WTCC Considering Nordschleife...

[RacingManiac]

autosport.com - WTCC News: WTCC eyeing the Nordschleife (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90143)

Thats pretty cool....

[henk4]

apart from the idea which is good, it struck me how minimalistic touring car races actually are these days: They propose a two-lap race....as a photographer it will be very difficult to catch all cars during these two laps, and apart from that, as a spectator, you have about 30 seconds when all cars pass by and then 7 minutes of eerie silence. Once the cars should start to spread out over the track, the finish has already been long before.....

[RacingManiac]

How long are typical WTCC races? 30 min?

[henk4]

How long are typical WTCC races? 30 min?

probably short enough to fit in between two commercial breaks.

[Commodore GS/E]

Interesting, to say the least. I hope the'll do it because that could finally lead to more racing series using the Nordschleife and not just the GP track.
Also, I saw thefirst race of the season last weekend. The Polestar Volvo may not be the fastest car out there, but it sounded insane :eek:.
Also, my bet is on Chevrolet to win (again). They absolutely dominated both races.

[Cobrafan427]

This is a great idea because it would bolster efforts to save the Nordschleife. Two laps does sound very short though even if the mileage/length (time-wise) of the race would be the same as the others on the schedule. Maybe they could double it to 4 or 5 laps and hand out double points.

[LeonOfTheDead]

They would probably cover a full lap in something like 7:30 minutes me thinks, so 4 laps are not such a big deal. The thing is managing to have enough security personnel around the track, while at the same time gathering enough sponsors and people to make it cost effective.

Would be great though. Coming next, DTM and a FIA GT3 round.:cool:

[Ferrer]

Interesting, to say the least. I hope the'll do it because that could finally lead to more racing series using the Nordschleife and not just the GP track.
Also, I saw thefirst race of the season last weekend. The Polestar Volvo may not be the fastest car out there, but it sounded insane :eek:.
Also, my bet is on Chevrolet to win (again). They absolutely dominated both races.
Damn it! WTCC started and I didn't notice!

[ScionDriver]

That's a cool idea, but yeah it sounds like it might still be in the early stages, a lot of kinks to work out on that. They could almost do a couple "heats" or something, like 2 different 2 lap races each race being half points or something. That might not work though and I'm no avid follower of WTCC anyway. I just catch when it is occasionally on American TV.

[Commodore GS/E]

Damn it! WTCC started and I didn't notice!

Yep, I nearly missed it, too. But it isn't hard to sum both races up: Chevrolet dominated, maybe because they had the longest time span to develope and improve their car. The Cruze is massively fast and doesn't have real weaknesses. The only cars that could come close were the BMW's which had nearly similar speed and handling, only with a bit more acceleration at the start line (because of rwd). The Seats were practically statist in the races as they couldn't compete in speed and handling. Their best result was Tarquini finishing fifth in race 2 (but with a big time difference to the one who finished 4th). The Volvo was one of the very few cars that still run on N/A engines, but it finished in an acceptable 12th and 13th place considering that their engine was less powerful and that this ist their first season.
Seems like Chevy has a big lead, though. The BMW teams will probably work on the brakes (because the Chevys managed to outbreak them very often) while Seat hasn't much else to do than wait for the new turbo engines as their TDI isn't competitive anymore. Volvo can't do anything because their single racer isn't a works car. Maybe the'll improve cornering.

There also was a significant amount of car-car and car-wall contact :D.

[Dino Scuderia]

So a couple laps around the 'ring it'd be a very spread out procession.

[Matra et Alpine]

you dont get processions on the 'Ring racing :)
It needs to be minimum 5-6 laps imho and I'd rather see cars trying to pass each other in racing than lap slower cars on a short circuit. Not all "overtakes" are equal :)
( Admit, I hate ovals for that reason :) )

[RacingManiac]

Even if WTCC races only lasts ~30 min, at their lap time(mid 7 min sounds reasonable for ~300bhp car on slicks), they should be able to squeeze 4 laps in....

[henk4]

Even if WTCC races only lasts ~30 min, at their lap time(mid 7 min sounds reasonable for ~300bhp car on slicks), they should be able to squeeze 4 laps in....

in theory but expect several local yellows.....

[Dino Scuderia]

you dont get processions on the 'Ring racing

You will with the disparity of performance Commodore described....unless I'm misreading your meaning and/or due to the nature of the 'ring it's an equalizer in itself.

[Matra et Alpine]

Being a long track with long straights, lots of hill and fast and slow corners there is lots more scope for cars being faster in one section than another and gives LOTS Of scope for setups that take full advantage.

And for me that will avoid processions and give much more interest.

[Kabanache]

Wow thats great. Especially that they all finish in the top 10.

[taz_rocks_miami]

you dont get processions on the 'Ring racing :)
It needs to be minimum 5-6 laps imho and I'd rather see cars trying to pass each other in racing than lap slower cars on a short circuit. Not all "overtakes" are equal :)
( Admit, I hate ovals for that reason :) )

This sounds like a really cool idea, but is Peter is right, how much passing are you going to see in a two lap race? Sure the Ring 12.9 miles long, but 2 laps don´t give you a lot of time to do much. 5 or 6 laps sound better :)

For this reason it makes me wonder if the number of cars competing will be limited for each 2 lap race? Maybe 4 to 6 cars per race? If you have more than that, the cars at the back are pretty much condemned to losing because they won´t have time to get to the front and fight for the lead IMO.

[Matra et Alpine]

I think the issue of failing to pass is true on modern circuits, but with the straights and different lines in to corners that a place like the loop offers then more chances to overtake really. Still say 2 laps is too short though :)

How long till someone suggets the "solution" to concerns over not enoguh chances for overtaking is to start them in reverse grid order :)

[taz_rocks_miami]

How long till someone suggets the "solution" to concerns over not enoguh chances for overtaking is to start them in reverse grid order :)

I was gonna suggest that, but I think it´s a better idea to limit the number of cars per 2 lap race :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Limiting the cars would make it an artificial race though taz :(
HAS to be the full grid.

I still struggle to see the logic that there will be less overtaking.
True ... you dont come to the same corner 15 times.
But you come to many MORE corners with MORE variations for trying overtakes.
AND for me bets of all is the team have to consider wether go for speed on straights or grip on corners etc which in all likelihood I suggest will bring greater differences and actually create situations where cars may overtake EACH OTHER time and again in different sections. Something we hardly see now in racing :(

[taz_rocks_miami]

Limiting the cars would make it an artificial race though taz :(
HAS to be the full grid.

I still struggle to see the logic that there will be less overtaking.
True ... you dont come to the same corner 15 times.
But you come to many MORE corners with MORE variations for trying overtakes.
AND for me bets of all is the team have to consider wether go for speed on straights or grip on corners etc which in all likelihood I suggest will bring greater differences and actually create situations where cars may overtake EACH OTHER time and again in different sections. Something we hardly see now in racing :(

I see what you mean Peter, but even though the Ring does have many corners and some fabulous straights, is that the cars at the back of the grid really won´t have time to move up and even fight for the lead, much less have the oportunity to win :( Sure some overtaking will get done, but the cars at the back are doomed from the begining.

That is why I think a smaller starting grid would give them a fighting chance :)

[Ferrer]

How long till someone suggets the "solution" to concerns over not enoguh chances for overtaking is to start them in reverse grid order :)
AFAIK the second WTCC race is always run with a reversed grid for the first 8 places.

[Matra et Alpine]

Hmmm, the WTCC race at Brazil report is at http://www.fiawtcc.com/html/uploadedFiles/PDF/RP.1.201132022414.pdf

Curitiba ...
Huff won race 1 in 19:29.481
at best it has 15 turns ( I'd call it 8 :) ) so ....
number of turns 14 laps * 15 == 210 corners
14 laps of 3.7km == 52km

Nordschleife ...
for 52km they should do 2 laps
number of corners in those 2 laps is == 340
Need to add in 2 9/10th laps of Nurbugring GP circuit and I was surprised how many more corners there are for overtaking with this option :)

Priaulx lapped in the VLN 24h race in 8:39.194 so 2 laps would be in the region of 17:20.00 , a little faster than I'd like but not a millino miles away from giving the drivers the same amount of TIME on track to overtake, the same DISTANCE on track to vertake and MORE corners to attempt overtaking maneouvers on.

Still want them to do more laps though as I hate these 20 minute "sprint races".

How about instead of the usual WTCC format of 2 20 min races they gave us 5 laps and ONE 40 min race on the 'ring ??

[taz_rocks_miami]

How about instead of the usual WTCC format of 2 20 min races they gave us 5 laps and ONE 40 min race on the 'ring ??

That could work :)

[pimento]

I see what you mean Peter, but even though the Ring does have many corners and some fabulous straights, is that the cars at the back of the grid really won´t have time to move up and even fight for the lead, much less have the oportunity to win :( Sure some overtaking will get done, but the cars at the back are doomed from the begining.

That is why I think a smaller starting grid would give them a fighting chance :)

I'm not sure why the cars at the back of the grid have any less time to catch the front runners than in any other race... the grid size is the same and the race distance in the same, right?

[taz_rocks_miami]

I'm not sure why the cars at the back of the grid have any less time to catch the front runners than in any other race... the grid size is the same and the race distance in the same, right?

The race would only be two laps on the Ring, a 20 minute sprint race as Peter called it. That´s why I think the cars at the back of a normal sized grid would be a disadvantage.

[pimento]

But they're always 20 minute sprint races. Are you thinking there's less overtaking opportunities in one 'ring lap than in 5 laps of a more usual circuit?

[taz_rocks_miami]

But they're always 20 minute sprint races.

Didn´t know that, my bad.



Are you thinking there's less overtaking opportunities in one 'ring lap than in 5 laps of a more usual circuit?

Yeah, that is what I was thinking.

[pimento]

Hmm.. it could be harder, the 'ring's not a very wide track or anything. Not too sure really, anyone have an idea?

[Ferrer]

Hmm.. it could be harder, the 'ring's not a very wide track or anything. Not too sure really, anyone have an idea?
I don't think this would be a problem for WTCC drivers, since they are used to elbowing their way through the field.

Literally.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Yeah, WTCC drivers are used to worse situations. Even if the track is larger enough, they would fit as many cars as possible on parallel trajectories.

Macao comes to mind.

[Commodore GS/E]

I don't think this would be a problem for WTCC drivers, since they are used to elbowing their way through the field.

Literally.

I agree. Also, half of the cars will have crashed by the time they reach the finish line, also because of their driving style.
Should be loads of fun.

[LeonOfTheDead]

They should probably just check the last DTM races held there, and copy&paste.