New racing and exotic based car club

[FastDriver]

Hello fellow petrol heads,

I am working on building one of the most exciting car clubs imaginable in the United States. I am not advertising here, You can verify that by noticing I will not give out the car clubs name. I would like to know, however, before I spend too much money in this project, how many people who own expensive super cars would be interested. I come from a well versed background in racing and fine automobiles. I've had a passion for cars since I was about 3. I had a micromachine Lamborghini Countach, this was back in 1985, and yes I still love that car! So with that said lets move forward! :)

Here are some little bits about the car club...

unique member number id card*
monthly cruise day (regulated by state representative)
Track days (go to race tracks around the US and have fun for the day. track fees paid for by the car club)
Annual rally circuit in location to be determined (all members welcome)
Free anytime use of the members only private testing track (this is in production mode and i cannot release the circuit layout but trust me its really nice)

There are a few small hitches which is why I do not advertise this car club;
for one, it is only for rare sport and exotic cars (around 2000 produced anually or less) for example if you had a stock corvette you would not qualify, however if you had a ZR1 come right in :)
next the private test track is going to be fenced off with a security passworded gate, so only members will be allowed to use it and i don't want to give away the location (somewhere in the US)
There is a small $5,000 fee which will give you a lifetime membership. (member fee will go to maintaining and progressing the test track along with paying for track day fees for all members.)
members will be able to vote on how to spend the car club money.
must be at least 25 years old.

There are much more options and privleges from being the car club, for one you will be in a unique driving club where you can hang out with other people who have a love for exotic cars and drive around on the test track and talk about your cars with them. The annual rallys will be set up in the gumball rally format. Although we cannot condone speeding since that is illeagle.

If you like this vote yes, if not vote no

Thanks for taking the time to read and feel free to give suggestions, because this is all about the members and if you think you might be a future member, lets hear what you got :)

*updated info

[aiasib]

First, welcome to UCP.

These clubs are really common in Europe; are they not also common in the US?

Also, I would like to hear more about your well versed background in racing and fine automobiles.

If I were you I would focus on how the math a bit more:
$5,000 x 100 members (which is a huge number considering the niche-ness of your idea) = $500,000 one-time payment? IS it a one-time payment? Because $500,000 won't cover diddly, especially for private test track maintenance, the on-call mechanic, the inevitable clubhouse, track days, the miscellaneous costs, salaries, etc etc.

I guess my question is, what will make your club different or more attractive than the other clubs like this that already exist?

ps: you did NOT just write "illeagle".
pps: Micromachines FTW. Did it have the thermochromatic paintjob that changed colors when you washed in hot/cold water?

[henk4]

Is this not all the purpose of the various owner clubs of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo and you name it?

[FastDriver]

no, it did not have the thermochromatic paintjob, it actually was just a white lamborghini countach. sorry if my spelling is sub-par, i am not an English major. One of my many downfalls :p

Let me address some of your questions:

I will be putting mostly my own money into building the private test track. I will keep building it even if no one joins the car club, for my personal use, and for training my son, so he can someday be a good driver if he choses to race. The cost of the track is no problem.

The maintenance on the track will be done periodically, no on call mechanic. If the pavement breaks, then i will just have someone come fix it, no big deal. I will probably be doing the cleaning of the track myself and mowing of the grass myself as well. Its something to do on the weekends anyway :)

And again I really don't plan on having anyone on salaries. The car club will have a revolving credit line, as it goes, new people will join and old people will eventually die. keeping a continuous flow of funding. And look at it this way. If you have a track day, you wouldn't expect all 100 members to show up. maybe 1/4 would actually be able to all agree on a given day. This is how things go.

I used to race online Nascar Racing 2003 season for a few years, 6 hours a day. Then Rfactor. I had racing leagues on the sim comunity and from my experience it was rare that everyone would show up to a race, and those were schedualed, so you can imagine how it would be when people have to travel to get to a track. Since I am married now, i don't have time to mess about with all that online racing community, but I think the car club would be a good thing for us to do as a family.

I have a son who is only one year old now, Once I pass away he would be in charge of the car club, so Is a family thing.

As far as what will my my club different and more attractive, well what I am hoping is to have a car club with others who appreciate a proper sports car. There are lots of car clubs that let just anyone with a car join. I want this to be a more focused club. Exotic and rare sports cars. Driving them fast, the way they were meant to be driven on our own private test track. This is a free track for all members to use! And you will be sharing it with only the best cars, not someone in a mazda mx5 or a ford mustang. There are plenty of clubs out there for those cars.

If there was already a car club that had a track i could drive fast on anytime of the day any day i wanted, I would definitely pay the $5,000 to join. I haven't found one, so I am starting one on my own.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I fail to see what would be interesting or different in this club.
There are already quite some of them with similar characteristics and even private tracks. Some of them offers other cars and racing/driving schools. The Ascari Race Resort comes to mind.

I agree with aiasib on the very low level of incomes. You should be more than an established name to have people getting there from other places, and it's difficult to think you'd have enough locals to decently cover the costs.
Then again building a race track (seriously?) is such an expensive deal I don't even know why you should ask the 5.000 $ fee.

Not sure if a weekend would be enough for mowing the grass all around a race track. AND online/sim racing isn't racing background. I'd be a frigging rockstar by now. I know there are a few (one or two) exceptions, but that's it.
At the same time I'm wondering how you earned so much money to build a race track while playing 6 hours a day.

Last but not least, piking up members only based on their cars wouldn't make it a better club. There are plenty of ***holes with expensive toys and even more true enthusiasts who can't afford anything more than an MX-5. As if it was a crappy car...

[FastDriver]

I fail to see what would be interesting or different in this club.
There are already quite some of them with similar characteristics and even private tracks. Some of them offers other cars and racing/driving schools. The Ascari Race Resort comes to mind.

I agree with aiasib on the very low level of incomes. You should be more than an established name to have people getting there from other places, and it's difficult to think you'd have enough locals to decently cover the costs.
Then again building a race track (seriously?) is such an expensive deal I don't even know why you should ask the 5.000 $ fee.

Not sure if a weekend would be enough for mowing the grass all around a race track. AND online/sim racing isn't racing background. I'd be a frigging rockstar by now. I know there are a few (one or two) exceptions, but that's it.
At the same time I'm wondering how you earned so much money to build a race track while playing 6 hours a day.

Last but not least, piking up members only based on their cars wouldn't make it a better club. There are plenty of ***holes with expensive toys and even more true enthusiasts who can't afford anything more than an MX-5. As if it was a crappy car...

can you give me some references to these other exotic car clubs that have private track, track days, monthly cruises and annual rally? I would like to check them out, it might help me get an idea of what people will think about my car club. Thanks for the input, very helpful :)

The reason I am making this club for exotic and rare cares only is because of the fact there are so many clubs out there that feature your run of the mill sports cars and roadsters. To me it is not that exciting seeing a car club with cars you see on a daily basis to begin with. Think about a cruz day, with nothing but rare and exotic cars rolling down your block. Now that is something to see. but a bunch of 2011 mustangs, camaros and challengers rolling down the street is boring. I see like 20 of those a day...

This is definately not the right club for everyone, but then again, that is the whole point. I want a club with people who enjoy the same type of cars as me. I love exotics and rare classic cars. If its not something you are really into, there are lots of mustang/corvett/mx-5/Vauxhall Astra clubs that plenty of people enjoy being a part of. And that is great, if that gets your rocks off. But this is what I am into, variety and unique high performance automobiles. I am just trying to make something no one else has made yet. Ive done the math, the $5,000 one time fee is very reasonable, and more than enough.

[LeonOfTheDead]

It actually came to mind something called Sunday Morning Drive.

It happens, I guessed it, every Sunday Morning in HK. Plenty of exotic owners show up with their cars. And it's free.
Then every now and then local exotic dealer SPS organizes track events. Same is done by a Chinese dealer, FFF.

As I said, the Ascari Race Resort is already a reference, also for car companies when they need a track for reviews or photoshoots.

[FastDriver]

Is this not all the purpose of the various owner clubs of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo and you name it?

Im sure Europe has lots of great car clubs, I haven't found anything like what I am trying to do here in America, but I think it will be fun, and I am not going to try to convince people that they should join me. I have friends that already want to join and if its just a small croud of 10 or 20 outstanding fellows then thats good enough for me.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I'm still wondering on the financial side of this business.

[Ferrer]

And you will be sharing it with only the best cars, not someone in a mazda mx5 or a ford mustang.
What's wrong with an MX-5?

[LeonOfTheDead]

What's wrong with an MX-5?

It's not a diesel econobox, that's what.

[FastDriver]

I'm still wondering on the financial side of this business.
That is my job. I majored in math and physics and took business classes in college, I think I can handle that part of it


What's wrong with an MX-5?
nothing at all wrong with an mx-5 its a spectacular automobile, it just isn't very rare and there-fore not the type of car for this club. but if you want to join a mazda club, there are more than plenty to go around :)

[FastDriver]

It actually came to mind something called Sunday Morning Drive.

It happens, I guessed it, every Sunday Morning in HK. Plenty of exotic owners show up with their cars. And it's free.
Then every now and then local exotic dealer SPS organizes track events. Same is done by a Chinese dealer, FFF.

As I said, the Ascari Race Resort is already a reference, also for car companies when they need a track for reviews or photoshoots.

sorry i missed your post. There is one small problem though. I live in America. Quite a trip from China ;)

[LeonOfTheDead]

sorry i missed your post. There is one small problem though. I live in America. Quite a trip from China ;)

There is something like that in Irvine, California.
Pretty sure there are others.

My point about the financial side of the business is that building a race track is not something you can do with spare coins, and I'm afraid there is no degree capable of granting the necessary funds as a given fact.

So what I'm playing is that you're either already disgustingly rich or just long term dreaming.

[Matra et Alpine]

two words kill the idea I'm afraid ... "Personal liability" :(

Getting insurance to cover the track will be horrendously expensive and will be required to meet stringent safety. ie run-off areas, barriers, separation of driving from spectating and a million other things.

Dont think you've gone over the math enough. If $5K is a lifetime and free to use then you require new members ona regular basis to pay for upkeep, operations, medical cover, insurance etc etc. BUT if you attract more members then by definiation there is then less track time availabel for members. It's a self defeating financial model. The more it attracts the less attractive it is to join :(

Also, what size of track are you thinking of ? How wide, how long ?
Owners of exotics dont go to short (<1mile) tracks and not happy if less than 30 ft wide AND performance grade tarmac, with suitable subconstruction. eg an Evo on sticky ribber can tear up the tarmac and cause rippling in braking zones. These aren't things that are "patchable" and require complete removal, regrading and relaying :(

Also, I'd strongly suggest not building a track to teach on, he will learn more by driving more different circuits. One circuit leads to a limited skillset :( Spend the money on travelling to as many ciruits as possible and if planning a race career as soon as possible get him racing in karts ( ie 8 years old ). THEN there is a chance to grow the skill set in time to take advantage in the pinnacle of motorsport.

[FastDriver]

all good points, but on one point, it being a private track i am not required to have insurance or medical coverage. It is going to be a private track on private property. Also I will higher an outside contractor to do the paving of it properly, not much to do once the track is made. It should be well constructed an not break too incredibly often. The track will be about as wide as a 4 lane road with a 1/4 mile strait. lots of nice corners and the entire length according to my pre production work comes out to be little more than 1.5 miles.

Second thing, yes of course I will be putting my son into racing leagues if that is what he wants, but it will be fun to drive on a home track also. Its all in the sport of having fun and driving fast cars around fun corners! This is gonna be great fun! But its not for everyone, so i can understand if it doesn't interest you.

[henk4]

all good points, but on one point, it being a private track i am not required to have insurance or medical coverage. It is going to be a private track on private property. Also I will higher an outside contractor to do the paving of it properly, not much to do once the track is made. It should be well constructed an not break too incredibly often. The track will be about as wide as a 4 lane road with a 1/4 mile strait. lots of nice corners and the entire length according to my pre production work comes out to be little more than 1.5 miles.

Second thing, yes of course I will be putting my son into racing leagues if that is what he wants, but it will be fun to drive on a home track also. Its all in the sport of having fun and driving fast cars around fun corners! This is gonna be great fun! But its not for everyone, so i can understand if it doesn't interest you.

so in case of a private track on private property, you can invite people to race, and they will not be able to hold you liable in case something goes wrong?

[FastDriver]

so in case of a private track on private property, you can invite people to race, and they will not be able to hold you liable in case something goes wrong?

that is correct. Here in America you can get a legal document called a liability waiver. It pretty much is like a piece of paper that says "drive at your own risk" meaning, if you crash and wreck your car and get hurt, it is your fault. People in America really love a good law suit and that is why we have these documents :)

[Matra et Alpine]

NOBODY will come with a 200K car and NOT expect to have some form of third party liabaility protection against your staff doing somethind stupid or another driver doing somethign stupid.

I think you should canvas typical potential customers. Certainly in the UK guys with beat up ford "trackday" cars dont care about things like that. Over here with decent cars we expect the track provider to ensure there are sufficient marshals, fire safety and medical safety cover.

Also "liability waivers" dont work if negligence is shown. Certainly not in the UK/Europe.

So I wish you the best, but do your research on those topics before creating an expensive white elephant. ( Rough estimate from maintaining tracks over here. If you are going to build a decent length track of "competition quality" then you are looking at minimum of $1.5-2M !! )

Another question to ask is how many potential members are within driving distance ?
IN A high performance sports car ?? Maybe, if you have the land you should copy the idea I've seen over here where you provide garage/storage facilities for the cars too. Then a "member" just turns up and drives. PLUS is the service/maintenance of the vehicles provides an income stream to pay for the facility.

[FastDriver]

oh yes, that is already an idea implimented in the construction of the track. I would like to have at least 20 garages available (like a storage garage) where someone could put their own lock on it and there would be electrical power provided through solar panels on the roof of the garage. I am only 29 years old, so I figure I have 30 years to get it all figured out. Id like to have something fun to do when I retire. I am currently working as a turbine engine maintainer and am working on getting my commercial Pilots liscence with a company that will place me into an airline position of first officer after working for them for 6 months as an instructor. If there are any pilots on here, you know it is a good job to retire from. So yes, this is a long term project and if nothing else I will still have the car club, and if no one wants to drive on my track, I will use it for driving my own cars for fun. Something to do when I hit 60 and I don't have to go to work every day :)

[Matra et Alpine]

hmmm, by the time 30 years has passed this likely wont be required by the vast majority.
Sounds like its the classic/historic owners you'd be getting by then and their needs become even more different :(

Also, 30 years time is way too late for your kid. If you are buidling a track you need to have it down in the next 6-7 years if you hope to offer him the chance to practice enough to build a skill early enough to give him a chance at the top. ( Unless he likes Nascar :) )

Not intending to pour cold water on your dreams, but trying to splash some cold water realism in your face :)

I do think you should decide quickly if this is for your son to try to build a racing skill or a retirement toy for you in 30 years time. As quickly as possible do the research to decide and then get all your effort behind the choice. Remember a poorly executed track will cost and attract nobody. A poorly constructed business plan will stall quickly. First step I'd say is to get along to as many trackdays run by specific marques and clubs and hav a structured interview to run against as many owners/potential "investors" as you can to see if it's go/no-go.

For your kid you'd be better creating a financial plan so that when he's old enough you can afford a winnebago with tools and competitive kart and time/cash for you to go to as many events as possible.

[FastDriver]

That is good advice Alpine, I would definately get him into karting in a league at the youngest age possible, the track would just be nice to have but if it doesn't work out, no big deal, there are plenty of racing leagues for him to join. I found this info on another forum. paving costs of a flat road course.

quoted from 2ndY2Kse on Good-Win Racing forum

"Typical roadway 12inch cut, grade, and compact $ 28.00 sqyd
Stone road base 6 to 8 inch $ 28.00 sqyd
Asphalt per each inch of thickness (4to6 req) $ 8.00 sqyd
Then add price of land close to city $40K ac
Land not convient to anything $5K ac"

[Matra et Alpine]

12" grade ? Not for a race track :(
Depends on your ground but, that wouldn't work here where we get rain, snow and the occasional warm dry day and run Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo and single seaters :)
Most important that a track never forms tramlines or develops ripples in the braking areas or it isnt' predictable and folks wont want to drive fast on it.
I'm assuming you are still wanting your "prestige cars" to want to come to it regularly ?

Even on your prices, 1 yard of length of track is about $300 per linear yard.
SO a decent (short) 1mile is $510,000 just for the track.
Then you need run offs dug and filled with safe "Kitty litter" --- and screeded daily.
Then you need armco safety barrier and - because you are going "prestige" an air barrier or as minimum tyre barrier on outside protecting cars from the armco.
Armco (based on NUrburgring costs) is another $150/yd. Presume a nice twisty track then 1/3 of it needs armco minimum, so now we're up to $3/4M and haven't even built marshal posts, paddock, pitlane, pits, service bays in the pits etc etc et :(
Assume you can get away with tyres (liability issues :() then possibly "free" from recycling centres :) Air barrier is uber expensive .... but the plus it will attract bikers :)
Just trying to use back of an envelope budgetary pricing and THAT is for a short track.
If you want a decent track with undulations, challenging curves and decent straight so a performance car can actually stretch it's legs you need to double that.
One and a half a million dollars invested on that then :(

A top kart with blueprinted engine and new rubber for every event you could run 5-6 seasons for that :) If you want to guarantee to win you will need to do that :( After that you'd hope he has attracted interest and sponsorship ( presuming he builds the skills ) to then become self-funding.

[FastDriver]

well before i say anything i would not mix cars and bikes on a track, i know a lot of tracks do that, but im not going for that. I was under the assumption that the Nurburgring had basic hard walls. that is what it looks like to me.

So basically what you are saying is "build a rally course" instead? :) i guess i didn't expect a paved road to cost as much. how can it cost that much to build a simple tarmac strip of track? it doesn't seem like the materials to do that would be so expensive. There must be a better way...

So maybe it would just be better for the car club to pay for track days once a month. something like that would be 1000 times cheaper. Then I would just make it free to join and everyone would pay their own track fee, which if based on the cost to drive the nurburgring would be about $10 per lap, calculate 20 - 25 laps in a good day might make it $250. So That might work, but i am still gonna build a track. Even if it ends up being dirt, we could race some old junkers around it for fun ;)

[clutch-monkey]

if i recall correctly, cyco did some local investigation here and after CAMS certification and all that jazz it ends up costing close to a 700k-1mill per kilometre of track.. not including support facilities. it's just insane.

[FastDriver]

OK, so ill have to make some contacts with the wonderful people from CAMS and work out some free airline tickets for free tarmac haha ;)

[Ferrer]

It's not a diesel econobox, that's what.
Indeed, it is not as a good as a Fabia 1.6 TDi, but it still is quite good.

[FastDriver]

ok so 2M for the Asphalt 1.5 mile road course.
dirt track of the same length - $1,200/wk for buldozer

who is up for racing some 1980s Bmws through the dirt!? :)

see we can still build a track and have fun, just not with the expensive cars!

[clutch-monkey]

i'd actually love to have a crack at those sportbike engined offroad buggy's.. that would be a hoot on a dirt track.

[Matra et Alpine]

No, FD, I wasn't suggesting you do a rally "track" as then you wont get ANY expensive car owner to come near it.
IF you still want the club idea then you have to invest.
Cheap tarmac wont last, cheap tarmac wont give grip in wet ( guess this one depends on weather where you plan to build ) amd cheap tarmac wont survive hot/cold cycles.
The underlying base has to be stable or you face having to tear up sections every 4-5 years and relay them to remove tramlining and ripples :(
Again, I presume you are wanting the prestige car owner who wants a near perfect track :)

Now, point made by others ... IF what you want is a fun place to hoon around in and for a couple of years let your kid learn the limits of handling skills early then a dirt track and bike engined buggies is WAY cheaper and possibility of offering rental ? ( Though the US will have to have changed from a few years back when customers comng over here woudl be amazed at what we legally could do on tracks without fear of litigation :) )

BUT .... cant you do that in public places anyway without the hassle of "building" something ??

[FastDriver]

No, FD, I wasn't suggesting you do a rally "track" as then you wont get ANY expensive car owner to come near it.
IF you still want the club idea then you have to invest.
Cheap tarmac wont last, cheap tarmac wont give grip in wet ( guess this one depends on weather where you plan to build ) amd cheap tarmac wont survive hot/cold cycles.
The underlying base has to be stable or you face having to tear up sections every 4-5 years and relay them to remove tramlining and ripples :(
Again, I presume you are wanting the prestige car owner who wants a near perfect track :)

Now, point made by others ... IF what you want is a fun place to hoon around in and for a couple of years let your kid learn the limits of handling skills early then a dirt track and bike engined buggies is WAY cheaper and possibility of offering rental ? ( Though the US will have to have changed from a few years back when customers comng over here woudl be amazed at what we legally could do on tracks without fear of litigation :) )

BUT .... cant you do that in public places anyway without the hassle of "building" something ??

well yeah the car club will still be for the highend stuff, but my private track, if its made just dirt, will be for fun. just buying cheap cars and racing them until they fall apart! also i have a really nice track laid out that I want to make. it has a 1/4 mile strait and 14 corners. very nice corner variation also, but its only on paper right now.

[I NEED NAWZZZ]

Would a modded TT Supra get in?

[FastDriver]

how many were produced per year on average? ok well you know what, I'd say yes, even though I don't know what year yours is, most years were under 3000 so that I think is rare enough.

[Matra et Alpine]

Intrigued how the club will work if no track :(
Isn't it then the same as dozens that already exist ?

best advice on "paper design" for tracks is build it in virutal world like rFactor or GTR/2/Legends etc etc and try it before building :)

[FastDriver]

Intrigued how the club will work if no track :(
Isn't it then the same as dozens that already exist ?

best advice on "paper design" for tracks is build it in virutal world like rFactor or GTR/2/Legends etc etc and try it before building :)

Yeah I plan on building it in Rfactor, I will probably wait till Rfactor 2 comes out. I can't wait. But even if it is just a dirt track we can buy cheap old cars and rumble around in some fun races! also we will still go to a real track once a month so we can drive our fast cars fast! How its different from other clubs? well i guess the biggest thing is the type of cars that will be in it. Only premium limited production cars. I think it will be a lot of fun! I think I will get a Lotus Exige to drive on the track, that will be fun :)

[Matra et Alpine]

WIll be fun but you wont learn a lot on dirt and cheap old cars. Those days are past now :( You need to very quickly get to something with working suspension and adjustable to learn quickly. Most part of a fast driver in todays sport is the ability to dial a car in. They days of drivers who worked around the failings are along gone - sadly, as I am mainly in that class :( Was discussing this point at Ingliston today with a chap who has rebuilt his Europa race car and the differences in racing then and now.

Re the difference ? Have you done the research on the "type of cars" angle you are spinning ? Certainly over here owners clubs cover the single types and "fast marque" covering your view are already very well catered for. Watch you you're not going to end up competing with a well established set of competitors already there with negotoated contracts with tracks in place.

[FastDriver]

this isn't a racing club, it is mainly to get a large group with a veriety of exotic cars together to go on cruses and go to the track to have fun. My track that I am building is just for fun, not for professional racing. I plan on going to tracks all over the US for our club just to drive. have the dirt track, if i can't get the funding to pave it, is just for us to let loose and have fun. surely they wouldn't want to beat and bang their 100k cars, but beating on some old 80s bmws and auidis would be no worry. they are cheap to buy, so no one will care if there car gets totalled :) When I was younger me and my neighbor use to get old cars for aroun $500 and race them in the field until the wheel fell off :P

[Matra et Alpine]

You have me confused again, FD. Thought teaching your son racing was a key part ?

An owner of a porsche has no interest in "beating" some old BMWs.
That's like suggesting the owner of a michelin star restaurant would want to eat at McDonalds !!!!

I did likewise what you had in the past, just there were 10-12 of us and we learned to repair/fix as well :) BUT there are better ways ( and safer given the possible speed of more modern machinery ! )

I will close on what I suggested at the beginning. Sort out your business idea, your plan and research it properly. Because now you are suggesting a "club" which then hires tracks all over the US for folsk to drive on. WHY on earth would anyone pay a large sum to be a member to join that club when there are so many doing the same task without "membership lump sum". AND if you follow this "new" plan through then you run out of money half way through year one and as you said it woudl then be "free" for members to take car on track you will quickly be taken to court for failing to deliver to contract :(

Only way to sucess is research, research, research.
Only in bad tv movies do "ideas out of the blue" work :)

[FastDriver]

You have me confused again, FD. Thought teaching your son racing was a key part ?

An owner of a porsche has no interest in "beating" some old BMWs.
That's like suggesting the owner of a michelin star restaurant would want to eat at McDonalds !!!!

I did likewise what you had in the past, just there were 10-12 of us and we learned to repair/fix as well :) BUT there are better ways ( and safer given the possible speed of more modern machinery ! )

I will close on what I suggested at the beginning. Sort out your business idea, your plan and research it properly. Because now you are suggesting a "club" which then hires tracks all over the US for folsk to drive on. WHY on earth would anyone pay a large sum to be a member to join that club when there are so many doing the same task without "membership lump sum". AND if you follow this "new" plan through then you run out of money half way through year one and as you said it woudl then be "free" for members to take car on track you will quickly be taken to court for failing to deliver to contract :(

Only way to sucess is research, research, research.
Only in bad tv movies do "ideas out of the blue" work :)

yes, sorry about that, I would like to have a race track for my son to practice on, however if that is not possible, I will just get him on another track, if i have to pay track fees fine, that and the car club are two different things that have nothing to do with each other besides having a track, which is looking quite dismal.

So on to the racing old BMW cars on a dirt rally track! You wouldn't think that was fun? I've been in love with racing since I was about 3 years old, or as far back as i can remember, and that sounds extremely fun to me. because once your car breaks, you don't have to worry about fixing it, its cheaper to just buy a new one :)

Anyway yes, it would be pointless to charge a member fee without a private track. Since my track idea isn't going to work, It will still be free membership, and everyone can pay for their own track time. I thought I addressed this earlier when I mentioned it would cost about $250 a day :)

[clutch-monkey]

Y
An owner of a porsche has no interest in "beating" some old BMWs.


there is a porsche vs bmw track event annually here, but that's about it.. once a year.

ps: the porsches always beat the taxi's :p

[Matra et Alpine]

sorry clutch , by "beating" I was taking FD's idea that it was beat-up cars that they were driving ? Or did I read that idea wrong ???

There is no "fun" in driving a shitty handling car after driving a decent car. It's good for a laugh alongside driving the serious stuff for fun.

You just want the performance and capability of the good car.

Again, you seem to be drifting aimlessly around this arena TO work you HAVE to start thinking like a businessman DO the research, then do the research and THEN do more research


Sorry, missed the $250 a day comment. So where do you think you can hire a decent track where a performance car will go for less than that ? Presuming you want to make some profit.

[FastDriver]

Sorry, missed the $250 a day comment. So where do you think you can hire a decent track where a performance car will go for less than that ? Presuming you want to make some profit.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was saying When there is a track day at a local track, take Watkins glen for instance, the club members will just each pay for themselves. I don't plan on making any sort of profit, just have fun :)

[Matra et Alpine]

OK, even more so ... so WHY would these people join your club for anything extra.
If the track is organising a trackday, what EXTRA tangible benefit are you providing ?
People ( no matter how stupidly rich Porsche owners are ) pay moeny for nothing :)

Sounds like you're now just wanting to be involved in other peoples clubs when they go to tracks. TRYING to see if can guide your thoughts to this business but am convinced you're jsut shooting the breeze and so droppin' out :(

[FastDriver]

Umm, nope. the whole premis of the car club is the same idea. just instead of charging for a private track, i can make it free to join. Still do monthly car cruises, annual rallys and track days when possible. The reason I am making the car club is so we can have a veriety of exotic cars all in one club, not like most clubs that are based on a single car manufacturer...

[Matra et Alpine]

aha, so you have done research to see no multi-marque "Performanc car/driver" clubs in your area then good on you and go make one.

We are overflowing with them here :)
I'm member of about 8-10 now ( and most of those do charge a tiny annual membership which I do determien I get benefit from )

Anyway, there are gazillion examples of what you want to do offer the net so some googling will find you them, their constitutions, club membership details and legal cover etc for you to learn from. Good luck

[FastDriver]

aha, so you have done research to see no multi-marque "Performanc car/driver" clubs in your area then good on you and go make one.

We are overflowing with them here :)
I'm member of about 8-10 now ( and most of those do charge a tiny annual membership which I do determien I get benefit from )

Anyway, there are gazillion examples of what you want to do offer the net so some googling will find you them, their constitutions, club membership details and legal cover etc for you to learn from. Good luck

I did look when i came up with this idea. I googled exotic car clubs and also went on dupont registry, they all seem to be by specific manufacturer or by decade for classic cars but nothing exotic and rare sports car specific... If you know of any in the US I wouldnt mind looking at what they have to offer :)

[johnnynumfiv]

Welcome to a few years ago.
Monticello Motor Club (http://monticellomotorclub.com/)

[FastDriver]

looks like a pretty sweet club. I grew up in NY, but unfortunately it would be hard to drive there year round with snow, and the rainy spring season would be out too, so that leaves about 6 months... but it is a cool looking car club :)

[FastDriver]

here is an example of a libility waiver i mentioned prevously, just incase anyone was interested in what I was talking about.

Monticello Motor Club Terms and Conditions (http://monticellomotorclub.com/general/terms-and-conditions/)

I would love to join this club, but unfortunately I don't plan on living anywhere near NY. The weather up there just sucks...

[johnnynumfiv]

They do winter racing up there with AWD cars too. How can you say the weather sucks? We have track days from may- october there with our customers and its usually great. Usually members have used their days up by the time winter comes around anyways.

Your posts were way to long to read, were you thinking about making your own track for this? MMC probably has over $50 million involved with creating the club/track to where it is now. I think founding members paid $250k-500k. The main permanent structures have yet to be built.

[FastDriver]

Im sorry about the length of it. yeah i was planning on building a track until i found out how much it costs to lay asphalt! but I lived in NY until i was 27 and I just don't like the weather. the summers don't have enough hot days for my liking and the winters are wet and slushy. I think ill get a place more southern :) but yeah it is an awesome facility, i like it!

[Matra et Alpine]

here is an example of a libility waiver i mentioned prevously, just incase anyone was interested in what I was talking about.

Monticello Motor Club Terms and Conditions (http://monticellomotorclub.com/general/terms-and-conditions/)

I would love to join this club, but unfortunately I don't plan on living anywhere near NY. The weather up there just sucks...
That's liability for the use of their website from what I read :)

Different from track for sure ..... and all liabilities are as solid as their last test in court. As I said a liability waiver does NOT protect you. There are cases of things happening that would not be expected to happen at a controlled motorsport event and that then leading to a claim. We have waivers at EVERY event we do and run ...... AND we have full insurance cover for when the waiver wont cover. You can only do motor events on the cheap for as long as no large cost is incurred .... and then you can lose the house if something untoward happens :) Seek legal advice, don't just grab internet stuff as above showed that Monticello link is NOT for on track :)

That is a nice facility and shows every point made so far with your initial idea and if you read http://monticellomotorclub.com/track/safety/ they clearly do the right things to mitigate chances of claims.

Re others in the US I'll leave it to folks there, in Europe if you google ANY race track for driving experience and trackday you will find how lucky we are :)


EDIT: Was researchign that site ( always wnat places to play when I'm in the US ) and noted THIS ....

Unfortunately, Monticello Motor Club no longer rents to cars clubs.
So your "club" idea couldnt' use this facility --- I'll lay any odds because of amateur clubs causing problems over liabilities :)

[FastDriver]

EDIT: Was researchign that site ( always wnat places to play when I'm in the US ) and noted THIS ....

So your "club" idea couldnt' use this facility --- I'll lay any odds because of amateur clubs causing problems over liabilities :)

I was actually wanting to join their car club... i emailed about pricing for their club packages since i couldn't find the prices on the website.

[culver]

FastDriver,
Why not just participate in regular track days? I mean private tracks are a nice idea but they aren't cheap. Since you are talking 10 years out it would probably be best to observe how others do and try to understand why they succeed or fail. I would also make sure you have good knowledge of the market. Don't base your views on incorrect info (like the other thread ;) )

[FastDriver]

FastDriver,
Why not just participate in regular track days? I mean private tracks are a nice idea but they aren't cheap. Since you are talking 10 years out it would probably be best to observe how others do and try to understand why they succeed or fail. I would also make sure you have good knowledge of the market. Don't base your views on incorrect info (like the other thread ;) )

look at the post above yours :)

[culver]

look at the post above yours :)

That's hardly extensive research. Again, that seems to match your research into airbags. You need to find out from the participants of these clubs what they like. You need to have demographic info. Heck, you should even have an idea what types of tracks would be fun vs not that fun to drive time and time again.

[Matra et Alpine]

^^ :whathesaid: :)

That club are a long term membership.
You'd be much better enjoying many different tracks than throwing all the eggs in one basket. You can work out ballpark figures from the one price they DO give of "founding member" which looked for a $125K membership and $10k per annum !

You get UNLIMITED laps per year for on the Nordschliefe for $1200 !!!!!

[FastDriver]

That's hardly extensive research. Again, that seems to match your research into airbags. You need to find out from the participants of these clubs what they like. You need to have demographic info. Heck, you should even have an idea what types of tracks would be fun vs not that fun to drive time and time again.

Are you serious. I said I would join that club, not make a new car club and join it with my club. just join it on my own... Do you understand the words that are comming out of my mouth!?


^^ :whathesaid: :)

That club are a long term membership.
You'd be much better enjoying many different tracks than throwing all the eggs in one basket. You can work out ballpark figures from the one price they DO give of "founding member" which looked for a $125K membership and $10k per annum !

You get UNLIMITED laps per year for on the Nordschliefe for $1200 !!!!!

Yes that sounds like something I would enjoy, however again like i said, I wouldn't live anywhere near it. :) hopefully they make more like it around the US, Its a good price for what you get.

[Matra et Alpine]

^^ I guess being too subtle .... their "silver" level only gives you 15 trackdays.
You could afford to visit the Nordschleife.
For "what you get" it's over the top ... unless you own a stable of a dozen performance cars :)
Remember for a "normal" sports/performance car it wont do many trackdays without major works needed in service and replacement parts :( I'll keep banging on you need to do lots more real research of yourself and the marketplace before you risk doing anything silly :)

[FastDriver]

where is Nordshliefe?

[Matra et Alpine]

Didn't help googling with my typo :) ( now fixed )

The North Loop 8.2km "track" at Nurburgring.

RSR will RENT you a 997 GT3 cup car for the day for $2500 for you to play with --- fully insured :)
Friend will do ex-works Suzuki swifts for 1/10th that and capable of beating "ordinary" Porsches :)

[culver]

FastDriver,
Please keep the attitude down. As I said, you seem to have very sketchy research. You showed that you are quick to claim knowledge yet unwilling to admit error in your which car was first thread.

Here you again seem to be quick to select what you think is a correct course of action then get flippant with those who dare to question your approach.

Perhaps we could ask an alternative question. How much track driving experience do you have and in what types of cars?

[FastDriver]

FastDriver,
Please keep the attitude down. As I said, you seem to have very sketchy research. You showed that you are quick to claim knowledge yet unwilling to admit error in your which car was first thread.

Here you again seem to be quick to select what you think is a correct course of action then get flippant with those who dare to question your approach.

Perhaps we could ask an alternative question. How much track driving experience do you have and in what types of cars?

Ive only driven on small kart tracks, but this car club was suggested by someone else, not me. And I never said I was going to join, I only said I would like to... It is no where near where I would want to live so it wouldn't work for me. I don't know why you think I am making rash decisions, I haven't even commited to anything yet.

[FastDriver]

Didn't help googling with my typo :) ( now fixed )

The North Loop 8.2km "track" at Nurburgring.

RSR will RENT you a 997 GT3 cup car for the day for $2500 for you to play with --- fully insured :)
Friend will do ex-works Suzuki swifts for 1/10th that and capable of beating "ordinary" Porsches :)

well again, in america that doesn't help me. I am still looking online for a good track and car club like the one suggested in NY.

[Matra et Alpine]

KNow you're now sensibly researching it ... but cheap flights and accomodation always available. Dont be too parochial about getting the "best" :)
I'm trying to sort out an Aussie "tour" for a few years now to take in Targa Tasmania and Mount Panorama .... and a few others from suggestions given to me be our antipodean friends here :)

[FastDriver]

my wife really likes Florida, and I wouldn't entirely object to living in the Daytona Beach area, which is close by to Daytona International speedway, that could be a fun track considering they have the Rolex 24 hour race there... but i still want to find an exotic non specfic car club that allows multiple make and modles, I am looking still... If I don't find one in the general area, I may just make one and see what the track times are for Daytona...

[clutch-monkey]

it's much easier, and probably more important for the sport, to start up a budget race series imo.

[culver]

There are many budget racing series. The hard part is making a good one. I've written on this topic in the past.

[FastDriver]

ive looked all night, all the exotic car clubs im finding are just places that want me to rent their cars... it is really annoying. there has to be some out there...

[Matra et Alpine]

what are you googling ?
-- Track Days - Poughkeepsie Sports Car Club, Inc. (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psccny.com%2Ftrack&ei=acO_TZDXNMjD8QO8nsW4BQ&usg=AFQjCNF3xkcy0JL8QfwDejrNT4sSSm-lGQ)

downside is the main term we use "trackday" seems to be used in the US for BIKES and so can hook you up lots of clubs who run trackdays if you swap to 2 wheels ... all courtesy of google.

( Look on this as a good thing, it will build research skills you'll want when you harden up your ideas for tyour own for the future :) )

Realise it's difficult if you're finding sites blocked by "the man" :) But keep trying !"!!

[LeonOfTheDead]

Don't you have a bit too much spare time, being in Iraq I mean?

[henk4]

Don't you have a bit too much spare time, being in Iraq I mean?

it is peaceful down there right now. Don't you remember GWB annouced that about six weeks after the invasion started?

[johnnynumfiv]

my wife really likes Florida, and I wouldn't entirely object to living in the Daytona Beach area, which is close by to Daytona International speedway, that could be a fun track considering they have the Rolex 24 hour race there... but i still want to find an exotic non specfic car club that allows multiple make and modles, I am looking still... If I don't find one in the general area, I may just make one and see what the track times are for Daytona...

You also have Sebring and West Palm Beach International Raceway in Florida.

[LeonOfTheDead]

it is peaceful down there right now. Don't you remember GWB annouced that about six weeks after the invasion started?

Absolutely.
I've recently seen a movie on that (not based on true facts that I know of, but surely inspired by).
Green Zone.

[thebrochureman]

Don't you have a bit too much spare time, being in Iraq I mean?

Must have, i mean 132 post in 4 days, that's alot.

[FastDriver]

Must have, i mean 132 post in 4 days, that's alot.

I am currently on night shift. I only have work if a bird comes in for a service, or if a pilot breaks something on the engine... So usually once or twice a week i have actual real work to do. It is pretty lonely on nights so i just chat on the interweb ;)

[FastDriver]

it is peaceful down there right now. Don't you remember GWB annouced that about six weeks after the invasion started?

yeah it is peaceful, until you get woken up by a moarter! i fricken hate those things!! They scare the crap out of me, the other day one hit about a football field away from where i was in the hanger, and It shook everything and I almost fell out of my seat! So yeah, it has its moments...

[thebrochureman]

yeah it is peaceful, until you get woken up by a moarter! i fricken hate those things!! They scare the crap out of me, the other day one hit about a football field away from where i was in the hanger, and It shook everything and I almost fell out of my seat! So yeah, it has its moments...

So what do you do for a job? i ges your in the army by the sound of things, and where are you based. :D

[ScionDriver]

There is a private track club somewhere outside of Chicago, I remember reading about it in Car and Driver. Can't remember the name of it, if they even printed it. The track might be in Michigan or Indiana but it's a couple hours drive from Chicago. The guy who built it owns a couple bars in Wrigleyville.

[johnnynumfiv]

There is a private track club somewhere outside of Chicago, I remember reading about it in Car and Driver. Can't remember the name of it, if they even printed it. The track might be in Michigan or Indiana but it's a couple hours drive from Chicago. The guy who built it owns a couple bars in Wrigleyville.

http://www.autobahncc.com/

[FastDriver]

So what do you do for a job? i ges your in the army by the sound of things, and where are you based. :D

Im stationed out of Alaska. I am an engine repairer/maintainer. I am in training right now to get my pilots license and when i get out of the army I am going to a flight school called APTflightschool to be an airline pilot. Probably will be flying CRJ 700s to start.

[Matra et Alpine]

http://www.autobahncc.com/^ Nice .. and gives FD some info to realise the market :)

Initiation Fee $35,000
Annual Dues $4,000
as pointed out withotu annual fees you cant run a business !!


and boy am I pissed, thinking of allt he time I spent Napierville/Joliet with HP and no chances for somethign like that :(

[FastDriver]

yeah, i doubt ill build the track now... ill just keep it a free car club.

[thebrochureman]

Im stationed out of Alaska. I am an engine repairer/maintainer. I am in training right now to get my pilots license and when i get out of the army I am going to a flight school called APTflightschool to be an airline pilot. Probably will be flying CRJ 700s to start.

Cool, sounds like a intreasting job. I hope it all goes to well.:D

[voodoo9020]

i'd actually love to have a crack at those sportbike engined offroad buggy's.. that would be a hoot on a dirt track.

[ScionDriver]

http://www.autobahncc.com/

Yes, thank you. There is that but specifically I was remembering GingerMan Raceway mentioned in this Car & Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/10q2/2010_aston_martin_rapide_vs._2010_porsche_panamera _turbo-comparison_tests) comparison test.

http://www.gingermanraceway.com/

[FastDriver]

Welcome to a few years ago.
Monticello Motor Club (http://monticellomotorclub.com/)

Finally got an email back from a guy that runs this place. He said I could come down and check it out, he would ride right seat and give me a tour of the track and I could drive on it for the whole day for only $2500. So If you are in the area, i suggest you check it out. The track looks amazing and I'm sure the facilities are as well! :)

If I am ever in the NY area again (I have family there and in MA) then I will probably try to take a day to check it out. Just for something to do :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Man why I love Britain :)
We can do that on tracks used in F1 and F3, GT and saloon race series for 1/10th that !!
Enjoy and remember and discuss discount for club arranged days to research your business plan and not just hoon around for a day and ruin tyres/brakes and possibly ego :)

[clutch-monkey]

for only $2500.

jesus i'd enter targa tasmania if i was spending that much! :eek:

[Matra et Alpine]

:whathesaid:
Sadly it costs more than that to get the car over and mate now decides he DOESNT want to do it, so plans are shelved :(

[culver]

I think the more typical track day costs are around $350 in the US. We have some great tracks as well even if F1 doesn't drive on them... well given the current F1 tracks that may not be a bad thing. Mid-Ohio is a great track and totally unsuited for F1 use. It was at least used for CART and IMSA GTP back in the day.

[johnnynumfiv]

Finally got an email back from a guy that runs this place. He said I could come down and check it out, he would ride right seat and give me a tour of the track and I could drive on it for the whole day for only $2500. So If you are in the area, i suggest you check it out. The track looks amazing and I'm sure the facilities are as well! :)

If I am ever in the NY area again (I have family there and in MA) then I will probably try to take a day to check it out. Just for something to do :)

We bring customers there several times a year, thats enough for me.

[FastDriver]

We bring customers there several times a year, thats enough for me.

awesome deal :)