Top Gear - Racist Comments

[f6fhellcat13]

.....

I was surprised by the amount of vitriol directed towards Mexicans in The News. I understand that they like to maintain a non-PC image and jibes about Americans, Germans, Japanese, Liverpudlians, Spanish, Aussies etc... are enjoyed by most and reinforce this. Last night, though, it seemed like there was a bit more going on than just poking fun. It also shocked me because the stereotypes that they were using were tired American ones that I guess I was surprised to hear from Johnny Foreigner.
... and it should be pointed out that the "Mexican" food they referred to is almost undoubtedly American. :p

Either that or my Southern-Californian white guilt is playing up again.

[RacingManiac]

I also thought it was borderline actual racism than just harmless poking fun....was a bit hard to watch at that point actually...

[Matra et Alpine]

^^ here too. BUT I think that maybe I'm well acquainted (experienced) US history on the subject.

Could be a deal they're doing with the US Top Gear ... :) ... eg piss off the US audience with blatant racism in the UK version so they all switch to the US one. Top Gear wins either way.

Some folks I've touched bases over here didn't see it "that bad" as "he does it with everyone else".
As f6 alluded too .... jsut we dont harbour that "white guilt"

Am expecting BBC's knuckles to be rapped by someone.
Clarkson to get loads of coverage and no doubt he is about to launch a new DVD and will love the free publicity :(

[RacingManiac]

Interesting to see though that we all kinda picked up on it....me being an Chinese Canadian living in US usually is not that racially sensitive but it was kinda odd to see them kinda just roll along with that so casually...

[Matra et Alpine]

The BBC's Top Gear has been criticised by the Mexican Ambassador to the UK for a series of 'outrageous, vulgar and inexcusable insults'.
His Excellency Eduardo Medina-Mora Icaza has written to the corporation to complain about the comments made in an episode broadcast on January 30, and demanded the show's hosts, Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond, make a public apology.

Was inevitable :)


BUT .......

This is even better !!!!
Jeremy Clarkson fuels TV sexism row by dropping Richard Hammond in it over obscene comment | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1351670/Jeremy-Clarkson-fuels-TV-sexism-row-dropping-Richard-Hammond-obscene-comment.html)

[TVRs4eva]

Most of you have probably heard about this by now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW0x_M_xrm0




The Mexican ambassador to the UK is up in arms after the host of popular automotive show Top Gear went on a racist rant while reviewing a Mexican-made car. Referring to the automobile as “lazy” and “feckless”, emcee Richard Hammond took it further, describing the people as being clothed with blankets with a hole in the middle and later even calling them overweight. Later, the conversation switched to food, and he described the cuisine as “refried sick”.

According to BBC, ambassador Eduardo Medina Mora wrote a letter to the BBC calling the remarks “xenophobic” and “humiliating”. The possibility of controversy was openly brought up on the show after the initial tirade, but co-host Jeremy Clarkson said he wasn’t worried because the ambassador was likely snoring in front of the television.

Sure, the presenters make edgy comments all the time... but usually they're actually funny, and rarely are they blatantly racist. What do you guys think?

[Rockefella]

Saw this the other day. I LOVE racist jokes as much/more than the next guy but they crossed the line. It wasn't funny after the first 15 seconds.. it was just off-base. Plus, the central Americans and MExicans I know work their asses off.

[coolieman1220]

clarkson would not be clarkson if he did not do things like that.

[TVRs4eva]

Plus, it's hilarious to hear Brits criticizing ANY culture's food... let alone Mexico's. Yum.

[TVRs4eva]

clarkson would not be clarkson if he did not do things like that.

True, but aren't Hammond and May supposed to balance it out (sort of)? I thought Hammond's comments were the most spiteful of the three

[demonrunning07]

Not to mention that VW, BMW, and Nissan all have factories in Mexico.

[DesmoRob]

They obviously aren't aware of Mexican work ethic. Of course there are always good and bad apples of every group, but coming from a country that pays their people peanuts, Mexicans generally know a thing or two about perseverance and determination to get ahead. TopGear is a little far away from the Mexican border though, so how would they know any better than what they may have seen in movies :rolleyes:.

[coolieman1220]

There was one episode where they called albanians the mexicans of europe for cheap labor...

[Ferrer]

True, but aren't Hammond and May supposed to balance it out (sort of)? I thought Hammond's comments were the most spiteful of the three
Hammond is overrated. And he isn't funny.

[Kitdy]

Hammond is overrated. And he isn't funny.

Entirely correct. I don't care for him. May and Clarkson are the ones.

I know it is all an act, but Hammond is the most forced and unnatural, and he seems like the least "car guy" of the three.

[clutch-monkey]

I know it is all an act, but Hammond is the most forced and unnatural, and he seems like the least "car guy" of the three.

he has heaps of cars/bikes/projects..

[Kitdy]

he has heaps of cars/bikes/projects..

I know he does. I just get that vibe from him, it is probably wrong.

I have wondered before if he was seriously into cars before being on TG.

[Ferrer]

To me, Jame is the proper car journalist and Clarkson is wel.. just Clarkson.

Hammond is neither as funny as Clarkson nor as informative as May. So he is a bit of a nothing, to me.

[pimento]

He presented Motorweek (Men & Motors TV series) in 1998 apparently. I'd say he would have had to have been into cars before TG, watching the early episodes it doesn't seem like he's any less knowledgeable or into them than now.

As for the racism thing, it does seem that this time it was a bit too over the top. It was probably partially a reaction to that guy that got fired for making a suggestive to a lady or whatever it was - they support him, so I guess they wanted to make another shitstorm in protest or whatever. Lets be honest - if they fire one of them, they'll all take Top Gear to another channel (in all but name obv). I'd reckon the BBC wouldn't really want that.

[Rockefella]

Hammond is most definitely a car guy. He's also a pompous jerkoff from what I've read. Off camera he is hated by staff/interns.

[csl177]

Just another reason this show doesn't do anything for me. Infantile crap from them is standard fare. The chat sessions with audience standing around must be the oddest format on the tube... and while May and Hammond throw the first bombs out (in comparison, Clarkson is reserved), it's the audience reaction that's most telling. Change the word "Mexican" to kike, nigger, slope, spic; pick your favorite slur and see if they laugh along with it. :(

I don't give a crap about political correctness, but some words matter. Think the TG franchise shows could get away with it?

EDIT: BBC has pulled the vid from YouTube.

[fpv_gtho]

I know he does. I just get that vibe from him, it is probably wrong.

I have wondered before if he was seriously into cars before being on TG.

May and Clarkson present themselves more as your average person. To me, Hammond's always been presented as a metrosexual. And what kind of person gels their hair with a greasy hand.

[Magnum9987]

I'm a little late to see the vid, so I really can't comment on the content of their recent triad, I will have to wait until they show it on BBCA....


As for Hammond, if you read his column in the magazine, you could tell hes a real enthusiast. He frequently talks about working on his cars, buying cars, etc. I've also read one of his books where he talks about how he got involved with cars and bikes early on and how hes been a car guy since he was a kid. So no one can deny he is a true car guy. He may not be as informed as May or as Funny as Clarkson, but I feel he represents the average car guy more so than either May or Clarkson, May being the "typical" enthusiast, Clarkson the "rich" bloke who could buy almost anything he wants (he owned Mercedes', Aston MArtin, Lamborghini, and a Ford GT to name a few).

[VOGUE_MAN]

I think this was really just a calculated publicity stunt. Mexico isn't part of their audience and nor does any Mexican have any control or influence in UK broadcasting or motoring.

[Matra et Alpine]

>>>> oops, wasn't thinking :) Moved the discussion on the racism to here from the TG thread .... and forgot that the chronological order woudl mean it woudl come before the rest. So post #6 is the original one that started this thread. THose prior are from the other discussion. Sorry for any confusion. But reckoned best to keep this all in one place :)

[Man of Steel]

To me, both Top Gear and Clarkson are overrated.

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^ true, to me Glenn Beck and Gordon Ramsay are too.
It's an entertainment show :)

[f6fhellcat13]

Thanks for moving, Matra.

I think the best racial comedy contains a dollop of self-deprecation, whether you are a part of the group you are making fun of, or by making fun of them you are implicitly making fun of your own racial/class/whatever group. e.g. Usually when Clarkson says something outlandish, you know that he knows in the back of his mind that he's a buffoon.



To me, Jame is the proper car journalist and Clarkson is wel.. just Clarkson.

Hammond is neither as funny as Clarkson nor as informative as May. So he is a bit of a nothing, to me.

While I agree with you, it should be noted that though we don't think about like we do with the spinoffs they still have character spaces that they need to fill. This makes their onstage personas forced to some extent, and while Hammond may be the most obvious Clarkson, to a small degree, and May, to a larger degree, are guilty as well. May's pedantry/OCD can be overbearing and forced at times and I feel like there's a lot more of a speedfreak in him than we're allowed to see.
Hammond is also pidgeonholed into the job of a 40-some-year old pandering to the TG production crew's slightly skewed view of "the youth." Though he is certainly the most in the wrong in this current instance he is critical to the personality balance on TG.

[Badsight]

^^^ true, to me Glenn Beck and Gordon Ramsay are too.
It's an entertainment show :)
well for the first 3 seasons they tried to be serious video journalists

TG got really big as the internet reached critical mass

[Ferrer]

While I agree with you, it should be noted that though we don't think about like we do with the spinoffs they still have character spaces that they need to fill. This makes their onstage personas forced to some extent, and while Hammond may be the most obvious Clarkson, to a small degree, and May, to a larger degree, are guilty as well. May's pedantry/OCD can be overbearing and forced at times and I feel like there's a lot more of a speedfreak in him than we're allowed to see.
Hammond is also pidgeonholed into the job of a 40-some-year old pandering to the TG production crew's slightly skewed view of "the youth." Though he is certainly the most in the wrong in this current instance he is critical to the personality balance on TG.
I agree that the three characters are, to a degree, made up for the show. And especially as the series has progressed the acting has become more and more forced.

But even so, the one that feels more artificial to me is Hammond's. Sometimes his alter ego feels like an annoying, envious twat. Let me put it that way, I'd watch a Clarkson TV car show and I'd watch a May TV car show, but I wouldn't watch a Hammond TV car show.

[Matra et Alpine]

IT does seem to be Hammond's "style" as he plays a similar buffoon like approach in "Total Wipeout" in the UK.

In it's way it is mildly humourous and maybe UK viewers see more in Hammond as we have the full context of his persona with that great game show (:)) and his other 'science' show "Brainiac"

[NSXType-R]

Yes, for some odd reason, I don't enjoy watching Top Gear anymore.

Hammond's acts were always a bit forced, I remember the South America special that they had where Hammond was driving the Toyota FJ and he blatantly let it roll down the mountain. It wasn't funny and he made a big deal out of it.

Add the fact that I saw the whole bit about Mexicans, it really was uncalled for.

I'm somewhat glad I don't have time for Top Gear.

[ScionDriver]

I thought it was outrageous, I tend to believe, mostly from what I've seen on TG and other such shows that there is a lot of racial hostility in Britain but it really surprised me for how long they went on.

And also, it wasn't even what I usually think of as stereotypes of Mexicans. I understand that yes those stereotypes existed back with like Speedy Gonzalez and such but nowadays I thought Mexicans were seen as very hard workers. That was my feeling anyway.

[Matra et Alpine]

The "racial hostility" in the UK is over played by the media in the US and the willingness for right wing media to host the WORST of our nationalists !

WHat is there does tend to be targetted more closely and at local issues and not as shotgun as TG did.

Remember the Mexican stereotype most of the UK play off is the one in cheeck and chong movies and old tv series and cartoons. :)

[TVRs4eva]

Oh, well it's all good now :rolleyes: :


"Our own comedians make jokes about the British being terrible cooks and terrible romantics, and we in turn make jokes about the Italians being disorganized and over dramatic; the French being arrogant and the Germans being over organized," the statement read. "We are sorry if we have offended some people, but jokes centered on national stereotyping are a part of 'Top Gear's' humor."

What a bunch of bullsh!t

[kingofthering]

It did feel a bit over-emphasized as opposed to the usual off-handed, "Yeah, you fat Americans blah blah blah hilarious joke!" dig.

[Matra et Alpine]

I think that's what got me on it this time.
A short one-liner MIGHT be funny but seeing all three pitch in at such a level I think was the tunrign point for me.

Mind you they ahve a go at Morris Marina owners more regularly :) :)

[Clivey]

Personally I think some people are far, far too sensitive and go way over the top regarding political correctness. I honestly think that the comments regarding Mexico is an example of JC & Co. lashing out against the PC culture. Comments could have been made about the French, Germans or Yanks just as easily as the Mexicans. - I think the presenters deliberately wanted to cause a stink so that they can illustrate how precious, sensitive and ridiculous society is becoming.

I find the "You can't say / think that!" culture far more offensive than any stereotypes spoken in jest, including ones made about my background (which is a good job really as I'm half Scottish :D). - If you haven't got the common sense / intelligence to distinguish between a joke and a malicious comment, go and live in a hole somewhere away from the rest of society because you'll never be happy until everything is sterilised , you're wrapped in cotton wool and everyone else is miserable. You're probably the same kind of person that wants every speed limit dropped to 10-mph and alcohol consumption, sex & fun to be outlawed.

If you read some of their books, or look into their lives in more detail, you'll find that all 3 TG presenters are quite enlightened when it comes to history, politics, world affairs etc. and the "racist" gags they make on TV are just a silly bit of fun.

[Kooper]

Personally I think some people are far, far too sensitive and go way over the top regarding political correctness. I honestly think that the comments regarding Mexico is an example of JC & Co. lashing out against the PC culture. Comments could have been made about the French, Germans or Yanks just as easily as the Mexicans. - I think the presenters deliberately wanted to cause a stink so that they can illustrate how precious, sensitive and ridiculous society is becoming.

I find the "You can't say / think that!" culture far more offensive than any stereotypes spoken in jest, including ones made about my background (which is a good job really as I'm half Scottish :D). - If you haven't got the common sense / intelligence to distinguish between a joke and a malicious comment, go and live in a hole somewhere away from the rest of society because you'll never be happy until everything is sterilised , you're wrapped in cotton wool and everyone else is miserable. You're probably the same kind of person that wants every speed limit dropped to 10-mph and alcohol consumption, sex & fun to be outlawed.

If you read some of their books, or look into their lives in more detail, you'll find that all 3 TG presenters are quite enlightened when it comes to history, politics, world affairs etc. and the "racist" gags they make on TV are just a silly bit of fun.

Agreed.

I think everyone watching should know that it was an attempt at humour. It might not have been very effective, at least to the general audience, but sure seems like they found it funny among themselves.

I also fail to see how poking fun at a specific nationality can be seen as racist to be honest.

[Matra et Alpine]

I think Clive, it was the AMOUNT of it and the "ferocity" which over-stepped the humour mark on this occasion.
It started out the "usual stuff" and amusing in it's anachronistic way - they've become a stereotype of themselves in a way - but took it too far and I think rightly expected to apologise for the excess .... and equally stand up for and defend the start of it :)

[henk4]

Personally I think some people are far, far too sensitive and go way over the top regarding political correctness. I honestly think that the comments regarding Mexico is an example of JC & Co. lashing out against the PC culture. Comments could have been made about the French, Germans or Yanks just as easily as the Mexicans. - I think the presenters deliberately wanted to cause a stink so that they can illustrate how precious, sensitive and ridiculous society is becoming.

I find the "You can't say / think that!" culture far more offensive than any stereotypes spoken in jest, including ones made about my background (which is a good job really as I'm half Scottish :D). - If you haven't got the common sense / intelligence to distinguish between a joke and a malicious comment, go and live in a hole somewhere away from the rest of society because you'll never be happy until everything is sterilised , you're wrapped in cotton wool and everyone else is miserable. You're probably the same kind of person that wants every speed limit dropped to 10-mph and alcohol consumption, sex & fun to be outlawed.

If you read some of their books, or look into their lives in more detail, you'll find that all 3 TG presenters are quite enlightened when it comes to history, politics, world affairs etc. and the "racist" gags they make on TV are just a silly bit of fun.

we here may have the intelligence to distinguish between jest and offense, but a large part of the modern simple population would swallow the TG jokes as the gospel truth, without being able to make that distinction, in the mean time promulgating prejudice which is a rather destructive characteristic of modern society.

[Kitdy]

we here may have the intelligence to distinguish between jest and offense, but a large part of the modern simple population would swallow the TG jokes as the gospel truth, without being able to make that distinction, in the mean time promulgating prejudice which is a rather destructive characteristic of modern society.

All under the guise of free speech and anti-Political Correctness.

Top Gear are free to say what they want, but I think that they display poor judgment when they make some generalization (I find it funny - racism can be).

What bother me particularly about this current manufactured fiasco is that Mexico is a country that has such a hard time of things. Joking that Mexicans are lazy angered me. In one of my political science courses, we looked into the maquiladora situation in Northern Mexico and it was extremely upsetting. Labour is typically female and these women suffer horrible abuses and work exceptionally long hours and are often in very violent communities. They live in shacks, barely scrape by to provide for their families, and in general, have terrible standards of living.

Whether or not a joke at these people's expense is fit to run on TV is one question (I strongly feel that free speech is crucial in liberal democracies), but to defend their behaviour by saying they are attacking the PC culture (and nanny state in general) is not really a valid argument to me. Part of free speech is knowing when not to say something. I think that the criticism that TG are receiving for this is pretty reasonable. Should they not do this in the future? I am not sure. If you do not like what you see, do not watch.

I can see how a complication arises when you realize that TG is broadcast on a publicly owned station. In short, it is best that if you have these opinions that you share them in private, and that censorship - in my eyes - is not really desirable, perhaps baring extreme circumstances (calls to incite violence being one of them potentially).

[f6fhellcat13]

I think everyone watching should know that it was an attempt at humour. It might not have been very effective...


I think Clive, it was the AMOUNT of it and the "ferocity" which over-stepped the humour mark on this occasion.

I can't remember the exact quote but something like; "It starts being offensive when it stops being funny" suits this situation well.
If they had left it as a single gag, as Matra said, and moved on it would have been been just another Top Gear jibe, but when they started kicking a dead horse by belaboring the joke the humor was lost.

[Clivey]

we here may have the intelligence to distinguish between jest and offense, but a large part of the modern simple population would swallow the TG jokes as the gospel truth, without being able to make that distinction, in the mean time promulgating prejudice which is a rather destructive characteristic of modern society.

Why should we have to legislate for, or pander to, the lowest common denominator?

What I mean is: Some idiots and, let's not pull any punches, a**holes, will always deliberately manipulate anything you say to suit their agendas anyway. I could say "On the whole, Italians are very nice people" but if you look hard enough, you'll find some loon who accidentally or deliberately interprets that as something offensive. - For proof see how religious extremists manipulate the texts of the Qur'an or how lawyers manage to trick a court of law into letting an obviously guilty person walk free. Just because some prats will misinterpret quips or otherwise manage to screw things up doesn't mean that we should have to dumb our whole society down to suit them. - If we followed that kind of thinking to the inevitable conclusion, we'll never progress as a species because we'll be too frightened to do anything for fear of offending some precious dimwit. If we'd have though like that in the past, we'd all still be living in caves, scratching around in the dirt.

[henk4]

Why should we have to legislate for, or pander to, the lowest common denominator?



because the lowest common denominator is usually a much larger share of the population than we would like it to be.

Can you produce any form of added value derived from the critisized comments other than that they serve the aplomb of the TG presenters?

[Matra et Alpine]

Clive "misinterpret" is an unusual term in this respect I think.

I dont think any interpretation was present.
A cheap joke was made ... and midly humourous in racial/national stereotype fashion ... but THEN it was built on and made more extreme and continued beyond the funny stage.

I was always taught a simple tool to aid wider appreciation of issues like this......

WHen someone makes a joke of or at a class or type of person or group THEN imagine your mum was one of "those" and ask yourself if you think she woudl be "Happy" to hear/read those words and comments.

You rightly raised the legal siode of the debate and I'm not sure anyone is advocating imprisonment for Clarkson -- well not for this anyway :) But a recognition that there ARE limits and that these by definition are subjective is important I think and so individuals have to realise when they've crossed that subjective line.


oh and ( THANK God ) we live in societies where proof of guilt is required ... no assumption can be permitted.
Guilt has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt.
So what you see as lawyers "cheating the system" is they are testing that reasonable doubt and when "obviously guilty" go free it's because the doubt was found.
I'd NEVER want it to be any other way. Because then you or I may be arrested for implications from posts here and imprisoned with no chance of defence on facts rather than opinion or belief.

[henk4]

în short, people these days can get away with blatant insults, in a society that still calls itself civilised.

[Clivey]

What bother me particularly about this current manufactured fiasco is that Mexico is a country that has such a hard time of things. Joking that Mexicans are lazy angered me.

So anything slightly risqué should be censored? Please.

In the UK, we don't have a culture of being racist towards those of South American origin as much as some in the US (probably because Mexico's not closely proximate to the UK, we don't get many Mexican / Hispanic immigrants and the typical British racist is too ignorant to know anything about those countries :D).

Mexico isn't usually a "target" or butt of racist jokes here, which made the TG presenters' comments all the more unusual - something which should have been an indicator to the enlightened that there was more going on that just casual overt racism.


In one of my political science courses, we looked into the maquiladora situation in Northern Mexico and it was extremely upsetting. Labour is typically female and these women suffer horrible abuses and work exceptionally long hours and are often in very violent communities. They live in shacks, barely scrape by to provide for their families, and in general, have terrible standards of living.

The Irish potato famine was also pretty bad - but it doesn't mean that all jokes featuring Paddy and Murphy are off-limits. ;)


(I strongly feel that free speech is crucial in liberal democracies), but to defend their behaviour by saying they are attacking the PC culture (and nanny state in general) is not really a valid argument to me. Part of free speech is knowing when not to say something.

Again, the manner and way in which the comments were made, and the emphasis placed on them should have been a clue to read between the lines. However, British humour, especially the style practiced by Clarkson & Co, is often obscure therefore I'm not really surprised to hear that some (and I have to say especially foreigners) took the comments at face value.


I think that the criticism that TG are receiving for this is pretty reasonable. Should they not do this in the future? I am not sure. If you do not like what you see, do not watch.

I can see how a complication arises when you realize that TG is broadcast on a publicly owned station. In short, it is best that if you have these opinions that you share them in private, and that censorship - in my eyes - is not really desirable, perhaps baring extreme circumstances (calls to incite violence being one of them potentially).

Do you think for one minute that everyone concerned with making those comments didn't think about the reaction they would receive? it was calculated - they want to make a point, further emphasised by their choice of guest on Sunday's show - Mr. Ross - who was recently sacked for making inappropriate comments on the radio. They were even cracking jokes about not mentioning Mexico, not causing controversy etc.

It does seem that this wind-up is really having the desired effect, as it has brought a lot of stupidity (zealot liberals) out of the woodwork.;)

[Niko_Fx]

Saw this on another site... does anybody have the link to Clarkson's comments?

http://i.imgur.com/mN3MB.jpg

[whiteballz]

Awesome response by Clarkson.

I think the world needs more people with his outlook.

[DesmoRob]

^^ call me ignorant, but I LOLd at that lol. The man makes a good point.

[f6fhellcat13]

His point is indeed well-made and applies very nicely to 99% of the bullsh*t lobbed at Top Gear. However, in all the examples he gives the perceptive among us can tell that things are being said in good fun, however, in this specific instance Hammond (especially) seemed to immediately and viciously go for the throat. A lot less poking fun than usual, and a lot more poking with a sword.
Maybe I'm just not perceptive enough to get the subtext here.

[henk4]

it is telling that Mexicans always are at the forefront in the olympic discipline which is called "quick-walking". So his question at the end of his story is b.s.
The point he is trying to make is that there is a specific type of English humor. The next point he is trying to make is that he and his collegues are good at producing that. I think in this subtle transition he goes terribly wrong. I can quote many examples of English Humour that I like, but his is generally below standard.
So if he is trying to sell his insults as British Humour, (and subsequently accuses others of having no sense of humour at all) he fails to make his point.

[Matra et Alpine]

It's an article which will be funnier to racists ( with a small 'r' we all have a little racism in all of us) and provide support to their attitudes, which I think is where Clarkson shows his lack of intelligence :(

Failing to even CONSIDER the other side of the argument put to him.

But that's why he's fun to read .... but only hope NEVER Lead :)

To reflect another side .. HE got all protective when the Isle of Man residents protested and complained about HIS attitude when he moved there. MANY friends on the island were talling me it as it was for the real locals and he did NOTHING to try to see their points until he realised that money was never going to sway the Manx government :) ( Well not the relatively small amount he has for an island incomer :) )

[crisis]

It's an entertainment show :)yep. It’s taken me until just a few months ago to really start watching. I enjoy their contrived journeys probably the most. I know its 99% act but it is entertaining. Ironic that we have a similar Aussie Rules "Footy Show" here that is the same. 99% "entertainment" and 1% footy. In this case however the pretentious wankers on it (who are not funny or entertaining for me) preclude me bothering with it. It is popular though.

[crisis]

^^ call me ignorant, but I LOLd at that lol. The man makes a good point.

It’s pretty much true that humor almost always must make fun of someone else. Either their bad luck or a characteristic (or perceived one). And in most cases the more exaggerated the funnier in. Taken this way all jokes are in bad taste to some extent. I do question just how well poms take being called poms. I rekon I could get hit if I tried it on a pom I wasn’t acquainted with. Let’s face it they have been busily flogging the sh!t out of each other for a few thousand years at least.

[pimento]

The point isn't that they took the piss out of some Mexicans... it was that they belaboured the point far beyond what was necessary to make the joke. Sure, ho ho ho, racial related piss taking towards your nation of birth. But then I will emphatically state it again, as will my cohorts in this endeavour. And then reiterate this way, and another, and then we shall all agree with each other that you're shite. Ho ho ho.

It was amusing the first time; once you hit the seventh, you're just being two and a half men.

[Matra et Alpine]

crsis ... if you lot would stop throwing away Ashes matches *I* would get back to calling them POMS too :)

[DesmoRob]

It’s pretty much true that humor almost always must make fun of someone else. Either their bad luck or a characteristic (or perceived one). And in most cases the more exaggerated the funnier in. Taken this way all jokes are in bad taste to some extent.

Its true. The only problem with using the media to joke around like TopGear does is that you get a lot of people upset by not being politically correct, or in this case for taking a jab at someone's nationality.
Jokes will always have a place in our world, but they will also have a time. Typically that time and place is between friends that enjoy having a good laugh at each another's expense.
Most people function the same in that regard. Just for an example, I know I can say from personal experience that I don't care how much fun I get made of for being German by any of my friends. In fact, they can do it all day long if they want. However, if some random person on the street decided to call me a Nazi, then chances are I'd get a little upset depending on my mood that day.
That's why I can understand that people get offended when jokes are made about them. They only get offended because the jokes are made by people that don't know them personally and/or haven't even seen them in their lives.
That said, of course its still good to have a sense of humor about it, but everyone has a bad day sometimes, and being poked fun at by some random group of idiots can escalate that.

[Badsight]

"Writing in UK newspaper The Observer, British comedian Steve Coogan says Top Gear's offensive stereotyping has gone too far.

I am a huge fan of Top Gear. I normally regard the presenters' brand of irreverence as a part of the rough and tumble that goes with having a sense of humour.

I've been on the show three times and had a go at their celebrity-lap challenge, and I would love to receive a fourth invite.

But I think that's unlikely once they read this. If, however, it makes the lads question their behaviour for a second - ambitious, I know - it will be worth it.

I normally remain below the parapet when these frenetic arguments about comedy and taste break out. But this time, I've had enough of the regular defence you tend to hear - the tired line that it's "just a laugh", a bit of "harmless fun".

OK guys, I've got some great ideas for your next show. Jeremy, why not have James describe some kosher food as looking like "sick with cheese on it"?

No? Thought not. Even better, why not describe some Islamic fundamentalists as lazy and feckless?

Feel the silence. They're all pretty well organised these days, aren't they, those groups? Better stick to those that are least problematic.

Old people? Special needs? I know - Mexicans! There aren't enough of them to be troublesome, no celebrities to be upset. And most of them are miles and miles away.

The BBC's initial mealy-mouthed apology was pitiful. It cited the more benign rivalry that exists between European nations (ah, those arrogant French, over-organised Germans), and in doing so neatly sidestepped one hugely important fact - ethnicity.

All the examples it uses to legitimise this hateful rubbish are relatively prosperous countries full of white people. How about if the lads had described Africans as lazy, feckless etc? Or Pakistanis?

What's more, this was all spouted by the presenters on one of the BBC's most successful programmes. Forget the World Service; overseas, Top Gear is more frequently the public face of the BBC. The Beeb's hand-wringing suggested tolerance of casual racism, arguably the most sinister kind.

Besides, there is not a shred of truth in Top Gear's "comic" stereotype. I can tell you from living in the US that Mexicans work themselves to the bone doing all the dirty thankless jobs the white middle class won't do.

What makes it worse is that the lads wear this offensive behaviour as a badge of pride, pleased they have annoyed those whom they regard, in another lazy stereotype, as sandal-wearing vegans with beards and no sense of humour.

Well, here's some Twitter hot news: I don't have a beard, I'm not a vegan, I don't wear sandals (unless they're Birkenstocks, of course), and I have, I think, a sense of humour.

I also figure I know something about comedy. It's true there are no hard and fast rules; it's often down to judgment calls. It's safe to say, though, that you can get away with saying unsayable things if it's done with some sense of culpability.

I've been fortunate enough to work with the likes of Peter Baynham, Armando Iannucci, Chris Morris, Simon Pegg, Julia Davis, Caroline Aherne, Ruth Jones and the Mighty Boosh - some of the funniest and most innovative people in British comedy. And Rob Brydon too.

It's a diverse, eclectic group with one common denominator: they could all defend and justify their comedy from a moral standpoint.

They are laughing at hypocrisy, human frailty, narrow-mindedness. They mock pomposity and arrogance.

If I say anything remotely racist or sexist as Alan Partridge, for example, the joke is abundantly clear. We are laughing at a lack of judgment and ignorance. With Top Gear it is three rich, middle-aged men laughing at poor Mexicans.There is a strong ethical dimension to the best comedy. Not only does it avoid reinforcing prejudices, it actively challenges them. In comedy, as in life, we ought to think before we speak.

If I can borrow from the Wildean wit of Richard Hammond, the comic approach was "lazy", "feckless" and "flatulent". Richard has his tongue so far down the back of Jeremy's trousers he could forge a career as the back end of a pantomime horse. His attempt to foster some Clarkson-like maverick status with his "edgy" humour is tragic. He reminds you of the squirt at school as he hangs around Clarkson the bully, as if to say, "I'm with him". Meanwhile, James May holds their coats as they beat up the boy with the stutter.

Some of the blame must lie with what some like to call the "postmodern" reaction to over zealous political correctness. Sometimes, it's true, things need a shakeup; orthodoxies need to be challenged. But this sort of ironic approach has been a licence for any halfwit to vent the prejudices they'd been keeping in the closet since Love Thy Neighbour.

Archaic attitudes are endemic in a lot of motoring journalism. I confess I am an avid consumer and wade through a sea of lazy cliches to get to anything genuinely illuminating.

Jeremy unwittingly cast the template for this. Twenty years ago, when I bought Performance Car magazine, his column was the first I would turn to. It was slightly annoying but unfailingly funny. Since then there have been legions of pretenders who just don't pass muster.

There is a kneejerk, brainless reaction to any legislation that may have a detrimental effect on their God-given right to drive cars anywhere at any speed they consider safe. They often remind me of the US National Rifle Association who, I'm sure we can all agree, are a bunch of nutters. It's a kind of "airbags are for poofs" mentality and, far from being shocking, it's just shockingly dull.

It would be fine if it was confined to grumpy men in bad jeans smoking Marlboros at the side of the Millbrook test track, but it's not. As I pointed out, it's the voice of one of the BBC's most successful programmes.

The lads have this strange notion that if they are being offensive it bestows on them a kind of anti-establishment aura of coolness; in fact, like their leather jackets and jeans, it is uber-conservative (which, I'd suggest, is not very cool).

Gentlemen, I don't believe in half-criticisms and this has nothing to do with my slow lap times. But, increasingly, you each look like a middle-aged punk rocker pogo-ing at his niece's wedding. That would be funny if you weren't regarded by some people as role models.

Big viewing figures don't give you impunity - they carry responsibility. Start showing some, tuck your shirts in, be a bit funnier and we'll pretend it all never happened.

THOSE COMMENTS

* Mexican cars are just going to be lazy, feckless, flatulent, overweight, leaning against a fence asleep looking at a cactus, with a blanket with a hole in the middle on as a coat. - Richard Hammond.

* Mexican food is "sick with cheese on it". - James May.

* "That's why we won't get any complaints about this because at the Mexican Embassy, the ambassador's going to be sitting there with a remote control like this". - Jeremy Clarkson, who then slumped in his chair and faked a snore.

- OBSERVER

By Steve Coogan"

[henk4]

let's hope they will read the above, and come up with a more clever reaction than Clarkson has produced so far.

[crisis]

crsis ... if you lot would stop throwing away Ashes matches *I* would get back to calling them POMS too :)

ha ha, But your slings and arrows are wasted on the likes of me. I could care less about cricket my friend.:D
Anyhow, some of the, no not nicest, something else, but I have a few pommy friends. In fact i am the direct descendant of one, being my late Grandmother.:)

[henk4]

ha ha, But your slings and arrows are wasted on the likes of me. I could care less about cricket my friend.:D
Anyhow, some of the, no not nicest, something else, but I have a few pommy friends. In fact i am the direct descendant of one, being my late Grandmother.:)

I always knew that there had to be something wrong with you.....

[crisis]

Its true. The only problem with using the media to joke around like TopGear does is that you get a lot of people upset by not being politically correct, or in this case for taking a jab at someone's nationality.
Jokes will always have a place in our world, but they will also have a time. Typically that time and place is between friends that enjoy having a good laugh at each another's expense. I think you hit the nail on the head. Comedians also perform to similarly large audiences and can be similalrly offensive. These guys and the idiots on our footy show however are not comedians. It is not their craft. Yet on these kind of shows they attempt to be. And often their crass lack of flair or sophistication can offend some and make others cringe.

However, if some random person on the street decided to call me a Nazi, then chances are I'd get a little upset depending on my mood that day. Thats not really humour. That would be a personal insult.


That's why I can understand that people get offended when jokes are made about them. They only get offended because the jokes are made by people that don't know them personally and/or haven't even seen them in their lives.
That said, of course its still good to have a sense of humor about it, but everyone has a bad day sometimes, and being poked fun at by some random group of idiots can escalate that.
In the end you live and die by your words. I do find those who tend to make a hobby of being offended a little tiresome however it is also true that you cant tell people what they should or should not be offended by. And I would say that the comments they made could not have been made without having some knowledge of their potentail for offence.

[crisis]

I always knew that there had to be something wrong with you.....

English Grandmother married to 3rd or so generation Aussie of Scottish descent. Other side is about 3 or so generation Aussie again of pommy descent cross with South African with some ties back to Portugal.
I sir ar 100% mongrel! ;)

[henk4]

English Grandmother married to 3rd or so generation Aussie of Scottish descent. Other side is about 3 or so generation Aussie again of pommy descent cross with South African with some ties back to Portugal.
I sir ar 100% mongrel! ;)

Adam and Eve would have been proud of you:D

[Sauc3]

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. (<=== "LORD'S" NAME IN VAIN! zOMG!)

Racism and being offended are two things that are taught to us as we grow up. Along with things like table manners, being ashamed of yourself and how to tie your shoelaces.
Do you think that the arctic fox says to his buddies when he sees a grey fox amble past, "Hey guys! Look at that old n*****!"(<==== Censored for those people who get offended from reading a word. I'd REALLY hate for that to happen.). Or that they all look at the red fox and exclaim 'GINGER!'? Do you think that normal tigers chase down and kill albino tigers for use in witchdoctor prosperity potions? Of course not.
Only humans can take something as ridiculously innocent as a person's colour and heritage and turn it into the most offensive thing on the planet at that moment, warranting calls of... taking money forcibly because someone spoke and... possible loss of revenue from ads.... OH NO!
Then comes hypocrisy of Mr. Steve Coogan then taking a high and mighty approach of dignified criticism about these buffoonish antics in an article which he directly 'offends' 4 people in personal attacks. Oh, but those were tongue in cheek weren't they? Well that's all right then.
But it really isn't, because where he's claiming Mr. Rob Brydon is talentless and unfunny and accusing sir Hammond of something I believe the Brits refer to as 'buggery', is supposed to be an article about taking remarks about people too far.

The day people can learn that words mean so much less than actions (Sticks and stones anyone? They have more range and leave lovely bruises.) is the day wars stop. And people stop caring what others think of them and just do what's good for themselves, mentally OR physically.
Basically, harden the **** up or get off the internet. And TV. Probably radio too. Not to mention newspapers. Best avoid social situations too.

Signing off, The Flying Dutchman (douchebag), who's just come from a romp with several prostitutes and 5 handfuls of 'brownies' and no I won't get off this high horse, it's a great place to rest my keyboard. Oh, and I speak with a lishp. But only in English.

[Matra et Alpine]

:) Humourous and well written sir.

Problem is animals can DO worse than saying things to those NOT recognisable as "them".
They will ostracise them from packs and often kill them :(

SO not "Only humans" .... though the much lower level of name calling I accept :) but only coz I dont actyually know what a penguin is saying !

Coogan's is using examples to highlight the original complaint clearer to the parties involved and a failry normal method to highlight hypocrisy.

"sticks and stones" are fine, when both parties realise that.
When there are spectators it's not as they can't know the difference.
So I refute the analogy you use there good sir :)

Stereotyping however is not just name calling and is the continuation of a derogatory view of nation/race/person. Where it is used in hunour everyone will half smile for sure.
BUT, as is repeated often ... this time TG went too far with it. A couple of times the fun part woudl be there ... after the third time it was likE watching a gang of upper class snobs in Oxford prep school beat up on the kid from the local scheme before they buggar him.
( Now is that stereotype funny ? NO :( )

[clutch-monkey]

The Flying Dutchman (douchebag)

quoted for accuracy




:D

[Sauc3]

:) Humourous and well written sir.

Problem is animals can DO worse than saying things to those NOT recognisable as "them".
They will ostracise them from packs and often kill them :(

SO not "Only humans" .... though the much lower level of name calling I accept :) but only coz I dont actyually know what a penguin is saying !

Coogan's is using examples to highlight the original complaint clearer to the parties involved and a failry normal method to highlight hypocrisy.

"sticks and stones" are fine, when both parties realise that.
When there are spectators it's not as they can't know the difference.
So I refute the analogy you use there good sir :)

Stereotyping however is not just name calling and is the continuation of a derogatory view of nation/race/person. Where it is used in hunour everyone will half smile for sure.
BUT, as is repeated often ... this time TG went too far with it. A couple of times the fun part woudl be there ... after the third time it was likE watching a gang of upper class snobs in Oxford prep school beat up on the kid from the local scheme before they buggar him.
( Now is that stereotype funny ? NO :( )
The point was made to the name calling, and certainly no level of violence was implied in that statement. On the topic of violence I think that humans have more than proven to be disgusting and frankly terrible subjects, time and time again, and even animals that do these horrible things such as ostracizing and eating young look tame in comparison.
Just imagine for a second though that that's all that humans did. We didn't disagree over religion (Didn't have any? Wishful thinking perhaps... If forced, I'd want Terry Pratchett to choose the single defining religion.), didn't HAVE terms that defined people in a negative light racially. What if humans solved their territory disputes one on one, likewise with woman troubles?
Hitler would have appreciated his fellow Germans and neighbours. Israelis and Palestinians would not currently be ruining what is supposed to be one of the most beautiful countries on earth. England wouldn't have fought the wars they had, killing the millions of people they did. America and their natives would have remained a peaceful and healthy nation, the Asian countries would have been unspoilt by horrible dictators and people would be.... overrunning the earth in their tens of billions. Oh dear god that's not right...

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the guys at TG aren't dropping molotov bread baskets on Mexicans, they're not directing their supposed insults at anyone in specific, and not even at the NEW stereotypes that Mexicans have attracted in recent years. If anything the stereotypes they're referring to currently relates to the views reflecting the human extras on a Warner Brothers show featuring a mouse who's name shall remain unspoken for fear of racial stereotyping.
So, a Mexican native has heard the statements made about noone in specific in their country. What will they do? Be upset that someone they've never met and most likely will never meet has said something that they're interpreting as a derogatory remark defaming their specific character, and that their life will be affected by it greatly because of mental problems associated with a slight bit of name calling?
Or, will they think it obvious that noone watching the show takes the remarks seriously, then go about their day perpetuating present day stereotypes?

Saying that three middle aged TV presenters in England have defamed a country across the Atlantic Ocean with a couple of supposedly offensive remarks is admitting that the very people becoming offended are giving the presenters too much power over them.




On a bit more of a tangent, I haven't seen a single complaint about the first scene of said episode, where the entire modern Australian population are compared to the convicts that originally populated this nation AND TREATED AS SUCH. Then called one of the men 'festively plump', but not as nicely as I've just put it. THEN May viciously and maliciously ridiculed the Australians for their accent.
Not to mention all of the remarks about *deep breath* Afghanistan, Albania, America, Australia, Austria, Belgium, China, France, Germany, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Ireland (all of the GB come to think of it), Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, Romania (OK, this one did get some complaints), Russia, Switzerland and Vietnam. I'm sure I've left one or two out, and some may have worse remarks about them than others, but these are just some of the obvious countries that have stereotypes that TG have undoubtedly made potentially offensive remarks about. How come Steve Coogan isn't jumping out of his seat to defend them?
Why does Mexico deserve special attention when it comes to defending offensive stereotypes when so many other nations have suffered under the oppressive thumb of the villainous Top Gear rulers?

(Note: This isn't aimed specifically aimed at you Matra, I'm not striking up a personal argument but rather posing a lot of hypotheticals about why people act and react the way they do.)

[Matra et Alpine]

no probs, we're discussing it :)

I think the "ashes" episode got away with it's excess stereotypes as each were giving as they got. If you watch the Aussie version of that visit it's equally funny and makes MANY more digs on the "bruce" v "nigel" front.

Yes, we'd love an idealised world utopia. But ain't ever going to happen. So have to "make best" with what we have.

Coogan himself accepted that humour WILL use stereotypes, but brought to attention how it cant be unconstrained and it's cheap and easy to overstep.

Nobody has ever said that a couple of Mexican comments were the end of the world.
But the consistent part is that it was in excess.

The comment on the power of the presenters is valid IF those complaining are donig on their own behalf. But I've not seen many Mexican posters complain. All seem to be those with a social conscience of what is and isn't acceptable. So they have the power and using it to reign in the excesses of the TG team in this case :)

[henk4]

Why does Mexico deserve special attention when it comes to defending offensive stereotypes when so many other nations have suffered under the oppressive thumb of the villainous Top Gear rulers?


Probably you will know the Dutch saying about the the jug and the time it can stay in the water. (until it bursts). Perhaps the jab at the Mexicans was the proverbial drop that made the balance tilt and the next time the "funny three" may choose another anonymous victim, the protests might become louder and louder. I doubt the culprits may ever admit that they could be the slightest bit more moderate in their exporessions as they seem to be so full of praise for themselves that the thoughts/opinions of other people are only of the most remote interest to them.

Anyway. I have stopped watching them.

[MRR]

Awesome response by Clarkson.

I think the world needs more people with his outlook.

People just need to grow some thicker skin and get over it. The Mexicans make racist jokes about Americans and white people all the time but it is all broadcast in Mexico or on Spanish language AM radio that no one listens to. Honestly who cares? If people don't want to watch their show than don't but you shouldn't call for censorship just because you might be offended (remember the South Park Muhammad episode that was pulled we can't end freedom of speech just to accommodate an unhappy minority). If the show is truly off color, lacks humor, and genuinely racist than it will go away because people will stop watching it because we all can choose what material we will expose ourselves to.

ps typing with a broken arm is kinda difficult

[Badsight]

Israelis and Palestinians would not currently be ruining what is supposed to be one of the most beautiful countries on earth.id say Bora Bora has more north american land buyers than mediterranean's

because you cant possibly be meaning the pile of rocks that is palestine!

interestingly , this year the earths population will pass 7 billion . & that if every single person was given enough elbow space to dance in , the lot of us would still fit inside of texas

with the falling fertility rates around the world , there are already countrys failing to meet replacement birth rates . india should drop to a replacement birth rate by the 2040's . feeding 9 billion is entirely doable. its just we cant have 9 billion people living like the USA's 300 million currently do

[Clivey]

Saw this on another site... does anybody have the link to Clarkson's comments?

http://i.imgur.com/mN3MB.jpg


Awesome response by Clarkson.

I think the world needs more people with his outlook.


^^ call me ignorant, but I LOLd at that lol. The man makes a good point.

...which is precisely what I was trying to say earlier.


Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. (<=== "LORD'S" NAME IN VAIN! zOMG!)



Racism and being offended are two things that are taught to us as we grow up. Along with things like table manners, being ashamed of yourself and how to tie your shoelaces.

Do you think that the arctic fox says to his buddies when he sees a grey fox amble past, "Hey guys! Look at that old n*****!"(<==== Censored for those people who get offended from reading a word. I'd REALLY hate for that to happen.). Or that they all look at the red fox and exclaim 'GINGER!'? Do you think that normal tigers chase down and kill albino tigers for use in witchdoctor prosperity potions? Of course not.

Only humans can take something as ridiculously innocent as a person's colour and heritage and turn it into the most offensive thing on the planet at that moment, warranting calls of... taking money forcibly because someone spoke and... possible loss of revenue from ads.... OH NO!

Then comes hypocrisy of Mr. Steve Coogan then taking a high and mighty approach of dignified criticism about these buffoonish antics in an article which he directly 'offends' 4 people in personal attacks. Oh, but those were tongue in cheek weren't they? Well that's all right then.

But it really isn't, because where he's claiming Mr. Rob Brydon is talentless and unfunny and accusing sir Hammond of something I believe the Brits refer to as 'buggery', is supposed to be an article about taking remarks about people too far.



The day people can learn that words mean so much less than actions (Sticks and stones anyone? They have more range and leave lovely bruises.) is the day wars stop. And people stop caring what others think of them and just do what's good for themselves, mentally OR physically.

Basically, harden the **** up or get off the internet. And TV. Probably radio too. Not to mention newspapers. Best avoid social situations too.



Signing off, The Flying Dutchman (douchebag), who's just come from a romp with several prostitutes and 5 handfuls of 'brownies' and no I won't get off this high horse, it's a great place to rest my keyboard. Oh, and I speak with a lishp. But only in English.

+1. Some people need to "grow a pair" for sure.