaps dangerous. A line for example Jeremy Clarkson sometimes treads and more often than not overshoots by a mile.

While we are here, I personally think its a bit weak to be using a car as a reflection of yourself either deliberately or sub-conciously. I would admire more the character of a person who drove a beat up micra for example and did not really care but has an awesome life. Sorry, seems like a bit of a rant there, its not suppoesed to be. And you are allowed your opinions Ferrer, no problem there.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Because, you know, there haven't been thousands of iterations of the Gallardo like this...

I think it's an invalid comment to think the Gallardo is simply Audi testing future R8 development - it has it's own seperate character and indeed seperate clientele.

This is a beautiful example of the aspirational Audi that is attempting to push itself further upmarket by appealing to the bedroom wall crowd - and for the most part it works. but the cynicism surrounding Lamborghini's future is not founded. the Murclielago replacement will be special, and the Gallardo replacement even moreso.

This hatred of Audi is really, really tiresome.

Actually, what I'm sort of complaining about now is just how they are self-celebrating the R8, without giving much credit to the fact that without the Gallardo the R8 just wouldn't exist. Also, dropping exactly the same drivetrain in the R8 from the LP560 isn't something I was hoping for.

I may dislike Audi, and I have my reasons not only based on idiots who buy them over here. I dislike their interiors, and I don't like how they drive. More precisely, I think Audis (and VAGs in general) have too hard suspensions and seats. Based on limited experience, but experience nonetheless.

If this hatred of Audi is tiresome, a blind faith on future Lamborghinis is pointless.
I'll be more than happy if they will be awesome and all, and I will more than happy if Audi will manage to produce something I car really like and appreciate. I changed my mind on many brands, for better or for worse.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Actually, what I'm sort of complaining about now is just how they are self-celebrating the R8, without giving much credit to the fact that without the Gallardo the R8 just wouldn't exist. Also, dropping exactly the same drivetrain in the R8 from the LP560 isn't something I was hoping for.

This is a fair call - don't forget your roots.

Like How Audi owns Lamborghini and without their money there would be no Gallardo. Forgive me on this but I think that kind of gives the right to put it in an R8 bodyshell and sell it for cheaper :)


I may dislike Audi, and I have my reasons not only based on idiots who buy them over here. I dislike their interiors, and I don't like how they drive. More precisely, I think Audis (and VAGs in general) have too hard suspensions and seats. Based on limited experience, but experience nonetheless.

Interesting. In my limited experience with VAG I have found the interiors to be sombre but well made affairs with mild cases of berk sometimes, but for the most part exceptionally well designed. The suspension is a common fault (and it's not exclusive to VAG, paging runflats on a BMW...) and again, you're prejudging the car based upon your image of the driver.


If this hatred of Audi is tiresome, a blind faith on future Lamborghinis is pointless.
I'll be more than happy if they will be awesome and all, and I will more than happy if Audi will manage to produce something I car really like and appreciate. I changed my mind on many brands, for better or for worse.

Blind faith it is not - Audi are nothing if not master manipulators of image, and they know full well that Lamborghini's image is one that cannot possibly be given up - the badass of the motoring world who stuck two fingers up to Ferrari and paved their own path.

If anything the fact they have a secure financial future (instead of say, a russian billionaire) cements this future even moreso.

[Ferrer]

I meant layout as in mechanical layout, not the type of bodies.

In that aspect Audis (their main range at least) are doubly wrong. First they are front wheel drive, and second they have longitudinally mounted engines which (usually) are in front in the headlamps. What that means is that you get a million miles of understeer, which isn't surefooted, it's just boring.

Another problem is the numbness of the steering. It's far too light which doesn't give you much confidence at speed. Someone said to me that this was done in part to mitigate the understeer sensation. Well, in a car that can do 250km/h I prefer some understeer rather than give up confidence in my car.

And finally there's the read, at least in models with big wheels, which simply doesn't belong in a car which can be considered a luxury saloon. Our XF, with one inch bigger wheels, rides better than the old A6 (current generation pre-facelift model) we had.

I can only see three good thing with Audis, they are undeniably quality products. They have excellent interior (if a little dull). And they are quite handsome (stupid grille aside). However, they fail at driving dynamics and the ride isn't very good either.

As far as the driving is concerned, logitudinally engined Audis simply aren't a match for a car which has a front engined, rear wheel drive layout. And yet they seem to insist on that.

The A3's problem (and I guess the A1's and TT's to a point as well), is completely different. They aren't bad cars. They have a fine mechanical layout for front wheel drive cars, which makes them less nose heavy and understeer-prone than its larger siblings, but they feel completely dull and boring. Also, they can be had much cheaper as Seats or Skodas.

And then, there's the problem with the average costumer. It's not one or the other that drives me up the wall, it's the combination of both. If Audi made a proper car, I'd happily consider it, but it seems like they can't or their costumers aren't interested in them. There are other manufacturers with image problems, but they make great cars, and I drive one of these. So it's not like anyone can accuse me of being to overtly concerned about a manufacturer's image.

I'm sorry but Audi's are like the Starbucks of the car world. And I hate Starbucks.

[pimento]

costumer... costumers

I've had some very good friends who were costumers, and I'll have you know none of them ever had an Audi. They couldn't afford one for one thing.. :p

I'm not an Audi fan in general, but I've never driven or sat in one, so I can't comment on the experience of them. I have a huge motorlust for the Ur-Quattro though, and respect everything to do with that beast and its rallying. As for the present day.. I'd test drive one if I was in the market for something like that, but I can't see myself buying one. But hey, maybe I'd be convinced..

Naww, I'd have the Jaaaaaaaaag.

[RacingManiac]

UrQuattro presents all that is wrong with the Audi layout to this day. A heavy lump(I-5, which is pretty long too) sitting entirely in front of the front axle. And its dominance in rallying was pretty much done as soon as someone else figured out how to do AWD in a more balanced mechanical layout(ie, Peugeot).

I am with Ferrer on the Audi design, though I still find their cars desirable. Though I think a majority of the reason is their marketing.

[LeonOfTheDead]

This is a fair call - don't forget your roots.

Like How Audi owns Lamborghini and without their money there would be no Gallardo. Forgive me on this but I think that kind of gives the right to put it in an R8 bodyshell and sell it for cheaper :)

I just don't like cloning things. I don't even like the fact an 8C is so technically similar to the GranTurismo, which is also why the 8C disappointed in the dynamics and weight departments.



Interesting. In my limited experience with VAG I have found the interiors to be sombre but well made affairs with mild cases of berk sometimes, but for the most part exceptionally well designed. The suspension is a common fault (and it's not exclusive to VAG, paging runflats on a BMW...) and again, you're prejudging the car based upon your image of the driver.

I remember the Passat 3B we used to have, and of course no runflats, but it still was very hard, and the steering wheel was as communicative as a rudder.
Surelly Audi's interior are well assembled, but I think the design is too flat, dark and squared. Maybe better than recent BMW's products with those small buttons and sharp edges about everywhere, but I'm always disappointed when looking or seating inside of an Audi.




Blind faith it is not - Audi are nothing if not master manipulators of image, and they know full well that Lamborghini's image is one that cannot possibly be given up - the badass of the motoring world who stuck two fingers up to Ferrari and paved their own path.

If anything the fact they have a secure financial future (instead of say, a russian billionaire) cements this future even moreso.

I'd still wait for those cars to come out. Money and technical resources don't equal right choices.

[Commodore GS/E]

I'm with Ferrer when it comes to Audi design. But i dislike Audis because of the situation here in Germany. Everybody who buys a used or new Audi does somehow think that he/ she just bought the best car of the world because it's an Audi. Many jerks drive them now, and that's highly annoying.
Apart from that, Audis have never been the peak of engineering. All their sucess was because of their quattro system. Before the Quattro came, Audis weren't even recognized by the masses. And even after the Quattro, they continued to build the most boring cars of all time. I mean, just look at the 90s Audis; they look worse than the Mercs and BMWs of their time. Since Audi became cool in the 00s, they haven't really changed their design philosophy. Single frame here, LEDs there...and the new model is ready. I would just wish they would recognize that the single frame design is growing a beard. A huge, long, white one. They simply over-stretched it.
And then, last but not least there is the engineer's point of view. The quattro awd isn't bad, but Audi has a long tradition in building nose-heavy cars. Simply look at the RS6: take away the awd, and it will absolutely die in the corners. The UrQuattro was no better. And then, there's the price. All Audis are awfully expensive, but they don't give you the sportyness of a BMW or the elegance and smoothness of a Merc. Instead, you simply get an in-your-face exterior and loads of dullness.
To sum up: i don't like Audis :(

[RacingManiac]

Recent years their powertrain is more interesting than the cars themselves. Engines like the 2.0T or the 4.2 RS4 V8 and such are good engines. Direct injection with forced induction is a recipe for a efficient engine. But again, the cars themselves are ok, if not more of a case of could be better if it was in a car in a different layout.....

[Ferrer]

The thing about the two litre engine is that it can be had in other non-Audi products, altough the high power V8 can't.

To further illustrate my point.

YouTube - Audi S4 3.0T , Ignacio Pérez, Jarama, drifting

All the engineering, all the clutch in front of the engine, all the trick four wheel drive system, and the most it can muster is the same lift-off oversteer as a much less complex conventional front wheel drive car.

[RacingManiac]

Audi's AWD is meh by modern standard. I don't think quattro does the full torque vectoring, active diff stuff like the Evo/WRX/GTR....

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I just don't like cloning things. I don't even like the fact an 8C is so technically similar to the GranTurismo, which is also why the 8C disappointed in the dynamics and weight departments.

But you must understand from an economic standpoint that some form of similarity allows these vehicles to exist in the first place. The days of standalone chassis' and engines are soon to be gone - the fact that these two vehicles have such seperate personalities despite their roots is proof positive that is no bad thing.



I remember the Passat 3B we used to have, and of course no runflats, but it still was very hard, and the steering wheel was as communicative as a rudder.
Surelly Audi's interior are well assembled, but I think the design is too flat, dark and squared. Maybe better than recent BMW's products with those small buttons and sharp edges about everywhere, but I'm always disappointed when looking or seating inside of an Audi.

BMW design is overly keen to simplify the design when in reality what's needed is intelligent responses - not a twiddly wheel.

I can't personally comment on Audi steering but what I can comment on is that a heavy FWD car with a lot of front end on it can still communicate it's intentions through the steering wheel.


I'd still wait for those cars to come out. Money and technical resources don't equal right choices.

Indeed. but a knowledge of what makes something special does - and thats something Lamborghini aren't likely to forget in the forseeable future.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I meant layout as in mechanical layout, not the type of bodies.

In that aspect Audis (their main range at least) are doubly wrong. First they are front wheel drive, and second they have longitudinally mounted engines which (usually) are in front in the headlamps. What that means is that you get a million miles of understeer, which isn't surefooted, it's just boring.

Understeer is the default choice for any manufacturer - as it is easily understood by the masses. You back off the accelerator, the car turns where you want it to go.

Is there so much wrong with something consumers can actually understand?


Another problem is the numbness of the steering. It's far too light which doesn't give you much confidence at speed. Someone said to me that this was done in part to mitigate the understeer sensation. Well, in a car that can do 250km/h I prefer some understeer rather than give up confidence in my car.

I would presume (not knowing of course) that the steering would firm up around 250kp/h.

Also, light steering is another choice of the masses - it enables sweat-free parking :)



And finally there's the read, at least in models with big wheels, which simply doesn't belong in a car which can be considered a luxury saloon. Our XF, with one inch bigger wheels, rides better than the old A6 (current generation pre-facelift model) we had.

I think we can all agree that Jaguar cars, as a default, ride better than German vehicles Full stop. Audi are amongst the worst contributors to this fact.



I can only see three good thing with Audis, they are undeniably quality products. They have excellent interior (if a little dull). And they are quite handsome (stupid grille aside). However, they fail at driving dynamics and the ride isn't very good either.

Audi are relatively good looking cars (Q7 Aside). But to lump them all as failing dynamically is a bit rich. They still drive better than most vehicles, I think you'll find.


As far as the driving is concerned, logitudinally engined Audis simply aren't a match for a car which has a front engined, rear wheel drive layout. And yet they seem to insist on that.

RWD is not a default setting for handling prowess. Not to mention the packaging challenges that go into creating a F/R car. the 1 series, as a very good for instance, I cannot fit into the back of - this is also due to the stupid banana sill and odd door opening, but when I get into the car I have little to no footwell or headroom - it's like sitting in some form of cave.

No such problems in the back of an A3.


The A3's problem (and I guess the A1's and TT's to a point as well), is completely different. They aren't bad cars. They have a fine mechanical layout for front wheel drive cars, which makes them less nose heavy and understeer-prone than its larger siblings, but they feel completely dull and boring. Also, they can be had much cheaper as Seats or Skodas.

Staid and restraint is not dull and boring.

And I don't think you can get the design of an A1 anywhere. the A3 is a tarted up Golf, for sure.


And then, there's the problem with the average costumer. It's not one or the other that drives me up the wall, it's the combination of both. If Audi made a proper car, I'd happily consider it, but it seems like they can't or their costumers aren't interested in them. There are other manufacturers with image problems, but they make great cars, and I drive one of these. So it's not like anyone can accuse me of being to overtly concerned about a manufacturer's image.

But you are. You've prejudged the owner without even thinking, asserting they know nothing about proper cars or how they should be driving simply due to their choice of car. I particularly like how you are willing to forgive one manufacturer because they make "great" cars. Great for the driver, I suppose, but what of his passengers? you know, the practical stuff that 95% of purchasers have to consider?

Every manufacturer has their douchebag driver.


I'm sorry but Audi's are like the Starbucks of the car world. And I hate Starbucks.

And I hate coffee full stop :)

[Ferrer]

I don't agree that understeer is necessarily safer. Yes, when a car understeer it is probably more intuitive what you have to do to get your car back but I doubt the average Audi or BMW driver takes the car to those limits, so in that aspect I don't think the ultimate behaviour of the car is a big deciding factor for ultimate safety and ease of use.

On the other hand, the great thing about a BMW is that you don't even need to go a million to enjoy it. It is so balanced that even at 6 or 7 tenths the car remains rewarding and enjoyable. There's a sense of continuity and flow in a rear wheel drive car that I haven't been able to find in a front wheel drive (altough that doesn't mean that some front wheel drive cars can be enjoyable).

As for space yes, the 1er is poorly packaged, but forget about it. It's an oddity, something that in this day and age should've never seen the light, and in fact BMW is going front wheel drive, so no more packagae problems in the future for it. However, from the A4 up, Audi insist with longitudinal engines, so there's no space excuse for going front wheel drive.

Still yes, there are cars that drive worse than Audis, but there are many including some costing a lot less than them that drive much better. I can understand someone wanting a 3er over a Mondeo, but an A4 over Mondeo? Why? You still get the front wheel drive, and much better space, and much greater value for money and excellent driving dynamics.

As for the A1, it's just a tarted up Fabia.

[clutch-monkey]

Understeer is the default choice for any manufacturer
heh :p

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I don't agree that understeer is necessarily safer. Yes, when a car understeer it is probably more intuitive what you have to do to get your car back but I doubt the average Audi or BMW driver takes the car to those limits, so in that aspect I don't think the ultimate behaviour of the car is a big deciding factor for ultimate safety and ease of use.

I think it's a fair comment that most people won't take the car to the maximum limit, but when driving at 8/10ths, for instance, Understeer is a safer option than oversteer for the average driver.


On the other hand, the great thing about a BMW is that you don't even need to go a million to enjoy it. It is so balanced that even at 6 or 7 tenths the car remains rewarding and enjoyable. There's a sense of continuity and flow in a rear wheel drive car that I haven't been able to find in a front wheel drive (altough that doesn't mean that some front wheel drive cars can be enjoyable).


I don't doubt BMW's are nice things to drive - we've had two in my family - but there are FWD vehicles with that sort of continuity. Many of them are french or Italian :)


As for space yes, the 1er is poorly packaged, but forget about it. It's an oddity, something that in this day and age should've never seen the light, and in fact BMW is going front wheel drive, so no more packagae problems in the future for it. However, from the A4 up, Audi insist with longitudinal engines, so there's no space excuse for going front wheel drive.

For the most part the higher vehicles are 4WD, so theres a whole different kettle of fish :)

I wonder about the future of BMW when they're willing to muddy their own brand by shifting to FWD, but thats another story altogether.


Still yes, there are cars that drive worse than Audis, but there are many including some costing a lot less than them that drive much better. I can understand someone wanting a 3er over a Mondeo, but an A4 over Mondeo? Why? You still get the front wheel drive, and much better space, and much greater value for money and excellent driving dynamics.

Why a 3er over a Mondeo, but not an A4? they're both bought for really the same reasons - brand cache, luxury accoutremont...Not many who stump for the BMW do so because it handles better - and indeed the Mondeo is no slouch dynamically anyway - neither is the A4, it's just not the best in class.

If all cars were bought for such practical reasons we'd all be driving Octavias, I think.


As for the A1, it's just a tarted up Fabia.

I suppose the shiny Pillars don't fool you :p

[henk4]

slightly off topic, but just having done several 100 kms on the Italian motorways, I can't help thinking that Audi drivers there have taken over the role that was formerly clearly played by BMW-drivers. That is, being the speeders and the pushers at any time. Contrary to that, some BMWs did overtake me but never made their presence known by intense flashing.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Understeer is the default choice for any manufacturer - as it is easily understood by the masses. You back off the accelerator, the car turns where you want it to go.

Is there so much wrong with something consumers can actually understand?

That's only if the car was understeering under acceleration. If it was under braking or just cruising at constant speed and approaching a corner, then backing off from the accelerator would create an even worse effect. In this case you have to keep the situation as constant s possible, so very slowly release the accelerator or the brake pedal, and at the same time decrease the angle of steering.

Under acceleration the situation is different and even if you still have to diminish the steering angle, backing off the accelerator helps transfering weight over the front axle which is now "less" heavier, and that's why the car is understeering in first place.

Not so simple, surely simpler than controlling an oversteering car, with people jumping on the brakes regardless of the situation.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I think the biggest risk for most people is, as you put it, lifting off when they scare themselves (or experience a dangerous situation) which they need to brake for.

Understeer is a fairly neutral response (when contained) which encourages the driver to slow down or back off the throttle. Under braking this is also relatively accepted, as greater steering inputs (again, a default response to the average driver) should see them safe.

Compare this to backing off in a RWD car and watching the tail swing around...

It's all about how the weight is getting shifted around and on which wheels the car is pressing down, I suppose.

[Ferrer]

For the most part the higher vehicles are 4WD, so theres a whole different kettle of fish :)
Well actually, I think that if you really want an Audi what you should do is choose the smallest engine possible and go for front wheel drive options. This way you reduce the mass up front and complexity to a minimum.

All longitudinal engined Audis I've driven were four wheel drive, so I can't comment how the two wheel drive versions drive (altough I'm gussing similarly) and they still are nose heavy, understeery things. So for Audis four wheel drive is useless. :)

I wonder about the future of BMW when they're willing to muddy their own brand by shifting to FWD, but thats another story altogether.
Well, we wanted discussion, didnt' we? Maybe it's time for another thread... ;)

Why a 3er over a Mondeo, but not an A4? they're both bought for really the same reasons - brand cache, luxury accoutremont...Not many who stump for the BMW do so because it handles better - and indeed the Mondeo is no slouch dynamically anyway - neither is the A4, it's just not the best in class.
Because it is rear wheel drive.

I'm not discussing why people buy them , we all know the buy them for the wrong reasons, my point concerns us the enthusiasts. I've tried the three drive types (front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and four wheel drive) and personally if you are interested in driving the best is to multitask.

I still think that there are plenty of front wheel drive cars which are excellent and a lot of fun, and some that are even tail happy beasts (like the Mini). But all the hype rear wheel drive has is entirely justified in my opinion. Ultimately it feels more composed and natural.

On that basis I understand someone of us wanting a BMW (or a big Datsun, or even a Merc or a Lexus), but if you've got to be stuck with front wheel drive, why would you want to pay more for an Audi when a Mondeo does the same (or arguably better) for less?

If all cars were bought for such practical reasons we'd all be driving Octavias, I think.
Or Audis.

I mean take the Delta for instance. It isn't very good. It's a bit of a boat and the steering is terrible. However it's a charming little car (actually it's a charming big car, but that's another story). Everytime I drive it, I enjoy it. I can't quite explain why, but may be it's the detailing, the attention to detail, the comfort, the great engine, or what but it's there.

The BMW is the complete opposite. It's not the most characterful car in the world, but as far as the driving is concerned it's brilliant. For the money you simply can't do better. And the Jag and the Mini are a bit of both, good and interesting.

Audis seem to be none of this. Yes they are well built, and fast, and have good interiors, and are quite handsome, and they have tenacious grip. But the leave me completely cold. They don't feel interesting. Or brilliant. And that's possibly the ultimate problem for me in the end. They are completely average.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I think the biggest risk for most people is, as you put it, lifting off when they scare themselves (or experience a dangerous situation) which they need to brake for.

Understeer is a fairly neutral response (when contained) which encourages the driver to slow down or back off the throttle. Under braking this is also relatively accepted, as greater steering inputs (again, a default response to the average driver) should see them safe.

Compare this to backing off in a RWD car and watching the tail swing around...

It's all about how the weight is getting shifted around and on which wheels the car is pressing down, I suppose.

Sort of, yes.
The problem with basically all fwd front engined cars is that the tail tends to be a little too light compared to the rest of the car. Perhaps it is not the case with something as large as an A6 (given we are talking about UAdis after all), but on cars like the A3 and its competitors it is something be aware of.

The first gen FOrd Focus even if extremely funny to drive for someone, was a good example of what lack of weight at the rear (and the right suspensions setup) can do even without having an rwd car. I know for a fact that my mother's FIat Stilo is far to happy to engage a lift off oversteering even if it was originally understeering.
That may have something to do with me at the wheel and not my mother, but that's a different story.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Well actually, I think that if you really want an Audi what you should do is choose the smallest engine possible and go for front wheel drive options. This way you reduce the mass up front and complexity to a minimum.

That mantra of lightest and least complicated could be applied to any car, I suppose.


All longitudinal engined Audis I've driven were four wheel drive, so I can't comment how the two wheel drive versions drive (altough I'm gussing similarly) and they still are nose heavy, understeery things. So for Audis four wheel drive is useless. :)

Audi's are curious vehicles that seem to follow the law of diminishing returns - the more money you pay, and the more stuff you get, the worse the car is.

Wheels Magazine tested the A4 range during it's Car of The Year megatest in 2009 and found that the base models (with the light engine and FWD) were the best set up - and that the Quattro system did little to cure handling bugs.

So who knows, maybe FWD is the better option :)


Well, we wanted discussion, didnt' we? Maybe it's time for another thread... ;)

Maybe that is - I'm sure it's already been argued to death :)


Because it is rear wheel drive.


Sorry, that's not something I think your average buyer would weigh up.


I'm not discussing why people buy them , we all know the buy them for the wrong reasons, my point concerns us the enthusiasts. I've tried the three drive types (front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and four wheel drive) and personally if you are interested in driving the best is to multitask.

I don't think practical reasons are the wrong reasons at all.

From an enthusiast perspective I think a 4WD car is more likely the go but Enthusiasts probably aren't buying 3 Series because they're enthusiasts - they're buying it because they have to get a sensible car but don't want to give up driving something that rewards driver input.


I still think that there are plenty of front wheel drive cars which are excellent and a lot of fun, and some that are even tail happy beasts (like the Mini). But all the hype rear wheel drive has is entirely justified in my opinion. Ultimately it feels more composed and natural.

It's not hype so much as the way things used to be. It's little wonder you're such a fan considering it's long history and a shift against it by modern manufacturers (Mazda and BMW in particular excluded).

Using my limited driving experience I can tell you a FWD car can, and indeed does, feel as composed at anything below 7/10ths. Beyond that isn't somewhere the average driver should go.


On that basis I understand someone of us wanting a BMW (or a big Datsun, or even a Merc or a Lexus), but if you've got to be stuck with front wheel drive, why would you want to pay more for an Audi when a Mondeo does the same (or arguably better) for less?

As the practical and imperceptable reasons below stated. You look at RWD as the deal breaker, most look at it as a sweetener.

And wasn't there recently a study that suggested 80% of BMW buyers thought the car was FWD?


Or Audis.

I mean take the Delta for instance. It isn't very good. It's a bit of a boat and the steering is terrible. However it's a charming little car (actually it's a charming big car, but that's another story). Everytime I drive it, I enjoy it. I can't quite explain why, but may be it's the detailing, the attention to detail, the comfort, the great engine, or what but it's there.


I can't personally vouch for your feelings on the Delta, but that car had better have some amazing charm to it to overcome what can only be described as diabolical styling and, by your own admission, failing quality control.


The BMW is the complete opposite. It's not the most characterful car in the world, but as far as the driving is concerned it's brilliant. For the money you simply can't do better. And the Jag and the Mini are a bit of both, good and interesting.

For my money I'd go used rather than buy something new, but for most people justifying the expense of buying a 3 over a Mondeo has little to do with the handling prowess and everything to do with a blue and white badge.

Not denying the 3 is a brilliant car, it's just awkwardly styled, spartanly equipped for the price, and not as good a value prospect as it's rivals.


Audis seem to be none of this. Yes they are well built, and fast, and have good interiors, and are quite handsome, and they have tenacious grip. But the leave me completely cold. They don't feel interesting. Or brilliant. And that's possibly the ultimate problem for me in the end. They are completely average.

The best analogy I could come up with is a Kitchen Appliance.

The Jag is your Aga cooker. Old school, reliable, wood fired and traditional. In recent times they've tried to add gas hotplates to it, and soon the aga will be replaced completely.

The Audi is your Convection Oven. Technically efficient, brutally quick and cooks your food to crisp perfection, but the fine details of cooking, the minor adjustments made to the flame or temperature perhaps aren't there. And while this means some amateur cooks can do some amazing meals, it frustrates the Chef as he/she feels they do not have total control.

The BMW is a gas Cooktop. Infinitely adjustable, mega flames, more than a little dangerous in the wrong hands, but popular with both amateurs and professionals alike. There is a real possiblity you're going to get burnt if you don't know what you are doing, but in the hands of a professional the end result is spectacular.

Am I making sense? :D

[Ferrer]

It's not hype so much as the way things used to be. It's little wonder you're such a fan considering it's long history and a shift against it by modern manufacturers (Mazda and BMW in particular excluded).

Using my limited driving experience I can tell you a FWD car can, and indeed does, feel as composed at anything below 7/10ths. Beyond that isn't somewhere the average driver should go.
I have limited driving experience too, but while all of the good front wheel cars I've driven (Golf GTI MK II, Puma 1.7, Cooper S) have been indeed excellent, they simply aren't as good as a proper rear wheel drive car.

I wouldn't refuse a car because it is front wheel drive, possibly after the 1er we'll maybe get something with the front wheels driven, it's just that all else equal, rear wheel drive is just superior to front wheel drive as far as driving dynamics are concerned.

It's not only the balance and the poise, but the steering too. Of course, I may biased because I've only drive good rear wheel drive cars, maybe I'd think that a Crown Victoria is an appalling car if I drove one, but there also plenty of bad front wheel drive cars on the market.

The best analogy I could come up with is a Kitchen Appliance.

The Jag is your Aga cooker. Old school, reliable, wood fired and traditional. In recent times they've tried to add gas hotplates to it, and soon the aga will be replaced completely.

The Audi is your Convection Oven. Technically efficient, brutally quick and cooks your food to crisp perfection, but the fine details of cooking, the minor adjustments made to the flame or temperature perhaps aren't there. And while this means some amateur cooks can do some amazing meals, it frustrates the Chef as he/she feels they do not have total control.

The BMW is a gas Cooktop. Infinitely adjustable, mega flames, more than a little dangerous in the wrong hands, but popular with both amateurs and professionals alike. There is a real possiblity you're going to get burnt if you don't know what you are doing, but in the hands of a professional the end result is spectacular.

Am I making sense? :D
Well, I'm useless in the kitchen... :D

[LeonOfTheDead]

Jag + wood fired: I'm in.

[Kitdy]

And wasn't there recently a study that suggested 80% of BMW buyers thought the car was FWD?

That was a survey conducted at the behest of BMW by some company, just around the time BMW announced it would be producing FWD cars.

I would say it's legitimacy is suspect.

[Ferrer]

And IIRC it was 80% of 1er buyers.

[Kitdy]

And IIRC it was 80% of 1er buyers.

Yes, and the in the completely random survey they contacted 5 female 1 series owners in California and asked what were the driven wheels.

[Ferrer]

And actually here BMWs have a bit of a widowmaker reputation (especially from the 80's and early 90's) because they are rear wheel drive. The other day a family friend was asking me for advice on his new car and when we discussed the 3er Coupe he asked if it wouldn't be dangerous because it was rear wheel drive. Funnily enough his current car is a Lexus IS, which is a rear wheel drive car and he didn't seem to be concerned about that at all.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It's a Toyota - chances are he hasn't driven it properly before.

RWD is a default choice for a lot of families here in Australia thanks to the Commodore and Falcon - I guess thats why I don't see it as much of a novelty as some Europeans do, I suppose - but even so, they can, to the untrained, be deathtraps.

I suppose thats the same with any vehicle though - Bobcats included.

[henk4]

I once had a case of heavy oversteer in a rear wheel driven .....Lada.

[Ferrer]

I'd say that the Mini oversteered more than the BMW does.