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Matra et Alpine
05-24-2004, 04:49 PM
Those who've been around will know I'm into rallying and have navigated since the tender age of 15.

A few have shown interest in learning and taking part in rallying and dI"ve been PM'ed by a few ( some VERY insistent :) ) asking on how to get started.

In this sub-thread we'll cover the basics of navigating as it can be started many years before you are old enough to drive and compete behind the wheel. So as a start into motorsport, it's a great entry.

The next few threads will cover the basics of navigating and a Q&A thread and then I'll be setting navigational challenges for you to test the skills learned.

All I ask is that if anyone ever DOES become a WRC nav then remmeber me and get me some freebie parc-ferme passes for NZ and Monte :)

Hopefully it'll be interesting and in the way of things on the 'net, if not, it will quickly dies out :)

GT500
05-24-2004, 04:51 PM
So wait....we navigate around Rally courses and wha....?
Oh haha, so it's s guide to rally navigating and stuff.....sounds cool! :)

Nigel
05-24-2004, 04:57 PM
Rallying, to me is the best kind of racing. It is too expencive for me to get into now, but I can see myself getting into it with a little more money.

Im totally game for a series of nav lessons!

Mustang
05-25-2004, 12:38 AM
Those who've been around will know I'm into rallying and have navigated since the tender age of 15.

A few have shown interest in learning and taking part in rallying and dI"ve been PM'ed by a few ( some VERY insistent :) ) asking on how to get started.

In this sub-thread we'll cover the basics of navigating as it can be started many years before you are old enough to drive and compete behind the wheel. So as a start into motorsport, it's a great entry.

The next few threads will cover the basics of navigating and a Q&A thread and then I'll be setting navigational challenges for you to test the skills learned.

All I ask is that if anyone ever DOES become a WRC nav then remmeber me and get me some freebie parc-ferme passes for NZ and Monte :)

Hopefully it'll be interesting and in the way of things on the 'net, if not, it will quickly dies out :)


Wahoo finally :D :D ypu can count me in for this, as you already know i am startig navigating now and as soon as i get a bit of training i will be ok for the real thing (as long as they accept my licence application :o )


All I ask is that if anyone ever DOES become a WRC nav then remmeber me and get me some freebie parc-ferme passes for NZ and Monte :)

i will be sure to let you in, or atleast get you special VIP passes :) ;)

EvilPaladin
05-25-2004, 12:40 AM
I'm in ! :)

Spastik_Roach
05-25-2004, 12:43 AM
Can a 11 year old start this? :D

I'm really into rallying, I don't think i'd ever turn really professional, as I want to be a lawyer, but rather as a hobby, it'd be awesome.

Mustang
05-25-2004, 01:23 AM
Can a 11 year old start this? :D

I'm really into rallying, I don't think i'd ever turn really professional, as I want to be a lawyer, but rather as a hobby, it'd be awesome.


Sure you can stat to learn, i dont know if the rules are different in your country, but in Britain you have to be 12 years old to be albe to enter Road rallies as a nav and 16 to enter Stage rallies as a nav.

Raod ralles

These are rallies that take place on roads, normally during the middle of the night. You are given a checkpiont that you need to get to and a certain time barrier that you are supposed to arrive in. during this time that you have been allocated you hve to plan your was (with the drivers help) and make sure that you know what too look out for (markers or signs that you need to record down what it says on them). When doing road rallies you are supposed to stay within the speed limit, and you can get penalised if you ge to your markers to early because this usually means that you have been doing faster than the speed limit :( , you are also penalised if you miss out markers along the way, or if you miss out clues.

Road rallies are not about who is the fastest although it helps :) it is mainly a test of nav and map skills. this is ehy it is important for a nav to be alert at all times during a road rally and NOT to lose his place on the pace notes :p



Introduction

All manner of events are run under the umbrella title of `rallies', including economy runs and treasure hunts. However, the most popular are simply known as road rallies.

The essence of this type of event is to maintain a time schedule through a series of control points by following route instructions which often put a great emphasis on navigation.



These events take place on normal public roads, almost always at night. All competing cars must be properly taxed, tested and insured.


Major UK Events

No national championship is permitted.
However, most Regional Associations and motor clubs run one or more championships.


Minimum Requirements

Any standard road car.

2 crew members with valid club membership cards.

Ordnance Survey maps.

The driver must be at least 17 years old and must hold a valid RTA Driving Licence.
The navigator must be at least 12 years old.


All these are for British events

Mustang
05-25-2004, 01:25 AM
Stage rallies


Introduction
These are far more expensive than road rallies, with more emphasis upon car preparation, speed and driver ability, rather than navigational skills.

Most famous rallies are special stage events, like the Wales Rally GB, Britain's round of the FIA World Rally Championship.

At a national level the British Rally Championship is the most significant challenge and incorporates rounds across the country.



The basis of such events - the special stage - is a stretch of road closed to all other traffic, which must be covered at a high average speed.

In most of Great Britain (the exceptions are Northern Ireland, Scotland, the Isle of Man, the Isle of Mull, the Channel Islands and the roads used by the SEAT Jim Clark Memorial Rally), public roads are not available for this purpose, so special stage events use private land, frequently Forestry Commission roads or disused airfields.



Linking the special stages are sections of public road, where the required average
speed is low (usually 30mph or slower).

Because of these sections, all competing cars must be properly taxed, tested and insured.



Major UK Events

British Rally Championship (Events in England, Scotland, Wales and Isle of Man).

Wales Rally GB (FIA World Rally Championship) in November

If you require further information about the Wales Rally GB please contact the Rally Gb at: [email protected]


Minimum Requirements


The Driver must be at least 17 years old and must hold a valid Road Traffic Driving Licence. Before you can apply for your first Stage Rally Driver Licence, you must do the following:

1. Purchase a "Go Rallying" starter pack from MSA which includes a VHS video, a copy of the Motor Sports Yearbook, the necessary application form, plus various other useful items.

2. Complete a one-day MSA course for novice drivers, run only by members of the British Association of Rally Schools (BARS). Contact your local school for costs.

When you have obtained a Competition Licence, you will require the following: a car with added safety equipment (rollcage, fire extinguishers fireproofing, etc) and an MSA Log Book; a navigator or co-driver who is at least 16 years old and holds a valid club membership card; crash helmets and flame-resistant overalls.


Rally Driver Schools

All rally schools teach driving techniques for special stage rallying.

A one-day course offers a chance to try rallying in someone else's car, to discover whether you enjoy the sport before spending your own money!

Some schools offer courses for front-, rear- and four-wheel drive cars, or for driving on asphalt and loose surfaces. A few schools offer courses for co-drivers, teaching advance skills such as pacenotes and services planning.

Click here for schools who are members of the British Association of Rally Schools (BARS) and are registered with the MSA

Rally Driving School Assessment

The driving assessment part of the test is quite straight forward. The Assessor will be looking for a safe and competent attitude behind the wheel rather than any advanced rallying techniques (hand brake turns etc.).

For example, the following points will be assessed:

Driving position
Hold on steering wheel
Use of brakes
Car positioning
Throttle control
Anticipation of hazards
Driving attitude & confidence on the relevant stage surface
Drives a "clean" Special Stage at a "reasonable" speed without hitting any marker cones.
Car sympathy

It is assumed that applications may not have had any formal rally driving training before this assessment.



all of these are for British events

whiteballz
05-25-2004, 01:45 AM
there is a road rally in australia called the targa tasmanian rally, its a road rally, its FASTEST CAR WINS. roads are closed, and its a set stage, style of nav is up to the racers, there are some with the traditional "5 right over yump" etc people, and then there are, " medium right over lump" and THEN there are go to your right, NO you OTHER RIGHT IDIOT! *tyres screech* BANG type lol.

its a very large rally, with classics and modern etc, peter brock ran a monaro cv8 last year i belive, but was smacked down the feild by all the AWD skylines and porsches. not to mention STI's! lol, its a very windy island, so navagators have their work cut out for them.

my dad and i are going to buy a rally/hillclimb car soon, and ether way we dont want to go over 6 grand aussie$$, so we are a bit limited for choice, any sugestions?

Spastik_Roach
05-25-2004, 01:52 AM
Mini or an old Escort maybe?

I'm lucky as I happen to have Manfield (racing track) in my town, and they have a racing school there, not rallying, but surely wouldnt do any harm... I'm sure I wouldnt have to go far to find a decent rallying school.

Mustang
05-25-2004, 02:01 AM
there is a road rally in australia called the targa tasmanian rally, its a road rally, its FASTEST CAR WINS. roads are closed, and its a set stage, style of nav is up to the racers, there are some with the traditional "5 right over yump" etc people, and then there are, " medium right over lump" and THEN there are go to your right, NO you OTHER RIGHT IDIOT! *tyres screech* BANG type lol.

its a very large rally, with classics and modern etc, peter brock ran a monaro cv8 last year i belive, but was smacked down the feild by all the AWD skylines and porsches. not to mention STI's! lol, its a very windy island, so navagators have their work cut out for them.

my dad and i are going to buy a rally/hillclimb car soon, and ether way we dont want to go over 6 grand aussie$$, so we are a bit limited for choice, any sugestions?


if it is on set stages then it is prob more of a stage rally.

what sorts of championships are there over there?. here we are set up into different classes, F1000, 1300cc, super 1600cc, 2 Litre, 3 litre, group N and WRC cars.

I hape to be entering the F1000 next year when i am old enough to drive on the stages so untill then i am doing nav runs to get sused to the stages, and what rallying is really like:), the F1000 is for 1.0L cars only and it has got limitations on tyres and you are not allowed to upgrade your engine to make it fair and cheap:)

Another thing that you could do is buy a cheap(ish) kit car for about £1500 and then buy a motorbike with a 1250cc engine and make a little rocket ship:D


have a look theough these pics you might get a few ideas http://www.britishrally.com/gallery/index.asp
most of these cars will be way to exoensive but there might be a few in your price range :)

Mustang
05-25-2004, 02:03 AM
Mini or an old Escort maybe?

I'm lucky as I happen to have Manfield (racing track) in my town, and they have a racing school there, not rallying, but surely wouldnt do any harm... I'm sure I wouldnt have to go far to find a decent rallying school.


the best thing if you are serious would be to find your local club, and get them to help you. they might even take you to rallies to watch or maybee help out like my club does:)

whiteballz
05-25-2004, 02:08 AM
there are most classes in the ROC (rally of canberra) classic (fiat arbarth sweet, rs200, etc) and there is group N and group A, super 1600, and others. fairly cool set up aswell...

a mini... i guess, but still, its alot of money, we are moving to sydney in a couple of months, so i think we will wait till we are up there...

Mustang
05-25-2004, 02:15 AM
there are most classes in the ROC (rally of canberra) classic (fiat arbarth sweet, rs200, etc) and there is group N and group A, super 1600, and others. fairly cool set up aswell...

a mini... i guess, but still, its alot of money, we are moving to sydney in a couple of months, so i think we will wait till we are up there...

that is prob a good idea, i suppose a mini be good,there was a guy in a rally club near ours and he put a 1400cc motorbike engine in his and made it RWD, it beat everything in its class easilly and... well it was just amazing, so fast.

it will be good fun though if you get it running on the hill climb, good luck to ya :)

taz_rocks_miami
09-04-2004, 02:10 PM
Sounds way cool Marta, count me in too!! I'll try not to fall behind cuz of work.

Matra et Alpine
09-04-2004, 02:22 PM
Sounds way cool Marta, count me in too!! I'll try not to fall behind cuz of work.
No problem, just start at stage 1 and try not to look at the solution at the end of the thread.
I'm still trying to get time to get the next stage up, hopefully soon ( coz another person is pressuring me to get my finger out :) )

Mustang
09-05-2004, 12:37 PM
going with the title of the thread

Why.....not post stage 9 when you get chance because i know that you are busy :) ;)

QuattroMan
10-18-2004, 10:32 AM
count me in....i like to see it happen

spi-ti-tout
12-31-2004, 04:02 PM
Hey BIG rally fan here. Wanna be a WRC driver when I become big but I doubt I'll ever to be able to become one(Personal/Family stuff) :(

I'll join in and see if I can make it :)

(now that I finally found Matra's rally forum[i was too proud to ask :o) i don't need that last bit of my signature :) )

Mustang
12-31-2004, 04:23 PM
Hey BIG rally fan here. Wanna be a WRC driver when I become big but I doubt I'll ever to be able to become one(Personal/Family stuff) :(

I'll join in and see if I can make it
(now that I finally found Matra's rally forum[i was too proud to ask :o) i don't need that last bit of my signature :) )


well this will only help you with road rallying mainly and the map skills

when you are readin stage maps they wont look like that

ill try and get an eg for you

anyways road rally would be a good way to learn im prob gonna try nd do a few road rallies along wiht my 205 series

anyways good luck mate :)

Mustang
12-31-2004, 04:26 PM
here yare

http://www.scmc.co.uk/Past%20events/Mini%20Tempest%202001/Pictures%20&%20Maps/2001%20FINAL%205%20&%206.jpg

spi-ti-tout
12-31-2004, 04:32 PM
well this will only help you with road rallying mainly and the map skills

when you are readin stage maps they wont look like that

ill try and get an eg for you

anyways road rally would be a good way to learn im prob gonna try nd do a few road rallies along wiht my 205 series

anyways good luck mate
Oh thanks a lot mate :)

The thing is im here in UAE, they have no road rally or ANYTHING of the sort, only the Xtreme Desert Rally Challenge. :(

The Xtreme Desert Rally is ONLY for the best of the best(Pro's) as Rallying in the desert is no small thing. Harder than rallying on Gravel or the sort cause any minute your tires can sink in the sand or the ngine blow up due to the heat, so there's no way i can get in there :(

Besides I was already on Skills(couldn't understand a thing- no, not your fault Matra i'm just bad in maths ). I'll try to make the most of it

Good luck to you too :)

Mustang
12-31-2004, 04:36 PM
its not depending on maths that much


youll get it in the end

spi-ti-tout
12-31-2004, 04:40 PM
its not depending on maths that much


youll get it in the end
Maybe my mind's just not working at 3:44 in the morning....

Went to stage one..looks like chinese....couldn't undertand a thing

lukeh
04-18-2005, 06:03 AM
Im a huge rally fan but when it come to navigating im hopeless so i think i will stick to the driving and engeering side of rallying

Matra et Alpine
04-18-2005, 06:42 AM
Im a huge rally fan but when it come to navigating im hopeless so i think i will stick to the driving and engeering side of rallying
ANyeon hoping to compete in rallying HAS to aprpeciate the needs of the co-driver adn the skills in developing and reading pace notes that produce the fastest stage times. I'd recomend learning them or you'll find you cant' go as fast as you think you should :)
And even on navigational where the map solving and reading is more important than pace notes, sometimes the nav will get it wrogn or struggle. THEN a good driver helps.
It REALLY annoys me that WRC have taken co-drivers OFF the official name on the window of the car. It's a TEAM effort and now folsk dont' even get the simple reminder of equal treatment :)

spi-ti-tout
04-22-2005, 08:55 AM
ANyeon hoping to compete in rallying HAS to aprpeciate the needs of the co-driver adn the skills in developing and reading pace notes that produce the fastest stage times. I'd recomend learning them or you'll find you cant' go as fast as you think you should :)
And even on navigational where the map solving and reading is more important than pace notes, sometimes the nav will get it wrogn or struggle. THEN a good driver helps.
But all in all its all up to the driver. I mean, the driver has ATLEAST 20 feet to see the next corner or something. Even if the co fails, the driver still knows where hes supposed to go. He can go just as fast because he can see infront. Atleast thats what I think

But if anyone can't read a map then that kinda screws up his chance of being a rally driver. It might be logical, but if he isnt used to it then it isn't his fault.

Matra et Alpine
04-22-2005, 09:12 AM
But all in all its all up to the driver. I mean, the driver has ATLEAST 20 feet to see the next corner or something. Even if the co fails, the driver still knows where hes supposed to go. He can go just as fast because he can see infront. Atleast thats what I think
That's fine assuming you are only doing aabotu 40 mph - where your stopping distance and turn-in woudl cope with only seeing 20 feet.
IF the corner ahead is a blind 180 then you need to start swinging the car in a pendulum motion from abotu 30 metres back !!

If it's a corner on a crest then BEST you could do would be to go over at 20mphg unless you've a good nav awho can advise and call the best.

Next time you're out in a car as a passenger, play this little game. Keep your eyse closed, ask the driver to say when they are 20 feet from every corner and ONLY THEN open your eyes and judge what you woudl do. Your heartbeat will hit the top fairly quickly :) THEN imagain playing that game with YOU driving. THAT about sums up serious rallying !!!!

On being just as fast without a nav, then it's a BIG difference.
You see it with experienced navs competing at a lower level whilst bringin on a driver. They can go faster then the experienced driver, less experienced nav combo :)

If you listen to a nav you'll hear they're NOT calling out the NEXT corner but in reality are actually calling oiut what comes AFTER the next corner. That allows the driver to plan to setup the car to make best speed throguh a series of corners. You can't do that on your own :)

But if anyone can't read a map then that kinda screws up his chance of being a rally driver. It might be logical, but if he isnt used to it then it isn't his fault.
If that's the case he shodl be a circuit driver and forget rallying :)

spi-ti-tout
04-22-2005, 12:46 PM
That's fine assuming you are only doing aabotu 40 mph - where your stopping distance and turn-in woudl cope with only seeing 20 feet.
IF the corner ahead is a blind 180 then you need to start swinging the car in a pendulum motion from abotu 30 metres back !!

If it's a corner on a crest then BEST you could do would be to go over at 20mphg unless you've a good nav awho can advise and call the best.

Next time you're out in a car as a passenger, play this little game. Keep your eyse closed, ask the driver to say when they are 20 feet from every corner and ONLY THEN open your eyes and judge what you woudl do. Your heartbeat will hit the top fairly quickly :) THEN imagain playing that game with YOU driving. THAT about sums up serious rallying !!!!

On being just as fast without a nav, then it's a BIG difference.
You see it with experienced navs competing at a lower level whilst bringin on a driver. They can go faster then the experienced driver, less experienced nav combo :)

If you listen to a nav you'll hear they're NOT calling out the NEXT corner but in reality are actually calling oiut what comes AFTER the next corner. That allows the driver to plan to setup the car to make best speed throguh a series of corners. You can't do that on your own :)

If that's the case he shodl be a circuit driver and forget rallying :)
Thanks for taking the time to clear all that up Matra :)

But then again....how fast ARE you going to be on that sort of rough terrain??

And, even if you understand the importance of a nav, which I do now, what difference does it make if you're a driver? Going on and handling the wheel has got to be on the other side when compared with reading notes abd mapes.

Will try the game, cheers :)

Adn one last thing, isn't it better if navs call out the next corner instead of the one after? Drivers have to look at the scene infront and get through the terrain while making sure that they tyre stays in place while having the time and all sorts of other things to worry about. I can imagine it would be muddlesome to give in advance and put extra burden on them?

Matra et Alpine
04-22-2005, 12:54 PM
Thanks for taking the time to clear all that up Matra :)

But then again....how fast ARE you going to be on that sort of rough terrain??
Even on the Scottish forests you'll get up to over 100mph.
Approaching a blind corner over a crest with the nav screaming flat out takes balls :)
On clear straights in the 100 Lakes they got up to 130mph - on unmade forest tracks !!!!
Cornering speeds vary according to the zeverity of the corner obviosuly but going round a corner over 70mph with no visbility beyond the apex is common :)

And, even if you understand the importance of a nav, which I do now, what difference does it make if you're a driver? Going on and handling the wheel has got to be on the other side when compared with reading notes abd mapes.
2 things, it enables the driver and co-driver to work together to produce the best pace notes and to undestand the problems if things aren't goign smoothly. The same is true for every good nav, they HAVE to have tried driving at some time to grasp the other side.

Adn one last thing, isn't it better if navs call out the next corner instead of the one after? Drivers have to look at the scene infront and get through the terrain while making sure that they tyre stays in place while having the time and all sorts of other things to worry about. I can imagine it would be muddlesome to give in advance and put extra burden on them?
If the driver can't set the car up for the corner FOLLOWING this one then they're nto going fast enough :)
Equally if the second corner is close to and tighter than the first corner than it's actually quicker to enter the first corner SLOWER.
Some drivers have the nav call 3-4 corners ahead.
A good driver then builds a "nap" in their mind of what the road "looks like" and drive through them to the quickest.
Yep, rallying is a much harder car driving competition than every other :)

Mustang
04-22-2005, 01:03 PM
And, even if you understand the importance of a nav, which I do now, what difference does it make if you're a driver? Going on and handling the wheel has got to be on the other side when compared with reading notes abd mapes.


firstly they wont let you enter the rally

secondly the co-driver tells the driver where to go, like some say which side of the road to be on for the corner, they tell you the speed / gear etc

there needed

spi-ti-tout
04-23-2005, 05:25 AM
Even on the Scottish forests you'll get up to over 100mph.
You're giving special preferences to the Scottish forest aren't you? :D
Are they something like the Finnish forests? With clear gravel and trees often surrounding you and things like that.


Approaching a blind corner over a crest with the nav screaming flat out takes balls :)
On clear straights in the 100 Lakes they got up to 130mph - on unmade forest tracks !!!!
Cornering speeds vary according to the zeverity of the corner obviosuly but going round a corner over 70mph with no visbility beyond the apex is common :)
Woah......130 :eek:
Nice stuff. Didn't know all this
Thanks :)


2 things, it enables the driver and co-driver to work together to produce the best pace notes and to undestand the problems if things aren't goign smoothly. The same is true for every good nav, they HAVE to have tried driving at some time to grasp the other side.
I used to ponder about navs (when I had not much access to rally except from talking to a friend, who didn't know much about it anyway) and came to think navs were only navs because they hadn't reached the driving stage yet basing it on the thought "Who doesn't want the thrill of driving?". Looks like I was going the opposite way :o


If the driver can't set the car up for the corner FOLLOWING this one then they're nto going fast enough :)
Equally if the second corner is close to and tighter than the first corner than it's actually quicker to enter the first corner SLOWER.
Some drivers have the nav call 3-4 corners ahead.
A good driver then builds a "nap" in their mind of what the road "looks like" and drive through them to the quickest.
A bit muddling but all good. I guess the driver has to have to good imagination and a good sense of humour after all of that :)


Yep, rallying is a much harder car driving competition than every other :)
But its also the most fun. All that power, control, adrenaline, speed, drift, hairpins, straights, 90's, 180's, and the feel, the exitement the passion and the soul of rallying distinguish it from any other :)

Rally Rocks!!
Wouldn't you agree?

Matra et Alpine
04-23-2005, 05:34 AM
You're giving special preferences to the Scottish forest aren't you? :D
That's the experience and the rest of Britain.
Can only say about Finnish, Swedish, French Italian from the coverage adn second hand !!

Are they something like the Finnish forests? With clear gravel and trees often surrounding you and things like that.
Finnish surfaces are a little smoother than SCottish and less muddier than Welsh and most British. Scottish forest tracks have a lot of hard rock/gravel and can be quite large with smaller infill. So it can get VERY rough.
Finnish looks more smaller rocks and 'dustier'.

Woah......130 :eek:
Sadly a nav doesnt' have the option and has to keep looking. Sometimes you dont' want to - coz you're not in control :)

I used to ponder about navs (when I had not much access to rally except from talking to a friend, who didn't know much about it anyway) and came to think navs were only navs because they hadn't reached the driving stage yet basing it on the thought "Who doesn't want the thrill of driving?". Looks like I was going the opposite way :o
Skill for sure comes into it.
A lesson I learned quite early on with the Escort was I didn't have the outright skill and speed to be in the top 10 as a driver - lack of experience, I made this call when I was 17 ( shoudl have waited longer :) )
BUT moeny also has a large part and a lot of drivers switch to nav as they can't fund their own car. THEN they find they are bloody good navs and stick with it as "career".
Many do both at clubman level.

Rally Rocks!!
Wouldn't you agree?
What -- there is another form of motorsport ? where ?? :) :) :)

spi-ti-tout
04-23-2005, 06:28 AM
That's the experience and the rest of Britain.
Can only say about Finnish, Swedish, French Italian from the coverage adn second hand !!
Finnish surfaces are a little smoother than SCottish and less muddier than Welsh and most British. Scottish forest tracks have a lot of hard rock/gravel and can be quite large with smaller infill. So it can get VERY rough.
Finnish looks more smaller rocks and 'dustier'.
The deserts of UAE are real killers. A true test of keeping your car in control in some of the most slippery (and most of the times deep!!) terrain in the world. A shame they never have WRC here. It would be an ideal place, with lots of sand, lots of money and lots of fans :(


Skill for sure comes into it.
A lesson I learned quite early on with the Escort was I didn't have the outright skill and speed to be in the top 10 as a driver - lack of experience, I made this call when I was 17 ( shoudl have waited longer :) )
BUT moeny also has a large part and a lot of drivers switch to nav as they can't fund their own car. THEN they find they are bloody good navs and stick with it as "career".
Many do both at clubman level.
Atleast you got to rally :)
Just as a side note, how much are WRC Navs paid considering how much the driver is paid?


What -- there is another form of motorsport ? where ?? :) :) :)
Other forms of 'wannabe' motorsport sure. But nothing just like or close to rally :)

Matra et Alpine
04-23-2005, 10:15 AM
The deserts of UAE are real killers. A true test of keeping your car in control in some of the most slippery (and most of the times deep!!) terrain in the world. A shame they never have WRC here. It would be an ideal place, with lots of sand, lots of money and lots of fans :(
We see the rally series over here sometimes.
Not the same, get it wrong in most of the desert stages and you get stuck.
Get it wrong in a forest and you bounce off the trees - IF YOU'RE LUCKY :)
The safari rallies are another thing though adn I woudl really liek the East African to be returned to the WRC :)

Just as a side note, how much are WRC Navs paid considering how much the driver is paid?
The WRC approach that it is the DRIVER that matters - note the co-driver name isnt' the same size of character or location as the driver anymore - and so the co-driver salary dropped.

Moya split from Sainz when he moved to Citroen because he was only going to be paid HALF of what he got whilst the pair were at Ford.

So it's less now than it used to be :(

Still a LOT though.

But at the bottom of the ladder, a nav woudl normally be expected to pay their way :(

Mustang
04-23-2005, 10:36 AM
But at the bottom of the ladder, a nav woudl normally be expected to pay their way :(

entery fee's, race suit, helmet, overnight place to stay in my case ;p

Matra et Alpine
04-23-2005, 10:37 AM
entery fee's, race suit, helmet, overnight place to stay in my case ;p
The plus is your costs are capped.

A driver/owner risks writing off the car each time - especially if they've a dodgy nav :)

Mustang
04-23-2005, 11:11 AM
The plus is your costs are capped.

A driver/owner risks writing off the car each time - especially if they've a dodgy nav :)


you mean kinda like me with a nav who has as much experience at co-driving as i do at sky diving lol

and more fool me i was aiming for Grizedale as my firs rally :p

hmn.. dont think that a national forest is quite the place to start, maybee 3 sisters first :) or even weeton

spi-ti-tout
04-25-2005, 05:27 AM
We see the rally series over here sometimes.
Which country, UAE? Do you ever watch the Desert Extreme Rally Challenge?


Not the same, get it wrong in most of the desert stages and you get stuck.
Get it wrong in a forest and you bounce off the trees - IF YOU'RE LUCKY :)
My idea is the real test lies in two things, not getting yourself into a mess and getting out of it once you're there. Compared to Acropolis, it must be almost the same. Too many tyres going down in Acropolis. And, maybe the drivers might appreciate a change of scenery :)


The safari rallies are another thing though adn I woudl really liek the East African to be returned to the WRC :)
Have to agree there. Kenya is an absolutely beautiful place with all its calm scenery (not just talking as a kenyan, but generally). Why did the FIA pull it out of the map?


The WRC approach that it is the DRIVER that matters - note the co-driver name isnt' the same size of character or location as the driver anymore - and so the co-driver salary dropped.
Moya split from Sainz when he moved to Citroen because he was only going to be paid HALF of what he got whilst the pair were at Ford.
So it's less now than it used to be :(
Still a LOT though.
But at the bottom of the ladder, a nav woudl normally be expected to pay their way :(
It was just what was on my mind lately. Why? The windows looked better with both the names and its appreciation to the true team effort. It's not fair atall :(. I bet WRC wouldn't be as enjoyable if they weren't any navs because the drivers would be crashing everytime.

Maybe all fans of WRC can protest to get navs their honourable names on the windows back :)

Matra et Alpine
04-25-2005, 06:21 AM
Which country, UAE? Do you ever watch the Desert Extreme Rally Challenge?[/QUOTE[
Middle East Rally Championship.
Bin Sulayem always had some good kit and drove the terrain well.
[QUOTE]Have to agree there. Kenya is an absolutely beautiful place with all its calm scenery (not just talking as a kenyan, but generally). Why did the FIA pull it out of the map?
The WRC ahnged their requriemnets for rallies to be aruond a centre and to have reduced stage duration - all in the name of "safety' theou clealry the first is abot the press and hospitality . So the East African coudlnt' fit into their mould. Neither coudl the British rally which is why it is now a poor copy of it's once great self - 3 days long NAD night stages !!

Maybe all fans of WRC can protest to get navs their honourable names on the windows back :)
SOME teams have continued to put the co-drivers name on the bodywork below the window :)

spi-ti-tout
04-25-2005, 07:57 AM
Middle East Rally Championship.
Bin Sulayem always had some good kit and drove the terrain well.
Yeah. I was too small to understand what rally really was when he was doing his stuff and so I missed most of it. But I do have some good stuff. I read an article once when he had just retired in the local magazine. A few quotes:

"Ford is the only one really serious about rally. No one else really cares"

"My back was semi-paralysed and my body was aching. Somehow I kept on going on and cried when I won the rally"

He probably only said the first one because he was using a focus. But I can't really say.

He was a good driver though. I guessed he was getting old but still had that rally passion in him, so he organized the Desert Extreme Rally Challenge.


The WRC ahnged their requriemnets for rallies to be aruond a centre and to have reduced stage duration - all in the name of "safety' theou clealry the first is abot the press and hospitality . So the East African coudlnt' fit into their mould. Neither coudl the British rally which is why it is now a poor copy of it's once great self - 3 days long NAD night stages !!
Woah...3 days long!!! :eek:
That's incredible. If they wanted though, I expect they coud shorten stages such as these(?). They could have it in one place only instead of going round the whole country.


SOME teams have continued to put the co-drivers name on the bodywork below the window :)
Still isn't the same though.
But atleast its there :)
I still say we should protest :D

Mustang
04-25-2005, 09:31 AM
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spi-ti-tout
04-25-2005, 12:26 PM
Does this mean someones buying me a ticket?? :confused: :D

Mustang
04-25-2005, 12:39 PM
Does this mean someones buying me a ticket?? :confused: :D


ifd you wanna pay me back for it when you get here

spi-ti-tout
04-25-2005, 01:08 PM
ifd you wanna pay me back for it when you get here
If you'll gimme a job

Mustang
04-25-2005, 02:23 PM
If you'll gimme a job


there are a few going at the moment

spi-ti-tout
04-26-2005, 04:29 AM
there are a few going at the moment
Anything that fits 13?

Mustang
04-26-2005, 09:21 AM
Anything that fits 13?


yeah sure

Matra et Alpine
04-26-2005, 09:35 AM
Anything that fits 13?
Micheal Jackson ?????

spi-ti-tout
04-26-2005, 09:40 AM
Micheal Jackson ?????
You naughty soul :)

What can a 13 year old work as in UK?
I'm curious because we aren't allowed to work here, not even in the summer holidays :(

Mustang
04-26-2005, 09:55 AM
You naughty soul :)

What can a 13 year old work as in UK?
I'm curious because we aren't allowed to work here, not even in the summer holidays :(


shops, paper round, random things

Matra et Alpine
04-26-2005, 09:58 AM
I'm curious because we aren't allowed to work here, not even in the summer holidays :(
All 16 year olds and younger need to have permits before they can work.
13 to 16 year olds can work for two hours on school days, with restrictions on the type of work allowed, including bans on work in commercial kitchens or using dangerous machinery.
On Saturdays, 13 to 14 year olds can work for five hours and 15 to 16 year olds can work up to eight hours.
Technically you cant' be emplyed below the age of 13 ( or maybe it's 14 ) under EC directives.

spi-ti-tout
04-26-2005, 12:46 PM
All 16 year olds and younger need to have permits before they can work.
13 to 16 year olds can work for two hours on school days, with restrictions on the type of work allowed, including bans on work in commercial kitchens or using dangerous machinery.
On Saturdays, 13 to 14 year olds can work for five hours and 15 to 16 year olds can work up to eight hours.
Technically you cant' be emplyed below the age of 13 ( or maybe it's 14 ) under EC directives.
Whats the average monthly/weekly pay for a 13 year old?

And what about the summer?

Mustang
04-28-2005, 07:04 AM
All 16 year olds and younger need to have permits before they can work.
13 to 16 year olds can work for two hours on school days, with restrictions on the type of work allowed, including bans on work in commercial kitchens or using dangerous machinery.
On Saturdays, 13 to 14 year olds can work for five hours and 15 to 16 year olds can work up to eight hours.
Technically you cant' be emplyed below the age of 13 ( or maybe it's 14 ) under EC directives.

so that means that by working 15 hours on a weekend i would be breaking the law :p

oh well im 17 in a few weeks :p

dydzi
05-07-2005, 11:53 AM
thats interesting, over here you are not allowed to work until you're 18. if you're 13-18, you can just work in summer holidays or ...hmm, i don't know how to translate it... you take a job but it have to be a job without phisycal effort (like mine, i am a journalist on polish motorisation websites)

taz_rocks_miami
05-07-2005, 12:56 PM
From what I've seen in Mexico so far, the law says you can't work untill you're 18 becuase all employees have the right to free medical care and their bosses have to submit the forms to the Social Security system. But in reality, I've seen kids od all ages working in shops and heard od them working in factories, illegal but Mexico gives new meaning to the word "impunity"http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tam.honeyman/smilies/col4/pissed.gif