Bin Laden dead

[crisis]

Firstly I am glad he is dead if only in revenge for all the lives he has been responsible for.

Secondly I understand Al Qeda will prevail but it is an important psychological blow for them. This is all about mind games after all.
I also remain cynical about the fact he was in Pakistan and how much of a issue the Yanks are making of it being a joint operation and making sure there is no public questioning of why/how he was in Pakistan.

One could jump to all sorts of conspiratorial conclusions so lets. The death of Bin Laden in a time where other Middle Eastern Muslim countries were stable may have resulted in various forms of reactions.

Timing wise it couldn’t have happened at a better time with countries like Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc all having their own internal issues.
I wonder just how long he has been in the sights and the finger on the trigger waiting only for the most opportune moment.

[f6fhellcat13]

Obama's speech was incredibly well done, though I am sort of uncomfortable with grave dancing.

I saw this on the massive facebook status posting that has ensued and thought it apt.
“I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.” —Mark Twain

I wish the best for the families of the victims of 9/11, and hope that this brings comfort, or at least closure, to them.

[ScionDriver]

It's a big deal, no doubt but it raises a lot of issues too.

Americans are already questioning Pakistan's role in Osama being there, throughout our whole "war on terror" thing Pakistan has kind of flip-flopped on whether or not it is a true ally and towed the line between friend or foe. There is no doubt though that we probably couldn't have done it without them.

It is wonderful to see though, for at least one night, Americans getting out and showing their pride and peacefully honoring the vets and countless others who have given their lives in this and the people who died to bring it to this.

This is by no means a victory though but I hope it draws down the bloodshed and that the wars end soon enough.

[VOGUE_MAN]

I am certainly glad he's been stopped but I suppose this is a situation where the world might have finished another chapter, but there's still the rest of the book to read.

At this point I find myself more concerned with retaliation that might occur over the coming days or weeks etc than I am satisfied that bin Laden's reign has come to an end.

[henk4]

In Pakistan and in the vicinity of the capital. The Pakistan Government has something to explain.

[thebrochureman]

I'm glad i just hope it doesn't cause back lash.

[Wouter Melissen]

At this point I find myself more concerned with retaliation that might occur over the coming days or weeks etc than I am satisfied that bin Laden's reign has come to an end.

No worries, Al Quaida, along with Donald Trump apparently, have already denied it was Bin Laden. I also want to see the death certificate first!

[henk4]

No worries, Al Quaida, along with Donald Trump apparently, have already denied it was Bin Laden. I also want to see the death certificate first!

likely to be issued on Hawaii.

[Matra et Alpine]

All it has done for extremists is turn a living martyr into a dead one.

Dead martyrs are more powerful :(

Esp after the clips shown on news this morning of as it was best described by f6 as the "grave dancing". THAT is handing publicity footage to the recruiters for extremists the world over :( But with the hysteria the media has whipped for the past 10 years it was going to be unavoidable.

Also, "one man" did not plan, train and enact 9/11 and the many other terrorist acts and those still on-going. Worried that soem think this means and "end" to the need to find peaceful solutions and to respect all who have lost their lives.

[pimento]

He was a powerful figurehead, but by now that would really have been it. There will be many others there running things, but now that they are nameless it makes it harder to sell hunting them down to the public. Still, if there's a lessening of aggression on the West's part, there may be a corresponding lessening from theirs too.. eventually.

[aiasib]

I guess this means the US will now be pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan?

[pimento]

Nope.. in fact more drone strikes on targets in Pakistan have been ordered.

[NSXType-R]

I too wonder what his death brings. Not to be cynical, but how much of the daily Al Quaida things does he run anyway? He might not have been able to contribute, given his health and all. There will most definitely be a successor anyway.

But it's good we got him, it's just the "what now?" factor.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Give it 15 minutes and a new, scary boogie man will be created for the American public to be frightened of. Al Qaeda is just too impersonal an enemy to be afraid of.

He's dead, probably well deserved, but he was quite far removed from the day to day actions of his created organisation for a little while now, and they seem to be doing pretty poorly anyway.

Their recent non-presence during the Revolutions sweeping the middle east prove one thing: if the people are empowered and have their voice heard, extremists have very little footing on which to express their doctrines. They only had a footing because of discontent with the existing political arrangements within countries - something which the people took back on their own terms.

This doesn't solve anything, really. But it does Obama's re-election chances no harm at all.

EDIT:


In Pakistan and in the vicinity of the capital. The Pakistan Government has something to explain.

They knew the whole time. Pakistan seems to be an unstable, unpredictable beast of quite dangerous proportions.

[RacingManiac]

No worries, Al Quaida, along with Donald Trump apparently, have already denied it was Bin Laden. I also want to see the death certificate first!

A long form version, no less...

[Commodore GS/E]

I too wonder what his death brings. Not to be cynical, but how much of the daily Al Quaida things does he run anyway? He might not have been able to contribute, given his health and all. There will most definitely be a successor anyway.

But it's good we got him, it's just the "what now?" factor.

I think it's only becoming more complicated now. Al Quaida may have lost their "boss", but cutting the snake's head doesn't work here, obviously. Therrorism isn't a snake, it's a hydra. And the worst part is that they have no idea who their new leader is.

[Chernaudi]

I would have to agree that it's good riddance that Bin Laden is finally gone.

But I pose the same question here as I would about hypothetical scinerios involving the deaths of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin. If they were taken out, who could've taken their place. There were plenty of people in Hitler's cadre that could've filled for him, and the same with Stalin.

Only thing we can hope for here is just like with Stalin--that it would take a while to find a true successor. However in this case, one may already be there for Bin Laden, and has probably been secretly running the show for a while now.

Osama Bin Laden may've been the head puppet master and the main money man, but you've gotta believe that there's someone who'd be willing to fill in his place, if not already doing so. Just like with Hitler and Stalin, someone would've eventually have taken their places if they were snuffed out, and only with the Nazis being on their last legs kept that from happening with Hitler.

[Matra et Alpine]

Chernaudi, the problem in your comparisons is that Fascism and Stalinism were hiererchical organisations with a controlling hand from their leaders in all things.

Terrorist organisations dont work like that.
Bin Laden was only a figurehead ( the equivalent of the British Queen ). nothing will actually be any different than before OTHER than that history shows us that dead martyrs create more people willing to kill for the "cause" :(

We would have been better served with a trial .. even if it WOULD be embarrassing as the support given Bin Laden when he was a nobody that created the myth of him as a great leader would have been forced into the light :(

Many of us cannot understand how many national leaders do not look to recent terrorist groups and the failings in removing leadership ( ie Provisional IRA, internment and H-block ) and necessitates stepping back and seeking peace no matter HOW initally repulsive that is. But the media-whipped hysteria on the "allied" side of this leaves us little hope.

[LeonOfTheDead]

The news of his death came as something I wasn't surprised or interested into.

Al-Queda, Bin Laden and others at a certain point were just names in my head.
Never though it was all a conspiracy to move forward with other wars and an excuse to colonized/invade other countries as some are saying. That's definitely not my point of view.

My idea of them is that, along the line of what Matra is probably trying to say (or that I'm trying to understand :)), at a certain point we as a media influenced culture began thinking they were the present evil and what was wrong with the world. The idea that once we would have take them both out everything would have been find popped into the minds of many I know.

It probably helped them materializing a fear for a force that could strike at any moment with any face, and at the same time helped the various government had someone specific to blame. Terrorism is such an impersonal enemy you know people could grow bored with it. Which is stupid, but I suppose also a hard fact. We need someone to blame and we need revenge.

First thing that actually popped into my mind is how people could talk about a terrorist organization as if it was an ordinary army or nation. Not saying you can't fight or defeat them, just underlining how we managed to believe they were like Nazis 60 years ago, and probably we were also pretending that once this new war or whatever you may want to call it, everything would have been ok.

Sort of like thinking no one was a Nazi in Germany after WWII was over, or a Fascist in Italy for that matters, nothing against our friends up north :).

The fact I can still find on a daily basis people of all ages talking like if we really were a dominant race over people from Africa, Eastern Europe and so on just underlines how taking out a leader of something like a terrorist organization is sort of irrelevant, I'm afraid.

Make no mistake I'm glad something have moved forward with this event, I hope.

Then again much more than an army as with the Nazis and Fascists, terrorism is made out of ordinary people. People like you and me, with an ordinary life and a not so special training in many cases.

Which promptly makes me realize how an actual army would have strike back after such an event with a proper war action or something. When you're dealing with "martyrs", fanatics and manipulated kids everything is possible. Which is why we can't live in the fairy tale that we can really get them out of the picture overnight.

I'm pretty sure there are quite some big heads which already knew whatever we may come up with in this forum in just about any intelligence agency all around the world. So I don't expect a situation "we" can't handle coming next as an act of vengeance. What I could expect is people indeed grave dancing without realizing they aren't doing much better than those people blindingly and pointlessly calling the names of "martyrs" without realizing what just really happened, until some of them became one themselves.

That's not what's going to help us in getting over.

As I said, I'm glad things made a step forward, yes, I'd have preferred something more "civil" and not even like with Hussein.
Hangin up Mussolini didn't make Italy a better place, even if he didn't deserve a nice treatment either.

Hope it makes sense.

[clutch-monkey]

whelp thank god the war on terrorism is over, i guess we can all go home now

.....

i don't really think it's as big a deal as americans seem to think so judging by their celebrations - which is asking for retaliation imo.. it's a bit over the top and nobody likes smug people.
also i agree on the martyr issue, could end up being a middle eastern obi wan kenobi

[pimento]

It's only a big deal symbolically, if anything the war efforts have to tighten up and probably ramp up a bit for a while. It is rather gauche and goading to be throwing parties and whatnot over it, but it was inevitable really.

[RacingManiac]

All I know is this could make for a good movie......

[pimento]

Team America 2: Electric Boogaloo?

[clutch-monkey]

it will be in the next call of duty game..

[Roentgen]

I guess every coin has 2 sides...

[FastDriver]

I think people are celebrating too early. It is great they caught him, but that just gives them more of a reason to attack us... I saw the president speak live on the news. it was 6:30 am in Iraq, 11:30 am Eastern standard time...

[crisis]

It's only a big deal symbolically. The whole deal is symbolic. All the terrorist attacks serve no purpose other than to work in the minds of the public, force governments to invoke laws that cause disruption to how we go about our lives and try to convince us that we must live in fear of the unknown. It mobilises the simple minded against Islam and as such gives justification to the likewise simple minded Muslims that the west hates them. Just as Al Qaeda said.

I believe it does strike a blow at al Qaeda and sends a message to terrorist leaders. It shows in a petulant and belligerent way that if you mess with the USA they will hunt you down and kill you. That said it will not stop ongoing conflict. Religion is there to make sure of that.

I am a little perplexed as to why there was no news of this leaked given it was supposed to have happened last week. If so why didn’t Al Qaeda communicate this with anyone? I guess as with all of this the truth plays little part in the story we are told.

[pimento]

Religion is there to make sure of that.

Lets narrow that down to "Religious fundamentalism is there to make sure of that." Al Qaeda are just as ruthless and harmful to Muslims as they are to anyone else.

[kingofthering]

Betcha this will make it into the next Call of Duty or Battlefield game.

[Drones]

With the same success could announce that they killed Harry Potter :cool:

Bin Laden - a mythical character, to which it is convenient to translate the public's attention at the right time.
Economic, social, judiciary, media, culture ... are in full decline, President - marionette, continuing a military capture territories of other countries, every day civilians are dying, but declared that without trial or investigation of a murdered man and the people rejoicing - USA! USA!
You know, the U.S. is more like the Roman Empire at the time of the fall.

[henk4]

You know, the U.S. is more like the Roman Empire at the time of the fall.

and now we have the Foxes and CNNs to break that news....

[zuzulo56]

[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;966051]Obama's speech was incredibly well done, though I am sort of uncomfortable with grave dancing.

"Grave Dancing"?...as the Sheriff said to John Wayne, in "THE SHOOTIST": "After you're buried, what I'm going to do on your grave won't pass for flowers!" HAR-de-har-HAR! Ben-Laden, Burn in Hell (BIN)! (P.S.- I think it would proper and grande indeed, for everyone near a coast-line to venture there...and pee therein. Maybe at night, holding a candle.)

[Matra et Alpine]

oh dear :(

[FastDriver]

“I have a love of this country. Two thousand years ago, we would all have wanted to live in Rome, and now New York City is Rome. This is where the action is"

-John Lennon

[Matra et Alpine]

yeah didn't work out well for John did it :(

[LeonOfTheDead]

"Grave Dancing"?...as the Sheriff said to John Wayne, in "THE SHOOTIST": "After you're buried, what I'm going to do on your grave won't pass for flowers!" HAR-de-har-HAR! Ben-Laden, Burn in Hell (BIN)! (P.S.- I think it would proper and grande indeed, for everyone near a coast-line to venture there...and pee therein. Maybe at night, holding a candle.)

Good luck with that.

Muslim sand ninjas will be there to cut away your little precious...

[Commodore GS/E]

The now-proven fact that he had no weapons when he was shot makes this all kinda worse.
Also, I have no idea what consequences this action will have. It was definitely right to kill him, but it wasn't exactly what you'd call "legal".

[crisis]

oh dear :(

Indeed.

[crisis]

The now-proven fact that he had no weapons when he was shot makes this all kinda worse.
Also, I have no idea what consequences this action will have. It was definitely right to kill him, but it wasn't exactly what you'd call "legal".

What is “legal” but another version of what someone else says is right. The world is better without him even if his death wont end the fight. As far as it inciting further terrorist attacks I pretty much assume these guys are and have been planning whatever they can get away with. This may make them more angry but delivering the attacks has also been made harder anyway. I am sure some will get through but they have anyway.

I can never forget the last lines in the film The Kingdom. A story about a terrorist bombing in Saudi Arabia and the US’s military revenge strike.
At the end two CIA guys are discussing a conversation between one of them, Fleury, and the partner of one of the Americans killed in the attack and what he whispered to her upon the commencement of the mission. It switches between this conversation and the conversation between the grandson of one of the terrorists who was in the building the Americans raided to kill the terrorists, (one being the kids grandfather) and his surviving Aunt. It is brilliant, precise and sad.


Adam Leavitt: Fleury. Tell me what you whispered to Janet, in the briefing, to get her to stop crying about Fran, you know, before all this, before we even got airborne. What'd you say to her?
Aunt: Tell me, what did your grandfather whisper in your ear before he died?
Adam Leavitt: You remember?
Ronald Fleury: I told her we were gonna kill 'em all.
15-Year-Old Grandson: Don't fear them, my child. We are going to kill them all.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Yeah, the final dialog in that movie pretty much summarize it.

The movie itself was quite good as well.

Agreed on the fact that whether or not they will try to strike back, they surely would have been planning something new anyway.

[Commodore GS/E]

Massively appropriate quote.

[Dino Scuderia]

In Pakistan and in the vicinity of the capital. The Pakistan Government has something to explain.

Given that ISI helped Al Qaeda and the Taliban to fight American troops in 2001-2002... I'd say Pakistan had little consideration coming. More than that ISI undoubtedly knew where this clown was, and had the expertise to have seized him and delivered him up.

[Dino Scuderia]

Give it 15 minutes and a new, scary boogie man will be created for the American public to be frightened of.

Before 9/11 I thought OBL was a joke, that he was just a made up 'boogie man' used for a label to put on the various attacks to make the Intel operations appear to know something about what they were doing.

When it was learned that OBL was responsible for planning the 9/11 attacks I felt stupid for doubting, but at the same time I felt our various agencies had been vindicated.

This American doesn't want a 'boogie man', this American doesn't need a 'boogie man'. I don't think this American is alone in this realization nor do I think I was alone in my thoughts of OBL prior to 9/11.

9/11 changed America in many ways that most of us don't like, we don't like the paranoia, we don't like the encroachment on our freedoms.

I'm hoping we can deal with future threats and 'boogie men' in a more practical manner and I believe we will provided we keep hardcore religious rightwingers out of the WH. At the same time a lot of us will not blow off the idea that next OBL is already out there planning....so when we hear a name connected to any attack we will take it more seriously.

[Matra et Alpine]

Sadlu, Dino, the lesson to learn about terrorism is it's the guys who dont have a name and have not been heard of before to fear.

The only answer to terrorism is seeking peace.
Terror only breeds terror and it will then manifest in ways not considered before.

Took Britain 40 years of Northern Ireland to realise that ... and funnily enough the removal of a right wing war-mongerer !!

[henk4]

the supposed successor Al Zawahiri has been tortured for three years in the dungeons of Mr. Mubarrak...

[derekthetree]

it will be in the next call of duty game..

This = true.

[zuzulo56]

No worries, Al Quaida, along with Donald Trump apparently, have already denied it was Bin Laden. I also want to see the death certificate first!

The very self-same sentiment many on your continent had after Hitler's demise...and, probably, of the ancient Greeks after Alex The Great left the stage. Doubt, indeed, can become a powerful human frailty...that we needs guard against, what?
HERE'S THE FINE LADS WHO OFFED "BINNIE"!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7SrvzIG32k

[Matra et Alpine]

Now times 2 :(

oh dear

[clutch-monkey]

it's been so long since america had such an unambigously evil enemy (hai hitler!) that i can sort of understand the celebrations, i mean it's the first time they've stuck their dicks in someone else's affairs on the world stage and been in the right since ww2 really. it would not have suprised me if they'd captured him alive so they could stockpile him for future use, since outright villains seem to be in short supply when they need them

[taz_rocks_miami]

While it´s true that his death won´t stop Al Qaeda and that now the world runs the risk of revenge attacks. I have to admit I was very very happy to hear he got a cap in his arse (ok in his chest and head).

He is responsible for thousands of inocent deaths in many countries and he got what was comming to him. Osama, may you burn in hell!!

[Matra et Alpine]

Well, sadly , taz if we attribute all deaths to the head of a nation/organisation we have many other "world leaders" who are more guilty :(

Besides, let's remember the many 10s of thousands of Russian soldiers maimed and killed by his efforts whilst armed and supported by us :(

Would have preferred non-lethal take-down and subsequent trial in International Court.
If only all nations had signed to the charter for it it may have worked !!!

[Matra et Alpine]

WOrrying fall out of the Libya affair and US support for rebels seems to be ......


Mr Obama wants ­Megrahi to be tried in the States for putting a bomb on the New York-bound jet that blew up over Lockerbie, ­Scotland, in 1988, a crime for which he was convicted by a Scottish court

What is going on ?
He was tried in international court and imprisoned.
You cant try him twice .... or is legal justice only permitted for one nation ?

Sounds like Obama is maybe getting as bad a "hawk" as the past right wing US presidents ? Or is he doing this to strenghen his campaign for re-election and garner support from those who believe it IS the god-given right to determine right/wrong ???

(blue touch paper lit .... now retires :))

[taz_rocks_miami]

Well, sadly , taz if we attribute all deaths to the head of a nation/organisation we have many other "world leaders" who are more guilty :(

Besides, let's remember the many 10s of thousands of Russian soldiers maimed and killed by his efforts whilst armed and supported by us :(

I see your point Peter, but while fighting the Soviets in Afganistan, Osama fought the soldiers that invaded. Funny how he never attacked the Soviet Union on their own ground.

There was no reason for attacking civilian non combatants in the World Trade Center and less for using comercial aircraft filled with more civilian non combatants as his weapons :mad: Not to mention all the other civilians he has killed in other parts of the world.


Would have preferred non-lethal take-down and subsequent trial in International Court.
If only all nations had signed to the charter for it it may have worked !!!

It would have been nice to his arse arrested and tried...but I can´t help but smile knowing he´s dead. True, revenge doesn´t solve anything and it doesn´t bring back all those poor folks, but it does feel good in this case.

[zuzulo56]

it's been so long since america... i mean it's the first time they've stuck their dicks in someone else's affairs on the world stage and been in the right since ww2 really.

Your brave countrymen ("Diggers") who fought so courageously along side us in Korea and 'Nam (ETC.) are undoubtedly overjoyed to be set straight, by you, re. the need/efficacy for those (& other) conflicts. I join them also in pious gratefulness.

[clutch-monkey]

hook, line, sinker..
i guess the war on terrorism is over! USA! USA!
we can finally leave the middle east now, yeah?

http://devour.com/video/usa-usa-usa/

maybe next month they can find nuclear weapons in iraq, and america can pretend to be a grown up again.

[FastDriver]

While it´s true that his death won´t stop Al Qaeda and that now the world runs the risk of revenge attacks. I have to admit I was very very happy to hear he got a cap in his arse (ok in his chest and head).

He is responsible for thousands of inocent deaths in many countries and he got what was comming to him. Osama, may you burn in hell!!

Already happening, but with that said, If you're a praying man keep us in your prayers, because we need all the help we can get. And I would like to be able to come home and see my wife and son again. Thanks in advance for your prayers, for me, and the rest of the deployed soldiers. :)

[csl177]

I'm in the uncomfortable with grave dancing camp. Bin Laden was venal, doing no favors for Islam with his vision of jihad bringing a modern caliphate and religious supremacy. Exposing that lunacy at the Hague would have been more powerful than this revenge killing. Saddam should have been brought to trial as well, not summarily executed... but we couldn't have him giving the kind of testimony that keeps beneficiaries of Western military control of resources awake at night. Matra's right: had either been tried publicly some very inconvenient truths about US foreign policy decisions would have been exposed, and it ain't pretty, or reflect the "values" some Americans claim as exceptional. Some of our own "leaders" should have been brought to the Hague as well. :(

OBL hated democracy as much as he hated the oligarchs in his own family, the reason his movement never grew as much as Western media wanted us to believe. The recent upwelling by the people of the Middle East largely reject Al Qaida... they know how empty Bin Laden's world view was. They want their culture and freedom of thought, a voice in their governance... along with modern conveniences and priviledge that until only recently was available only to their elite. Egypt, Libya, Bahrain and the rest of the region are in flux and know the rest of the world is watching. They seek to throw the yoke of despots and puppets paid for by the USA, our allies and influence... and yet, as I watched on Al Jazeera after the announcement of the raid, they give praise to the USA for ridding them of a walking stigma.

Anyone who has studied the demographic and cultural shifts in the Middle East of the past three decades understands their sentiment. Fear of reprisal from an increasingly alienated small group of religious fundamentalists shouldn't dissuade the rest of the world from supporting a Middle East united in freedom.

[crisis]

Your brave countrymen ("Diggers") who fought so courageously along side us in Korea and 'Nam (ETC.) are undoubtedly overjoyed to be set straight, by you, re. the need/efficacy for those (& other) conflicts. I join them also in pious gratefulness.
I am sure they are equally undoubtedly overjoyed to have you speak on all their behalf as to how they really felt about those particular conflicts.

[Matra et Alpine]

I see your point Peter, but while fighting the Soviets in Afganistan, Osama fought the soldiers that invaded. Funny how he never attacked the Soviet Union on their own ground.

There was no reason for attacking civilian non combatants in the World Trade Center and less for using comercial aircraft filled with more civilian non combatants as his weapons :mad: Not to mention all the other civilians he has killed in other parts of the world.
But that's the definition of a terrorist ( or freedom fighter !)
Let's remember how many "civilians" died and continue to die in actions supported by our nations :( Not fall in to the trap that ours are wars and theirs are terrorist attacks. A rocket falling in any nation in and around Israel is wrong, yet one side is suported and not taken to task on UN resolutions and the other is condemned ??

With Afghan 0 the Russian army "invaded" and fought an open battle.
Western political factions dont do it so openly and thus I can see WHY the likes of the Palestinian and Lebanese in the past felt the ONLY way is to attack the aggressor. Just our aggresions were financial, political, multinational control and UN actions to subdue their advancement.

Let's not forget that in the fight for American independance not every battle and dead English soldier was done in open field :(

NOW, NOT condoning, but attempting to grasp the things that leads these folsk to the insanity they end up with. ( Again, maybe some of use who have faced open terrorism on our streets for 40+ years are more adept at realising it's not black/white, them/use, right/wrong and the only way out is by peace as nobody can "win" )

So just as students rioted on American university campuses in the 60s ... sometimes people think violence against those who can be reached is "legititimate"

NOW, before Glenn Beck reads this and does a batshit-crazy on me ....... I NEVER condone violence, terrorism nor acts unlawful. BUT, can see how some MAY chose that route with a warped sense of what is going on. Just as GWB/Blair did over WMDs.


It would have been nice to his arse arrested and tried...but I can´t help but smile knowing he´s dead. True, revenge doesn´t solve anything and it doesn´t bring back all those poor folks, but it does feel good in this case.
Well I never smile about anyones death.
I will mourn the bad things all do in whatever god/nation/politic they claim. BUT, rather see them incarcerated and isolated till they die of natural causes.

Reminded of a quote regarding WW2 Nuremburg trials ..."When Goering collected himself enough to talk, he said that he had naturally expected the death penalty, and was glad that he had not gotten a life sentence, because those who are sentenced to life imprisonment never become martyrs."

So making them dead martyrs gives them strength we shodul never allow.

Making them suffer a life away from all, isolated, alone a much more effective lesson for all. ( and YES, differeing rules need written for it to avoid the problem when Megrahi was handed to Scottish prison where our laws REQUIRE the process to have compassion for dying people. Nobody will make that oversight again ! )

[Matra et Alpine]

solid words ..............
I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

EDIT: Still do like the sentiment as a measure of mans progress !!!!

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Before 9/11 I thought OBL was a joke, that he was just a made up 'boogie man' used for a label to put on the various attacks to make the Intel operations appear to know something about what they were doing.

When it was learned that OBL was responsible for planning the 9/11 attacks I felt stupid for doubting, but at the same time I felt our various agencies had been vindicated.

This American doesn't want a 'boogie man', this American doesn't need a 'boogie man'. I don't think this American is alone in this realization nor do I think I was alone in my thoughts of OBL prior to 9/11.

9/11 changed America in many ways that most of us don't like, we don't like the paranoia, we don't like the encroachment on our freedoms.

I'm hoping we can deal with future threats and 'boogie men' in a more practical manner and I believe we will provided we keep hardcore religious rightwingers out of the WH. At the same time a lot of us will not blow off the idea that next OBL is already out there planning....so when we hear a name connected to any attack we will take it more seriously.

I perhaps should be clearer in my response.

The American psyche may not need a 'boogie man', in this case someone who's mere name conjurs up images of unimaginable hatred and, more importantly to the purposes of my argument, patriotism.

Who needs boogie men? the powerful and the political. By having an enemy with which you can spew rhetoric and bluster at, you, if only for a moment, take the heat off yourself and point it towards something that can collectively unite the peoples in a common base emotion - fear. And finally, when your grizzly work is done, people congratulate you, celebrate their own small victories, and the cycle continues.

Forgive me for being somewhat disingenuous (I have had the fortune in my time to meet some survivors of the Pentagon attack) but the celebratory scenes of drunken students and 'patriotic' individuals dancing in the streets celebrating the death of one man is eerily reminiscent of those scenes you'd see in some unfriendly countries following...oh, say September 11?

Bin Laden was, by all accounts, not a very nice man. But he certainly wasn't this Goliath the Media, Political pundits and indeed some politicians believe him to be. Terrorist cells are more like Octopi - and they've cut off a tentacle that hasn't been effectively used in a long time.

I hate to bear bad news (perhaps I'm trolled, if so, good work) but that quote isn't a MLK quote, Matra.

I'll quote Margaret Thatcher here (perhaps not the best, but the most appropriate):


We must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend

The best revenge is a life lived well.

[pimento]

solid words ..............

Not all of that quote is MLK actually (http://gizmodo.com/#!5798029/those-mlk-and-mark-twain-quotes-youre-spreading-on-facebook-and-twitter-are-fake). Not to lessen its message, just an FYI.

IB4R, that Maggie-ism applies to more than just the terrorist and the hijacker really.. to any antagonist that seeks to make your a life a misery that can be applied, and should be far more often than it is.

[zuzulo56]

I am sure they are equally undoubtedly overjoyed to have you speak on all their behalf as to how they really felt about those particular conflicts.
(Ah goody, two Waltzing-Matilda blokes ganging up on the Yank...well, let's 'ave a right go of it, what?)
I WAS THERE , YOUNGSTER (SE ASIA)...I SAW...SPOKE...AND TASTED THE FEELING & EMOTIONS OF THOSE ABOUT ME. That's one of the personal consequences of war...too bloody much info. Your two-man club, or is it an association?, should stumble 'oer to a Veterans Assemblage, and ask those fine gents 'bout their thoughts on the matter at hand.. Why, maybe they'll even allow ya to wax their rides...as a sign of proper respect. I would!:D

[Matra et Alpine]

zuzo, time YOU showed some respect and attitude ?

You assume because some aren't ra-ra-ra that they dont have experience direct or indirect ?

Maybe YOU need to get to talk to some veterans of terrorism who have seen it through to the end and talk to some jocks who served in NI during the worst ?? Just drop me a PM.

HATE sanctimonious ground stompers who forget it is not a "war" just coz a leader says so :(

[taz_rocks_miami]

But that's the definition of a terrorist ( or freedom fighter !)
Let's remember how many "civilians" died and continue to die in actions supported by our nations :( Not fall in to the trap that ours are wars and theirs are terrorist attacks. A rocket falling in any nation in and around Israel is wrong, yet one side is suported and not taken to task on UN resolutions and the other is condemned ??

With Afghan 0 the Russian army "invaded" and fought an open battle.
Western political factions dont do it so openly and thus I can see WHY the likes of the Palestinian and Lebanese in the past felt the ONLY way is to attack the aggressor. Just our aggresions were financial, political, multinational control and UN actions to subdue their advancement.

Let's not forget that in the fight for American independance not every battle and dead English soldier was done in open field :(

NOW, NOT condoning, but attempting to grasp the things that leads these folsk to the insanity they end up with. ( Again, maybe some of use who have faced open terrorism on our streets for 40+ years are more adept at realising it's not black/white, them/use, right/wrong and the only way out is by peace as nobody can "win" )

So just as students rioted on American university campuses in the 60s ... sometimes people think violence against those who can be reached is "legititimate"

NOW, before Glenn Beck reads this and does a batshit-crazy on me ....... I NEVER condone violence, terrorism nor acts unlawful. BUT, can see how some MAY chose that route with a warped sense of what is going on. Just as GWB/Blair did over WMDs.

I know you´re not defending what Bin Laden did in any way and I can understand your reasoning. All I´m saying is that personaly, I AM glad Bin Laden got wasted. I had a friend working in WTC tower 1. He didn´t even like to talk politics (domestic or foriegn) and was respecfull of everyone´s beliefes. I hate to think the horror he went though before he died. Damn it he should still be here :mad:



Well I never smile about anyones death.
I will mourn the bad things all do in whatever god/nation/politic they claim. BUT, rather see them incarcerated and isolated till they die of natural causes.

Reminded of a quote regarding WW2 Nuremburg trials ..."When Goering collected himself enough to talk, he said that he had naturally expected the death penalty, and was glad that he had not gotten a life sentence, because those who are sentenced to life imprisonment never become martyrs."

So making them dead martyrs gives them strength we shodul never allow.

Making them suffer a life away from all, isolated, alone a much more effective lesson for all. ( and YES, differeing rules need written for it to avoid the problem when Megrahi was handed to Scottish prison where our laws REQUIRE the process to have compassion for dying people. Nobody will make that oversight again ! )

Bin Laden will be considered a martir I know. But even if he caught alive, he would have been considered so IMO since his followers are so fanatical. Again, these are just my own personal feelings on the subject and by no means do I pretend to say that what happened was the ideal outcome. But I have no problem with it.

[Matra et Alpine]

no probs taz, we share the feelings of those lost and hurt in terrorist acts :(

I do believe that rotting in jail would be better as those who were imprisoned at Nuremburg I think demonstrated.

I think "no problem" for me is difficult as having now turned up to be unarmed and to have by the sound of it hidden behind his wife I'm not sure all efforts were taken to take him alive. But hey, depends on the role as seen of a special forces on the spot and in the heat I woudlnt' hold off if he didnt' stick his hands up in surrendor on third call to do so. But I guess we'll never know ?

Made worse by some of the nasty images of American's cheering and riding around in quads with flags firing guns ! Irony never was a strength :)

THe other problem a death causes is the now rolling stone of "he's not really dead" claims :( Live and in prison you can SHOW the punishment for all to see.

[zuzulo56]

zuzo, time YOU showed some respect and attitude ?

You assume because some aren't ra-ra-ra that they dont have experience direct or indirect.

HATE sanctimonious ground stompers who forget it is not a "war" just coz a leader says so :(

And so, the timidity of Europe...that B-4 ya blokes will see a threat and take action, you'd rather stand and be eviscerated...and that, me friend, is what I hate. I've seen too many die, thusly.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Already happening, but with that said, If you're a praying man keep us in your prayers, because we need all the help we can get. And I would like to be able to come home and see my wife and son again. Thanks in advance for your prayers, for me, and the rest of the deployed soldiers. :)

I didn´t know one of our members was deployed. Of course you got got my prayers so that you all com home safe :)

[clutch-monkey]

(Ah goody, two Waltzing-Matilda blokes ganging up on the Yank...well, let's 'ave a right go of it, what?)
I WAS THERE , YOUNGSTER (SE ASIA)...I SAW...SPOKE...AND TASTED THE FEELING & EMOTIONS OF THOSE ABOUT ME. That's one of the personal consequences of war...too bloody much info. Your two-man club, or is it an association?, should stumble 'oer to a Veterans Assemblage, and ask those fine gents 'bout their thoughts on the matter at hand.. Why, maybe they'll even allow ya to wax their rides...as a sign of proper respect. I would!:D

full respect for vets,
but if not for the stupid americans/american government they would never have had to be vets in the first place
RAH RAH RAH USA! USA!

next month; americans masturbate to the death of gaddafi
grave dancing is just sickening.. nothing good will come of this! :(

[Matra et Alpine]

And so, the timidity of Europe...that B-4 ya blokes will see a threat and take action, you'd rather stand and be eviscerated...and that, me friend, is what I hate. I've seen too many die, thusly.
Suggest you learn a bit that will connect fact with your brain before posting what you dont clearly have a clue about.
In fact with comments like that I seriously doubt you are deployed !!!!

[clutch-monkey]

maybe the coalition didn't pull out of iraq due to lack of evidence and public opinion

clearly they pulled out because working with the US armed forces is insufferable :D

i kid, i kid..

[Matra et Alpine]

why ? seriously I know of a few of the older wiser guys on deployment who did NOT want to go on patrol with US air cover :(

[crisis]

(Ah goody, two Waltzing-Matilda blokes ganging up on the Yank...well, let's 'ave a right go of it, what?)
Yank bashing? Like when anyone dares to have an opinion that may possibly question the inviolability of the USA?


I WAS THERE , YOUNGSTER
Cheers, I’m 48 but I appreciate being called young.

(SE ASIA)...I SAW...SPOKE...AND TASTED THE FEELING & EMOTIONS OF THOSE ABOUT ME. That's one of the personal consequences of war...
"OF THOSE ABOUT" you. So you understand then what I meant by how grateful all our country men would be for you to speak on all their behalves.


Your two-man club, or is it an association?, should stumble 'oer to a Veterans Assemblage, and ask those fine gents 'bout their thoughts on the matter at hand.. Why, maybe they'll even allow ya to wax their rides...as a sign of proper respect. I would!:D You wear your sanctimony like a medal mate. I respect and honour each and every one who endured it so don’t even try to suggest this waltzing matilda in any way holds any malice toward those people. ;)

[csl177]

My wife (who works for a major investment firm) and I lost two friends and business associates in WTC 2. Neither we nor mutual friends and family can take any pleasure from the killing of Bin Laden. For such a conservative group you'd expect the opposite, but most agree bringing him to trial would have had more lasting impact. They didn't want blood, they wanted justice.

My younger brother spent 20 years in the Navy and afterwards was a ships pilot for a company that services oil rigs (until Katrina). He took one of the Halliburton/KBR tax-free deals as a contractor operating heavy equipment in Iraq. He was VERY rah-rah and besides the sweet pay, was pumped about being near "the shit" again. We had a drink together when he returned stateside (I only see him every few years) when our father died. Pat brought up dad's inability to deal with his memories as a pilot in WW2, once sobbing uncontrollably as we watched a documentary about the fire-bombing of Dresden. It was a roundabout way for my brother to express his epiphany regarding war. He had nearly become a typical lifer because it's secure, and military culture appealed to his sense of masculinity. But after what he witnessed in 2006-7 he confessed that we had no business in Iraq, and declared he would never again support violence as a solution, as the innocent pay the greatest price. After being a huge cheerleader of "wasting ragheads" he began questioning the entire charade that took the US there, and is an advocate for veteran and multi-faith causes. He's raising cattle now.

[crisis]

csl177 that is very well put. Neither the hawks nor the doves can or should assume to speak on behalf of how all servicemen feel. They are after all individuals and will view it all through their own eyes, in relation to their own experiences, beliefs and values. And they nor any of us should have to tow any governments line when for the most part those lines serve duplicitous and conflicting interests.

[Kitdy]

Trolling for lulz.

[Matra et Alpine]

ALong with crisis I applaud your words and sentiment csl.

It was a thing of WW2 where many supressed their feelings only to come out later.
Only in his last few years of life as he struggled did we have heart-to-hearts when he openly admitted what he saw and endured as a Hurricane pilot. I cried as at the age of 81 he could look at his signing out parade photo at fighter training and name every person and to the man give explicit details of how they died in action with him. Only 7 from 80 survived a 2 year period. Puts all the ra-ra BS from todays kids into context.

NI is too soon for many still and I think many tales will be told to families in the years to come on that and in 40 years time on our current bravado-filled youngsters :(

That is the sad legacy wars leave with us.

[clutch-monkey]

csl177 that is very well put. Neither the hawks nor the doves can or should assume to speak on behalf of how all servicemen feel. They are after all individuals and will view it all through their own eyes, in relation to their own experiences, beliefs and values. And they nor any of us should have to tow any governments line when for the most part those lines serve duplicitous and conflicting interests.

seconded!

[pimento]

Forthed. Matra, csl, crisis.. yes. From the very few things my mum's dad has said about WW2, I'm thoroughly in your camp here. I have no ill will to any service men and women out there, but I believe those in power that can really make a difference let us down in these situations.

War doesn't determine who wins, it determines those that lose.

[Commodore GS/E]

csl177 that is very well put. Neither the hawks nor the doves can or should assume to speak on behalf of how all servicemen feel. They are after all individuals and will view it all through their own eyes, in relation to their own experiences, beliefs and values. And they nor any of us should have to tow any governments line when for the most part those lines serve duplicitous and conflicting interests.

Exactly.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Well Spoken, csl177. Very well spoken.