Japan

[csl177]

When something as tragic as the catastrophy in Japan occurs, it's sometimes hard to just carry on with the usual daily distractions most
of us indulge in thoughtlessly. Not trying to harsh anyone's visit to UCP, just a slideshow reminder of how quickly life can change when the planet shrugs. And as after the Indonesian tsunami that swept the Indian Ocean in 2004, humans can display a humble resilience that approaches grace. Heartfelt wishes of peace to the Japanese people in their struggle to recover from this disaster.

Japan Earthquake 2011: Before/After Satellite Images Show Extent Of Devastation (PHOTOS) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/14/japan-earthquake-2011-goo_n_835548.html?icid=maing%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_ lnk3%7C50007#253388)

(apologies for the huffpo link but unavoidable; click on the slideshow for full screen)

[whiteballz]

I have been watching and learning as much as I can about this disaster,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uJN3Z1ryck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01vktb2bj4

Scary shit.

Also, I'll try to find an awesome link about the nuclear issue that I was reading yesterday.

[pimento]

If huffpo is distasteful for you, try this link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm).

Also, here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698?) is a BBC live news feed.

[pimento]

Here's a link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/) about how safe the nuclear reactors really are. It's disgusting how ridiculously overblown the news 'reports' on the issue, to the extent that the Thai government is performing random tests on imported Japanese food products for possible radiation contamination. It's just thoroughly unnecessary scaremongering.

[blingbling]

just another in your face examples of how feeble the human species are

[Fleet 500]

I first heard about it shortly after it occurred on the radio (KNX 1070 AM). At first, it was reported as a "7.9." I did not put the TV on right away; I did about 30 minutes later and by then it was an "8.9."

I did record many hours overnight on several cable news stations.

I have been through many earthquakes and am glad that the faults in my area are not capable of a 9.0 quake (that is the most recent figure for the Japan quake).

[whiteballz]

I can't believe how mind****ingly stupid so many Americans are being on facebook, saying this is payback for Pearl Harbour.

[Ferrer]

I can't believe how mind****ingly stupid so many Americans are being on facebook, saying this is payback for Pearl Harbour.
Wut? :confused:

[pimento]

Yea, if it's not that it's other @#$%ers (Glenn Beck included) saying it's somehow a punishment from god or something. These people need removing from the gene pool.

[henk4]

Yea, if it's not that it's other @#$%ers (Glenn Beck included) saying it's somehow a punishment from god or something. These people need removing from the gene pool.

perhaps somebody can explain to God (and Glenn Beck) that creating a planet with moving tectonic plates was not such a good idea.

[Fleet 500]

perhaps somebody can explain to God (and Glenn Beck) that creating a planet with moving tectonic plates was not such a good idea.
If there were no tectonic plates (and the resulting earthquakes) there would be no mountains. I don't like earthquakes but I do enjoy looking at mountains...

[whiteballz]

Wut? :confused:

There are groups on facebook, and hundreds of americans have their status's as "this is payback for Pearl Harbour" etc etc.

It ****ing sickens me.

Do they not remember the what they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[henk4]

If there were no tectonic plates (and the resulting earthquakes) there would be no mountains. I don't like earthquakes but I do enjoy looking at mountains...

an omnipotent being would have included mountains in the grand design in the first place, and not use such a primitive method to construct them.

[Fleet 500]

an omnipotent being would have included mountains in the grand design in the first place, and not use such a primitive method to construct them.
There is a reason why it happened the way it did which is beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals.

[henk4]

There is a reason why it happened the way it did which is beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals.

the reason is quite simple, Japan is located in a dangerous spot. So is California as you must be fully aware of. Will the Glenn Becks of this world blame God also if something like this will happen in California? (Actually probably yes, because it is a liberal state...;))

[Fleet 500]

the reason is quite simple, Japan is located in a dangerous spot. So is California as you must be fully aware of. Will the Glenn Becks of this world blame God also if something like this will happen in California? (Actually probably yes, because it is a liberal state...;))
I mean we don't know why the Earth formed the way it did.

I don't know if the Glenn Becks of this world blame God because I don't watch Glenn Beck.

(There are quite a few conservative areas in California, including the area I live in. And California was a Republican state not that long ago.)

[henk4]

I mean we don't know why the Earth formed the way it did.

I don't know if the Glenn Becks of this world blame God because I don't watch Glenn Beck.

(There are quite a few conservative areas in California, including the area I live in. And California was a Republican state not that long ago.)

possibly, I was referring to post #9 where Glenn Beck was introduced as alleging that this was an act of God. I never heard him say that, because I do not watch either. But using a dubious entity as the reason for something to happen is beyond me.

[aiasib]

Advice God says:

"I hurricane cities because of their gay people...usually in hurricane-prone areas during hurricane season."

And more lulz (http://www.quickmeme.com/Advice-God/) [no offense to the unenlightened]

[pimento]

possibly, I was referring to post #9 where Glenn Beck was introduced as alleging that this was an act of God. I never heard him say that, because I do not watch either. But using a dubious entity as the reason for something to happen is beyond me.

A friend told me, so it's second- or third- ..or so.. hand information. Even if he didn't, I'm sure someone did. :(

[Dino Scuderia]

Beck was referring to everything that's going on, all the uprisings etc. as in the world is currently heading toward something(biblical).

Anyway, that's his deal...no different than most religious people and their strange beliefs.

Back on topic...looks like the nuke plant debate is going to be the lingering effect coming out of the tragedy. Already becoming a political football in the states, and Germany as well as Switzerland getting a lot of noise from the public.

One of the biggest French nuke companies stock price fell 18% the last two days.(not to mention all financial markets being battered with uncertainty)

The tragedy itself...horrible and unthinkable. The whole country moving 8 feet and the north end sinking so that the water did not recede.

Japan and it's culture....aging population and immigration policy...can't take too many hits like this without more influx of youth to carry forward.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Japan is a resilient nation and a community that truly works together out of duty to restore it's former glory. It's a horrible scenario but it seems like the Pacific plates been letting off a little steam recently, with an active Volcano in Japan, minor tremors in Tonga and Queensland, and of course the horror of Christchurch, NZ.

This is quite sad and it's not being helped by the sensationalist bulls**t being passed off as news and commentary in regards to the Nuclear plants at Fukushima. However, in the absense of hard fact (something the power company is unlikely to give, heaven forbid it lose face) these tales can continue. It's serious, sure, but it's not a Chernobyl.

<cue 2012 doomsayers>

[pimento]

As mentioned in the register article mentioned earlier, this quake seems to be showing actually just how safe these nuclear plants are. They weren't built to withstand a quake anything near this magnitude, yet they performed faultlessly. It was the tsunami wiping out the backup generators that cause the problems to start, apparently.

[Dino Scuderia]

Well, it's always the unknowns that will get you.

It will keep the brains who are paid to think about such things thinking for quite a while.

If they hadn't been able to pump the cool sea water onto the reactor there would already be a Chernobyl. The explosions are feared to have cracked the containers as it is. It's far from over. They have a lot of radioactive sea water and sand to deal with as well.

[Kitdy]

It is worrying that the Nukes were not designed with this in mind.

Fusion is the future - fission is the past.

[Matra et Alpine]

All my wishes and prayers go out to all in Japan and relatives.

So having put "my" god in the mix as a positive influence then there is this TWAT ....

Japan disaster 'a message from God', warns Glenn Beck - World News - MSN News UK (http://news.uk.msn.com/world/news-articles.aspx?cp-documentid=156497885)

I found him funny to watch and listen to as he created the whole right wing neo-almost-nazi viewpoints and got the "tea party" going.
Stopped as he was clearly a nutter 3 months ago.

What I DO NOT understand is ANYONE chosing to listen to the headline grabbing extremist push his personal agendas onto ANYONE.

THe problem it creates for the US is many outside of America will see HIM as representative of the American people because he gets FOX ratings

Actually I've found so many similarities with Quadaffi's recent rants on TV and the many Glenn Beck shows I watched :)

BUT, to get back to our friends who deserve all our SUPPORT, then I hope the teams area able to keep the reactor under control and get a relatively clean and safe shutdown.

THis is grabbing the headlines fairly understandably, but before it we must remember the 5th worst earthquake ever recorded and those who are suffering from that and then the devestation of the tsunami. Easy to forget the 100s of thousands affected badly already :(

[Matra et Alpine]

It is worrying that the Nukes were not designed with this in mind.
Well like all things it's difficult to predict the unknown.
As noted, the reactors fared well until the tsunami was severe enough to knock out the generators after a few hours :(
For sure now, the industry will address this as an uncertainty we have evidence to plan against.
WHat is not unexpected is poor journos whipping up hysteria where it's not needed. You dont get tsunami in Germany :)

[NSXType-R]

Here's something similar from the NY Times.

Satellite Photos - Japan Before and After Tsunami - Interactive Feature - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?ref=asia)

It's some scary stuff, hope they get back up quickly.

Honestly, the same thing could have happened on the West coast of the US, and I think they would have been wiped out. Japan is probably the most prepared for such a disaster in the entire nation. I'm not trying to be mean, but if such a disaster happened in Vietnam or the Philippines, I doubt they'd fare as well.

[RacingManiac]

It is worrying that the Nukes were not designed with this in mind.

Fusion is the future - fission is the past.

They are, as with all US and Canadian plant, they are designed with the strongest quake expected to be experienced by the plant. A lot of Californian coastal plant are designed for 7.5 quake only....This was a 9....I'd bet most Ontario plants are much less since we don't see much quake at all.

As with all engineering you can't design for everything, as with practical reason you really can't cover all the basis and still be cost effective.

And the age of the Fukushima plant plays a role in this as well as the more modern plants now are designed with passive failsafe that requires no external power to work(gravity based), where as here it has multiple powered system that basically had the planets aligned against them to knock them out one by one. For the fact that this was a shit hits the fan scenario and the disaster is not nearly as bad as it could've been, its a small triumph amidst of the disaster...The report now is that reactor 1-3 are all cooled to controllable level, reactor 4 has a fire but the reactor it self was not running even before the quake. However its structure was damaged and the current radiation leak was from that. But the radiation level is dropping.

[RacingManiac]

I can't believe how mind****ingly stupid so many Americans are being on facebook, saying this is payback for Pearl Harbour.

The stupid PETA/Greenpeace anti-whaling/doulphin ship captain said its payback from the ocean.....

The guy should really be impale with carbon fibre since what idiots will try to block a thousand ton whaling ship with a high performance carbon fibre speed boat...

People are just dumb, period...

[Cobrafan427]

The cue 2012 doomsday remark reminded me of what i heard in the elevator yesterday. Every recent disaster has happened on the 11th. September 11th, the Haiti earthquake happened on the 11th and now this happened on the 11th. I hate to admit it but i am a doomsday believer for reasons unknown (i just got a feeling) but i'm not saying that this is evidence. Just pointing out the strange coincidence.

[henk4]

The cue 2012 doomsday remark reminded me of what i heard in the elevator yesterday. Every recent disaster has happened on the 11th. September 11th, the Haiti earthquake happened on the 11th and now this happened on the 11th. I hate to admit it but i am a doomsday believer for reasons unknown (i just got a feeling) but i'm not saying that this is evidence. Just pointing out the strange coincidence.

there is a 1 in 30 chance that disasters happen on the 11th.
Several major disasters did not....like the 2004 tsunami.

[RacingManiac]

The whole date thing is arbitrary anyway....

[thebrochureman]

Shame, and the people on facebook need to get a life, they wouldn’t like it if it happened to them. This is going to affect the Japans car companies a lot.

[Ferrer]

There are groups on facebook, and hundreds of americans have their status's as "this is payback for Pearl Harbour" etc etc.

It ****ing sickens me.

Do they not remember the what they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
It leaves me astounded how people can be such big idiots.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I've been following the BBC live coverage during the first two days, with some fresh news coming straight from Japanese officials.

It was funny though that even before they considered releasing radioactive steam withing the structure, Italian magazines were already claiming high levels of radiations were detected in the whole area.

As if the situation wasn't bad enough.

I remember when 9/11 happened, they were calling for something like 50.000 casualties, even before the towers collapsed.

Get a life.

[Matra et Alpine]

Like the Japanese response .... taken frmo BBC twits


"Although my home is located in one part of areas that Tokyo Electricity Company designated a blackout area, it didn't happen today. My house is a little bit dark and cold but when I think about the sufferers, it's not a problem. I heard that lots of people are trying to save electricity like I'm doing. I strongly feel a sense of unity from Japanese people."
"Tokyo is a ghost town tonight. No people on the streets. Even the entertainment districts. Eerily quiet. But Tokyo is amazing. Even with blackouts, train problems, no rioting, no looting, no robberies."

[Dino Scuderia]

I don't think we've gotten the real story yet...it's being filtered first through TEPCO then through their gov't.

The Japanese gov't is upset at Tokyo Electric(TEPCO) because they(the gov't) were getting snippets of info now and then therefor couldn't properly prepare the public for safety.

Japanese people revere their corporations, they'll practically believe anything they say.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Like the Japanese response .... taken frmo BBC twits

Even more amazing, they very next day people calmingly waiting in front of grocery stores, while clerks were taking the stuff for them from the store which was of course a mess. I can imagine hordes of people taking over the supermarkets in many other countries.

[Matra et Alpine]

EDIT: @dino
^^^ In the belief that all are doing their best to do their best.
Where are reports that govt are "upset" ? Not any of the trusted sources I've been using are saying that (yet).

[aiasib]

Civilized japanese people? That story just isn't gonna fly. Quick! To the Sensationalismobile!

[Dino Scuderia]

EDIT: @dino
^^^ In the belief that all are doing their best to do their best.
Where are reports that govt are "upset" ? Not any of the trusted sources I've been using are saying that (yet).

Financial Times for one.

FT.com / Global insight - Patience wears thin at Tepco’s bungling (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7d73a59a-4f2a-11e0-9038-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1GhJXHjmz)

[RacingManiac]

What is the "real" story though? That this is a huge disaster and they are all going to die? Despite whats been said or not said, they are doing everything they can to contain the situation. Its really not as if they are twittling their thumbs and sitting on their collective butts doing nothing. IAEA's own measurements are basically confirming that they are leaking radiation, but its getting better, and the level in the public is not harmful yet. The plant people are basically fighting the situation as it comes. They are still down on power to run the cooling system. The surrounding infrastructure is not operation due to the grand scheme of earthquake and tsunami.

All the sensationalist media does not help the situation, and if it weren't for their relatively calm societal outlook, it might cause mass panic, which again, helps no one.

The are hundreds if not thousands of trained, professional personnel, not talking heads, working on something as big as this. They are the one that is controlling(or try to keep control) of the actual on-going disaster, not the reporter on TV, who merely reads whats given to them and sometimes add in their personal bias or "pseudo-expertise"....

[RacingManiac]

BTW the FT article needs subscription

[Dino Scuderia]

I viewed it without subscription.

I am skeptical because those explosions were not insignificant.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I've a friend graduated in energetic engineering. Talking about what we could see on TV, he wasn't concerned, as from what he knows about how a nuclear plant is built, an external explosion such as the first one could well have been insignificant for the actual reactor, froma safety point of view. Of course the plant and therefore energy production were highly affected.

Then again he is no expert or an official involved in any nuclear plant or anything, but he was pretty confident the situation wasn't as bad as the media were depicting it.

[Matra et Alpine]

Maybe we're jsut "Lucky" but Beeb coverage on radio and even TV has been realistic and thoroughly technical so less "panic" here perhaps - well apart from Murdoch's "rags" and sensational so-called "news"
Even when the beeb TRIED to get a sensationalist person on he ended up saying exactly what the earlier industry expert had said about the explosions, the creation of hydrogen when using water to cool nuclear reaction, the half-life of the radiation leaked and the risk ..... first time I got the reasons for taking iodine !!
Thank God ( pun intended ) we dont get twats like Beck on our screens :)

yeah cant view the FT article :( Was it a "markets" view that there was trouble or quote from gov ?
( I trust business market reporters even less than FOX News :) Too many agendas around :)

[Dino Scuderia]

You make the call. All is well.... but 140,000 ppl urged to stay in their home, don't go outside. The rest of the folks simply left the area.


Patience wears thin at Tepco’s bungling

By David Pilling

Published: March 15 2011 17:43 | Last updated: March 15 2011 19:58

When the leader of a country asks the company fighting to prevent a nuclear catastrophe “what the hell is going on?”, you know he has departed from the script.

Naoto Kan on Tuesday lost his temper with Tokyo Electric Power Company, the operator of the explosion-prone Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station.


He could not understand why he had not been told for a whole hour about a third explosion at the plant in the early hours of Tuesday morning.

After hearing that Tepco was evacuating 740 “non-essential” staff from the complex – leaving only 50 technicians to fight the worst civil nuclear crisis in Japan’s history – it appeared to cross Mr Kan’s mind that Tepco might abandon the plant altogether. Conjuring the language of war, he is reported as saying: “Retreat is unthinkable.”

So far, the Japanese government has managed its rescue operation as well, perhaps even better, than could be expected. It has marshalled tens of thousands of Self Defence Force troops to the tsunami-pounded coastline and welcomed foreign rescue teams. This is a distinct improvement on 1995, the year of the Kobe earthquake, when it was more reticent on both counts.

Alas, the same cannot be said for efforts to contain the crisis unfolding in the gaseous innards of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear facility. Certainly, one must be careful about criticising the response to an unprecedented event. But Tepco, particularly in its communications, has looked more like the Keystone Kops than is desirable in an organisation struggling to prevent a nuclear meltdown.

Tepco’s attempt to impart information has left the public mostly confused and incredulous. At press conferences, anxious-looking junior executives hang their heads like naughty schoolboys, and apologise for “causing inconvenience”, a stock Japanese phrase. In matters of substance, they appear to know little.

“The public relations of Tepco is very poor,” said Shijuro Ogata, a retired Bank of Japan official who has hardly ventured outside his house in a Tokyo suburb since Friday’s earthquake struck. “It is very clumsy and they don’t seem to be so knowledgeable.”

Michael Cucek, a political analyst living in Tokyo, was more damning still about the nuclear agency and Tepco. “They have no crisis management because they were never ready for a crisis,” he said. “The fear is Tepco is not telling the whole truth. They are not in the habit of telling everything they know.”

When it comes to keeping the public informed, the record of Japan’s nuclear industry is not inspiring.
An official wears protective clothing as he waits to scan people for radiation
Safety fears: an official wears protective clothing as he scans people for radiation at a rescue centre in Koriyama

In 1995, there was a cover-up of the extent of an accident at the Monju fast-breeder reactor. Four years later, three workers at the Tokaimura reactor suffered high doses of radiation when safety measures were circumvented. Then in 2002, Tepco was caught falsifying safety data. After a 2007 6.6-magnitude earthquake, Tepco admitted that another plant had not been designed to withstand such tremors. The industry, said Mr Cucek, has had “an attitude problem about safety”.

Ordinary Japanese have been almost as angry at Tepco over the handling of its rolling blackout schedule, the communications and execution of which have been patchy. On Monday, planned power cuts never materialised, enraging a public used to precision. “This was an unplanned, planned blackout,” joked Mr Ogata. “Isn’t it better to have the blackout as planned?”

The government has fared better. Yukio Edano, chief government spokesman, has won praise for speaking directly and regularly. Like Mr Kan he has taken to wearing a bomber jacket. Unlike Mr Kan, he has become a hero of the Twitter world, sending out regular updates to a public hungry for information.

Even so, one must ask why the government has not been better at extracting information from Tepco. Mr Kan was briefing opposition leaders on Tuesday unaware that a third blast had occurred. His subsequent decision to head a joint taskforce with Tepco appears to be an admission that the cabinet needs to take more control.

Many Japanese said they were unhappy with the management of the nuclear crisis. But some were more forgiving. One Tokyo resident said he was extremely nervous about the events at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi plant. But he thought the government, and even Tepco, was doing all it could. “Even Tepco has never faced anything like this before,” he said. “They are doing their best.”

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web."

[Matra et Alpine]

Kan berates TEPCO for tardy response : National : DAILY YOMIURI ONLINE (The Daily Yomiuri) (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110315004235.htm)

So he definately was "berating" TEPCO.

But reading other reports in that Japanese paper it's clear that TEPCO were working with the local "prefecture" == government == on the issue at the start. So I can understand some of that. You cant ask a company to have ways of reporting to multiple levels of govermnent when they are LITERALLY fire-fighting.

Another article has the point about the joint HQ for the issue and suggestion there seeems to be tardiness by the govermnent. BUT .... they were in the middle of an earthquake disaster and then a tsunami disaster.

I dont see the point of finger-pointing by either.
It's an example of what was said earlier.
It was an unknown situation for the emergency diesel generator backups not to cover.

All were doing what was humanly possible. It's EASY to use hindsight to say what SHOULD have been done at times but impossible to predict. I'd much rather TEPCO people and managers were compeltely focussed on the problem at hand and the risk to the locals than worrying about the government. Government can do squat to fight the pressure build up. The TEPCO folks were the right and best to do so and best left to get on with it imho.

PS: AND American right wing twats are really coming out of the woodwork now :( http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/ sheez. Love his logic tho' ... fraud happens in America so we shouldnt' let Japanese company build here :)


EDIT: CHeers Dino, looks a more severe view than the Japanese language reporting. Pilling being chief editor may be wanting to gain from emphasising the stress points ? But definately a good balance to have. CHeers

[RacingManiac]

Urged to stay at home I think is more of a SOP more than anything else. It is leaking radiation, there is no need to be out and about and risk exposure even if it is not harmful....

The explosion was a side effect of the preventative action taken from venting into the containment building and reliving pressure from the chamber. In Chernobyl that explosion happened INSIDE the actual reactor and cause the spewing of radioactive substance. All 3 explosion thus far are caused by the same action.

Modified version of original post written by Josef Oehmen | MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub (http://web.mit.edu/nse/) (http://mitnse.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/)

[Dino Scuderia]

NHK reporting new fire at No. 4 and level 6 warning which is between Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

[Dino Scuderia]

The fire is in the fuel rod area. Radiation levels reported 'high'.

[Matra et Alpine]

The level 6 was originally reported by the EU as THEIR interpretation of it.
But a new fire in 4 where the pool stored rods is a worry.
This reactor was in shutdown for repair/servicing.


At around 9:30 AM, a fire broke out around the 4th floor, but was later confirmed to have gone out.
A report suggested that a fire had started due to a fallen crane internally.
Worry might be if it managed to breach the reactor or pipework :(

[RacingManiac]

The TV Asahi report is saying the fire might be caused by hydrogen leak. I am assuming the cooling pool for the spent rod will have the same issue as the reactors themselves if not cooled continuously and can still get hot enough to break down hydrogen and oxygen from water...

The fundemental issue is still trying to keep the cooling going. They need the generators to run to get pumps to work. And they need it at all 6 reactor.

[Matra et Alpine]

It's if the rods get exposed to the air or hot enough so that the zinc gets a chance to interact :(


2235: Tepco spokesman Hajimi Motujuku says the fire at reactor four is in the outer housing of the containment vessel. Its cause is not yet known,
hmmm, worrying. WOnder if they are jsut stretched too far with available expertise to fight so many reactor problems simultaneously. Perhaps they've left the unused reactor whilst focussing on the hot ones :(

[Dino Scuderia]

They haven't figured out how they are going to extinguish this fire...apparently difficult to get to as well as radiation being high. They said the water level got too low in a spent rod pool causing hydrogen leak.

[Dino Scuderia]

Now they're calling it an explosion.

Getting water to all the reactor buildings is the problem...they are using the generator at 6 to get water to 5 etc.

[RacingManiac]

Now its time to worry....TEPCO are withdrawing workers...

[pimento]

They already were withdrawing non-essential dudes. If they start withdrawing essential dudes then we should panic - though more likely they'd go down with the plant. It'd be nice to know a little more about the state of things there though. Apparently three of the four reactors at Daini have achieved cold shutdown, so that's good.

[pimento]

According to Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano, they fear there has been a breach in the core vessel of nuclear reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi.

As a result, radiation levels have skyrocketed and Edano just announced that all workers—50 remained in the facility—have been evacuated from the plant because of this new incident. Emergency containment operations appear to have been suspended temporarily.

The official explanation comes after a new cloud was spotted rising from the plant. Operators initially said that it may be steam, but apparently it's much graver than that. Glenn Sjoden, nuclear engineering professor at Georgia Tech University, says that, the new radiation levels indicate that fission byproducts are now venting from the building.

According to Sjoden, "there has definitely been some level of melting and breach of primary containment." Based on the new levels of radiation, he believes that only partial melting has occurred as "total meltdown" will result in much higher levels of radiation.

Update 1: The Tokyo Electric Power Company has released the image above, showing the state of reactor 4 after today's now-extinguished fire.
Update 2: Reuters reports that workers have returned to the facility to resume emergency operations.
Update 3: According to Japan's nuclear government agency, radiation reached 10 millisievert per hour at one point this morning, "possibly due to damage on reactor number 2 the day before". The agency says that it fell to 6.4 millisievert per hour at 10:45am, 2.3 millisievert at 10:54am and got up to 3.4 millisievert at 11:00am.


Source (http://gizmodo.com/#!5782402/japan-evacuates-all-workers-nuclear-vessel-breach-feared).

[kingofthering]

I don't want to sound insensitive, but from what I've gleaned off Speedhunters, some of the racetracks have taken some damage. Ebisu has lost quite a bit of its garage facilities, Tsukuba too and has canceled all events until further notice, and Sugo is badly damaged.

Of course, none of this matters given the loss of human life. :( Just read an article on how the elderly were basically defenseless.

For Older Japanese, Tsunami’s Carnage Evokes WWII Horrors - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15elderly.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2)

As an ex-psych major, I am curious to see what psychological effects this will have on those in the area down the line. Will it be similar to those who survived the war?

[Matra et Alpine]

Good point k, the question is how much has the cultural memory fogotten the frequency of huge loss liek this Japan has always suffered over the millenia. THere's a reasons all houses were originally of wood and paper !

re the radiation at the moment, the levels are on a par with a person receiving a CT scan and nobody worries about going for one of those ! It's if it lingers long or people dont evacuate that the risk increases with each day. Even one international long haul flight exposes you to half the peak amount of radiation at the moment.

Am disgusted at the UK government attitude .....

British rescue team (not the government team) - International Rescue Corps - is on its way back from Tokyo after the British Embassy in Tokyo refused to give them a letter of authorisation which would allow them entry into the disaster zones and enable them to get fuel. "There's an emptiness and disbelief," said Willie McMartin, IRC Operations Director. "This was the 32nd world disaster we have been to and we've only had problems twice before with host governments in China and Afghanistan. We have never encountered the position where the British embassy, our own country, came up with a show stopper."

[henk4]

re the radiation at the moment, the levels are on a par with a person receiving a CT scan and nobody worries about going for one of those !

you are forgetting/ignoring the time component. A CT scan does not last 24 hours....

[Matra et Alpine]

I was presuming they didnt' stand outside breathing deeply whilst naked :) in my "lingers long" and evacuation note.

But granted.

[pimento]

OK, so it turns out the workers weren't actually evacuated, they just had a break. I guess it was coffee time? More (http://gizmodo.com/#!5782440/50-fukushima-heroes-work-on-as-radiation-levels-soar).

[Badsight]

japanese tv news - in english

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It's (I Don't want to say common) but logical to suggest that perhaps the acceptable radiation dosage levels for the workers is such that they don't want them getting incredibly sick so they pull them out to limit their doses.

It's serious when you're within that 20Km radius, as you would suspect, but most of the doom and gloom simply doesn't take into account the fact that these reactors, unless they get exposed directly to the open air, won't do a Chernobyl.

South Korea is currently loading as much Boric acid as it can to get to Japan to try and minimise the calamity. It's serious, but it's not the end of times.

[Dino Scuderia]

No. 3 seems to be the focus today....the spent fuel pool is losing water and they can't get water to it. It all comes down to the rate of temp increase...meanwhile as temps stay high it causes 'decay'....whatever that means.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Decay, as I understand it, is the breakdown of the nuclear material, which essentially means it becomes much more potent and dangerous.

So not great.

[pimento]

Ya, when it decays it means that radioactive material with a half-life long enough to be a problem escapes. If they can keep the cores intact then the escaping radioactive gunk is nothing within a few minutes.

[Dino Scuderia]

They will likely be returning a couple of nice coal fired power plants in the near future unless the gov't steps in and wants to own and operate nuke plants.

The TEPCO plants there are toast and some of the people that were around when the Fukushima plant was built say they were assured the plant was 100% safe as TEPCO was seeking approval from them. TEPCO didn't even have any evacuation plans for such emergencies which further infuriates the public.

TEPCO also has a sordid past of scandal involving falsified documents which have kept the public skeptical all along regarding nuke power.

[RacingManiac]

Decay Heat: MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub (http://web.mit.edu/nse/) | Information about the incident at the Fukushima Nuclear Plants in Japan hosted by http://web.mit.edu/nse/ :: Maintained by the students of the Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT (http://mitnse.com/)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The Fukushima 1 plant was due to be decommissioned by the end of March, 2011, having been constructed in the late 1970's.

I think TEPCO is simply another example of the Japanese Public losing faith with their government and major institutions, and in some cases with good reason.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Decay Heat: MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub (http://web.mit.edu/nse/) | Information about the incident at the Fukushima Nuclear Plants in Japan hosted by http://web.mit.edu/nse/ :: Maintained by the students of the Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT (http://mitnse.com/)

Thanks for the very useful anti panic info :)
I'd suggest a degree in common sense for all journalists...

[Dino Scuderia]

From bad to worse...conflicting reports....who knows.

Rods completely exposed with no water being reported of one of the pools. Meltdown immanent.

IAEA says partial meltdown confirmed in three of the reactors.

One last go with a water cannon, hope it works.

[RacingManiac]

One news I've heard was that they restored partial power transmission to the plant, I hope that means they maybe able to get the recirc pumps going....they can't be spraying water for the next 6 month to a year....

[Dino Scuderia]

There's been talk of a electric line they found in hopes of powering part of it up.

Watching NHK live now and they have mentioned nothing about it.

[RacingManiac]

Man, the snow and the pending nuclear crisis is eerie to look at.....

[RacingManiac]

Helicopters Dropping Water on Affected Reactors | MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub (http://web.mit.edu/nse/) (http://mitnse.com/2011/03/17/helicopters-dropping-water-on-affected-reactors/)

They are expecting offsite power to be restored Thursday.

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah they are running a cable from 1/2 mile away seemingly to get power so they can use the pumps.

BBC News - Japan steps up moves to cool stricken nuclear reactors (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12768645)

<<<< EDIT: update ....... IAEA Update on Japan Earthquake (http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html) >>>>

and a much more reasonaed and sensible journalist report on the risks .....

Japan's nuclear industry: The risks exposed | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/18398734?story_id=18398734&fsrc=rss)

Hadn't realise it is now FORTY years ago ... so talk of "what they should handle" by sensationalists is a bit off given they are applying 40 years of "knowledge" ! Interesting pub-talk today was --- given they are a General ELectric design and build from back then is it reasonable for them to be charged with recoery costs as they are "involved" ? Or is it only with BP and Gulf Oil that nationalistic bias is permitted to try to bankrupt a business ? Will ALL reports start with "The American General Electric company reactor" ????? :) ... Anyway, back to more sober thoughts.....


<<<< EDIT: update ....... IAEA Update on Japan Earthquake (http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html) >>>>

[pimento]

Yea, it's amazing that these plants survived as well as they did - the fact that they survived the quake unscathed is amazing, if it wasn't for that pesky tsunami we'd not even have heard about just how safe they actually are.

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^ for sure. Another report on the wider issues on the BBC had a tsunami expert say they will be reviewing video of the wave "for months" to build a better understanding of the process.

SO again, another case where those with 20:20 hindisght will try to make claims about how bad things are when in reality they are good given the understanding we have. And next time it will be better. Evolution rocks :)

LOVED the comment from France who have failed to win recent reactor deals because they are much more expensive ... "because they are safer" they are saying. Not really fair to compare a 2010 design with a 1970 one

[pimento]

Here's a handy vid to help you all understand!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA

[NSXType-R]

Those people working to cool those reactors really are doing a noble cause, I hope they all get the recognition they deserve when they get these reactors contained.

[Dino Scuderia]

One very important thing to remember about the Japanese people is they have a very high cancer mortality rate. So this tragedy, whether it turns out there is a wide range of radiation related sickness or not...is going to raise the sensitivity level of the cancer aspect.

Imagine how terrified they already are about cancer, and now this.

[NSXType-R]

One very important thing to remember about the Japanese people is they have a very high cancer mortality rate. So this tragedy, whether it turns out there is a wide range of radiation related sickness or not...is going to raise the sensitivity level of the cancer aspect.

Imagine how terrified they already are about cancer, and now this.

But yet some of the oldest people live in Japan?

That's a bit strange. I know there are a lot of 100 year old plus people in Japan.

[RacingManiac]

Their entire society is like an upside down pyramid. Lots of older people and not enough new born as their younger gen are getting less and less interested in marriage and child birth...

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^ That pretty much sums up all the "first world" nations right now :(

[NSXType-R]

Their entire society is like an upside down pyramid. Lots of older people and not enough new born as their younger gen are getting less and less interested in marriage and child birth...

Not to sound bad or anything, but couldn't this earthquake/tsunami spark a baby boom? I know it's a terrible way to start one, but the world in general had a baby boom right after WWII.

[f6fhellcat13]

That was due to post-war prosperity from strength of industry and a large workforce with easy access to college education through the GI Bill of Rights(on this side of the Atlantic). I don't see the post-recovery period in Japan being an economic boon. If there ever had been a time for Japan's population to increase it would have been during the '80s bubble.

[Commodore GS/E]

Not to sound bad or anything, but couldn't this earthquake/tsunami spark a baby boom? I know it's a terrible way to start one, but the world in general had a baby boom right after WWII.

The difference between this and WWII is that WWII was a war. I'm not sure if it's the same with gigantic nuclear accidents or tsunamis.

[Matra et Alpine]

The Oshika peninsula in Miyagi prefecture has moved 5.3m (17.4 feet) and dropped 1.2m since the devastating March 11 quake - both records for land mass movements in Japan - government data show, according to Kyodo.

Sitting comfortably ? Now imagine your whole neighbourhood had just moved from the half way up the wall in one corner of the room your in to the opposite bottom corner. An easy way to imagine how big an event this was !!!!!

[LotusLocost]

This whole event is just tragic...

Look at this footage from a Coastguard boat about 5km's from shore.
Those waves are huge, even 5km's out...
http://www.adressa.no/tv/?id=16067&autoplay=0&ref=

[teiresias]

What I just saw in the news

U.S. Health Meltdown Over Japan's Nuclear Crisis

What We Know from History and Science
Let's acknowledge there are perfectly rational concerns about the unfolding Japanese disaster and the health harms that radiation can cause. As each day passes, the world's concern rightly mounts as to the long-lasting damage that may be sustained in the region due to the nuclear mess in northern Japan. Experimental atomic blasts in the Pacific atolls in the 1950s and the atomic bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in World War II showed that radiation exposure can cause myriad health horrors, including leukemia and other cancers. Extensive investigations into the health damages of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor meltdown clearly demonstrated that children and adolescents exposed to radioactive fallout had a hundred-fold increase in the risk of developing thyroid cancer.

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah typical American panic :)
Let's compare Chernobyl children a few miles from the worst blast possible with a so far small release over 4000 miles away !
JEEZ if Europe had panicked as much as that then it woudl have been embarrasing :)

[Fleet 500]

Yeah typical American panic :)
Let's compare Chernobyl children a few miles from the worst blast possible with a so far small release over 4000 miles away !
JEEZ if Europe had panicked as much as that then it woudl have been embarrasing :)
A small correction: Typical American media panic. ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

^^ I would have agred 100% normally Fleet, but had read

The panicked phone calls and e-mails from patients and friends concerned about the potential health effects of Japan's nuclear crisis won't quit.

Americans have worked themselves into a panic, however, trying to secure tablets or drops of potassium iodide [KI], which research and experience show to be an effective measure to help protect patients exposed to radioactive iodine from developing thyroid cancer. If the danger were real and concrete, it would be natural for the cautious and wise potentially to want to stock up on potassium iodide. But many pharmacies never carried KI and those that did have run out because of panic buying.
THe media may have whipped it up, but it's not the media making the calls and buying the unecessary !!

( of couse the above is Dr writing in the media though so know it may be double jeopardy :) )

Maybe a sensible investigation on our behalf .... is yout local pharmacy and drug store offering pills ??

[Fleet 500]

^^ I would have agred 100% normally Fleet, but had read


THe media may have whipped it up, but it's not the media making the calls and buying the unecessary !!

( of couse the above is Dr writing in the media though so know it may be double jeopardy :) )

Maybe a sensible investigation on our behalf .... is yout local pharmacy and drug store offering pills ??
But out of the approximately 310 million Americans, how many are "panicked?"

[Matra et Alpine]

Well can you tell ? I was asking the "local test" on your drug store as a balance to the media :)


The concerns over a nuclear crisis in Japan are being shared on America’s west coast. In California, people are taking extra precautions by rushing out to buy potassium iodine pills, which are meant to protect against radiation exposure. One of those people is Aaron Gonzales who went to a health food store to buy his pills.

“When I heard the news, I came to buy them so that I could distribute them to my friends and family,” Gonzalez said.

US government officials have repeatedly told us that the public is safe and that the pills are not necessary, but the US Surgeon General, Regina Benjamin, on a recent trip to California said that she thought buying iodine pills was not an overreaction to an emergency situation.

“It’s definitely appropriate. If we’ve learned anything from Katrina, you need to be prepared as you can.”

Up and down California, pharmacies have been reporting that iodine pills, meant to reduce the harms of radiation exposure, have been flying off store shelves. The same can be said for online retailers who are also sold out and have been telling customers they may have to wait for weeks for another shipment.

On the online auction site E-Bay, a bottle of potassium iodine pills, which usually runs for about $10, is now being sold for hundreds of dollars as people look to profit off of the panic.

So ... wait .... the US Surgeon General doesn't think buying iodine is not and over-reaction ?
Oh man, you guys are doomed with that level of staff at the top !!!!!!

:)


Because more than 70 million CT scans are carried out each year, the US National Cancer Institute has estimated that 29,000 Americans will get cancer as a result of the CT scans they received in 2007 alone. Will this news now mean a panic in the streets and cancellation of CT scans ?? !!

[Fleet 500]

Nobody I know is running out to get iodine pills.
It's probably been several days since those quotes you posted. There is updated info since then.

They are now saying not to buy iodine pills because they won't do any good if they are not needed (and they are not) and because there are side effects.

[Matra et Alpine]

^^ cheers, the hanging question is tho' ..... "were they running out to get them before" :)

[Fleet 500]

Actually, there was a poll about it in a local newspaper last Tuesday...

I know I won't be buying any iodine; I'd rather buy chocolate instead. :D

I also heard that iodine is only effective for children; I wonder if that's true?

[pimento]

I think it's effective for everyone, presuming there's a reason to take it. Basically it fills your thyroid and whatnot with normal iodine, so the nasty radioactive stuff is diluted/pushed out. It also makes you somewhat sick, which is why you don't want to be overreactive and just taking it for no good reason.

Also, 35% is still pretty high - the media personnel really should have people more reassured than that. :)

[Fleet 500]

I think it's effective for everyone, presuming there's a reason to take it. Basically it fills your thyroid and whatnot with normal iodine, so the nasty radioactive stuff is diluted/pushed out. It also makes you somewhat sick, which is why you don't want to be overreactive and just taking it for no good reason.

Also, 35% is still pretty high - the media personnel really should have people more reassured than that. :)
Yeah, I thought there would have been more "yes" votes. As you said, there is the media to consider.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I think it's effective for everyone, presuming there's a reason to take it. Basically it fills your thyroid and whatnot with normal iodine, so the nasty radioactive stuff is diluted/pushed out. It also makes you somewhat sick, which is why you don't want to be overreactive and just taking it for no good reason.

My mother is hyper-thyroid (right word? you got it). Getting iodine could cause her a crisis much worse and faster than radiations. She found out about her conditions a few years ago, and sometimes it's a problem because at restaurants you have to ask them to bring you non-iodine salt. because everyone here thinks we need to get more iodine because of our diet, and there you go.

So getting the iodine without a fold reason could be even more dangerous to some.

[Matra et Alpine]

Way back at the start of it a UK expert on the news said that iodine is known effective in young children who are especially at risk to attack on the growing thyroid. Adults much less so and no real evidence that it has major benefits - and has many drawbacks.
My dosing the body identifies it has enough and rejects all further uptake of iodine, so the radioactive isotope one is flushed next time you pee :)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

There was a remarkable article on The Drum (The ABC's commentary and public gallery site) about the journalism of superlatives;

Clicky Clicky (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/21/3169373.htm)