Driving in Europe

[NSXType-R]

Not sure if previous threads have discussed this, but I never knew that driving in most of Europe was so discouraged until I read this article. It's like they're out to get you.

I always knew about expensive gas and congestion charges, in London for example, but it's somewhat ridiculous. Are there lots of toll roads in Europe as well?

Europe Stifles Drivers in Favor of Mass Transit and Walking - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/science/earth/27traffic.html?pagewanted=1&ref=science)

I understand the issue about space and all, but some people need the use of cars to get around, at least in the US. I guess public transport is so good in Europe that driving can be avoided.

Once we kick out our crazy mayor Bloomberg, I'm hoping the stupid bicycle lanes and pedestrian malls get removed. Most of the city streets have one lane only, with a lane dedicated to bikes and a lane in the middle dedicated to parking. Especially in narrow areas like Little Italy and Chinatown, traffic can really back up when the entire street is blocked because someone is making a turn or trying to park.

The main issue is that the transportation department head here has the full backing of our crazy mayor.

I'm wondering if that's the same issue in Europe and I wonder how the traffic is in Australia.

[henk4]

well, obviously you still have to gear yourself up to the real needs of the world...is it of primary importance that every tiny place in each city can be reached by a car? and if so does that mean that every car has the right to occupy the minute space that is available there?

We need PEOPLE in a city, not necessarily cars.

[coolieman1220]

What about all the toll we pay on our bridges here?

[Matra et Alpine]

Need to accept that people in New York are more important than cars and mayeb time to copy Europe IS right ?

30 years ago when on business New York was the only city we were always todl NEVER to hire a car as nowhere to park it and takes too long stuck in traffic. So the car congestion isnt' "new" and was only getting worse to the point it affected the people.

THe article isnt' balanced in reviewing the options or the real benefits.
Before bus lanes my car journey in to Edinburgh was only about 5 minutes less than it is now. BUT the busses and taxis manage it 10 minutes less and so I now have a choice I never had before. Parking is priced high, so I can make the personal choice to decide if I have to take the car ( and carry higher costs ) or take public transport ( and pollute less ). I now have the choice :) Once in the city centre it's MUCH more pleasant to walk between stores or venues with less pollution and trygin to doge traffic.

Love my car, but not so that cars take control of my freedom to enjoy my towns/cities.

[Matra et Alpine]

What about all the toll we pay on our bridges here?
That woudl seem fair, no ?
I mean shodul someone who never wants to cross the water fund the bridge in their taxes ? OR should those who derive benefit from the bridge pay tolls to fund the build and maintenance of the bridge :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Also, intrigued how other NY'ers feel given the later comment from the author ...

While Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has generated controversy in New York by “pedestrianizing” a few areas like Times Square, many European cities have already closed vast areas to car traffic. Store owners in Zurich had worried that the closings would mean a drop in business, but that fear has proved unfounded, Mr. Fellmann said, because pedestrian traffic increased 30 to 40 percent where cars were banned.

So sounds like it woudl be a good tihng for the real people of New York - the businesses and the customers :)

[RacingManiac]

I don't mind having cars' access limited in big cities, provided that you have adequate public transit system to provide the alternative. I enjoyed my time visiting various cities with great subway/bus system that I can travel around without worrying about parking...When I visit NYC I make it a point to avoid driving....

Toronto's last mayor David Miller had his "war on cars" and added bike lane to some arterial route in downtown area that controls the traffic in and out of the city. But the issue with Toronto is our public transit really is not all that great. With limited subway access and reliance of railed street cars and buses that provides no benefit over driving as far as time gain as they stuck in traffic like the rest of us. At the same time they transit system at major commuter point on the outskirt of the city/suburb border has very little commuter support in terms of parking space, and that the city transit does not link up with the other municipal transit, incurring extra cost and against the convenience of using public system....The current mayor's main platform on election was the expansion of the subway system and abolishing some arterial bike path and relocating them to parallel, less congested side street. Which only makes sense....

But biker still whines....

[Ferrer]

I haven't read the article, but yes indeed Europe tends to favour public transports and bycicles, especially in big cities. We also have many toll roads, including the entire motorway network in France, Italy or Catalunya. This has its advantages (excellent and relatively cheap public transport) and disadvatanges (like the silly prolliferation of bycicles in some areas).

On the other hand we have high speed motorways and excellent country roads in which to enjoy our cars, so it's not all lost.

[RacingManiac]

Also something else to consider....cities like Toronto where maybe 6 month of the year is bike-friendly, and really 3-4 month for the casual rider....those lane will lay unused in winter....

[Matra et Alpine]

At least with the Italian toll roads it was once accepted by the police that if you paid a toll then they weren't going to be too concerned over fining you for speeding :)

Hope that is still the case as I'm off for a wee jaunt shortly :)

French toll roads never bothered me too much as the near parallel non-toll roads were in good condition, not overly congested and MUCH more fun to drive -- as long as you remmbered the Renault 4 van was likely to pull out of the side road right in front of you even if you were doing 60mph :)

Never done any serious driving on Spanish ( or Catalunyan :) ) roads Ferrer, so might pick your brains for a few worth making the trip for :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Also something else to consider....cities like Toronto where maybe 6 month of the year is bike-friendly, and really 3-4 month for the casual rider....those lane will lay unused in winter....

WOUdl hope they take that in to account and the bus lanes/biek lanes etc have flexibility ?

eg most of our "bus lanes" up here are time controlled. So outside of rush hour most of them switch back to multi-use. Is great way of overtaking dozy drivers who dont realise and leave me a free lane to drive most of the way in to edinburgh on - usually 10mph faster movign too :) :)

[Ferrer]

At least with the Italian toll roads it was once accepted by the police that if you paid a toll then they weren't going to be too concerned over fining you for speeding :)

Hope that is still the case as I'm off for a wee jaunt shortly :)
This is the case also here. Toll raods = (almost) no radars at all

I think by the way, that it is actually impossible to get a speeding ticket in Italy...

French toll roads never bothered me too much as the near parallel non-toll roads were in good condition, not overly congested and MUCH more fun to drive -- as long as you remmbered the Renault 4 van was likely to pull out of the side road right in front of you even if you were doing 60mph :)
Just experienced that in four days in a Tour de France. French people simply can't drive...

Never done any serious driving on Spanish ( or Catalunyan :) ) roads Ferrer, so might pick your brains for a few worth making the trip for :)
Whenever you want! :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Just experienced that in four days in a Tour de France. French people simply can't drive...
It's the archaic law.

"Prioritie a droite" :)

So no matter what road I'm turning OUT of or how fast the traffic is then I have priority being on your right hand side. I'm sure it made sense when it was horses and we were doing 10mph. but I always crap myself every time I'm on a main road and see a car sitting at a tiny single track road joining on my side :( You learn to accept that the older the car and the driver the more likely they will jsut turn out in front of you. Once you adapt to the style iot all becomes ok :)

[RacingManiac]

WOUdl hope they take that in to account and the bus lanes/biek lanes etc have flexibility ?

eg most of our "bus lanes" up here are time controlled. So outside of rush hour most of them switch back to multi-use. Is great way of overtaking dozy drivers who dont realise and leave me a free lane to drive most of the way in to edinburgh on - usually 10mph faster movign too :) :)

The lane they took out from one of the street to run bike in Toronto is a flex-lane, its a 5 lane street, where the middle lane can reverse direction based on hour of day and flow. Now they just made it into a bike lane. Consider the fact that they measured the flow of the bike lane(which increased the amount of rider 4x, from 200 something to 800 something a month), but the amount of car traffic remained the same(most drivers do not live in the city), the congestion got worse. Not sure what kind of volume they see in winter...

[Kitdy]

The lane they took out from one of the street to run bike in Toronto is a flex-lane, its a 5 lane street, where the middle lane can reverse direction based on hour of day and flow. Now they just made it into a bike lane. Consider the fact that they measured the flow of the bike lane(which increased the amount of rider 4x, from 200 something to 800 something a month), but the amount of car traffic remained the same(most drivers do not live in the city), the congestion got worse. Not sure what kind of volume they see in winter...

What road is that? I drive around TO a fair amount, but mostly the suburbs and major highways.

[Matra et Alpine]

From what you're saying RM it coudl be surmised that they took 600 cars a month off that road, whcih is good for pollution, costs and the safety of the 200 bike riders :)

Ooo, a whoel LANE given to bikers and only bikers ? Ah, that's different from here, we create "narrow lanes" for the bikes. So we can still get a bike lane and two traffic lanes in the "normal" city roads and on the narrower ones a bike lane and one traffic lane. So to be fair it doesnt' affect us, though very wide vehicles/trucks have to be careful at those as it's tight. But usually only in 30mph regions, some of whcih are likely to drop to 20 "for safety" :(

[RacingManiac]

From what you're saying RM it coudl be surmised that they took 600 cars a month off that road, whcih is good for pollution, costs and the safety of the 200 bike riders :)

Ooo, a whoel LANE given to bikers and only bikers ? Ah, that's different from here, we create "narrow lanes" for the bikes. So we can still get a bike lane and two traffic lanes in the "normal" city roads and on the narrower ones a bike lane and one traffic lane. So to be fair it doesnt' affect us, though very wide vehicles/trucks have to be careful at those as it's tight. But usually only in 30mph regions, some of whcih are likely to drop to 20 "for safety" :(

I don't think they took 600 cars off the road, more like attracting 600 more rider to use Jarvis street(that's for you Kitdy), as the car traffic did not decrease. People who otherwise can use the other road ended up using the bike lane. Which is good. But the same effect can be accomplished(and is being put into motion by the newly elected mayor) by moving the bike lane to the less utilized road parallel to the major arterial route. I don't understand what the sticking point is for the bike rider, if they get an dedicated lane either way, and by having it on the secondary road its safer for them as well....

[Kitdy]

It must be understood that out subway system is woefully inadequate.

Toronto had plans for several more highways through the city, and a bigger subway system, and neither was carried out.

Instead, we have a half-assed highway system, and a half-assed subway system.

As RM mentioned, biking is only reasonably 7 months of the year. As it stands, many roads lack bike lanes and so you have bicyclists occupying the right 1/4 or 1/3rd of the rightmost lane. This makes bicycling and driving very perilous.

I am not in favour of bicyclists being on the streets unless they have a dedicated lane.

As things stand in Toronto, downtown roads are perilous and extremely stressful for both bicyclists and motorists.

[Matra et Alpine]

Makes sense why it shodul NOT be on that road and moved to a minor one for the reasons given.

Good luck with that.

Regarding buildign new roads in cities it turns out Glasgow has just finished the most expensive road ( on a cost per mile basis ) !! All because it has to cross a river, cross over 150 year old railway routes, major routes in and out of the city that have existed for 400 years ( ok not tarmac back then :) ) and many 200+ year old buildings of significant historical value.

Explains why here we dont want to do any work on roads if we can avoud it and prefer to find a way ( no matter how painful ) to stop the growth of cars on the roads in the cities.

[Matra et Alpine]

so you have bicyclists occupying the right 1/4 or 1/3rd of the rightmost lane. This makes bicycling and driving very perilous.

Unless you copy us and dedicate that 1/4 to the cyclist and narrow the other lanes by a foot each :)

[Ferrer]

Ooo, a whoel LANE given to bikers and only bikers ? Ah, that's different from here, we create "narrow lanes" for the bikes.
But you've got to consider that bycicles need to go both ways so in the end they occupy a full normal lane anyway. Which mean less lanes for cars (or parking spaces, which is also annoying).

It's also worth mentioning that the public bycicle service (Bicing in Barcelona) also uses up space previously destined to cars (usually parking spaces).

[Matra et Alpine]

Well the 3 foot lanes are on the inside of both directions here Ferrer.
And by narrowing the main lanes it doesn't lost any lanes in reality.
In te UK lanes were standard widths and fine at 70mph you need a lot of space but at 30 mph it's a lot easier to stay within lane confines and travel alongside traffic in closer proximity.

So it works reasonably well.

Cant say for Barcelona's bikes, but here we can park 10 bikes where one car went. So it's not usually a big loss and in many cases where a wide pedestrian area exists the biek parking is at the building side of that space that woudl never be used for vars anywa.

[Ferrer]

Here it doesn't work at all, in my opinion.

Furthermore Barcelona is on a slope, so all people do is go downtown where all bycicle acumulate, and no one goes back up on again a bycicle, so we've got lots of vans going up and down the city to take all those bycicles up again.

Hardly ecological at all...

[TVR IS KING]

I'm wondering if that's the same issue in Europe and I wonder how the traffic is in Australia.
In Australia you ask? Our traffic is very good, by comparison. It does get congested a bit during peak times in certain areas, but that's hard to avoid.

Australia has the 7th least-dense population in the entire world, and our roads reflect this. Many, many people travel great distances from the countryside to the city every day to work, so we have a lot of 6-lane highways to carry this traffic. People want to drive big cars and not catch the train, and our roads let them do this.
The stuff I've seen about traffic in the UK is truly horrifying, I can't stand being stuck in traffic for 5 minutes! Most of my driving is at high-speed through countryside, it's great.

That said, I do catch public transport wherever possible. It's cheaper, and I live on public transport lines. Also, my 300ZX is my only car, and the less often I drive it the more I enjoy it.

[pimento]

WOUdl hope they take that in to account and the bus lanes/biek lanes etc have flexibility ?

eg most of our "bus lanes" up here are time controlled. So outside of rush hour most of them switch back to multi-use. Is great way of overtaking dozy drivers who dont realise and leave me a free lane to drive most of the way in to edinburgh on - usually 10mph faster movign too :) :)

Ditto here, it's great. Also bikers and cabbies can use bus lanes [not bus ONLY lanes]. I <3 bus lanes.

That said, most of the major roads in Sydney seem to be pretty poorly maintained and narrow, compared to Perth. The volume of traffic would be far greater, but then so should be the tax income and whatnot. Also I don't like that 'bikes have to pay the same toll as cars - shouldn't people be encouraged to ride to ease congestion? Still, free parking in the city is nice.

[Cobrafan427]

When i went to Philadelphia for a Flyers game, the worst part was actually getting into the city. I parked at the arena (only $5) on Broad St. and paid for an all day subway pass ($8) and that was it. Rode the subway to center city and walked around the rest of the day and didn't pay a dollar more for transportation and i still got to see the waterfront, Independence Hall, historical Philly and City Hall before catching the subway again and heading back to Broad St. Once the game was over, i only waited in traffic for 15 minutes at the most.

[franfran]

Australia has the 7th least-dense population in the entire world.

:eek:

[franfran]

Traffic in Sydney does get congested a during peak times. A trip that takes me about 55 minutes off peak can take around two hours during the peak. But it's not stop start all the way - there are parts of the trip where the traffic flows smoothly and other parts where it grinds to a halt. Off peak, things are usually pretty good. I wouldn't want to drive into the CBD though, although we have on occasions on weekends when we were staying in the city until late (i.e. after midnight). During the week I generally use public transport (unless I get a lift that is).

There are tolls on some of the motorways, a couple of bridges and some tunnels but, if you don't want to pay a toll there's always an alternative route available.

Melbourne traffic I found looks worse than Sydney's, but the traffic actually flows a lot better for some reason.

I have driven in the UK, but that was in Scotland and the only cities I drove in were Aberdeen and Dundee, so I didn't see much in the way of congestion....

[Matra et Alpine]

yeah it's all relative franfran.
Most Scots get annoyed if delayed by 10 mins in traffic :)
My kids think 20 cars in front of us is a queue !!

Having driven an 80 minute "commute" in the bay area on 6 lanes of highway 101 each way for a while what we get here doesn't bother me. THough I wouldn't take a job there again and live with that daily.

[coolieman1220]

When i went to Philadelphia for a Flyers game, the worst part was actually getting into the city. I parked at the arena (only $5) on Broad St. and paid for an all day subway pass ($8) and that was it. Rode the subway to center city and walked around the rest of the day and didn't pay a dollar more for transportation and i still got to see the waterfront, Independence Hall, historical Philly and City Hall before catching the subway again and heading back to Broad St. Once the game was over, i only waited in traffic for 15 minutes at the most.

yeah except when SEPTA stops running after midnight. that sucks majorly about philly....

[henk4]

yeah except when SEPTA stops running after midnight. that sucks majorly about philly....

those who can afford to stay out after midnight, also can afford a taxi. The majority of the people will be sound asleep by that time.

[Matra et Alpine]

With their pipe and slippers beside the bed, eh Pieter :)

IN all our cities, we have "late night" bus services which dont give as many routes as day but do genrally cover "radial" routes out to outlying towns and communities.

IIRC last one in Edinburgh is 4am ( and full bus service restarts at 6 anyway :) )

[Ferrer]

With their pipe and slippers beside the bed, eh Pieter :)

IN all our cities, we have "late night" bus services which dont give as many routes as day but do genrally cover "radial" routes out to outlying towns and communities.

IIRC last one in Edinburgh is 4am ( and full bus service restarts at 6 anyway :) )
We have a similar scheme in Barcelona.

[NSXType-R]

My major issue is the the mayor of NYC is in a technically illegal third term and the Department of Transportation is enacting all these useless bicycle lanes that barely anyone uses and increases congestion without the input of the neighborhoods.

Meanwhile, public transportation hasn't gotten any better.

I'm sorry a question about Europe's driving patterns turned into a rant about NYC traffic.

But back to Henk's question about cars taking up all the space in a city- if I had better public transportation options, I most certainly would take public transportation. I hate finding parking spots. But right now, no, our options are extremely limited and whatever options that exist are only marginally adequate.

[Matra et Alpine]

Could use a bike :)

[Matra et Alpine]

TO blance the "feel" of the thread that driving is discouraged over here then I present some of the best roads on the planet in the best scenery :)

Routes | Highland Caterham Hire, Caterham 7 sports car hire in the Highlands and Islands of Northern Scotland, great roads, spectacular scenery and so much FUN. (http://www.highlandcaterhamhire.co.uk/routes/)

Downside is our "midgies" which are TINY biting flying insects. Individual bites dont hurt much but they swarm in thousands/tens of thousands :( THIS year the climate has been ideal for them and suggestion is the peak is going to be 800 TIMES MORE than the average :(