Well someone has to do it...

[RacingManiac]

New Beetle...again

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_2913.shtml

For what its worth its better looking(IMO) than current one and comes fully realized from the start(also seems more upmarket from the trim level). 2.5 5-banger, 2.0T will be available as well as TDI. Will aslo sport all the current gen VAG stuff like DSG as well as the electronic(ABS emulated) front diff(XDS, as seen on current GTI). In the 2.0T trim its basically a GTI in Beetle clothing, minus the practicality....

New roofline profile looks more interesting and closer to the original. And they have some retro wheel options...

Could be worse I guess...

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I can't see the point of this, but not for the reasons you suspect.

Firstly, the new roofline is pretty nifty, I think it's cool. but the tail lights are just odd choices when the front lights are kept ovoid. Very odd choices.

And the interior! Beetles are meant to be inviting places with quirk and cute. It looks like a straight lift of the interior from a Golf Plus or something. Hardly special.

If you want a sporty car VW do three better than this (Polo GTi, Golf GTi, Scirocco). I must be missing the point or something but when you don't make it cute, and you don't make it tremendously sporty, what are you left with?

[RacingManiac]

A TT.....with VW badge....

That is essentially the same market niche but in lower price bracket....its a marketing car....

TBH the last "new" Beetle is just cheap looking inside, and only "cutesy" touch is the flower holder...And its probably sportier than that Beetle...

[culver]

I don't like the new hood. It seems clear there is a motor up there and it somehow reminds me of the aftermarket hoods that used to find their way onto the old air cooled cars.

The interior is much nicer but forgettable. The exterior is decent and the lower roofline is probably as much about highway mileage as anything. However, again it makes the car less distinct. The rear 3/4 view makes me think this could have been a follow up to the PT Cruiser. I can see as much American roadster in that view as vintage VW.

Like many retro cars when we start to further modernize the details and move from things like the goofy old speedo to a more modern IP cluster the car is better yet loses much of what made it different than the Golf.

[henk4]

I am actually surprised to see a new version. I thought the car had had its moments of glory ten years ago and was now more than ready for retirement. Obviously VAG marketeers have found a new group of potential clients. Not me.

[Matra et Alpine]

My first thought when I saw it was ... PANAMERA :(
Still see the simlarities and wonder WHY woudl you copy the ugliest car on the planet !
I see this as a lose.

[Commodore GS/E]

From my point of fiew, this redesign is a massive win. The old one was HORRIBLE to look at and appealed only to girls. This one is actually (dare I say) quite cool. The engine choices sound promising, and the interior isn't bad, too (I'm not a fan of playmobile-type interiors- sorry).
Now let's see if they really make the Beetle R :D.

[culver]

BTW, aside from the too tall nose (perhaps that's the Euro-make-every-nose-ugly-pedestrian-impact standards at work) I think the profile of the car isn't at all bad. I don't see much original or new Beetle in it but I kind of like it.

[NSXType-R]

Well then what's the difference between the newer Beetle and the Fiat 500? It's the same retro formula, except VW got to it first before Fiat did.

Frankly, I don't like either car.

[RacingManiac]

BTW, aside from the too tall nose (perhaps that's the Euro-make-every-nose-ugly-pedestrian-impact standards at work) I think the profile of the car isn't at all bad. I don't see much original or new Beetle in it but I kind of like it.

I am pretty sure thats it....its the same trend for most cars now....I think a lot more cars has some kind of fender flair on the front purely because the hoodline got higher...

[RacingManiac]

BTW, The only reason I saw more of an "original" beetle in this is because of the flat roofline and the more relatively upright windscreen:

Old: Jalopnik - Drive Free or Die (http://jalopnik.com/#!5793244/commenter-of-the-day-37-horsepower-edition)

Old "New" *2000 VW BEETLE GREAT CONDITION*FULLY LOADED*5 SPEED* For Sale - DragTimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com/classifieds-viewer.php?itemID=200571948765)

[Ferrer]

Commie Euros will have the 1.2 TSi, the 1.4 TSi, the 2.0 TSi and the 1.6 TDi and 2.0 TDi.

Surely thought there at least some overlap with the entire VW lineup. I guess it's consolation price for Uhmericans for not having the Scirocco.

[thebrochureman]

I think it's a big improvment over the last one, i was surprised to see a mrk3 though.

[Dino Scuderia]

One step further and they will have a Chevy HHR or a PT Cruiser.

Bleh.

[RacingManiac]

Those have hatch and cargo space....a Beetle with that is a Golf...

[Dino Scuderia]

I meant in looks.

[culver]

BTW, The only reason I saw more of an "original" beetle in this is because of the flat roofline and the more relatively upright windscreen:

Old: Jalopnik - Drive Free or Die (http://jalopnik.com/#!5793244/commenter-of-the-day-37-horsepower-edition)

Old "New" *2000 VW BEETLE GREAT CONDITION*FULLY LOADED*5 SPEED* For Sale - DragTimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com/classifieds-viewer.php?itemID=200571948765)

I completely understood what you were saying and I would agree.

[Cobrafan427]

Some angles make it look ok others make me hate it. It's funky but all together i don't like it. I see hints of the original in the rear end and how it makes the smooth slope down instead of being interrupted by wheel arches like the mk2.

[VOGUE_MAN]

Worldcarfans is running an article that says they're also building an 'R' model, which will be nice.

My problem with this I'm sure it's a great car and blah blah blah... but I can't help but feel this has the reputation of a girls cars which I think they knowingly did and it was an angle VW exploited over the years - and the mere shape, let alone the convertible version, can only be described as 'cute'. So sadly, no matter what they do or how good they make it, I don't think they're ever going to shake off the image.

[Kitdy]

I am not sure it is going to be a great car. The Jetta seems to be a piece of shit.

The old new Beetle was no good as I recall, and this one isn't all new or anything I think I have read.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Is it just or the rear is a bit too much Galibier-ish?

[henk4]

Is it just or the rear is a bit too much Galibier-ish?

as in Bugatti 57???

[LeonOfTheDead]

as in Bugatti 57???

You wish... as in 16C Galibier, the latest Bug concept.
It's mainly because of the shape of the tail lights.

[pimento]

The funny thing to me is that's not the new New Beatle, it's the new Beatle. The New Beatle is still the New Beatle, because the new Beatle is the Beatle. The original Beatle is still the old Beatle, the New Beatle is still the New Beatle, but the new Beatle is the newest Beatle. So if you can still have a New Beatle, even when it's ten years old and not a current model anymore cos the new Beatle isn't the New Beatle.

I love nomanclementure.

[f6fhellcat13]

Ringo?

[Dino Scuderia]

hehe...

[RacingManiac]

I am not sure it is going to be a great car. The Jetta seems to be a piece of shit.

The old new Beetle was no good as I recall, and this one isn't all new or anything I think I have read.

New Jetta is a POS in US/Canada....because we get the POS one that cost maybe half of the ones in the rest of the world....The same will probably be true for the coming Passat as well...

VW USA now will have pretty distinctive cars in their lineup for "mass market consumption" and "enthusiasts/car snobs"...New Jetta is the first of the former, cheap car with German badge. GLI will be the same as the rest of the world, New Passat will be the former, "Passat" CC will be the latter.

At current VW corporate speak the Golf seems will be left alone, but who knows how long will that last.

New Beetle was always built as an extension from their available platform. So this is as new as the current Golf is new....which is pretty new. I'd imagine they are pricing themselves closer to Mini now, which carries some kind of premium over regular small cars.

VW removed some of the stuff that made them different in US from the typical Japanese to compete with Japanese. The problem is that their ability to build a "Civic" or "Corolla" is not quite as good as Honda or Toyota...but buyers are buying them, so I guess its working...

[culver]

The new US model Jetta and Passat illustrate something I have said for a long time. This forum is great in part because we have a mix of Europe, South Pacific and North America. We get to hear the views and sometimes the misconceptions about the markets of other parts of the world. People often say American cars are cheaply built. Well that was true in part due to the financial issues the formerly Big3 were facing for a long time. However, what people seemed to overlook was much of the criticism they applied to the US domestics actually applied to most cars targeted at the US domestic market. What we are seeing is not a case of the Big 3 didn't know what they were doing but instead they did have a good idea what the US market wanted (even if they couldn't always deliver).

The US market seems to be more willing to accept low cost interiors in favor of a lower sicker price. The US market doesn't mind large displacement engines. We have historically seen the extra displacement as an upgrade, not a sign someone didn't do their job. We have often wanted something that road better. We often haven't needed upgraded brakes.

So now we see VW trying to make special models specifically for the US. Note the differences between those models and the Euro versions. The US versions are larger, ride softer, have cheaper interiors and larger engines. What did Honda do when they split the US and rest of the world Accords? Well they showed VW what to do. The US Accord became bigger, had a cheaper interior, softer handling, and a larger motor than the Euro version. The same is true of the Toyota Camry and likely a bunch of Nissan products. It has certainly been true of Euro vs US Ford and GM products though in that case the models rarely had common roots.

In the end it's important to remember that even though most cars are sold around the world, most markets aren't homogeneous and often the "failings" of cars from another market are really market preferences vs car makers being "dumb".

I'm interested to check out the new VWs. We've had a few in the family and one of the things I liked was the high quality interiors. Though I will say while Dad's '98 Passat interior was nicer than my SAAB 900 when new, my SAAB interior held up much better.

[Dino Scuderia]

Will be interesting how it pans out for VW.

The new Passat begins official production this week. I suspect it will be at the bottom of the list when compared to it's main competition from other companies just as the Jetta.

[henk4]

well basically VW is trying to be "premium" in Europe and middle of the road in the USA.

[thebrochureman]

If VW try to be too Premium in Europe they will be edging close to BMW and merc, I'm not say they can't and their no good because i think VW are good at being Premium, the VW Phanton for example , I love that car, it’s luxury without being too showy. I think the Jetta and Passat are great cars which are especially good for long journeys.

[NSXType-R]

well basically VW is trying to be "premium" in Europe and middle of the road in the USA.

Why do they need to do that when they have Audi, Porsche, Bentley and Buggati? :p

[thebrochureman]

I agree, thats why i said they could find them selves edging to close to BMW, merc ect.

[Ferrer]

The new US model Jetta and Passat illustrate something I have said for a long time. This forum is great in part because we have a mix of Europe, South Pacific and North America. We get to hear the views and sometimes the misconceptions about the markets of other parts of the world. People often say American cars are cheaply built. Well that was true in part due to the financial issues the formerly Big3 were facing for a long time. However, what people seemed to overlook was much of the criticism they applied to the US domestics actually applied to most cars targeted at the US domestic market. What we are seeing is not a case of the Big 3 didn't know what they were doing but instead they did have a good idea what the US market wanted (even if they couldn't always deliver).

The US market seems to be more willing to accept low cost interiors in favor of a lower sicker price. The US market doesn't mind large displacement engines. We have historically seen the extra displacement as an upgrade, not a sign someone didn't do their job. We have often wanted something that road better. We often haven't needed upgraded brakes.

So now we see VW trying to make special models specifically for the US. Note the differences between those models and the Euro versions. The US versions are larger, ride softer, have cheaper interiors and larger engines. What did Honda do when they split the US and rest of the world Accords? Well they showed VW what to do. The US Accord became bigger, had a cheaper interior, softer handling, and a larger motor than the Euro version. The same is true of the Toyota Camry and likely a bunch of Nissan products. It has certainly been true of Euro vs US Ford and GM products though in that case the models rarely had common roots.

In the end it's important to remember that even though most cars are sold around the world, most markets aren't homogeneous and often the "failings" of cars from another market are really market preferences vs car makers being "dumb".

I'm interested to check out the new VWs. We've had a few in the family and one of the things I liked was the high quality interiors. Though I will say while Dad's '98 Passat interior was nicer than my SAAB 900 when new, my SAAB interior held up much better.
This post deserves a +10.

And I would add that not only bigger engines, but more powerful and faster accelerating in general.

And which is why the one Ford strategy will probably end in tears.

[LHamilton_w]

Will be interesting how it pans out for VW.

The new Passat begins official production this week. I suspect it will be at the bottom of the list when compared to it's main competition from other companies just as the Jetta.

Really dislike how VW is going for quantity over quality TBH. Only time will tell if such a strategy pays off.

[Commodore GS/E]

What's interesting is that VW wins nearly every single comparison test here- not only at german magazines (which do have a bias towards VW as far as I can see). And while VW's reliability isn't top notch here, either, it's nowhere near as bad as in the US.

[Badsight]

i like it more than the current one

current one nose is ugly & spoils the lines

[RacingManiac]

Really dislike how VW is going for quantity over quality TBH. Only time will tell if such a strategy pays off.

If they are decently reliable over their life then I think it could work. But Somehow I doubt it will be comparable to Toyota or something...Lots people are probably buying it now as it is "surprisingly affordable"....hopefully that won't translate to a lot of surprised, disgruntle owners....

[culver]

Will be interesting how it pans out for VW.

The new Passat begins official production this week. I suspect it will be at the bottom of the list when compared to it's main competition from other companies just as the Jetta.

What's going to be tough for VW is they used to be cars you bought in spite of their very poor reputation for reliability because you loved the feel of the car. My father said his first Passat was getting an A4 with a $10k discount. The problem is when the new car isn't emotionally better than an Accord or Camry, why risk VW service and reliability. I would say the best thing VW has going for them is the Accord and Camry's styling has been so unappealing recently that many people are at least willing to look at a family sedan with clean conservative lines (as the Honda and Toyota used to have).

[RacingManiac]

What's going to be tough for VW is they used to be cars you bought in spite of their very poor reputation for reliability because you loved the feel of the car. My father said his first Passat was getting an A4 with a $10k discount. The problem is when the new car isn't emotionally better than an Accord or Camry, why risk VW service and reliability. I would say the best thing VW has going for them is the Accord and Camry's styling has been so unappealing recently that many people are at least willing to look at a family sedan with clean conservative lines (as the Honda and Toyota used to have).

Exactly how I feel. VW used to be the emotive buy(in US, remember we don't get those other emotive european brand, like Alfa, though that is changing), they cost a bit more, likely to have more problem, but it is "German", and not your run of the mill beige brand, and they might drive better, feel better, whatever. Right now with the cheap price people are buying them because "hey, VW is cheaper and more affordable", but as soon as that wave wears off, if they lose what essentially attract people(like myself) to them, they will lose that image and customer base....

[Ferrer]

Well, if the Japanese car makers can pull it off, I don't see why Volkswagen can't. In any case they will still retain some driver oriented choices, and I guess that culver hits the nail in the head, they don't want you to have an A4 at a discount, they want you to upgrade to an A4, with its fatter profit margins.

[LeonOfTheDead]

What's going to be tough for VW is they used to be cars you bought in spite of their very poor reputation for reliability because you loved the feel of the car. My father said his first Passat was getting an A4 with a $10k discount. The problem is when the new car isn't emotionally better than an Accord or Camry, why risk VW service and reliability. I would say the best thing VW has going for them is the Accord and Camry's styling has been so unappealing recently that many people are at least willing to look at a family sedan with clean conservative lines (as the Honda and Toyota used to have).


Exactly how I feel. VW used to be the emotive buy(in US, remember we don't get those other emotive european brand, like Alfa, though that is changing)...

I was going to say exactly that.
My father had a 1998 Alfa 156 and a 2000 or 2001 VW Passat (the latter as a company car).

He never mentioned he owned the Passat. The whole family still love tha 156, and we sold it at the end of 2002 after 210.000 trouble-free km.

The Passat was an overall better car. Better equipped, roomier, with a smoother engine and less cabin noises. But it was crap to drive and way too stiff. The Alfa actually had stiffer suspensions, but it could actually handle. The Passat was stiff and incapable of facing a corner without feeling like a plastic bottle in the middle of the ocean.

Given the same realibility (we did far less miles with the Passat) and a comparable price if equally equipped with the various options, there was no rational advantage over the Passat, and it probably has been the only German we owned.
Well my brother had a very old Ibiza (with Porsche's fuel injection, WOW...) and the Croma is 1/3 Saab, 1/3 Opel and 1/3 Fiat, still...

[Ferrer]

Well my brother had a very old Ibiza (with Porsche's fuel injection, WOW...) and the Croma is 1/3 Saab, 1/3 Opel and 1/3 Fiat, still...
That's not really German, is it...

[LeonOfTheDead]

That's not really German, is it...

It was probably the only properly Spaniard Seat (mk1), but I still look at it as a half German car. It rode like one.

[Ferrer]

It and the Malaga saloon version are the only bespoke Seats that I can remember.

[LeonOfTheDead]

That was still a Ritmo though, being based on the Ronda.

EDIT: according to some Wiki pages, even the mk1 Ibiza was based on the Ritmo.
So we owned to Ritmos without even knowing it!

[Ferrer]

So it's not German, it's actually Italian!

[LeonOfTheDead]

It's been far too long to remember how was the ride in the Ritmo. It reminds me of a brick, as much as the mk1 Delta. Both were pretty much indestructible too.
So yeah, brick is probably the best definition.

[Kitdy]

Malaga is a pretty bad name for a car. It is an ugly word (at least in English and French), and has mal in it, which is French for sick.

[LeonOfTheDead]

It appears in Greece it got a different name because it was too similar to a local swear.
Malaga icecream is a bliss though.

[Ferrer]

It's a Spanish city.

Once they stopped being like the rebadged Fiats they were, Seats started to be named after geographical locations in Spain.

[Matra et Alpine]

But Kitdy, Malaga was the place to go (once) for all the kids and the best dj's and clubs !
GOD I feel old now :(

[LeonOfTheDead]

But Kitdy, Malaga was the place to go (once) for all the kids and the best dj's and clubs !
GOD I feel old now :(

wasn't that Ibiza?
Or maybe your old to know that and I'm too young to know Malaga's parties?! :D

Not my kind of fun anyway.

[Ferrer]

Ibiza is still (one of) the way(s) to go.

[LeonOfTheDead]

So I'm old as well. Thought it was outdated. I've heard Greece is invaded by British drunk kids so much that they basically divided in two areas a small island my parents went to. The nicer part of the island was quite, with hotels, restaurants and all.
The other side was just clubs, pubs and drunk dudes sleeping in the middle of the street.

[Ferrer]

Yes, southern Catalunya (Costa Daurada) is also invaded by British drunk kids. Thankfully up north (Costa Brava), we are much safer from those.

[pimento]

Malaga is a rather boganey suberb of Perth too..

[Ferrer]

I think Seat should a do a new Malaga to cash in the retro fad, like this new New Beetle.

Aaaand we are back on topic.

Or something.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I was talking to the gf about the new Beetle this morning. Her mother once owned a model from the sixties. Mind you, they are Mexican after all.

Anyway, she just couldn't see the point of "another" Beetle. The mk2 was pretty much a crappy features-less Golf, and once the initial hype was over, struggled to sell.

Now it's a bit different because of the "Mini effect" which introduced the premium thing also to the lower end of the market. In Italy the Golf is already considered premium for some unknown and inexplicable reasons, and the New Beetle was/is consider quite a girly car.
I've see only a few new Sciroccos, so VW better price this wisely.

Price may not be the only success factor, as yesterday I've seen my second Seat Exeo in what, 2 years? I've also see one of the few last gen Toledos. Unfortunately.

[Ferrer]

It's curious, I thought Italy was a style conscious country and that there the Scirocco would be a success. Here you can see them pretty often, and curiously very few are diesels.

Exeo is a success too.

[LeonOfTheDead]

It's curious, I thought Italy was a style conscious country...

Excuse me?!

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media-cdn/jj1/headlines/2009/12/jersey-shore-ratings.jpg

I know they are not properly Italians, but they would blend in nicely.

The kind of Italy you're talking about does exist, but I'm afraid it's like a minority report, without Tom "Super-Ego" Cruise.

[NSXType-R]

Excuse me?!

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media-cdn/jj1/headlines/2009/12/jersey-shore-ratings.jpg

I know they are not properly Italians, but they would blend in nicely.

The kind of Italy you're talking about does exist, but I'm afraid it's like a minority report, without Tom "Super-Ego" Cruise.

HAHA!

One of the main stars from Jersey Shore went to my high school.

I am super embarrassed.

[LeonOfTheDead]

HAHA!

One of the main stars from Jersey Shore went to my high school.

I am super embarrassed.

You better.
I'm embarrassed for sharing the same nationality with some of their ancestors.

EDIT: wait a second, they went to high school?! I'm shocked.

[ScionDriver]

I'm not impressed. It's better but still isn't great. The last one looked good for a while then got kind of dated and they never really did anything about it. I still wouldn't buy one and I think overall it's kind of a lame car.

[Commodore GS/E]

Well, at least it's available with a 2.0t and a 6-speed manual transmission. That's not bad.
Would have been cooler if they would have made it an RR layout like the original Beetle, though. I mean now that VW's bought Porsche, they have all the RR knowledge of the world...

[Ferrer]

Well, at least it's available with a 2.0t and a 6-speed manual transmission. That's not bad.
Would have been cooler if they would have made it an RR layout like the original Beetle, though. I mean now that VW's bought Porsche, they have all the RR knowledge of the world...
Unfortunately they just recently discovered the word profits...

[NSXType-R]

You better.
I'm embarrassed for sharing the same nationality with some of their ancestors.

EDIT: wait a second, they went to high school?! I'm shocked.

What's worse is that they're a form of entertainment. I'm not sure what's so entertaining about them.

[ScionDriver]

What's worse is that they're a form of entertainment. I'm not sure what's so entertaining about them.

People are morons.

[Commodore GS/E]

People are morons.

D'oh.

[pimento]

The thinking behind these things is that the dumber you make something, the more people can enjoy it - lowest common denominator and all that. Thickoes can whoop and holler at their televisions while the rest of us wince in horror.. then occasionally tune in 'to see the train wreck'. As this prooves, they've yet to hit the bottom of the barrel for this tactic - which might be saying something about the general thickening of the populace.