Can a car be too secure for normal driving and have therefore no fun.

[kiwitt]

My aging 1996 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2448) seems really secure and like it is on rails when driven at normal speeds of between 30-60 mph (50-100km/h). It is loaded with safety features like 4WD, AYC, ESC, ABS, etc. I have a slightly lowered suspension (40mm) and 18" lightweight alloys shod with Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric.

It feels really safe to drive, but I am thinking it may possibly be too safe to be fun and it has does not have the feeling of driving at the edge at these more normal speeds. Don't get me wrong, when I take it out on the open road and cruise through corners at speed most people crawl through, it's a great feeling, as I always tell my wife, holding her seat next to me.

In the next few years, I will probably have to let this car go as maintenance and fuel costs may skyrocket, however, if I am lucky I may still have it when it is 20 years old (only 5 years away only). So my thoughts are starting to wonder to a replacement vehicle and I am thinking about a more smaller / nimble car and am unsure what may have the fun factor.

I am looking at the Suzuki Swift Sport, Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta, Mini Cooper, Citroen DS3, Alfa Romeo Mito, Honda Civic, etc. Small cars with lots of character and I suspect lot's of fun. Also briefly considered was an MX-5 Hard-top. The newer mid-range hatch-backs, like the Focus, Lancer, Mazda 3, Golf, etc, have grown to be the same size and weight of my car with less power in most cases. So I am thinking if I am going to have to have a less power, I want less weight to go with it as well.

I'm not into all these active safety features, like air-bags, crumple zones, etc., as I prefer accident avoidance as opposed to accident survival, given that more accidents are avoided then actually occur, I assume.

In addition, I will not be buying brand-new so the current market models are what I will be considering when I buy, as they will then be significantly cheaper on the second-hand market. So opinions are sought on lightweight nimble small-cars that may be fun to drive as well.

[FastDriver]

Ford Focus ST, Lotus Elise, and the civic, are all fun cars I can think of that won't break the bank. As far as safety is concerned. Why would you want to be less safe? That just doesn't make any sense...

[clutch-monkey]

may possibly be too safe to be fun and it has does not have the feeling of driving at the edge at these more normal speeds.

original mini will solve that, besides being ridiculusly cheap to run and buy parts for.
failing that x2 on MX5!

[henk4]

I am puzzled by the thread title. NORMAL driving automatically means SECURE driving, so I am not totally sure what you are after.

[Matra et Alpine]

AS he alluded to FD, it is preferable to have a vehicle that you can AVOID an accident in than one that as it happens will plough on regardless.

Not a zero-sum choice though as you need some safety for the time some idiot runs a read linght on you ( though police training even demosntrates how THAT is avoidable ).
SO i know exactly where his needs are sitting with respect to having "fun" in a "safe enough" way.
Also "safe" and "safety" are different.

WHat are your other needs kiwitt ?
Needs to be a saloon/hatchback ?
What about something as extreme as a caterham or cheaper copy ??
That's about as far to the fun and less safety add ons as you get ... but less "practical" !

MX-5 ( chose the right variant ) is an obvious one for a 2 seater with more practicality and safety features and still able to have the fun.

Also all the modern cars have ways of turning off the "safety" features that get in the way of "fun" and wrt the RX-8 is a wolf and a sheep :) Find the secret button sequence and turn off ALL of the help and you have a car that is competitive on track. Turn it back on and it's "safe" for that early morning half asleep toodle in the rain :) Most of the modern hatches have similar. So if investigating/testing it's worth remembering you can remove the "nanny" when you want to -- but you dont get to remove the weight :( THough I've investigated removing the aircon on the '8 :)

Do you need the 4WD ? It's an easy way to drop a LOT of weight and thus need less power but THEN needs you to be a "better driver" as 4WD hides a lot of sins -- as does all the DSC, smart diffs etc. OPens up a lot more car choices and ones cheaper to service !

Others have listed some of the good cars, but maybe still on the expensive side.

Hard to advise specifics, but hope these comments guide the considerations :)

EDIT: As henk4 asks, how much "normal" is imprtant versus the not-quote-so-normal pushing through the twisties enjoying te need to "drive" rather than "guide" :) ???

[FastDriver]

I think he is looking for a car that handles well, but has no safety features so if he crashes he will be killed... hence the no crumble zone or airbags. maybe he wants a peel p50... "The crumple zone is your knees" - J Clarkson

[Matra et Alpine]

Nah FD, guilty of the classic logic problem :)
They are not mutually exclusive , it's venn diagram with LARGE overlap !!
A bit like Clarkson's ego and the sun :)

[FastDriver]

Nah FD, guilty of the classic logic problem :)
They are not mutually exclusive , it's venn diagram with LARGE overlap !!
A bit like Clarkson's ego and the sun :)

but its a BMW! haha!!!

[Matra et Alpine]

:confused: ... what's a BMW ?

[kiwitt]

A car that has appeared just now on my radar is the VVTi-L version of this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Toyota-Celica-GT.jpg/800px-Toyota-Celica-GT.jpg

140kw (190hp) and about 1100kg. The basic version has only 140 hp.

[FastDriver]

:confused: ... what's a BMW ?

It was a joke. its like a mini bmw isetta! haha...

[clutch-monkey]

A car that has appeared just now on my radar is the VVTi-L version of this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Toyota-Celica-GT.jpg/800px-Toyota-Celica-GT.jpg

140kw (190hp) and about 1100kg. The basic version has only 140 hp.

imho you'd be better off with a DC2 integra type R. or any integra type R!
i stand by my first choice of original mini going by the first statement i quoted haha

[pimento]

original mini will solve that, besides being ridiculusly cheap to run and buy parts for.
failing that x2 on MX5!

Seconded.

[LeonOfTheDead]

In all honesty, I fail to see how most "normal" cars can't help you getting out of some dangerous situations, even more considering what Joe A. is capable of when it comes to emergency maneuvers.

Unless you buy something an A-klasse mk1 or anything else willing to rest on its top rather than on its wheels.

Most cars have just about the same braking distances, it's rather a matter of how many times you can deploy brakes' max power.

Handling is definitely different from car to car, but I'd say that in most cases the car can handle out of an emergency maneuver given the driver is paying enough attention and is trained to. In all honestly, a sportier car could result in a more nervous behave leading to more troubles if the maneuver isn't done "perfectly".

All of this doesn't mean you an have something that is also "fun" to drive.

To that regards, I think cars from the last decade were a bit more entertaining because of the generally lower weight and much less auxiliaries to tone down the engine's response, along with some engine's solutions further diluting it's behave for the sake of fuel consumption and the likes.
Also, in some cases the lack of ABS/ASR and even more ESP demanded a better inherent design, with designers not allowed to trust the electronics to save the day. (see A-klasse once again)

[Commodore GS/E]

Just asking... was the Opel Speedster/ Vauxhall VX220 sold as a Holden in Australia? If it was, I'd recommend that.

[thebrochureman]

Old mini's are great fun, Cooper S or a stage 3 1275 mini clubman, great fun. Second hand mrk1 or 2Lotus Elise, you can buy a decent mrk1 Elise for 10k, they may be expencive to run though.

[Matra et Alpine]

In all honesty, I fail to see how most "normal" cars can't help you getting out of some dangerous situations,

The thinking goes this way ...

Modern cars are required to pass safety tests and to be "safe" in difficult maneouvres.
So the car is designed to be less aggressive turn-in.
To not have significant weight shift possible.
and worst of all to UNDERSTEER by design.

This makes it on average safer for everyone.
It's like ABS ... a great safety device ... BUT somethign that a good driver can stop a car in a shorter distance :)

SO as long as braking is what is needed, then it is "as safe".
BUT, if a fast turn away from the problem is what's needed then it wont do it.
NOW, the flip side is a car built to be able to have aggresive turn-in, to hav "controllable" weigh transfer and to be "neutral" to allow for inital throttle induced underseer or brake induced oversteer and subsequent brake/throttle controled slip ... now THAT is a car that can get out of / avoid trouble better. Equally tho' it is now a car that can get IN to trouble if the driver drops their guard.

Short wheelbase GroupB rally cars epitomised this approach - and it's inherent difficulties :)

Street cars are nowhere near the extreme of those, but some are there when needed.

Certainly for me that's how I see the difficulty in modern car designs and "fun" :) Closest example to heart is the stock RX8 versus the ProDrive version. They both have the same weight balance and power/drive. The ProDrive however sacrifices comfort and a little stability on rough surfaces to deliver a much sharper turn in and if you turn off the smarts you can point the car mid corner with throttle and left foot braking. NOT in the style of drifters who want lots of wheelspin, but in throttle induced steer which is a compeltely different capabiltiy and skill in the driver.

[LeonOfTheDead]

We do agree, but I still think most modern cars aren't as butter-made to drive you directly into an obstacle as soon as you try to recover the situation.
There are of course some exceptions.

At the same time most car can be improved and tuned according to our style/taste. They are obviously designed to be generally safe in the hand of a generally capable (actually, less than that) driver.

With that in mind, as you race your Mazda frequently, you're not entitled to talk about Joe A.'s capabilities :D

Even this understeering by default thing is a bit overvalued. Yes it's true an everyday car will be more prone to under than oversteer. Truth is in most cases it's the wrong maneuver by the driver to trigger the understeer, and that would be the same in a sportier car, just with the tail playing the main character.

ABS is a tricky field, if properly designed on a road car it's likely it will have an edge over the driver for sensibility (also considering the nature of modern cars) and accuracy. Of course race cars are bit of a different field AND racing a road car doesn't count (you're out again :D).

I think ESP is a much better example, something that yes can save your ass but at the same time makes your car a deriving brick waiting for the next obstacle. A decently advised driver could do just about the same or even better.

On a final note, I don't think any situation when you require a "better" car to save the day is happening within the road limits (not only speed) ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

he he he. ESP is a prime example as it's main "control" is brakes and cutting the engine power. So if it gets "squirrelly" then the only option left is to go slower and pray that is the safest option.
These "safer" cars limit the options. A driver can chose to brake, slew, slow down or speed up.
THe smarts only do one thing :(

Good point on the "requirements" as daily you'd not want to have to drive so much on edge you could do better than an ESP/ABS/DSC car. BUT, once you are then on a road with more "scope" and you want to explore the last 10% then it comes to be a barrier.
As already said, thankfully most of the cars can turn it all off and THEN it matters who well the underlying car is for the driver to use. eg 300hp at the front wheels WITHOUT the torque smarts is plain dangerous :)

[pimento]

I'm not sure the delicious version of the RX-8 as described is available in kiwiland, but point [should be] well taken. It can be hard to know which version of what you might want is in reallty that which will deliver the goods.

Remember, 'safe' nowadays isn't what those who know what they are doing can do, it's what those who are panicking might do. Hence ABS that can slow a car yet steer around the drongo that ran the red light. In many cases, it really is something that benefits the greater good. I agree that more technical stuff/physics should be taught to new drivers, but there are many pervasive safety aides that are very much benificial to the greater populace that should made available where applicable.

Not sure why I took that tangent, but I'm sure that empty bottle of wine has a good idea why. Damn evaporation...

[Matra et Alpine]

yeah pimento I agree on the reason the industry and officialdom does it BUT i do think that then we jsut end up with worse drivers.
Personally I'd put a 6 inch spike pointing up from the steering wheel for the first year of everyone driving so they concentrate :) and realise there ARE consequence to driving around in a dream :)

More electronics are fine if they continue to provide "settings" buttons so we can turn the nanny off and let the monster lose :) Especially on track !!

[LeonOfTheDead]

I'm not sure the delicious version of the RX-8 as described is available in kiwiland, but point [should be] well taken. It can be hard to know which version of what you might want is in reallty that which will deliver the goods.

Remember, 'safe' nowadays isn't what those who know what they are doing can do, it's what those who are panicking might do. Hence ABS that can slow a car yet steer around the drongo that ran the red light. In many cases, it really is something that benefits the greater good. I agree that more technical stuff/physics should be taught to new drivers, but there are many pervasive safety aides that are very much benificial to the greater populace that should made available where applicable.

Not sure why I took that tangent, but I'm sure that empty bottle of wine has a good idea why. Damn evaporation...

HIck! I mean, "amen" to that :D

[LeonOfTheDead]

So the end of the line is "make driving schools and not license schools mandatory", or something.

Count me in.

[pimento]

yeah pimento I agree on the reason the industry and officialdom does it BUT i do think that then we jsut end up with worse drivers.
Personally I'd put a 6 inch spike pointing up from the steering wheel for the first year of everyone driving so they concentrate :) and realise there ARE consequence to driving around in a dream :)

More electronics are fine if they continue to provide "settings" buttons so we can turn the nanny off and let the monster lose :) Especially on track !!

Mos def - my uncle's idea that all new drivers should have a year on bikes comes to mind. Proper defensive riding/driving techniques should be taught to all, but I reckon it's easier to drive the point home to a rider than a driver.

[Ferrer]

Thirded on the MX-5. I'd also consider a mk 1 new Mini, preferably in Cooper S guise.

So the end of the line is "make driving schools and not license schools mandatory", or something.

Count me in.
You hit the nail in the head. Forget about more (or less) electronic nannies. The point is learning to drive, not to just obey a set of rules.

[FastDriver]

i would get a lotus elise if I were you. If I were me I would spend a little bit more money and get the Lotus Exige S.

Personally I cannot stand to drive a FWD car. so these are both good choces for a fun car with good handling and still get good gas mileage :)

[Ferrer]

Elises or Exiges aren't cheap, practical or economical to run...

[kiwitt]

I had considered the Integra as well ... I give this some thought ... and that is another car like the Celica ... which in 5 years time maybe very "rough". So todays cars are the only real option. So a 3-4 year-old version of today's cars. The RX-8 is a no goer as being a Rotary, it is not light on the fuel. The MX-5 is definitely returning to my view ... but ... "hairdresser" comments and all that ... plus being low it will be harder to get in and out of as I get older (be 50+ when I get it) ... and am not a real fan of convertibles, and the Hardtop may feel cramped inside.

I know in the end I will be forced to make a compromise, but I do not want extra weight. This is why the lowly Mazda 2 got my interest, as it was designed lighter than the previous version and probably more power.

Styling needs to be sharp / edgy, but it is secondary to what I feel inside and in control of the car. I had a previous generation Lancer for a few months while my car was being recalled and it was quite a bit of fun to have the front wheels spinning when you planted the gas. It never happens in my car.

It had around 120kw and was light weight. The new one weighs almost as much as my car and has only slightly more. Future fuel consumption is very much on my mind now.

[Ferrer]

The MX-5 is definitely returning to my view ... but ... "hairdresser" comments and all that ... plus being low it will be harder to get in and out of as I get older (be 50+ when I get it) ... and am not a real fan of convertibles, and the Hardtop may feel cramped inside.
Forget the hairdresser comments and enjoy the rear drive chasis and proper sportscar handling.

The RC felt fine inside for me, but then again I'm just 1.73m tall.

[FastDriver]

Elises or Exiges aren't cheap, practical or economical to run...

You are right, they aren't cheap, but they are an affordable sports car. Affordability is subject to your income. I am not sure of what kind of price range he is looking at, but you can pick up a used elise for around $25,000 - $30,000.

He said nothing about practicality. He said quote "I'm not into all these active safety features, like air-bags, crumple zones, etc., as I prefer accident avoidance as opposed to accident survival, given that more accidents are avoided then actually occur, I assume." which to me fits the elise perfectly. it has a very small crumple zone. and also very small amount of devices to distract you from driving, which will conform to his accident avoidence bit. It also handles very well, so there is another accident avoidence plus!

I think I make a good argument. he wants good handling and not many safety features. And wants to avoid wrecks. :)

[Ferrer]

But if he is thinking about Swift Sports and 2 1.5s, the Elise is very removed from those in terms of running conditions. Furthermore, how easy will it be to service a Lotus in New Zealand?

An MX-5 manages to be a sportscar in a more or less similar vein to the Lotus, without all the day to day incovenients.

[kiwitt]

An Elise costs about NZ$40-60,000. Well outside the NZ$15,000-25,000, I am looking at spending. Also servicing may also be more difficult here in NZ.

[FastDriver]

An Elise costs about NZ$40-60,000. Well outside the NZ$15,000-25,000, I am looking at spending. Also servicing may also be more difficult here in NZ.

I was going by USD you can get a used one for between $25,000 and $30,000 american dollars. I just looked on ebay.com

[Matra et Alpine]

Not sure of US, but over here be VERY wary of Elise on eBay :)
A thrashed Elise is not a pleasant drive :(

[clutch-monkey]

yeah pimento I agree on the reason the industry and officialdom does it BUT i do think that then we jsut end up with worse drivers.
Personally I'd put a 6 inch spike pointing up from the steering wheel for the first year of everyone driving so they concentrate :) and realise there ARE consequence to driving around in a dream :)

haha what that was my idea for dealing with new license holders :p great minds etc..

I had considered the Integra as well ... I give this some thought ... and that is another car like the Celica ... which in 5 years time maybe very "rough". So todays cars are the only real option.
there will always be pristine examples of older cars around if you take your time searching. a friend picked up an immaculate hardtop first gen mx5, complete with supercharger.
failing that, i do think older cars should be an option if you want something you can push harder at lower speeds.
given their classic status you'll be able to find something in pristine condition - a datsun of some type, Mk1 GTI, etc etc

hairdresser's car my ass! :D
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8650/44860486826ac309c52fo.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/44860486826ac309c52fo.png/)

[crisis]

Just asking... was the Opel Speedster/ Vauxhall VX220 sold as a Holden in Australia? If it was, I'd recommend that.

I agree, but I would. :D
I have never had fun in anything front wheel drive. Just sayin.

[clutch-monkey]

VX220 is rwd and lotus based iirc?
as for FWD integra typeR, mk1 GTI and mini coopers are a barrel of laughs when you hit the twisty's

[csl177]

I have never had fun in anything front wheel drive. Just sayin.

You need to drive an original Mini, dude. Or a Moke. ;)

[henk4]

I agree, but I would. :D
I have never had fun in anything front wheel drive. Just sayin.

In an FWD there is so much more space to have real fun.....and as Russell mentioned, try the handbrake move in an original Mini...

[Matra et Alpine]

yah it's shame that the likes of the Clio Cup cars, Saxo and Corsa/Nova tuned/UK setup versions dont get to your shores :)
But Suzuki Swift Gti ?
All "fun" cars and can keep up with the best ... again light weight makes up and if you remove the extra stuff even more fun. Because of class structure I compete in the same as all those cars in the RX8 and on the sprint tracks I think they're having more fun than me :)

[Ferrer]

I'd add the Mk1 new Mini to the fun front drivers.

[crisis]

to each there own. I find having the tail wanting to break away one of the best feelings. I guess in a way it is the antethisis of what most people are looking forward in a car. In complete contrast to rail like handling. But to me its fun.

[clutch-monkey]

yah it's shame that the likes of the Clio Cup cars, Saxo and Corsa/Nova tuned/UK setup versions dont get to your shores :)
But Suzuki Swift Gti ?
clio cup 182's have quite a following here, more so than the megane sport i think!
i only just saw a swift gti with 240hp at the wheels :eek: those and the starlet gt's run rings around more powerful cars on tight circuits

[Ferrer]

to each there own. I find having the tail wanting to break away one of the best feelings. I guess in a way it is the antethisis of what most people are looking forward in a car. In complete contrast to rail like handling. But to me its fun.
The Cooper S Mk 1 felt far more tail happy than the 118d, despite being front wheel drive.

[FastDriver]

Not sure of US, but over here be VERY wary of Elise on eBay :)
A thrashed Elise is not a pleasant drive :(

I would suggest looking at it in person before buying it of course. You can look on multiple other online car buying sites as well. I like Dupont Registery personally. Good for finding cars and houses and boats...

here is one for about $35,000:
http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/Search/DRauSearchDetails.aspx?itemid=911252

[Matra et Alpine]

YIKES. That's expensive .... for once the USA loses out on car prices :)
Or maybe that was just a bad choice !!
$25K will get you similar over here.

[FastDriver]

YIKES. That's expensive .... for once the USA loses out on car prices :)
Or maybe that was just a bad choice !!
$25K will get you similar over here.

Nope, that is a cheap one. most are closer to 40,000.

It's an import. Try buying an imported US car there and see how much more it costs ;P

[Matra et Alpine]

they're not that bad :)
it just unusual for you guys to get stung so much .... often your "import" works out cheaper than ours by a long shot even when the car is coming from factiroy in UK/Europe !! Doubly so for Japenese cars and dont get me started on Jag prices :)

[clutch-monkey]

^ there is actually a thread on rennlist at the moment, a lot of classic 911's aremaking their way back to europe - they are cheap enough and in a lot better condition in the southern states, that it has become a viable import business for some european dealers..

[Matra et Alpine]

That's farily common too. It's because they get scarce over here as our winter weather and road treatments means you cant hold back the rust :(
Back int he 90s it was common to bring an E-type etc back and convert it to RHD as "cheaper" than buying one "original"..... then the bottom fell out of that market ( left a friend with about £40K rebuild on one and the car unable to be sold for more than £25k )

But I was keeping away from the "rarity" angle which is as bad a price-fixing as houses were 5 years ago :(

[pimento]

YIKES. That's expensive .... for once the USA loses out on car prices :)
Or maybe that was just a bad choice !!
$25K will get you similar over here.

Over here they start at about $40k (http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/results.aspx?N=1216+1246+1247+1252+1282+4294965279 +4294965277&keywords=&tsrc=allcarhome&Nne=15). The only way you'll get lower is a mk1 that's done a bunch of kms.

[Matra et Alpine]

YIKES ! Was about to add "but that's Aus dollars" ... and thought I'd best check exchange rates.
Didnt' realise how much it had "improved" these last 10 years :(

Thinking on it this isn't the best car to compare as there are so few in other countries and you can barely turn a corner in a city in UK without having to step over one. I wonder how many you can squeeze in one shipping container for resale over there :)

[pimento]

Do the same with Porsches and you'll likely have the same reaction, or TVRs, or.. just about anything really. Stuff that's 70k quid, or US$100k is still likely A$200-300k. We have some pretty sizable luxury car taxes, but more than that.. why lower the price just because you can? There's profit to be had!

On, and in my neighbourhood.. there's probably more Lotuses than NuMinis. Though that's likely an exception to the rule!

[Matra et Alpine]

Used to be standard practice in our division for managers sent on 2 year placements in Oz and NZ. Get the company to ship your car out and back. Just buy a Porsche before you leave UK and buy a GT-R before you come back. Everybody new it happened and seen as a "perk" :)